It’s Not the Atheist Professor You Should Worry About

[00:00:00]Hi everybody. I have a special guest on today, Jonathan Marorrow. Um, we have a real treat for you. John, thank you so much for coming on my channel.

[00:00:07]>> Hey, I am so excited to be here, Melissa. Really appreciate all you're doing. Let's go. Let's get at it.

[00:00:12]>> Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The first time I heard of you, you wrote a book with Sean uh Sean McDow. Um, just in case my audience doesn't know who you are, uh, can you tell us who you are? Introduce yourself, who are you and what do you do?

[00:00:24]>> Yeah, my name is Jonathan Marorrow and I get to work with students year round.

[00:00:28]Impact 360. I love to write and speak and teach basically. Um I have three kids. That's why I do what I do because I want them following Jesus not just when they're eight, but when they're 80.

[00:00:38]That's the first thing. Um been married 25 years >> uh to the love of my life and grateful that I get to do that. And then I get to work with students, literally high school, college students, year round. um and get to talk about the biggest questions of life and talk about all the things a lot of things we're gonna need to talk about today. But just helping them really think about what's true, how to live it out, how to have confidence and follow Jesus today. That's that's what I want to do. I came to Christ at 17. It was huge in in my journey of getting to kind of figure these things out. And then a lot of that God used for me to go, hey, what would be helpful for students to have during these age age ranges and time? And so, yeah, I get to work with Next Generation. and I studied Gen Z now studying Gen Alpha, doing research on all that good stuff. But really want to help help students follow Jesus for a lifetime. That's why I get up in the morning. That's that's the the big picture idea in terms of kind of why I do what I do and love to get to do that with Impact 360 where I get to do that year round and then speak and teach and all all the things. So that's that's the me in a nutshell.

[00:01:40]>> Awesome. Yeah. Getting up, fighting the good fight, blooming where you're planted.

[00:01:45]>> Um very cool. Yeah. So, I have you on today to talk about this this book, Welcome to College.

[00:01:50]>> It's a third edition cuz you got to update the nonsense every decade, apparently.

[00:01:55]>> Um, yeah. And, uh, it's actually, you know, covering a lot of the issues that college students are going to face going back to school.

[00:02:04]>> And I don't think that there's a stone that you left unturned. I mean, we're talking from atheism to moral relativism to critical theory, all the things. But when I was looking at it, the one thing that I thought that would be the biggest umbrella to cover is the attack on truth.

[00:02:23]>> Because underneath all of this, it is ultimately what what is true about reality, how to discern that, um how to critically think, how to know when something's off. Because when I went to college, I I'll be getting my fourth degree and two of them are from a secular college.

[00:02:42]>> It was a phenomenal experience. And I still remember a lot of things that I learned. And there was no activism back in that day. Like I didn't know >> what was what was what was that like?

[00:02:52]Like how how is that possible?

[00:02:54]>> It was amazing. I mean we had in-class discussions, disagreements. I had a political science class. Um I remember uh even music class that was one of the best class. Philosophy. Philosophy was great. I mean, we had a a great teacher who just sit back and let us kind of like debate. He's like, "Okay, well, why do you think that? What about this? What about that?" And I'm like, "That's incredible." And um he was all about calling out, you know, the the fallacies and getting us to think and now it's like so different. So, we're going to talk about that.

[00:03:28]>> Yeah.

[00:03:29]>> Um the first thing I want to start with Oh, and then we'll segue probably I want to talk to you about free speech. We'll get into that, too. Um, but there's this inconsistency, okay?

[00:03:40]Um, where back in the day it seems like it was atheism, right? Where where kids would go to school and this still happens, right? You'd have the atheist professor who just wanted to demolish your faith uh and and tell you all the things about the Bible that are, you know, sticky and stuff like that and you just weren't prepared at all. But now it's it's it's more than that. You have that professor, but you also have, you know, the postmodernism. You have uh the uh spiritual but not religious relativistic view, right? You have the newagers, you have um uh critical theory, right? All paths, all truths and all identities are equally valid. Do you think that students are more likely to be challenged by by the atheist professor or by these postmodern uh postmodern relativistic spiritual but not religious views? And why? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think they're more likely the more subtle one is going to be kind of the postmodern true for you but not for me kind of that seeping into everything because that just feels normal. And where I like to start with this is culture is what you come to see as normal without having to think about it. And good things can be seen as normal and bad things can be seen as normal. The problem is it just seems normal unless you stop and reflect. And so when students come onto a college campus or something like that in their new in a new environment, professor is nice, they're smart, they got a PhD behind their name, and all of a sudden they're kind of in in inoculating you, indoctrinating you into this kind of idea of look, you want to be judgmental, right? We want to we want to be open-minded. We don't want to be one of those kind of that kind of thing. And so, and we can get into the particulars on that, but basically what's happening is, yes, you will have the full front in terms of direct attack from the atheists every now and again, but it's in the classroom, it's much more kind of subtle and sideways influence. And especially, and this is one of the things I'm seeing more and more is with quote unquote Christian schools as well, you're just having this kind of progressive kind of undertone of everything and it's informed by all these things. And so if they don't know what they believe about truth or how to think well, then they're just going to get swept into that really quickly. And so I think uh to your direct answer to your question is that I think that postmodern relativism, true for you but not for me, that just becomes normal. And then if they're not kind of strong and confident, then they fall into it. Another thing that I kind of think about in terms with this whenever I approach students is I I assume they're a Christian relativist until they give me a reason to think otherwise. Um, and and what I mean by that is they they go to church and all that kind of stuff, but it's true for them, right? This way I grew up and I'm not going to impose that on anybody else. So, if they're coming in with their view of Christian relativism into a college environment where the norm is we put all beliefs out there and nobody can be wrong and you do you and you speak your truth and all that. That's the environment we have to prepare them for because that's the first subtle battle and they're just it's kind of like when you get on an elevator and everybody knows not to talk. Like nobody ever decided that. We didn't take a vote. Everybody's real quiet, right? And then all of a sudden everybody stops talking and then you know and then so once they get in that class and I guess I'm not supposed to talk about what I believe. I'm not supposed to talk about any of these things. And so so all of that's happening all at once. So that's kind of a entree into kind of some some of what we want to talk about.

[00:07:06]>> Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So, something else, another paradigm shift with this is I find myself linking, it sounds weird, but I find myself almost linking arms on some level with like the atheist professor when it comes to the the student who walks in with any other spirituality, right? It seems like Christianity, of course, you just want to nail the Christians, right? Like you can believe in anything you want and be tolerant of any belief system and even conserve >> certain beliefs and cultures except Christianity, right?

[00:07:39]>> Yeah.

[00:07:40]>> Okay. So, we do not agree there.

[00:07:42]>> But, um I find it quite interesting.

[00:07:45]It's it's almost I was talking with a friend about this and I'm in a very blue state and I'm right by University of New Mexico and uh I was talking with a friend who gave me this this idea, but basically she's saying that before the professor would kind of just zone in on the Christian, but now you're having all these different spiritualities, right? Where before it was like, oh, you guys don't don't get it. Like, you're disconnected from reality. You're disconnected from truth.

[00:08:17]>> And they just kind of push that on the Christians. Now >> it's like you have pronouns, you have a gender on the spectrum, right?

[00:08:25]And you have uh critical theory, postmodern truth, and it's like, are you going to do a Neil deGrasse Tyson, right? Are are you gonna go where he's going? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[00:08:36]>> Or are you going to actually be consistent with your worldview >> and pick on them, too? Right.

[00:08:43]>> Yeah.

[00:08:44]>> And it's that that's interesting to me because a lot of them >> do the Tyson. they they they're they're pivoting and so but some of them aren't right where you can kind of link arms with them and be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, we we can see something's clearly wrong here >> because Christians and and y'all, you know, we we don't agree spiritually speaking, but there's this um what's true, right?" And so I think that that's a very interesting uh situation. I actually wanted to ask you, have you what is if you've even thought about that or experienced that? Do you see professors in these college campuses who are typically atheistic uh pivoting at all or do you have an opinion on that?

[00:09:23]>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, I think that's a really good observation because in some ways two things are happening because kind of old school is they used to think rationality exists and they thought Christianity was irrational.

[00:09:34]Like there's no reason to believe it. So it's false. So we're going to just say the thing out loud and stop believing in fairy tales and leprechauns and the whole deal and let's be done with that.

[00:09:43]Um but then what they do is they now and this is what's fascinating Melissa is the students actually have more power in the classrooms than the professors do.

[00:09:52]>> Yes.

[00:09:53]>> And once it becomes clear that one of their identities, one of their preferences, one of their experiences gets thrown out into the room, all of the sudden the professor is now in a very interesting position. like am I gonna basically am I gonna be seen as intolerant and oppressive to this perspective you know whatever it might be identity or am I going to try to help these students come to conclusions about truth and so there's actually these these parallel tracks maybe we can talk about both of them but let me let me lay out a little bit of this in terms of how this would work so for example one of the things I do whenever I I'll speak to a group and a group will invite me in >> to speak to them and this is usually the part where the parents and everybody gets nervous who brought me in because I I'll I'll have all the student raise their hand. I'm like, "Hey, how many of you guys believe Christianity could be false?" And they're like, "Almost no hands go up." And I'm like, "How many think it could be true?" And then all almost all the hands go up. And then I'll be like, "Well, how many think it could be false?" None. Not as many. And then true. And then I go, "Well, how many you think Islam could be false?"

[00:10:54]All almost all the hands go up. How many you think Islam could be true? None of the hands go up. And then I go, "Well, what about Buddhism?" And then all the hands go up. It could be false. And then I come back to Christianity and I'm like, "How many you think Christianity could be false?" And and a couple more start to see where I'm going with this.

[00:11:12]I'm like, "How many think it could be true?" And then all of them. It's like, here's here's what I'm saying. If Christianity can't be false, then it can't be what either true. And if it's neither true or false, then it's no longer in the realm of rationality. You can't engage it. You can't interact with it. And that's not just my view. That's the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:17 and 18. And he says, "Look, if Jesus is not raised from the dead, your faith is worthless." Meaning, this didn't happen.

[00:11:34]Now, I don't think Christianity is false. In fact, we have a lot of good reasons why Christianity is true. But the first battle we have to fight is getting it on the rational table to begin with. So, it's not just relativized opinion, preferences, that kind of thing. And it's the kind of thing that could be false. So, that way you can have evidence that it actually is true. And so that's the first part because then you have the other side in the room and this is very common on a college campus or especially in in an environment where you don't have a lot of Christian kind of ideas kind of floating around or kind of nicities about it is you have kind of this well it's just true for you but not for me.

[00:12:12]We don't want to be judgmental. Yes, >> we don't want to impose our view. That's what I believe. Like that's how I was raised but I'm not going to push that on anybody else. And so in some ways you we have we have a twin task we have to do for Christians especially to go Christianity is a kind of thing that is in reality. It's either real or it's not. Either God exists or he doesn't but not both. Either Jesus was raised from the dead or not but not both. Right?

[00:12:40]Either Islam either Allah is the one true God and Muhammad is his prophet or not but not both. like we first have to get the reality conversation going and then we also have to deal with all these feelings, judgments, arguments, all these things. And maybe we can kind of walk through those slogans one by one in a minute. But so you have these twin things going on. So I think you're spot on because a professor once they see who's in the room is having to figure out, okay, am I going to actually try to argue for truth or am I going to just let this thing play out, you know? And I think that's the battle they have to face. And then students, I think, realize how much power they have, especially if somebody's video recording in the room and they're just recording this to clip it and put it online or, hey, this is what my close-minded professor just said today. And so an atheist who's going, Christianity is false and gender is real, like there's two genders, male and female, >> that's an atheist saying that, well then all of a sudden we're dealing with reality and that's a truth claim.

[00:13:38]But truth doesn't exist in this other realm where it's just you do you feel what you feel and you're you are who you say you are um not who reality says you are. And so those are the twin things we have to do. So we have to get truth on the table um because it really matters and then we also have to deal with all the slogans in navigating. So you almost have to have to be able to have the dual skill of reading the room to go, am I in the like is the atheist like are we in reality realm where we're actually trying to he thinks what I think is ridiculous like there's contradictions in the gospels and we have no idea how we got the text of the Bible and you know Christian is a fairy tale or is it stop being so judgmental and in turn impose and oppress and colonialism and all the things and then critical theory and all that and now it's just like well somebody else's lived experience is now going to reigning supreme in the classroom. So, there's ways to deal with both of them and we have to help students navigate both those things.

[00:14:36]>> Yeah. So, you mentioned some slogans before.

[00:14:39]>> Mhm.

[00:14:39]>> Do you want to go over those?

[00:14:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the ways I like to start here is is talking about look, just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Um, so in light of that, um, people have beliefs. It's like, well, I have a belief about this.

[00:14:54]Well, just because that doesn't make things true or false. Reality makes things true or false. And sincerity is not enough. And so this would be, well, my friend's so sincere in what they believe. Well, all of us have lived long enough to know that we've been what?

[00:15:07]Sincerely wrong. Whether it's a test, I mean, most students, you know, you've taken an SAT or ACT, they counted, they had the audacity to count your questions wrong, right? Or something like that.

[00:15:18]Sincerity is not enough. And so, and this is important because and in some ways, Melissa, what we have to keep doing is we have to because our our students have been raised in a relativistic culture. Um, and so, for example, I worked at the Waffle House for for one summer. And if you've ever been to a Waffle House, you know, you don't leave the Waffle House without smelling like a big waffle, and it takes a couple showers to get off you. Kind of like Starbucks, in case you've never been to a Waffle House. You just have that smell on you. they've grown up in a culture, this kind of post-truth culture where that's all over them and they don't even realize it. And so the first thing we have to do is go, well, look, just because you believe, like my my Mormon friend, for example, just because he believes the Book of Mormon is the word of God doesn't make it the word of God. Just because my Muslim friend believes the Quran is the word of Allah doesn't make it the word of God. Word of God Allah. And just because I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible's the word of God, it doesn't make it the word of God. just the belief part like sincerity is not enough. Reality makes things true or false. That's the first side of it. And so we have sincerity is not enough. this we we know this but that doesn't feel nice and people don't want to fe be seen as unloving or and then and then the second one is that flows right into is the who are you to judge >> and look good good good Christians wouldn't judge people right in fact I even think Jesus said something about right didn't he say something about not judging people along the way it's like amazing when the Bible verse comes in from the top rope on on that one um and so you have this idea and yes Matthew 7 talks about that but what is Jesus is talking about he's not he's talking about being self-righteous and judging rightly.

[00:16:54]>> Yes, >> we can't not evaluate things. He's not I mean in fact he literally makes a judgment a couple verses later in that passage.

[00:17:02]>> And so it's not being judgmental to disagree. And and and this is another layer that we have to get into is we sometimes feel unloving. And so most students don't want to feel judgmental or unloving. And to love someone means to seek their highest good, what's actually good for them, objectively good for them, not what they think is good for them. So that means helping them to understand what is real and true. In fact, you know, 1 Corinthians 13 talks about this, the love chapter, right?

[00:17:31]Love is patient, love is kind. But you keep going down to verse six, and it talks about it doesn't delight in evil, it rejoices in the truth. So love involves truth. And so the judgment slogan is is now could you could a Christian be a jerk? Absolutely. You know, being a spirit, you know, it's not a not a spiritual gift to to be a jerk.

[00:17:50]Like that's not a you wouldn't want to develop that one. Um but at the same time, just saying what's true out loud with your friends or with a professor doesn't make you unloving or judgmental.

[00:18:00]And Jesus is not addressing that because it's impossible not to condemn or evaluate beliefs that are already clearly addressed by by scripture or reality or something along the way. And so the sincerity, the who is a loving person issue, then there's the who is a judgmental person. And then there's the tolerant. We Christians are so intolerant, right? Well, we don't tolerate things we agree with. We tolerate things we disagree with or things like that. We have as Christians, and this is so important, I think we're the only worldview that treats people as made in God's image. And we have the ability to treat people well, even if they disagree with us. Even if they think we're crazy or don't like us or mean or whatever, we go, "No, my atheist friend, you're made in God's image. Uh my friend who struggles with your sexuality, you're made in God's image.

[00:18:50]My friend who is believing a different religion and following um Allah, you're you're made in God's image." that and and therefore I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect. So there's these things and slogans that come in there. I mean, how you feel determines what's real is one of the biggest um things that that they students have to navigate. Well, if I have a feeling about it, then it must be real. Well, then I'm like, quick question. How many times in your life have your feelings ever been wrong? Right? Anybody? And yeah, that all of us. And it turns out, well, maybe we shouldn't, you know, anchor life's biggest questions to how we feel in a in a given moment. And so, so how you feel determines what's real.

[00:19:26]That's not going to work. Majority vote.

[00:19:28]Like, let's let's do the Wikipedia approach, right? Let's just crowdsource truth and hope we get it right. Well, counting the number of people who agree on something doesn't determine what's real also. And so, again, we can we can walk through these slogans and sound bites because we've got to help students go, okay, I'm in an environment where either it's going to be a direct like, do you actually think this is real? or it's going to be everybody is kind of living their truth. We're not going to be judgmental. We're going to feel our feelings and we're not going to impose anything. And both of those have to be navigated differently. So, those are just some of the slogans and kind of how to begin kind of thinking about and addressing those.

[00:20:06]>> Yeah, it sounds like a logical fallacy.

[00:20:08]It's just critical thinking, which is something that it sounds strange, but it's the immune response to lies.

[00:20:18]I mean, it's it's been pretty rough the last six, seven years, right?

[00:20:24]>> But it's also a phenomenal immune response to see the raising up of Christians into engaging >> in a very different like in a critical thinking way because there's been like an anti-intellectual movement especially in the 1800s within Christianity that was very feelings based, very experiential. dare I say even mystical.

[00:20:49]>> Um, now, okay, so let's pivot from there because, >> okay, >> a lot of this what I really want to dig into is truth >> and reality and things like that. And >> let's talk about something that I think a lot of college students struggle with, particularly when it comes to the Christian worldview. But you might you might already answer this within your response or maybe I'll just put it into my question and see what you say. But the the idea of uh evil and suffering, right? Like Christianity being able to adequately explain uh evil and suffering. And usually what we'll hear is, you know what, you're God. You know, he just sits there from afar and he sees everything happening and he doesn't even do anything about it >> without realizing >> that their worldview has to deal with the same thing.

[00:21:44]>> Yeah.

[00:21:44]>> Like how does your worldview explain evil and suffering? Right?

[00:21:48]>> It all can't be right. Um, of course, atheists in general would have their response, but I'm thinking of the spiritual person. I'm thinking of the person who does believe in God, right?

[00:21:58]Um, maybe they're progressive, maybe they're a newager, maybe, you know, they they wear this other hat.

[00:22:04]>> Um, >> but how would you as a Christian, if I came to you, say I say say I am a newager and you're sitting on the college campus with your microphone and I'm like, you know what, John, you know what? You're over here talking about all this morality and all this stuff. You sound really judgmental and intolerant and as I sound judgmental and intolerant. By the way, I digress. But you know what? your God doesn't even do anything about evil and suffering, right? Look at look around you all the pain in the world. What would you say?

[00:22:34]>> Yeah, it's a it's a great question. And so what I would do, I would start with the first one and say, well, first it sounds like you're assuming that that the Christian worldview is the only one who has to answer this question. And the problem is is everyone has a problem of evil, right? The atheists, the Buddhists, the newager, everybody has a problem of evil. That's the first thing.

[00:22:53]And then the second thing is well what's the best response to it? And so and in this conversation I'm going to narrate something then I'll answer like I was talking to the person directly. As a Christian you need to make sure you problem of evil and suffering is two sides of of the same coin. There's an intellectual side where you're helping people think about the rational side of it and what's true and how does this make sense and then there's the personal and emotional side and you're always trying to figure out which one you're navigating in which situation. So if I were in that situation, I would try to engage, try to listen for and see, are they needing more of an emotional, theological, personal response to this?

[00:23:34]Or are they really wondering like, okay, if God is all loving, all powerful, and all knowing, and evil still exists, why is there still evil? God's a contradiction. That's a that's an intellectual question. Um, and so back to the to the conversation on campus, I'd be I'd be like, "All right, well, everybody's got that problem, so can you help me with something? what do you mean by evil? Um, and if they give me some sort of standard, you're looking for what's called the problem of good. So, if you're an atheist, you have a problem of good, not just the problem of evil.

[00:24:02]Like, there's a way things ought to be, that's good. There's a way and and a departure from the way things ought to be. That's evil. Okay? And then we'd move further to say, well, of all those things, Christianity best answers this because it actually takes the question seriously. See our eastern religion friends at the end of the day deny that evil is real. Like you know eastern religions like Hinduism and others well evil is kind of an illusion. It's Maya or something else or whatever it might be. Buddhism well the reason why you suffer is because you have desire. Well and if you eliminate desire then you wouldn't wouldn't suffer. And then so so it doesn't deal honestly with the evil side. Whereas Christianity does deal honestly. He says those things aren't right or those aren't good. they are a departure from the way things ought to be. And then the question is, well, okay, well, what does the Christian worldview uniquely bring to this? So, if they were asking, where is your God? And I would say, well, look, look, the God of the Bible, the God of Christianity doesn't just like use a spinning top and like start the world spinning like theism and just step away and never never interact with it. No, the God of the Bible enters into the problem. He doesn't remain aloof or detached or un unaffected by what's going on. He actually enters into it in Jesus in the person of Jesus Christ in the incarnation who lives life. He suffered and he was able to ultimately do something about it. Um I think the best illustration since they want to know what about the Christian God is John 11.

[00:25:31]I don't think there's a better illustration of how to not navigate the problem of evil from a a personal level but also what what Christianity uniquely brings to it. Jesus had a friend named Lazarus who Mary and Martha said, "If you would have if you would have been here, my brother would not have died."

[00:25:48]And so he was he allowed something. He was his friend. He grieved over it. Said Jesus wept. He actually wept. He was able to do something about it and he ultimately did. And in John 11, we see that Jesus says, "I'm the resurrection and the life." Right? And says, "Do you believe this?" Meaning that is what the Christian answer is. Because if you would have taken a snapshot of the disciples on Friday, we would feel of the Good Friday when the crucifixion actually happened when Jesus actually died. It looks like all hope was lost.

[00:26:22]Experience would tell us that Christianity was false or that God didn't care. But with the resurrection on Sunday and the Sunday morning we see that no our our initial experience of that and that seemingly distance was overturned by the reality of the resurrection. And so what Christianity uniquely offers the problem to the problem of evil and suffering is that God does not stand idly by. He enters into the suffering he can do something about it. He allows it and he does something about it and ultimately will make all things new and make all things right in the resurrection. And so rather than atheism which denies the problem of good like you there is no good or evil.

[00:27:03]There's just the evolutionary wheels grind onward and and that's just what you'd expect. It's blind pitil pitiles indifference as Richard Dawkins likes to put it. But Hinduism and Eastern religions well this is an illusion.

[00:27:15]Well, it sure feels real when my when my dad passes away or my brother passes away or something like that. When I when I have real loss, that seems to be real evil. And then Christianity says, "No, Jesus actually enters into that and can do something about it." So, it does it takes it seriously. So, I would say to my my newager friend on a college campus is like, "Wouldn't you want there to be a God who not only could do something about it, but did and entered into it and and what do you think about that?"

[00:27:44]um as opposed to just kind of you're on your own, tough luck. I mean, there's there's there's not a better answer out there. Um and so in terms of what Christianity neiqually offers is Jesus entering into the problem and doing something about it at the end of the day. Now, we could talk about other things around that that topic if you want, but in that moment, I would make it really personal and be like, look, at the end of the day, um Jesus offers you something in this to meet you in this and do something about evil and give you hope of a resurrection and hope of new life. What do you think about that? And what do you think is a better solution to that? And then have a conversation about it. Um, but most people at the end of the day will say, "Well, that's not fair. That's not good." And then they have to have a standard for that. But then it's really personal for them. And I'd be like, "Well, what would you want?

[00:28:31]Would you want someone who could come for you but not just make stuff up where there's real life and hope and grace that's available?" So those would be some of the conversations we'd have kind of depending upon how they respond as we interact. A lot of times when people go, "Well, the problem of evil and suffering is this big argument about God or argument against God." Turns out the answer to that is is usually the problem of hell, which people also raise. That's the flip side because why why won't God do anything about the evil? Well, he will someday.

[00:28:59]>> Yes.

[00:29:00]>> And he will judge and he will I mean but today is the day of salvation and one day will be the time of judgment. And God is not slow about his promise. He desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2 3 um through four four and five. And so and so he's he's waiting for them to have an opportunity to do that. But make no mistake, he will judge and he will make all things new. And this is so important for anybody who's watching who has experienced loss and pain or abuse or whatever. Like God is going to wipe away every tear and he will judge evil. And either people will be in Christ or they will be left to their own deeds to be judged by. But those are the only two choices at the end of the day, right?

[00:29:42]You either get grace or judgment, right?

[00:29:43]Those are the only two options at the end of the day. And so, so the problem of evil and suffering and then the problem of hell and is kind of they're this kind of the opposites. People, how how can a loving God send good people to hell? It's like, well, a loving God wants people to know him, you know, and then yet, well, why won't God do anything about the evil in the world?

[00:30:03]Well, he will one day. So, you can't have it both ways. you you got to have both justice and love that's perfectly put together at the cross of and that's what Romans 3 is such a beautiful passage that does that. Um and so it's it's helping people see that's like you know that thing it's like a little tuning forth that goes off in our soul like when we see things that shouldn't be that way we're like that shouldn't happen or that's not right or why doesn't God do anything that there's something very right about asking that question.

[00:30:32]>> Yes. But then there's also having a worldview that says no, God will judge that and he will do something about it and that is not right. It's just not yet. And because of his great love for us, today is the day of salvation until it's the day of judgment. And we don't know when that is. And that's what the the Christian worldview uniquely brings that the pantheistic worldview and those other worldviews you were talking about just don't.

[00:30:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting because a lot of times they'll they'll and I this is this is leading into my next question for you because what I'll find sometimes is an inconsistency where Greg Kokul puts it where um in his book story of reality which is back here. I love that book. It's really good. Great book.

[00:31:10]>> Um but um yeah uh he uses the example of uh puzzle boxes right where every worldview every belief system makes sense within that right and sometimes it doesn't. But it's like you can't you can't like you can't steal from Jesus to go crown Vishnu, right? Like you can't you can't just say I can't do that. I can't take from the Gas or the Vadas and and shove that into Christianity. It you're taking from a different puzzle box. And um I find that people do that with morality. How would you have a conversation about objective truth? How how would you reason with the person in front of you, whoever they are, about how to know what's objectively moral and true about any position that they would have at any point in time?

[00:32:00]Like what what is the basic framework for that?

[00:32:03]>> Yeah, that's really a great question.

[00:32:05]And so there's two parts of it. The first part I want to say something about the question that you raised about the interpretation part.

[00:32:11]>> Let's say that somebody brings an interpretation. Well, that's just your interpretation of reality or whatever.

[00:32:15]Here's just a simple way to kind of respond to that which will kind of clarify where you're at in this conversation. The first is, well, let can I ask you a question? Are you saying that you don't like my interpretation or are you saying you think my interpretation is false?

[00:32:30]>> It's false. Totally false. Yeah.

[00:32:32]>> And I don't like it. It's both.

[00:32:33]>> Yeah. It's both, right? And so if you don't like it, well, that's an emotional response. If you don't if you think it's false, okay, help me understand why you think it is. And this is the part where they're smuggling in the other worldview because they've got a picture of morality in their head whatever it is even if it's foggy around the edges where where you and Christianity is not living up to that. And so what you need to do tactically in that moment is try to say well help me understand so what is it that I'm doing wrong do you think or what is it about this like are you saying you shouldn't push your morality on other people and then you could also because so that thing what we'd say well do you think well why are you pushing your morality on me is that your morality like do you think people shouldn't push their morality on that right >> you just have a harmful belief system uh Christianity has done so much harm >> in in the past and you know you it's just a right man's religion and um gosh look at all the the look at all the terrible things that Christianity has brought to the world and blah blah blah >> and so so what is it what is a terrible like what is wrong with those things on your view >> well it's racism like you guys are so >> racist you shouldn't so so and where in the Bible is you talking about is it where where are Christians racist >> you're always coming to these college campuses and you're talking about you know the the relations with, you know, black people and white people and, you know, all the cop these cops, you know, they're, >> you know, they're killing black people.

[00:34:04]I have I have so many friends who tell me stories about how Christians have just really harmed them and they're so judgmental.

[00:34:11]>> And I just think that you guys don't realize your internal racism.

[00:34:16]>> Yeah. And so at that point, what I would share is like, well, do you have that's a standard for right and wrong? And actually, Christianity, not sure you're aware of this, but Christianity actually ended the slave trade. and actually abolishes slavery where it goes and flourishes according to scripture. That's not what she talks about.

[00:34:32]>> That's not what I've heard.

[00:34:34]>> Yeah. And so, and so the question there is is like, well, have you ever investigated this? And because you might be operating at a a slogan or sound bite level where I'd be like, okay, >> give me a specific example and then you're going to walk people through. And then you're bringing a standard to say, well, >> you're assuming that you shouldn't treat people differently based based on their race or ethnicity. I agree with you. But that's something Acts chapter 17 in the Bible says like like everybody had slavery. Only Christianity ended slavery. Like there's like that wasn't unique to the world. And so there's things that we have standards on that we have to do something about. All the injustices in history. Well, all of that is back to our earlier discussion about their smuggling in questions. Well, there's a way things ought to be and a departure from the way things ought to be. And I'm going to try to go what's your standard for that? What are the kinds of things that you would say are wrong and why? And then what are the things that you say are good and why?

[00:35:27]And where does that come from on your view? And then where I want to go is to try to say, well, look, you know, what is your solution to that? Like how do you think you fix that? And that's always an interesting discussion because people, well, we want we want no more religion. Well, what about what about that do you not like? Do or do you not want? It's like, well, what do you offer in its place? And so part of the thing that you're doing there is especially if they start throwing out a lot of those great slogans like you did and just kind of kept stacking them on top of each other is let's deal with this one by one. Let's sew it down and say, "So you think racism is wrong, right? Why is racism wrong? Maybe they're an atheist."

[00:36:05]I'm like, "Well, in atheism, can you please help me understand why racism would be wrong?"

[00:36:11]And then maybe you don't like it. Um but it doesn't give you a um a reason for treating it. There is no human being made in God's image. Um, Hinduism, you got the cast system. So, people aren't created equal in Hinduism, Eastern religions. All of those things are Christian. All like there's so many things that we inherit in our 21st century world that Christianity gave us like the goodness of marriage and family and dignity for women and hospitals and education for everybody and all these good things that we stack throughout history that once we actually look at those we go well actually those are good gifts that Christianity gave the world and it's not about this oppressive piece and then that's where we have to get back to what's true what's your worldview what's your standard and kind of how you build it out from there so those would be some of the things that would interact with her on that.

[00:36:57]>> Yeah, that's good. It reminds me also of >> how um it can be kind of self-defeating because sometimes people will argue, well, all religions just basically teach the same thing.

[00:37:11]>> Yeah.

[00:37:11]>> And yet at the same time say the answer is that we got to do away with religion.

[00:37:15]Okay. Well, which one is it? Like which religion?

[00:37:18]>> Yeah. And right there that question is like if they go all religions basically teach the same thing. The question there is, well, in what way are all religions basically the same? And then see what they say.

[00:37:29]>> They all they all teach love, John.

[00:37:31]Okay. Every religion is basically teaching love. And we're all climbing this mountain. And this mountain good is, you know, we're all going up into the same way just in our own different paths. I'm I am so glad you brought up the mountain illustration because here's how we think about this because it because we go up the mountain and here's the thing and actually this is an argument for Christian worldview in the foothills you're going to have good and bad and a kind of a moral kind of people ought to be good and nice and so but that actually fits by the way with the biblical worldview of Romans 2:15 where the law is written on our heart you would expect everyone around the world to have a general sense of right and wrong but if you keep going up the mountain and you ask the question, well, who's waiting for you at the top of the mountain? Two questions. As you go further up, all those worldviews diverge on. They have different views of salvation, sin, heaven, hell, justice, all the things. They're very different.

[00:38:27]And at the very top, you actually have different people waiting for you at the top of the mountain. So, Buddhism is largely atheistic. So, there is no literal god waiting for you at the top of the mountain.

[00:38:38]>> Christianity, you have a trinitarian god. In Muslim, in Islam, you have a unarian god. In Hinduism, you have many gods, but ultimately reality is one. So, you're not even going up to the same mountain. So, in the foothills, you have general right and wrong categories. And Lewis and others have talked about this.

[00:38:54]But that makes sense if there's a standard that we all have that we fall short of that we have some sort of moral category. But the further you go up, the specifics matter. Well, how do how do you deal with sin, redemption, reincarnation, all the things? They're very different and they're very different at the top. So you can help people see that the who's waiting for you at the top of the mountain objection actually really doesn't work to show that all religions teach the same thing.

[00:39:15]In fact, actually what it shows you is that the clearer you get on what the religion is saying, then you see actually no, those are very different beliefs at the end of the day and they're very they're claiming different pathways to God or no God at all, they're not teaching the same thing.

[00:39:28]>> There's one more thing I want to talk to you about that I think is really important >> about the college campus conversation and that's about free speech.

[00:39:36]>> Yeah. free speech because um this gets into critical theory a little bit. I had the hardest time wrapping my mind around this when I was learning about critical theory because it seemed so contradictory. I couldn't understand why the people who were protesting the most were complaining about their lack of free speech. Um I'm like this is free speech, right? And so we I want to get into this. Um I want you to hash that out. All right.

[00:40:05]what exactly is their point? What what is it from their mind that they think is is you know there's this attack on free speech that we need to fight for as they practice as they exercise their free speech.

[00:40:19]>> Um and then talk about the critical theory lens, right? Um that a lot of college college students are experiencing and seeing that I don't think they're realizing they're adopting, right, of the oppressed versus oppressor. Go ahead and uh tell us about it. Yeah. So, here's here's real quick about the critical theory kind of lens in three quick steps. First, if you don't have knowledge, all you're left with like if the hard science is the only thing that gives you knowledge, then you can't have moral knowledge, spiritual knowledge, historical knowledge. Okay, that moves to the next step. And so, you lose truth. We've already talked about that.

[00:40:55]It's true for you, but not for me. So, once you lose knowledge, you also lose truth. And then the third step in that is all you're left with is then power at the end of the day. And then power is where the critical theory piece comes in because basically the essence of a critical theory worldview is you either have people with power or without power.

[00:41:16]They're the oppressed or the oppressor.

[00:41:19]So therefore, let's just take an example of racism. Um someone in a minority status cannot be racist because they're not holding the power. It's not about treating someone differently with prejudice or if their background or for a different reason. The Bible calls that the sin of partiality by the way in James. But >> um but basically someone can't be and that's why you end up with so many things that seem weird and counterintuitive in today's modern campus worldview where you have like like gays for Palestine. You have all these different kind of things. You're like why do those two worldviews go together? like well LGBTQ is an alliance of against the power structure of white Christian male nuclear family female motherhood fatherhood children nuclear family that kind of thing. So there's an alliance of LGBTQ against the patriarchy to bring down the patriarchy and then they've got to sort that out as they go. But now you keep adding alliances. So, for example, on modern campuses, you'll have, well, the gays for Palestine or things like that or whatever it might be or gays for Gaza and things like that that you'll see you're like, what what is the connection? Because Islam does is not friendly towards homosexuals, right? It is not that those two worldviews are in conflict. Well, if you understand critical theory and the the concept of an ally, all you have is a press and oppressor categories and you're either above the line or below the line. And that's why you have to make sense of that. Which side are you on? So, for example, some people think that the Jewish people, well, they're white adjacent, so they're above the line. So, therefore, they're you can't be racist or you can't be anti-semitic because they deserve it because they're in power. So, critical theory applied to that as well. And so that's why the critical theory mood is so hard because it eats through everything along the way because it reduces truth and knowledge that you can't know those things. Truth doesn't exist and all you're left with is power. And then you either impose your your view and then that's where you get to speech because now you're like, well, how do people use power and how do they wield power with their words? And therefore, if somebody is in the oppressed or the oppressor category will determine whether or not they should quote unquote have free speech or not.

[00:43:40]Because if you have speech that you disagree with from the oppressor category, then they don't need to have it. You need to silence them. They need to be quiet. They need to listen. They need to learn. But if you're in the oppressed category, then you should be able to speak your truth, live your truth, and say those words because you're now using power and taking power back to try to take down the oppressor.

[00:44:04]And so that's what's going on in the background. That's kind of underneath the surface of what's going on in the in the college campus, the modern postmodern culture. these critical theories and they're plural, they show up in all different areas, whether it's gender, whether it's sexuality, whether it's, you know, oppressed, oppressor, and different abbleism or whatever it might be. Um, but eventually, and then queer, like for example, the queering of America that blends all the edges and there's no such ma thing as masculine and no such thing as feminine, which is automatically opposed to what Jesus said. Matthew 19, God made them male and female. Two genders is what Jesus taught. So, you have all of that blending. You have all of that happening and so you have power and you have oppressor oppressed categories and then you got free speech. Well, where does that come from? Well, a Christian worldview and this is where people get confused because you kind of grow up in a world in which people ought to be free to say what they want to say and have and I and being tolerant means you have the right to be wrong and I extend to you the right to be wrong. Now tell me why you think I'm wrong and I'll tell you why I think you're wrong and let's have a conversation. That's one world view. The Christian worldview allows for that. It actually allows for dignity, conscience, free speech, words, interaction, exchange of ideas, >> freedom, >> freedom, which is a great thing >> like like imagine, right? Freedom, free speech.

[00:45:30]But our our our friends who are more progressive, socialist or even other like right now kind of the contested public square we live in. You have the critical theory stuff fueling the progressivism and socialism and communism of our day. And then you've also got the Islamism in terms of this kind of public Islam movement that's becoming more prominent in cultures, societies, and everything else. Well, you don't get free speech in Islam. You don't get free speech in progressive circles. you get if you agree with this speech, but you don't get free speech.

[00:46:01]And so that's the dynamic that's at play. But at the core of that is critical theory has literally changed the rules of engagement. So we're like, I want free speech and it's like on Quizlet or you're doing a vocabulary word and it says free speech on the front and you click on it and it goes to the back. And that's where you have two very different definitions operating today, which is well, I agree and we can disagree and I'm going to give you my reasons and thoughts. you can give me your reasons and thoughts and we can maybe come to the truth about this matter. But then over here it's like no that I actually don't want truth. I want agreement. I want you to hold my view.

[00:46:36]And if you don't hold my view, get out of the way or we're going to remove you or silence you or cancel you. And so free speech is not going to bubble up from within critical theory, but they're understanding it as a virtue when in reality it's not. It's not actually free or speech that's going to be redemptive because truth is not the end of it. It's imposing power is the end of it. And so those are kind of the two diametrically opposed views of free speech we see today in critical theory is undergirling one and kind of a crish Christian worldview of an image bearer who has freedom of conscience and speech and ideas and we even allow people who disagree with us to speak. Um that's a very different thing too, right? And so those are the two things operating. I don't know if you want to go into other particular places on that, but those are kind of the two big ways free speech is being talked about and operating in our culture today.

[00:47:29]>> Yeah. So, it's a just a redefinition of it. Um, you know, that it's like equivocation. So, >> yep.

[00:47:36]>> Yeah. You have free speech as we understand it, which is the definition you gave, but then they have their definition of free speech, but it's a little asterisk, right? little star where it's like hate speech isn't free speech.

[00:47:49]>> Yeah, cuz it's violence.

[00:47:51]>> Well, then what's hate speech? Speech. I don't like >> speech I don't like. Speech doesn't make me feel good. Well, then now truth back to how you feel determines what's real and you're back down that rabbit hole where we started. Because if you don't have truth, then you don't get anything else. And if you remove truth and you remove knowledge, then we're no longer persuading. we're just imposing or getting enough allies to make our way happen by power or force or coercion. We see that online. We see honestly, I mean, there's probably no clearer way that this looks right now than um well, there's lots of them, but this one's prominent. If you ever watched recently um congressmen or senators, they're literally giving speeches to empty rooms in Congress for the little clip that they can then share online and show their little slogan, their view about the speech that they want. Um as opposed to not why this is true, but they're literally it's it's kind of it's it's kind of speech is activism. And so you no longer have a rational argument that this is what's good for the country, the public good, common good, any of that.

[00:48:55]You know, it's this person being attacked, victimhood, and then if you can get that, then they're oppressed, and then you can get that, and you can get sympathy, and then you got emotion, then you get manipulation, and then you're down. And and we're no longer talking about truth anymore. We're not talking about goodness or what's good for people anymore. We're just talking about what I want, how I feel, what I can make happen by by power and my allies. And you're just seeing that more and more. And social discourse really is just and that's the world that students, teenagers are are walking into. And so if you're a teenager watching this or if you're a parent watching this and you've not given them an ability or framework to think about how do I know what's true? How do I spot these false claims?

[00:49:38]How do I stand up for myself or in the appropriate way and have confidence to navigate these things? They're going to get chewed up and spit out really quickly. And unfortunately, we see that happen a lot. And a lot of students just wilt under the pressure because it's challenging, right? You go into a situation where they're trying to impose a world view and you're the only one in the room not using your pronouns, then that's hate speech and you're doing violence. They're like, I I don't want to do violence. I'm just I I grew up Christian. That's what I'm here. Um I don't understand. I used to go to church. I guess you guys don't go to church. And and that and it's like it doesn't compute. So, if they've never done anything around these ideas or training or equipping, they're going to get completely blindsided by this. And it sends a lot of them for a loop because they've not cuz they don't want to be unloving and they're like, "Well, I've I have friends and they're saying I'm being hateful with my speech and now now they're like feeling bad about it, you know, and now they're wrestling with all that." So, that all those things are connected. Like there's ideas under the surface and then they play out in everyday situations, but we have to be able to connect them and narrate how those connections work so that that people can see it and they're like, "Ah, now I see what's going on there." And I can actually move into that with some clarity and confidence, which is the better way to go.

[00:50:52]If we can understand this this framework, this critical theory, oppressed versus oppressor lens, we will understand the violence from the left because it's a feature of progressivism because of everything you just said that if I say something that's hate, right, that they consider to be hateful, >> that's literally violence to them. So then the reaction to that ought to be or it can be justifiably violent.

[00:51:30]>> Yeah.

[00:51:30]>> Like that that's if you can get that, you can understand, you know, and then the fruits of this are you'll lose your soul, man. I I I've heard sad stories of of kids just going off to college and they hate themselves. They hate everybody. like they become these activists and um it's it's it's something that they think that they're doing for good, but it's really if you can if you can prepare them, right, if you can tell them all these things, it also reminds me of uh it's interesting every time the critical theory or uh you know the I want to say the war against truth and reality comes up, I always think of Lord of the Rings.

[00:52:10]>> Oh yeah. Amen.

[00:52:11]>> Amen. Always. because it's um you're you're suspending goodness and truth for power.

[00:52:20]>> And I think I can think of no other time in our generation that it's such a relevant I know it's myth, but it's not right.

[00:52:29]>> Yeah.

[00:52:29]>> Um it it's it's pulling from these these greater uh spiritual truths to make a point about human nature.

[00:52:37]>> Yeah. There's and there's this great there's this great line in uh in the movies where Aragorn is talking to King Theodin and Theodin is safe down in his area at least he thinks he is and he's like I would not risk open war and he's like look war is coming to you whether you risk it or not.

[00:52:51]>> Yes.

[00:52:52]>> And and and the and what I think is so important about that is we are in a war.

[00:52:57]Obviously spiritually we know that the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy.

[00:53:01]But there's a battle for ideas and hearts and minds of kids and students and families that the enemy is at war whether we think we're at war or not.

[00:53:09]Now, we are gentle with people, but we are ruthless with ideas. Like, but unfortunately, Christians flip that and then they're gentle with ideas and ruthless with people and then we're angry and all that. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. That's not good. We want to be I want to think well, think clear. I want to make sure you are thinking rightly and I want you to treat that person in front of you with dignity and kindness and give them the hope of the gospel and point them in a true way and be able to absorb all that honestly deception that they've been indoctrinated into and the blindness and Christian the Christian story is big enough for that and that's what is so beautiful about being true is but there is a war make no mistake about it I mean that's why I mean that's why I love what you do so much you help people find the truth I work with students and I'm like look you've got to understand not only are you meant to survive, but it's really important that you're out there actually making disciples and sharing the gospel and advancing the cause because people are lost and deceived.

[00:54:06]Like it's not just you not losing your faith. We definitely want that to occur.

[00:54:09]Like you don't lose your faith, but you also want to be advancing because you know it's like that's so important to give them a vision big enough. And that's one of the reasons why I wrote them to college is like I want them to live a part of that bigger story is to go look you don't have to stand idly by and watch your friends be deceived. You can go hey have you ever considered what do you think about this? You know wait let's stop let's think about that. Does that s that may sound right but is that really right? Is that really is that really the way you want to live? You know and and then we're well positioned to do that because Christianity is actually true. We don't have to be defensive. We don't have to be, you know, kind of looking to them to get our significance or security or any of that.

[00:54:49]We can go, look, hey, I care about you, but let's talk about this, you know, and then sometimes they will they'll engage and then we can help them think about that. And so, it's so vitally important.

[00:55:01]I'm glad you brought up Lord of the Rings. I talk about that stuff all day, but it's so important like just >> anytime I can sneak in a Lord of the Rings reference, I am Yeah.

[00:55:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and one one thing to tie that in a bow is one reason why it's like it's first or no, is it 2 Timothy 4 um the Lord's servant must not be quarrelome but kind and gentle to everyone in hopes that you know uh the Lord will lead them to repentance. Yeah.

[00:55:27]It's such an important scripture and I think if you again if you play that movie forward if you remain steadfast and I I can I can think that people watching can think of somebody in their head who's like this >> where they're very firm in their Christian convictions and belief but they're very very kind about it right um and maybe they're a little annoying because like they're the sensible one right like they're the one who's like you know like Chucky from Rugrats like I don't think this is a good idea. idea, guys, you know, or it's like, oh, you're the annoying, you know, killjoy or whatever. Um, nobody likes the sensible one in the room. But yeah, I could You are very brilliant. Where did I put your book? It's right here. Um, welcome to college, guys. Uh, be sure to check it out. Where can people pick this book up at?

[00:56:12]>> Yeah, if they go to um Amazon, of course. So, if they go to welcome to college.org, you'll have a free PDF that goes with it. You'll have links to the book. There's other interviews on that as well. You can get it on Amazon, anywhere, you know, books are sold. And then you can get a hand on that and you can walk through it. Short chapters, summaries.

[00:56:30]>> Yes, >> there's a lot of topics, but but there's a lot of stuff in there, but it's meant to be something that you can use for every area of life as you follow Jesus for a lifetime and learn those foundations during the teenage years, which is so critical.

[00:56:43]>> Yeah. I don't know that I'm I don't know if there's a topic you don't cover in here. And these are very bite-sized chapters. You can skip around. And what I particularly liked is after the end of every chapter, you have suggested reader readings to dig deeper. Love that because people ask for references all the time. So guys, be sure to check out uh the description for more information.

[00:57:04]And John, I want to thank you so much for coming on my channel today.

[00:57:07]>> Hey, it's been a blast, Melissa.

[00:57:08]Anytime, any way I can help. So appreciate you and all you're doing. So let's keep at it.