Debate With an Australian Protestant on the Canon of Scripture - Jay Dyer

本站添加: 2026-06-02

[00:00:00]Yo.

[00:00:01]>> Hello. Hello.

[00:00:03]>> What's on your mind, dude?

[00:00:05]>> The cult leader himself.

[00:00:08]>> Mhm.

[00:00:08]>> I've been trying to get on to your show for 3 years.

[00:00:13]>> Well, it sounds like it sounds like it's cuz you got a jitterbug. Get off of grandma's phone and get your own Verizon plan.

[00:00:19]>> I got two questions.

[00:00:21]>> You're cutting out, so I don't know what you're saying.

[00:00:23]You waited 3 years and you called in with a damn jitterbug phone.

[00:00:28]Get off of ma me ma's Nokia, dude.

[00:00:33]Hello?

[00:00:36]>> Can you hear me okay?

[00:00:37]>> Yep.

[00:00:39]What's on your mind, son?

[00:00:40]>> Hello. Hello.

[00:00:42]>> Dude, you're going to have to get >> about scripture and tradition or Andrew Wilson's debate.

[00:00:47]>> Okay.

[00:00:49]Ask the question.

[00:00:51]>> I'd prefer to talk about scripture and tradition.

[00:00:53]>> Ask the question. Ask the question.

[00:00:58]>> Um so if Hold on. Let me >> Come on, dude. You waited 3 years to call in and this is what's going on?

[00:01:08]>> So if your ultimate tradition if your ultimate authority is scripture and tradition, if one contradicts the other one, which one trumps >> You're obviously in our paradigm that's not possible.

[00:01:19]>> Yeah, I thought that's how you'd answer it. But in my paradigm like you So let How about if we just think about it about it in a hypothetical? Can you do that or not?

[00:01:31]>> Uh if God doesn't exist, then what happens to your worldview? That's just asking me the same type of question.

[00:01:37]>> Yeah, obviously. Yeah, you can't go into a hypothetical that Yeah, you can't agree with, but But from my paradigm, I don't want to preach on your platform, but >> So look >> from my paradigm >> My response to this argument is always, yeah, but your own paradigm has within it paradigm level contradictions because scripture in many many many places uh directs you to extra scriptural tradition.

[00:02:03]>> Can you explain that?

[00:02:05]>> Um the opening statement in the Baptist guy debate that we just did. I did a 10-minute opening statement arguing that a whole position.

[00:02:15]>> I've never listened to your stuff. The only thing I've listened to was and I don't I don't really follow >> How have you been wait how So you've been trying to call in for 3 years, but you've never heard any of my stuff?

[00:02:24]>> I've never even clicked on your stream once. This is the very first time.

[00:02:27]>> you said you've been trying to call in for forever.

[00:02:31]>> Sorry, I listened to this stream. This is the very first time I've ever listened to you.

[00:02:34]>> You said earlier I've been trying to call in and you cut out.

[00:02:39]>> Sorry, I'm in out back in Australia.

[00:02:42]>> Okay.

[00:02:43]>> Um >> Regardless, uh I made uh a 10-minute opening statement arguing all of the places in scripture that direct you to extra scriptural tradition. For example, the canon itself is not in the scripture.

[00:02:57]>> Yep. Yep. Okay.

[00:03:00]So So uh like you're saying the church needs to establish the canon kind of kind of um argument >> No, I didn't say it needs to. I said that the argument is that the only way to know what the text authorship are is are and the only way to know that there is a completed canon is the testimony and tradition of the church. You don't have a time machine. You don't have the autographa, right? Do you have autographa?

[00:03:26]>> No.

[00:03:27]>> Okay, so how do you know how do you know which >> stand and then God reveals it.

[00:03:30]>> How do you know How do you know which epistles Paul actually wrote and didn't write because there were a bunch of pseudepigrapha?

[00:03:40]>> Uh I'm not following. Sorry.

[00:03:43]I'm an amateur. This is amateur hour.

[00:03:44]I'm an amateur. So uh you're going to have to talk to me like that.

[00:03:49]>> How do you know which Paul which epistles Paul actually did and did not write since the since there are many apostolic pseudepigrapha which is like uh books that have the name of an apostle.

[00:04:02]>> I would both agree with Paul's writings anyway.

[00:04:05]>> Did you not hear the question?

[00:04:09]>> Maybe I didn't, but I was thinking through it and saying even your position and my position as a reformed >> That's a fallacy that has nothing to do with how you know the fact that we agree has nothing to do with this question.

[00:04:20]That that's literally irrelevant.

[00:04:22]>> I'm following now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:04:23]>> How do you know which >> How do I know that Paul's writings is God's word?

[00:04:28]>> No.

[00:04:29]Good God, man.

[00:04:31]I'm sorry, man. I'm I'm trying really to be patient with people. Let me make the argument for the fourth time. Stop interrupting. Gosh, please. How do you know which ones are actually written by Paul and which ones aren't the fake Paul letters?

[00:04:49]>> I'll have to think about that a little bit more.

[00:04:51]>> The only way I'm going to answer for I'm sorry, man. I'm going to I'm going to have to let you go. I'm going to have to let you go cuz I'm going to lose patience and then everyone's going to get mad and say that I'm mean.

[00:04:59]Pseudepigrapha are ancient texts in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth century that have the names of all kinds of people. The Gospel of Thomas, Protoevangelium of James, right? There are all kinds of them.

[00:05:11]There's a giant volume in the church father's set of pseudepigrapha.

[00:05:19]How do you know which ones are authentic and which ones are not?

[00:05:24]Now, you can say, "Oh, textual scholarship." That's not going to help you because Protestant textual scholars are a bunch of libs nowadays for the most part, 95% and they don't believe these texts anyway. So, textual studies and textual scholars is not going to help you as an individual Protestant today determine the authenticity of various epistles and letters.

[00:05:48]And guess what? You're going to go read now F. F. Bruce's book. You're going to go read Lee McDonald's book, Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon.

[00:05:58]Or you're going to read the New Testament introduction by Vinkenhauser.

[00:06:03]And you're going to see all of these books admit the inescapable essential role of church tradition in the canon of scripture. And then you're going to realize that oh, sola scriptura is actually [ __ ]