Serious Frivolities: From Vogel to Vogue

[00:00:00]Welcome to part two of serious frivolities at show studio. I'm Judith Watt. I'm here with Robin Mure and it's all about the Gazette de Bontton Lucian Vogle and Vogue in this program. So, it's from Vogal to Vogue.

[00:00:29]>> Well, should we start with Lucian? I call him Lucian Vogel.

[00:00:32]>> Yeah.

[00:00:33]>> He may well be Lucian Voel.

[00:00:35]>> Yes.

[00:00:36]>> But what we do know about him, and you correct me if I'm wrong, is that he is German. Jewish.

[00:00:42]>> His father, Herman, was a satist.

[00:00:46]>> Yes. who fled who fled fled Germany after the unification of Germany because he was Yeah. in and he came to Paris in 1879. He apparently fled Germany because he kept having, wait for it, duels with the Prussian police >> as you do.

[00:01:03]>> So there's dueling scars. But I guess the fact that we know he's a satist and I guess he was a satist for magazines.

[00:01:12]>> Yes. Was it something called B? Yes.

[00:01:15]>> Can we infer from that that this is where Lucian >> gets his early start in magazines or this is instilled in him?

[00:01:23]>> We can work out from that two things.

[00:01:26]Number one, Herman Vogle was an illustrator. He's very good illustrator as well and that is something that I think really influenced Lucy and I think that's really important. When you look at these, you can see I mean a lot of them are like children's stories. The illustrations just bring everything alive. You want to look at the pictures, not the words. But also certainly the political background was really important. And as one goes through Lucian Vogel's career, you know, it's it is a split between fashion magazines or artists in fashion and then of course politics. The reason this picture here is interesting >> is because it's by Herman by by Vogle.

[00:02:06]It's an anti- authority cartoon.

[00:02:09]>> Certainly is. whereby the authoritative figures holding the you know the blah blah blah blah blah and what's really interesting in the way that one could connect all these things is this mild little illustration which was very subversive then inspired the Lumiere brothers to create their first film >> good grief I didn't know that >> yeah which everyone thought with the spring sprinkled which everyone thought was incredibly funny >> of course you can see the the parallels yeah >> you can see where Jacqu Taty got his um absurdest This goes back to a Vogle.

[00:02:41]>> Isn't that funny? Honestly, >> I know. Isn't it exciting?

[00:02:43]>> So good.

[00:02:44]>> So, >> and we love Vogle. I'll tell you what I love Vogle so much is that he really is the first to think that fashion could be a branch of the fine art and by commissioning these wonderful illustrations these posh illustrations for the magazine that we're going to come on to Gazette Dub Bong. You can see that in practice. Yes. And a par at a parallel time, a sort of symbiotic contemporaneous time, Condinast, the man is doing is thinking exactly that for when he's wanting to create his own fashion magazine, which of course becomes Vogue. What was happening in Paris at the time was that the art because the art world was so exploding in Paris which is kind of everybody knows about but the idea and I've talked about it before was how do we how do we make this really interesting? There's all this extraordinary very contemporary work going on and fashion is looking really just dull and part of the old century.

[00:03:49]It's 1909. It's not not even 10 years into so what what are we going to do?

[00:03:53]And Puare apparently approached Lucen Vogle. which you can wind back on the Lucian Vogel in which would have been 1907 1908 >> when Lucen Vogle become editor-inchief of Art and Decoration magazine >> knew everybody married cassette to Bruno doing publicity material for the Diagle and the Russian ballet and he said I'm looking I think you know what what am I going to do and as I understand it Lucien I'll call him Lucian Bogle Lucian said I think you should get an artist to illustrate it I mean there are so many out there darling you know you know that and you love it and let's try it and uh so Poris said marvelous marvelous who should I have and Vogle it seems to me from my research says I know somebody he works for my father at lassiet deber so he gets a satist in >> to illustrate >> what an extraordinary yes exactly >> isn't that genius but and also >> when you look at those those pore that revolutionary pore 1908 album it's which is it has so many references to Davidid and the direto etc but the great modernity of it as well >> but how clever to think of getting somebody that isn't involved [clears throat] in the fashion world to come and make your first fashion illustrations so they come fresh to the market in a way they have no preconceptions they're not involved in the world they're not sort of in anybody's pay and being a satist they've got this sort of eye which can make for telling detail and just teach her on the right edge of taste. Sometimes >> there's a great deal of modernity, but there's also I mean I think what makes Lucien be able to speak business-wise to cond it sounds like when you look at he's written about by certainly Edna Wman Chase as a kind of fluffy buffoon. Oh no goodness you know no no no as hell there are two things well more things about condas which is very important he is very very keen on the way his magazine looks obviously and very involved in that the aesthetics of it are very very important much as Lucian is obviously with Bon and later VU and so on >> but Ki never forgets that there is such a thing as >> it is the fashion business and it's all about generating money it's about making money for everybody advertisers blahy blah blah and also being a >> press baron mon making money for himself because that's what it's all about. It's about making and that's all that Condinas has ever really been able to do is to is to make money through publishing and when he applies all the instincts of things he he thinks is going to work for Vogue bringing in fashion state-of-the-art printing better paper quality all these things which is an expense come together and they make this incredible magazine which within 18 months of him buying it the advertising revenue has gone up 90,000 and circulation has shot through the roof.

[00:07:02]But he and Lucian share so many the same ideals as said before. It's all about bringing fashion in making fashion serious. Yes, it's a frivolous world. We know that. But making it serious, trying to turn it into a branch of the fine arts.

[00:07:15]>> Getting it the respect that these wonderful couti like Parare Duce Worth deserve.

[00:07:22]>> Yeah.

[00:07:22]>> Because these are these things are well, they're works of art as we know from the VNA and all the fashion exhibitions.

[00:07:27]It's a it's a very it's a very interesting kind of spid's web because with uh with Lucien producing the bon that the the story that he does for art and decoration with Edward Stiken for example >> the genesis they say of fashion photography.

[00:07:44]>> Yeah the that was >> and styum drag kicking and screaming into that studio. I mean he didn't want anything to do that rireed of commerce in any way. He's a pictorialist. He's a he's a he's trying to make photo turn photography into >> art and here he's been dragged into to do some sort of >> very clever of able to do that very clever because the artist said exactly the same thing. They didn't want to do it either. It seems he mad and and he said well you'll get paid.

[00:08:10]>> Yeah. Exactly. And the great thing I love about Bonton though is that if you look at the cover of Bontton there is no pretends to anything other than art mode frivolity. you know, you exalt in what it is. Yeah. And also, can I just actually point out I'm fascinated the fact Judith that we have >> we don't have New York, Rome, Milan, Paris. We have New York, St. Petersburg, Berlin and Buenazaris.

[00:08:36]>> And Buenazar has always intrigued me.

[00:08:37]It's you know who on earth thought I mean you know stand corrected in so many levels. Who on earth thought that in 1914 Argentina was a sort of hub a cultural hub of fashion. And of course it was and and Pondinast's vision after creating American Vogue was to immediately think about doing a Vogue Argentina which he did find that fascinating.

[00:08:59]>> Oh it is amazing. So he did it for and it lasted of course it didn't actually last in the end because in the end Buenazaris wasn't the Paris of the sort of southern hemisphere after all and it only lasted a couple of years maybe 18 months but we have the bound I think we've got the summer well basically it's a copy of American Vogue but for the Latin American or sort of South American I beg you pardon uh market and it also has again we've got Berlin here it also has an ill- fated adventure in Germany as well I think in the 20s which sort of works for a and then it stops. The only ones that really work immediately are British Vogue in 1916 and again with the help of Luc Vogle Parispogue in 1920.

[00:09:41]>> The publisher was Emil Levy.

[00:09:44]>> Right.

[00:09:44]>> So while Lucen was thinking about be nice to do a fashion magazine with artists, no one's tapped into that yet.

[00:09:52]He was obviously working Emil Levy was his boss at Art and Decoration magazine.

[00:09:57]At the same time, Paul Cornu, >> the curator at Muse Desert Decorative was putting together Duce's collection of gallery demode, all those fashion plates and reproducing them.

[00:10:12]>> So, this is the genesis of >> and and Vogle will have seen these seen that it's a big orgasm >> and this is them really doing everything they possibly can to turn fashion and the depiction of fashion into, as I keep saying, a branch of the fine arts. They really get its importance >> with its root in Fr in French culture.

[00:10:30]>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:31]>> And you know very very I mean it's so solid this it's not flaky.

[00:10:36]>> Yeah. Also looking at this again I didn't realize that it was the Heineman publishing group that published Bonong.

[00:10:41]So he's going straight for book publishers in a sense. He's not going to some sort of thing. These are books. These are works of art themselves.

[00:10:50]>> These are books. And I mean that's what's what's happened with the way they're seen now. They're just they're ephemeran because most of them are just I won't say just the fashion relates because fashion plates are amazing but that's what's happened these they were seen as you know collectors objects biblop files etc women of fashion etc >> and what we were saying earlier is that it's very rare to find a copy of Bongton that is complete um because people took those beautiful poshwar prints out and they wanted they could >> have a bit of Paris couture on their wall if they wanted and of course You know, far from being precious about it, Vogle completely understood that and really wanted them to take it apart and to treat them like like the artworks that they are.

[00:11:31]>> But it was so egalitarian.

[00:11:33]>> So egalitarian completely. Everybody could have a slice of Parisian >> and it was in in in London. It was it was it was4 a year. That's expensive.

[00:11:43]>> That's expensive. It's not that expensive because I've been looking up.

[00:11:45]It's I mean obviously it's blood. I heard later on as we approached the sort of second wave of Bong maybe in the 20s that the subscription I don't know where I read this it was the same it was advertised at the same price as a decent secondhand car [laughter] was >> yeah I don't I mean I hope I haven't invented that I think I did read [laughter] that somewhere that's quite extraord I think it is true I mean no reason to think it wouldn't be true but again that that raises another thing is the cost of producing these things is enormous.

[00:12:17]>> Yes.

[00:12:18]>> And I know we're slightly ahead of ourselves, but when Lucien Vogle and Condinast team up in 1920, >> no, 1915. 195. So those two special issues.

[00:12:30]>> Two specials. You're quite right. But in earnest in 1920 1920, yes.

[00:12:34]>> Condinas by now has this state-of-the-art printing press outside in Greenwich, Connecticut. So he's it's like a machine. and he's able to make these things, beautiful things relatively cheaply because all the infrastructure is there. So >> it's it's one of the first of British Vogue and this illustration is by Sh Leat because one of the things when the first world war started in August 19 um >> August 1914 and everything literally just went to pieces and on so many levels. Uh that is really when when condas I think stepped in and the artists of course uh Lucen Vogle was still trying the Gazette de Bontton stopped in in August 1914 but the artists he said to all the artists went and got freelance work in particular for Vogue and that's really when the change happens I think you know those opportunity and they just by late 1915 they're in there working for >> Vogue cond is nothing nothing he's an opportunity in the nicest possible he sees an opening and he takes it. So he saw that these gazette deontton artists whom he has loved for ages and ages and ages are going to be without work and it's the perfect time to swoop in and grab them. Who would have guessed that something as insubstantial, something as ephemereral, something as fragile as a magazine, >> thinking of American Vogue would shape American taste in art, in music, in cuisine, in architecture, in literature.

[00:14:07]I mean, it's not just Vogue, but these magazines had a real impact in those days. And these hundreds of thousands of copies were were sold.

[00:14:16]>> But but I Yes.

[00:14:18]And I I absolutely and I mean that's the great thing about cond Nass and Vogue was the idea of international cafe society you know [clears throat] I mean you've just done that fantastic beaten exhibition at the national portrait gallery I mean this explosion that happened after the war with a generation born in 1900 or 1903 that had had escaped it and of course the mania after the devastation of the war and the flu epidemic worldwide flu you know people just wanted to party and celebrate being alive and having fun and but a lot of the taboos that were broken in the 1920s were being broken in the pages of >> you look at those prints in Bonto those plates plates that you can take out and put on your wall >> poshwar prints >> yes >> what's the process >> phwar printing is basically stencil printing and it goes back to the 15th century European but it is also >> goodenberg bible time >> yes But it's also being practiced in Japan.

[00:15:20]1902, another yet another Japanese print exhibition. They have one basically every year in Paris. So that's very very important in terms of the design. That's a whole different area. So what you do is you get the artist to do a drawing and they color it in all this. I saw this in Paris for the um robe deare really rough. This is it. And that that is then worked up by the artist and then it is given to a printer >> and they break it down bit by bit by bit by bit. So every tiny bit of it has a different stencil every >> So the artist is involved the whole and signs it off at the end >> and comes back to it and back to and reworks it.

[00:16:06]>> Aerfeld collecting all the Pap watercolors. You see these loose watercolors and but this is divine. So every single like little bit like that.

[00:16:14]So they're doing that up to you know 30 they can do 30 pressings for each little bit. Wait for it. That's for every single print in the 2,000 [music] magazines.

[00:16:26]>> So you are getting really a fantastic art. And so that's why it's so expensive.

[00:16:31]>> This is why it costs quality costs.

[00:16:34]Costality cost.

[00:16:35]>> It does.

[00:16:36]>> It is the yellow's so good. Sounds like divine antiques road show quality costs.

[00:16:41]>> Yeah, >> vlog it. Um, but it is extraordinary the amount of work that goes into it and again which I I keep stressing this is meant to be an ephemeral >> insubstantial item. It's a magazine. The Contin knew that Vogue I I don't say this about Gazette Devontto, but he knew that Vogue would be read >> once a week. Yes. Yes, >> another one comes along >> a Fortnite later and the other one's consigned to the bin technically or or the attic maybe, but um you know magazines were he knew they were disposable and which was a good thing because he wanted the everything to be new new new new. He didn't want to sort of hop back to previous issues if you like. So everything had to go forward a >> absolutely the thing about this is such a work of love.

[00:17:25]>> Yeah. And Vogle was an obsessive perfectionist made so by his father. He had to leave he had to leave the cold de bzar where he was studying architecture in when he was 17. He just got there >> because his father became paralyzed and he had to go and earn money for the whole family. So that's how he started working at Hashet. That's how it started. But he had learned from you know standing his father you know that high about layout. Yeah.

[00:17:55]>> And he was and that's as far as he's concerned. Hun, you're getting a bloody good package. Don't chuck it away.

[00:18:02]There's no doubt that Vogle was a an absolute perfectionist.

[00:18:07]>> No, completely as was condens.

[00:18:13]>> Exactly. Yeah.

[00:18:14]>> They loved it.

[00:18:16]>> They absolutely loved it. Isn't it great? And I, you know, I love them both.

[00:18:20]>> I know. And tell me because you know a little bit about what because Bontton closes in 1920 1925. So um >> I want to know what happens to Vogal Lucia after that.

[00:18:33]>> Okay. So 19 he's already start well he's started setting up Vogue Paris >> with condai >> yeah with condai and um cassette becomes the first fashion editor and of course the young sidekick Michelle Bruno divine Michelle de Brunoff is is putting it together I mean it's very you know this the great character you know >> um they're putting it together and he um >> and Michelle eventually becomes editor doesn't he >> absolutely and saves the couture along with Lucy Absolutely. We're going ahead of ourselves. But do you know also that for one moment it was also when Dorothy Todd, was it Dorothy Todd or somebody else? One of the editors had to go, Michelle Brunoff stepped in and edited a few issues of British vote. Did you know that? I did. I did know that.

[00:19:17]>> I want to know what happens to him. He goes closes.

[00:19:20]>> When Bon closes, he starts publishing uh art books with Leap etc. So he does all these fantastic series of art.

[00:19:28]>> Can you still get them? Are they available? Can you see?

[00:19:30]>> Yes, you can. You could you could find them [clears throat] but they and they were but they were basically this you know high quality art books and publishers bar etc etc and then >> so it brings everything is learned on magazines.

[00:19:42]Yes that's true. [clears throat] And then he starts to think hang on a minute I want to be a photographer. I like photography. What I did in Morocco was really good. I loved it. And he becomes basically the kind of socialism with the changing face of you know 1926 general strike in England. That's when he begins to say, >> and it's interesting that I'm sure he hasn't washed his hands of fashion illustration, but he can see that photography is going to be the way that you talk to the mass market. So, Lucen starts this proto photojournalist magazine called VU.

[00:20:15]>> Yes, he does. He in in between 1926 and 1927, he goes to be art director, artistic director at uh French V. Yeah.

[00:20:24]Um, so there's that that one interlude having set it up, but he basically thinks no, >> he wants to be in charge.

[00:20:30]>> He wants to be in char. Thank you. Yeah, that's he wants to be the boss. And also he's become very very interested in photography and photography is getting better and better and better, isn't it?

[00:20:40]>> Smaller format cameras.

[00:20:41]>> Yes. Which really helps. 35 mil film I guess. Uh the early Well, this is slightly pre No, I think Leers are around at this point, but anyway, there are small format cameras that they can use. And you see one of the progenitors of fashion photography who becomes a great fashion photographer himself is Martin Makshi that um Hungarian who starts off as a sports photographer high-speed film portable cameras >> you're able to take people in motion you're able to capture action and that's the beginning of photojournalism and it's interesting that Harper's Bizaarre take a sports journalist Martini Hungarian American sports journalist and turn him into a fashion photograph And that's the beginning of action realism, fashion in motion. You're capturing people running down the beach and so on.

[00:21:29]And you know, so I can exactly see where Lucenne is coming from. He realizes that this is the new this this this.

[00:21:35]>> It's really fun. The >> new then what fun they must have had.

[00:21:40]>> What fun they must have had. I mean, look immediately if you look at Monax's pictures, the world is it's a whole different world people. It's in motion.

[00:21:46]>> Fantastic. It's a world in >> I think that's that is the you know the level of excitement we're having now.

[00:21:53]Yeah.

[00:21:53]>> Um is why I think these all so relevant to today. But what I forgot to say um was that he had he and his um cassette were doing jaand demode >> of course.

[00:22:05]>> Yeah. So um that was >> which is more sort of lifestyle sort of >> lifestyle food gardening obviously. So we're talking good housekeeping.

[00:22:14]>> Yeah. So it's French. So obviously phrase French French [laughter] good food >> good food of course >> good food and um holding forth you know great food photography and all that but that button and drapes perfect that's how they make money.

[00:22:29]>> Jan Mode lasts I mean I'd slightly mock it sometimes I know what it's like later on. It's it's a bit sort of um anyway but it lasts a long time >> 96. It was closed down. No it was closed in 96.

[00:22:41]>> I thought I had no idea. Well that's Listen. What do I know about?

[00:22:46]>> So that's what he was doing. So that was bringing money in.

[00:22:48]>> Bringing money in. So tell me about VU because I find VU fascinating because it's uh one of the reasons that VU is important in my world is that one of the art directors hired is Alexander Lieberman.

[00:22:59]>> Tell me about it.

[00:23:00]>> Goes on to become >> And why did that happen?

[00:23:04]>> Judith, I feel you're going to tell me.

[00:23:06]>> I am going to tell you because his mother was having an affair with Lucien.

[00:23:09]>> Oh, you're >> No, that's it.

[00:23:12]No, she was she was shagging him.

[00:23:14]>> Are you telling me Lieieber was a Nepo baby?

[00:23:16]>> He was a Nepo baby.

[00:23:17]>> Well, there's the thing. Anyway, what what but honestly to launch that, you know, Lieberman's career was stratospheric and he did more than anybody else to turn Vogue into the magazine it is today. One thing I'm quite interested about, we we sort of touched on it earlier, is the influence and the the sort of Paul Parry effect on everything because I know that Vogel and him were Vel and him were were obviously um >> very close as well. No, they sparred because poor Pry, poor Paul Pory could not actually bear not being the initiator of everything course and you know I I don't know whether he was the >> Do you find that with fashion designers?

[00:23:57]>> I can't possibly comment. Um but anyway, so I couldn't possibly comment but he definitely wants to be the inventor of everything and the great progenitor >> and >> and that wonderful AAP cover where he's sitting in the the middle of it all with his name and lights above.

[00:24:12]>> Yeah. Amazing. I love him, but I bet he was bad in a sand pit.

[00:24:16]>> Oh god, completely. I know. But you >> you can just see it and dumping people as well.

[00:24:21]>> Sand castle down completely. But I mean it is >> there is I can't again I've read this somewhere else but apparently Vogue without puare at least once every fortnight was like seeing Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney without her headband.

[00:24:38]It was utterly inconceivable. The feeling was that the the magazine would sort of wither die and expire if Parry wasn't in it at least once every four months.

[00:24:45]>> But that because he was news I mean this is you know when Vogue talks well you know everything is about novelty you know novel that's a word that comes up throughout Vogue.

[00:24:54]>> It propels all magazines forward.

[00:24:56]>> Exactly. And that is what Empire was making stories all the time. He was so clever at it as a publicist.

[00:25:02]>> But also you you mentioned earlier and I'd love to hear more about it. this um idea that he gives this lecture or discourse to his claims something called in defense of fashion because fashion needs defending.

[00:25:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In defense of fashion.

[00:25:15]So uh I think it was published the whole speech was transcribed defense dilemmode uh salon dom and it was in September which has a fantastic illustration of two men whispering behind their their hands at a woman walking past who's in the height of fashion and he is very very angry by this time by 1920 lack of money not being taken seriously and basically Coco Chanel >> that's what I think and feeling that He's being superseded and he's no longer >> Is he right to think that?

[00:25:48]>> Yes, he's totally right. He's absolutely completely and utterly right and I think he's begun to lose his mojo and he's spending money like water but he but he really believes and this can be anything that a now that a designer would say but in it he talks about you know the problem with the French >> is that they are scared of fashion they fear it they don't understand it but they want it but they don't know why and they don't know how and he unpacks this theory about the bourgeoa attitude of the French which he doesn't but that kind of the conservatism of the French which he was flying >> in opposition with in terms of being a creator and an inventor and what Vogle has set him up with as is these designers are artists >> and so it's him against the industry this is about that and he's talking about all problems and you know how it's no good not buying clothes because you know you're going to miss the boat anyway. But what he talks about is he calls the fashion she and he feminizes her and say she's a she's a neurotic nervous type. She's very shy but she's also very brave because she's ahead of everybody else. Self >> projection going on as well.

[00:27:13]>> Yes. Yeah. But she has great courage and the she is the >> Parisian.

[00:27:20]>> Like in 1900 the the great exhibition you've got the Parisian huge figure dressed by Patan as La Parisian. That's it. And this magazine is full of Parisians. So is Vogue and they lead lead it. But he >> but in defense of fashion you if if you read it out today it might have some contemporary >> it's completely contemporary apart from the terrible waffling.

[00:27:47]>> Uh but no I mean because I I mean there's a lot the writing in in Gazette Dub Bon and sometimes writing in Vogue as well fashion writing leaves a great deal of sense aside.

[00:27:57]>> Yeah.

[00:27:58]>> Yeah. No. And which is why Dorothy Todd was so good at getting the great writing. [clears throat] But it's but it's also a fl a wonderful flavor, but in it the core of it is really intense and absolutely totally serious, very courageous and completely contemporary.

[00:28:13]>> And was it applauded at the time by his contemporary cul?

[00:28:18]>> Yeah, I should think so.

[00:28:19]>> Yeah, ought to.

[00:28:20]>> Yeah, >> it's a rally a claring a rallying cry.

[00:28:22]>> Yeah, it was a it was a it was a rallying cry, but it was to the audience.

[00:28:27]>> Yeah. of artists. I mean it was the kind of you know the alternative art show. So it was an art audience as well.

[00:28:33]Cultured, highly cultured.

[00:28:35]>> Going through my head is the fact that Vogle condrad other world. They're creating some kind of sometimes they create monsters. And I wonder whether >> what a little I know about Pare is that I know he was could be completely monstrous and it ricochets echoes down the century.

[00:29:00]>> It really really does.

[00:29:01]>> I mean when you were talking and again I'll digress only for a second when you're talking about Huare's difficulties blah blah blah financial and so on. I was thinking of your great Aussie Clark, you know, absolute genius who and it all went >> all went because because he can't because that because he knows what he can do and it's not looking after the cash till you and that's a a familiar story. So Quarries the end of Quarry in 1929 is not a >> unusual sign of things to come.

[00:29:28]>> Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:29:29]>> And I mean >> fashion business they need to know about business.

[00:29:33]>> Absolutely. And what's happened uh I mean why this is so contemporary is it's been so much you know in terms of education and certainly British fashion designers have all been art school be it's been an art form >> and you know the the fashion industry >> is not only I mean look at the queen it's not just about art it's about so it's such a contemporary story it's such a contemporary story >> yeah that's very very true but I think also listen one of the things I was going to say is I It's, you know, without wanting to have a sort of Timothy Shal Shame moment again, we are looking at something that has died fashion illustration, haven't we?

[00:30:13]>> I think we may. Well, >> well, no. Okay.

[00:30:17]>> Yeah. I'm going to qualify that by saying I have a great friend called David Dun who still produces the most beautiful.

[00:30:22]>> No, I don't think it's dead at all, but I think that people don't want to publish it. And I think that and and and because that I genuinely think is is is something because when you can do a photograph, you can put it on a screen, you can go like that with it. Do do but I but I don't but I I don't think that's what's important. I mean Julie Behovven Yeah.

[00:30:41]>> has just produced a fantastic book called Art School, which is the biggest sendup I have ever seen. It's positively crook Shanken. Oh gosh. It's one but that you know her illustrations and that and sat it's one it's very much still going >> and I guess I guess also that fashion designers I know Eve did it a lot and Carl did it but they they they still sketch their ideas first don't they?

[00:31:06]Yeah, some of them. Absolutely. No, loads of them do, >> you know, because that's the quickest way. Yeah, because they've been at art college.

[00:31:13]>> But there is illustration there somewhere.

[00:31:15]>> Yes, there is. But what I think is modern, I mean, I I I what is modern about it is the idea that yes, it is the fashion industry, but we're going to be bloody creative. And guess what? You're going to need us.

[00:31:27]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:27]>> And that is what you have here. And that's what Condas absolutely understood.