Maurice Glasman: Reform could write Labour’s obituary in Makerfield | Quite right!

Ajouté : 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]This is a test of the extent to which affection for Labor still lives in the hearts of working-class people. If the voters of Makerfield vote for reform, >> that is like the obituary notice for the Labor movement and for the Labor Party.

[00:00:18]>> Which of those who are thought to be in contention do you think would be best for Labor and best for the country?

[00:00:25]Okay. So, what an and I'm sorry for using that language on your podcast.

[00:00:32]>> Thanks for coming back to this second episode where we've been interviewing Morris Glossman, the Labour peer, historian, and thinker. We'll be looking at the makerfield bi-election. Is it the Bosworth, the master of contemporary politics, the battle that will define the future of the country? And if so, what does it tell us about Labor, about reform, and indeed about the future of the Conservatives?

[00:00:59]What's your assessment of reform overall? To what extent should we welcome their growth? To what extent should we be wary? And are you tempted ever at the thought of voting for them?

[00:01:15]>> Thankfully, Michael, I share your situation where I can't vote. So I I we're both peers of the realm and >> barred from >> and that is a mercy, right? It's a hard life.

[00:01:27]>> I mean that's a real mercy.

[00:01:28]>> I mean there were there have been many times over these >> So I'm very Meline I'm I'm really conservative. I I value and treasure uh Burke and the Conservative tradition. My problem with the Conservative party was always that they were much too modernist and revolution.

[00:01:47]>> Conservatives are >> you know and and didn't value the working class and their traditions which were really decimated >> and obviously I'm looking with it's for me a cause of grief. I love the two party system. I thought it it brought stability and genuine possibilities of action.

[00:02:07]>> Yes.

[00:02:07]>> So what do what you're asking me? what I think um look there's Danny is there >> Danny Krueger >> who I think is a proper conservative person so it's not just a bunch of essics chances that >> but I don't really see any significant articulation of a vision it's um >> so far but what you say is true it's it's absolutely for sure that both Conservative and Labor have not fulfilled their historic obligations to their people and those people are now putting their hopes on reform. It's a remarkable thing about England that it stays constitutional. It stays democratic. It's it's it the vote still matters because in France it's swinging towards Le Pen. In Germany it's swinging to the AFD. it's happening all all over and we will find our own particular English and British way of dealing with this. So I think looked at in that level and the inability of this government to respond to the concerns of of workingclass people that there needs to be a disruption of the existing system.

[00:03:33]Do you see any historical parallels with uh reforms rise and do you see any figures from history who uh remind you of Farage? I'm not trying to to denigrate him. I'm not trying to sort of suggest that one should compare home with disreputable figures in the past.

[00:03:49]I'm just curious uh as to know uh if if you think he bears any resemblance to to Joe Chamberlain or to anyone in our political past that helps us to understand him.

[00:04:00]>> Yeah. Uh, I think you've got to give Joe Chamberlain some credit as being a more profound thinker. I I do think >> that he came out of municipal Birmingham and had >> Joe Chamberlain's more like Andy Burnham would like to be in that in that way. So the two figures that emerge certainly in 20th century history would be Oswald Mosley or Eno Pal you know >> serious figures who saw the psy of the existing party systems and tried to make their move.

[00:04:33]>> I would say that Nigel Farage looks to those two figures actually. I I would say that he would soften down now his admiration for Mosley >> and he would probably raise up his admiration for Pal, >> you know, but what he would notice is that is that neither really succeeded in building their own party base. Now, this is where he's got to be given huge credit >> is that he has built up a party with a mass membership.

[00:05:03]>> Yes. um that is organizing locally that that has very strict rules about racism.

[00:05:10]By the way, I've witnessed Nigel Farage sitting there going no out, no out and this is all sort of XNF, you know. Uh so in many ways he's a very curious figure is that what obviously my party can't see is that he acts like a break on the AFD >> direction or the Le Pen direction. He's trying to build a broadly speaking patriotic and it would be a conservative party except for he is playing around with a different kind of political economy but he can't seem to settle no uh um there. So my view of him as a you know saloon bar that is I still think his instinctive position.

[00:05:57]>> Obviously we have the battle royal between uh arguably our modern Joe Chamberlain Andy Bernham and our modern not pal uh Nigel Farage in Makerfield.

[00:06:11]>> Yeah.

[00:06:11]>> How significant is this bi-election?

[00:06:14]What does it tell us about the direction of Britain?

[00:06:18]>> Yeah. So I would say that I'm not a um I don't believe that all the time say the most important bi-election in modern political history. We've seen so many of them and they disappear after week. But this really is I would put my money on the table on that >> is that this is a test of the extent to which affection for labor still lives in the hearts of workingclass people >> in the small towns of the Northwest. Now the small towns, these areas around Manchester, you know, Berry, Preston, Bolton, as well as Wigan, >> these are absolutely fundamental relational nodes of the labor movement.

[00:06:56]They're absolutely crucial in some ways.

[00:06:59]>> Graeme Stringer is some notion of how that used to be. Oh, that's not right, you know, and all of that.

[00:07:06]>> Totally.

[00:07:06]>> Now, it looks like what we saw in Sunderland in the local elections, Michael, is really something extraordinary. I mean, this is an iconic labor council in that it it set up maternity units and free medical care for mothers before the NHS through contribution. By the way, it >> Yeah, >> it was labor for 100 years.

[00:07:28]>> 55 reform, five labor. I mean, that I've just given you an idea of that. And I thought, okay, >> it's crazy that this feels in any way normal or, you know, like factored in.

[00:07:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. But it it it you know I was told three days before that it was on a knife. Right. I mean don't believe anybody who said they saw that >> not that.

[00:07:49]>> Yeah.

[00:07:50]>> So we got to say that the coastal northeast labor is in absolute >> peril of uh not mattering. But the northwest is a different matter. Um it always had a very very strong labor affection.

[00:08:07]>> Yes. and Andy Burnham is sort of tailorade for that kind of sentimental affection, >> trams, buses, you know. Yeah.

[00:08:16]>> So if the voters of Makerfield, which is really Wigan, vote for reform, >> that is um like the obituary notice for the Labor movement and for the Labor Party >> in its very heartlands.

[00:08:35]So I do think this this bi-election is crucial and just to let you know I'm so moved by I'm taking my whole family up to Wigan to campaign. I actually think this is really important >> for Andy.

[00:08:47]>> For Andy. Yeah. Although I don't support it's just about the history of the >> It's for Labor. It's for campaign for Labor.

[00:08:55]>> What you believe in may one day return.

[00:08:57]>> Yeah. I believe in the resurrection of the dead. Yeah. I do quite right. Um >> it will come back to this. There will be a Labor interest party and there will be a a business interest party and they will be mediated by shared conservatism because that's what England is.

[00:09:12]>> Things are very very cyclical. You're right. But Bernham himself is a pretty mercurial figure who's adopted different political guises throughout his career and recently he did a I think very opportunistic U-turn on the issue of Brexit having just eight months ago said that he wanted to rejoin. Do you think that what he's doing now, his some would call it lapping or cosplaying or whatever, will be enough to convince people in that part of the world who've been let down before?

[00:09:35]>> Well, this is the issue. He he has established according to his people um some credibility in the Greater Manchester area. So, what he's saying is is that I support democracy. I respect the result of the referendum. That's some way consistent with him. I mean, he could say I'm a remainer.

[00:09:54]>> Yeah. But I believe more in democracy.

[00:09:57]So I can whether he can articulate a you know which is the issue Michael for for both you and me. Have we been able to articulate the positive possibilities of Brexit of sovereignty? Yes. Of the national renewal of our country of the restoration of right order.

[00:10:15]>> I would say that we're also responsible for not fully articulating uh that vision. So everything changed after the referendum, but nothing changed for the political class. It was still the delivery economy. It was still the importing of cheap labor to deliver the food for a nation that's forgotten how to cook. You know, all of this we we never we never have dealt with >> the the real great possibilities that open up from being a sovereign nation state. We haven't built our foreign policy around Ukraine and non-EU countries. is obviously our relationship with the United States is in really difficulty but also I give you as an example at the moment there is a multi-million people movement in Iran to restore a monarchy have a parliament absolutely based on our system >> parliament monarchy tradition national renewal freedom democracy where are we >> haven't said a really a word of and They're executed. They killed 45,000 people in two days. I haven't got over this. And we what do we say?

[00:11:23]>> Nothing. And so, you know, this this is the point, Michael, that is that since Brexit, there hasn't been a fulfillment of that vote.

[00:11:35]>> Who do you think amongst the potential Labor leaders understands that? Well, there's there's certainly one that does, and that's an extraordinary thing that only England could produce.

[00:11:49]>> A religious Pakistani woman from Birmingham >> who is a genuine patriot and understands the rage.

[00:11:59]>> Okay. So, Shabbana Mammud is clearly to me so obvious that she's head and shoulders above all the others, not just in her political understanding, but in her diligence, in her work. I mean, Look, when she left justice and David Lambie went in, suddenly you there was this scandal when she trial by jury. What I'm saying is that didn't happen because she gets up at 6:00 in the morning and she can't work and she >> and my understanding is that she doesn't want the top job. But is is that not the case? Yeah, I I think it's more that she understands that the position that she holds is so deeply unpopular among Labour Party members that it would undermine her if she but let's have a look below the surface then you mentioned him.

[00:12:44]>> Jonathan Hinder is emerging as a really serious national political figure of the Bevonite mold. ex copper doesn't talk in abstract nouns gets to the point you could see that he had to make decisions as a policeman that were just normal normal normal normal >> and he hasn't been bullied out of it >> okay so then there's Dan Carden in he's gone on his own journey in Liverpool there's Graham String what I'm saying is there are labor figures below that surface obviously Shabbana is the most important >> but this >> but to a man isn't it interesting that either they haven't been given anything or their career is currently in peril because of their party.

[00:13:24]>> Well, I I will I don't think I don't think Shabban is in peril.

[00:13:28]>> No, but I mean if we have a change of leadership um the reforms that she's doing to migration which are very popular in the country of as you said very deeply unpopular within the party and there will be calls for her to be moved or or fired.

[00:13:40]>> Yeah, there there may be calls. I I look unbelievably Karma appointed her. I mean that is a very interesting and significant thing and I can't see >> in a what they used to call a month of Sundays that anybody would replace her.

[00:13:55]>> No, >> no, but that's not the issue. The issue is is that why isn't Shabbana a leading >> figure? Now things may change. I'm just saying don't be closed on this possibility. Let's say Andy Bernham loses the uh Makerfield/Wigan by election.

[00:14:12]>> Yes. Um what that means is that is that he lost to reform and that that can change the political calculations of who's the appropriate person to then move in. So this this thing is not over.

[00:14:26]>> There's a fight going on really about whether Labor is going to try and take back the people who who've shifted to reform or whether it's going to focus on trying to recover some of the people that might be shifting left to the Green Party. And it seems to me that at present the the kind of green curious side seems to be winning.

[00:14:44]>> Well, this this cannot be in a real political framework. So, let's go back to the local elections.

[00:14:51]My eyes saw that reform won500 seats >> and my eyes see that the Greens gained 400.

[00:15:02]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:02]>> Right. My eyes see that we form one council after council.

[00:15:07]>> Totally. and and so this accuses them of behaving rationally progress. No, it's not about rationality. It's about the ideology of progressivism. Labour either recognizes that it is a part of our country or it goes on some acidbased adventure into progressive world where it just disintegrate. The thing is, I hate to use the word because it it's this new word existential, but um the Conservative Party are facing totally >> as a national party the reality of this.

[00:15:38]>> Now, the Labour Party was built on interests and relationships. It wasn't really a party in that sense of abstract universal values.

[00:15:46]>> It was about a decent home, decent job, security in the country, uh all those things. It's so the moment is coming.

[00:15:56]That moment of decision is coming. And if Andy Burnham loses to reform, another plumber is standing by the way, but this one's a real plumber, not a heat pump advisor.

[00:16:07]>> Um, then Labor is a movement and we'll have to confront the reality of that.

[00:16:15]And and what I'm saying is that possibility lies ahead quite soon.

[00:16:18]>> Yeah. Uh it's interesting that you mention as Maddie pointed out a number of people obviously his home secretary people like Jonathan Hinder, Graeme Stringer. I suppose one could also mention other people like David Smith and uh Jonathan Braz >> and I'll yes they form a a group within the Labor Party that are certainly uh interesting and have a a a defined and clear point of view. But in this current leadership election, they don't have a candidate as such because it's assumed that the battle is between Andy Bernham, Westing, possibly Ed Miband, possibly Angela Raina, and of course Karma is the incumbent trying to cling on. Um obviously uh none of the people whom I've mentioned quite fit the bill but at this stage which of those who are thought to be in contention do you think would be best for Labor and best for the country?

[00:17:23]>> Okay. So I'm reserving judgment on that until after the bi-election.

[00:17:28]>> Yeah. Uh, I genuinely am because it's obvious that >> that none of us can support a remain liberal progressive candidate and all the people you mentioned are fitting into that.

[00:17:41]>> Yes.

[00:17:41]>> Um, just to say Blue Labor has never supported anybody in a leadership election. It's we're not like that. We just endure. Um and we recognize the scale to which the party's been colonized by uh social science undergraduates and humanities undergraduates. I mean we we are in danger of you know I always say I think I've said it before on this it's not a new thought. It's the last thing you want to hear when you go to the doctor.

[00:18:07]It's progressive. It actually kills you Michael. You've seen it. It absolutely >> it kills your capacity to think. It kills your capacity to judge. and it kills your capacity to act. It's like a py and this is where this government is.

[00:18:22]It's absolutely riddled with progressive pausy. It's on death now >> is is is with us.

[00:18:31]>> But we believe being Aristotilian that it is natural for human beings to cling to life. that in politics there is an urge to live >> quite >> um and that if Andy Bernham loses this bi-election that's an enormous seismic shock even to the progressives >> yes >> who will go whoa whoa we thought he was loved >> he brought back the trams more are you supposed to do >> and then I think the dynamics of this contest change is what I'm saying then Shabana doesn't Not quite. So >> what I'm saying Labour Party members voted for Karma.

[00:19:13]Remember who he succeeded? Jeremy Corbyn. Yep.

[00:19:17]>> Right.

[00:19:18]>> And he won overwhelmingly against what was her name Rebecca Long B. I mean >> what I'm saying is that aspect of the party was not only defeated, it was expelled. I mean he's got to be given huge credit for that kissa >> for that action in those first three years of opposition >> and they were out they were absolutely >> out and uh what's happened is that the Green Party had emerged as the Corbyn coalition >> Islamist extreme progressive right >> just to indulge me for a second always >> can you be kinder towards the greens because um you have Zack Palansky from a hard scrabble Northwest background, Hannah Spencer from a genuine working-class background. You have a party that is actually prepared to talk about the dignity of work to attack billionaires and international capital.

[00:20:12]Um which is concerned about rebuilding community uh relations which have been torn apart by impersonal forces. Isn't there within the Green Party a kernel of a genuinely impressive movement of solidarity?

[00:20:28]>> Well, no. I mean, absolutely. They've got no political economy. They're the first movement that describes itself as left that has no trace of socialist thought in it.

[00:20:40]>> Yeah.

[00:20:41]>> Um they barely talk. They just want a tax.

[00:20:44]>> They love open borders as well.

[00:20:46]>> Okay. But above all, >> yeah, >> Islamist murder is alive in that party.

[00:20:51]They No, I thought you were going to say I should be grateful to the Greens for attracting all those people out the Labor Party and I am because I really don't have to meet them anymore or talk to them. But they are >> It's acted like a pus.

[00:21:03]>> Yeah. But they are absolutely uh my enemies at every level. We need solidarity, not diversity. We need industrial strategy, not taxation. We need the armed forces to be strong. They are genuinely a malign and malicious and look what happened. They're stabbing Jews in Gold's Green and he worries about the police kicking them in the head.

[00:21:22]>> What an And I'm sorry for using that language on your podcast. No, no. I mean, I really that's that is wicked and evil to me. And and there's nothing in there. They say, "Oh, unity, unity."

[00:21:37]>> No, you've got to confront Islamism head on. and it's the biggest threat to our democracy, to our liberty, and our national interests.

[00:21:44]>> You've got a coalition. There are people within their ranks, and they haven't expelled them who do hold those kind of Islamist beliefs. But there's also this kind of dangerous moral relativism that is very familiar to people that went to university in the last 20 or 30 years. I remember Hannah Spencer being interviewed and saying that the Manchester Arena bombing was caused by the division of the right and this kind of thing. Like, it's just like if anything could be just the same as anything else. But the trouble is that for the left especially will have a hard time confronting this because for example in the same way that so many of our institutions have been captured and now led by people that hate them that the Labor Party has been captured too and I think we cannot have the kind of communitarian world that I know you would like without strong institutions.

[00:22:26]>> I have to go and give a talk on Brexit.

[00:22:27]So I apologize for that.

[00:22:29]>> But thank God for our working class.

[00:22:32]>> Yes, >> I believe in them as our redemption.

[00:22:35]They did it in the Brexit referendum.

[00:22:37]Michael, you remember clearly it would have been the William Haye coalition, some grumpy people in the sh and suburbs with the progressives and the city and the universities.

[00:22:48]>> No, the working class without any organization.

[00:22:51]>> Do you remember from Sunderland down to Portsman said no?

[00:22:54]>> Yep.

[00:22:55]>> And it was exactly the same in the Second World War when the war came, they just packed their bags and joined up.

[00:23:02]There was no >> dissent on that. this colonization, you know, has limits that are confined by the university. So, this has got to be a radical change. You know, we've we've got to close half the universities, turn them into vocational colleges and need to be purges in the university because they're peddling and lies >> as facts. You know, these are huge issues that none of our part neither of our parties have confronted. That has to be >> No, because I think that many conservatives saw it as a good business opportunity. Well, that's the point.

[00:23:34]>> And a way to curry favor with in constituencies that weren't historically there.

[00:23:37]>> Cheap labor, modernization. Cameon was a tribute act to Blair. There's no doubt about this.

[00:23:42]>> Totally.

[00:23:43]>> And um and these are different times.

[00:23:47]>> You talked earlier about uh the Labour Party being more Catholic >> than Methodist.

[00:23:53]>> And you've also talked about the dangers of Islamism um uh in this country. to what extent should we do God in our politics?

[00:24:06]>> Okay. So, I think that we should absolutely do Christianity. You know, I think our what I call the English church, I don't call it the Church of England anymore because that's almost indistinguishable from the Labor Party and various NOS's.

[00:24:22]It really is a tragedy for our country.

[00:24:25]But we have to recognize that the distinctive temper of Christianity in our country did lead to a genuinely peaceful and tolerant society. So I'm a Jew and I'm forever grateful that we were given refuge in the loving arms of Jesus. You know, not one Jew died in the Second World War in this country for being a Jew. Think about that as a national achievement. I mean, it's incredible. While we were being tor gassed and murdered and executed all over continental Europe, my mom said that every week they went to synagogue, came home, there was no none of that on the none of that on the streets. So I think what we've got to be looking at I believe this is near of restoration. I think I do look to the Catholic Church as more up to the challenge of not surrendering to progressive orthodoxy. I think the Church of England, look at the statistic. This was from Michael and I's time in in the Brexit referendum. Uh 78% of church goers on Sunday voted Brexit.

[00:25:24]6% of the clergy. You got to look at this >> division.

[00:25:28]>> Yet another institution >> just another colonized by progressive.

[00:25:32]>> I couldn't agree more. But surely surely the solution is to try to reclaim it rather than just to give up on it >> completely. So what what I took great heart in was uh King Charles praying with the pope. I think that there's a time for >> So, look, I'm a I'm a God believer. I think that it's God of righteousness and justice and compassion and mercy. But we have to we have to really understand that there are limits to human power.

[00:26:01]>> Yes.

[00:26:02]>> And that's that's what I would look to.

[00:26:04]That's why I say I I don't look to so much to God as I look to the restoration of the authority of the church and that will be a blessing for all of us.

[00:26:16]>> Finally, Morris, >> yes, >> you've been uh very clear about what it is that Labor needs to do to recover.

[00:26:23]What advice would you give to the Conservative party? You've made it clear that you think that Kem is impressive increasingly. What more do the Tories need to do? Okay. So, the Conservatives uh so I just want to say that this is well-intentioned advice. This is not malign. Uh I wish to see also the renewal of the Conservative party along with Labor because I think that's the right way for the look the Ky was superb in this local election. I thought she was brave. I thought she was articulate and yet and yet it didn't resonate. So the problem you've got is the inheritance of thatcher. This is what you seems that you cannot in the same way as maybe as you can see from where's >> y >> that wing of labor is still in thought to blare >> and still want to dance like it's 1999 the prince has become the king now. So those days are over. Um Kem is still in in lots of ways a free market. That's right. and this this comes through. So, you know, when if you're going to, as she says, restore the armed forces, then that needs active state involvement. So, once again, we go back, the conservatives were born to resist the rule of the free market. It was the corn laws. It was protecting agriculture and the villages from what was an incredible industrialization story. That's where the conservatives were formed. And the love of tradition needs to be emphasized. The beauty of our country.

[00:28:02]This is that conservatives. Where's their heartlands? Their heartlands are in the villages. They've lost the small towns to reform. That's where you don't worry about the big cities. The big cities are going to hell. You've got to concentrate on the small towns, the villages, >> and to restore a sense of right order.

[00:28:20]>> This is the beauty of conservatism. It has a concept of right order. And I think she's on a way. What stops her is this really visceral faty element of deregulation. We need to deregulate but there also needs to be accountability.

[00:28:38]So she's got to look to the conservative tradition. Chamberlain, Churchill, McMillan, I mean really serious figures >> who did temper the market with a notion of solidarity and white order.

[00:28:52]>> And that's what my advice would be. Be conservative genuinely in its full beauty and magnificence. Read Roger Screen. That's always my advice.