Inside South Africa’s Anti-Immigrant Protests: South African & Nigerian Voices Call In

追加: 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]Something big is happening in South Africa right now. Huge crowds stormed through streets and cities across the country which some media outlets like Sky News described as a war on foreigners.

[00:00:11]>> Feels like a witch hunt. They keep pointing out people that they think may be foreign and then attacking them. We just saw a man get tasered on the side of the street.

[00:00:20]>> In fact, African migrant shop owners were warned by police to close down ahead of these anti-illegal immigration protests out of precaution for their safety. So, what the hell is going on?

[00:00:30]Protesters say that foreigners from other African countries are taking away jobs, health care, housing, and businesses from the locals.

[00:00:38]>> I'm unemployed. There's no employment.

[00:00:40]You can't find anything. Now, we are focusing on the illegal foreign national.

[00:00:45]>> But it's not only around jobs in the economy. Local media report that earlier this month, a 27-year-old shop owner went missing amid concerns that his alleged refusal to sell his business to foreign nationals may have led to his disappearance. [music] This triggered outrage and has caused the illegal immigration issue in the country to reach its boiling point. And now even the United Nations is calling for calm. Critics are calling this a xenophobic movement. While supporters say this isn't about discrimination, but about protecting their country. So, as always, what do you guys think?

[00:01:28][music] >> Hello everyone. Welcome to the Ladies of Sosa podcast. My name is Sada >> and my name is Christine. Today we're going to be discussing the rising tensions in South Africa between the local South Africans and um migrant black Africans that are moving to South Africa, whether it's for work or leisure. Um there's been an uptick of xenophobia, I guess you can say, in the country.

[00:01:53]>> [music] >> and we have um somebody from Nigeria who has been in South Africa who can kind of speak truly to the experience and maybe give us a little bit more background [music] and then hopefully we're going to have a South African voice as well to kind of [music] balance out the the conversation and the perspective and we're also going to give our perspective as well as um [music] Africans who want to see the continent move forward because it it it hurts us to see our people struggling also [music] in our own continent. And so we're going to be discussing that. And Christine, anything else? [music] >> So we have a small panel. It's a packed studio, y'all. And it's hot. So if you see us fanning, I really have to address the elements. [laughter] It is hot.

[00:02:35]>> I'm burning up. So [music] um, we have a small panel for this episode. So I'll go ahead and start from the left and move our way around with Willie. Go ahead and introduce yourself.

[00:02:44]>> Hello [music] everyone. This is Willie.

[00:02:46]Glad to be back.

[00:02:48]>> Yes. It's been a minute. Where you been, Willie?

[00:02:49]>> Welcome.

[00:02:50]>> Why you been hiding from us? man. Life busy, you know.

[00:02:53]>> Okay, we're happy to have you. [music] And then we have Vaida.

[00:02:57]>> Hi everyone, it's Vita. Happy to be here.

[00:03:01]And we have Mr. Late as hell. I'm sorry.

[00:03:03]>> That just started.

[00:03:05]>> Hi everyone.

[00:03:07]>> Um, and we have the ladies of the couch, but they are going to, you know, come in and out. So, [music] for now, we're going to go ahead and >> Yeah, we have like five people.

[00:03:16]>> We have a lot of people in here, which is good. Which is good. We need the support watching. You know, it's a packed house.

[00:03:21]>> Yes. And let's go ahead and introduce the people on Zoom who are here virtually.

[00:03:25]>> Yes.

[00:03:26]>> Hello.

[00:03:27]>> Hi.

[00:03:28]>> How are you?

[00:03:30]>> I'm good. How are you guys?

[00:03:31]>> Great. Great. Please tell us your name and where you're from and um just a little bit about yourself.

[00:03:38]>> Sure. Um yeah, I guess [music] for this uh for this show it's okay. I'll just go by RSA.

[00:03:45]>> Okay. I am a South African uh uh citizen born and raised so are my parents and I'm a student uh doing my master's degree.

[00:03:56]>> Oh, okay. You amazing. What are you getting your master's degree in?

[00:04:00]>> Uh in chemistry.

[00:04:03]>> Okay. Nice. Okay. Okay. Great. Great.

[00:04:05]Great. Great. So you you live in South Africa. What part of South Africa?

[00:04:11]>> Uh Ptoria the capital.

[00:04:14]>> Okay. Cool. So, we definitely want to kind of get your input. Um, but before that, I guess let's kind of let's kind of get into like, you know, the intro of the topic and the conversation.

[00:04:27]>> And so, >> South Africa, we've seen online that there's been um like African migrants, African people who live there are being pushed out of hospitals. They're being physically assaulted. There's been um you know what? We actually have clips.

[00:04:48]>> These South African protesters want undocumented African migrants out of their country. Recent protests against illegal migration have [music] taken place in several cities. Demonstrators want the migrants to leave, saying their jobs should go to [music] South African citizens and accusing them of dealing drugs and other criminal acts.

[00:05:05]>> Some of them are mercenaries from other countries. Some of them are running away from persecution for serious crimes. But our government doesn't seem to think that is important enough. They think that dealing with xenophobia is more important than um dealing with this issue of our lives being in danger.

[00:05:20]>> Officials in both Nigeria and Ghana have made formal complaints [music] to the South African government about recent anti-migrant incidents. Several other African governments including Zimbabwe, [music] Malawi, Kenya, and Lutu have warned the citizens in South Africa to [music] be vigilant. The South African government has condemned violence during the protests, but says there are legitimate concerns about illegal migration.

[00:05:42]>> South Africa has [music] laws that must be respected, that must be abided to by all citizens and non-citizens. And we're saying those who are undocumented must do the right thing.

[00:05:57]>> South Africa's unemployment rate is above 30% and is a major driver of worker frustration [music] and political tension. But the unemployment rates are even higher in some neighboring countries, which [music] means South Africa remains an attractive option for many in the region.

[00:06:12]>> If they feared for their lives, they wouldn't be here. Remember, they left their countries because they feared for their lives, didn't they? Now, if they fear for their lives, what's stopping them from going to the next country? Why are they still fighting to be in South Africa? If you fear for your life and you are an immigrant, this is the best time to go back home. And if you fear for your life, you ran away from your country because you fear for your life.

[00:06:30]Why are you fighting in South Africa?

[00:06:32]What are you fighting for? cuz not your country. Go back and fight in your country or find another country to go to. We also have our own problems now.

[00:06:39]But many problems.

[00:06:55]Home Affairs and the police have got to come together and have got to ensure that uh these organizations don't start going around as they have been doing in Johannesburg and demanding documentation from people and from migrants. This is unlawful. It's illegal. And in fact, we have a court case uh as CACs that we won in the high court here in Haeng uh just last year that prevents uh the these groups from doing these things.

[00:07:24]If you know yourself that you're not South African, please stand up. Please stand up. Please don't try and stand up right now. Stand up. Are you certificate?

[00:07:34]Are you significant? Cuz we are going to check everybody.

[00:07:38]Check them.

[00:07:40]Please come. Come.

[00:07:56]South African go out go If you know yourself, ALL THESE NURSES AND DOCTORS, THEY ARE HERE FOR SOUTH AFRICANS.

[00:08:33]PLEASE STAND UP. DON'T TRY US.

[00:08:47]for [cheering] everybody who's [laughter] pushep forever.

[00:09:25]Amen.

[00:09:27]Ladies and gentlemen, [cheering] Let's sing.

[00:10:17]We're looking for context. Obviously, we're state side. We don't really know.

[00:10:21]We're just seeing clips online. Can you give us a little bit of background of what's taking place since you're physically on the ground there? Because it's one thing to go based off of videos online or, you know, rhetoric online, but can you just tell us what's currently taking place?

[00:10:33]>> Um, I just No problem. Well, yeah.

[00:10:36]>> Where did it start? What what how did this even inception >> synopsis like a quick summary?

[00:10:43]>> Okay. Um, so I'm one of the reasons why I came out to provide more nuance because I think seeing it as like, oh, South Africans are xenophobic. They are just abusing other Africans.

[00:10:56]>> Um, most of the people that are fighting it represents a specific demographic.

[00:11:01]>> Okay. So it represents the weakest economically amongst us because um okay fine those are the most of the people that are fighting. Um I I think at the top of it like in the beginning I'll just have to say that um obviously most people in the country condemn the brutality and um it it doesn't represent us well but it's been happening for so long. has been boiling uh for a long time. And >> if I'm to go to where it started where it starts from or rather where it stems from, it's it stems from um the weakest amongst us economically not want you to compete on the same playing field with um uh people who are not citizens.

[00:11:51]Um um cuz you know >> so I I have a question. Okay. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:11:59]>> Sure.

[00:12:00]>> Go ahead.

[00:12:01]>> Being a South African, I think most of most of the world does not understand um how the the our constitution is set up.

[00:12:10]I would say that South Africa has one of if not the uh most uh liberal and panafricanist constitutions.

[00:12:21]Um so why I say that? um apart from Ghana if you look at what Ghana has been doing recently. I mean sure they've made steps and so maybe second arguably to Ghana but what I'm saying is South Africa is a country that provides free healthcare free health care to its citizens and people who are not citizens. Not only does it provide free healthcare, it explic explicitly says that even if you are not uh even if you're an illegal citizen or rather what is it? If you enter the country illegally, basically your legal uh status in the country cannot be questioned. If you are a human, an African, you have access to the free healthcare. It says the same thing in education. So what you have is um people who are are coming in from all over the continent which is a good thing but then these people end up competing cuz the people who are not uh are living in these areas where the economically weak amongst us are they they they're not going through this. So what happens is people are tired of competing on the same playing field uh uh with people who are not citizens. And this frustration it comes from the government not feeling like the government is not doing enough to protect them and give them an advantage. Because when you look at these social institutions like hospitals, schools, I'm sorry to say unless you're here, you can truly see how it's not even predominantly South Africans. And you get and people also don't understand sorry I guess this is the last thing I'll say people don't understand the media in South Africa there are documentaries there are things that go viral where you see um doctors complaining about the workload and how they had like long shifts dealing with people who did not have documents which you know the government allows and the constitution accepts because the constitution was set up to be panafrican South Africans was one of South Africa was one of the countries to be uh liberated from um to to to get independence and it was supported by the African countries. So I understand why that that was the goal. But um the media uh in in South Africa it shows a lot of these things these things that go viral from people abusing the system usually the African migrants and that's what that is what keeps tensions uh boiling and that's how we reach this point.

[00:14:51]Again I don't condone it especially when it's brutality against Africans. And I think most South Africans agree with me when I say this. It's it's it's disheartening for us as well. It's black people at the end of the day.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah.

[00:15:02]>> But um yeah, but uh this is what happens is uh media in South Africa, things that go viral and the reality that is people who are the weakest economically want to feel like the government is giving them advantage.

[00:15:18]>> Would it be >> over?

[00:15:20]Would it be fair to say that maybe like black migrants are being used like as a scapegoat and you know and that's not that's not unique to South Africa? I feel like even in America, people blame a lot of their issues on immigrants and um >> Yeah, but >> or how how would you because I know it's it's more nuanced, but I I I love that you were having a perspective from somebody that's in South Africa.

[00:15:44]of of course and and like you said, but then in in in in it happens everywhere, but usually this tactic does not work if the if people are not in a in a if they're not having economic hardships.

[00:15:59]This strategy does not work cuz like whatever the more the marrier there's plenty of resources to go around. Now when there's the li when the resources are limited that's when you see the complaints because when it's when it comes to that level it becomes more tribal.

[00:16:12]>> Gotcha. And that's what we've seen in South Africa for 30 years. This thing has been happening. We've been having everyone come. South Africa is the hub of Africa. I know I don't think anyone any there's no African country that can say they have a more diverse uh h um spectrum of African nationals than South Africa. So how can South Africa be be be uh tagged as the xenophobic country when for 30 years it has been the home of Africa and has opened its doors to all Africans regardless of their legal status and has provided free healthcare, free education, everything. I mean come on guys.

[00:16:47]>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, for sure.

[00:16:49]>> I definitely didn't know about the um free education and free healthcare aspect of it because I saw >> there's no African country that does that.

[00:16:56]>> Right. Right. That that makes sense. I saw a video though where a guy went into the hospital and he was saying um basically telling the nursing staff and like the hospital staff to stabilize all the patients but if they're not South African then they have to be >> and I want I want to show the video so that the audience can actually see in real in real >> but I do want to get final comments because we have another guest that's coming on. So just uh is there anything that you want to add to the conversation or anything that you feel like is important for people to know cuz everyone's just going based off of the video. So >> yeah, the videos obviously they frame a specific narrative and it's true, right?

[00:17:35]There's nothing that can justify something as >> you know dehumanizing as as as that. Um the problem not the problem but another side of the story is the fact that the viral the viral vid the videos that go viral in South Africa that's that get as we see okay let me say this see how these videos um I get you guys as non-sfricans like going like what is going on this is not right obviously there are videos where that get South Africans going like this is not right why is this happening in my country those are the videos that are not shown the videos and documentaries where we have uh women from neighboring countries specifically I'll say Zimbabwe where they you know they leave their countries uh wait until they get there's a there's a whole documentary that was shot about Zimbabwe women getting pregnant in their country waiting until they about to give birth and then they come into South Africa in buses because they know that uh effectively the best healthcare that they can get is in South Africa. So there are things like that that don't that won't go viral that truly truly go viral and upset a lot of South Africans.

[00:18:45]>> Yeah.

[00:18:45]>> Uh with education, same things like that. So those videos won't be shown by you guys and I understand.

[00:18:52]>> Um >> Oh no, we'll show you. You've given us context so people will hear what you're saying. That's what's important.

[00:18:57]>> Yes. And this and this show is not live.

[00:18:59]So we'll actually if you if you don't mind even we'll look for those videos.

[00:19:02]>> You can DM us some clips. We will definitely include in episode >> editing. Yeah. We want to add we want to include both sides and like Christine said I didn't know about the free healthcare in um South Africa and education in the education because that does add context as to like why people would be competing for resources when people would want to would want to take advantage of um those you know those those things like free healthcare free um you know initiatives. So >> especially in Africa.

[00:19:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't I I I don't want to be put in the videos cuz I don't want it to be like an emotional response cuz then it's going to be like you see I'm it's going to be like this justifies that and this whatever. I think the main thing that I want to say is one of the main problems is the immigration system in South Africa. There's no country that does this. They are I mean it countries some universities do you know some universities have different fees for international students. South Africa literally doesn't that doesn't do that especially if you're an African. Yeah.

[00:19:58]>> Speaking of education, can you speak on how because you say you are, you know, you were raised in South Africa. You're from South Africa. So I assume you were educated in South Africa. So what is the education surrounding immigration? Like how >> how has that been social like how have students in South Africa been socialized to feel about immigration? because I'm trying to understand where does the xenophobia come from from the people that are on that um side of the spectrum.

[00:20:30]>> That's a good question.

[00:20:32]>> Okay. Where in Africa? I don't understand the question fully. I'm trying to [clears throat] just understand like when it comes to attitudes about Africans from other countries, how in school um in your experience um how are students socialized to feel about immigrants coming to their country? Are they integrated well or >> what's that like?

[00:20:59]>> And I'll add another layer to that to that question. Is it like a class thing?

[00:21:04]Because I know you said it's not everywhere. It's like certain areas is it like >> it's predominantly a trusted. Yes. Okay.

[00:21:10]Because if I am middle class I'm not competing. I've never I've been to a in a state hospital for three four times in my life. I go I'll go to private healthcare with people who can afford it. And if there's a migrant there book an appointment to see a black doctor who's doing well for herself or himself.

[00:21:31]The people who suffer the most are the people who have to stand in lines in their own country and be and have to comp compete for attention with people who just came in the country 5 minutes ago. That's the sentence.

[00:21:43]>> I have a question.

[00:21:44]>> So it's not about Yes sir.

[00:21:46]>> Um so obviously um my question is since you're there um why do the people feel like they need to take things into their own hand? What's the government doing?

[00:21:58]>> Is a government exploiting the situation like why are they not solving the issue?

[00:22:04]>> The government has its stance. It st is if you are African, you get free healthcare and you get free uh education and the government supports you regardless of your legal status. Now, if you're poor and you're tired of not being supported and you feel like why am I on the same level and treated the same as the immigrants? Because essentially you are.

[00:22:26]That's where people when these people frustration onto their own hands.

[00:22:30]>> When the when the people bring these issues to their to the politicians, what do the politicians say? Do they say we can't do anything about it or >> or do the cults support like if they if they're seeing this is a problem.

[00:22:41]>> I feel like this is like a very complicated.

[00:22:43]>> It depends.

[00:22:43]>> Yeah.

[00:22:44]>> They might use them. They might use them as a scapegoat.

[00:22:47]>> Yes. So So there are the scapegoat thing. So there will be politicians who [laughter] will use that as a scape.

[00:22:54]>> No, fine. It's a thing, but it's not really. There are people who will use that as a scape. No, no, no shade. No shade, sir. Please. There are people, it depends. There are politicians who are there and they're going to be like, "Okay, I'm going to make this my campaign. I'm going to address this issue because I can see it's a critical issue." But there are ones who are standing firm like, "No, this is an anti- what Nelson Mandela stood for. If you're an African, you should have this.

[00:23:17]These are human rights and these people listen we all African countries contributed to South Africa being an independent uh sovereign country during colonialism. I mean I mean that's a fact there's no one who can deny that. So it depends on the politician. So so you see this what happens and then what happens is uh things don't change on paper and then the South Africans start to do this. But notice this the South Africans who are doing this are people who have nothing to lose. Respectfully, my father will never be going around attacking migrants, >> right? He has a >> so it is a very much like a like a class thing because from my re from my understanding it's only happens in certain areas and it's more so like um you know like the townships where people are competing for resources >> and yes so thank well thank you so much for your contribution to the conversation like you really did add a lot of nuance to it and we really needed your voice honestly we needed a South African person to speak to this because our goal was not to attack. We just wanted to understand. So, um, we really just wanted to understand and see what was going on. It's not an attack because we all have our have our issues in Africa. Like, if we go even if we talk about South Sudan, there's things that we we're doing wrong or there's something there's questions. Yes, [laughter] there's questions that would need to be had. So, it's not about an attack on South Africa. Um, I I want to go to South Africa. Actually, I can't wait to go to South.

[00:24:43]>> I was actually born in Zimbabwe. So, >> Oh, yes. Christine was born in Zimbabwe.

[00:24:48]>> Uhhuh. Go ahead. Shout outs. Shout outs.

[00:24:50]Um, I just want to say the last thing.

[00:24:52]>> Uhhuh.

[00:24:53]>> Um, >> I want to say this as a as a as a Panaffricanist.

[00:24:59]>> I don't understand as Africans what we're doing when it comes to cuz I'm focusing on these on these institutions, healthcare and education.

[00:25:08]The every time I have this debate with my, you know, my other African brothers, my critic, my criticism to them is this.

[00:25:17]We have a country like South Africa that offers free healthcare for everyone. No problem in education.

[00:25:22]>> I don't understand how >> ah man I don't know how to sound how to say this without sounding like >> name shifting.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. Go [laughter] ahead.

[00:25:33]>> I don't understand how >> I don't understand how you have I'll say raw going raw. I don't understand how you have the the look at I don't understand how the NHS can successfully recruit so many other doctors from all over Africa and those countries have struggling healthare systems literally the African countries right now that have a shortage of healthare workers and and and doctors and nurses and yet and they're going to work in another country in America in Europe Europe yet their countries health care systems are like in the like come on. So South Africa is the country that's offering free healthcare for everyone for for for for for all the Africans. Yet in their home countries their own doctors are leaving and living the prosperous lives and building health care systems and other social institutions of other countries.

[00:26:35]And yet South Africa is the anti-African xenophobic country.

[00:26:39]I mean like >> what are we even talking about?

[00:26:41]>> That does add a different like perspective and layer to it. Honestly, I think and the conversation is nuance. It is nuance. It's not just it's just not black and white, you know? It's there's a lot of conversation to be had. So, thank you so much. Um >> yes, thank you RSA for joining and giving this context because we always try to be fair and balanced and obviously if we just do it ourselves based off of what we're seeing online, it's going to be a lot of >> we're so shocked. We can't believe they're doing this outside looking in.

[00:27:11]>> But um really there's frustration from the peopleing, >> but you did you added you added context to the situation. Not condoning any violence or anything to any African person, but you added context as to why there's growing frustrations, which is exactly why we wanted to have the conversation. So >> yeah, thank you so much. Appreciate you.

[00:27:30]>> Thank you. We can't wait to see you in the in the comments.

[00:27:33]>> Next time we want you to cam up.

[00:27:34]>> Yes, we need the camera on. We need you.

[00:27:36]We need you on the panel again.

[00:27:40]He said, "Hell no." [laughter] All right. Bye. Thank you so much.

[00:27:44]>> Is Chi on or do we need a >> Yeah.

[00:27:47]>> Oh, Ch's on. Okay. Let's Let's bring >> Hey, guys.

[00:27:49]>> Hi, Chi. Hi, Chi. How are we doing today?

[00:27:52]>> Good. How are you?

[00:27:54]>> I'm great. I'm I'm solid.

[00:27:56]>> Okay. I hope you a lot of that. Did you catch anything?

[00:27:59]>> I heard I heard that. I heard that.

[00:28:01]>> Okay. It doesn't sound like you was feeling it, but >> No, [clears throat] I'm not feeling it.

[00:28:04]>> You're not feeling it? Okay. So that's why we're here. That's why we need to have a a a separate conversation. So let's kind of like bring it back again.

[00:28:12]Um >> you know, there's been growing growing tensions um in South Africa between migrant black immigrants or migrants and the local um black South Africans. This has been happening for a long time. Um it's I I thought it was recent, but it's actually been happening since the '9s.

[00:28:30]>> It's been happening. Yeah. They they do it every so often.

[00:28:34]>> Yeah. So I and I didn't know that. So I had to actually like, you know, like do my research and realize this is not just a recent thing. This has always been happening. Um and I I thought that it was originally towards um West Africans, but it's actually towards every black minor.

[00:28:49]>> No, it was it's the first the first So I'm going to I'm going to level set with some history. And the reason why I feel comfortable talking about this is because >> I have my undergraduate degree is in political science and then my master's degree, I think you guys know, is in artificial intelligence. But I'm spec specifically focused on African governance and the intersections between artificial intelligence and African governance. So this is kind of >> real quick just give us uh we already interviewed before you before so all of the loyal supporters they already know you but can you just introduce yourself your background just to give context from the perspective you're coming from.

[00:29:22]>> And real quick just real quick to Spider when they're their screen is blank. Are you having the Can you have the camera on us if you don't mind? Cuz yeah if you don't mind cuz Yeah. for the viewers.

[00:29:33]Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Chi. Go ahead, Chi.

[00:29:35]>> Okay, so my name is Chinmer Onuku. I am an IT uh consultant based out of the Midwest in Ohio. Um I am a Nigerian American born in America. I have been to South Africa. I've uh tried multiple times to start doing business in South Africa to some chagrin. Um, my educational background, I'm currently a master's candidate at Cambridge. I'm studying artificial intelligence, policy, ethics with a specific focus on African governance. My undergraduate degree is in political science and uh, public administration.

[00:30:15]>> Perfect. Okay. Thank you so much for that um, introduction and context and then you can just go ahead with whatever you were already saying.

[00:30:21]>> Yeah. How do you feel? Raw emotions.

[00:30:23]>> So, no, not raw emotions. I'm really It makes me this the situation makes me sad.

[00:30:28]>> Yeah.

[00:30:29]>> Um it makes me sad because it's unnecessary >> and I'm I'm I'm of the mind that there is dark money in South Africa that is supporting these efforts. And why do I say that? I say that because the people that are in the streets of this current this current movement is a continuation of a movement that started in 2000 uh 2015 operation I'm probably going to say it wrong duala >> um a lot of disenfranchised South Africans are directing their energy towards the most vulnerable people in their society and they're going to say that these people are taking their jobs.

[00:31:12]But I'm going to bring some data, right?

[00:31:15]And and even in what they say, there's always there's a shifting narrative.

[00:31:18]First is these people are are criminals.

[00:31:21]They're coming in, they're infesting our communities with crime. Then you'll hear somebody say that these people are taking our women >> from us.

[00:31:29]>> I heard that.

[00:31:30]>> Then you hear people that saying that these people are taking our jobs.

[00:31:35]They're taking our resources. They don't even know why they're doing like there's not a set reason as to why they're doing it. It's just this is like the fermented anger of an underclass of people. But why are they an underclass? So let's focus on jobs, right? So South Africa has a youth unemployment rate that is approaching 60%. 60% of youth in South Africa are jobless. The situation is dire. The actual unemployment rate is around 35%.

[00:32:06]Okay, I've been to South Africa. Let me tell you guys, when you go to South Africa, the wealth divide in that country is so palpable, it will make you shake.

[00:32:17]So, let's use Cape Town for example.

[00:32:19]When you fly into Cape Town, you leave the airport, you move towards the city, the central business district of Cape Town, you will pass this area, this informal settlement that goes as far as the eye can see. When you talk like uh Mufasa says everything the light touches is yours. Don't go to that dark place. That's like what you're seeing is just informal settlements >> shacks.

[00:32:44]>> Then as soon as you get around the mountain, >> you will see >> what could be Santorini. It could be Greece. It could be anything. It's it's the the the wealth divide in South Africa is the worst on the continent.

[00:32:58]And there are places on the continent that are visibly poorer than South Africa. So you have these group you have a group of people mostly black South Africans that are living in abject poverty but they are walking amongst and they're surrounded by some of the most wealth in the world. Cape Town is a global hub of wealth right?

[00:33:22]>> Yeah. So >> if you're telling me that a population of of foreigners occupy maybe 4% of the popul the whole population of South Africa and the youth unemployment rate is approaching 60%. And the uh um the general unemployment rate is above 30%.

[00:33:41]The math doesn't math there. It doesn't make any sense. How can I take your jobs when there are more of you unemployed than there are of us in general? It doesn't make sense. Then when you and you can go to the South African uh justice system on the website, you can see these. You can go, okay, let's talk about crime. Crime in South Africa is some of the worst on the continent, but also the world. None of this I'm saying is like false. You can objectively go on Google right now.

[00:34:13]>> Oh no.

[00:34:13]>> South Africa.

[00:34:14]>> South Africa has some of the worst crime in the world. Some of the worst crime than Afghanistan. some of the worst crime than active military zones right now. That's South Africa. So I've pointed to you two systemic problems.

[00:34:28]I've pointed out that South Africa has a crime problem and and I'll ground that in more. So like if you look at the if you go to the South African justice website, you'll see okay how many how many foreign nationals are in jails like convicted criminals, it's around 15%. So 85% of the crime in South Africa is conducted by South Africans. So, okay, you say they're 4% of the population that do 15% of the convictions. That's an oversampling, but it's not the prevailing narrative of crime in your country. We can talk about uh uh gender-based violence in South Africa is the some of the worst in the world. So chi, so essentially you're saying there's no possible way that um African migrants are like >> African migrants aren't the it's a lazy rhetoric. It's a it's it's I'm not even saying that >> yes, it's a it's a scapegoat. And it's I'm not even saying that African migrants aren't doing anything.

[00:35:30]>> I'm saying that >> the the the root of the problems Yes. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add it doesn't add up.

[00:35:39]>> And from my understanding is that a lot of these issues or a lot of this um like how they are treating African migrants is rooted in apartheid like the history of apartheid.

[00:35:51]>> Thank you. Let's go to the history of apartheid. Yes.

[00:35:54]>> So, so during apartheid and this is very interesting. This is why I'm sad. I'm not even upset because I have I have bones to pick with South Africa because of how I was treated when I was there.

[00:36:05]But I'm not going to hear about that.

[00:36:08]>> Yeah, >> that doesn't bother me as much. During a part tide, the the uh minority white minority government passed these what they call pass laws. So in South Africa, as a black South African during South um apartheid, you had to get a pass to enter certain parts of the country.

[00:36:28]They track these people. If you wanted to go to a nice area, they come and check your thing. Are you allowed to be here?

[00:36:35]>> And sometimes you needed um you needed like a passport to even get to get around white majority areas.

[00:36:42]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. So now this is not even apartheid. People talk about apartheid as something that was kind of okay, it happened. But apartheid, the the the Dutch landed in South Africa in the in the 1600s. From that point in time, they have been oppressing South Africans.

[00:37:03]Then the British came and took over and carried that through, right? And there were negotiations between the British and the Dutch as to what to do with this wealth that was acquired. and they basically settled amongst themselves as white people and said, "You know what?

[00:37:19]You guys get to keep this land. We'll be over here." And then the black South African majority, we're going to handle them as if they're livestock. So now you fast forward to the Lord's year of 2026 in 20th century in general and you have South Africans conducting the same practices that they learned from their oppressors.

[00:37:38]>> This is what that is.

[00:37:39]>> G, I have a question. So, what would you be what what would uh your response be to what?

[00:37:45]>> Hold on. Hold on. Dude, you already had time, man. Why are you still on here?

[00:37:50]Sorry, Chi.

[00:37:52]>> Wait, what?

[00:37:53]>> A dude's still on here trying to talk.

[00:37:55]>> I mean, he could I mean, I'm I'm your time.

[00:37:59]>> Yeah, we we'll if we need to, we'll do a followup, but yeah, we're we're doing one person at a time. So, >> sorry.

[00:38:06]>> Yeah.

[00:38:06]>> No, no. Um, I was going to I was going to say, uh, Chi, um, what would be your I didn't know RC.

[00:38:11]>> Oh, somebody tried. Oh, he tried to come back. Okay. Sorry, you're the responding, but uh, but >> I don't I don't mind. I don't mind this.

[00:38:19][laughter] I start Let's not argue. Let's not fight. Okay.

[00:38:23]No, I was going to I was going to ask on behalf of RSA like to what would you say about um cuz see uh you RSA is painting a picture of um of South Africa as this place that you know every all the Africans are are moving to and you're painting on um an image.

[00:38:40]>> Do you know that?

[00:38:41]>> Let me let me hold >> Let me finish my question. Let me finish my question. So um and then and then like correctly you're pointing out all these issues that South Africa is having high unemployment, crime, you know. Um so what would be your response about uh why are Africans still moving there and overwhelming their system?

[00:39:04]>> Okay, I will always say this because this isn't the first time South Africans has brought this up. for some reason they think that they handle Kenya handles more refugees and migrants than South Africa by a lot.

[00:39:18]So when we talk about overwhelming a system when you are directing your angst and anger for a system towards migrants instead of people who you've elected to manage and administer the system, you've lost your way.

[00:39:37]That's my that is my conversation.

[00:39:41]You if you feel like your borders are not secure, you go talk to Ramaposa, you talk to the home uh affairs, you talk to the uh minister of exterior and you say, "Hey, secure our borders." You don't go and take your grandfather's shield and his spear and run in the streets and start striking down people who you do not know if there's they they've beat up other South Africans over this.

[00:40:11]>> You know what, Chi, we got to hear your experience.

[00:40:13]>> No, that's what I really want to get to.

[00:40:15]Can you give us a firsthand account of what you >> Yes, I can give you Yes, cuz you went to South Africa and you loved South Africa.

[00:40:22]>> I went to I I absolutely and this is the thing. So I don't want any South African listening to this South Africa as a Nigerian in South Africa. So I went to South Africa a couple years ago because I my firm I was pitching an expansion an African expansion for the firm.

[00:40:36]>> Oh they definitely don't like you know you businessman.

[00:40:38]>> So so I said I said there are three there are four markets that we can go into. I said we can go to Nigeria, we can go to Ghana, we can go to South Africa, we can go to Kenya. So I said I I I did a pitch on like a presentation and we already canceled out Nigeria because of currency uh currency fluctuations. So I I and then we assessed Ghana and we said uh Ghana doesn't have the talent we're necessarily looking for.

[00:41:11]>> So the goal the left on the board was South Africa and left on the board was Kenya. So I went to I went to South Africa to meet with uh technical talent there and to see if we're going to Greenfield which is like start from scratch or we're going to acquire an existing IT firm.

[00:41:29]>> So went to South Africa, landed Johannesburg.

[00:41:32]>> Yeah.

[00:41:33]>> Love Johannesburg down. It was cool. But I'm leaving from Rosebank going to the central business district and I'm in my Uber, my my uh I'm with some of my friends, South African friends. The Uber gets stopped by the police.

[00:41:49]>> So I'm thinking, was he speeding? I'm trying to figure out was he speeding?

[00:41:52]What's going on? So the guy, it's a it's a it's a man and it's a woman knock on my side of the door and tell me to get out. I said, "Okay, what's up?" They ask me for my ID. I give them my ID and they say, "Where are you from?" I say, "It's on the ID. It's right there. My address is right there." I'm from the US. I'm from Ohio. No, you're from Anra. Anra is a state in Nigeria.

[00:42:18]>> Nigeria.

[00:42:19]>> I said, "First of all, I've never been to Anra. I've never been there. So, I don't even know why you brought that up."

[00:42:24]>> Right.

[00:42:24]>> They're like, "No, you're from Anra.

[00:42:26]Let's take you to the station to to check." I said, "I'm not going to any South African police station. I'm not Mandela. I don't know what you think is going on here.

[00:42:34]>> Okay. See, that's why they want that's why they had to do you like that.

[00:42:39]>> So, so [laughter] I'm sitting here. We're trying to negotiate with them. I get to the point where I'm very frustrated. I said, "Look, I have somewhere to go. How much do you how much do you want?" Oh, you're trying to bribe a officer of the South African law.

[00:42:54]>> South African accent. Hold on.

[00:42:56]>> Okay. She >> That's why you had trying to fight back.

[00:43:00]See, we do we do have to we do kind of have to wrap it up.

[00:43:04]>> I'm telling you the truth. So, at the end of the day, what ends up happening, I say, "Look, I have a I can get you a,000 rand. I don't have cash on me.

[00:43:12]Let's go to my bank, my the ATM. I pull the cash and give it to them." I tell this story because at the end of the day, I told my boss what happened and they canceled out South Africa, mind you.

[00:43:23]>> Yeah. What he said was, "How can I pull talent from all of Africa if an African went to South Africa and was extorted by the law?"

[00:43:33]>> Right?

[00:43:34]>> I can't pull talent from Nigeria. I can't pull talent from Ghana. I can't pull talent from all of Africa and centralize them in Africa.

[00:43:42]>> Yeah.

[00:43:42]>> Because I'm scared that this going to put my workers at risk.

[00:43:46]>> Yeah.

[00:43:46]>> And when and guess what? They've picked Kenya. So when we're talking about the systemic issues in South Africa, when we're talking about the lack of of job opportunities and you have people trying to invest, you don't know. You're you're assuming for whatever reason they're here. They're selling drugs. They're doing prostitution. Whatever. People are honestly trying to invest in South Africa because they see the promise and you put them in a situation where they have to say, "No, I'm not doing it here."

[00:44:16]>> Yeah. It's going to compound existing issues in your country.

[00:44:20]>> Yeah.

[00:44:20]>> If you feel like you have an issue of migration, you handle that with the laws on the books or you create new laws. You do not form mobs and gangs and go chase people and kill them. In 2015, they burned a man in the street. They burned women. And yeah, and I and I think it's like we we can't create vigilantes um to go do their own causes. But thank you so much.

[00:44:43]>> Thank you so much for your perspective.

[00:44:45]Um, as you can see, you've been waiting patiently to jump on. We were running behind today. It's all good.

[00:44:51]>> And I don't want anybody to be like, I hate South Africa. I hold Nigeria in to account for the [ __ ] I vote Ghana.

[00:44:58]I can I got smoke for anybody because I study these things and understand your perspective as well to give a balanced perspective.

[00:45:04]>> And hopefully one day we can have you both with um our South African guest.

[00:45:09]>> Like I said, I'm fine. I He was ready.

[00:45:11]He was too ready.

[00:45:12]>> Yeah, he was ready. So maybe we can go toe to toe. we can definitely have that conversation and and for for purposes of like you know building Africa like you know continuing to put Africa forward, push Africa forward cuz that's that's the whole thing. It's not to like talk down on any country because we all have our issues. Um but it's really just to like you know figure out the issues and the the root causes and like let's let's move forward and let let's figure out the issue. But thank you so much Ti for giving us your perspective and also giving us your personal story. Yeah.

[00:45:40]>> Um again we're so sorry that we were late. We're being transparent.

[00:45:43]>> No, you guys are cool. You guys are >> Uhhuh. Go ahead.

[00:45:46]>> You guys are all right. No, you guys are cool. Um, but yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. I'll catch you all on the next >> Yeah. See you next time. Thank you so much.

[00:45:54]>> Bye. Take care.

[00:45:57]>> All right, let's wrap up the episode.

[00:45:58]>> Yeah. So, we'll just get the panel's perspective. Hi to everyone who came in.

[00:46:03]>> All the [ __ ] y >> Wait, wait, wait. [laughter] Let's close this one out and then we'll we'll talk.

[00:46:09]>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So you guys heard from two guests um one South African who is on the ground who has a different perspective who has a more who has a a nuanced perspective in a more um I would say in depth because he's there he lives there he's he's there and um he doesn't condone the the violence and the xenophobia but he also ha had reasoning like an under context behind what is happening then we also had chi who is from who's a Nigerian American who has been to South Africa and was discriminated >> discriminated against and had had a rough experience. It loves the country but had a rough experience. So, you know, our goal here is to bridge the gap always. Always. So, yeah.

[00:46:53]>> Yes. And we didn't really know much about it. Like I said, we've just been seeing clips online, people beating people in the streets, >> kicking them out, >> going into the hospitals.

[00:47:02]>> Yes. Um even kids I saw kids facing like they were getting like you know telling them to get out of the schools and all like all kind of stuff. Um obviously we condone any uh we don't condone.

[00:47:14]>> Yeah we don't >> what's the opposite of condone [laughter] >> condemn condemn >> condemn >> we condemn any violence but uh we wanted to bring a balanced perspective. I think it's kind of sad what's going on for black Africans to be literally killing and targeting other Africans. But at the same time, I think RSA did bring perspective to where he was saying like they have limited resources and they the people are frustrated because they feel like the resources that are for South Africans, I think they feel like it's being exploited by other Africans coming there.

[00:47:46]>> Um, so I can see both sides, but I don't know if the panel has anything.

[00:47:49]>> Do you guys have any final thoughts?

[00:47:50]>> I think I really liked having both perspectives on the show. I feel like where RSA might have had potential blind spots. Mh.

[00:47:58]>> Um, she was it chi? Yeah.

[00:48:00]>> She was able to kind of have a outsider perspective and um provide some more cuz I think sometimes we could be biased to our experiences and I and I think he touched on how a lot of this stuff is systemic and I wanted to get out more so cuz like yes of course like this might even be a minority of the population that is participating in the xenophobia but it's still effective and it's still lives are on the line. Yeah. So, and the government is the government holding these people accountable to the point where they know not to do this or is the government empowering it or is the government allowing it to go on? And I just think about back to what she said about how um there's a lot of wealth disparity in South Africa. And so I just wanted about the scapegoating comment just thinking about how it would be incredibly beneficial. These people seem like they're doing the dirty work of the people that own a lot of South Africa, the people that are in that minority that are often that are white. So it seems like why would the government want to crack down on the crimes being done against foreigners whenever they are a part of like whenever you're able to wreak your power against another group like you it kind of distracts you from the actual issue. So if they're going after migrants and foreigners that kind of is taking away from the fact that they are themselves disenfranchised.

[00:49:20]>> Yeah. And I feel like that's why politicians will sometimes be like, "Oh yeah, they are the problem. They are the problem." It is the black migrants.

[00:49:27]Yeah. Focus on them because it takes attention away from like their corruption or whatever they're doing.

[00:49:33]>> Keep fighting. And I think that's something that happens all across the world. It's not just unique in South Africa. I think we as black people, I think a lot of times we will attack our brother because that's the one we're closest to. That's the one we can actually hurt, but we can't hit the person that owns the land, if that makes sense. So, >> absolutely. I love that perspective.

[00:49:51]>> Any other Sorry. Thoughts? No. What about you?

[00:49:54]>> No, like um I I thought it was interesting. I'm glad you guys brought both cuz it was nice to hear >> both perspectives about what's going on.

[00:50:02]>> But I think the main thing is like >> um like seeing both perspectives like how they painted South Africa, you know?

[00:50:09]>> Um >> Yeah, that's >> Yeah, like it was like it it was interesting. So I think um I think the same things like South Africa is going through as as great as South Africa is probably the most developed country in Africa they have very high unemployment very high inequality >> and um and it's one thing when we're all suffering but it's one thing to see the top like inequality always leads to issues in our society because when the rich are getting too rich and the poor are are still poor eventually they're going to be like all right okay you guys you guys cannot have it eventually something will have it's like a cake eventually it's going to explode >> but also I think um I do agree I think there is a sense of >> like there might be I I do agree it might be that I think there might be some dark money >> to switch people's like don't look at the rich pay attention like to to the immigrants those are the people that's causing your issues and and it's society has always been like that like over over um over generations if you look at historically when issues pop up it's usually when there's an economic downturn when everybody is suffering and then they have to find a target who's the target so that they don't exactly the people that are actually causing them you know are actually shutting them down off from what they're getting so in this situation it's the African migrants but >> the thing is even if all the African migrants leave South Africa they're not going to stop having that's true the bad inequality >> exactly and I [clears throat] think that's the thing that's like they never address the the wealth inequality from apartheid after a part because white people still own the majority of the wealth in South Africa and they never really fully I don't I feel like instead of like addressing that like African black migrants are being made to be the scapegoat.

[00:51:52]>> Yeah. They're not attacking the white owned businesses or anything like that.

[00:51:56]>> They literally told the Indian owned the Chinese owned businesses don't hire black migrants. They're telling people that look less like them to not hire people that look more like them which was so crazy to me. And that that was the heart. [music] It's like also like why don't you attack the people that are hiring illegal um uh immigrants >> or why don't you attack the people that are oppressing you? Exactly. Instead of black migrants are not exactly. Yeah.

[00:52:18]Exactly. They're just normal human being. No. No matter who you are, you're always going to go where there's more opportunity. You know, and you cannot tell somebody don't go where there's opportunity. It's your fault for coming here.

[00:52:29]>> Yes. And there's also a lot of South African um organizations that are against um xenophobia and people who speak out against the new xenophobia so that we don't blanket this episode as like a episode that all African all South Africans view um black migrants the same way. There's a lot of them that understand like the the root of the issue and [music] like that's what needs to be addressed. But it's something that we need to talk about because xenophobia is something that we've also addressed on this podcast as well. um not in the context of South Africa but just in general like us being Sudin we've dealt with xenophobia in our own countries like um Sudan South Sudan like how how people are viewed um that are diff quote unquote different from you. So we just wanted to kind of um discuss this in a way where we can push the country forward, push the continent forward, I think cuz I think we can all learn from each other, >> right? and it's currently a trending topic at current event. We're seeing videos every day of people being beat in the streets, people being killed.

[00:53:31]>> So, we obviously didn't want to just speak on it based off of us seeing videos online. We wanted to have people who actually lived in South Africa or Nigerian people who >> obviously Chi had a lot to say. He felt like he was discriminated against and he had a lot of talking points as well. If you had anything to [music] add to the conversation, please feel free to comment below. We will do a follow-up episode if need be.

[00:53:54]>> If maybe we'll go live.

[00:53:56]>> Yeah, maybe we'll do a live and have people be able to come up so that they can give their perspective. But um there'll be videos in this.

[00:54:03]>> Yeah, we'll we'll add you'll see the text on what we're speaking of. And thank you guys so much for watching >> and [music] like, comment, subscribe to Ladies of Sosa and we love you deep.

[00:54:13]Bye. Thank you. Bye.