Syntropic agroforestry is a farming approach that combines high-density linear planting of perennials with annual crops, emphasizing active management and ecological balance rather than 'set and forget' methods. This system builds soil fertility through root exudates and canopy cover, provides natural pest management through biodiversity, and creates resilience against extreme weather events like hurricanes. The approach integrates multiple enterprises (fruits, vegetables, poultry, nursery) to diversify revenue streams and reduce economic risk, while maintaining ecological sustainability through minimal external inputs and closed-loop nutrient cycling.
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SYNTROPIC AGROFORESTY INTERVIEW w/ Mike Garcia - A dive into his operation in FLORIDAAdded:
Hi everybody. Um today we have Mike Garcia here who's a centropic farmer from Florida. He's got a a farm called Ever Oak Farm and u he manages an intensive market garden amidst a centropic agroforestry system. Um, also you have a poultry operation and you sell some yeah fruits and vegetables and you also do a bit of consulting and designing around the area and um, yeah, I think you're really a good person to dive into like all the logistics of like how you run your operation and all. So it'd be really cool to really dive into that with you. And um, >> do you want to add anything to this uh, very short intro I I gave you there?
>> Yeah, let me go ahead and elaborate more about uh, what else we do? So yeah, we're located in central Florida. Uh we're in Orlando. Um literally 10 minutes outside from the downtown area.
Uh so we're pretty urban. We're on a three acre lot. Um about 2 and a half acres is actually in in production. Half an acre is u annual vegetables and then the rest are our perennial agroforestry systems where we have poultry integrated with all of our fruit. Um we primarily our main sales outlet and our main way we generate revenue here on the farm is through our CSA. Uh for those who don't know what a CSA is community supported agriculture. Um we typically allow 80 fruits and veggie shares, uh 40 chicken shares, and then about to bump it up to about 15 egg shares. Um, so all in all, right now we're sitting at 93 CSA members and that's a mix of um people with chicken and veggie shares and whatnot. We also sell a little bit to restaurants. Um, yeah, the idea is to have a diverse farm. So I have all these diverse operations and diverse crops and and keeping it as diverse as possible because I'm a big believer of diversity builds resilience. So not only in the way we plant our systems but also um how we make it economically viable and having these different enterprises um which we can get more details later in this conversation about what we get into. Um we also are certified naturally grown on our fruits and veggies. For those who don't know, it's a organization here in the United States that's operates under the same standards as the USDA organic but without the bureaucrats of the USDA.
It's amazing grassroot organization here just an alternative for farms that do direct to consumer sales. Um in in the sense of my context um so that's another organization or certification that we're that we're part of. And uh yeah, we've been around for seven this is our seventh season. We're getting ready to wrap up our seventh season here. Um, I will say I did not always practice agroforestry. Aggroforestry came a little bit in a couple years after I came onto the property. Uh, my background is originally in the culinary arts. I was actually working towards becoming a chef before I got into farming. And all my farming ventures have uh actually been me self-taught uh reading books, watching YouTube videos, Google search consistently and just diving into it. uh through my culinary career um couple years within I started questioning our whole entire food system and was very fascinated of how agriculture works and how our food how um and how our food system um operates and the complexity there is that goes into it and all the different forms of agriculture. So I started picking up backyard gardening in 2012. uh started a little four four foot by eight foot garden bed in my downtown home at the time that I was leasing and uh yeah then over the years it just kept growing. I became more passionate about growing than I did with cooking and that's where I decided to make the leap and I dove deep into market gardening um and especially urban market gardening and doing the multi-plot things. I was also very deep into permaculture. I had a whole food forest at that time, a very not too, it was pretty productive permaculture type food forest, very influenced by that. Ripped it down and got into market gardening and just needed something more viable that I could actually puss out a volume of of veggies to bring to market. Um, which then land into where I'm at now, a few years after that. Uh, we established Ever Oak back in 2019. I'm still on lease land. So, the three acres I'm on is actually lease. Uh, I have an amazing relationship with my landlord. Uh, people also make the comments like, "Man, you have these elaborate perennial systems that you're not really going to see the fruition till years later." Um, you feel comfortable that I'm like, I definitely feel comfortable that. And at the end of the day, it's like even if it's here for two or five years, at least it's going to be a little bit better. I'm going to leave this place better than what it was left to me. And I think that's the idea is to always leave this place uh wherever you leave to leave it better than than it was prior. Um and it never hurts to plant a tree.
>> So it's only going to it's it just makes everything much better. But yeah, that's a that's a long intro there.
>> That's pretty good. That that explains kind of your path and all that. That that's cool. And uh >> yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean my my first question I always ask is like what what made you actually go into central agroforestry?
>> Oh man. Uh so yeah so when I came into like I told you I got into permaculture but permaculture there was a lot of flaws in those design I eventually learned what permaculture really is and it's I think it's a way of look it's more of a design not a little bit of a design framework and having like um what would I oh what's a good word to describe it it's gives you the tools and research of be able to preserve like to look through the lens like a different way and to go through these different obstacles. But you never see a a very productive permaculture farm. So I always abandoned that. But I still hold a lot of the principles with me. Um especially like people care, earth care, and and some of the other principles that go along with it. Um I think it's a way of life. That's where I was going. Permaculture is the way of life and way of being. And then getting into uh market gardening, I was like, man, this is great. So just classic simple organic biointensive market gardening a lot of compost bringing in compost um straight tight rolls high turnover rotation. So, when I came into this land here where I'm at, um, I was very open and exposed and I was like, man, there needs to be another option out there and and like I want to incorporate more perennials. And a buddy of mine back in 2020 told me started talking to me about uh, centropic aggroforestry. I'm like, "Oh, this is fascinating." I actually originally went down the whole entire watched a lot of the aggroforestry academy guys on YouTube and started there and I was like, "Oh man, this is the answer." I just love the the practicality of agroforestry of the linear planting, the high density linear plantings and doing this. So then I actually started retrofitting my whole entire farm. It's like how can I retrofit this into where I'm at now? and especially having this idea of going beyond sustainability and not having to rely on a tremendous amount of external inputs. So there was a lot of beautiful things that I going through this journey of centropy um and even going down on a on a spiritual aspect of it because I it became more than just growing uh food in a forest. It's like there's a lot of I feel like internal stuff you kind of go deeper into and look into something beyond yourself. um especially if you dive deeper into the the the towels of the comprehensive life and centrop and uh yeah I felt like this is the solution. This is literally uh Erns uh I felt like really broke the code and or consolidated or it made it more digestible to be able to learn these principles and techniques that made it practical um on a level.
So, it's cool to see a lot of these practitioners kind of learn this and refining his process to fit it into many different contexts. And that's also what I love too because it just gives you a general frameworks. Like once you learn techniques and principles, it can be applicable anywhere in the world. Um, which is the great thing about it. I feel like some people are like, "Oh, that only works in the tropics, subtropics." I'm like, "No, it's there's so many folks now doing in tempered climates in all different parts of different types of tempered climates.
It's just understanding how our earth functions and how ecology functions and using that to our advantage to wherever it may be. Um, so going through all these rabbit holes of centropy and trying to learn every bit of it, connecting with practitioners around the world, um, and accelerating, I've never had a chance to actually visit some elaborate systems. I've only lived and learned uh from being on being on the computer and just talking to other other practitioners. Um and uh it's nice that it's how accessible it is now more so than what it was what six seven years ago like there's more information out there now on centropic agroforestry than there is.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I remember even me starting four years ago, I remember there was very little available and I remember people telling me like uh you know I had this interview with uh with Joshua Joshua Anderson.
>> Yeah, >> friend of yours and he was telling me that back then when he started uh about 15 years ago if I'm not wrong um there was only videos in Portuguese so he had to like translate everything basically >> and uh I felt like when I started as well like there was very little available but now there's loads of videos about it.
>> Yeah, it's a lot more content. It's like exponential. Every year there's more.
>> So, this is kind of thing really helps get started >> much more easily these days.
>> And I al Yeah, and I love that people are showing it in different climates and different contexts as well. Uh because nature's never in a box and it's nice to see these techniques being applicable to many different things. Um but yeah, centropy I feel like is definitely this the answer to our agricultural food system and uh yeah it's what I love because it really emphasized management and management being that big principle and I think that's where like if you go into permaculture you don't ever talk too much about management it's that those guys are always like set it and forget it but if you think about it nature is never stagnant it's never set it forget it there are certain animals are always interacting in these ecosystems and that we have to be those animals that interacted within the ecosystem that we're planting to be able to accelerate these things forward into secession and uh and to wherever we needed to manage and navigate it to the context that we needed to be. Um but yeah man it's uh kind of drifted a little bit from the question.
>> I know it's totally fun this drifting aloud here. Yeah. I think this is where the most interesting conversations end up and and it's true like this is something also really cool talk about like the fact that it's true that in permaculture a lot of people just don't even speak about pruning. They're like set and forget >> and you have for example the Miaaki approach. It's like uh oh after 2 years you don't need to take care of it you know it's like everything's going to like you know take care of itself but I have a maki planted it's like four years old and I still need to do plenty of weeding there and it's uh it's just like it's not working like that you know it's like uh that that the interactions with plants are always like um >> um you know they always come with with megapora they always come with different types of animals insects whatever that do disturbance >> and without that. Yeah. I mean, it's it's not understanding nature to just be like, "Oh, set it and leave it." Because as humans as well, like primates, >> they're the prime like they're the best example of uh of the animals that do like really well disturbance. Like for example, gorillas, they they construct a new nest every single day in the forest, you know, >> and uh and yeah, they just like prune with their hands.
>> Yeah. And that's what I tell folks because uh we interrupted the natural ecosystem. So we lost a lot of these animals that would interact and also we keep them out of these systems as well.
You don't have deers thinning out the saplings of the trees to make room for the other ones to go through. You don't hogs coming through and having that disturbance and whatnot goes on and on. So um there's so going to centropy of having that one big principle of management. Um that's I think the the big thing that was like yeah that is is so true that we have to follow through. We we need to >> we're animals in these systems and we need to interact with them.
>> Yeah. Exactly. And there's also that part as well with like natural disturbances. So for example fire >> like people hate fire but in truth there two types of fires. There's a hot fires and the cool fires. So um I was actually watching a video that Scott Hall put on YouTube and it was him like observing a forest fire in uh in Australia. I've never seen a forest fire, but that was the example of a cool fire and it's one that doesn't go up in the canopy and all that, you know, and this is how how eucalyptus and acacia forest get managed actually. And a lot of people are like, "Ah, we should be against that." But when you're against that, you create hot fires in the end and it makes it all worse >> in a way. Yeah. There's uh oh man, there's a term for ecological landscapes that require or benefit from fires cuz uh Florida it's um >> parro something, I guess. Yes. Yeah.
Pyro something and uh because Florida is also like that too. We actually beneficial we do a lot of prescribed burns here in Florida because it actually benefits our our ecosystem.
It's part of the the flora of that that how this ecosystem function is like lightning strikes force fire goes through. Even a lot of the pines need that combustion the fire and the forest canopy to go through. So, um, yeah, it's funny how some people look at these things as big natural disasters, but it can if it's not kept up with, then it's poorly managed systems. I guess in California is like one example of poorly managed force forestry that's happening there. Yeah.
>> That they they don't allow fires to happen.
>> Yeah. And now it's so much accumulation.
There's so much accumulation of their >> now the fuel load's so much higher and then it goes into the hot fire versus what if it was kept up. with a cold fire.
>> Yeah. I mean, this is really that part there like first off like the monocultures of like pine and eucalyptus. First off in nature it doesn't work like that. Like you can see even in eucalyptus forest in Australia there's still grass growing through >> and um >> and uh this idea that they create herbicide, they create that this and that. Usually a lot of the time it's overg grazing or it's like poor management or it's cutting down or it's Roundup. It it can be so many different reasons. And and and yeah, also we have to take into account that pines and eucalyptus don't have really a um an animal that disturbs them in a certain way that it's not the same. True.
Eucalyptus, I guess, koalas do a job, but like it's nothing that's going to take down a massive trunk, I suppose.
>> No.
>> And uh yeah, I mean there's a bit of that from koalas for sure. And then pines, I guess there's these um there's these uh how do you call them?
processinary caterpillar that eat the the tops sometimes of the new growth.
>> But in truth, there's no such thing that creates a massive disturbance. So, you kind of need to bring that the biomass to the ground. You kind of need fire or you need uh wind or you need hurricanes like you get yourself in Florida >> and and people hate these things, but that's just how it is. That's how >> keeps checks and balance.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> It keeps the system healthy. So, >> yeah. Yeah. actually. Um well, it makes me think uh I was going to ask you some more logistical questions at first.
Yeah, I think that makes me really um think that we should talk a little bit more like about um about hurricanes cuz um you have a lot of these here in Florida and um I would really like to know how you having your centropic tree lines really benefits from um yeah benefits uh and buffers against such events which I guess there's no such thing as everything's going to be protected but I guess you have much less loss that must happen. Can you explain can you explain a bit more about that?
>> Yes. So going back into why I also love centropy is just the high density within the lines but the different secession of crops that go within it. So the reason behind also adopting it centropic aggroforestry was also hurricanes being a factor and we also deal with extreme colds. So extreme heats extreme colds and extreme weathers. Uh and now we're in a drought as well. Uh so Florida we're experiencing to every extreme. So the peak hurricane season for us where it's super active is September and October. And typically that's the time that we start planting our fall veggies.
And every time I planted fall veggies before doing these tree lines, um they would get hammered. And I was like, and then there was incidents that I'm like, man, CSA starts in two weeks and my fields flooded. So, but now there's certain crops that I grow that can take some of the wind. Um, papayas really can't. They can kind of take a little bit, but some of the dwarf type bananas that we grow. So, I was like, "Okay, cool. Now I have different fruits that even if a hurricane comes through and they fall in, well, you can still eat green bananas. You can have some green papayas and whatnot." So, it gave me that diversity of still having food and and something to bring to market and to fulfill CSA. But, um, a lot of times with the a strong hurricane's going to wipe through or anything, so it doesn't matter. But, if we have those small storms or these outer bands, having these little windbreaks and interplanting and alleycropping annual vegetables with these perennial tree lines help give that that buffer and that little break. and also from the extreme um heat at that point. But at times I am pruning by September I do prune heavy since I've noticed the pattern and going back into just recognizing like um our natural ecosystem patterns of certain hurricanes like hurricanes are coming through to prune and and reset and bring down systems and to have that ecological disturbance. So I try to come through and be that hurricane and select the branches that I want through. So typically we do start opening up the system by our Equinox. So around September 21st, 22nd, um we do do a heavy pruning um and open up the canopies a bit so we can actually allow air flow to go through. So there's like this balance of learning or I'm still even learning the timing of when to prune in my area. Um, so because if you prune too late, you don't take advantage of the tail end of the rain season and the heat to have that little bit of a regrowth, that good regrowth to have for frost protection during the winter months. Uh, but if you but if you do it too early, then you have such a great regrowth happening, but then a hurricane comes through and some of that could just get impacted. So, I'm still learning the timing of when the best to prune in the in in my context. Um, but going back into the the hurricanes and having a diverse of different fruiting crops within the tree lines and the annuals, it just also helps with the diversity with like being able to bring stuff into market. So >> I don't know. Yeah, that's all I have to really touch base on that. Um, and yeah, you have a little bit of wind buffer, but at the same time, like when you're hitting, uh, 100 mile power m 100 mile per hour winds, um, there's a lot of things getting brought down. But that's over time I've been noticing too incorporating more palms. We're not an area where we can grow coconut because we're too cold. But I've been observing more of and really embracing a lot of Florida's landscape and just going more of the wild areas and some of these botanical gardens and whatnot and just seeing patterns and uh palm trees are very common throughout throughout the whole entire landscape of Florida and those are the things that usually takes those winds. As time goes on, I've actually been wanting to incorporate more palm trees as a as a support for our systems to maybe help buffer and create more of a little bit of wall for the the more tender vegetables that we start planting in between that we alley crop in between these tree lines.
>> Mhm. Yeah.
>> Well, I see as well that Yeah. I mean, behind you, you got loads of bananas and I bananas if they get knocked down, I mean, they'll regrow from the comb anyway. So, >> yeah, I guess. But I do focus a lot of dwarf varieties. So they do take a win pretty good because they end up getting like pretty stocky base. The leaves get hammered, but a lot of times the the >> you can have um some of the I've had bananas survive almost category 3 hurricanes. Um >> wow.
>> But it's usually the shorter, stockier ones, the dwarf types, and that's what I primarily focus because they also tend to be cold hearty because we do get pretty cold and they can and we do get a lot of wind. So, and that's what I've noticed. I don't grow tall bananas um here where I'm at in central Florida, only in Georgia varieties. So, nothing past um typically things that grow about 8 feet, no more than 8t tall. So, what is that about 2 and a half meters at most?
>> Something like that. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. I see. Well, actually, you were talking a little bit about like like buffers in that way. I was also wondering uh what what the impact is um >> in terms of like has it improved your let's say profitability on the farm less let's say labor for example and requiring less compost or or things like that is there anything that you could say that uh yeah having these tree lines and support species in place like I mean how it buffers your profitability and your farm your sustainability and in the sense as well obviously you have extra fruits compared to only having veggies.
So, if you can just expand a bit on that.
>> Yeah, it depends on which system you're talking on the farm. Uh, I have pretty much three bigger systems uh that I've developed throughout the farm that kind of service their own function. Um, if we're just talking about the market garden, uh, when we we alleycrop veggies, uh, we're still bringing in compost. I make compost on site. Um, I still bring in wood chips. uh I bring since I'm in the city in the context those materials are easy for me to get through. So I'll get arburous wood chips as a carbon material and then all my nitrogen materials produced here on the farm. Um so I use rabbit manure. Uh we harvest poultry on the farm. We operate under um uh the PL exemption 9432s which here in the United States it gives the states the rights to regulate it. So, I'm regulated at a state level that we're allowed to process up to 20,000 birds on site and sell directly to consumers. Um, you can't retail it elsewhere, but you can sell directly to consumers and restaurants with this. So, we do process poultry on site where we harvest the blood, guts, feathers, which then gets into the compost, um, which then gets turned we so we do hot composting. So I I always monitor around 140 degrees Fahrenheit and uh flip it every try and flip it every 3 to 6 weeks but for the most part maintaining that temperature. Um but alleycropping uh and when it comes into the management of uh veggies I don't really practice a lot of true cropy within the alley of it. I'm still using minimal tillillage. Um, so after a crop's grown, I'll flail mow it.
And then I'll use the I have I run a BCS with the tiller with called the PDR, which you have a control of going like one inch deep or you can go 12 in deep.
Uh, I have the foil mower and rotary plow. And I do that because there's a couple of tools that I use on my farm that just makes the efficiency of the of planting like direct seeding crops because I use a direct cedar and then using a paper pot transpler which is a tool that you plant ant plants into these paper chains and then this tool stretches out the paper change throughout the whole bed. Um and how also look at it is when you're market gardening you're always keeping your garden in placenta. You're never you're refraining it from moving forward in secession. So you're always keeping it in placenta and holding it back. Um so with that being said, most placenta species are usually coming through with ecolog ecological disturbance happening.
So the my mechanized ecological disturbance is like an equivalent of a landslide. So I'm always having that mini landslide happening in the market garden which I'll address it and bring in compost after and do that. The tree lines helps a lot with having that ecological buffer. So during the hotter season there's more shade it's keeping it cool and then on the warmer uh so yeah warmer season cool um cooler season um keeping a lot keeping it warmer so there's a lot less frost that touches through um and also to have that habitat for uh insects because I'm also zero spray on the farm it's been three years now and this is the beautiful thing diving deep into centropy and understanding the function of pest and disease and what their service is to the ecosystem and what they're showing us that it's a pest and disease is a stress response.
So either too much or too um too much of something or too little of something or maybe the environment is not right for the that that one crop to do because uh it's there for the optimization of life.
though it's either going to remove it out of secession or remove it out of the system so the next best thing can move forward into secession or it's going to that plant's going to overcome that and come out on the other side even stronger. So it's there for the optimization of life. However, that at least that's how I perceive that um um that at least um principle or the philosophy within and um so understanding that I want to make sure I'm cultivating the space for all insects. There's no discrimination.
Who's if to tell me if this insect's bad or good? Um, and then also if you spray even the organic stuff, it doesn't pick and choose which insects you're going and then you're constantly throwing off the balance of the ecosystem. So, in the beginning, it is a little rough to watch some of your plants chew on. But, I've noticed over the years, the more healthier my soil gets, the more I cultivate the environment. And also, timing is essential of when certain crops are doing better than others. Um, that's where I I try to I've learned to like just let it work its way out. uh works works in balance work the balance within the system.
>> Um so that's what and it also helps with water uh because I do over I do irrigate the farm. Um I'm in the business. I like this is my livelihood. I don't have any other external income or whatnot. So I just like having that reassurance of like I need irrigation especially we're growing veggies during our dry season. Um, and Florida is pretty abundant with water.
Even though we're in the drought, you dig about a meter, two meters into the ground and you hit water. Our water table's high. Um, I run two shallow pump, uh, two shallow wells that are 45 ft deep. And, um, yeah. So, with having these tree lines in this ecological buffer, less evaporation, less wind drift. Also, you're irrigating. The tree lines are getting irrigated. They're capturing, holding that water into the landscape. uh you don't have this extreme wind coming through misting taking it off and uh less evap and like I said less evaporation because the more trees we had and the more of the canopy a lot of that water is staying within um so that's the perk and how I use the those tree lines to my advantage at least with a market garden >> I I assume that well just before we go into the the poultry I assume that your soil here also in Florida is mostly sandy so so like it doesn't retain >> the moisture as much So irrigation is like if it was clay maybe it wouldn't be required.
>> Correct. Um I Yeah. And that's where it's increasing organic matter. I also do a tremendous amount of cover cropping during the warm season. So that's why we'll hit it our cool season. So our growing season for annuals uh annual vegetable is from October to June. So we spend May uh all of the summer of um pretty much June, July and uh August and early parts of September just cover cropping. Um so we'll do a lot of cover cropping then and uh with the compost helps and I also do make biochar here on the farm. I just started implementing that. Um primarily using bamboo to make the biochar. It's I learned from another practitioner here >> or a practitioner that's really big into um biochar and using bamboo. So u the bamboo though so the biochar we're also using the chicken bruder to inoculate.
Uh so that also helps with the smell and absorbing the excess nitrogen from the manure and also from the rabbits that we keep here. Um when they we collect have collection bins where the manure is at where we fill in biochar and also uh we to be able to capture all their urine as well. So we inoculate our biochar through those two processes of the rabbits and the chicken bruers which then goes into the compost gets aged in the compost and then the compost gets spread out. So our compost also will have a little bit of biochar spread throughout and that's how we're also building that so uh that healthy soil as well.
>> Um so I'm adapting and and many different farming techniques and practices. I'm not one to be very dogmatic. Um context really dictates our decision. Wherever you're located will determine. It's nice to have all these different uh tools, resources, techniques uh out there in your back pockets. It's just learning to when it's um when it's applicable to that that context to be able to use it. So there's a time and place for everything. And then sometimes you you really have these certain ideologies and you really want to try to do it, but it's maybe it's not very real and practical now. And sometimes it's good to kind of put that ideology in your back pocket for a year or two to be able to build it up to that point and do that because when you're first starting up a farm, there's a lot of things against you and it's hard. So, and you just have to do what makes sense financially at first. Um, and uh, yeah.
So, trailed off a little bit of that question, too.
>> Totally fine. Totally fine. That's good.
>> Yeah. I mean, actually, I remember we were like when we were on a phone call like a couple weeks ago, you you were telling me a lot that Yeah. the farming that you do is really not about dogma.
Because in a way if you do tropic farming and you do your purest, you have a purest approach to it, it's like, oh yeah, you got to produce all the feed on the properly for the poultry and all that. That's that's that's asking too much. You know, >> I found that I' I've seen I've seen like uh some people saying this like I'm going to do a system for chickens like that and I'm like >> but do you realize the amount of grain, the amount of feed that you need to produce for them and then you need to have that all year round? I mean, yeah, maybe it's great if you if you have a big field and then you can get uh yeah, I mean, you could do a sort of like operation like that. I don't know, like with three lines every 20 mters and have grain grow in between and then have silos to uh to like >> do that, but that takes so much.
>> That's a lot of Exactly.
>> that that's a niche that needs to be filled by someone, not by uh uh not by yourself. I think it's too much to want to be selfh sufficient on everything. No one has that kind of money and uh yeah >> and time insanity, but you could eventually grow that >> like and that's even growing a a system complex enough that maybe you don't even need grain, but you only could have you got to figure out how much you would have to produce and how many birds you can feed. So at least going back into our poultry system, it's like we're still supplementing grains, but like at least we're using 20% less grain and which is which is great because then or 20 30% of their it's coming from forage.
>> So >> and uh versus 100% grain. So that's where but over the time it would be nice to learn to be able to grain farm or maybe not even use a lot of grain. And I also tell folks it's context dictate. If I was a homestead a homesteader and the space I have all I need is about maybe 15 birds, 20 birds for myself then and then I have plenty of room and the complexity of this system could pretty much sustain their their egg productivity for at least myself. But if I'm in the business making eggs, these birds we we use hybrid breeds uh laying eggs. Uh so they're very productive on pushing out a tremendous uh amount of eggs, but they also need a lot of that energy and resource. So how you going to make up that energy and resources at the end of the day when it comes into farming in general? Um and learn this through centropy. We're just managing energy >> and shifting and moving energy around.
And you got to learn like if energy is leaving the farm or you this takes up this many energy, how you're making that up elsewhere or capturing and making that complexity of energy and and moving into that.
>> Yeah. Because it's not just the energy of the plants, it's the energy of ourselves too. Because I mean there's this certain task that it's for me I really I really learned with the 80/20 rule. So basically you know 20% of the effort should get 80% of the results >> and uh that I find like there's no point in being too precise about things. Same thing for example. There's this big thing with for example using a um a wood chipper like you know on the lines it takes forever if you don't have straight unless you have really straight trunks that you can get and and fill them in like that.
>> I I do not see the point of using it because it's just like ridiculous amount of petrol use for stuff. Now we just go with flame mower.
>> That was much better. just uh we can make two kilometer of lines >> in two hours like the guy with the tractor does it for us. So >> makes much more sense and uh yeah the labor is also in a way we got to consider the energy um of ourselves too not just the plants because that's actually a reductionist approach to just be like ah that's just the plants and we want to create abundance but at what cost? At what cost? That's always a question. Ex exactly that's where context dictates that and that's where I feel like people really need to sit down and not be so dogmatic about certain practices and like what's your goal financial goal goal what's your lifestyle yeah >> but it's totally different as well when you're doing homestead like for example I'm sure chickens yeah as you say >> maybe you could feed them with uh just your own things that you grow your own plants >> if if it's homestead but then when you're doing bigger production I mean I think it's more about also depending on each other So it'd be great if there'd be such people that would do systems like that that are also like I would I say centropically buffered as well that make grain and and all that in some way.
>> I like how you said that centropically.
That's good.
>> But you know what I mean like this kind of like I I've heard of few people like experimenting with that with thinking of like for cattle or for um grains to just be like let's say a tree line every 30 m or something like that >> and then have you know grow your grains.
Yep. You you Ali Craftfield Green. Yep.
You're ali that just adds some that's that's a pretty good thing. And you can see I see the massive difference with just tree lines. It's not just because I like that. It's just because I see that the grass is growing so much more when you have a tree line.
>> It It's incredible. It takes a year or two and you already see the difference.
>> Exactly. Uh and that's what I encourage a lot too. It's like, okay, cool. We'll have these nice perennial tree lines, but let's start alleycropping to other things. And you can do that conventionally in the sense of the mechanized farming that we do >> and you're still going to see a huge difference of incorporating trees into the landscapes. Um so and it's it's a beautiful thing. Um >> yeah.
>> Yeah. Because at the end of the day too and why going back into thinking back to one of the questions you asked with centropy and what also led it led me to it. I also fully comprehend that perennial systems are the most sustainable systems in the sense there's less soil disturbance and they're more productive. You plant them, you're managing them versus annual production systems are very labor intensive. Um I rather be managing trees and plants.
So yeah and uh so understanding that but then that's where it comes into balance and um >> learning because then in centropy too you have the opposite of centropy which I never hear enough of is centropy um and uh they're always and that's with life in general is you always have these dualities these opposite ports the ying and the yang life and death centropy entropy light dark silence whatever ones and zeros and uh mas masculine and feminine. Oh, and that's another thing too what really attracts me to agroforestry as well is I feel like it is the balance of feminine and masculine in agriculture because agriculture itself is very masculine energy. It's very dominant. It's led by the mind.
It's logical. Um versus uh nature is feminine. It leads from the heart. It's nurturing. So to have this combination of uh that masculine feminine energy I when it comes into agriculture that's why I feel like agroforestry is that byproduct of the balance of the the two forces and the two different and energies >> and um so I lost my my train of thought of where we were that's a fascinating topic too but yeah I mean I I agree with you like in a way also I I kind of like there's there's these things like you know I post I post quite recently on Instagram like these days I I post quite a lot quite consistently and I speak a lot about like for example utilizing eucalyptus utilizing acacia whatever and people keep on telling me you shouldn't plant that your trees will die this plant will create herbicide this plant will do this and that and I'm like >> okay that's what science says but uh I mean trust my observation here like I don't need to know >> the science behind that to tell you that it works it's like this thing of like as you say of using the mind. Um it's all well and good. Yeah. That this really it's really important to use the mind correctly in this like to just systemize everything. That's super important.
>> But at the same time, there's certain things you cannot there's a mystery to life that you just can't >> really try to comprehend. You could try to do that. You could try to delve in the science of it and all but >> we only have so much time like how can you do this? Some people are meant to do this kind of thing and and go search this but for me I'm not. I need to be practical and then when you're doing a farming operation like yourself, >> you need to be practical too and it's a lot about yeah >> in the heart as well um the heart leads the decisions as well >> and it it's a heart and the mind need to go together and as you say for example permaculture could be a little bit too much on the I'm not saying all permaculture farms but >> it can be a little not to not to >> it can be >> not to talk down on it there's a lot of beauties behind it. No, no, there is there is for sure. But like the permaculture plantings can be a little bit like Harry Ferry kind of thing. So I plant a tree there, another tree there.
>> But lines, you deal with lines. That's also you're taking the good out of conventional agriculture too because there's good in that too. You're taking that's the thing that's fascinating is that you're actually >> combin combining these things. So you're using the the spacing of uh monoculture.
You're using the line system or the linear system of monoculture and you're also trying to incorporate machinery in a well in a way that is good for labor.
Whereas I find that other projects that do not use this approach sometimes they're like I'm not going to use a tractor. It's going to compact the soil.
I'm like what's going on? You need to like farm like >> do everything.
>> Oh man. When people go on the compaction, compaction comes from consistent going overact over pass and one cutting grass is not the same.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> So, it's it's really interesting how the balance is really created with this and uh and Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's that's really a fascinating thing is that's the thing like we cannot just like demonize conventional agroforestry like agroforestry or agriculture all the time because we need to take things from there like there's really important things >> and yeah I mean we need to work more with nature obviously >> that's that's more important but at the end of the day you um have an operation to produce something >> well you can't just >> yeah I mean it's it's just what you're going to have to do you're going to have to do compromises as yourself. You say, >> correct.
>> You were tilling your beds.
>> Uh I don't even know like do you actually mulch your beds or not?
>> Um no. So I plant at a high density that eventually I form a canopy. So it's typically I do a shallow till like one to two inches. So you're talking about only a depth of that. So I'm not hitting the subs soil, just the surface level.
Um, so typically foil mow work that in and because then I'll run the gritter and I plant at a high density that typically I'll do one or two little wire weeding or cultivation and then at that point it forms a high density that the soil's covered anyways from the the the canopy of the plants and the density that I planted at.
>> Um, the mulching I'll do here and there.
This season, I'll mess with some crimping, doing cover crop crimping and transplanting in it. But that's only when you're trans hand transplanting certain crops. It wouldn't work with the tools, the other two tools that I use of the paper pot transpler and the the direct cedar. Um, it would be a little challenging especially. Yeah.
>> Um, >> yeah. So, and I have tried mulching before. And this is another thing because I'm like, "Oh, how would it be without having to use any annual cover crops? How how much clumping grass would I need to plant to be able to mulch a whole block that's 14 feet by 50 ft?"
And uh what was it? It took me 1536 I think it was 1,200 linear feet of napier grass to be able to get a decent mulching into that block and I probably could have used a little bit more. So I'm like, man, and it was the amount of energy that it took on my end to be able to run down these lines because I ideally it's best to do it in situ and uh just chop and drop and fall it there without having to haul it from the other part of the field. Um but I give that a try. Um so my goal is and my method is always planted at a high density to form that to keep that to form that canopy, keep the ground cover. So >> yeah, I mean that's actually another example of like uh you know this dogma you need everything mulched. Well, in truth like >> you know you can have a living mulch like you have ground cover, you can have things like that and that >> that acts as a mulch and then uh so it's protected. So at the end of the day, >> yeah, there's ways to go around that and uh but that's pretty a pretty good uh balance that you're finding here cuz I mean obviously it would be better if it was mulch and on top of that this living but like better but in terms of work like what do you do? There's a you compromise. There's a little compromise and that just depends cuz over year over the years it could be me moving away from these certain crops as well. Like maybe I'm not planting a high amount of lettuce and different roots vegetables and growing baby greens. Maybe over times I'm just doing more uh like kales, collards, broccololis that things I could transplant and at that point I could get more into mulching and then also do a little bit more secessional like a little more placenta secessional planting in the sense of like all right so we have a placenta crop that's out in 30 days and then the next one that's going to be harvest in 60 days and I can take advantage of one planting and plan out all my secession for veggies in that one planting in that mulch bed. But in the in this context and where I'm at and also the amount of people and labor, I also have to keep it simple as well because I to teach these complex and to be able to teach people how to transplant. And it's like, oh, here you plant this every uh 12 in. And then in between it gets a little too complicated to relay a lot of this information to some folks. And especially my labor is mostly volunteer uh apprentices and interns. And uh so I also have to make it simple to be able to relay this information to the help that I have. If I'm always around practitioners that have think the same way and understands, then I can get a little bit more complex because it's easier to direct. They understand what to go about. But when you're having a lot of new people coming into this and coming and working in this farm and learning, it's good to keep it simple and uh and that's where that's where you choose your battle and context dictates that. So >> yeah, I see. I mean as well like this is the same thing. It's like this idea that oh if you're doing cropic a it means that uh with annuals you need to stratify your veggies and it's like well no the tree lines are actually the what you need is really the root exodates from the tree lines and uh and the well the shade that they create and and and all the other benefits. Uh but you don't need to stratify everything. And if you do that, sometimes it ends up in a mess because you just like let's say something in the middle that's emergent like let's say >> okra or whatever and then on the sides you put um >> I don't know like uh I kind of did that to do with like falesis for example and it was just a mess, you know. It's a mess because >> then you have to take out the okra from from below when it's dead and then you already have this falis that's like massive. It's like what's >> it kind of makes a big mess and uh it's really difficult to keep track already that you have these kind of calculations of timing that are so important.
>> It's like sometimes just going to plant simple and >> yep because sometimes you got to get the timing like you'll transplant this crop but direct seed this crop or you transplant this one or you start seeding this one a week later or come back two weeks later and plant that. So it gets a little it's possible because how I home garden in my raised beds I always kind of mimic centropy within it and annuals vegetables like that's no till it's always mulch but that's my little home garden bed that I mess with and that I'm doing stratification and secessional planting at least with my annual crops of like some placenta one it's fun and that but when you're doing acres of it it's like all right let's simplify this cuz this is going to get way complicated and way messy. and it's not going to be productive or profitable >> as well.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think also the thing that is not really understood and uh is that also the context in which we're in makes that uh first off labor is really expensive and there's not that many people that farm. So, if we had more people farming, there'd be much more people like let's say helping you out on your farm for example.
>> And uh and that's what's going on. Like for example, in Brazil, it's much cheaper to like hire someone >> uh in agriculture. Um y >> but yeah but nowadays it's so you got to be reliant on machinery and dependent on that and then people like away you know >> um so in a certain way >> yeah certain way it would be possible to do this kind of planting if you had more people you know in a way yes it's more productive yes you get more uh more food from that that's for sure >> but at the end of the day it's like we live in a context right now that just doesn't allow us to do that >> and it's the economical context matters also as much So, >> and that's that's where I'm where I'm also trying to move because you mentioned the people aspect and that's where agroforestry too I think is a beautiful thing because it is a community thing like and it should be because we have a whole community of different plants and different secession within our systems and I think the external part of us humans of having that community aspect of working on these systems together is a beautiful thing and that's where I feel like the larger like when you're scaling up centropy if you're depending on context and where you are in the part of the world like being here in the United States, labor is low and you want to mechanize it. But if you're in an area where there's a huge agarian community, there's a lot of people that are into it, then it it's a beautiful thing is that you can make it more complex and uh and take part of it. Um I do try and that's another thing too. I do try and keep my systems a little bit more over time. to keep refining what plants I'm using and simplifying it in the sense of community engagement as well because when if I have volunteers and there's a lot of people that are very fascinated and want to do and engage this but there you also got to meet them at their level. So it's like all right let me simplify this so I'm able to explain this so they can digest it and also let me focus on some key species here and then like it makes it easier so when I have bigger groups of helping me out to do some management it's like okay you're this person you're managing this this plant and within this line that's all you're focusing on and then you see the pattern every three feet you'll have this plant and then they start recognizing then they start developing okay I'm seeing the eye the pattern of this plant cuz um I could look down the lines and I could identify every single planted tree there. But that we're years in practitioner as practitioners we understand plants that you can see this but when people are like I'm telling people like hey be mindful when you're cutting because when you open this up there's something behind that and planting be mindful and some people are like oh I would never seen that. It's like so teaching people how to identify those leak textures and sizes and whatnot. though.
>> Yeah, takes some patience, I guess.
>> It takes a lot of patience. And then that's why I also uh Oh, man. Also going back to centropy, what I love it. It's just that abundance mindset of planting more than what you need. And because nature plants in abundance and also carrying it over when I go like going back to that talk, that's why I love centropy too because like I said, it's more than just planting a force. It's I feel like there's a lot of uh you can relate on it on a personal spiritual level as well.
Mhm.
>> It relates to that.
>> Yeah. Well, no, but that's that's so good. But yeah, I was just thinking like by the way, yeah, we were just saying like, okay, this is a context we're in.
Economically speaking, we're in this context >> and actually that's where it would really be helpful for you to explain a bit more about how you you deal and you run with your diverse enterprises, the CSA and all that cuz that is definitely a way that is like going out of this uh economical context of globalization and all that going to like more local food production and more food sovereignty as well and the fact that it's diverse that it's not just like one avenue and uh and that's it. Um >> that that that's really something that' be helpful if you can you can like sum it up if you can kind of explain how it works.
>> Yeah. Um and this is where I think it's great even well I don't recommend farms to automatically jump into CSA because there's a lot of stress behind CSA because you have people put money up front into the season in return they're expecting this. Uh but they also understand that that they're at the same risk level as you are as a farmer. But it also gives me the opportunity to be able to keep pushing the boundaries and I feel like I'm pretty transparent of what's happening here at the farm. Um there's still some things that we push.
I have those things in my back pocket that are always going to be like, "Okay, I know I'm going to produce this and get this result." And then there's times I'm like, "All right, I got to keep pushing and diversifying and and and seeing how far can I push the limits on this." Um that still makes it economically viable and uh and still keeping good productivity. It goes back to the one of the things I said earlier the diversity builds resilience. So it's not having a diverse sales outlet, a diverse crop and uh not only having a also a diverse u enterprise and especially animals I feel like complements farms very well because they also contribute um to the systems with the the fertility of their manure and also their function of they their pest management as well. They help eat out uh and burrow. Um some pests burrow into the soil. They're always scratching and looking for those bugs and grubs as well. So they they have an ecological um benefit to the system. And um and just thinking of certain times of year, like for instance, we went through a historic freeze this past winter earlier this year. And if I was just a papaya and banana farmer, I just lost my whole entire crop. But I'm growing veggies and I had a lot of brassacas in the field and lettuce and some cool cool season herbs and they can take temperatures super low. Uh we're talking about temperature down 21 Fahrenheit which is -6 C which is not normal.
>> Super cold. That's much colder by us.
It's even colder than by us. Wow. It's crazy.
>> And that's and then we had almost three days in temperatures in the 20s. Uh but that's something that happens every 10 to 15 years. And then I started looking back at our weather pattern. I'm like, "Okay, yeah, it is normal for us to get cold." It's like that. So, it's something to be mindful about. Like even though majority of the time we are hitting these where we're where we pretty much have mild winters where we can push a lot of subtropical and subtropical fruits almost year round.
Um, you can't fully rely on that. Um, even with citrus, Florida was a big used to be a huge citrus producing state and uh even back in the late 1800s in certain parts through the 1900s, there was always big historical freeze that knocked them out. Um, so anyways, uh, going back to the diversity, if I just grew citrus, then I would have been done. And especially now with the greening that we've been dealing with and and not u being able to now it's more challenging grow citrus here in Florida uh, than ever. But that's also because we exploited citrus and uh monocropped it and pumped it with chemicals and the stress response of nature finding back of eventually that selid making it over here and and knocking it out. But that's a whole another conversation. But uh the having diverse enterprises and the and that so that helps. So, it also goes back to the diverse sales outlet because when I first started this farm, my background is originally in the culinary arts and I was primarily selling directly to chefs until 2020 happened and all the world shut down. All the restaurants I was working with closed down and I was like, "Oh, there goes my sales outlet." So, that's another flaw that I experienced.
I'm like, I put all my eggs in one basket of securing selling produce just to restaurants and I was growing a lot of niche vegetables and baby vegetables and every color, size of that that was out there. Um, so that was a lesson learned like I need to have this diverse sales outlet going through multiple storms either extreme colds and freeze.
That's where I'm like, well, I need to be growing diverse vegetables. And then also um I lost my compost stores there and that's why I adopted poultry because I'm like well poultry brings in a tremendous amount of manure and if I process them because even if you look at bags of organic fertilizer it's blood meal, feather meal, uh bone meal, whatever it's byproducts of the animal industry but mostly coming from KO systems, concentrated animal feeding operations. And I'm like, man, here at that point, I was like, well, I'm trying to be sustainable and I'm trying to develop these amazing ecosystem. Is it really sustainable bringing external resources that come from sources that are not sustainable? Not really. I still use them and they're on standby, but I use less of them as the years go by and they're just there as needed. Um, my goal is not to use that. But so going back to the diverse enterprises and having diverse sales outlet helps a lot and I think in this in the sense of the threes I like to do things in trios. I think three is a powerful number. Uh triangles are the most powerful uh shapes there are. And I guess you can get dive deeper into the number threes and the the patterns through other theologies out there. But uh CSA restaurants farm stand. Cool. Most of my bread and butter though is my CSA. I would say about and it goes into the 8020 rule. 80% of my revenue I feel like is CSA. The other 20% comes from restaurants and uh and um um our farm stand. Yeah. Farm stand.
>> And then for the enterprises, I'm also adding another enterprise to the farm because before it was fruits and veggies. I categorize those as wands because they're both systems because sometimes I grow my veggies within my tree lines and even though they're technically fruits. So I'll grow a lot of my pumpkins and squash within the tree lines. Um they're fruing crops but we classify them veggies but whatever.
fruits and veggies I put in one enterprise poultry and now nursery because I have a lot of folks in this area that want to grow their own food but they want a more consistent source of like veggie starts and some trees and there's more people getting into agroforestry and food forestry that uh they're looking for these sources. So now I have the three enterprise of fruits and veggies, poultry and nursery.
So, I'm not relying on. So, if I have a bad hurricane, I'm like, "Hey, CSA members, I'm sorry. I'm gonna be we're going to be a little bit slow or we're gonna not have an abundance right now, but I still need revenue." So, okay, I still got my planet starts and poultry usually they handle the hurricanes pretty well unless if unless if you keep them in a low spot. Um, but for the most part, all right, cool. I still got my chicken enterprises. So, uh, that helps a lot. Like what we mentioned earlier what you said like not having all your eggs in one basket. I'm trying to spread my eggs in all these baskets to make sure not one goes down because there's so farming is hard already. So, and the lease the more consistent and the more the more consistency of revenue you can bring or the diversity it helps buffer that. And I'll take that back. I am have a fourth enterprise which is aggro tourism.
>> Not the perfect number three then.
>> Yeah. No, not the perfect number three.
It would now go into agurism. I have the because the nursery is so I I messed up on that. But the agurism is the big is now where I'm also putting a lot of energy to because we do a lot of farm dinners here, a lot of workshops, farm tours and educational things. So that's one thing is just bringing awareness.
Um, and a lot of people love the on farm experience. So I'll take that back. I did try to do three, but the there is a fourth. The nursery is the newest aspect of it, but man, but to be honest, the more the more diversifi where it makes sense as well because you also don't want to be so diversified then like you're stretched so thin unless if you have each of them in a solid foundation or like they they they're able to sustain themsel um context remember. I mean, unless you have like one person to do each of them, which >> Yeah. And that's the goal, too, and where I'm moving now because now I'm actually trying to simplify each operation that I could have people operate that like cool, I got someone to operate this aspect of the business, this aspect of the business, and then um and work it as a whole. Um, and it also goes back to kind of like taking the principles and some of the principles and philosophy of centropy and applying it to a business aspect of it. And you have the layers of your business. That's the stratification, the management of these business, how you're stratifying all that. Um, that's how I kind of relay and look at it. Um even um I like yeah cuz the more diverse there is the more resilient and if one falls down or moves out of secession and sometimes too and this is what I tell folks you don't always like if you really want to farm and but you rather your passion is certain fruits or or or certain animals veggies is so profitable and such a quick easy money you can also have secession within your enterprise so you can start off as a market gardener for the first two three years and then as the force is developing and pushing forward into secession and now you have certain fruing crops come in. Now hopefully if that fruing crops can make up the revenue that the veggies were doing, cool. That's the next business in there. So you can go from growing veggies and then slowly transition out of veggies into then growing fruits just primarily just fruits or whatever you you're passionate about or livestock. So that's another aspect too that I try to put people in that mindset like you could have these enterprises secessional that they're only there for a period of time to get you to that next step as well. Um so that's not one thing. So you could have your a placenta enterprise your secondary enterprise and then your climax enterprise.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean also I mean >> that that really makes me like a tangent here like it makes me think as well like >> you know I I hired a consultant about 3 years ago and made a super dense system.
So like every 2 meters of tree line you know >> and what ended up happening Yeah. And what ended up happening is like it's true it built loads of top soil.
>> It did it it built like that much top soil in some spots.
>> Oh nice. Okay.
>> Which is good. But like it just made me think as well that you could also reverse it like in a sense I have all these support lines >> and then cut them cut them down and then use the fertility for veggies. I don't know it permanent and that's why I love us. Yeah. Yeah.
>> But that's another thing too. Even if you don't know and maybe you're like hey I want to farm just plant at such a high density you go crazy planting.
>> Worst case scenario you prune it and reset it back. That soil is going to only be better anyways.
>> Yeah. So, and that's what I love about centropy too and and pruning. It's ne nothing in nature is permanent. Nothing in life is ever permanent. It's like everything has a certain cycle and at any point you can terminate that and transition it to something else or have a slow transition.
>> Uh one example too I retured uh peaches. It was just a halfacre planted peaches 15 feet by 15 feet. What is that like five? What is that? Four and a half meters I think.
>> Pete that's like four and a half meters by four and a half or less >> is it somewhere around there? Yeah.
>> Yeah. And uh yeah it was just managed it organically organic spray organic fertilizer and I was like peaches here in Florida is a pain to begin with. That's a whole another topic. But I was like, well, this needs more life, more diversity and whatnot. Um, I wanted to implement a lot of the principles centropy into it.
So, I was like, oh, I'm not going to remove the trees. I'll just go ahead and prune them a bit and then start planting all my supports and then plant another species within event. First, I was going to transition out of peaches into mangoes, but now I'm not even doing mangoes because uh now experiencing a historical freeze. Uh I don't want to plant half an acre of mangoes. So, I'm focused now move out of peaches into avocados, leuches, and uh and lemons. Um is what the peach orchard's eventually going to transition. And also to be able to support uh running chicken tractors of chicken broilers for meat.
>> Okay. Yeah. Okay, that's that's crazy.
>> Yeah, that's that. Yeah. So, the aggroforestry, what I love, it's never permanent. You can plant it. You can do that high diversity, high planting, and at any point you're like, ah, you know what? My context has changed or now I'm a little more focused or I know what I need to do. Cool. Reset it and replant it. But that soil is going to be even better. And you're going to thank yourself two, three, four years down the line. And that's what I'm always trying to think like try and think think ahead down the line at least four 10 years down the line so I can help my future self and you're you can help your future self like by planting a high density like you did like you planted at such a high density that you developed so much top soil but now you're like ah you know what I want to start market gardening I want to start growing veggies if you didn't plant that that high density system you would have never achieved that beautiful top soil that Now you could probably grow veggies in there pretty well better than what it was >> previously before that was planted.
>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There's a flexibility to it that is just incredible. And I find that uh yeah I mean as I say it works as well with animals management or with poultry or with veggies or perennials like whatever it is like in a sense as well like you find like I don't know >> your crop gets hammered by a um by a pest because you didn't plant it in the right soil there wasn't the right successional like ability of the soil then this dies and then it's just like okay I already have my base I already have my foundation I already have a good soil and even I already have the support species. So, I can use the same thing, just chop them down to the base. Some will grow, some will not, and then replant. I mean, what's the problem with that?
>> And, uh, >> no problem with that.
>> Yeah, exactly. It's like it's it's quite incredible like the level of flexibility that it has.
>> Um, >> and yeah, I mean, that's why I'd really like to know a bit more about how you run your poultry operation like >> um, yeah, can you let us know a bit about that? What's what's the number actually? How many uh chickens do you have?
>> Uh so I run a small lane flock anywhere between right now we have 25 but 50s at most. Um I don't have enough room for it. And also egg laying or producing eggs isn't super profitable. Uh it's just kind of there as a little bit of support and layers are more active.
Broilers will raise anywhere between uh 75 to 150 birds a month. Um right now we have about 150 birds um out in the food forest out in the aggro forestry system right now. Uh we're about two weeks from harvest and this will be our last harvest for the season and we'll start that back up in September. Um so and that's where going and understanding poultry. So if I have a poultry enterprise home, I need to look back at the origin of poultry where they're originally from. They're from they're jungle foul from Southeast Asia. They're low strata, low dwelling um omnivore birds that are there to clean up the forest floor. They're always looking for fallen fruits, nuts, seeds, bugs, grubs, whatever are their opportunists. and to be able to cultivate that same space and to mimic that environment that the the origin of chicken comes from. Um, so that's why we have a bunch of like malberries planted peaches. Uh, that's why I like to incorporate the poultry into the fruit as well because then after fruits harvest and post-h harvest all the fallen fruits in there, they get super buggy um and whatnot. And then all the organic stuff, even though chickens can be a pain in the ass in an aggroforestry system because they do like to scratch underneath the all the organized the hard work that we do of organizing all that chop and drop material, all that, they like to pull it back because that's where all the decomposers of the insects, all the melipes, roaches, and grubs that are helping also breaking that down, that's what they're dwelling. But um yeah, poultry makes up a small revenue. It's a it's a compliment. It complements the fruits and veggies in my opinion in a sense like I told you I primarily wanted them to be able to harvest their the byproduct of poultry with the blood feather um all their their inards and then to also capitalize on their manure as they're moving down the system. So the broilers we run in chicken tractors uh since we do run Cornish cross.
Cornish cross is a hybrid breed um standard uh indust the industry standard for chickens. So they're typically raised in hen houses but we raise them in these broilers. I don't do the full netting full range because we do deal with a lot of area predators and Cornish cross aren't the fastest strongest birds so they get picked off easily. So I find it easier just to keep them in chicken tractors and we move those daily um in the with along the tree lines. The layers we keep in a mobile coupe and we run poultry netting and that will move anywhere between seven to 14 days depending on what impact we want those chickens to have on the landscape. So, we really try to use the layers to like cuz if there's an area that I need a heavy disturbance or it got super weedy because I didn't plant enough in secession or I didn't I had a gap in there or whatever, I'll if I need them to have a big impact, I'll concentrate them there for a long period of time, have them do a bit the impact that I need and then move them elsewhere.
>> Um, so they're there because I I look at the whole entire farm at the whole ecosystem. It's a super organism and the poultry is part of that this organism of the farm that they shuffles and moves around the farms or for fertility. So I just feel like it's just the poultry enterprise there is there to complement and help enhance the fertility of the farm, but it also helps enhance also the the revenue of the farm as well and also attracts people because it's nice. Oh, cool. I'll buy a whole chicken. I'll buy a bottle of honey and some kales, collards, and some bananas or whatever or grow papayas.
>> And uh so it it's nice to have a little bit more diversity to the stand and to the CSA, too, because if I have 80 CSA members buying veggie shares, well, that's 80 customers that I can keep adding more product to. How what else can I fulfill? I'm like, all right, cool. Some of them add chicken and eggs.
So, I have CSA members that they come here, they get a bag of produce of a mix of fruits and veggies, but they're also getting a whole chicken and they're also going home with a dozen eggs. And that's a pretty cool place. It's like cool. You get that from one farm. And then all these that whole chicken you have in that egg actually help fed like came cuz the veggies feed the chickens as well.
And then the all the waste that we collect this year feeds the garden next year as well. So, it's cool to have this whole entire CSA bag. Like, man, this is the whole ecosystem right here that they've built and support each other.
So, >> Mhm.
>> Um, yeah. Uh, the chicken though is the highest cost of goods sold that like the highest input because of the grain aspect. I will say um it takes what is it to raise one broiler cost me about $10 to $11 to raise one chicken and that chicken can be two pounds which is what is that around a kilo or it can go up to usually a lot of times up to six pounds uh which is what like two and a half kilos two and a half kilos. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And um so and it doesn't matter how small or big they cost me $12 at the end. We sell our poultry at six about around around 650 a pound. Um so that's what makes it in the actual work that we do. Um >> Okay.
>> It makes it pretty profitable for us to do it. Yeah. And then being able to operate under our our poultry license that we currently have um which is ran by the state. So EPAX which is Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, they have their limited poultry license which goes through that federal exemption. So that because I know some places around the world and even some states uh the government regulations are so strict that it makes it hard for the farmers to be able to >> the a flu the flu is horrible in Europe.
Like I mean again it's these regulations that only affect big farms and don't affect small farms. And if they do affect the false farm it's >> if do if they do affect a small farm like yeah one chickens will be sick but not all of them. It's like disease is like it's like it's like in us humans. I mean if you have the immune system strong enough to >> uh you know deflect that well you're not going to be sick. It's just what it is.
The sickness is just not just contagious to everybody. So >> correct because it's a stress response.
Each individual is different. You don't know what the stressor on that individual >> Exactly. And I mean it's it's pro it is going to be a stressed chicken that's going to get the even flu. And I mean Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, there must it's a stressed chicken because it's not in its natural environment. It's in a confinement. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a little bit ridiculous. I mean, I guess in US it's a little bit less strict because I I know in general it's more liberal, but uh like for us Yeah.
Europe is is just really crazy. Like I mean, you need a >> I think you need a tag for every single um chicken that you have now. Some some crap like that. I mean, >> yeah. Uh I'm not entirely sure of the whole regulations there, but anyway.
>> Yeah.
>> Um would you mind just sharing a little bit of like your numbers about profitability on your farm?
>> Yeah. Um here I could actually pull let me pull this up to be a little more um so it's also the numbers too and I'll share my numbers eventually but we also live a pretty modest lifestyle as well. like we're not living a very elaborate. I don't think anybody getting into farming is living a very extravagant lifestyle.
But to each is their own. I feel like I live in a very extravagant lifestyle and having this abundance all around me and this is why we cultivate. I don't need silver and gold and all the other material stuff. Obviously some material stuff for the farm and makes things easier. But um yeah, slow and steady. Um and I started this farm too originally with no financial no financial backing.
um starting with our first urban farm, putting in $2,000 and then the money that we generated from that and equipment eventually carried over to this farm. But we always put money back into the the farm. But right now, our farm generates uh where it's at now.
We're and this is the majority of it is coming from the vegetable production. I will say um I want to say about 80% of it is the veggie production still. Um, and then I I'm not putting in the numbers of what I get from the design and consultation because I also do some management elsewhere. But farm-wise, where we're at with a half acre of we're 2 and a half acres of productivity, but a half acre of that is mostly where the veggies are being produced. Uh, we generate 100 we did 120K 120,000 US um uh this last year. Um, my goal with this farm at two and a half acres with the poultry, fruit, and nursery is to at least hit about 200 to 250K. So, 225K would be like the most sweet spot for me to hit to be able to to do it. Um, I don't really pay myself. I take what I need for the farm. I also do live on the farm though. Uh, next season I am starting to be able to plan. Um, but for the most part, this farm can operate around 80 labor hours of a very skilled, determined individual. You can do 80 labor hours, no more than 100 labor hours. Um, and that fluctuates over the years because some parts of the years you're it goes down a bit. Your workload dwindles down to about maybe 60 labor hours. And this is collectively. This is not >> collectively. It's not just you.
>> Yeah, correct. Collective. Collectively.
Collectively. Just to clarify that like on a weekly basis uh collectively on a weekly basis you're looking at anywhere between and it fluctuates 60 to 100 hours collectively.
>> Mhm.
>> And uh and depending on the time. So that's why typically I just say about 80 labor. So that's the two full-time people working on the farm >> on a weekly basis essentially or you have one full-time and two part-timers on the farm on two and a half acres is possible.
>> Yeah. Okay. I wasn't sure if it was collected. No, no, it is collective.
Different standard of labor.
>> No. Yeah, we >> the labor here in America is awful.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> We do have a very Yeah. Anyways, we don't need to go into that, >> but it's it's collective. It's collective. So, right now, most of my labor is um >> through people working pro bono um volunteer through apprenticeship. each of my apprentices, I I asked them to at least put one seven-hour day a week. Um, and then me working in the back end. And that doesn't include me doing the backend stuff. This is just the physical labor of maintaining the farm. There's still, you know, how it is being an entrepreneur and a business individual. There's still a lot of stuff on the back end, marketing, emails, whatever. All the nonsense that comes with running, I don't want to say nonsense.
the essentials I guess of running um a business and um but yeah so uh right now we're at 120k um is what we gross last year and uh I'm hoping and where I'm working towards because that doesn't include when I get avocados coming in I'm still about well now I replant I have to replant we lost a lot in the freeze and that goes back into I still got veggies and if I was focusing on agroforestry and perennials for income >> that I would have been like, "Okay, cool. I just lost all the mangoes I planted last year and also avocados I planted three years ago. Some of them got burnt out from the freeze um picking the so >> yeah. Anyways, as a fruit farmer, it would have been a huge loss and I'm like and you're not making money and the stress of that. But then again, the workload is much different though because when you're doing veggies, your workload's much higher.
Livestock is a little bit lower and more manageable. So that's where it comes into uh context of like lifestyle of what works. Like how much hours do you want to put into the week? Like maybe you can be a fruit and animal and do livestock and still be a great profitable farm. Um would be an option.
But uh yeah, anyways. So hopefully that kind of shares >> Sure. Sure.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. That that's awesome that you're being so transparent about that.
Like it's great to just get kind of have an idea.
>> Um >> but that also depends because that number can increase too depending on crop selection, your market and that's only relevant to my context and my market and where I'm at.
>> Yeah. Depends how >> you you're also growing and all that. I suppose it's correct. Yeah. and what crop selection you're doing. Like uh it's more profitable to grow baby greens than it is a tomato. You're going to make more money off a 50ft bed of greens than you are on tomatoes in a short period of time. But there's more labor that goes into the baby greens because more tools and infrastructure behind it than it is growing tomatoes. So that's where having that balance of crop selection, where the market is for certain what the market's willing to pay for these certain crops. So there's so many little nuances behind that aspect.
>> Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah. Know it's it's really cool to hear all the logistics of this all. And I just want to ask you one more question and we just wrap it up.
>> Yeah.
>> Like >> what kind of advice would you give like to let's say a beginner who's starting with centropic that is kind of in the same process as yourself like seven years ago like starting with a farm.
>> What what what kind of advice would you give >> to yourself let's say?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Don't be afraid to to fail.
That's one thing for sure. Um man, so the advice would be to really think through what you want out of it. Like you sit down and like context like what are you trying to achieve here? Do you have a financial goal? Do you have a personal goal? Are you just trying to feed yourself? Are you trying to feed your community? You you really need to reflect because those once you figure out your context and you go these whole list of questions to ask yourself then decision of planting makes it easier.
The decision of farm designing makes this easier. Um if you don't have a focus or a clarity uh or clarity of where you want to be um you're going to come through some obstacles because you're not clear enough of how to make and navigate through these these big decisions through your whole entire journey. and even through growing. Um, so it in the sense of somebody trying to come into this as an entrepreneur making this a livelihood, you need to figure out that if you're coming into the centropic agroforestry as like just to regenerate the land and enhance your ecosystem, it it's going to be different. So I have to I need a little more context of who I'm talking to. But if talking to myself, man, >> yeah, if you were talking to yourself, if I was talking to myself, uh, patience and more clarity. I wish I had a little more clarity. But then again, sometimes you don't know until you start going through this journey because then you're like, certain things present yourself. And then you realize like, oh man, I don't actually like growing this or I don't like doing this or doing this enterprise is actually awful. Maybe Market Guardian is not for me and but I really enjoy chicken and fruits and stuff like that and then do that. So, but um being afraid not to fail and uh and also being keeping an open mind and not being dogmatic because even in the beginning too I was pretty dogmatic on some things but then I realized like why am I being dogmatic like nothing's rigid nothing in nature is rigid everything is nothing in nature is in a box and sometimes we like to keep putting things into a box so >> um yeah but >> okay okay well awesome >> well man that was a really really interesting uh interview and I really like the fact that yeah know you were just diving all the logistics there that that's super cool. Uh yeah, by the way >> uh I'll just add your links in the description. Um also your Instagram. I don't know if you have a website. Do you have a website?
>> Yeah, I do have a website.
>> I put I put these both on the description >> and um yeah man, that was a quite good one. I'm sure like we could get going a second time because uh >> I more question to go through all the trick. Yeah, >> that's for another time for that. But uh >> that'll be awesome.
>> So far this will do.
>> So >> yeah, it was a play. Yeah, it was absolute pleasure. Yeah, true pleasure.
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