Pastor Delman Coates: The Truth About Sex, Money & the Black Church | Deep Rewind ⏪

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[00:00:00]In just a few days, we will celebrate, I think, the 60 62nd anniversary of Dr. King's March on Washington. And March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.

[00:00:14]And when I think about Dr. King, I'm just reminded of this very popular quote where Dr. King says, in essence, any religion that professes to be concerned about the souls of men and women, but is not concerned about the economic the slums that damn them, the economic conditions that strangle them, and the social conditions that crippled them, then that religion is a dead religion awaiting burial.

[00:00:43]And when one thinks when one thinks about that statement, he really highlights the critical importance of seeing the nexus between issues of personal piety and perhaps even individual salvation, um but also um it must be connected with issues of public engagement as well. And I'm really deeply connected. I'm passionate about that. It's really a part of my call narrative uh as a pastor. I grew up in the church.

[00:01:16]And every Sunday going to church, there was an image that I saw every Sunday.

[00:01:21]My church, Pilgrim Baptist Church in Richmond, Virginia, was about three blocks from the city jail.

[00:01:28]And every Sunday, and about three or four times a week going to church for different meetings, um um our car stopped at that stoplight. And I would look over and see 75 to 100 black men behind um uh the jail uh uh walls, the fence outside of the jail, the barbed wire fence.

[00:01:50]And then when we pulled up to the church, to the right was the church building, and to the left was the juvenile detention center. And I see another 50 to 100 uh young boys um um behind that fence at the juvenile detention center. Our church was surrounded by two housing projects. And every Sunday that I went to church, I wrestled with the connection between my faith um and the social, political, and economic realities outside of the church. And my call to ministry was really born out of this belief and commitment that Jesus has something to say about justice, that our faith has something to say about the social and economic realities um within which the church is called to serve.

[00:02:40]And the sermon series that I'm preaching is on one level intended to give people interpretative uh hermeneutical and theological tools for navigating issues that we've all been told um um are prohibited, are regarded as sinful.

[00:02:59]But at a much broader level, it's really designed to encourage people of faith, in my mind, leaders and the laity, to really think about the connection between our theology and issues of justice, injustice, and the macroeconomic realities in which we're called to address and that Jesus addressed um in his own context.

[00:03:28]>> [music] [music] >> Good people, what's up? What's good, y'all? I am blessed to be your host, Caleb Smith. Today's guest, man, powerful brother. Shout out to friend of the show, great pastor, Pastor Christian A. Smith, man. I was scrolling on social media one day. I saw some of your clips from uh your safe text series, and I was just blown away by it.

[00:03:58]>> Sure. Pastor Delman Coates, how you feeling, bro?

[00:04:00]>> Man, I'm great. This is uh I'm excited to be here with you, and uh I've been checking out your platform and the way in which you've been uh changing the culture, uh shifting the conversation. So, I'm really honored to be here today.

[00:04:12]>> Same. I love I think these type of conversations, to me, are the absolute best. Because having black pastors from the black church, y'all have such a unique perspective on our community, Mhm. uh spirituality, Mhm. of course, religion, Sure. and and so much more. Um starting off though, one quote that you once stated, and it always caught my eye. Scripture is designed to set us free, not push us in bondage. How do we start to use scripture to liberate us, opposed to always using it to oppress ourselves?

[00:04:41]>> Right.

[00:04:42]Well, you know, um I've been getting a a lot of attention lately for the sermon series that I've been in entitled Practicing Safe Text.

[00:04:50]And um it's really intended to trope on the phrase practicing safe sex.

[00:04:57]But it's really born out of this idea that the scriptures can either be used to help or to harm, to bless or to put people in bondage.

[00:05:07]And we've seen the ways in which the Bible has been used to hurt, to oppress, um and to foment things that are really contrary to the character and the heart of God, in my mind.

[00:05:20]And so, I've really been led uh as a pastor, um as a historian of religion, as a Bible scholar, New Testament scholar, to really give people tools to help them to navigate some really challenging issues around the body and the sexual politics of the body um that have put a lot of people in spiritual bondage.

[00:05:42]But not only that, um that's been used to advance social and political ideas um um that have kept people socially and politically oppressed. Because for me, this series is bigger than um issues of personal piety and sexual ethics in one's personal life.

[00:06:03]I don't want to minimize those issues.

[00:06:05]Those issues are critically important.

[00:06:08]But I've been thinking about this series as a wedge to a a broader set of macroeconomic and political realities that the texts that are often used to put people in bondage around divorce, fornication, um and even homosexuality are really about. What people really miss is that these the very texts that have been used to focus on issues of personal piety, right? Um are really about issues of social and systemic critique and social and systemic justice.

[00:06:49]And that's really foundationally for me what um the um movement of Jesus that eventually uh gets uh called Christianity is all about. Um [snorts] and I'm really trying to be a part of pushing a conversation in the pulpit and the pews about these broader macroeconomic, systemic, and structural realities that the texts are addressing um and that are affecting us today. Because you know, we are right now facing challenging times in our country, in our world, um with the geopolitical environment today with what we're seeing, with the destabilization of our democracy. And what we need uh are more people of faith who are connecting their faith uh to issues related to their public witness.

[00:07:44]You know, when I think about where we are right now, in just a few days, we will celebrate, I think, the 60 62nd anniversary of Dr. King's March on Washington. And March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.

[00:08:01]And when I think about Dr. King, I'm just reminded of this very popular quote where Dr. King says, in essence, any religion that professes to be concerned about the souls of men and women, but is not concerned about the economic the slums that damn them, the economic conditions that strangle them, and the social conditions that crippled them, then that religion is a dead religion awaiting burial.

[00:08:31]And when one thinks when one thinks about that statement, he really highlights the critical importance of seeing the nexus between issues of personal piety and perhaps even individual salvation, um but also um it must be connected with issues of public engagement as well. And I'm really deeply connected. I'm passionate about that. It's really a part of my call narrative uh as a pastor. I grew up in the church.

[00:09:04]And every Sunday going to church, there was an image that I saw every Sunday.

[00:09:09]My church, Pilgrim Baptist Church in Richmond, Virginia, was about three blocks from the city jail.

[00:09:16]And every Sunday, and about three or four times a week going to church for different meetings, um um our car stopped at that stoplight. And I would look over and see 75 to 100 black men behind um uh the jail uh uh walls, the fence outside of the jail, the barbed wire fence.

[00:09:38]And then when we pulled up to the church, to the right was the church building, and to the left was the juvenile detention center. And I see another 50 to 100 uh young boys um um behind that fence at the juvenile detention center. Our church was surrounded by two housing projects. And every Sunday that I went to church, I wrestled with the connection between my faith um and the social, political, and economic realities outside of the church. And my call to ministry was really born out of this belief and commitment that Jesus has something to say about justice, that our faith has something to say about the social and economic realities um within which the church is called to serve.

[00:10:28]And the sermon series that I'm preaching is on one level intended to give people interpretive uh hermeneutical and theological tools for navigating issues that we've all been told um um are prohibited, are regarded as sinful.

[00:10:47]But at a much broader level, it's really designed to encourage people of faith, in my mind, leaders and the laity to really think about the connection between our theology and issues of justice, injustice, and the macroeconomic realities in which we're called to address, and that Jesus addressed um in his own context. Hey, come on, pastor. You're starting off hot already.

[00:11:15]>> Sure. Macroeconomics, the deficit, man.

[00:11:19]What impact did that book have on you because in church, faith is always present, but rarely are we talking about finance.

[00:11:27]>> Sure. Why is that book so important?

[00:11:30]Well, it's it's important because um we all remember the global financial crisis in 2007 and 2008.

[00:11:41]Um and our church was really impacted by this crisis because the county in which I serve led the state and in some instances led the nation of foreclosures.

[00:11:54]I was seeing on television bankers getting bailed out, insurance companies getting bailed out, and members of my church would get they were getting put out of their homes.

[00:12:04]And I wanted to understand uh I was dissatisfied with the answers I was getting from the financial sector.

[00:12:11]Namely, well, people just took out mortgages that they they couldn't afford. Um and that people were financially irresponsible.

[00:12:19]I was dissatisfied with that. And I think we need uh more sort of righteous dissatisfaction in our churches and our pulpits. And it really led me on this quest to understand issues of macroeconomics that we don't often uh focus on, we're not often trained uh in issues of macroeconomics.

[00:12:40]We know microfinance. In every church today, there's uh a curriculum, there's a course around uh financial management, personal finance, and budgeting, and saving, and things of that nature.

[00:12:54]And all that's good, but what we fail to realize is that microeconomics is a function and a subset of macroeconomics.

[00:13:03]And um so that led me uh on this long journey to understand the core uh insights of a school of economics known as modern monetary theory.

[00:13:16]Uh MMT, modern monetary theory or MMT for short, is a school of economics that's been growing in the economics uh in the academy for about 35 years now.

[00:13:27]It's been gaining a lot of traction in the financial press here in the states uh over the last 8 or 9 years. And it's really been picking up a lot of traction in Congress. And this is important because modern monetary theory or MMT helps us to understand that the way that we've been told that our federal federal government funds the things that we need um is wrong. We've been misled about the capacity of the federal government to spend on the things that we desperately need as the American people.

[00:14:02]And what what are some of those myths?

[00:14:05]Well, one is that the federal government's ability to spend is constrained by the deficit, that the federal government's budget works like a household that needs revenue first in order to spend. And MMT economists um many of the leading uh economists help us to understand that conventional uh mainstream economists and conventional policy makers mislead the public by making them think that the federal government's budget and ability to spend works like your home.

[00:14:37]See, the federal government uh is different than a household.

[00:14:42]It can spend by creating the money. It's not a currency user like we are, like a like a church or even the state of Georgia. The federal government has the uh power to create the money for the things that we need, and it does it all the time. When we go to war, when we um uh when we need uh national defense, when we need to respond to a public health pandemic like we just saw 5 years ago, $5 trillion just fell out of the sky.

[00:15:12]>> nowhere.

[00:15:12]>> Right. Uh no one was taxed, no millionaires or billionaires or corporations were taxed in order to to get that uh money to respond to that crisis.

[00:15:23]The federal government has the capacity to uh create money for the things that we need, and it should do so um as long as we don't exceed our inflation target, that inflation is the constraint, not revenue, not tax revenue. And that really opened up huge possibilities because whenever progressives begin or progressives or conservatives begin to talk about the things that we desperately need in America, like we need a strong, stable, robust national healthcare system. I think it's immoral that people die or go bankrupt for getting sick in America.

[00:16:03]We need more affordable housing. We need quality public schools in every community in America, not just the wealthy communities.

[00:16:13]And we need a federal job guarantee so that uh people's ability to provide for themselves and their families uh isn't held hostage by the ability of the private sector to provide jobs at a livable wage.

[00:16:29]Um the unfinished work of the civil rights movement is the fight for full employment. And we can do that. We can create robust public sector uh jobs uh for every American that wants those uh jobs by harnessing our uh economic capacity in this country. And to do so responsibly so that we don't have all of the homelessness that we see in our communities and the crime and violence.

[00:16:57]The best way to address crime is not by sending uh federal troops and national guard troops into urban cities.

[00:17:07]The best way to fight crime in America is to provide a livable job um at a livable wage with benefits for every American. And so MMT is really critical because it really helps us to deconstruct the economic myths that we've been told and taught as a community.

[00:17:30]Um the prevailing economic ethos in America is what's called neoliberalism.

[00:17:37]Neoliberalism is the economic uh philosophy in America. It's the reigning paradigm that really advances the idea that society is better off if it's left into the hands of um the private sector.

[00:17:53]Right? That if we leave society into the hands of private actors, we'll be better off.

[00:18:00]Um entrepreneurs, um you know, people who have great ideas, and certainly we need those individuals.

[00:18:09]And really, when you think about the prevailing political approach of Democrats and uh and Republicans, they are advocating a variety of neoliberal economic theory.

[00:18:23]Um they may appear to be different, but they're really not.

[00:18:27]And what we see in the black community are um black versions of the neo liberal framework.

[00:18:37]As if black neoliberalism is the pathway to empowerment for black people. I don't think that's the case. Um um because what it what it does is that it ignores the true source of wealth in the country.

[00:18:55]See, private actors are not the source of wealth in the country. Individual entrepreneurs are not the source of wealth in the country.

[00:19:05]The government of the United States of of America, the the government of the people creates wealth. Private actors harness that wealth, they home that wealth, um they grab that wealth, and they use public supports for their own benefits, right? In the form of central bank reserves, tax credits, you name it. Uh bank charters. They harness public supports for themselves. They legitimize the role of government for themselves, the rich and the wealthy. But they delegitimize the role of government for individuals. So when we need healthcare, when we need um better funding for infrastructure, mass transit, a green new deal, addressing our environmental crisis, which is one of our greatest existential threats today. Um, then we're made to feel that we're lazy, that we just want welfare. Meanwhile, the largest recipients of public supports or public subsidies or public welfare are the rich and the wealthy in this country.

[00:20:14]I mean, think about how Elon Musk went from uh his wealth just before the November election last year, it was about 175 billion, I think. And now his wealth is over 400 billion. How did that happen? Did he have another great idea in a matter of eight or nine months?

[00:20:32]No.

[00:20:34]He was able to harness public supports for himself by delegitimizing the role of government for us. That's what this DOGE, Department of Government Efficiency, fiasco was all about, delegitimizing the role of government, which is our government. See, I think we need to relegitimize the role of government. Um, a part of the neoliberal myth is that government is bad, it's too big, but that's because the wealthy in this country understand that the pathway to wealth is by harnessing the nation's gross domestic product. We create 25 trillion dollars of wealth every year.

[00:21:16]So, the issue is not that the we need to figure out how to get more streams of income, more wealth.

[00:21:23]We need to figure out how to democratize the wealth that is already created.

[00:21:28]And I think people are looking for that answer. I mean, think about this weekend here in Atlanta, really incredible um you know, festival that's centered around investments and economics. So, people are looking for those answers, but while I think that's great, one of my concerns is that if we're not careful, if we don't learn how to deconstruct the frames that are given to us, we'll end up coming up with the wrong answers to the right questions.

[00:21:57]And I think that the pathway to a broad sustainable economic sustainability in the country is by relegitimizing uh the role of government and the path to economic sustainability and developing an economic bill of rights for every American for every citizen, every person, every American, every individual in this country. And and so, I know you you have more, but this sermon series may on one level appear to be about the politics of the body as it relates to fornication and you know, we can certainly talk about that and homosexuality and divorce, but it's really an effort on my part to really frame the site for moral ethical critique in scripture in a different way. Actually, to reframe it and recenter it in the way in which the the early church did.

[00:22:58]Because in the early church, and by early church, I mean the first four centuries of Christianity, the site for moral and ethical critique was uh centered around issues of systemic and social inequality.

[00:23:17]Think about James chapter 1, you know, um religion that is pure and undefiled before God is this, to care for the orphans and widows in their times of distress.

[00:23:28]Um when one thinks about most of the language in scripture around money is about how we care for the poor, how we care for the less fortunate.

[00:23:41]And so, the early churches um technical vocabulary was decidedly anti-imperial.

[00:23:51]Uh um even when one thinks about the title that early Christians gave for Jesus, the son of God, this title was the title for Caesar.

[00:24:05]Caesar was the son of God.

[00:24:08]And so, the technical vocabulary that early Christians appropriated and adopted was anti-imperial in nature. Well, what happens in the 4th century is this small um uh movement that celebrated a great deal that had that was comfortable with all types of difference and diversity becomes the official religion of the empire.

[00:24:34]Constantine makes Christianity the official religion of the empire.

[00:24:39]And at that point, the technical vocabulary and the theology and the doctrines of Christianity shift from being focused on being anti-imperial to pro-empire.

[00:24:56]And and the technical vocabulary goes from being focused on a public critique to personal piety.

[00:25:06]So, salvation is now not just not about the salvation and the redemption of the community of a people here on earth, but becomes about issues of personal piety. And so, there's been that tension, right? And um I really want to try, you know, to do all I can to give um the public, lay people, pastors um interpretive tools to begin to reframe uh these concepts that we've been given so that we can get out of the slave theology and the slave religion that we've inherited.

[00:25:48]In a few weeks, I'm going to Not in a few weeks, in a few months, I'm going to go back to Ghana for the third or fourth time. And for those who've been to Ghana, they know that, you know, um when you go to the Elmina Castle and you walk through the slave dungeons at the bottom of this slave castle, where um the men were on one side, women on the other side, it's this, you know, eerie experience. And then they walk you through the door of no return.

[00:26:24]What was interesting about it is that above the dungeons is a church.

[00:26:32]At so, the here here you have a slave castle where they are praying, preaching, singing to God, worshipping Jesus.

[00:26:48]And underneath that chapel, um they are committing the most heinous crimes against humanity, right?

[00:26:58]And so, we are not we, but many in America are heirs and legatees of that kind of um theological framework, where um the souls of African of Africans were baptized, but their bodies were enslaved. And we've got to change that because the there are two axes of a cross. There's a vertical axis and there's a horizontal axis.

[00:27:29]And you know, the horizontal axis, you know, does speak to humanity's relationship with God, but the horizontal axis is about our relationship to one another.

[00:27:43]And we need to reclaim that kind of focus so that we don't have the kinds of pain that we see so often in today's society.

[00:27:56]Yeah. Sorry for rambling so long, man.

[00:28:00]Yeah.

[00:28:00]Slave theology, how do we try to begin to deconstruct that? Because even in church now, especially here in the South in the Bible Belt, you went to Morehouse, already know, you know, most churches, even to this day, you walk in, there's a white Jesus >> Mhm. on there. And that affects you psychologically, where you see all the angels are white, but then everybody that's evil, like the devil, this person, they all are darker. How do we try to unlearn our slave theology that's been passed down from generation to generation, but still have a strong relationship with the church and Christ as well?

[00:28:32]>> Sure. It's a good question. It's one I encounter all the time. And as I listen to it, it makes me think of uh something that a colleague said to me uh a few few um recently, last month, at a major uh clergy conference and convention. And I walked in, he brother walks over to me, he says, "Man, you have got to be one of the most courageous pastors in the country."

[00:28:59]And I asked him why I said that. And you know, he says it takes a lot of courage to um you know, step out and take a stand on, you know, the kinds of issues that you um that you speak about.

[00:29:13]And you know, I thought about that as when I walked away from him. And I I thought about Dr. King.

[00:29:23]And I said, "You know, I'm really not courageous. I'm just prepared."

[00:29:33]Preparation informs your convictions.

[00:29:37]And when I think about Dr. King, you know, who led um I mean, I think Dr. King got his PhD at 26.

[00:29:46]You know, he's leading the Montgomery Improvement Association.

[00:29:49]Um he's leading a movement with threats to his life and his family, but he did that because he was prepared.

[00:29:58]And I think prepared preachers who go to school um not just to get a credential to get a pulpit, but who go to prepare themselves, prepare their hearts, their minds, to prepare themselves morally and ethically prepared preachers um you know, embody the kind of compassion, the kind of calling, the kind of courage that we see um um modeled in scripture by Jesus. And so, you know, if we're going to de- if we're going to deconstruct the kind of received uh insights or tools or theology that we've inherited, we need more clergy committed to serious theological preparation.

[00:30:56]My mother used to always say that a preacher can only take people as high as he or she is. And so, we need more preachers who are committed to bringing together both head and heart as as Howard Thurman said. You know, we have a lot of really great charismatic uh leaders, just you know, men and women who um just really have an a an a an incredible charisma and anointing.

[00:31:26]Um but we've got to add learning to that burning. And um you can't just get that on social media.

[00:31:34]Um I saw someone say the other day, you know, social media, as important as it is, is not seminary.

[00:31:44]Um we've really got to take, you know, um the task that's before us in operating on people's hearts, minds, souls seriously. And that takes preparation. I mean, you wouldn't go to a cardiologist who just said I was called to, you know, to operate on people's hearts. You wouldn't go to a brain surgeon who said God called him to, you know, to operate on people's brain.

[00:32:13]No, you want someone who studied, who has a track record.

[00:32:16]And we need uh more of that. And just going to And and I'm not just talking about getting a certification, because some of our greatest minds in the church were not people who had degrees on their walls. I don't I don't want people to get it twisted.

[00:32:33]Um I'm not just talking about credentialing for the sake of getting a credential. And we have a lot of that.

[00:32:41]Um but I think if we're going to if we're going to empower people theologically, liberate our people, it's going to take, you know, leaders who are committed to uh uh training and preparation. And I think it's I think it also requires, you know, a kind of security within yourself to be able to say, "You know what? I may have thought X about this particular subject, but God is growing me. I'm I'm learning new things, new possibilities about what I thought um and and I'm really excited, Caleb, because I've seen colleagues grow on a variety of issues that we've had knockdown, drag-out debates, you know, decades ago that I now see using their pulpits and their platforms to expand uh the conversation.

[00:33:41]Um and so, I'm really encouraged as um as this is happening. And I actually think that platforms like this are key because when I think about I'm embarrassed to say this, but I was a freshman at Morehouse almost 35 years ago, 34 years ago. Um Yeah, but when I think about the man, when I think about the people I looked up to uh in ministry, I wish we saw them on national television, which was the platform at that time.

[00:34:21]Um I was blessed growing up in Richmond, Virginia. Uh two of our leading pastors in Richmond, uh Dr. uh Roscoe Cooper, um and Reverend Dr. Dwight Jones, Dwight C. Jones in Richmond, Virginia.

[00:34:38]They had a morning show every Sunday morning in Richmond, came on around 7:00 a.m. It was live.

[00:34:46]It was entitled Focus on Black Religious Life.

[00:34:50]And you had these two leading pastors in the city, uh Dwight C. Jones and Roscoe Cooper, talking about the key social and political issues of the day.

[00:35:04]And doing it from a very progressive, critical um theological perspective.

[00:35:10]That really That really meant a lot to me. And but when I went to um when I got to college and started to get introduced to wow, you know, Gardner Taylor and Jeremiah Wright and um so many that I looked up to, Calvin Butts and others, I thought it would it would be great if we could see them on television.

[00:35:38]There was a vacuum where what we saw on television were the black televangelists that were given a platform by white, wealthy, white conservative evangelical um uh platforms. TBN. I won't call any names, >> say it. TBN. It's okay. but many of the people that we know, we know them because they were given free airtime in the '80s and on into the '90s.

[00:36:06]And and and that platform shaped a generation, not just here in the states, but around the world, right? I remember going to um Ghana the first time. No, Ghana I remember going to Ghana the first time and um the pastor of the church held the service up so he could raise $40,000 so he could get some flat screen TVs. He saw this group of black Americans there, and he wanted to raise $40,000 so he could get screens in a church that was in a rural part of Accra, Accra, Ghana, with no running water, but he had seen TBN someplace.

[00:36:52]And he wanted his church to look like what he saw on television.

[00:36:59]And I really wish we had a a counter narrative in the '90s to what we were seeing. And the voices, and I don't want to delegitimize their voice, but what we lacked was a counter narrative.

[00:37:15]Um we needed to see um a broader reflection of black religious life. Because I say often that there's a difference between the black church and a church of blacks.

[00:37:28]See, the black church refers to that subset of of uh black sacred spirituality in this country that was always on the side of the fight for freedom, justice, and equality.

[00:37:43]It's a historiographic term that historians use to refer to the freedom tradition of black religion in general and black Christianity in particular.

[00:37:57]And so, just because you have a church of blacks does not mean that they're committed to the black church tradition of freedom fighting.

[00:38:08]And so, what we need are more voices and leaders and worship leaders and lay people who are committed to the black church tradition tradition of freedom fighting.

[00:38:21]And for that to happen, we need more platforms like this um to come together to provide a counter narrative to the black religious voices that today are being financed by white conservative interests um to advance their very conservative political agenda, their conservative reform theology.

[00:38:45]And um so, we need, you know, more platforms like this to develop that kind of counter narrative for uh today's generation. So, I want to really encourage you to continue to do what you're doing.

[00:39:00]Listen, I receive that, pastor. I appreciate it greatly. Why do you think that premarital sex is such a this taboo topic in the church, especially in the black church? Um growing up in the church myself of seeing young girls put pressure on themselves, even young men, right? And they'll be in their early 20s, and it's like, okay, guys. And then some in their late 20s. I've had a best friend, I think I told you, he was like 26, 27. Yeah. And it's like, that's kind of a long time compared to average people. And then it's like, when it comes to knowing how to handle sex, some of those people sometimes get too excited, and they might even get addicted to it.

[00:39:42]>> Uh-huh. So, why is sex this taboo topic in the church but then we could talk about other things but we can't talk about that. Sure.

[00:39:50]Well, you know, people have listened to this um practicing safe text sermon series and they've heard the message that I shared on fornication and I think they may have gotten the wrong or they've gotten one side of the story here.

[00:40:06]Um um they've sort of presumed that I'm talking about um encouraging sexual irresponsibility.

[00:40:15]And I'm not.

[00:40:17]Um the issue of um managing our sexual desire and appetite is an important one.

[00:40:25]Um but I think historically sex has been used as a weapon to control and to police and to restrict people in a variety of ways, particularly women.

[00:40:41]Um and I think this broader understanding of the history of sex and sexuality, history of monogamy and marriage is important for people to understand the ways in which um the way that sex came to be understood socially and even in religious circles was used as a weapon to control the bodies of women by men.

[00:41:06]Um by property men who needed a means of determining the paternity of their children in a pre-scientific world.

[00:41:19]They wanted to pass down their property pass down their inheritance and they needed a system to uh determine that. And the system that was developed in you know feudalist societies over the last 20 uh 10 to 20,000 years um was really about policing and patrolling women's bodies.

[00:41:43]And you know, the church comes along and develops a religious rationale about that, guilting and shaming mainly women about this.

[00:41:54]But I want to say this you know, um that the development of these uh institutions um and the sexual politics that grow out of that imply that there was definitely more sexual fluidity than people think about.

[00:42:16]Because you don't need to police something that doesn't exist, right? You don't need to tell slaves to be obedient to their masters if they're already being obedient. You don't need to tell women to be silent and to don't speak in church uh unless they're already speaking and they were.

[00:42:34]They were speaking and preaching and prophesying.

[00:42:39]So we have to understand there's this it's a multi-layered issue. There's this broader issue around sexual politics really being about policing women's bodies and the economic realities about that.

[00:42:54]But then apart from that, you know, just in in our own personal behavior, you know, who you sleep with is an important issue.

[00:43:03]And I said in this sermon series, the parts of this sermon series that didn't get much attention were the parts of the message where I talked about it is important to have to have sexual discipline and responsibility and to manage this appetite, this desire that God has given us. And so even though I said I don't regard this as a sin, it is a very important issue that can have incredible consequences for our lives.

[00:43:36]You know?

[00:43:38]People need to understand that puppy love can lead to a dog life.

[00:43:43]And so how we manage you know, our sexual desires and appetites uh are important. Now the way that we do that in my mind is not through guilting and shaming people.

[00:43:57]Um but by equipping people with the appropriate spiritual, ethical, moral resources to help them to manage this very important and natural desire that um God has given us. But we don't want to misuse that. We don't want to abuse that. And we certainly don't want to guilt people and shame people uh either at the same time. So I've said uh that rather than using shame and guilt and condemnation as the prism for uh addressing this issue, we need to think about sex less as a problem to be solved and more as an appetite to be managed.

[00:44:48]Um we have desires, not just sexual desires but all types of desires and we manage them through discipline, through education, through knowledge, through thinking about our higher selves. Um um we don't just put anything in our bodies when we eat or we shouldn't, right? Not if we want to be healthy.

[00:45:11]And we should treat our sexual bodies, our sexual health the the same way.

[00:45:17]And we just have not given people adequate tools to deal with um sex other than don't do it. And that's not working. I don't think it's working.

[00:45:29]When I look around, you know it's not working.

[00:45:33]Um we've got to we've got to give young people, young adults and middle-aged folks tools to responsibly uh manage um their sexual life so that then they're not they don't deal with the very real spiritual, emotional, physical, you know, consequences that can come from this and any sort of behavior that we're involved in. And and and I think I think the challenge is sometimes in the church we just want to give people easy answers to difficult questions. And I'm much more comfortable with nuance and complexity and at the end of the day um uh trusting that people can make the best decisions for themselves.

[00:46:26]Um I just am. I believe that that's one of the messages of uh the story uh in Genesis in the Garden of Eden. I think God can handle our freedom of choice.

[00:46:41]And um I think for some in the church it's easier to err on the side of no um rather than saying something I think Paul says in Romans.

[00:46:58]Um he says all things are lawful but they're not expedient. They're not beneficial. They may not be healthy.

[00:47:05]They may not be edifying.

[00:47:08]And so I think it's possible to do two things. To say that something may not be a sin. Something may not take you to hell.

[00:47:15]But it may cause you to experience you know, you know, hellish conditions here on here on earth and I'm much more comfortable with giving people the tools and resources to think through how they're going to live their lives and to prayerfully do so in a safe, responsible way.

[00:47:38]Pastor from seeing sermons, podcast clips, interviews, um one thing that I love seeing is you breaking down the word fornication. As I already know on social media, people in the comments, naysayers, you know, they'll say, "Well, we're not supposed to fornicate with woo woo woo." What exactly [clears throat] is fornication and where did that word actually derive from? Sure. So the English word fornication derives from the Latin word fornix which means to sell. It's about the selling of sex.

[00:48:07]Um and that is connected with the Greek word porneia which is what Paul in the New Testament in every usage of the term porneia is referring to.

[00:48:25]He is referring to the system of sexual and economic exploitation of bodies um in prostitution. It's what Paul is addressing all throughout 1 Corinthians.

[00:48:38]In 1 Corinthians 5 when verse 1 when Paul says, "There is an instance of porneia or fornication among you of a kind that's not even seen amongst the pagans." What is he talking about? What is he he's he's not talking about sexual immorality as many translations say. He's talking specifically about a type of prostitution that he was disturbed by seeing in the early church, in the church of Corinth.

[00:49:07]And what was that? A man was paying for sex with his father's wife.

[00:49:14]He follows that same theme in chapter 6 by talking about uniting your body with a pornos, a harlot or prostitute.

[00:49:25]And if one considers the context of you know, 1 Corinthians, you'll understand the content of 1 Corinthians which was about prostitution. This same thing continues through chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians, where Paul, in response to a letter that was written to him, in which the the Corinthians wanted to know, "How do we discern the difference between Corinthian women, Christian women, and the non-Christian women?"

[00:50:03]Because the women who are part of the neighboring temple uh temples um had temple prostitutes there. And those temple prostitutes had short hair.

[00:50:16]And apparently, on their way to church, the men in the church at Corinth got lost.

[00:50:24]Or they got confused, and they needed help. Um and so Paul develops this theological rationale that tells the women in that place to have their hair long or to have something on their head so that the brethren don't get confused.

[00:50:43]But the whole point of Paul's ethic around what is termed fornication or porneia was about participating in this system of social and sexual, and in some instances, religious exploitation.

[00:51:01]It's really a part of the Bible's broader concern around sexual ethics that goes back to Leviticus. We see it in Deuteronomy.

[00:51:13]We see it in Romans. In Romans, we see it all throughout scripture.

[00:51:18]So, it's about prostitution.

[00:51:21]That does not mean that the issue of premarital sex is not important. It is.

[00:51:27]But what Paul is addressing in these texts is very specific. And all of these theological dictionaries that use, you know, very broad terms to describe, you know, what porneia is about, I think are flawed. I think they're wrong. I think they're part of the project to shift the site for moral and ethical critique from systemic and social exploitation to shifting that towards issues of personal piety. And many in the church um have kind of gotten upset, or some, not not everyone, but some have gotten upset because we are so wedded to the notion that who you're sleeping with is a barometer for your um relationship with God that we can't think about that in other ways. I just don't believe concerned about our body counts.

[00:52:28]Now, we may need to be, and we probably should.

[00:52:32]But I don't think access to heaven or the kingdom is is is based upon that.

[00:52:40]And I think that it's possible for us to be able to say two things.

[00:52:44]Um and uh so, to answer your question, fornication is about prostitution.

[00:52:51]Fornication in the Bible. Now, in the English recension of the language, fornication has come to mean something more broadly. [clears throat] More, you know, broader, namely, premarital sex. Everyone, when they hear the word fornication, they think premarital sex. But this is a very modern and recent sort of um um development in the English language.

[00:53:19]But, you know, when we believe in the authority of scripture we believe in the authority of scripture in in the Greek and in the Hebrew, not in some of these modern English colloquial translations. So, that is what fornication means in the Bible. I stand on it. I won't waver on it. And I think it is designed there to invite us as Christians to be passionate about challenging systems of sexual and economic exploitation.

[00:53:56]Like leaders in the church and outside of the church and in government who use their power to exploit people sexually. Whether it's from clergy, bishops with collars who exploit young boys or whether it's politicians who, along with their wealthy benefactors, exploit young girls.

[00:54:26]That's what these texts are about. And so, I'm committed to highlighting that because I think that what we need are more people of faith committed to that rather than turning a blind eye to it.

[00:54:40]Indeed, Pastor. How do we try our best to avoid passing STIs, spiritually transmitted infections, not sexually.

[00:54:48]But how do we avoid passing off STIs in 2025? Wow, it's a good question. Um you know, all all I can say is I invite people to look at the two foundational sermons in the series that I preached, Practicing Safe Texts. There's a first sermon that I preached entitled Forget What You Heard.

[00:55:08]Where Jesus, I think six times in the Sermon on the Mount, says, "You have heard it said, but I say to you."

[00:55:14]Um and he is do um he is doing some very strong theological work in encouraging his audience to have a broad, reflexive, theological equilibrium for appropriating God's word and God's scripture in a way without building an altar around what they were told and taught in Sunday school.

[00:55:43]So, I encourage people to get that message, Forget What You Heard. And then, the very next week I preached um How to Protect the Church from Biblical Malpractice. And, you know, I lay I laid out a series of principles and tools um for doing this very same thing.

[00:56:07]Um and so, I invite people to go there.

[00:56:09]I I'm sorry I don't have all the all the uh uh insights that I shared in those messages there, but I think they'll help folks.

[00:56:16]>> Indeed. Indeed. Pastor, in the black church, as you already know, we have a strong LGBT+ community, right? And for so long, uh for myself even, growing up seeing it, they'll be the choir director or involved in the church, but it's like you can't or they can't openly be gay.

[00:56:33]Or um I've heard clergy people say, "Well, we're not going to talk about that." So, it's like it's this open secret, but I can't accept all of you.

[00:56:42]For us as a black church, or for people that are just black people who just so happen to go to church together, right?

[00:56:47]How do we better embrace the LGBT+ community? Because I see too often that we have cousins, family members, brothers, sisters who are gay, but then when we show up to church, simmer that down. Yeah.

[00:56:59]Well, it's a good question. You know over the course of my pastorate, the course of my theological studies, it became clear to me that it's important to distinguish between those who are homophobic and those in the church who are really just trying to live out their understanding of scripture.

[00:57:20]Because for most Protestants, for Protestants, scripture is our source of authority on matters of faith and practice. And so, most people are really just trying to be faithful to their understanding of scripture. What they need are tools to um have a broader understanding of what that is. And over the course of my pastorate, I have given people, you know, those tools to understand that these six passages.

[00:57:51]The passages that the church historically has used to make the false claim that the Bible regards homosexuality as an abomination, as a sin. That none of these texts are condemnations of consensual same-gender loving people. None of them are condemnations of consensual same-gender loving sex acts. These texts are condemnations of acts of sexual rape, violence, and exploitation. All of them.

[00:58:23]Um whether it's the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, this is clearly a critique of gang rape.

[00:58:33]Not only that, in the sermon that I preached on what entitled What Happened at Sodom, I helped people to understand that the crowd at Sodom was not just a crowd of men.

[00:58:46]It's a very subtle, yet significant insight because most interpreters presume that when the text says something like, "All of the men of the city are outside of Lot's house," they assume that grammatical gender equals actual gender.

[00:59:02]But we know that you know, grammatical gender from our from the English language or many languages does not equal actual gender.

[00:59:12]You can see a group of women and say, "How are you guys doing?"

[00:59:16]What is that? Grammatical gender does not equal actual gender.

[00:59:21]Um so, at Sodom, it would be preferable if translators said all of the people of the city were there.

[00:59:30]Because in the prior chapter, I believe in Genesis 18, when when there is this negotiation between finding uh the righteous people in Sodom, it's not just to find 10 righteous males, it's to find 10 or five righteous people.

[00:59:54]And if the women are at home, then the city was would be saved.

[01:00:00]But the term that's translated the men of the city, it's the people of the city, right? And the um immorality of Sodom was for this crowd that consisted of young and old, the text says, men and women to want to violate uh Lot's guests. This is a clear um critique of gang rape.

[01:00:25]Same thing that happens in Judges 9, although it's a a crowd that rapes a young girl.

[01:00:32]Leviticus 18, Leviticus 20, you know, a man shall not lie with mankind. Any interpreter should ask, why does the text say a man shall not lie with mankind?

[01:00:43]Why doesn't it say a man shall not lie with a man?

[01:00:48]Right?

[01:00:50]That's because when you go to the Hebrew, it doesn't say a man shall not lie with a man. It's two different Hebrew words.

[01:00:57]It says a man, which is the Hebrew word for ish.

[01:01:00]The Hebrew word ish shall not lie with a zakar.

[01:01:05]What is a zakar?

[01:01:07]A zakar is a male temple prostitute.

[01:01:10]A male temple devotee, a male temple worshiper.

[01:01:14]This is very clearly the focal point of the priestly tradition of Leviticus. It tells you in the prior verse, I believe in Leviticus 18:21, that they are focused on practices for those who worship the god Molech.

[01:01:32]And temple prostitution, it was believed, was one of the practices in many of these pagan temples.

[01:01:40]And so the priestly tradition of Leviticus is admonishing Israelite men not to participate in this system of religious sexual exploitation by having sex with these male temple prostitutes, who are oftentimes males caught in slavery. They could oftentimes be young boys, people who were forced to do this, you know, not from a place of of um, you know, their pure volition.

[01:02:10]And so Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 is not about homosexuality.

[01:02:17]It's not a critique of people um um being in consensual same-gender-loving relationships. And giving people those tools and insights is important for people who really desire to understand scripture in a better way. And having that insight, I believe, can help them have a better response to their child, their grandchild, their neighbors, or their colleagues or co-workers.

[01:02:44]Um same is the case for other passages in the New Testament. It would be preferable some of the most horrible translations are some of these English translations that say things like homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This term is not in the New Testament.

[01:03:04]It would be preferable if the translators used terms like pedophiles, sex traffickers, um you know, uh adult males who are having sex with young boys.

[01:03:20]This is clo- more closely akin to what these texts are critiquing.

[01:03:26]And so I think just that by giving people the tools, even Romans 1 that talks about um is about idolatry, is not that text is not even written to people that we might think of as being same-gender-loving. It's written to heterosexuals because you can't exchange what you don't have.

[01:03:48]And in these, I just preached a sermon on this, and folks should get it. It's entitled Before Diddy Did It, in which I help people to understand that this text is written to heterosexuals who in order to go along with very powerful uh social and economic and professional pressures, you know, participated in same-sex orgies and rituals.

[01:04:21]It's a very uh the context is one that we can relate to. I should say Before Diddy Did It, allegedly.

[01:04:30]Right? Um that's important.

[01:04:32]Um we also have other contexts, you know, that help us envisage what happened there, you know, like um in prison culture, what happens in you know, um unfortunately, in prison culture, where uh men, you know, for protection, to just stay alive, you know, they're forced to to exchange what might be their natural orientation and to participate in male-on-male sex acts.

[01:05:02]And so we have to teach people. And I think once we uh teach people, we can, you know, help them have a more compassionate approach to our uh LGBTQ+ um members in the body of Christ. And I I help people to understand that we don't have to supp- We don't I don't support the Q+ community despite the Bible. Like that's a prevailing uh approach even among many welcoming or progressive Christians.

[01:05:33]You know, they start with the presumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality.

[01:05:39]And so they'll say, well, we'll just suspend that. We'll We'll Yeah, we will uh affirm the radical love ethic of Jesus. Jesus loved everybody. So even though the Bible teaches that, we'll We'll do so despite the Bible. We'll love everyone. But I don't support the Q+ community despite the Bible. I do so because it because of it.

[01:06:01]Because these texts are not condemning who people are. That's the worst thing that we can do as a church to make people feel that their humanity is somehow an affront to the heart of God.

[01:06:20]I'm about to, you know, um preach a sermon soon that really teases out a passage that I don't think most people really take a look at, and that's Matthew 19:11-12.

[01:06:34]People oftentimes focus on Jesus saying, you know, talking about marriage, a man shall leave his, you know, mother and father be joined to his wife in the earlier part of that chapter. But then Jesus goes on to talk about a category of people for whom that doesn't apply.

[01:06:51]And he talks about eunuchs.

[01:06:54]And he says, some are born this way, some were made this way, and some do so um as a commitment to the kingdom of God.

[01:07:04]Well, while it's true that homosexuality is a creation from the 19th century, some modern creation, the term homosexuality, homosexuals are not, you know, and I think that when we look at who eunuchs were in the ancient world, these were males who were not a sexual threat to women. Kings and wealthy men kept eunuchs around their harems and their wives because they were not sexual threats uh to their wives, to their daughters, and their their concubines.

[01:07:43]And Jesus says, some were born this way.

[01:07:52]It's a very short yet significant statement that I think Jesus makes there in Matthew chapter 19, I believe, verses 11 uh and 12 that I think goes over many people's heads.

[01:08:11]He Some Some were made this way. We know that men, if they were caught in war, they could be castrated.

[01:08:20]Uh he says, others made a spiritual vow to to the kingdom, you know, a vow of celibacy. And so there are models for that. But he says, some were born this way.

[01:08:31]And so I think that when we give people the tools, we can help people to understand that we can have a different approach to our children, to our neighbors, classmates, um think that really seeks to reflect the heart of God. And you know, it's not easy as a pastor, you know, kind of talking about this stuff, because what a lot of people do when they hear things that they don't understand, they engage in ad hominem attacks.

[01:09:02]They say things like, oh, you know, he's just preaching this series because he was divorced. Or he's talking about this fornication thing because maybe he's having sex.

[01:09:13]Or maybe he's gay, right? That's why he's, you know, talking about this stuff. These These types of, you know, ad hominem anti-intellectual attacks don't threaten me. They You know, I'm clear about who I am. Um Um, telling someone that they're gay is not you know, is not a it's not an insult. Right? I'm not gay.

[01:09:41]Um, um, but these kind of anti-intellectual attacks don't address the heart of the interpretive theological social issues that we're addressing today.

[01:09:57]We are in a world today where young children um, wrestle with suicide, suicidal ideation.

[01:10:05]Where parents and grandparents, you know, you know, wrestle with how should they um, respond to their uh, son who has a crush on his classmate or their daughter who wants to bring home uh, her girlfriend for Thanksgiving.

[01:10:24]Well, what we should do is love them.

[01:10:28]Embrace them.

[01:10:29]Welcome them.

[01:10:31]Um, and treat them like we'd want to be treated ourselves. And we can do that um, without feeling as if we are contravening scripture. We're not.

[01:10:44]Pastor, you have been absolutely phenomenal this entire conversation.

[01:10:47]Only got one more question for you.

[01:10:48]>> Sure.

[01:10:49]How do we as a people get more comfortable with questioning God? Not in this bad way of, you know, hating God, but actually wanting to learn, being eager and just questioning things.

[01:10:59]>> Questioning God, right.

[01:11:01]Well, I think first, you know, really ground our faith journey in, you know, Jesus's question on the cross.

[01:11:15]He raised questions.

[01:11:18]So, Jesus can raise questions and ask God why, then we can.

[01:11:22]But the other thing I think is important is that we need to really clarify the quest. I remember when I was uh, 10 or 11 years old and we were in Sunday school and um, we were being taught about the Trinity.

[01:11:38]Man, I didn't understand that thing. I was like, man, how can three be one?

[01:11:41]And I never forget going home, asking my mother, you know, mom, you know, like, how can three be one?

[01:11:49]And my mother said, Delman, don't question God.

[01:11:52]Right?

[01:11:54]And I think she meant well when she said that, right? But over time I realized that there's a difference between, you know, raising a question about the doctrines of the church and questioning God.

[01:12:08]See, I believe that I can be agnostic or disbelieve a range of doctrinal traditions of the church and not question God, right? So, oftentimes I think what people may be wrestling with are the received embedded theology that we've inherited from our particular churches and congregations.

[01:12:33]And I think that it's okay for us to question, to doubt um, you know, a range of things that we're told and taught. And I actually think that the canon of the Bible really gives us permission to do that. Like, think about this.

[01:12:47]The church fathers gave us a canon with four completely different gospels in it.

[01:12:53]Now, in our minds we have harmonized the stories in the gospels, but when you consider them in isolation, which they were, the Markan community did not know about the Lukan community, which did not know about the Johannine community which did not know about the Matthean community.

[01:13:12]They have four totally different witnesses to Jesus. Different chronologies, different geographies, different uh, literary, rhetorical intents and focus. I mean, think about the Gospel of Mark has no resurrection narrative.

[01:13:28]It's not in there.

[01:13:30]That and Mark is the oldest gospel that we have. That means that the earliest and oldest Christian community hadn't developed this theology yet of resurrection in the 50s and the 60s of the first decade of the common era. This is a kind of later development.

[01:13:50]But my point is that the church fathers gave us a canon with with these different witnesses which says to me that in the church we can have unity without uniformity. That diversity is okay in the body of Christ. That we don't have to all think alike, look alike, believe the same in order to be a part of the same community.

[01:14:15]And I think that it would be great in our churches if we encourage dialogue, if we encourage debate, if we invited people to share with their pastors, with their Sunday school teachers, and with one another. What are your questions?

[01:14:30]What are your doubts, right? And really see that as okay as a healthy part of what it means to be a believer. You know, God doesn't require us to get it right.

[01:14:45]That would be science.

[01:14:48]God invites us to just be faithful.

[01:14:54]And I think that if we are faithful we'll understand it better by and by.

[01:15:01]Mic drop with that. Dr. Delman Coates, where can everybody follow you and keep up with you? Come to church, too. Yeah.

[01:15:08]>> [clears throat] >> Man, thank you for that. I'm really blessed to serve Mount Enon Baptist Church in Clinton, Maryland, right outside of Washington, D.C. They can go to our website mountenonbaptist.org, m t e n n o n baptist.org.

[01:15:21]Follow me on all the social media handles. I am Delman Coates.

[01:15:26]Um, and you know, the thing that I'm really passionate about is advancing the core insights of modern monetary theory.

[01:15:32]And we talked about it earlier. And so, we have a website um, where you can go to understand what that is about. Our campaign is the Our Money Campaign and our website is ourmoneyus.org.

[01:15:48]Um, people can also get sermons and uh, sermon notes and daily devotionals by going to my personal ministry delmancoates.org.

[01:15:59]Um, get the app, follow me, and um, man, thank you for having me on.

[01:16:04]>> appreciate you, doc, cuz I got about 50 more questions for you. So, you know, you are always >> welcome, you know, anytime that you touch down >> to come through.

[01:16:12]>> I enjoyed this, brother. Keep up all the great work. We need your voice, too, cuz you are a breath of fresh air. Because, you know, people always have this negative connotation towards the black church. Seeing a great black preacher talking about current issues. Salute you. Keep going. Keep up all the great work.

[01:16:27]>> you, man. Peace. Y'all make sure, man, to follow Dr. Coates on social media. If you are in the DMV area, you already know what you got to do. You got to pull up. But make sure to like, comment, and subscribe. We appreciate you guys for always tuning in. Another classic conversation. Until next time. God bless. Be host Caleb Smith. Peace.