Hassan Omar knew exactly what he was doing. Politicians are behaving badly — Ngunjiri Wambugu

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]looking into game plan 2027. Former Ytown MP um is here with us and Guji Gujiri Wabogo is here. Good morning.

[00:00:08]>> Good morning.

[00:00:09]>> How are you doing?

[00:00:10]>> I can't complain.

[00:00:11]>> You can't?

[00:00:11]>> I can't complain. Okay.

[00:00:13]>> That's a good thing.

[00:00:14]>> It's a good place to be here. I would >> I choose to complain but I choose not to complain. So yeah.

[00:00:20]>> Well, I mean it's good to have you here and >> to be here. Thank you.

[00:00:23]>> You know, a lot has happened. A lot continues to happen in the conversations um uh that or rather in the happenings uh in the country and the conversations spur from that and then get people to understand okay so this is the direction in which we should be going but and then there's been a lot of vitil uh unfortunately um and things that you thought would die down uh don't >> yes >> and I can make that connection between a rumbling that has been heard perhaps in a school and it was not handled And we wake up on uh Thursday morning and 10 girls are dead.

[00:00:59]>> Yes. Yes. Thoughts and prayers are with me girls at this moment. Yeah.

[00:01:04]>> Perhaps something would have been done about uh a dissatisfaction or something that could have been spoken about and that particular fire would have been quelled but it didn't. And if we can draw parallels between that and what's currently happening in the political space where there are tribal slurs >> that are taking place on ethnicity.

[00:01:28]>> Mhm.

[00:01:28]>> Uh but before we get into all of that um today's proverb comes from the Gambia.

[00:01:35]>> Yes. And Dennis will share that with you. We'd love to get your interpretation.

[00:01:37]>> And the proverb says a disobedient foul obeys in a pot of soup. A disobedient what? A foul. Okay. Obeys in a pot of soup.

[00:01:50]Essentially, what I understand that to mean is that a fall can actually be disobedient out there.

[00:01:57]Once it's put in a bowl of soup, it has to play. It has to fit into that. It's already in a space. I mean, it's it's food. It it just does whatever it's >> so you could have a moment when you're out there and you can be disobedient but when you get put into a particular space you have to flow with whatever is happening.

[00:02:16]>> Exactly.

[00:02:17]>> Well said. I understand.

[00:02:19]>> Yes indeed.

[00:02:21]>> So just getting into the weekend we heard what we heard and a lot of folks are saying well you know don't talk about it too much just let it go. It was said there was an apology that was rendered. Just leave it alone. We don't have to deal with it. It's been put out.

[00:02:35]Let it go. And if I'm going to draw the parallels that I'm drawing, it's the same thing here. Like, okay, maybe people made noise in school on a Thursday evening and then there was some uproar, but you know, snuff it out and let it go.

[00:02:48]>> On this particular one, folks not seem to be letting it go. That members of parliament came out yesterday and said if the person who said this thing is does not resign or is not put out from a particular party, then we will leave the party. and it's it's continued to escalate.

[00:03:07]>> So, what are we dealing with here? Is there an an adv an aversion to this ethnic tribal slur or is it politics playing out? Is there an issue with ethnicity and tribalism in this political arena?

[00:03:28]>> Okay, thank you. Thank you. First let me um say my thoughts and prayers uh with the parents and children and the families affected in Utumishi um in that fire. I mean I it's as a parent you I can just try and imagine you've got a child in that school >> what's going on right now.

[00:03:49]>> Mhm.

[00:03:49]>> And and I pray we are not going to find that something that could have been avoided. um it it would be very sad if it's something that could have been avoided that >> wasn't and led to this.

[00:04:01]>> But then the connection and of course the correlation with what what do you tried to bring it and say maybe there was something that had been flagged that wasn't done and then led to this >> and now today we are all sad and and and and moaning but then you look back and you know Africans we don't like doing those things. We when you have when you have an accident and maybe your car was in a bad state, nobody wants you to say that maybe your car was in a bad state.

[00:04:27]We want to say it was an act of God.

[00:04:29]>> And and you know, so when you look at the at the politics of the moment first, these are actually politicians behaving badly. I was somewhere else and I said we just it's politicians having bubble diarrhea, bad manners.

[00:04:43]>> Yeah. And and when you get to a situation where you say what Hassan said and then the reactions come the way they coming first of course there's opportunistic reactions.

[00:04:56]>> There's opportunistic reactions. There are people who have taken this as an opportunity. Of course with the bi-elections in Okalao there's one side of the political divide that has seen this as fodder that they can use to hammer the other side >> you know. So the opposition is is escalating this conversation so that they can use it to show uh how these are really bad people. Then of course within government there are people who want to run away from this and make sure it doesn't stick to them especially the Kenya government from m Kenya who are in government >> and that's how you now start hearing the kind of uh threats and and and what do you call them deadlines being given that if you don't get out >> 48 hours we leaving >> also because this is something very difficult to sell in m Kenya that you're working with a who said what he said.

[00:05:49]But then there's also a much deeper um conversation we need to be having. It said that from the heart the mouth speaks, right? Um there was no provocation to that conversation. So there somewhere it came from and I think that's now what we need to have a conversation about. Was this an isolated case or is this about I mean there are people who are clapping.

[00:06:15]So yes, we can tell the person who said it to say sorry.

[00:06:18]>> But there are people who engaged with his thought and found it to be attractive.

[00:06:23]>> Yes.

[00:06:24]>> And to be something cuz you see he didn't apologize then. Nobody stopped him at that moment.

[00:06:30]>> He apologized later when there was a backlash from somewhere else. So where he was speaking at and within the within the environment he was speaking uh the people he was speaking to people around him there was a there was they didn't see it as bad as we saw it later. Mhm.

[00:06:48]>> So what does that mean? You know, I have heard him try to explain. In fact, his apology wasn't really an apology. It was an explanation. You know, the way you say something and then people tell you no, that came out bad. No, no, that's not what I meant. This is what I meant.

[00:07:03]So, it's really not an apology. It was of this is what I meant. But in case you misunderstood me, I am sorry. But he also went out yesterday >> additionally and said, well, I was referring to one person. He came out and said very clearly this is the person that I was referring to. But again, I'm just saying sorry in case you know it was a clarification. It wasn't an apology that >> I meant those bad things you think I said.

[00:07:31]>> I didn't say them about you.

[00:07:33]>> I said them about her.

[00:07:35]>> Yeah.

[00:07:36]>> It's like it is okay to say certain bad things about a particular person >> but not about another person. And and the problem is that once you say it, you can't choose how I interpret it. See, you said it.

[00:07:51]>> My interpretation is mine.

[00:07:53]>> You might have meant to talk about Uhuru for example, but me, I chose to interpret it >> to mean anybody like Uhhuru, >> anybody who has property, anybody who has land. So why would you say it as a leader? Why would you open that door?

[00:08:07]Because now closing it has become very difficult.

[00:08:09]>> Do you think he was speaking for himself?

[00:08:13]Hassan comes from the coastal area and and the issue of land is a highly motive political conversation and I think because it's still a story that he might be running for office in 207 he was picking a hot potato or hot potato issue in the region and using it as ammunition and throwing it fast before anybody else.

[00:08:34]>> But he's not stupid. He's not stupid.

[00:08:36]This is a lawyer. This is the man who's worked with Kenya right commission. He's been a senator.

[00:08:41]He's not. He's very intelligent. He must have known exactly what he was doing.

[00:08:45]You had to come and apologize for it later. Then you want to ask a couple of questions. He knew exactly what he was doing. And he also knew that once you throw it out, >> an apology is not doesn't take it away.

[00:08:56]Words said cannot be unsaid.

[00:08:58]>> You can apologize, you can explain. You will never be able to pull back those words.

[00:09:02]>> And and you see the the words had the reaction it was required. you hadu uh on Monday >> responding to it and and and maybe that was the idea put him in a place where you put him in the defense and now he has to >> come out because I I don't know whether would have come out if that comment had not been made >> because it was both it was it was a multi-level attack >> as you said there's a community that feels that it was attacked which is which I come from and it's it's a dangerous thing for us to hear that kind of conversation cuz we know and asuru said we know where this goes. Um but then there's also himself who is who has interests in what it is that was said and who must have felt now threatened especially coming from somebody in government in a government that he doesn't think is friendly to him.

[00:09:53]>> So he must have been wondering okay where are you guys going with this.

[00:09:55]>> Yeah. Majuri I want to look at it um because we can't say that um Hassan didn't know what he was saying. He knew exact exactly what he was saying. I said that was not an apology and an explanation.

[00:10:06]>> Yeah. And you've seen others um you you've called them opportunistic reactionists. Let me call them that.

[00:10:12]Right.

[00:10:13]>> But we are not seeing opportunistic reactions from agencies that are mandated to deal with this. Why? You talk about uh NCIC UD UDA um as a as a party in terms of reprimanding its own you know and calling him out as as as a party. uh you talk about DCI nothing from these agencies and from where Kenyans sit they're looking at it as >> this person belongs to a party that has formed a government and all the other government agencies that is being led by them are silent so the government knows exactly what was said the reason why they are silent are Kenyans >> right in thinking that way I think um okay first give credit where due I saw something by NCSC.

[00:11:01]>> Okay.

[00:11:01]>> Uh I mean I mean you know we can say doesn't something we saw something by Nc.

[00:11:09]>> But when we say Hassan is not a fool the explanation he's giving is removing him from a crime to bad to bad manners.

[00:11:19]>> Mhm.

[00:11:20]>> You see according to the law when you attack a community you've committed a crime. When you attack an individual you haven't. M when you have a when I say you're a bad person, you're a thief, you're what? You can choose to sue me, but this is now between me and you. So, it's no longer a crime. CI can't come in and investigate me. NCIC cuz I said me, I don't like so and so. And I said it and there's nothing in the law that says I have to like him.

[00:11:49]>> So, his explanation is actually moving back. He's he's moving he's backpeddling from a situation where we would be saying you attacked a community. That's why he keeps saying I did not attack a community >> cuz attacking a community is breaking the law.

[00:12:03]>> Yeah, >> that one you can be sued, you can be arrested, you it's hate speech. So he's moving back from that one and you see he's being very consistent. I didn't attack a community, attack an individual.

[00:12:15]>> So that's now where what now this is a smartness and the legal background and the understanding he has that if I stay within this space, there's nothing you guys can do to me. You might hate me but I'm also being popular in my place because my language what I'm saying I mean I always remember a gentleman called critical who spent a long time battling that land issue again politics that's ended up as politics and then it ended up being a whole big problem that he spent I think 20 25 years trying to solve >> so >> that I think is a game that Hassan was playing but then also I think he was just trying to make um his bosses and and and because remember there's been a very major outcry within government aboutu >> so you find a you find a low hanging fruit >> is a large is a large land owner in Mombasa we have historical issues in Mombasa and you just zero it in and you say >> it's you >> okay so if that elicited the response that it did and that we saw that there was a lot of upsetness that took place as a result of that >> can you then equate to there being an ethnic tribal issue in the country or were people just upset because you're going to come at me. What was it? Can it be that somebody needed to be apologized to and then we you know pat down our clothes and keep it moving or is there a deeper issue here that look because the the thing about conversation is that we must be honest >> that is there an issue that the people of central Kenya have when somebody comes at them based on what they do or how they are in the political sphere. The 10 members of parliament who came out yesterday said very clearly >> if he's not removed >> we are moving >> we are removing >> we are leaving this party. Now does it speak to that an individual was attacked or does it speak to their entire >> community >> community was attack feels >> that uh they were attacked and we cannot have this if that's the case are they different from anybody else >> first um let's let's first finish with the issue of the apology >> Hassan didn't apologize to >> he's actually been very clear >> I'm not apologizing to this guy this is a guy I was attacking What I'm apologizing is to those people who think >> they were hurt.

[00:14:40]>> I attacked other people beyond him.

[00:14:43]>> So that's the first thing. Now and I earier I said that what you say you can't tell me how to interpret it because once you attacked Uhuru and Uhuru is we still see Uhuru as our political leader as M Kenya at this moment in time then we feel as if you've attacked us then you have a history which alluded to on Monday of 2007 >> and he made a very interesting statement. He said 2007 did not just happen. 2007 built up over time and it began with comments like this was >> and that how does that comment begin?

[00:15:15]Today you're attacking Huru then tomorrow you're going to attack another big land owner in Mombasa. Then before you know it you're attacking big land owners anywhere and it spreads out. Now where I think it could get tidier, you see when Mount Kenya leaders in UDA for example do a press conference alone then you have actually confirmed that it was a community that was being attacked.

[00:15:39]>> I would have wanted to see a lot more a bigger representation of UDA leadership >> from various communities not just Kenya region >> condemning what Hassan has said because then that way we'd all be agreeing what he has said is bad for all of us. But they did >> beyond beyond just you see this M Kenya people were 20 10 people. If I had been in parliament at that time I would have mobilized a lot more people from outside on M Kenya. So so that our threat and our challenge to Hassan is not a regional challenge. We're challenging from a national platform. What you said was wrong.

[00:16:16]>> Just because you said it about M Kenya or Mount Kenya feels wrong. Even if tomorrow you said it about valley >> or about the coast, it would still be wrong. so that we stop isolating this and making a m Kenya issue. anybody who speaks the way Hassan spoke about anybody else >> anyone okay >> and I have been very I have been very consistent about that in my I'm sure you follow my Joffrey Chronicles >> and saying look Hassan what Hassan has said Ashabu has said before >> about other communities >> he has talked about how when he's talking about the talked about when he's talking about the L now Hassan has talked about it about when he's talking about Mon Kenya all of them are wrong.

[00:16:58]Let's not get upset just when it's attacked to us.

[00:17:01]>> And I think that's that's I think the most critical point where we must come in because it has cuz I remember even there's a conversation that was held a while back when the Roni road was being constructed and it was changed from being a development issue to being when this road is going to a specific region then people from Mount Kenya have a problem with it. But when Tikaroo was being constructed, you never had a problem because we must call bad manners in politics what it is and stop sugar coating sugar coating it and saying you are attacking a community. It is purely bad manners and the agencies that ought to work should >> just work and do their job and that's why Hassan is becoming complicated to go after because >> we should have started this process the first time the first person attacked the community. Yes.

[00:17:54]>> So Hassan will argue >> but so and so has been doing it and attacking L and other so why are you guys coming after me and then now and that's why I'm saying that's what now makes it complicated cuz now it becomes that Iron Road conversation.

[00:18:08]>> Yeah.

[00:18:09]>> When thicker road was made you guys didn't make it a Mount Kenya issue. Why is road becoming a West Kenya issue?

[00:18:19]You know and and that's why we need to capture these things right from the start.

[00:18:24]>> Yeah.

[00:18:24]>> We have to nationalize our conversation and as you said called bad manners bad manners. The minute I create a perception that a certain community is being isolated when we say we are all I'm going to visit my cousins you know and make it a political conversation.

[00:18:41]>> What have you said? So if you're not ka you're not part of the family if you're not >> you're not if you're not a banu >> oh I mean he could have said it anywhere >> but you see so what you've done you've created a ban to nord >> again what you say doesn't determine how I interpreted yes >> you can argue and that's and he argued it he said you know I meant we are related but we are all part of a bigger family but you know are closer to us >> but you see the person the other person who is not cumber saying but even me I associate with your political ideology are you telling me I can't be part of you cuz I am not your cousin.

[00:19:15]>> Yeah.

[00:19:16]>> And that's how we need to stop personalizing our politics. So once your politics is issue issue based then it doesn't matter that I come from Amalu and your Kikuyu. If we have an issue we agree on then our ethnic background does not count >> because what the issue if if we don't agree on corruption then we don't agree on corruption whether it is a Kikuyu or a Lu or Ken doing it we should all be able to say corruption is bad. We can't say that you know those guys are corrupt naturally corrupt. We can't say that.

[00:19:45]>> Gujir you know when you talk about tribalism we know where >> that has landed this country. We everybody in this country I was I was old enough to know >> we've been there >> and it is also then um associated more with the political class who've been pushing that agenda that today we see the same being repeated. One asks the question is tribolism or e negative ethnicity um a campaign material for the political class.

[00:20:19]>> It's an easy mobilization tool. For example, because it's emotive.

[00:20:22]>> We no actually not just emotive, it's just easy.

[00:20:25]>> Okay, >> we seated here. I don't know what tribe you are from. It's it's for real.

[00:20:29]>> I've never thought about asking >> what community you come from so that we can have this conversation. you know when we come to have a conversation we talk about now we're talking about I'm not I'm not interpreting what you're saying on the lens of where you come from I'm just dealing with what you're saying as it is >> now what has happened in this country because we've been unable to hold politicians to account for what they say they pick what they think is the easiest tool so if you're running for office in Mon Kenya region and majority of the people in in Mona region are kikuyu then you make it a kikuyu conversation M >> you forget that Kimu >> 30% of the people in Kimu are not >> yes are not from are not Kikuyu >> but when you go to Kimu you speak like everybody in Kamu is Kikuyo >> then you go to Nakuru and and that's now what's complicating our politics when you say when you hear when you hear politician saying what Rift Valley the politician is speaking about a community but now because you're trying to be careful full. You don't want to say >> you're saying what >> but everybody inval Kenya is not Kikuyu. When you say >> you're speaking about the local traditional communities of but you go and find 40% of of cost is gamba you go and find another percentage is Kikuyu.

[00:21:56]So we we the the voter and I keep throwing this thing at voters. I I remember I went to a funeral recently.

[00:22:04]You know when politicians are given a microphone now these days the priests >> first say and you remember where you are.

[00:22:11]>> Y you are warned before you speak and and and I and I challenged the congregation and they said you know you are the ones who vote for politicians.

[00:22:18]Why not vote for politicians who who won't make you feel uncomfortable when you give them the mic? Because you know you actually have that choice >> cuz everybody else who speaks I don't know whether you've been in a funeral or social setting a lot of people speak in those settings. Nobody's warned until you get to the politician now microphone.

[00:22:40]So I was asking why don't you as local voters ensure that the person you vote for doesn't give you cringeworthyness when he's about to give a microphone and addressing you and they're addressing you and you're the one who voted for them. So that's the same thing I want to say about now the whole idea of tribalism.

[00:22:57]>> It is up to us to decide that cuz politicians flow with what is what the public wants.

[00:23:04]>> So if they're going along with tribalism it means we have allowed them >> to do it. We keep and I've said this on this platform many times. We want to point fingers at politicians a lot of the times. I mean there they are. They they're praying. They're doing national prayers today. We want to point fingers at politicians a lot of the times without remembering that politicians are actually represent representatives of us.

[00:23:25]>> Yeah.

[00:23:26]>> Nobody in parliament today went in through a back door. No.

[00:23:29]>> He was voted by a group of people.

[00:23:31]Change the game and then you'll change the politicians.

[00:23:35]>> Decide tribalism doesn't work. You'll change the politicians. But they are I mean when I say we are cousins and we all get excited it becomes a trend then it means we love that particular kind of conversation.

[00:23:49]>> It's a few people who play this card though >> and folks have realized that okay if I play this card then I can use it. You even accuse people who've not even gotten in the game of playing the card because you know that it's going to rile people up as do emotional things. We cannot run away from the fact that the people who play this game are not Martians. They're human beings.

[00:24:09]>> So we also know that if you attack somebody's person who their makeup >> that they are going to react to it.

[00:24:17]>> So it is something that has been learned by politicians the world over by the way and we use this >> but the truth of the matter is that they are in the minority >> but that the effect is major.

[00:24:31]So, is it something that can be ignored and say, "Okay, well, we know what you're doing and we can see you from very far. So, what we're going to do is ignore you and we're not going to allow that to take root." Can you do that with something that we have already established gets to the core of somebody's being in terms of how they feel? It can't be ignored. Okay, it can't be ignored. It can be acted against. It by that will be a very deliberate action and it has to be a core it has to start from a core group of people >> who expand it and it will not start from the politicians because this benefits politicians >> it has to start from within the other people who get affected by it.

[00:25:08]>> Yeah.

[00:25:09]>> Because you see when a politician runs a tribal narrative >> you are mobilizing for politics but you affecting business community you are affecting the church. So what we need is the other players who don't benefit cuz the business community doesn't benefit from ethnic mobilization because you don't sell your things to just particular tribes.

[00:25:30]>> The church doesn't benefit from ethnic mobilization unless you're running a particular church which operates in a small circle. So there are people the the the the sectors that get adversely affected by ethnic mobilization need to step up and stop thinking that it is a face because what have I realized in this country like now we're getting into political season >> everybody has started now accepting this bad manners is now is we call it silly season is here with us so people will talk badly for a year and then we'll take another year to recover and then we have 3 years to do business and then we start all over again what we need to do is force. See in the in the first world and in the established democracies even they try to mobilize ethnically or racially for example in you go to America and you'll hear the black vote and you'll hear and they'll be looking for the west vote and they'll be looking for the Latino vote but then they've converted that into uh I don't know whether you can call it a positive >> mobilization tool. So the blacks are coming together to push for things that are specific to them, not to push against whites.

[00:26:38]>> So when you go to talk to them, they expect you to talk about how you're going to lift things that are common to them. Here you mobilize ethnically against you're not telling Kenya, I'm going to do this for you. You're telling me Kenya we are going to stay away from them. So our politics is not even our ethnic our mobilization is not even positive. It is negative in that it's drawing us further and further away from other people. When you're campaigning to the black community, for example, in the states, you tend to tell them how you're going to integrate them into the system, how you're going to make sure they benefit from government, how you're going to do this.

[00:27:11]>> Here, you're pushing that conversation by saying when we get power, it will be about us. We will remove those other people.

[00:27:19]>> So, the question you ask, can we ignore this? We can't ignore it.

[00:27:23]>> We need to deliberately speak to it. But we also are a generation that can speak to it. Unlike our parents who might have gone to school only with with people like them, we have we are exposed enough to know that we are not just hanging out with people like us. You'll find that you're circle of friends.

[00:27:39]>> If that's the case, one then why don't we see people playing this card every day of the year throughout the year. If it was that serious, why do we only see it then when it's political silly season?

[00:27:53]The rest of us have decided politics is for a particular group of people and we bear with them.

[00:27:59]>> Okay.

[00:28:00]>> So we allow them to do their thing. They get into office and then the rest of us go on with our lives. And that is the most the saddest part about how our community operates. We imagine that the politicians have are playing in their own small field, playing their own small game without realizing that that small game they're playing is affecting the rest of us. And 2007 should have taught us.

[00:28:23]Actually, I became a politician after 2007. Before that, I had never thought I would do politics cuz I realized that >> as we watch these guys play their game, they can actually stop the rest of us from going on with our lives. They can literally grind the country to a halt just by their bad manners.

[00:28:42]On a normal day, Kenyans really don't care who you are. We do business with each other. You're traveling from one point to the other. Do you know who's the owner of that vehicle? Kenyans really don't care.

[00:28:54]>> The pilot, the pilot is from what tribe when you get >> you don't really care. You don't even care about the kj coming to your business. All you know is I need to pay this guy else my business is closed. But here we find ourselves then in these spaces where the political class will come and spew these narratives. Yet those who are seated there will clap and smile with them and let him continue.

[00:29:21]Let them rather continue with their silliness on that space that platform that they have been given. That would also be in places of worship. This has happened.

[00:29:31]What then must individuals surrounding that person at that time do to stop it there? And then for example, Hassan, if the president who spoke last and the deputy president who spoke second last called him out on the addresses that he made, that would have been a gamecher but we don't see that happen.

[00:29:53]>> They'll probably argue that they didn't want to make it a big thing. They didn't want to highlight and focus on it. And then now people have focused on it. So now everybody is working backwards. I've been in political settings and somebody will say something really nasty and you're sitting there and you're like, "Okay, do I want to move from my prepared speech >> to deal with that person or am I just going to hope that >> it doesn't blow up and then just hold my fingers, cross my fingers and hope that it's going to end here."

[00:30:22]>> And then a lot of the times it ends there. But then every now and again you have a hassle >> that doesn't end there. And then you now have to start dealing with the issue of you were seated there, you didn't do anything about it. Does it mean you support it? And you have to start also backpedaling.

[00:30:37]And the problem about it is again that issue of we are not very good at correcting people.

[00:30:43]>> And very few politicians will correct another politician. Even if he be misbehaves in front of you, you're like, you know what, he'll be sorted. So a lot of policians were in that function saying, you see, I knew Han was going to get in trouble and they most probably spoke after him.

[00:30:58]But they're like, you know what? Let me not be the one who lights the fire. The president was sitting right there. The president sat next to him.

[00:31:06]I don't want to be the one who triggers the backlash.

[00:31:08]>> Backlash. Let me see whether it is actually going to be a backlash or hope it might not be.

[00:31:13]>> So politicians allow yourselves to trip each other up and just allow yourselves to continue >> because again very few politicians hold brief for any other politician. you doing your thing and you don't want to be the one who spoiled for the other person >> speaks about the morality of the political class and what exactly they think about Kenyans no actually but but who is a political class the political class is us >> and that's what I keep challenging people that the political class comes from within us >> and if they're behaving in a way we don't like then we have the capacity to change that by changing the game but we have allowed them to do this if we if we make it an attractive to mobilize ethnically they will stop doing it but for as long as we are clapping for them as long as we are green because even in that meeting not everybody seated there but I'm sure there were land owners seated there >> who people who actually own land in the coast large tax of land and who are not from there and they were seated there >> and they must have felt hey is not good but they didn't >> do anything >> want to be the ones who counter that conversation when I see a changing phase when it comes to how one would say the young people are looking at it and I go back to the finance bill 2025 when I remember tribalism tried to creep in and everybody stood up and said we are allas you know we are all that is to just say that >> we are Kenyans and we reason as Kenyans tribalism we recognize where we come from that does that does not form our decisions and who we are as a people. Do you think that is changing things?

[00:32:55]>> I I want to believe very strongly that our children who are now genz that that person is bad cuz they come from a different tribe.

[00:33:09]>> Oh, they're going to give you a hard time. No, no, no. They can't be bad because of their tribe. There must be something else. And then as I said a lot of them have gone to school with people from different communities and they and different different religions. So unlike the past when your parents would tell you don't hang out with people from this community.

[00:33:28]>> You can't do that with the children anymore. And and and I want to believe that we would be the last generation that is misbehaving like this. Them they come up with their own ways of misbehaving that is not going to be based on natural >> cleavages that we can't do anything about. we have picked and and gave it to Moy uh President Moy when he was being pushed for multi-arty democracy and he said you know you guys don't get it the minute we introduce multi-party democracy the first thing that is going to happen is that the tribes that the the parties that will come up will first be tribal because it is the easiest way to mobilize socially.

[00:34:08]>> You start saying now as a tribe we have become a political outfit.

[00:34:12]>> Yeah. to go and and and that was that was one of his arguments against multiarty democracy. Of course, multiarty democracy is much better than single party democracy. But I think we failed to appreciate the challenge that was ahead of us. We fought for multiarty democracy so much we forgot to prepare for what it would mean that multiart we we've created laws that say you can't create a party that is based on a certain tribe. But for heaven's sake, we create a party, divide it, give out random positions to people so that you show that you have access of Kenya. But we all know >> but isn't that the best place to start and this is the thing that we know that people coales around things that make sense to them and there is nothing absolutely nothing wrong with identifying as to where you come from. The problem is when you use it against someone else to think that they should not have um a role to play here >> and you should >> or that you hate based on the fact that they're not from where you're from.

[00:35:20]That's where we start to blur the cross the line.

[00:35:24]>> There's absolutely nothing wrong with identifying about who you are and where you're from. The problem is now staking that against somebody else. And so when we get to this place whereby people are almost afraid to say who they are or where they're from and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when we turn it into a conflict that can be avoided whereby we say that in spite or despite where you're from that we can work together. We can be one. We can be unified. So we take that little thing and we bastardize it and we turn it into something that people can use as a war tool. And that's the problem because those things are done intentionally >> because not everybody can be the same but in the difference there can be unity but people take that one thing that makes you different and use it as a tool and focus on it which is the problem.

[00:36:14]And I think it's evil actually do the the problem could even be much more fundamental than that. We all understand what it means to be the tribe we come from but we don't have a bigger identity that we aspire to beyond and and I've always used the example of Americans and I don't know about whether that's how Americans believe but when you're outside you feel the American identity is so strong that even if you are Latino you want to be a Latino who who aspires to that particular identity cuz it has benefits it has protection There is no bigger example of how different people came together unified than the United States because every single body that's why when Trump comes and talks about make who are they immigrants allig but it is in the difference that they realize that there can be unity like you say investment in nationhood the thing about us we are very big in nation building we are doing structures we're doing things we don't have and and and I pray we are going to get there as a country. We do not have a focused effort in nationhood today. If you ask somebody what does it mean to be a Kenyan, they have no clue, right? Until you get out of the country and you see another Kenyan in the airport, they're like going to >> but you see it only becomes when you had to outside >> outside. Yeah.

[00:37:40]>> We don't have I wish we would get a ministry and who just innovates. There's a time we tried to do a Kenyan outfit and then that thing just died.

[00:37:49]>> Yeah.

[00:37:50]>> But you see that's it. We have a Kikuy way of dressing. We have a way of talking. We have we have the L way of dressing. A way of talking. What is a Kenyan way of dressing? What is a Kenyan way of speaking? Nigeria has a Nigerian way of beh and and you'll find that as much as they have their own differences, there's a thing they say that makes them Nigerian. We haven't invested enough in a Kenyaness.

[00:38:15]Look at Rwanda. Kagami has spent so much time trying to make Rwanda an identity that why? cuz they know where they're coming from.

[00:38:24]>> Yeah.

[00:38:24]>> And you need to have an identity that is bigger than the one that you were born with.

[00:38:29]>> So that as even as you wear the one you were born with, you can aspire to the created one.

[00:38:35]>> Kenyans, we need if we going to kill this negative ethnicity, we only going to kill it by replacing >> how I feel about being Kikuyu by something else that makes me feel even better. We can I can comfortably be Kikuyu. We can be that quote of many colors. I can comfortably be red or yellow in a coat that has many other colors without running over any of them.

[00:38:58]Why? Cuz the quote is the most important thing. It is not my red color or my red cection.

[00:39:03]>> It is that when we are a court like this, we are powerful. We are strong. We are we are many good things and in that way I will be very happy to be part of the part of the whole. Today there's no advantage in being part of the whole. In fact, you feel as if you are safer and more politically powerful by being a small part.

[00:39:26]If we could make a situation where when we come together, you know those I don't know those cartoons you used to watch and then >> robots unite you know robots come from everywhere >> and then they all become this big one big robot. Now, if we created a part where I can plug in as a kikuyo, you can plug in as a lu, you can plug in as a luy, you can plug in as a kin, and then the outfit that we create is powerful and serves us, makes me feel safer, makes me feel more economically um capable, makes my make, you know, makes my environment better, then we are going to be interested in a Kenyaness.

[00:40:02]But for now, the the identity that serves you is your natural tribal one. M >> it's what makes it's where you draw back on is where you when you feel unsafe that's where you run we don't have that identity that is Kenyan that makes you that you run to out of the one you were born with that's what if we can invest in nationhood building and and and I've always felt that our politicians lose that point by taking the easy way out it's harder to be a nationhood builder just do you can do roads and things but to create a culture that the Americans have created where you know All of us are different. So the only way we're going to survive is by creating something that is new that all of us >> identify and watch the Americans.

[00:40:44]There's a lot of investment in Hollywood in the American identity. That's how one American guy will kill a bunch of people from other communities cuz you want to say so when you're watching that you're like oh that is an American. Oh it's good to be an American. Now and that comes up with arts. It comes up with the study the what you're studying in school. We don't have a Kenyan history.

[00:41:07]We have au history. We have a history.

[00:41:10]What is our Kenyan history? What what is or are we not old enough >> to have a history? No. Maybe also we are too new in as a state.

[00:41:17]>> Not necessarily.

[00:41:18]>> You get but but that's where we are coming from cuz actually when you say that Ronda is building their own identity and then we we we there are people who are doing it and they're doing it because they're scared of what not doing it means. Us guys are not scared enough. Mhm.

[00:41:33]>> We have 2007 as a scare crew somewhere in the but I don't think it's like it didn't scare us enough cuz if it had scared us enough we would not be going back there again. We passed a new constitution >> that tries to make tribal politics hard and yes it does make it hard but we have discipline in our game >> in this political silly season. Um, if you were to just speak up in terms of being patriotic, being a Kenyan, what would be your message to both to us all, to us as Kenyans, not political class, not to just Kenyans? Let wrong be wrong >> and let right be right.

[00:42:10]>> Let it not be influenced by where the person who is doing the wrong or right comes from. If somebody is being corrupt, let's not the syndrome get finished. If somebody is doing the wrong thing, somebody has said the wrong thing. And and and I have tried to practice that by you start by dealing with the problems in where you come from because when somebody else does it, then becomes an argument. You are attacking our person.

[00:42:39]>> Deal with your problems from where you are. So if you there are people in your community who are misbehaving, deal with those ones before other people start dealing with themdeed. Clean from inside out and we'll be fine.

[00:42:50]>> There you go.

[00:42:52]Wo, thank you for for joining us this morning. Um, that we must talk about them whether it's uncomfortable and if it brings out other things then so be it. Asantana, thank you for being here.

[00:43:01]Looking forward to the next good morning.

[00:43:03]>> This is the situation room. The only way to start your