Orthodox Priest Who Left Orthodoxy: A Response to Dr. Gavin Ortlund and Joshua Schooping

本站添加: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]All right. So, this video comes to you today uh because I wanted to make this for my father. Um my father sent me this video the other day. Um to give some quick background. Um I absolutely love my father. Uh I owe my life to my father. Um he is a wonderful man and I have nothing but respect, honor, um gratitude uh towards my father and I love him dearly. Um, and this is meant in love and I hope that he takes it that way. Um, but he sent me this video uh a day or two ago and said, "Jeremy, I pray that you watch this." It's a video I've seen before. Um, but I thought, you know what, this I think my dad thinks he has found the lynch pin against orthodoxy, right? I think my dad when he watched this video, I think it was the the nail in the coffin, right? I think he was already questioning uh the sanity uh of orthodoxy. I think he was questioning whether orthodoxy was a cult. I think he was questioning whether orthodoxy even preached the gospel. Um and I think this video probably to his mind uh makes him think that yep he was right all along.

[00:01:11]Um orthodoxy is a a cult of marology, man-made traditions uh that has distorted the gospel. Uh because that is absolutely the intention. um of these two individuals that you see here before you. Uh the one on the left you probably know Gavin Orland is very well-known um Protestant apologist um who speaks often against orthodoxy.

[00:01:36]Um and the his guest which I'll add in here because I'm sorry I don't know his name right off the top of my head. Um he is a Lutheran pastor.

[00:01:45]He was a former Orthodox priest. um was a you know a priest in good standing in the in in orthodoxy and he left orthodoxy. He wrote a book called being disillusioned um and it's clear from this video that he is absolutely disillusioned with orthodoxy. Um and he's made it his goal here to um I think in many ways to attack orthodoxy. Um so that's what's going on in this video.

[00:02:17]Um, if you want to understand their motivations, these are two Protestants critiquing Eastern Orthodoxy from a clearly and strictly Protestant perspective. And that's important to understand. Even though this this gentleman um you know who I'm sure is a is a wonderful Christian man um even though he um is a former Orthodox priest, this interview, you would never know it.

[00:02:48]Uh in other words, he's not in any stage. This entire video is an hour long. My critique of course is not going to cover the whole thing because this would be a three or four hour long video and I just can't do that. So I apologize. Um, but I've taken the major points that he makes in this video and I'm going to respond to each and every single one of them. Um, and some um, but this individual's um, perspective is in no way charitable to orthodoxy whatsoever. It's very interesting. Um, it's almost as if he has an axe to grind against orthodoxy.

[00:03:22]Um you I was expecting when going through this video um to hear him remark uh at times you know about this or this other you know positive thing about orthodoxy um one of the beauties of orthodoxy one of the richnesses one of the consistencies etc etc but instead it's all orthodoxy you know uh left the path um distorts the gospel uh is exclusivist to its detriment is, you know, forcing people into iconullia. Um, and you know, marology has gone off the rails. Um, and, you know, quite frankly, he questions whether the gospel is even preached, right, in a sense in orthodoxy. So, I think he he labeled his book well, right? Disillusioned. This is you're hearing a man who's disillusioned with orthodoxy. Um, and I think that that perspective is not unimportant when you're listening to their critique of orthodoxy. With that being said, let me make a couple opening comments here that I think is very important. One thing these two gentlemen are going to do, Dad, is make orthodoxy sound like um a total circus. And Protestants, wouldn't you know it, have it right. Dang, they got it figured out.

[00:04:50]And you know, maybe Protestants aren't totally perfect, but they have the right ecclesiology. Um because they're just all very we can all get along, right? U and because of that they have this superior approach to not only ecclesiology but they would argue they have the superior view of the gospel.

[00:05:13]That view is poppycock.

[00:05:17]The view here espoused by these two guys, I'm sorry, it's a fiction because even in the very context of this conversation, and please understand this, this is crucial for you to understand the author, the gentleman on the right, Joseph, he's a Lutheran pastor. Okay?

[00:05:37]He's now a Lutheran pastor. So, he abides by the Augsburg confession. His very idea of what saving grace is, his idea of ecclesiology, his idea of the sacraments of the church contradict and are inconsistent with Gavin Ortland's ecclesiology and and view of the sacraments and how salvation is attained. They don't even agree with each other.

[00:06:09]Joseph, the author, would not allow Gavin Ortland to come take communion at his church.

[00:06:19]They can't even agree on who to baptize.

[00:06:25]Joseph as a Lutheran uh pastor, they are baptizing babies.

[00:06:30]And Gavin Ortland is saying, "Nah, can't do it. You have to baptize people who believe, right? Believers baptism. So on two fundamental views within the church and within the the understanding of what Christianity is, what the sacraments are, what salvation and sanctification and the role of the church is, they can't even agree. And quite frankly, the one would lock the other out. Would he allow him in the church? Sure. But could he come take communion? Absolutely not.

[00:07:08]Think about that for a second. These two guys who in this video, if you watch it, and I encourage you to go watch it, it's as if they're holding hands, singing kumbaya. Isn't it wonderful, brother?

[00:07:21]We're all Christians here, and we believe in the invisible Christian church, and so we can just get along.

[00:07:28]When in actuality, if for example, Dr. Gavin Orland, who is a reformed Baptist, abides by the 1689 London Baptist Confession. What do they say about Lutheran view of the Eucharist?

[00:07:46]They say it is repugnant. But listen, they're even more poignant than that.

[00:07:51]Here's what Gavin Ortland's theology says about Joshua.

[00:08:00]the doctrine which maintains a change of substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood. In other words, the Lutheran view that the bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ commonly called transubstantiation by consecration of a priest which happens in Lutheranism or by any other way. In other words, Lutheran included, listen to this, is repugnant not to scripture alone, but even to common sense in reason.

[00:08:36]So, Dr. Gavin Ortland's theology calls Joseph's view of the Eucharist repugnant, not according to scripture alone, is not common sensical. It even defies reason.

[00:08:51]It overthrows the nature of the ordinance and has been and is the cause of manifold superstitions, yay, of gross idolatries.

[00:09:06]That is the Protestant reality. That's the reality between these two gentlemen you see right here before you decrying orthodoxy and attacking orthodoxy for in ways which you're going to see are so inconsistent and flattering to themselves in their own position. Meanwhile, they commit many of the same inconsistencies that they claim the Orthodox commit.

[00:09:35]So do not be confused or fooled by some notion that oh Protestants have it right. Right. Protestants got it together. Man, those Orthodox, you know, those weird mystical orthodox.

[00:09:53]Orthodoxy around the world. And I don't care who you want to go talk to. The Ethiopians, the cops, the Syrians, the Orientals, Eastern Orthodox, any of them, all of them are consistent on the Eucharist, on baptism, on what the sacraments are, on the nature and ecclesiology of the church, on salvation by grace through faith worked out in love, on prayer and the use of icons which goes back all the way to the beginning.

[00:10:38]All of this is consistent and maintained in the ancient apostolic orthodox churches.

[00:10:47]These gentlemen cannot claim the same thing. They can attack orthodoxy all they want to and they can claim and I'm going to show you in this video where they say the orthodox understanding of the gospel doesn't fit their consciences.

[00:11:04]Their consciences can't allow for xyz and that ultimately is the choice before you. your own conscience when viewing reformed Baptists or Presbyterians or Lutheran or Methodists or Pentecostals or Unitarians or 7th Day Adventists or non-denominationals.

[00:11:30]You decide which is right. Who knows?

[00:11:33]These guys don't even know. They cannot agree.

[00:11:38]And yet all Orthodox bodies on earth are crystal clear when it comes to these foundational core views of the church.

[00:11:52]The body and blood of Christ, the fulfillment of the great commission, baptism, what it means, how it's to be done, where it's to be done, and to whom.

[00:12:04]The Orthodox Church has been unified in all these things for 2,000 years.

[00:12:10]And these two Protestant individuals, I'm sorry, couldn't even hold it together for 50 years, let alone 500.

[00:12:23]With that background, let's see how this goes.

[00:12:26]>> Everyone, welcome or welcome back to Truth Unites. Truth Unites is a place for theology and apologetics done in an ironic way. And this is my second interview with Josh Schuping who is the pastor of Alliance Church in Russellville, Arkansas, and the author of this book that we're going to talk about today called Disillusioned: Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church. So, the last interview that we did talked a little bit more about your story, and there's a link to that one in the video description. In this one, we'll talk a little bit more about your theology and the theological concerns you have that you work through in this book. So, I'm really excited to get into this. Uh, thanks for doing this, Josh.

[00:13:07]How you doing today?

[00:13:08]>> Thank God. Uh, I'm alive. I'm well. Uh, God is good. One of these fruits is the proper confession of Christ.

[00:13:17]>> Yes, that well said. And and you know with the test of 1 Corinthians 12:3 that no one can say Jesus is Lord except speaking by the Holy Spirit there we've also have a doctrinal test that a a Buddhist or a Mormon wouldn't pass. They wouldn't say Jesus is Lord in the sense that Paul understands that. So >> and he says that Mormons don't do this or can't do this. That's simply not true. Right? Mormons claim that Jesus is their Lord. Right? Mormons claim, Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus is Lord. There's these are views that are taught uh and believed by many sectarian schismatic and heretical groups. They call Jesus Lord. It not a indication in and of itself of the church or of even someone who is actually even a Christian. To me, just obeying these scriptures is, as you put it, is what we're required to do. Um, but let me let me ask you a question about the anxiety that that these exclusivistic claims put people in because I want to read a great quote from your book on page 30 and again encourage people to pick the book up uh by the link in the description.

[00:14:32]You you talk about how these exclusivistic claims are represented by multiple churches. So for example, the same claim uh that the Eastern Orthodox make is made by Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox in broad form. We're the one true church. And you say uh this sends credulous inquirers and wouldbe defenders of the faith on a man-centered hunt to find out which one true church is really the one true church. According of course to the investigators gasp private judgment. They're making the argument sound as if all choices are equal. In other words, to choose between Calvary Chapel down the road or New Horizon Church or, you know, Greg Olstein's church or the Lutheran church down the road or the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodoxy or an Oriental Orthodox Church. It's all the same. It's all the same claim. They you just have to kind of you know figure it out on your own when we know that is simply not the case. The only true church is the historic apostolic orthodox church. How do you know that?

[00:15:45]You know that because it's a simple uh historical line that is broken in 1054.

[00:15:53]And from there comes the uh Protestant Reformation. All of which are you know guilty of the fruit from which they they fall. and or the fruit of the tree from which they fall. And that tree is the Roman Catholic Church.

[00:16:07]So you don't have to have this, oh, I need to figure it out. No, the church that was established by Jesus Christ is a historic visible church through his disciples through the apostles and then those who followed thereafter the bishops through the laying on of hands.

[00:16:27]The visible church through that administrative function in part and then followed up of course by doctrinal uh lineage, doctrinal consistency from that time. that's found only in one place and that is the historic ancient apostolic orthodox church.

[00:16:47]Now if you want to say that's Eastern Orthodox, that's the oriental to Ethiopian.

[00:16:53]Great. Fine.

[00:16:55]All of that they have the same teachings. They have the same practice.

[00:17:00]It doesn't matter where you fall when you fall into an ancient apostolic orthodox church.

[00:17:06]Period. Neither of these gentlemen can make that same claim. Neither of these gentlemen can make the claim about the other person's church either.

[00:17:16]Only ancient apostolic orthodox churches are able to make that claim. Only ancient apostolic orthodox churches have doctrinal consistency all the way back to the beginning that have consisted to this very day unchanged. Now, we're going to talk about unchanged a bit in this video, but do not be fooled for them to say that this exclusivistic claim is some somehow equal to the Protestant claim of an invisible church and really it's kind of just pick your flavor is simply and utterly false.

[00:17:58]Now, it requires a PhD in church history and theology together with mastery of multiple languages, not to mention access to all the relevant resources to find out whether one is even in the church and therefore saved. Then you quote Romans 10 and say no. You know, you know you're saved if you have Christ. And I just thought that was helpful because so often we're Protestants are criticized for over relying upon private judgment. But one of the things you're pointing out here is it's unavoidable to use our judgment to make a decision of which church we will be in. And it really does put people in anxiety to try to figure out, you know, and I know so many people like this. They're thinking they're worried about getting damned by making the wrong ecclesial decision. Do you see people feeling that anxiety at all?

[00:18:46]>> Yes. Um, I've had many long conversations with people who really did struggle and suffer with that very anxiety.

[00:18:56]>> So, there's no anxiety needed. We understand and we believe in a merciful God who has told us again and again that his mercy is forever. Right? As far as the east is from the west, right? This is the God that we serve. And for them to talk about this anxiety that you have to be, you know, in the right church or your or your salvation is at issue. I'm sorry. That's a Protestant problem.

[00:19:26]I remember very clearly when I was a reformed Calvinist. We spent half our time attacking the Armenians down the road, right? Our Wesian uh brothers and sisters of the non-denominational evangelical church. The Calvinists love picking on them and questioning constantly if the gospel is even preached there at all. And you're going to hear that referred to here.

[00:19:53]The gospel is proclaimed every liturgy.

[00:19:58]The gospel is proclaimed every time Orthodox Christians come together.

[00:20:04]Orthodoxy is the repository of the Christian faith. And that faith is founded on the core understanding of Christ's death and resurrection and ascension into heaven. That he has conquered death and that because he so loved the world that he gave himself not only for us but for the whole world. You see orthodoxy has preserved the very Christianity that these two gentlemen are arguing about.

[00:20:36]It is a the faith. It is the church. It is the body of Christ. And Christ, we know, is the way, the truth, and the life. There is life in the church.

[00:20:47]It It's espoused even in the Nyian creed that both of these gentlemen, although with an added filioquay, ironically, recite or believe in.

[00:20:58]>> Yeah. Well, one of the concerns, one of the primary concerns I have is kind of a popular claim as well, uh, from the Orthodox Church where they say we're the we're unchanged. we've never changed is the church of the fathers. Every, you know, everything's been maintained the same. And it's a really rude awakening for people when this sort of pyotistic kind of uh nonsense really gets absorbed. It it can be very very painful. Um I remember in seminary like I felt sick to my stomach when I'm in a lurggical theology class and they're going through the history and it's like this has changed, this has changed, this has changed, this has changed, this has changed, this has changed, this has changed. And I'm like, "Wow." People say, "Oh, well, if you got into a time machine and you were worshiping with Justin Martyr, and then you got into a time machine and went and worshiped with Serial of Alexandria, and you got into a time machine and worshiped with John of Damascus, and that it would always be the same. This is the sort of popular image. People call me a fool for for having believed what, you know, local priests had told me about these sorts of of romantic legends of Orthodoxy." Um, but you know, kind of bracketing that aside like and just sort of taking it very seriously where they say because they really do on some level say it's never changed.

[00:22:12]And when it comes to icons, they say, "Well, we've always venerated icons.

[00:22:17]It's just how we've always been." But when you go back and you look at the first several centuries of the church, it was a trope for them. Just a constant repeated thing. like every apologist had a chapter or some sort of section that that dealt with we don't do images.

[00:22:37]>> So if you've read the fathers from the first few centuries as he's describing what are they combating? They're combating Roman paganism which used idols. So yes, you see in the apologists and in the fathers of the early church a decrying of the use of idols to false gods. Nowhere do you see any sort of attack on the use of images just generally.

[00:23:10]We know with modern scholarship that the use of images goes back to the very very beginning. Some of the earliest uh things we have found go back to the early uh 2n century if not earlier.

[00:23:28]This idea that this is some sort of um you know um growth or evolution within the church is hogwash. And I can tell you very strongly one reason why you know this is actually something that they're not going to want to concede.

[00:23:45]And that is the very uh existence of the Ethiopian Orthodox, the cops, the Coptics, right? The um Oriental Orthodox is evidence that the history of the church, the ancient apostolic orthodox churches have always used icons. Why? Because the argument is is that well you know by the time you get the church and Constantine and the influence you know the Roman influence and uh you know they bring in these images and it just kind of grew from there that hogwash is wiped away when you realize that churches with independent evolution i.e. The Ethiopian uh church for example um the or oriental Orthodox churches with that were not under the influence and sway of Rome have icons going back to the earliest of times and they continue the use of icons to this very day. You see this is what these guys are missing.

[00:24:55]He talks about in this very clip that I just played, right? They they talk about well um you know how do you find you know the the right church you know how can you um know that you're in the true church the practice is exactly the same let's go back a little bit I want to hear what he said >> and they're going through the history and it's like this has changed this has changed this >> right he's saying this has changed this has changed this has changed what he's describing are very understandable slight modifications which happen from you know this geographic region to this one this this time period to this time period variations in the liturgy etc. But what hasn't changed?

[00:25:42]Doctrine.

[00:25:44]For 2,000 years, and this again is something that he simply cannot claim for himself or for Gavin Ortland. For 2,000 years, the church has maintained a consistent practice related to who God is as declared in the Nyian creed has not altered the practice and the view of baptism as laid out in the dedicay which again has not you know been argued or changed the idea and understanding of the nature of the church. This has not changed for 2,000 years. The changes he wants to talk about, oh, you know, priests used to say this prayer aloud, but now they say it, you know, pray it quietly, or now a deacon's doing that prayer over here in the corner. These types of things, or this hymn used to be sung at this time, but now it's not, etc. It is absolute malarkey.

[00:26:42]Otherwise, he'd bring it out here that there are some sort of sweeping changes in orthodoxy changing the fabric of the faith when he knows himself that is simply not true. Can we as adults and as people who have studied church history understand that of course it's not this carbon copy from the first century or even the 3rd century or 4th century to 2026.

[00:27:13]It's not. But would a Christian from that time period would Augustine recognize the divine liturgy?

[00:27:23]Absolutely.

[00:27:25]We know for a fact why because Augustine was practicing the liturgy of the church. He was wearing vestments. He was using incense. There were uh you know lectionary the prayers etc etc. It was the practice of the eukarist. There was confession.

[00:27:43]You had holy uncction. The sacraments of the church were there and they were practiced in the same way. And in that sense that it is unchanged to this very day.

[00:27:58]So, it's disingenuous and I would argue intellectually dishonest for them to nitpick at these quote unquote changes when the fact of the matter is the consistency in the Orthodox belief and practice for 2,000 years makes their squables between each other related to the Eucharist and baptism and ecclesiology utterly laughable.

[00:28:26]These two gentlemen right here can't even agree on what a true church is according to their own reformed standards. What is a true church? Where the word is preached rightly and the sacraments are rightly administered.

[00:28:42]Neither of them agree on the sacraments.

[00:28:45]So the other one is looking at the other one saying you don't rightly administer the sacraments. They can't agree.

[00:28:52]So therefore it's not an actual church.

[00:28:55]But they don't want to talk about that.

[00:28:56]And they very very conveniently do not talk about that in this video. In this video, it's not as if they're going to the same church. They talk as if they are both Lutheran pastors. They talk as if they are both reformed Baptist pastors.

[00:29:16]It's it's wild.

[00:29:19]and they want to attack orthodoxy for changing over 2,000 years in a religion that covers the globe over that same time period.

[00:29:33]Of course, there is slight modification for demographics, geog, you know, geographies, etc., etc., times, places.

[00:29:45]But we believe that Christ established a real church and he set up an administrative body through the apostles and the the the first uh deacons and priests and bishops so that why? So that they could actually through economia they can make allowances to adapt the faith as needed.

[00:30:05]Why? For the salvation of the world.

[00:30:09]Is that for me to decide? Absolutely not. It's for neither of them to decide either. Who is it for to decide? God has given that responsibility and what a responsibility that is to those bishops leading the church today.

[00:30:29]It is between them and God and their responsibility before God to guide the church.

[00:30:38]But they're not doing so alone. Why? We believe the Holy Spirit is preserving truth through through men sinful and you know sometimes astray even when men are of that nature which of course we know is happens even with sinful deceived men the church remains the pillar and foundation of truth by the power of the Holy Spirit not because men just get it right but because of that we can believe as Orthodox Christians, as ancient apostolic orthodox people of faith, we can believe that the church has been preserved and has preserved truth even when there are these minor modifications in practice from this geography of this time, this era to another.

[00:31:34]And we can still say that there's been no change. Why? Because the core of our faith has not changed.

[00:31:45]Thanks be to God.

[00:31:48]>> And when it comes to icons, they say, "Well, we've always venerated icons."

[00:31:54]Because the church has.

[00:31:57]Now, have they venerated icons in the, you know, immediately starting in the first century? Did it take some time for the church again through the power of the Holy Spirit through the offices of those Christians who died and it was they were tasked with preserving the faith and passing on the faith. Did those Christians very quickly go to the use of images and those images were revered? Why? Because the people that they were images of died for the faith and were sometimes in many ways martyed in in very violent ways.

[00:32:37]Absolutely. And did the prayers to these people who they knew and walked the streets with and then they saw died for their faith. So they know they're in heaven. And we know from John's testimony himself in Revelation that those saints, those very saints who they knew were in heaven at the around the throne of Christ were praying on our behalf.

[00:33:00]It is absolutely and completely obvious that this practice came very very very very early and it was a natural outgrowth of what? Of ancient apostolic orthodox practice. It is a Christianity.

[00:33:18]See, I think these Protestants deep down they have a problem with Christianity being a historic faith rooted even in the ugliness, right? The difficulties of the church because it has spanned 2,000 years. We're going to talk later. Joshua talks about how some people they, you know, get some notion of uh the Orthodox Church and they idealize it, but they want to attack Protestantism. These guys do the same thing. They've idealized Protestantism.

[00:33:52]Like I said, they've they made it sound as if Protestantism is just this, you know, big happy group that everyone gets along and, you know, they all realize that they're all the church, you know, because they're all part of the invisible church because they have faith in Christ. It's absolute hogwash.

[00:34:09]Are there problems in the church?

[00:34:11]Absolutely.

[00:34:13]There's problems in every single church on earth, including his Lutheran church.

[00:34:19]Lord have mercy. Female pastors and priests, etc., etc., which you don't see in orthodoxy.

[00:34:28]And then on the Baptist side of thing, it's even worse.

[00:34:33]It is wild to me that people who watch this video, unless and only because they are so completely convinced already of their Protestantism that they hear what they want to hear in the words of this one individual. I want to comment on something quickly here as well. My dad sent me this video. as I mentioned, he I you know believes I I'm sure that this is the um the death nail to orthodoxy, right? This is it, right?

[00:35:03]He's going to be just convinced. Why?

[00:35:06]Well, because this one Orthodox priest left the church and became a Lutheran pastor.

[00:35:13]Well, I'm sorry, but my father is a reformed Calvinist Presbyterian. Why didn't this guy become a reformed Calvinist Presbyterian?

[00:35:22]Why didn't he become a reformed Baptist?

[00:35:25]Gavin Ortland would ask him, "No, he didn't. He became a Lutheran."

[00:35:30]Why? Why did he choose that? If Calvinism is the right way, if Calvinism is the best interpretation of the gospel, if Calvinism presents the truth as to how the gospel is to be presented to the world, this guy became a Lutheran, not a Calvinist.

[00:35:53]Why is that okay? And how can you explain that?

[00:35:59]This one individual, I'm sorry, it's an anomaly. Thanks be to God. For every one Joshua leaving the Orthodox Church to become a Lutheran, I can point you to scores of reformed Calvinists, Presbyterians, Lutheran, Anglicans, non-denominationals who are coming to Orthodoxy every single day.

[00:36:31]And guess what? They stay in orthodoxy.

[00:36:36]A case in point, Father, Father Josiah Trenum, he was a reformed Presbyterian.

[00:36:43]He graduated from uh Reformed Theological Seminary in Westminster Theological Seminary. He was a he was a reformed Christian presbyterian of Presbyterians.

[00:36:55]He left Presbyterianism just as I did and he came to holy orthodoxy.

[00:37:02]He wrote a book called Rock and Sand and it's an Orthodox critique of the Protestant Reformation and it's an introduction to to holy orthodoxy.

[00:37:15]I would encourage you to read that book.

[00:37:18]Listen to Father Josiah Trenum's interviews. If you think it's so interesting that this one single guy, this one Orthodox priest who became a Protestant. If that story is so fascinating, why not read the scores of stories and testimonies of former Presbyterians who have become Orthodox?

[00:37:42]Why not? You think they don't know what this guy is saying right here? You think they missed this one?

[00:37:49]You see, the reality is is that there's a fear because I know it because I lived it. I was a Calvinist for many years.

[00:37:56]There's a fear that I think is very unique to the reformed Christians because they think they've got it all figured out. They talk about, you know, systematic theologies later in this video.

[00:38:11]Reformed are classic, notorious for believing they have it right. It's all about doctrine. We have the best doctrine.

[00:38:20]We have the best sotiology.

[00:38:23]We have the best ecclesiology.

[00:38:25]We have the five solas. Right? All these things. They're petrified that they got it wrong because they've placed such an importance on theology. They've placed such an importance on intellectual ascent to the truth, to what they believe is the truth. They're terrified that they might have actually made a mistake, that they got it wrong. And it's why they're not even willing to look at Orthodox critiques of reformed Presbyterianism or Lutheranism, etc. And yet I want you to see here clearly I am not afraid to confront these issues whatsoever. Thanks be to God.

[00:39:15]Why?

[00:39:16]Because the Orthodox Church has a claim that no other body can make. No Roman Catholics can't make it and all Protestant bodies cannot make it. And all of course you know all the heretical Muslims and all the other groups they cannot make it. It is only within the ancient apostolic orthodox church that you have any claim to be the visible church on earth. Now does that mean that there's no hope for salvation outside of the church?

[00:39:49]Of course not. Orthodox are very clear from the top to the bottom.

[00:39:55]God can do anything. God is merciful. We see time and time again examples of where people outside of you would say the visible body of the church are saved and are used powerfully by God.

[00:40:12]So this is not a matter of salvation even though they want to try to draw that distinction.

[00:40:18]This is a matter of the practice of the faith, the fullness of the faith, of being part of the visible body on earth, part of that same protective Holy Spirit-led visible administrative function and role of preserving the scriptures and the interpretation of those scriptures for 2,000 years.

[00:40:40]Gavin Ortland and this gentleman, the author of this book, Joshua, cannot make the same claim. Period. problem I see is getting people to take it seriously. Um, they don't understand that they're blood earnest about these cannons when they make them. And people will say, "Oh, well, it was contextualized. This has to do, you know, I mean, you have to understand how it was back then." And it's like the statements still stand to and say what they say and mean what they say. So, they either mean it or they don't. And the other escape hatch that people have is this. I would distinguish between free iconadullia and forced iconadullia. Um usually when you go into an orthodox church and the priest talks to you, oh hey, I'm curious. I'm inquiring. I'd like to know more about it. And then the local priest um who probably hasn't studied and I see it too carefully um and has probably heard, oh the iconoclasts were very mean and very cruel people and they did awful things, which is probably true. Um and then they'll frame it as we get to it's it's a free veneration. We we're free to do it, but that's not what the actual council says. It's forced. It's actually a forcing of the affections. And so the fact to to me that so deeply betrays the spirit of the gospel.

[00:42:05]>> You see, he betrays the spirit of the gospel. He's already beginning to hint on the fact that he believes probably the gospel has been lost in orthodoxy.

[00:42:14]So he draws out this iconia and he's trying to claim you know Nika 2 in some way forces right uh the veneration of icons outside of Christianity. This is before, keep in mind, this is before the great schism.

[00:42:33]So there was one Christian church on earth that had this practice upheld. And this is a practice again affirmed by every ancient apostolic Christian church on earth. And it's been unchanged for 2,000 years.

[00:42:50]But these Protestants want to come along and say because of the strong language in these cannons, oh, you're you would force us, right? You would force us uh to uh venerate the icons.

[00:43:06]Simply and totally false.

[00:43:09]Go to any Orthodox church on earth right now.

[00:43:16]visit, be part of the services and see if you are forced to venerate an icon or to show affection to the icon. You're not. You don't have to. I've known people who for years as they are coming into orthodoxy do not do so because they're not ready yet. It takes time sometimes.

[00:43:42]So, this is absolute hogwash.

[00:43:45]And he knows it because even as as a when he was an Orthodox priest, he knows he wasn't forcing people uh to force their um affections for icons. What does Nika 2 claim? Nika 2 proclaims clearly that this is a unchanging part of the Christian practice.

[00:44:06]That's what it affirms. It's why we call it the triumph of orthodoxy.

[00:44:10]at orthodoxy over schismatic teachings which have been in the church sometimes in large large numbers as we know from the first council of Nika and the first council of Constantinople the church has dealt with heresies many times over but that's the beauty of orthodoxy he's going to say later oh orthodoxy doesn't have a mechanism to correct itself what did you not understand Aras and that heresy netorius and how the church absolutely corrects itself because those were movements that were large and and grew rapidly within the church.

[00:44:56]Lord have mercy upon us all.

[00:45:00]So this idea that he wants to take the strong language of Nika 2 and use it against Orthodox today is the same type of argument that when I pointed out earlier when I was quoting the London Baptist confession and how it says that the Lutheran view of the Eucharist is repugnant and you know lacks common sense and good reason and leads to idolatry.

[00:45:30]He's going to say, "Ah, you know, no, no, no, no. I'm friends with Gavin Orland. We all get along.

[00:45:37]We're all Christian brothers. We believe in the invisible church."

[00:45:40]>> Up to where these hymns are coming from in the 7th, 8th, 9th century. Now, she is the propitiation for the whole world.

[00:45:48]She's she's the one who we have to go to and in order to get to Jesus.

[00:45:53]>> Yes. And what I'll what why don't I uh read uh one or two examples from your book of uh this is from a collection of 9th century prayers that you've drawn attention to and I want to read these and then ask you to comment on these uh in terms of are these representative or are they exceptional or something like this and I'll set it up like this. One of the arguments you hear to defend marology among Catholic or Orthodox Christians is this uh uh it's a both hand. It's not Mary displacing Jesus.

[00:46:27]Mary just leads us more into the heart of Jesus. Um it's like the sun and the moon. You know, Jesus is the son. He's reflecting off Mary the moon. This this way of thinking, this both end way of thinking. And as one who wants to treat Mary with honor and respect as a great woman of God, that that's not the where this is coming from. We don't hate Mary as some were accused. It's not that at all. And we want to honor uh what God did through Mary in the incarnation. I have to say that I'm convinced in my conscience that these prayers and the general role of Mary in these traditions doesn't really fly by the whole bothand way of thinking because particular sotiological roles are given to Mary that belong exclusively to Christ and uh in in western prayers that you'll find you'll find basically the prayer is Mary propitiate Jesus propitiate your son and so >> I want you to notice very clearly Gavin Orland just made a shift. He was talking about orthodoxy but then to make the actual argument of this propitiation taking the place of he went to the west.

[00:47:38]Okay, he went to Roman Catholic marology to attack. Even Orthodox Christians believe that Rome has taken too far marology.

[00:47:49]So be careful of the subtle move going on here. We'll get back to the orthodox stuff and that's fine. I'm happy to talk about it, but just please understand what just took place there.

[00:47:59]>> We're saying, wait a second, that's not a both end. That that's Mary playing the role toward Jesus that the gospel teaches us Jesus played toward the father and has already been done at Calvary. So, here's an example uh from page 76 of your book. One of the prayers says, "I do not dare to draw near with boldness to your son, but instead I pray to you that I might obtain salvation through your intercessions to him."

[00:48:26]Listen closely to what he just read there. Okay? That is in no way saying anything that these two gentlemen are trying to make it out to be. It is a prayer of humility, right? a prayer saying I can't even approach Christ in you know hopefully prayerfully in humility and so he comes to Christ's mother right cuz Christ is God Christ is holy Christ is one right these are this is the understanding in which this prayer is prayed and so then he asks for her supplications her prayers nothing wrong with this to what? So that Christ may save the prayer the prayerful person's soul. This is a prayer for the grace and mercy of Christ through what? Through the intercessions of the Theotocos through the prayers of the mother of God. But you see, they don't like the language. Let's go on. Do not allow the dark power to seize me and cast me into the depths of Hades. Grant that the just judge should look upon me favorably.

[00:49:43]Uh deliver me from the eternal fire, for you are the only helper of mankind.

[00:49:48]>> Okay, so this has been brought up many times before, for you're the only helper of mankind. As if um you know, Orthodox believe that Mary is our only hope. We know from crystalclear orthodox teaching and practice that no man comes to the father but through Christ that salvation is of grace from God through faith worked out in love and is a beautiful understanding of God and God's relationship with his creation of which Mary is one.

[00:50:26]The Orthodox do not believe that our only hope is Mary.

[00:50:32]We know this clearly from our actual doctrinal theological teaching and practice. So then knowing with crystal clarity that Christ alone is God and Christ is our only hope once and for all and forever. What do we do with a hymn, a poetic prayer that says, "Help me. You're my only hope."

[00:51:03]This is to be understood as it is. As someone would say, if I was falling off, I slipped and fell off a cliff and I'm have a quick second, you know, help me to my wife. You're my only hope. Do I really mean that she's my only hope? No, I'm saying in this moment, help me. As Paul says in the New Testament, imitate me, Paul, as I imitate Christ. Does that mean we don't imitate Christ first? No. Paul says, imitate me.

[00:51:39]It doesn't mean he's replacing Christ.

[00:51:41]The Theotocos doesn't replace Christ.

[00:51:44]She's not our only hope in an ontological doctrinal sense, but rather someone coming in humility can fall before on their face and on their hands and knees to pray to God, asking the mother of God who's in the presence of Christ, who's in the presence of God for her prayers, for her intercessions, for her help. That's what these are.

[00:52:11]These are colloquial poetic expressions of love and of honor and of hope that the saints of the church are there before the throne of God praying on our behalf and it's we're asking for that intercession. That's what's going on here. This is not like a doctrinal shift so that all of a sudden, oh my gosh, Orthodox believe that Mary is uh salvific. No.

[00:52:39]Have Roman Catholics maybe gone that far and gone too far? Maybe. So that's another conversation.

[00:52:45]>> Another one from page 77. Through your pure and acceptable supplications, persuade the righteous judge to have compassion upon me.

[00:52:52]>> Just hear what he said. Through your supplications, in other words, Mary, through your prayers, right? May may Christ have mercy upon me >> for you are his mother. Open up for me the compassionate heart of your mercenal merciful son and beseech him to overlook my transgressions.

[00:53:13]Well, >> again and again and again, what was said there? Beseech your son. We're asking Mary to pray for us. Pray, you know, beseech your son to have mercy upon us.

[00:53:27]This is amazing that they want to point this as being uh problematic. That sure sounds like it's saying Mary has to propitiate Jesus. That I I app.

[00:53:38]>> Did you hear his conclusion that Mary has to propitiate Jesus from this prayer which as I said we're talking about a translation of a poetical uh hymn, a prayer that's intended to be um used in everyday, you know, life. In other words, it's not written as proclaiming doctrine, right? This is not a a decree and canon of the church, right? This is not didactic in the sense of describing an onlogical reality reality in the new sotiology of orthodoxy. No, because again, why? because we know crystal clearly what orthodoxy teaches when it comes to salvation and sotiology.

[00:54:32]And in that beautiful, wonderful historical context, you can have prayers like this that are beautifully, artfully, colloquially using language and terms that obviously in even in and of themselves are speaking from a very human perspective, right? A very human standpoint. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:54:59]But when people get dissatisfied at the local level, what do they do? They go, "Well, I'm going to I'm going to start reading and they find Athanasius, they find Gregory of Nazanzas, they find all of these people, then they're going to go to Dimmitri Stanaloya. They're going to look at his dogmatic theology or they're going to look at Michael Pomanski. They're going to look and they're going to find this kind of like idealized picture. And then they create this idealized picture. They get very excited. They come from a bad church.

[00:55:25]Everybody knows that there's there's tears among the wheat. So they go into this local or orthodox parish with kid gloves.

[00:55:34]>> Absolutely amazing, right? They're just they're just speaking anecdotally, right? They're just speaking in a self-serving manner. Okay. It is self-serving for them to think that people that come to orthodoxy out of Protestantism, oh, we're just treating Orthodoxy with kid gloves. Are you kidding me? It took me three years to convert to orthodoxy out of my Calvinistic Presbyterianism.

[00:56:02]I was so died in the wool. I was so staunchly Presbyterian Calvinistic.

[00:56:10]I was abhorently opposed to orthodoxy from my Protestant perspective. And see, that's the issue. these gentlemen right here. And I said this at the outset of this video. This is a video. And look, do not be fooled. This is a video from the perspective of two Protestants, a perspective of two reformed Protestants to that point who still can't agree. Right? But but this perspective here is in no way and I don't even think they intended it to be to be some sort of objective analysis, some fair charitable, you know, survey of orthodoxy. No, this is a critique. This is an attack of orthodox teaching and practice by two Protestants.

[00:57:07]And so from that, this is what you get.

[00:57:11]You get statements like, "Yeah, sure.

[00:57:13]People leave Protestantism and then they go treat orthodoxy with kids gloves." In other words, they just, you know, they've been fooled, right? They they fooled themselves to thinking that Orthodoxy was better. How silly. How superficial, right? These conversions are much, much deeper than this. Most Orthodox catechisms of these converts coming over, they're as long as a year or more, many, many months of learning and and understanding what Orthodox teach and practice, being part of the community, and they say, "Oh, well, of course, nobody's perfect." But they have this idealized image that allows them to kind of work through all of those problems that every single parish has and kind of excuse them. But then they use the bad experiences that they had in their previous evangelical or Protestant parish and say, "See, that's just evidence that it's all wrong." But that same process can work in both directions where someone can grow up in a in an Orthodox parish that they never heard the gospel in their life. They never, you know, this, this, this, there was bad actions here, bad actors there.

[00:58:22]>> What he just described simply does not happen. One cannot be raised in the Orthodox church and not hear the gospel.

[00:58:32]The gospel is proclaimed every divine liturgy more than once.

[00:58:39]And that's just one service throughout the week. So, it is utter, excuse me, it is utter hogwash that one could be raised in the Orthodox church and somehow not know the gospel.

[00:58:55]Give me a break.

[00:58:58]This is where Protestants, and I've used to do this myself as a Protestant, they believe that they're the ones that hold on to the real gospel. They understand the real gospel, right? Why? Well, because from their you know Calvinistic or in this guy's case l you know in their Lutheran view of solid solar gracia right solar scriptor they believe that they have it figured out.

[00:59:28]Do not be deceived. These gentlemen believe they have Christianity figured out.

[00:59:34]They believe that they understand what the real gospel is and they're right now questioning whether the Orthodox have it at all.

[00:59:46]That is the hubris of Protestantism. Whereas Orthodox, ironically, even though we know where the one true church is, where the one visible church on earth is, as I said, the ancient apostolic orthodox church, there is the faith that's preserved in its fullness. But we understand completely and totally that the gospel is and can be preached in many places all over the world, even outside the church. and how God uses that to save souls, to pull people out of schismatic churches and call them to himself 100%.

[01:00:28]Happens all the time.

[01:00:31]So you see it's within orthodoxy where you can have the full teaching preserved of Christianity and you have room for these schismatic groups which have sadly and unfortunately broken away from the one church.

[01:00:51]And yet we can account for that because why? Because God is merciful and gracious and just to forgive. And he he calls us in love, right? And he wills that no man should die but rather should turn right from their sin and be saved.

[01:01:06]Right? This is our God. Our God is an awesome God. Our God is merciful and gracious and he loves us and he created each and every one of us to bring him to himself as Paul says, right? We as part of the church, we've been predestined before the foundations of the world to what? to be conformed to his likeness. This is the call of all of us.

[01:01:34]Even these two gentlemen here who have been so um unfriendly to orthodoxy.

[01:01:42]I would call them to compassion, to understanding, to have a bit more respect for this body that they so decry, but has somehow even though this guy says they don't even have a clear ecclesiology in orthodoxy, somehow we've preserved unonymity throughout the church on all of the practices and teachings of the Christian faith from who God is and how he's to be described to the sacraments of the church to the means of salvation and grace.

[01:02:24]>> You know, in the in the Dutch reformed or in just the reformed traditions in general, you have confessions. And in those confessions, you have a clear statement of what their ecclesiology is.

[01:02:34]>> Notice he's talking about the reformed churches. Only in the reformed churches, right, do you have these confessions?

[01:02:41]Most of the other church bodies, they don't have confessions, right? When's the last evangelical church you've been to where they have a confession? When's the last non-denominational church you've been a part of that has confession? Go show me the Methodist confession.

[01:02:56]Right? He's being very, very selective.

[01:03:01]But you don't have a clear ecclesiology unless you start ransacking Nika 2 and all of the various cannons and the can and the council of 1672. There's no clear statement of ecclesiology in the Orthodox church. clear statements of some of these Protestant groups that he's referring to have defined their ecclesiology such that it excludes other Protestant groups from an actual legitimate ecclesiology, including these two individuals right here.

[01:03:36]According to Joshua's ecclesiology from the Augsburg confession, what Gavin Ortland is practicing in his church as a reformed Baptist does not fulfill the calling of what a church is.

[01:03:54]Why? Because he does not rightly administer the sacraments. He doesn't even name the sacraments. Right?

[01:04:02]Reformed Baptists don't even call baptism a sacrament. Right? It's an ordinance and the Eucharist is merely a symbol.

[01:04:11]It's an ordinance.

[01:04:15]They do not agree. So, I'm sorry that he Joshua thinks that orthodoxy don't have, you know, a clear what he calls an ecclesiology.

[01:04:28]That's not true. But even if it was true, I'll take that over this nonsense any day.

[01:04:35]>> That allows us to affirm, yes, I can uh this is a an important enough issue that it becomes like a we couldn't share the same uh church body necessarily, but that doesn't mean I think you're outside of the church itself as the mystical body of Christ. But >> there it was, right? We can't share the same space, you know, but we're still buddies, right?

[01:05:00]>> You know, we have to we baptize infants and and you baptize um people upon profession of faith and we just can't really work out the pastoral kind of issues that might become complicated through that. So you guys can work that out. It's a serious scriptural affirmation. We work it out this way.

[01:05:18]It's a serious scriptural affirmation.

[01:05:20]But at the same time, we recognize that there is a basic brotherhood. Even >> there is a basic brotherhood, right? It makes that to be utterly facious. It makes that to be laughable.

[01:05:35]Oh, you know, we can't go to church together and you know, I can't take, you know, you can't take communion at my church, but but boy oh boy, we're one in Christ.

[01:05:45]Give me a break.

[01:05:50]Brothers and sisters, I do encourage you to watch this video. Like I said, it's an hour long. It's a lot to get through.

[01:05:57]Um, I hope that, um, you know, I was faithful in covering at least the major points that they that they make. I'm happy to respond to more. Let me know.

[01:06:05]I'd be happy to do so. Um, but the bottom line is, ladies and gentlemen, is that humans are messy. We know even from the pages of the New Testament that there were problems in the church, right? We know Paul writing first Corinthians to correct people who are, you know, getting things wrong, right? Sin gets in the way. And we know at the same time that a real church, an actual church was established. Why?

[01:06:37]Because St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, Clement, uh, you know, Barnabas, these first century writers testify to this church. It was there. It was real. Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, they describe the church. They describe the actual practices of the church. We know from history that these things were believed. Things that these two gentlemen don't even agree on. the church proclaimed even from those earliest of times and it does still today and they cannot make that same claim.

[01:07:17]That is the call of orthodoxy. That is why orthodox Christians can say generally and in a very real sense that it's unchanged. It is the faith on earth. It is the Christian church has been preserved by the grace and preservation and providential care of God through his people sinful and weward as we are.

[01:07:44]Lord have mercy upon us all. My name is Jeremy Jeremiah, chief of sinners.

[01:07:50]I pray for these individuals. I've actually been in a Orthodox church with Dr. Gavin Ortland.

[01:07:58]I was happened to be at a conference that he was part of and he came to the Orthodox church. I pray that he finds holy Orthodoxy. I pray that this weward priest who has gone into the Lutheran church, I pray that he can find some room in his mind and in his heart for the faith that he left behind.

[01:08:20]Does this mean that I question their salvation as they seem to question whether orthodoxy teaches the gospel?

[01:08:26]No.

[01:08:27]Why? Because I believe in a gracious God with whom all things or through whom all things are possible.

[01:08:35]The mercy and grace of God is way outside of my finite brain.

[01:08:45]God bless you. I love you. Thank you for being here. Until the next one.

[01:08:51]Bye-bye. Christ is risen.