Why Andy Burnham can’t save Labour | spiked podcast

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[00:00:00]the closest we've ever come in this country to a presidential election because it's highly likely that if Bernham wins he will become the next prime minister >> is just K star and a pair of jeans like it's not there really isn't much there >> or a pair of running shorts >> exactly oh god the running >> tight little running shorts >> I wish I could have unseen that combination but there we go >> if the Labour party haven't woken up to the fact that they need to win this by genuinely acknowledging the sense out there that the country is broken then frankly they deserve to be defeated Hope is in the air. Can you feel it?

[00:00:33]>> Yeah, definitely.

[00:00:34]>> Hello and welcome to the Spike podcast.

[00:00:36]I'm Fraser and delighted to have back with me Spike's editor Tom Slater.

[00:00:40]Hello. And also thrilled to be welcoming Amir Ketcha, former diplomat and CEO of the Center for Government Reform.

[00:00:46]Welcome. Thank you. Great to be here.

[00:00:48]Thanks for coming on the show. We have plenty to discuss today. We'll be talking about Burnham's tricky path to power, the return of the Brexit debate, and the calamity of HS2. But before we get into all that, I just wanted to talk a little bit about an unmissable radio show. Now, everyone here at Spiked is a big fan of Rod Little, the Times columnist and returning Spike podcast guest, and I'm sure that you are, too.

[00:01:14]If you're a fan, you need to listen to his Times Radio show. What is on Times Radio every week from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. So, it's 3 hours of really spiky conversation with bigname guests confronting all the big issues. And you will not hear the usual line that you get everywhere else in the mainstream media. Plus, it's not all heavy lifting.

[00:01:34]There's music recommendations from leading artists and a TV review so you know what to watch and what to avoid.

[00:01:41]So, don't miss Rod Little on Times Radio every Saturday from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. And you can listen on your digital radio, via your smart speaker, or via the free Times Radio app. And Tom, we've got one more thing to remind people of before we get into the show.

[00:01:57]>> No, exactly. Which of course is the Spike Summit. This is your weekly reminder that our biggest event ever is coming up on Saturday the 27th of June.

[00:02:05]We've announced a number of new speakers recently. Andrew Doyle is going to be there. Paul Embry is going to be there.

[00:02:10]fires. Mughle is going to be there. It's going to be a fantastic day. If you haven't already got your tickets yet, move fast because we have very few left.

[00:02:18]Looks like we're going to sell out in a matter of days, if not weeks. So, spikedonline.com/events.

[00:02:24]And remember, if you're a Spike supporter, you get that discount. So, a bi-election is coming up on the 18th of June in Makerfield. This is Andy Bernham's potential chance to get into parliament and possibly depose Kier Starmmer. He has declared it the most important and significant bi-election of our lifetimes. I mean, he would say that it's about his career. But Tom, it's not all smooth sailing for Andy Burnham.

[00:02:46]Despite him being a popular figure in the Labour party, this is a difficult seat for him to win.

[00:02:50]>> No, absolutely. I mean, the bookies have it as about 50/50 as to whether or not Labour will win it, which is remarkable given that Labour have always held this seat. Um it's really in the reason it's so significant I think is because it's the ongoing story of the realignment of British politics. This is firmly a kind of red wall seat. Um voted heavily for Brexit and also at the recent local elections voted very heavily for reform.

[00:03:17]Um they took about 50% of the local council seats going in the area. So, it's a going to be a real test obviously of the Labour Party and the extent to which it can hold on to some of those working-class red wall voters that it managed to hold on to or claw back at the last election, but also for Andy Bernham in particular, is his supposed personal brand so strong, obviously within Greater Manchester itself, that it can overcome not only the the terrible inheritance of the short Star period, but also of the longer term kind of tectonic shifts in our politics, which has led a lot of particularly white working-class voters in places like Greater Manchester but across the country to see Labor as diametrically opposed to their interest. So so much is at stake. Obviously the who our future prime minister is going to be is essentially at stake. Um but um yeah it's a kind of story of our politics in one bi-election potentially.

[00:04:10]>> Yeah. And I mean if if Bernham wins then potentially Labour can limp on for a bit longer but if he doesn't it's going to be absolute chaos for the current government. Yeah, I think that's right.

[00:04:21]And I think the pulses have called it the closest we've ever come in this country to a presidential election, right? Because it's highly likely that if Bernham wins, he will become the next prime minister, right? And we're in this slightly strange period in Westminster where Star is a lame duck and is trying to pretend as if everything uh can carry on as normal, but in fact, you know, all eyes are on Makerfield because that is where the action is at the moment. Um I think it's also interesting to see how um the reform candidate does right because they have plumped for a real local guy um a plumber a former army reservist uh you know and in many ways uh it's the sort of person you can imagine doing really really well and it was as Tom said a seat that well over 60% of voters um voted to leave in the Brexit referendum. So in many ways tailor made for reform but then weighed against that the fact that so-called king of the north Burnham has got a personal brand and and and presumably that will you know have some have some bearing as well. So it's really interesting to see what happens >> and Tom there's already been some you know quite harsh attacks on the reform candidate. Um people trolling through social media history the usual kind of thing. What have you made of that? To be honest, I think that has amounted to pretty thin grl in terms of things that they could possibly take him down for.

[00:05:42]It's one of those things where if you read the kind of Guardian headline, the Stanford, you think, "Oh god, what has he actually said?" And then when you actually get down to grips with it. Um things like kind of talking pretty spicely around the time of the Southport riots about illegal migration. It's things like um again questioning whether or not people needed vaccines in relation to CO. one can take issue with his positions on these things, but a lot of these articles basically amounted to reform candidate says things we disagree with. Um there was even one hilarious piece on the by line times as many by line times pieces are which was um criticizing him for being someone who was amplifying misinformation during the Southport rights which included interacting with posts by Nigel Farage and Richard Ty um you know the the leader and then I believe deputy leader of his own party. So this is what we're talking about. There's also this quite strange story which has come out of search light the kind of supposed anti-fascist that he was Facebook friends with a sort of cosplay fascist politician. Um but again this not to say that they were best friends. The extent of that relationship isn't entirely clear. Was he a fascist when he met him?

[00:06:47]Who knows? But this is the kind of level that they're having to dredge up. And I think it also it it speaks to a certain level of um desperation. I I think the decision for um whether it was his decision or whether the party suggested very strongly that he do so to delete posts and to delete entire social media accounts has probably only added to the speculation to a certain degree. But I would be surprised if this was in any way going to sway the result um particularly for people who were minded to vote reform. The idea that there's some kind of smoking gun here that would derail his candidacy I think is for the birds and it's just it's just cancel culture is all they've got left really even if they haven't got endless amounts of material to work with in this instance >> with um Andy Bernon there kind of is endless amounts of material to look at because he's been in politics for a long time and I think the criticism that is sticking the most of him is that he's a bit of a flip-flopper. He's he's had about 10 different positions on Brexit.

[00:07:43]Um he's been asked to clarify his position on trans rights. Um having said having having emerged that he thinks that trans women should be allowed into women's toilets. His he seems to be all over the shop and goes with the the way the wind's blowing. Would you would you agree with that crit?

[00:07:58]>> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I think the latest thing he said on Brexit, you know, just in the last um few hours or today was we we shouldn't be reopening the Brexit wars. But as you say, he's totally flip-flopped in his views on on whether we should have another referendum. And you know, I I think the problem is he people used to say of Boris, he bears the sort of imprint of the last person that sat on him, right? And I think you could say something similar about Burnham. And there's just this sense that, you know, he he blows in the wind. Uh and you know, voters want pe someone of authenticity and someone of conviction, right? If there's one thing we can take from Faraj's popularity, it's that that's what voters want. They want some a politician that knows their mind. And I do think that with Bernham, in many ways, he's the opposite of that. He seems to he seems to go with the flow and and and and with the direction the wind is blowing. So that may come back to harm him. I mean, I do think just on on Tom's point, you know, I think voters are over cancel culture. They don't care that this guy might have been Facebook friends with an unsavory character, right? And and let's not deny that some of the people may well have been unsavory, but we're past that. And I think if uh if the Labour Party haven't woken up to the fact that they need to win this by genuinely acknowledging the sense out there that the country is broken, then frankly they deserve to be defeated. Right? You know, the interesting thing actually is both the reform candidate and Bernham uh in many ways are saying that they are the outside candidate. They're the anti-establishment candidate. They're the one from outside Westminster >> and vote then to get rid of Star as well. Kind of that's the implicit message.

[00:09:42]>> Yeah, indeed. So, so I think that will be what that will be what wins it. I think it's the person that that can properly convince the voters that they are the most different to the current failed prime minister we have in number 10. And and one of Andy Burnham's ways of trying to present himself as different is through this ideology that he's calling Manchesterism. Um I've been trying to work out what this means and I I I'm really coming up short because it's he calls it businessfriendly socialism which in practice seems to amount to the fact that there's been lots of private development in Manchester encouraged by the local council actually long predating Andy Bernham's arrival in 2017. Um so not sure he can take credit for any of um any of that growth.

[00:10:24]But the socialism part seems to be that there is a um bus network under public control, not actually nationalized. It's still actually run by private companies.

[00:10:35]>> And you know, I know we use language very promiscuously in in these days, but if socialism means, you know, you have essentially a northern version of TfL, I don't think that's what people would have gone to the barricades for in years past. I don't think there would have been a Russian revolution over the BFL model of socialism.

[00:10:52]>> Exactly. It's like it's incredible how much that is trotted out. It's also incredible how Andy Bernham has, at least in the minds of the commentaria, managed to position himself as an anti-establishment outsider candidate. I mean, this is a man who was MP for 16 years. He was uh in Westminster for many years. Before then, he was Cambridge.

[00:11:13]>> Exactly. Cambridge.

[00:11:14]>> Ran twice for the Labour leadership.

[00:11:16]>> Exactly. 2005, 2010, I think, you know.

[00:11:18]>> Exactly. and failed miserably when he did so because he had this um reputation as insubstantial, a flip-flopper. There was a good joke doing the rounds on social media the other day that a Blairite, a Brownite, a Corbynite, and a Starite walk into a bar and they say, "Hello, Andy, what are you having?" This is who he is. um the fact that he has kind of tilted in a more soft left direction of late I think is more indicative of the fact that he's recognized that the base of the Labour party um is significantly more middle class and kind of bit more leftish at least on kind of cultural quote unquote progressive issues than it was previously. So you have to kind of make those noises in order to get those people excited. But the fact that we've seen these U-turns now, not only on Brexit, but also on the question of the fiscal rules, I think is is a reminder that despite all of the projection that is um going on as in relation to Burnham at the moment, not only will he fail, I think to inspire the the voters that Labour has been losing to reform. I also think he will disappoint those people uh the sort of um middle class six music crowd to which he seems to spring is um ultimately in the end because he is just K star in a pair of jeans like it's not there really isn't much there >> or a pair of running shorts.

[00:12:30]>> Exactly. Oh god the running tight little running short.

[00:12:32]>> I wish I could have unseen that combination but there we go.

[00:12:36]>> And he asked for the cameras to be there I'm sure >> I'm coming around the corner in five minutes. Yeah, that's >> I mean I do I do agree with Tom and just on this question of what is Manchesterism. I mean it seems to be just getting things done and you know Manchester does feel like you know it's a city on on the up as it were. I think he does benefit by the way from the fact that London very much does not feel like a city on the up and the fact that you're likely to get your phone stolen and in fact as I was walking here almost had my phone stolen does suggest that you know there's a problem in London and he benefits I think from being outside of that right but you know that seems to be what he's about and I think what he seems to be saying is that look I'm someone that can get buildings built I can get trams running you know vote for me for delivery but it's still you know it's very It's a technocratic vision that frankly doesn't exactly inspire me.

[00:13:30]>> Should we talk about one of the other um what one of the other leadership contenders is saying if we can even call him a leadership contender. I mean his polling is so poor. But Wes Streeting didn't waste any time um after resigning from Karma's cabinet before calling for the UK to rejoin the European Union. Um, partly people might suspect that this is to throw Andy Bernham off a little bit, to get him to clarify his comments, um, to almost perhaps get him to say that he does want to rejoin the EU in a leave seat. If if that's the case, he hasn't fallen into that trap. But Tom, what have you made of this return of the Brexit wars 10 years on from when we voted? No, >> exactly. Very close to the 10 year anniversary, isn't it? Um, I think it's uh indicative of the fact that Labor has essentially given up on representing the working class. I think it's given up.

[00:14:16]It's kind of it's finally come to terms with the fact that their new base is not to be found in those workingclass red wall or similar constituencies across the country and that it is within the university towns within the big cities amongst the sort of middle to upper middle class intelligencia who are their new base. They're still a class party.

[00:14:34]It's just the class has changed. That's and that is a recognition of that. I mean Brexit was the the thing which severed the long fraying tie between working-class communities and the Labor Party. They clearly made their stand during the referendum. They clearly made that sound afterwards when they tried to overturn the result. And now this conversation about rejoin is um another symbolic reminder that that's really where their heart is. Um to a certain extent this is about symbolism and vibes rather than substance. I mean the way in which someone like streeting has talks about a customs union. I mean no serious person in politics thinks that the Turkey model of EU entanglement is a positive one. like the idea that you would just be a member of the customs union and that this would be, you know, a positive economic vision for the country. But it's about what it symbolizes. We're these kinds of people, not like those kinds of people who used to vote for us and don't anymore. And I think it's it's on those terms that it's probably best understood.

[00:15:28]>> Yeah. I mean, it just suggests a party out of ideas. I mean, they haven't been able to grow the economy. They haven't been able to even though there are many things in place that are a result of Brexit, they've actually signed quite a lot of trade deals, which is quite interesting. But it's almost like the EU is the last refuge of the tired, clapped out, lack of vision politician.

[00:15:47]>> Yeah. Is almost a sort of I think an automatic reflex for Star that you know I think he probably feels, you know, warm and cuddly when he's hanging out with European leaders um and posing for a family photo. So I think there's a little bit of it which is that for Star.

[00:16:03]But I as you say, I mean, I think look, the frustration with Brexit for the for the public is that the the the newfound sovereignty that we won um hasn't been exercised to deliver the things that they care about, right? namely um getting control of the borders and and so you have to ask yourself, you know, if if if as the Labour Party they have absolutely no desire to use the sovereignty that we've won to to genuinely deliver things that the country wants, no wonder they want to take us back into the the clutches of of Brussels because they just, you know, they don't seem they don't seem to have any desire to actually um exercise democratic self-governance, you know, which is what ultimately Brexit was all about, right? Um, and you see this throughout the civil service, too. I mean, you know, frankly, you know, we've won back control over all sorts of areas, but but many civil servants, you know, I think would much rather we actually just gave those things back to Brussels and and let the the European bureaucrats deal with those things. So, you know, I think that's the problem.

[00:17:04]And and yes, I mean, you know, I did also make me laugh with Star's big reset speech. um you know all he could really come up with was was nationalizing steel um and and a European student mobility program. I mean you know it just it really was the sort of you know the last sort of vestigages of of the SAR administration on display >> and and it does seem that the arguments for rejoin are extremely weak. The economic arguments don't really add up.

[00:17:30]I mean the UK has not um underperformed its peer countries like France and Germany. Of course it hasn't been stellar. No one would no one would say that we're roaring ahead. Um, look at something like inflation. Actually, we've had less inflation than the EU um since since Brexit or even trade. Trade has increased since we left the EU, including trade with the European Union, funnily enough. So, it's not clear what exactly um the rejoining the single market, rejoining the customs union, what rocket boosters of growth it's going to put um under the UK economy.

[00:18:01]And I think people should be quite worried actually about some of the things that Starmer is signing us up to where we are going to be rule takers and having no say in in the rules and on things like agriculture, um, fisheries, um, energy, you know, those are those are areas where actually we need a government to grab them by the scruff of the neck where we are falling behind and they need serious reform, but instead we're going back to the the comfort blanket of of the European Union.

[00:18:26]>> Yeah. And the idea that the European Union would readmit us on the terms that we previously enjoyed is obviously for the birds as well. And also I take a bit of issue with the claims and lot of the discussion that the public have completely soured on Brexit. There is definitely a degree of demoralization particularly amongst Brexit voters because of the failure to deliver on shall we say the kind of broader vision implied in Brexit that it wasn't just about the act of leaving. It was also about properly taking back control of your borders, properly um you know reassessing the various ways in which EU rules and regulations had held us back and forging a new path. Um but Julian Jessup wrote a good substack on this about the the polling because you look at the headline numbers and it's like oh roughly in the region about 55% of people would support rejoining the European Union. But if you really dig down into it and when the polls actually put kind of specific questions to people you get very different results. For instance, if um I think this was more in common, asked voters, do you want kind of freer trade with the European Union?

[00:19:22]Practically everyone says yes. Most Brexiteers would say yes. Given the obstacles that were needlessly put in the place of trade by a very hard negotiating position from Brussels, but if you ask them, should we follow EU laws and regulations, it's a minority who would support that. Even Labour voters, it's something like 80% of them support um rejoining the customs union.

[00:19:41]But it's a fraction, a sliver, I think it's in the single digits of them who would support our tariff policy being dictated by anyone other than the British government, which of course is what being a member of a customs union with the EU would mean. So you layer on top of that the fact that, you know, Euro zone membership, who knows what else could be added into the mix if we were to go towards rejoining. The idea that this is a kind of clear-cut case um that the public have just soured on the whole idea I think is just completely for the birds and it would reopen all of those deep um questions about parties like Labor as to who who side they're actually on because the one of the reasons that they managed to pull off that very shaky but nevertheless significant majority last time around was they were man they managed to claw back some of those Brexit voters.

[00:20:25]They're never going to get anywhere near that if they even if they continue to talk about this issue, let alone act, you know, move seriously towards rejoining.

[00:20:32]>> Yeah. I mean, they were at pains to say that Brexit said Brexit is safe in my hands, you know, and they they adopted the language of Brexit, talking about taking back control, whereas if they don't do that, then of course, I mean, it's already been clear from Karma's Brexit reset that they're, you know, willing to go back on that. And I think also, you know, it's worth thinking about how much worse the EU itself is as well as the terms we'd be joining. It it has changed a lot in the last 10 years.

[00:20:58]And some of the debates we've been having around something like net zero, well actually, you know, we might be able to elect a government that is going to water that down. But but if we were in the EU, that's now an EU level um requirement essentially. Or if you think about something like the um digital services act which means that we would have online censorship baked into any European Union agreement that that's quite terrifying and I think if you you know we have that debate then I think you see the numbers for the any enthusiasm for rejoining dissipate apart from among the hardcore remain block.

[00:21:32]Yeah, I think I think that's right. And I think also that the point on um economic performance is really worth um stressing, right? You know, I I was a Brexiteer. I was a quiet one because I was a civil servant at the time. Um but but snap indeed. And I I would probably be bullied if I I'd admitted it. But um the point is is that you know I do remember back then I did take seriously the the the some of the fear-mongering that that the um remain side were pushing because anyone who's you know serious about you know the economy and economic performance and and wanting to be wanting our country to be credible as an economic um uh uh power. Um of course is going to to to to be sort of concerned about some of these arguments that that you know our economy would take a hammering. And actually none of it really has come to pass. You know you know the the growth we have in this country is poultry but but Germany and France are growing even more slowly. And actually if you look at the data Brexit doesn't show up at all in the data. It's basically invisible. So you know yes our economy um is is trundling along very slowly and there's all sorts of things going wrong there. But Brexit isn't the cause of that. And and as far as I can tell from really trying hard to understand remain argument, it's basically and weirdly, you know, this is coming from Labour people um like Ben Judah for instance has been on a bit of a war path making the remain case or rejoin case on on Twitter. He's David Lamy's former special adviser. It seems to be that the the economy was going absolute gang busters around 2014 2015 and we were on a path to basically not only overtake um our peer countries like France and Germany but to essentially be outgrowing the United States and you know what what are they saying that George Osborne and David Cameron had wound up with the absolute model economy and we screwed it up and we should we should apologize to Mr. Osborne or something? I I just don't buy that wasn't true.

[00:23:27]>> Yeah. Yeah. the the the argument doesn't frankly make sense, but there's all sorts of of of things that are just left unsaid by by those pushing for for us to to rejoin. I mean, for example, the 25 billion pounds or so that we would need to contribute to the to the EU budget, you know, where is that money going to come from? I mean, as it is, the guilt markets are having a meltdown at the level of debt we have in this country.

[00:23:48]So, I don't think we can borrow that money. So, what public services are they going to cut to pay for it, right? And and none of those questions are being answered at the moment. And so I think fundamentally it's quite an unserious position.

[00:23:59]>> So let's talk about HS2, the UK's highspeed rail link between London and Birmingham. Heidi Alexander, the transport secretary, has revealed that in order to make it work, the trains are not going to be running until 2036 at the very earliest. Um it will cost 103 billion pounds uh in total. And that's even despite the fact it's not going to go to Leeds and Manchester anymore. And also the trains are going to have to go slower I think uh around 20 miles an hour or 20 km an hour slower um in order to make it cost effective or just about um air. I mean this has to be one of the biggest government procurement government infrastructure catastrophes of our lifetime in history in possibly in the world. I mean it's just crazy the numbers. No, I mean I'm really angry about this because, you know, there's a litany of government delivery failures and infrastructure projects that have gone wrong, but I really do think this one takes the biscuit. I mean, it's costing us, according to the Times, almost £16,000 an inch to build this thing. I mean, it would be cheaper if they if they goldplated it. I mean, you know, and it's totally mad. and and and you know, I looked at the costings of the Aremis um program, you know, the the the the the NASA mission to to get men back on the moon. Um that costs less than HS2, quite significantly less. So, you know, um this must be the most expensive country in the world to deliver infrastructure.

[00:25:35]And we all know the reasons why. It's it's the insane uh environmental regulations and and the planning delays.

[00:25:43]Um you know the number of infrastructure projects in this country that are now taken to judicial review. Yeah. Um because they apparently contravene the climate change act. Um many of these then get thrown out by the courts. So and and indeed you know someone sensible looking at it would know from the start they always are going to be thrown out by the courts. But nonetheless the fact that they have to go to the courts causes endless delays. I think Hinckley Point C and Seizewell C have been delayed by a thousand days. That's almost three years by these um endless um appeals to the courts. So it's not just about HS2. It's about infrastructure more broadly. But HS2 really is just you know the worst example of it.

[00:26:25]>> More expensive to go to Birmingham than to the moon is I think.

[00:26:28]>> No, exactly.

[00:26:30]>> Really put in a sense. No, it's very true. And this is the thing especially because all you have to do is look at our near neighbors. you know, we've um if we're talking about learning from our continental cousins and realize that, you know, our our rail projects coming in, road and rail, I believe like on average eight times more expensive. Like what is it that is so different about Britain? Yeah.

[00:26:49]>> That means we couldn't possibly pull this off. Um and it's getting to the point where almost like delivering HS2 in some form, even at exorbitant cost, is important just to prove that we can do it in one way, shape, or form. like the the fact that we can't um have a second highspeed rail network. We we can't build another runway. We can build a railway bridge at that railway station in Barkshshire, but it's going to be 10 times as much as they thought it was going to be and take longer to build than the Empire State Building did. Like all of these examples that proliferate on a daily basis for all the reasons that everyone knows, but no one ever does anything about. It's infuriating.

[00:27:22]But then you just get up, you get just find yourself in a kind of I think there's an acquiescence to this now.

[00:27:28]just a a assumption that things could could never really be any different because once again successive governments have have struggled to do what they know has to be done in relation to planning or environmental regulations or what have you but aren't willing to wind up whether it's the environmental NOS's um constituents in certain places nimism more broadly so we're just left with this but um I can't I really can't see this changing certainly under labor >> to Tom's point about needing to deliver it I mean one of the other things Haiti Alexander the transport secretary said this week is now scrapping it will cost us as much as actually delivery. So we're just it's like being in a sort of waking nightmare where we have no choice but to spend these insane amounts of money and and you know I think you know it's unfair to blame uh any one person and it's certainly unfair to blame Haiti Alexander for all of this because you know many many people have have screwed up but I did look at her biography and you know I first saw that she was a deputy mayor for transport under Sadi Khan and thought well actually you know here maybe is someone who's got a bit of domain expertise She's worked on transport before and she's now the transport secretary. Then I looked at her priorities and one of them was delivering um cross rail and cross rail um uh opened four years late. Um and the other one was getting Ham Smith Bridge to reopen and that you know let's see um where are we with that? It's still closed. So you know um she doesn't exactly have a track record that inspires confidence in terms of delivering these transport projects and and it is you know as you said it's it's much more to do with the system even even if you had someone brilliant it would be very difficult to work around um the planning system the environmental regulations the lobbying I mean to give an indication of how fierce um some of the environmental activists you know how fierce their opposition is to basically building everything I mean the government propo has proposed um you know weakening of judicial review because even the Labour government realized this has all gone too far and George Momio um eco activist friend of the show was um on the radio today and he described it as akin to rape and this is the level of hysteria that we're dealing with but you think you'd say to these people shut up you know you're mental stop it we're going to build our bridge or we're going to build a railway why do we have to listen to this this complete insanity >> and I think you know we are um a naturelving nation and I think frankly um that's been taken advantage of by by many of these environmental lunatics. You know that we end up with a 100 million pound bat tunnel and the fish disco. I think because instinctively people in this country do care about nature and they do want to look after it. But I think any reasonable person can now see we are just essentially being taken for a ride.

[00:30:06]>> Absolutely. And yeah, we should explain the fish disco I guess. So this is this idea is it Sewell or Hingley PointC? One of the nuclear power plants. There's a fear that some that fish, not even an endangered species of fish, but some fish might accidentally swim um into the reactor and it's quite grim. They might get they might be boiled alive essentially because it's you know heats up the water.

[00:30:27]>> But the cost per fish saved is that I mean I think that you said it's 100 million for the fish disco or something like that and the cost per fish saved >> the idea is that you blast this not not music per se. I don't think it's got that bad but yeah to >> vibrations dumping we are willing to expend >> diverts the fish cash on fish that we would never spend in this country on human beings.

[00:30:47]>> Absolutely. Yeah. So so so we have to you know um uh spend per person in this country on fish may well exceed spend per citizen.

[00:30:55]>> You know certainly what the more than the NHS deems worthy of saving a human being's life. Absolutely. Well thank you Tom, thank you Amir and thank you to everyone at home. That is not all because we have Spike podcast unlocked coming up for subscribers >> that they're just now too beholden to the lanyard class that are now a key blog of their voting coalition. Um they they can't do anything to upset the civil servants. We're going to talk to air about what it's like to be in the civil service. So you'll get a look inside Whiteall inside the world of the blob that we talk so much about. So see you there. Thank you so much for watching the Spike podcast. We'll be back next week, so make sure you subscribe to the channel and click the bell so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed the Spike podcast, then why not check out what else our channel has to offer, from our documentaries to our weekly interviews and podcasts like the Brendan O'Neal Show. And if you're a Spike supporter, you can watch the second half of this episode by logging in on the Spiked website. If you're not yet a Spike supporter, then why not sign up now? You'll get unlimited access to the website, add free reading, discounted tickets to our events, and so much more. So, become a Spike supporter today by going to spikedyonline.com/support.

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