Erskine-Smith appeals Ontario Liberal nomination loss, alleging ‘irregularities’ | Power & Politics

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[00:00:00]After coming in third for three straight elections, the Ontario Liberals are searching for their comeback story.

[00:00:05]Liberal MP Nathaniel Erskin Smith wants to write it as the next leader. And although it would mean leaving his seat in Parliament, he still received encouragement from Prime Minister Mark Kernney. But this weekend, those plans collapsed when Erskin Smith lost a liberal nomination race in Scarboro Southwest by just 19 votes to Aansul Hafi, a pizza store franchisee. Well, today Erskin Smith has filed an appeal of those resorts results, excuse me, alleging serious irregularities.

[00:00:30]Nathaniel Erskin Smith joins me now. Um, Mr. Urskin, good to see you. Thank you for taking the time, sir.

[00:00:36]>> Good to see you, too.

[00:00:37]>> Um, interim Ontario Liberal Party Leader John Frasier, he stands by the results.

[00:00:41]He says it was a a good process. Why are you filing this appeal?

[00:00:46]I took the time to debrief with a range of scrutiniers and people should know these are not overly partisan folks here. You've got uh lawyers who are are coming at this from uh Bay Street experience and and reviewing all the evidence and and saw what happened on that day. And our chief scrutiner has 25 years of political experience. His name is Andreas Kasurus. He's got experience all around the world in elections training and participating in election observer missions from Yemen to Ukraine.

[00:01:15]And they all came to me and said here are a range of irregularities that you need to take seriously. And and look, it would be easier to say we accept the results and we move on and and and and life is what it is and and not keep fighting and it's taxing to fight just on a personal level. Uh but integrity of the process matters and and here are just a few examples just so people at at home understand, right? Uh, number one, there are 34 more votes in the ballot box than there were recorded voters that were struck off the list as having voted. And the margin of of we lost by 19 votes. Okay, so on that basis alone, there's a real challenge. But beyond that, the process was full of of problems from people in the ballot box being instructed how to vote, including on speaker phone, including on video calls in the ballot box getting instructed how to vote while they were marking their ballot. Uh you had instances of uh uh individuals using documentation that the party at the outset said they wouldn't accept lease agreements that included somehow kids under the age of 18 to prove residency.

[00:02:17]You one individual vote with an Amazon order as proof of residence. You run down the list and and it was inexplicable at times. Uh and and and the last key piece to note, I mean among many many pieces of information that that came that were that were frustrating and concerning, but there were countless people, an overwhelming number of people that were there as temporary residents for sure and and when they were asked where they where they lived, they couldn't remember their address. They faltered and then they said, "Oh, here's my here's my identification." And there were dozens and dozens and dozens of people who were taking pictures of their ballot. uh and the advice that I got from Andreas Casurus with this 25 years of experience around the world, he said, "Look, in other jurisdictions when we see this, it's evidence of vote buying."

[00:03:00]>> Okay. So, I I want to touch on that because there there's a lot there. Uh 34 more ballots than there were names with a margin of 19. I take your point on that. And as I understand it, one of the ballot sheets was completely missing where they cross off names. So, the some people could have potentially voted more than once based on that lack of control is what that could mean. Um, but the the identification, I mean, the federal Liberal Party has done away with people who aren't citizens or permanent residents voting in contests, but students and temporary residents can still vote in the provincial uh, Liberal votes. So, foreign identification could work. I take your point on the Amazon. I can mail an Amazon package anywhere. It doesn't mean I live there. I can see where that would be a problem. But on this vote buying characterization, people are taking a picture of their ballot as what? Proof that this is how they voted. is how it would be turned in to prove that you did what you were contracted to do. Is that what you're kind of alleging or implying here with that?

[00:03:57]>> Well, well, look, this just to be crystal clear, like I didn't think twice about this when it was told to me. I like I've uh uh you know, people take ballot pictures as jokes sometimes, I guess. Sure. But when uh when you see it at scale, I guess the question and andreas has more experience around the world uh in a range of elections. you know, I run down the list like over a dozen countries he's participated in election observer missions or or trained individuals. And he said, "It's not just me. You'll you talk to election experts around the world. This is this is what the concern would be." And and this is pretty common knowledge. Uh because put it another way, David, ask yourself, why would dozens and dozens and dozens of people who are temporary residents showing up not understanding the process when they're asked for their address, they're not certain about what their address is, uh and then they're taking pictures of their ballot. Ask yourself why would they be doing that?

[00:04:46]>> Well, it's also alleged in your appeal that a a high number of people said that they lost their driver's license or moved it recently moved into the area.

[00:04:54]So, it seems like there >> this came from Jennifer Bell. Jennifer Bell has been an election observer in Ukraine and she came out of the the room and I learned that I lost, but I didn't have any of this information initially and she said, "You should appeal." And look, I saw firsthand an a highly unusual number of people saying they'd lost their driver's licenses, saying they just moved to the area. And you add it all up and it creates real suspicion.

[00:05:18]And and look at the my my ask in all of this is nothing personal. I'm not asking you to be instated as the candidate.

[00:05:24]I've even in a crystal clear way said to the party, I want you to get to the bottom of this. And if people don't want me to be the candidate, I will remove myself from this completely. So long as you get to the bottom of this and you conduct a full investigation because that's what we deserve as Ontario Liberals and and as anyone in this democracy, we should reform the rules.

[00:05:41]Uh we should be serious about that reform and we should make sure we we conduct a full investigation to get to the bottom of irregularities.

[00:05:47]>> But when you say racist suspicions, I mean there there's often just incompetence and human error that leads to irregularities and problems. We've you and I have both seen that in politics over the years. And then there's flatout corruption and manipulation of a process. I mean, what sort of suspicion do you have?

[00:06:03]>> Here's a question, right? So, uh, what explains someone on a video call in the ballot box getting instructions of how to vote?

[00:06:13]>> I I do not have an explanation.

[00:06:15]>> Or is that >> No, look, >> is that incompetence or is that something more serious than that? Well, I I would say, look, I don't know, but I I would say it's definitely incompetent on the people running it to allow a video conference in the ballot box.

[00:06:27]Like, you know what I mean? Like, if I tried to do that, I've never voted in a party nomination, but I can't imagine the Elections Canada people would let me get away with that on federal voting.

[00:06:34]>> Well, so I'm glad you say this, David, because in in the appeal materials, I I did want to note I wanted to be constructive and I wanted to say, look, we need a full investigation. I want to make sure it's not about me at all and it's about the process and improving and protecting the integrity of the process.

[00:06:48]Uh and two areas where I think we absolutely need to protect the integrity of our process. One comes out of the HO commission where they recommended and the federal government did adopt this change to say that voting participation should be limited to citizens and to permanent residents. the Ontario Liberal Party has not changed the rules in I think an appropriate way and that needs to change especially after we just saw hundreds of temporary residents show up uh at the at the polls on Saturday. Uh and the the second piece here and you've identified this is uh the party clearly was incapable of running an election where 1500 people voted in a very short window of time on a Saturday afternoon and elections Ontario should be responsible for this because what we saw on Saturday was that a core tenant of our democracy which is ballot secrecy was completely undermined and elections Ontario should should be at the forefront of protecting that. But you know, you look at this appeal and you look at the irregularities that you're highlighting here and you look at your past comments that the party establishment was working to prevent you from getting the nomination. I mean, what what makes you say that? Why does that the party establishment wanted to stop you from winning at Scar Bro Southwest?

[00:07:56]>> I mean, they've said so themselves. I think you have Look, I I I I don't want to get too in the weeds on this because like I I I want to be squarely focused on the process here and how we improve the process and how we make sure something like this never happens again.

[00:08:08]But but look, I mean Tom Allison, who's a longtime uh old guard establishment for the Ontario Liberal Party, he was chief scrutiner for for Mr. Hai. And when asked about why he was there, he said, "I'm here to save the party."

[00:08:19]Ostensibly to save the party from me, I suppose. You had Ted Lyo who was campaign manager for Mr. Hafi. Ted Lo who previously was running nomination campaign for Hondong and has long-standing ties to Mr. Allison and to the party. You had Alexis Lavine there.

[00:08:36]You had Jack Seagull there. you run down. I mean, run down the list. There were all sorts of people who were there supporting opponents and and making sure that we were unsuccessful. That's okay, by the way. Like, I I don't take issue with uh a number of folks in the party who don't want to see me succeed. That that's okay. That's democracy. It's not democracy to see the number of irregularities, to see uh the party turn a blind eye, I think, unfortunately, to so many of these irregularities. I said to my wife, like, should we do this or should I do this? and she said, "I don't want you to from the perspective of I want you at home more. I I want I don't want you stressed about these things.

[00:09:09]It's not good." You know, like what what what's the outcome here? But on the flip side, we can't let this happen in Canada.

[00:09:16]>> So, on your immediate next steps, I mean, the appeal is filed. E either the the result potentially stands and either way, your battle for Scar Bro Southwest is over or you said you will withdraw in return for an investigation. So, you've kind of moved on uh from this particular nomination in this particular provincial writing. What does it mean for your leadership ambitions? Because this was supposed to be where you would go eventually resign as a federal MP uh Mr. Erskin Smith and then run for for the the leadership. I mean, where where does that stand out? Do you stay as an MP or do you still intend to pursue the top job in the party?

[00:09:49]>> I am going to step away from my role as an MP no matter what. I said this I've said this for a long time. I know folks on Twitter don't necessarily believe a politician, but I I said from the outset that I would stay on at the request of the uh the prime minister's office because we're in a tough parliamentary math situation. That math's gotten a little easier in my last conversation with the prime minister's office. I we sort of agreed, you know, we're going to stick it out till the end of the parliamentary session, but I'm going to, you know, hopefully give a farewell speech sometime in June and and and I've already thanked constituents and and I'm going to resign and and hopefully have an orderly fair nomination process in Beaches East York and pass the baton to uh a new generation, a next candidate.

[00:10:29]And in terms of a leadership race, I honestly I don't know. I mean, I've been so consumed by listening to stories on the ground from voters and from scrutiners. I I have been so seized with making sure we got the materials in time within 72 hours after the start of the nomination meeting. Uh and obviously it's a setback. I'm you know I'm I'm not going to lie about it. It's a setback to not win a nomination when I I really believed if we won the nomination we we flipped a tough bi-election. There would be a great path to reforming and and delivering change in the party and across Ontario. It's still true that we need change across Ontario and change in the Ontario Liberal Party. Uh, but I'm not sure if I'm if I'm the person to deliver that change. I'm I'm going to listen to the team and and we'll see.

[00:11:10]>> Is there a timeline, just as a quick final point of of when you might make that decision because I I know there's not a lot of time uh, you know, to to make the call uh, with the vote coming in the fall, but uh, obviously you'd like to finalize where you what your next chapter is going to be in your life. Uh, so so when do you think we'll get a clear answer? Not a clear a final answer.

[00:11:28]>> Well, I'm going to finalize a decision for federal politics soon regardless of of any other decision. So, just to be clear about that, uh, this isn't some idea of of hanging on to a role for for my own for my own benefit. If anything, it's been exhausting trying to do two jobs at once. Uh, in terms of a timeline on next steps, I'm I'm not sure just yet. I'm going to reflect. I'm going to talk to the team and I, you know, maybe there's some world of people out there in Ontario who want change desperately the way I do, but are also willing to join the Ontario Liberal Party. Uh, if that's the case, you know, maybe there's a path. But uh but if not, like I look, I there are lots of good people who want to put their name on a leadership ballot and I'm going to be helping to reform this party one way or another.

[00:12:12]>> Nathaniel Erskin Smith, we always appreciate the time. Uh thanks for joining us. I know it must be a busy day and a tough day, but thank you for uh being here on Power and Politics, sir.

[00:12:19]Much obliged. I want to get to well an appeal in Ontario and some electoral drama there involving the Ontario Liberal Party because Liberal MP Nathaniel Erskin Smith is appealing the results of a provincial nomination battle, one that he lost by 19 votes.

[00:12:31]and Ursen Smith, who now says he's reconsidering his intentions to run for the Ontario Liberal Party leadership.

[00:12:38]He's alleging multiple serious irregularities in the nomination race.

[00:12:41]Have a listen.

[00:12:43]>> Ask yourself, why would dozens and dozens and dozens of people who are temporary residents showing up not understanding the process when they're asked for their address, they're not certain about what their address is, and then they're taking pictures of their ballot. Ask yourself, why would they be doing that? The party clearly was incapable of running an election where 1500 people voted in a very short window of time on a Saturday afternoon and elections Ontario should be responsible for this because what we saw on Saturday was that a core tenant of our democracy which is ballot secrecy was completely undermined.

[00:13:17]>> Okay, Cameron, I want to start with you on this. Look, I know this is a a a story about a nomination defeat for the third place party in Ontario, but in the latest round of polling, the Ontario Liberals are leading or tied and competitive and clearly liberal circumstances have changed nationally.

[00:13:31]But the stuff that Nate Urskin Smith is talking about there, Amazon package delivery slips being used as proof of residency. I mean, what do you make of what we've heard there and what this could mean for that leadership race?

[00:13:44]>> Well, it sounds off to put it lightly.

[00:13:47]I mean, a lot of the irregularities that we're hearing about are more than questionable and have to be investigated. And of course, parties have processes for these things. Like, every single party, federal and provincial, has a system uh through which you can go if you have a complaint or you you witness some irregularity and they're going to have to deal with that and treat it extremely seriously.

[00:14:09]problem here is that this is now, as you just said, it's it's gone beyond some, you know, small local domination race that nobody really knows about into a bigger question about the Ontario Liberals who are supposed to be trying to be positioning themselves as a government in waiting and um frankly have been capable of doing that pretty amazingly as the third party with so few MPPs. um as and as Doug Ford has been his popularity has been flagging. So >> what they have to do with this now is treat this very seriously and try and do so in a quiet way so that this can just be dealt with and they can talk about affordability and they can talk about housing and they can talk about infrastructure and transit and all the other stuff that people actually care about. um and and position themselves whomever the new leader is going to be as that government in waiting uh when to to to replace Doug Ford. This type of nomination battle stuff as important as it is to be dealt with by the party and by the party processes is not what's going to is not what's going to do them any favors in the election.

[00:15:18]>> No, but Emily, there's there's a lot in there, right? Like people being instructed, according to Nate Smith, on a you know, I guess a video chat, a FaceTime while they're in the ballot box. like I I didn't know you could take your phone out and you voted in these things. Um the the Ontario Liberal Party did not adopt the rules recommended by Justice Hogue to limit voting to citizens and permanent residents. They allow temporary residents to vote and that led to some questions about IDs. Um he may very well drop decide not to seek the leadership now. So this has the potential to become a bigger thing. What do you make of what we heard today?

[00:15:49]In my head, it's already a bigger thing because I feel like uh it's the second time I'm going through this story in basically six months. Um Pablo Rodriguez, federal minister, uh was the leader of the Quebec Liberal Party and was forced to resign uh due to this scandal late last fall when it came to the rules of his nomination race. uh and it got and it engulfed the Quebec Liberal Party for weeks about uh alleged brownies eg paying people for vote. Uh there was a bill that was put forward to uh trying to clean up some of the gaps that allowed for ethical irregularities that were not necessarily uh irregularities legally in uh election Quebec. Uh and and so there's I think a similar clean spring cleanup that needs to happen uh in Ontario. I'm wondering if uh it's going to be as long for us to actually have a sense of what's going on and and who's responsible for what and what actually happened. Uh because the more you waste weeks on trying to figure out the truth, the less the harder it is for you to even get your message across and be effective as a as a party trying to to trying to be in parliament. And so uh it's going to be very hard I think on the Ontario Liberal because at this point I'd say it's the Liberal brand that is being affected because I'm talking about the two u the the two largest provinces in this country being affected by uh such stories in in less than six months. So I think there is something there that needs to be looked into. Uh and I really hope it cleans up because in this state of people not trusting democracy, this is the last sort of stories that we need right now.

[00:17:39]>> Yeah, Peter McCay, 34 more votes in the ballot box according to Nate Ursen Smith and was recorded on the voting sheets.

[00:17:47]An entire page missing of people who have been handed ballots with witnesses suggesting people may have voted more than once. I I mean Nater Smith says he's given up on this. I will not run. I will not seek nomination.

[00:17:59]Just do an investigation. I just there's there's a lot in this for a little nomination in Scar Bro.

[00:18:05]>> Well, there really is, David. This is messy. It's multifaceted. It's a it's almost like a Canadian version of House of Cards. You had candidate uh not resigning but running proincially. You had the neighboring riding where all of this took place from where Nate represents federally. Uh the nomination had been secured by this same individual, Mr. His I believe uh who was a restaurant tour obviously very well organized within the Bangladeshi community and uh and came out in force and you know the rules as were pointed out are a bit sketchy to begin with but I'll tell you um you know having been through nominations and leaderships this goes on more often than not and it's ugly. It's a it's a dark side of politics. Interference and nominations is nothing new. I'm this is not a comment about Mr. Erskin Smith personally, but he's acting sort of naive that this could possibly have happened to him, albeit he had much uh larger ambitions to win the leadership.

[00:19:13]So, you know, it's it's political Harry Kerry to try to take this into the courts. and to mix metaphors, you know, you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

[00:19:23]>> Yeah. Nathan Cullen, last word to you. I mean, it can be like House of Cards, but often it's with the cast of VEP, you know, it sometimes is a bit more first than it is Deep Strategy. Uh, and and some of the irregularities that are being tal alleged here are they're they're kind of cartoonish, right, in like the Amazon label as a proof of address. I mean, if I send something to you, I don't get to vote in British Columb, you know, it's crazy, right? I mean, last word to you on this. It depends on who you're voting for, David.

[00:19:48]Voting for you, then well, maybe that's enough. Um, this is uh this is a headache the Liberal Party of Ontario did not want, right? They want to they want a clean process on their leadership. As Emily said, they're up in the poll. I mean, never has a provincial party done so little and gained so much in the polls. They just by existing here we are, they have a shot at government.

[00:20:11]So, they want these things not to happen. Uh just just today someone was lamenting that our federal leadership where Avi Lewis was selected wasn't dramatic enough. And I can now happily say the lack of intense drama and court cases and allegations is something you wish for in a leadership race so that you can get on with the larger conversation outside of the machinations of the party. Uh the fact that Nate isn't going to run and just wants the investigation I think lends some credibility to what he's saying that it needs to be investigated and his potential solution has been floated before where elections Ontario is the one that must you know conduct these things because they matter so much >> in especially in writings where winning the nomination is a deacto winning the seat not the case in Scarbo but in many writings that's where the heavy thing happens and as Peter says that's where the shenanigans really go on not in the general it happens in the nomination process. Yes.

[00:21:04]>> You know, Nathan Col, my plan is is uh to use Amazon to use your address and I'll take off my glasses and I'll use your ID, you know, and we'll get away with this. I'll be able to vote no problem.

[00:21:14]>> Full identity theft. Okay, that's going to happen. I just uh pre confessed to a crime on national television, so that's great.

[00:21:21]>> That'd be a good deep episode.

[00:21:22]>> And now Amazon gets our electoral lists.

[00:21:26]>> Exactly. Yeah, the Bezos effect. That's just what we need. All right, gang.

[00:21:30]Thanks so much. Appreciate all of you for being here. Emily Nicola, Nathan Cullen, Cameron Ahmad, and Peter McCay.