The Guyana Dialogue

本站添加: 2026-05-30

[00:00:14]Heat. Heat.

[00:00:45]Heat. Heat.

[00:01:00]Heat. Heat.

[00:01:26]Heat.

[00:01:34]Heat.

[00:01:56]Never let success get to your head.

[00:02:00]Never let failure get to your heart.

[00:02:03]Welcome to the Gyn Dialogue. I'm your host, Shmeza Ali. Our topic tonight is key insights into the Whismer Massacre of 1964.

[00:02:14]As reported in the newly published book, The Guyana Dialogue is being sponsored by a coordinating council of GY based in the US, UK, Canada, the Caribbean, and Guyana.

[00:02:28]Funding support is by well-known philanthropist Dave Narin from Dave West Indian Imports.

[00:02:35]Please welcome my moderator for tonight Dr. Tara Singh.

[00:02:39]>> Thank you very much um Shmesea and welcome to our viewers.

[00:02:44]>> Thank you Dr. Tara. Our panelist tonight is Dr. Sanjay Ramisoon and Dr. Vishnu Bisram will join us shortly. Our guest tonight is a political scientist and historian. Please welcome Professor Bour Ramharak.

[00:03:00]>> Thank you. Good evening.

[00:03:01]>> Good evening and welcome everyone. Good evening.

[00:03:05]>> Welcome. Um, thank you very much, Misa.

[00:03:08]And today we are very privileged to have a distinguished son of Guyana who has done tremendous work especially um tapping into the oral history um of Guyana. He has written several textbooks on the oral bringing the oral history to life. Um these were events that were not captured by the regular historians that we have like he he did um survey analysis research on Balam Singh Ray who was very prominent in the PBP and then Dr. Jung Bahador Singh who was uh one of the significant figures in Ghana history from the British Ghanaian Association. He was a person who fought for um voting rights and also um cremation as well plus other things.

[00:04:14]He was a member of the parliament and I recall um Dr. Betraam was saying in his book that one of the revealing um one of the significant points he made is that when Dr. Jung Bahad Singh was in parliament Dr. Jagen had approached him and asked for a job for his son that is Dr. Jagen and Dr. Jung Bahad and Jung Bahadu told him why don't you send your son overseas to study and that was trigger Dr. the Jagan father to send him overseas to study. Anyhow, and he also did another book on his wife um Alice Bagin was his name.

[00:04:59]>> Yeah. Yes.

[00:05:01]>> And now he's going out with another um masterpiece here with um massacre.

[00:05:10]Now 62 years ago this uh tragedy or massacre occurred and over 90% of the population now would have not known about it.

[00:05:27]So it gives him a great opportunity to educate the 98% of Ghana population where what occurred during those two days I believe is 24th and 25th of May 1964.

[00:05:46]So then and then um we could ask him to make a little comparison with or not a comparison but to say something about the tragedy that struck the um son Chapman couple days afterwards in July 6 because um opposition ailments seem to believe that that was organized by PPP supporters. Of course, the commissioner of the inquiry didn't find any support for that, but it will be good if if our um guest can talk a little about that. But let's go to the main um topic. What prompted you, professor, to do research? I know it took you a long time, years to get this done, but what prompted you to conduct research and to write a book on this?

[00:06:43]Well, um, gentlemen and Shisa, u, good evening. Um, and I want to do, uh, commend all of you for taking on a topic as as as this one, as controversial as it is. But um to answer your question um you know most of the things that I've written about um or most of the people or people I really never heard of and and some of those names were mentioned like I wasn't aware that Alice Singh for instance you know was a person who wrote the first um autobiography in Guyana a female an Indian female right u so one of the things that really puzzled me um as a student of history is that I've heard so much about uh wisma wisma wisma I've heard about sun shap also um right um but I've I've tried to figure out exactly what it is and and what happened but but I can tell you when this word wisma came about in even within family circles there was an expression on the faces of my my parents which I could never understand but I think I do today.

[00:07:56]Um because I've actually went into, you know, into the archive to try to dig up, you know, what Wisma was all about. Uh and here's the tragedy about this. This is a significant event in Guyana's struggle for independence, right? We were in the middle of the throws of independent of an independent struggle.

[00:08:15]Um and this event happened in ' 64.

[00:08:19]But yet, as traumatic as it is or was, uh, there's nothing actually written um about WISMA in the form of an analysis.

[00:08:29]It's kind of written off as if it's an event that happened uh during the independent struggle and it sort of disappeared. Um, so there's really no really serious examination of this. um there's really no study even among Indian academics and intellectuals and geese scholars um some of them who I've interviewed in the book and I've pose the same question so that sort of history seems to have been erased and it just kind of disappeared um I've learned also along the way that okay you know we talk about son Chapman and we can get into more on that um one of the questions that I I pose to Aubrey Norton and um former mayor of um Lynden Sharma Solomon is how come you know every year since 2018 you talk about or you have a a commemoration of Sun Chapman but nobody who go on that stage has ever mentioned the fact that there were uh Indians who resided uh in Christian and Wisma. So e even even when in in a commemoration to a you know of something that happened the son chapman that is no mention is ever made of what happened in that community by members of that community who lived there and who knows what happened. So those things really troubled me. So, so this is a project I have to say um took me about more than two decades to kind of put together because I had to go into the archive and one of the things I would say about this is that it is not me necessarily telling the story. Um the whole objective I want to make this very clear uh two things.

[00:10:13]One is that, you know, producing this document or this piece of work um is the objective was to give the victim, the silent victims a voice to have them share their own story. Uh we just came from a launch in Canada and one of the highlights of that launch was the fact that there were so many people who came on stage uh and share their own stories. So it seems like this is a sort of a um an event that that kind of allow people to vent and and to really talk about their experience. But the other important thing I do want to mention um we don't ever want to go back to a situation that happened in the 60s and we've moved on.

[00:10:54]Yes, fair enough. Um so but I I also want to make clear that in the narrative I I took um pains to make sure that this study is not about you know one group of people claiming to be victims or one group of people um you know making accusation of another group you know who ought to accept blame for this tragedy or and nor is it about um one group claiming moral authority. So, so I've made that very clear. It is simply an examination of what happened and an examination of what happened through the voices of the victims, many of whom who have been silenced uh since 1964.

[00:11:41]>> Okay. Thank you. Um let me put you on to Dr. Vishnu and then Dr. Ram Cassoon.

[00:11:52]>> Thanks. Thanks, D. Um so uh Dr. Ramarak and I have had a long history. We started out college together in 1977 teenagers. We were quite young just about seven. Um and and we also went to Guyana uh together to conduct survey research. Uh Dr. Ramra was the part as you all know of in Guyana schooling in in in in going in certain villages uh Indian villages on the east coast uh in particular um we met we met I don't know if he did but I met quite a number of people who um who settled on coast um in Elmo and in neighboring villages and who talked about their experience experiences uh happened to them. Not only what happened that transpired in Whisma, but also what transpired around that period of time 62 63 64 on the east coast uh from nearby Boxon villages and and and and nearby villages. So it's a painful history but it's a history that needs to be recorded and as Dr. Ramarak said and I happen to preview the book as well. Um it's not a book that aortions or ascribes blame to any particular group of people or organization. It's just a historical account, a factual account from from what is in the the public domain as well as from the oral uh perspective of uh people who experience it or victims themselves. So uh first we must commend Dr. Ramarak for this excellent piece of work and I also happen to have read the the uh biographies of um Dr. Jang Bahadur Singh and his wife Alice Bagun um they are all excellent pieces. So um I think the book speaks for itself. I spoke with some people um in Canada who um who went to that book launch in Toronto and and they themselves uh said it was um it is was was quite an eyeopening experience to hear the accounts of people who themselves were victims of of the Bisma. So I was just wondering if if Dr. Ramar could just give us a recap. What exactly is this massacre? But people have been talking about it for for a long period of time.

[00:14:25]Even I myself when I was growing up I was hearing about the Wisma massacre but I never knew about it until I started reading and studying about it uh recently. I I would say last 15 years or so. So Dr. Ramch, you just want to recap what exactly the massacre.

[00:14:42]>> Okay. So uh you know again we have to remember the country wasn't in the throws of an independent struggle right um as we get into the 1960s um the nationalist well the nationalist struggle the the the body that represent uh the struggle was by then had that actually split going back to 1955-56 um but the ethnic factor became uh prominent especially after 1961 of course what the British was trying to do was to prevent uh the PPP uh from taking office or being in charge of a government uh in in a postindependence uh period, right? So there was a lot of intervention um funding through the labor unions and so on. So you have all of that taking place. So you you had a lot of strike and riots and so on. you know, 1962, you had the Black Friday incident where a lot of businesses were burned and so on. Um, but pretty much, you know, Whisma um Christianborg. By the way, when we say Wisma, Whisma massacre, we're really referring to what happened in Christian um and Whisma and also in McKenzie, more so in McKenzie um after the Sun Chapman um incident. So, so you're looking at an area, you know, about 65 miles away from the city that was relatively peaceful.

[00:16:09]When you look at the narrative, uh, when you look at the testimonies given by people and by the way, it's online. Um, a lot of them were saying or they were shocked that this thing happened overnight that this was a very peaceful society and so on. There were many Indians who came surprisingly to me from, you know, uh, from places in Boris who went there. Now and remember most of these people when they went there they went there because of the fortunes that were created by the boxite company Demba which was owned by Alcan right Canadian multinational uh company so because of the boxite uh company um because of of the well that amass it became a sort of an enclave McKenzie that is right the expat rates dominated that area uh but some of the economic benefits filtered over to the other side of the dem Marara River, right? Christian Borg in the north, Wizma in the south. So quite a few Indians moved into the area. Now there's a certain characteristic um there's a lady by the name of Bobcy looking at the the stratification and the family structure and so on. And one of the things she found was a lot of the Indians who went there uh had extensive family. In other words, maybe not necessarily grandparents, but many of them had many kids and a lot of them actually built their homes um on at the lower level, they had business, but they resided on top. So, keep in mind when you attack the the business, you're essentially attacking the people who live there. So, a lot of them a lot of the families were like that. Um I'll tell you, one of the family who became very prominent was Laal. Al had the biggest what they call dry goods store just across the river um from um from McKenzie and he was a guy selling you know clothing in in the market um and eventually began to expand his business and expand and expand. So, so what happened is you have this uh ethnic tension that happened, but the spark that triggered it off was the killing of an African couple uh in the Pakistan backdowns, the celles. Um so when that happened on the 20 um on May 24th, the bodies were discovered the next day on the 22nd, May 22nd. So you have local ethnic entrepreneurs in uh Whisma and Christianberg were walking around right talking about well you know telling people well what are you going to do?

[00:18:41]Keep in mind this is a community where a lot of Africans were doing well because they were working for Denver, right? Dembe paid good wages, right? Uh because the company was flourishing. Um and Indians were a minority, right? They were about uh in some studies they've said about 20%, but I think it was less than that. Um so because of that incident there were local instigators and I can give you some names. Um, one of them was a person by the name of Robert Jordan who was no ordinary fellow. He was um the chairman of the PNC very wellrespected. In fact, Borham and his deputy Balamir Reed would have respected him very well because he was senior to them. Um, and he helped them um to establish, you know, that sort of a base um in what is now Lyndon. Um but but there was really no threat to the community there from the Indian minority right so so we had the killing of the celles um now nobody know who did this um atrocious act of the celles nobody was arrested and so on but this was the incident that triggered off people like Robert Jordan there was another criminal element by the name of Banga Mary whose real name is Henry Vander and a local administrator now think of the administrator as like the mayor uh of that area who was also part and parcel.

[00:20:09]Uh so these were like the foot soldiers who were engaged in that um siege against the Indian community. So when we say Wisma massacre, we're talking about the entire uh series of events right that took place um let's say from the 22nd it started but more so the 24th.

[00:20:29]But the most intense uh day was May 25th, Monday, May 25th. Um and the next day, which is May 26, was the day of the Exodus. So during that period, you had widespread looting.

[00:20:43]Uh buildings were burned. Uh people were beaten. Um uh you know, there was fires raging throughout the night on the 20 25th. Um and the entire Indian population about 3,400 had to be excavated. All right. Had to be removed, forcibly removed um by a famous ship which is called the um the RH car. There was another one commissioned called the MV Berea. They were you know what they call traffic um traffic water taxis and and Denver uses planes uh to excavate some of those people. So when we talk about the massacre that is what uh is entail now I've used the word now the word massacre is used by Cherry Jaggins in his book repeatedly uh mistress Janet Jagen who was the home affairs minister used the word genocide right um and when you look at the notes uh from the commissioners when you look at the you know like for instance um uh Harold Drayton who was one of the commissioners you know, his papers are in the Guyana archives. He made some notes on the original draft. They've used the word holocaust. I've used the word ethnic cleansing, and I know some people have taken issue with that. Um, ethnic cleansing is not necessarily a legal concept, but it was an area that was entirely cleansed of the Indian representation. Now, don't take my word for that. That is the observation of the commissioners who visited uh Whisma and Christian and McKenzie before they embark on their um you know uh the job of having witnesses come forward. They said they there were no evidence of any Indian who live in that area. Um and I also call that ethnic cleansing and I do want to mention this uh which is something that Indians remember um about when we talk about the Wisma massacre which is um the sexual violation of women uh that occurred especially on May 25th. Um I have documented at least six cases but when you look at the report when you listen to the testimonies again they're all online. Odin Ishmael has done a tremendous job uh of you know working with his son Safaras uh to take that those entire transcript and the report and put them online. when you look at you know you know those transcript um you could assume that they were others based on the description that the witnesses were giving but I'm not speculating uh based on the medical reports that I've seen and that was submitted uh by doctors to the commission um I have documented at least six of those cases and I I don't want to get into you know the whole you know tragic uh situation you know dealing with them and the specific incidents dealing with all of them. But one thing that was common and uh the doctor on here with us would know what I mean when I say uh dilation and curitage. This is a medical procedure that is performed on women who were violated and that procedure um was performed on some of those uh women.

[00:24:03]Three of them, by the way, three of them were from the same household. And I will leave it at that. So that that in a nutshell um is a sort of a bird's eye view of what we refer to as the Wisma massacre.

[00:24:20]>> All right, Dr. Sanji.

[00:24:28]>> Thank you very much, Dr. Tara and thank you everyone. Thank you, Professor Boram.

[00:24:34]You know, when when I listen to this introduction, it scares me to know that this actually took place in a country where I'm from. I attended uh primary school, secondary school, and and UG in Guyana. And I've never heard of the s the seriousness of this Whisma massacre until later in life. And so I'm I'm very happy that you took the time to to document this in a dark a dark history of of our country. Um while this was happening in Wisma, what was the atmosphere uh if you can in the rest of the country? because I have an uncle who was uh in his 80s and he told me that all the way in um Skeleton uh he he was getting ready to go and assist in the fight. I'm not clear. I never asked him the details, but when we did ask him, he wasn't sure of what the details were, but he had a pen knife in his pocket and he was getting ready to go for the fight. So can you give us a little bit more of what's going on in the country? Um >> well again you know keep in mind Whisma is a different area right it's away from the city most of the conflict and again I have to say you know um that there were tit tit fortat conflicts Indians against Africans Africans against Indians in the coastal area right um there were incidents in borese there were incidents along the coast incidents in in the city um so that was going on again because you also had, you know, the um the Americans and the British uh trying to prevent the PPP from getting a foothold, right? So, uh and then what you have happening in ' 64 was also the introd well the whole notion of the proportional representation system which in a sense was designed to bring the opposition PNCF into office. So tension was there right and a lot of violence took place. In fact, 1964 was one one of the most violent of years in Guyana's history. Uh and like I said, you know, we don't want to go back to that period.

[00:26:49]So, a lot of that was happening. But remember, there's a distinction here when we talk about Whisma uh where in Whisma the minority communities um you had no place to go, right? Unlike the coastal area uh where um you know if you were being threatened in one community you could go to the next community nearby where um you know people of your ethnic community were the majority. So that wasn't a safe haven. So you have a lot of that taking place right along the coast. Uh but in the case of Wisma there's no place to go. your safest thing to do if you were under siege um was to find your way, especially if you were living all the way uh on the west up in the hills in a place called Valley of Tears where uh the first two Indians were were killed. Uh you had to work your way down, find yourself and get to the Dearara River and then take a you know um a river taxi and get to the other side. So there there's a distinction here, right? um between what was happening and yes, you know, like I said, there there were events taking place uh back and forth between the two communities, Africans and Indians, uh along um the coastal area um and and and the adjacent villages where they could go was was the way you would find safe haven. Not the case um you know with uh with Whisma and and I think that's a a very um a major contrast that we have to keep in mind, right? So the only thing you could do is to find a way to get out of that area. So that was also another reason for the um for the conflict.

[00:28:32]>> Yeah, >> we we'll come back to this. Um Shmesea, we need to take a break now.

[00:28:38]>> Okay, >> we'll be right back after these messages.

[00:28:50]Heat. Heat. N.

[00:29:28]Heat. Heat.

[00:29:48]Okay. Um, Dr. Dr. Sanjay, you followup question or clarification?

[00:29:57]>> Sure. Thank you very much, Doc.

[00:30:00]Doc, despite this had happened so many years ago, um how no one has ever really documented on this and why was this not ever uh taught in schools as part of our history so that the children growing up will understand a little bit of our dark history of our country. Any ideas why this was not shared?

[00:30:23]>> Well, it it was actually documented, right? Um the uh WISMA report and the transcripts are actually online. Now, now here's the thing. Um you know, my approach to this is to make the argument that the victims need a voice. The whole history of what happened to them was erased. Um so after 1964 the commission finished its work and it was it was given to the coalition the new coalition government PNC UF uh in January 1965 and when you look at the you know um the telegrams between the governor and members of the commission by the way there were four members of the commission um there was a a Harold Rayton who was brought back from Africa to establish the University of Guyana.

[00:31:17]Um there was a Macdonald Alexander see if I get the name right. Alexander Macdonald who was a reverend uh Sanhan Rupan Singh who was the chairperson and there was a woman um Savage Mutu who was on the the only woman on the commission.

[00:31:33]But to come back to your um question, there was a whole discussion when the report was handed over to the government. So the commissioners were sitting and waiting, you know, they they've put so much effort into this thing and they've been they've been writing back and forth and those letters are actually in the archive in Harold Drayton's archive. Um and also from the governor's secret telegram from Guyana to British Guyana at that time to uh England. Um so the question came up what is the government doing? Nothing came out of it. So it the document was dead on arrival. It was never discussed. Um of course the PNC UF came in after that and it's a whole different ballgame where there's a suppression a dictatorship was being established along the line. Um so you never had an opportunity for people to really air their grievances or talk about it. So it never found its way into the uh history books. Um I think to a certain extent uh um you have a situation also where you know ethnicity was seen as something you know that was divisive in other words talking about a person's cultural background and so on was an attempt in a society that in a sense was trying to to look at trying to bring the uh working class together um you know based on this Marxist conception of what you know politics should be about. So, >> so it was it was a strategy right it was strategic not to have it >> right it was strategic but but the point is the country was already divided right by 64 you had the split in the nationalist movement and so on so that division was there so with the emphasis on class uh there's a deemphasis on the whole notion of ethnicity um so you have that um and I can tell you there's some other reasons for this uh which is one of them has to do with the fact it there's there's a a long period where uh addressing ethnic issue was seen as something that was disruptive. In other words, you could not be an Indian and talk about Indian issues, right? And I can tell you from experience, Mr. Bishram would know about this. Uh if you were writing about issues of concern for Indians, you would be branded a triumphist, a supremacist. Um so so in other words those ideas were readily rejected because they were seen as a threat uh to creating this either working-class structure or to build a society um you know you know where everybody could be a part of but in reality um you you have a situation where other groups could do what they what they want to do but yet the Indian element of their own history was not being given that kind of a you know real treatment. So therefore you have those attacks on people who will voice their opinion on those issues and that continued. I give you a good example. Uh today uh you know there is really no uh strong Indian uh organiz I'm not talking about the PPP. The PPP is a political vehicle um for a lot of people Indians included. Um but there is no single uh Indian organization that really speaks to concerns uh of Indians in general um compared to let's say Epology which is a a conglomeration of about 80 organizations African organizations part of that outfit. So you don't have that so therefore that voice is not there. So the voice is even silenced politically.

[00:35:05]See it's not in it was never discussed in parliament. It was sheld right. Um so you have that long tradition of struggle uh where you're dealing with other issues a dictatorship and so on you know so so um whole notion of a document that speaks to the concern of Indians was never given that kind of um attention uh that it deserve especially in a country which is you know multicultural right it's a plural society and every voice need to be need to be heard but you don't get that from the Indian side of it.

[00:35:40]>> Okay. Um let's um I know you provided some basic um data and destruction.

[00:35:50]Do you have an idea how many um you research you up how many homes are burnt and u my understand is that most of these homes they didn't carry um insurance and they were not compensated by the government and a follow-up question was any person indicted for any crime they committed was there any accountability that you're aware of based on your research >> could perpetrate.

[00:36:27]>> Yeah. Well, according to the report, there were hundreds of homes that were destroyed, right? And there were about 87 or 89 uh businesses that were destroyed. Um one person uh colleague who was associated with the UNP said that uh if you take an estimate of the value today it would probably range between 35 and 45 million. So you have that a number of farms were destroyed you know people's uh stocks uh were also destroyed um and that's besides the houses and so on and the buildings that were destroyed right um so so here's one of the problem uh with with this in terms of not just the number of homes and so on uh from the report um there are government officials who said that we don't have an accurate representation of all the numbers in fact one of the person who testified on on the first day. Um he said that uh the numbers are grossly under represented right. Aside from that in terms of the number of people who were injured and so on we don't know because the police were out in in the streets many of them and the stop taking report right at a certain point of the day on May 25th. And then you have a fellow by the name of um I think his name uh Jram um trying to remember his name Albert Jam who was a dispenser uh and who was entrusted with you know keeping track of broads and debts. Now he left on the 24th of May so whatever happened after that there's no record of that. Uh but to answer the second part of your question now um nobody was held accountable. Um the commission said that much and the commission also pointed to the fact that um aside from that they could not find they simply could not find any cases or incident where Indians rebelled um or took actions upon their own um to attack you know people who were attacking them right but I do want to emphasize also that the commission report did point to the fact that there were some Africans um you know who um took it upon themselves at the risk of being uh beaten or killed. In fact, uh Jana Jagen make reference to an incident where a person an African tried to rescue some of the Indians who were under stress and they had to leave Wisma. So there are some cases and we do have to recognize that humanity. Um but you know but but the in there was an intensity an intensity of of rage that actually uh you know descended upon that community.

[00:39:14]I spoke to Vincent Adams um you know who was the EPA commissioner just to give an idea how intense this was. you know, his mom is Indian, father is African, and he described a situation um during my interview with him and even on a on a previous show with David Hines where he said that they had to find a way to hide his mom. Imagine this is a person from Krishn, you know, dad was an African, grew up there and had to have the um the troops escort the mom and the other siblings out of Christian world. And that is how intense how intense uh you know this kind of a situation was.

[00:39:56]>> Well, there you said there are about three over 3,000 people get uprooted and given the intensity of the hatred that prevailed in. How did these people escape since there are limited avenue to move about invisible Christian Mckenzie area?

[00:40:16]Well, there's some grueling testimonies of what people had to do. Now, imagine if you live I don't know if anyone of you have been to Whisma Christianberg, but if you go from the waterfront and you look up, you're going up to an hilly area. Um, there's, you know, like a place called half mile, which means half mile from the river, one mile, it's one mile from the from the, you know, from the riverfront. But there's a valley of tears, you know, there's no electricity there, right? his own light. Um, the only thing you could do at night, you see all the houses being burned. So, and you had to move your way from there all the way to the front, you were being attacked by people who catch you along the way. There are a lot of the um witnesses who describe situations where they saw women being molested, where their husbands were being beaten, you know, chains were pulled from under a hat and head, bicycle chains that is.

[00:41:10]Um, you know, people were beaten with peeling staves, you know, the the Walaba post as they call it, which was prevalent in that area. Um, so, so it wasn't easy to get from there, you know, from uphill to that point. Now, imagine a lot of those people sought um haven and the police and the volunteer force took them into the Whisma police station, right? Um others were taken across the river uh into uh McKenzie into the uh training school that was there into the McKenzie um hospital. Um and even while they were seeking refuge in the Whisma police station um one fell uh tried to burn them while those people were there. So they were held overnight.

[00:41:54]they were taken across or stayed in the police station or taken over the whisma and they had to leave the next day um on that uh on the Bereimma which was commission or the RH car. Now you have to remember also that women who were molested a lot of the doctors who testified uh in front of the commissioners um said that some of these women uh did not have the benefit of being treated.

[00:42:21]They did not have medical attention um while they were in Whisma. So that means they had to stay overnight uh without any kind of medical attention and when they came off into the Ramvelt industrial site. There's a famous name that you some of you might be familiar with um Sees Narin uh who was the head of the Sanatan Dharm Mahas Saba. uh he testified in front of the commission that when the RH car showed up at the Rumvelt industrial site, uh he was shocked to look at the the vict refugees out, but they remained on a ship simply because there were one or two African volunteers who were trying to help them uh to get out the ship, but they refused to get out the ship because they were afraid of what they saw. a very telling a very you know telling uh story about you know what these women and and men had to undergo. Um you know one of the Kissoon family Hemorrh Kissoon I interviewed him he said uh it was a terrible sight. The Kissoon family provided the mattresses and the bed where those some of those people stayed there for a couple of weeks um until family came and gathered them and moved them around and so on uh and and take them to to places you know where they could live with other family but um you know that's your um >> have you been able to collect any picture of the um camp at Rumville?

[00:43:52]Uh I don't have pictures of the camp at Rambville, but I do have a lot of pictures from the victims and places and so on and some of those are in the book.

[00:44:00]I mean it's a it's a big fat uh book.

[00:44:03]It's about you know 850 pages. So there pictures of people >> um and um but there I do have to say that there's a lot of information that could not reach into this book because there are people who told me things uh in confidence um did not want their name mentioned but I've used some of those information to kind of verify what other people have said because you want to be able to document what people are telling you and they're not >> you know losing their memory or saying things because they heard things. Um, so there there's plenty here and there's plenty more. Like the people who showed up at the book launch in Toronto. Um, they did not enter the book. There were four people um, four or five people, I don't remember the number, who went on stage and spoke about their experience.

[00:44:51]Um, who I've never met before. Um, Faizer Raheem who was there, he was also on on the the show, the zoom show two weeks ago. uh he was there and um he talked you know we by the way his um his cousin Richard Khan was the first person killed um Richard Khan's brother will join us at the launch in New York on the 7th um and the person who did the the painting you know there's a story behind this um which depict the violence against uh women especially Indian women it was done by Filbert Gadget her uh who as I said will be there with us in New York um an explanation of the painting that painting is now on the um house of the superad who bought the painting um you know but um I think I lost track of the question that you pos um I just I know we run out of time but um if you can just address the slim chapman a bit a little Um because some people >> Yeah. Sun Chapman occurred after the um Wisma massacre.

[00:46:09]>> Um well some of the comments I've seen said um Whisma was um a re um you know was a reaction to San Chapman. That's not true. as you said wisma occurred a priority a priority before Chapman. So let me say a few things about that and which came out of the research. Um, I know Hamilton Green had made that mistake on on a show with me and Ravi and him um confusing the dates, but I think it's important to remember um the commission uh said that this was a planned attack, right? Um it was organized well organized and and again the details are in that uh in the transcript. But to come back to son Chapman, um this was a terrible a a terrible tragic uh event uh that is in the minds of Africans and and you know and I think uh you have to put yourselves in their shoes to understand um you know their feeling about San Chapman. Again, we're dealing with a divided society where there's really two theories about the San Chapman. one is that it was it was deliberate um or it was caused by an explosion because dynamite was stolen what was stored or kept near the engine right so those two things exist now let me say this um Mr. Norman Yakub Chapman, the owner of the Sun Chapman was a supporter of the PNC. That's a given. And one of the person who I interviewed confirmed this also um and and his um his words. I wouldn't question it because he's connected well connected to the people in Wisma and Christian work. So we know that. Now the secondly, let me just say that um Cheddy Jagen a year before I I believe it was June 3rd or somewhere around there uh where he sent a letter to his home affairs uh minister which was Janet Jagen and B and again this is a year before Sun Chapman basically saying that there is a boat he mentioned in the boat by name the Sun Chapman that is carrying explosives. Can you please look into that? Now, I don't know what came out of that investigation, but we know this was heavily traffked. You know, this was part of what the Sun Chapman uh was doing by people who know it. Uh there was a guy named a Ned um who wrote a letter in the paper. There was also a Ned in what is called a plan X13 um situation. He's connected and he said this is connected to the X13 plan as they call it. um and he could certify according to him that this was an explosion that occurred in the engine right near the engine. So here's the other fact about the Sun Chapman um which is that there was an inquest um led by a fellow by by the name of PM B Smith I believe uh it was held um I think if I remember correctly for five days there were 60 witnesses uh interviewed two of them were from the hospital the McKenzie hospital and they conclude there was no conclusive evidence that this uh incident um was the result of human sabotage. So that's been established by that inquest. And here's the other thing uh about the San Chapan. I want to mention Harold Drayton who was a commissioner um the Wisma on the Wishma commission you know which produced that report made a comment which is this. He said that if the PNC was concerned about a son Chapman and if they believed that there was duggery involved in in that explosion, Boram would have or could have uh set up a commission uh because he came into office uh just after the 1964 election and that could have put a lot of things to rest. But the fact that Boram did not do that um leaves much to be desired. And here is the last thing I want to say about the Sun Chapman. And again, it is a terrible tragedy. 43 people uh Africans um you know lost their lives. um when the Sun Chapman occur July 6th, a lot of people do not know uh that on that very day while the police were doing their investigation and trying to gather uh details about that incident, five Indians, five Indians, innocent uh individuals were rooted out and they were they were killed because they were blamed for what happened to the Sun Chapman. Uh, one of those five was a young boy by the name of Morris Bakers.

[00:51:06]He was 10 years old. Uh, he got killed because he stepped in to defend his sister who was three years old. Right?

[00:51:14]So that fact seemed to have escaped a lot of people. When we talk about son Chapman and the doctors produced a report about what happened during son Chapman in the hospital, they describe a situation where the entire hospital was under siege. So they had to move the Indians uh who were in the wards or or at least they had to protect them and get the army involved um to protect them. So so those are things about the sun chapman that need to be told. Now there they are harsh realities. Um but again uh you know these are incidents that happened and I think we have to kind of weed out you know um the the frills in other words the things that people are seeing and making up because I'm seeing a lot of things on on social media which does not connect with the facts does not look at the documents that are there or the artifacts um about your son Chapman as well as the um Whisma massacre and by the way there's a lot to gathered from uh testimonies in the WISMA commission because remember the commission met from uh November to December Sun Chapman had occurred after that right um so the commissioners were concerned about that so they they raised questions so there's some information you can actually gather there to support what I just said about son Chapman >> all right thank you um Dr. division >> means that has any questions.

[00:52:42]>> Okay. Um Dr. Sanji >> any followup?

[00:52:50]>> Thank thank you very much. um in terms of number of persons and I know you you talked about women being um abused was there any u there I'm sure there are many children involved and also I wanted to know the number of people that that was treated medically in Wisma at the time and how long did it take for the army to really step in and protect the the remaining population at the on the 25th 26th Was it >> okay? Well, the army came in on on the 25th, right? As we said, that was the most intense day, uh, when most of the destruction and so on occur. Um, Janet Jagen had met with the police commissioner, uh, Mr. Owen. Um, and she was getting reports, uh, from people on the ground, right? Obviously, even though the PBP didn't have a a formal structural organiz organization in Wisma, they had people who were giving information. So, she told the police commissioner, "You have to, you know, get the army involved because I'm getting all of these reports." The commissioner of um of police said, "Well, um you know, well, I'm going to do my own investigation. I can't rely on what you're telling me. So I'm going to send one of my uh my subordinate into um you know into Whizma McKenzie to do his own report. So time was lost right? The information was gotten let's say by 10 in the morning that the serious events were developing. Um so you have that um and and so so the time you know laps and then the commissioner police commissioner also said well you know I need to have this in writing. That's the precedent, right? Um, so you have the delay in time to the army came in much later and by the time they came in a lot of the destruction because when they came into the area they had to go through McKenzie, right? That's where you know the airirstrip was and so on or the boats would land and they had to consult with the folks at Denver. There was a constabularary there. Um, you know the armies met there. So all of that, you know, took time before they could get into the field across the river. So, so there was a delay there and that's well documented by the commission uh report, right? So they've placed responsibility on um the uh police uh commissioner in terms of the numbers of people. Well, >> you you think the delay was because of a shock or or it was a part of a plot?

[00:55:27]Well, well, well, obviously, you know, the uh the PBP was under siege, right, in Georgetown. Um, and Jana Jagen did complain about the police not giving her reports about things that are happening.

[00:55:40]She was getting reports from her own people on the ground. There was also a lady by the name of Christine Christina Ramjatan who was a PPP um senator from Christian, right? um she had come to Georgetown and she tried to make it known. I mean she was in a sense she took a little bit of a you know lacadisical way of trying to get it uh get that information um to the folks in Georgetown. Um but but the point is u the response was slow in coming. Um so so you know obviously this is a government the British government were anti-PPP and they didn't um in a sense uh they had nothing to lose by letting things play out right um so so you could say yes there was a conspiracy because the whole idea was to prevent the PPP you know from from gaining access to an independent country um >> but but the numbers of people who were injured and so on um the numbers it depends on who you speak to whether it's the you know Dr. Rosa um you know in the um you know who was in in the McKenzie hospital at that time he'll give you a number there. Yes, they were they were kids. They were women. Um, and as I said, the number of uh people who were beaten, you know, the commission have their own numbers, but uh but the hospital officials have their own numbers. But keep in mind, um, you know, the actual number, you you'll not be able to find that. Even if you you you take your time and you go through each of the pages in the report and look at the the witness's testimony, you're looking at 40 50 people, you know, who were killed and beaten, about 32 or more on um on the San Chapan incident, but a lot of those incidents were not reported. So, you can't even go with the numbers that they give you, right? Um so, that's another tragedy uh in itself. and and and I do have to say um uh you know some of the things that people are talking about today you know since this kind of um not to blow my own horn but since this uh study has come out about the Whisma massacres there there are people who we know and I've said so that they have never gone back to the area when they left they left they never turned back so they don't know what happened to the land right um so they don't know what happened to the place that they owned at that time because they never went back.

[00:58:16]Um there are some people who have mentioned you know having a sort of a memorial um commemorating what happened um you know during that time uh I mean there's some people talking about doing a documentary and so on but be that as it may um you know the uh the numbers when you talk about numbers I know for a fact um even for the women you know who were violated um because somebody had brought this up um you know prior when I when I made that uh in information known which is that well how do you verify the number of women who were raped? Well the initial report from the police commissioner says he he pointed to six right uh and I was able to pull that six from the medical report uh and and some of those people were young. One of them was a young woman, her name is Dorin Sukr, um you know, who uh the doctor says was in such shock that before they could operate on her, they had to sedate her. Um so, so you have those, you know, those specific incidents that are reported, right, that are there, but then there's so many unknown that we don't know about um that is not mentioned. and and the fact that you have people, you know, who are coming forward today talking about their own experience. You go to my Facebook page, there are people who, you know, they who have never met, but they're making comments. They're talking about, you know, their own experience. I mean the the person who was the Guyana um uh council general in Miami I interviewed him um you know he said his father was shot and and and his father's name is also mentioned in the report they had to leave and went to you know Barbis um but he's the the council rep uh in Miami uh today.

[01:00:13]>> All right. Um I know we coming to um I think Shamisa will have a few question but I just want a last I want to make a last point here.

[01:00:25]Where do we go from here?

[01:00:28]Um I read the chronic another chronicle the Kaure news where Mr. Michael Paris who is a former head of the department of sociology and social work at the University of Ghana calling for a truth and reconciliation commission having watch your program in Canada and also this has been supported now by transparency international Ghana transparency international calling for tr truth and reconciliation commission similar barely along the pattern of the South African model. Um, you have any comments on that?

[01:01:13]Well, I mean, we are on record, right, of calling for a truth and reconciliation uh commission and yes, South Africa represents, you know, what a perspective of what that can look like. Um, but I but I think it makes sense makes a lot of sense. um you know when you have people sit down and really you know talk about what happened and really air their grievance right because remember there are still people among us walking around you know who were part and parcel of these conflicts right and not just these two conflicts I mean not just mass massacre um that we're talking about or the sun chapan but there are so many incidents you know Guyana came out we were a young nation but we came out of a of a dark past. Uh so it does make sense for people to ear uh their grievances. Uh because by doing that I I think you can come to a point where you can say okay then let's put that behind us. But but I think for that to happen you have to acknowledge you have to acknowledge that wisma also happened as opposed to you know um denying and trying to erase it because it's it's something that happened and it's there.

[01:02:26]It's documented. it's documented. Um I I posed the challenge to um Sharma Salomon you know I said well how come since 2018 you have a commemoration um for the son but no mention of visma. So I think a truth and reconciliation where people can can do that honestly right and sincerely uh would be a good way uh to move forward you know I mean we we we we have a we in a society where you know we we need to go beyond a handshake so to speak.

[01:02:59]>> Thank thank you very much um Shmeza over to you.

[01:03:03]>> Thank you Dr. Tara. Um Mr. Ramarak, I have to say I'm very impressed uh with you telling this horrific story and being so calm about it cuz listening to you right now, I'm sure me and many others are very infuriated listening to this story. So with that said, we will take some um messages from um viewers and then we will ask some questions. So Ramona says that she was just six years old living obliquely opposite Freedom House unaware of why all of what was occurring and the racial and economic background of what was taking place. This is my reason for suggesting that the history curriculum of our country should be focused on the struggles we had experienced. Is it not possible?

[01:03:58]>> Well, yeah. I mean uh we we need to get this in our history books, right? Um people need to know what happened because I think once you you know what happened and you acknowledge it happened that's a sort of a not just a therapeutic effect but it's an effect uh on people who are looking who are trying to build a future by saying look okay where do we go from here then we need to acknowledge and then move on and come up with policies so we don't you know we make sure that these things don't happen again but certainly it has to be in the history book a lot of things has to be in the history book and and like I said I could not find any books or any any um you know anything written about the Whisma massacre except for a paper that was done by Alyssa Truss. Uh but in her paper she juxapos the Sun Chapman with the uh Whisma massacre as if they're sort of on the on the same equal footing. Uh the reality does not bear that out. The facts do not bear that out, right? Um so we need to start by acknowledging those things and yes we need to have um a history of Guyana where all people are included right and that that does not conflict in any way with with one Guyana because we are a multicultural um you know um multithnic society and everybody have their own truths and everybody have their own voice and I think together we can move forward as they say you know unity and diversity.

[01:05:26]>> Now speaking of our history, Iwas Rahman says, "Our school system has failed to educate us on the history of our country. So many things are being left out when they teach us our history. Is there anything in place to have this in schools? The history?"

[01:05:48]>> Well, I mean, it can be a um a discussion in the social studies curriculum, right?

[01:05:53]>> Of course. Um so that would be a good place uh to start. Um I mentioned the fact that even with the discussion you have to have institutions right institutions um are symbolic because they bring forth memories of what happened in the past.

[01:06:09]You know as I say you know you want to avoid what happened in the past. Um, so I think when people mention things like a commemoration, um, I some folks in Queens who who called me a few days ago said, "Look, you know, uh, we have the money, you know, we want to put together, um, some kind of memorial to what happened."

[01:06:27]There's no harm in doing that because once we do things like that and we have the institutions, right? Right. I mean, you go to Barbies, you have the, you know, you you have the memorial of what happened in 1913 where, you know, 15 people were, you know, you have the Enore Martha, you have the uh in the square of the revolution, right? You have a monument there because those in those things serve as a reminder. And I think if we can all do that and try to capture uh holistically the history of all gy as much as we can um and then make sure that history is um you know passed down to the younger generation uh without anybody claiming superiority or triumphant you know or saying we're better than the other. That's not the point. The point is to learn from each other, right? Uh I mean we've come a long way from that I think in Guyana today. Uh because I think young people today might be more open right um open to that kind of discussion and appreciation of the history that you know we left behind.

[01:07:36]>> Definitely. Mr. Jail says, "Respectfully, should this PPP government make this tragedy an annual commemorative event, perhaps have some emblem and space in a park to remember this part of our history?" And I know you just mentioned some folks in in Queens want to do something, but I feel something like this should be by the the government.

[01:08:02]>> Yeah. Um Yeah. No, absolutely. I I agree. But um I don't know if uh uh who will you initiate this discussion with um in the government because see part of the problem is like I said people believe that when you talk about you know issues like this in fact there are people who have contacted me and says well why are you talking about this you're going to create a situation where you're going to cause a problem. I don't know where a book um has caused, you know, issues that that that could be so disruptive.

[01:08:36]I I can't think of one. But there are people who make those kinds of silly argument uh that you can't write about this, you can't talk about this. But yes, uh Mr. Jaw maybe he can um approach uh the government to do something like this. But I think if more and more people come forward and act as a kind of lobbying uh force to say look you know um one guy unity and diversity and let's all move forward together but let's acknowledge what happened in the past and it's important because we don't want to repeat what happened in the past. So I would support either the government getting involved in such an initiative or if the government maybe uh sort of a you know get um you know private groups individuals and so on um I don't think there's a problem with getting the resources uh to do this and I think um it ought to happen just as much as we want to get this into the history books.

[01:09:33]>> I do want to acknowledge Becky Warara.

[01:09:37]She's um watching us right now and her family was affected um in the Whismer uh mascar. She says, "My baby brother was thrown through a window, hit his head, and got brain damage, and he later jumped through a window and killed himself. We are very sorry for your loss or we are sorry that your family had to go through this." Um Kenra Prasad is saying, "How difficult was it to write this book?"

[01:10:05]Well, it wasn't easy, right? Like I said, this is the project that took me 20 years, more than 20 years, and in between I've done some other things, the other projects that Dr. Tara mentioned.

[01:10:17]Um, you have to have a certain stamina, and again, don't take my word. The transcripts are on the internet. Odin is the PB ambassador, um, has made it available. Uh, so when you're doing a narrative, sometimes you have to go back and read the transcript. Um and I can tell you it wasn't easy because there's a section where I looked at the you know the genderbased violence as they call it the violence that was um you know perpetrated against women. Uh one of the testimony was by a woman by the name of Ramati Prashad right um she was the one who came from the same household where two other family members you know um suffer the ultimate um you know attack uh that transcript you have to have a a a heart of steel to really read it but imagine going back and reading that over because when you're doing the narrative you have to go back and see what she says right There are some women who testified that aside from that trauma, they had the hair cut off. So that's a second set of trauma, right? Um so so these are things that happened and so it's difficult to read uh those parts um you know of what happened and so that's why I guess one of the reasons why it took me um you know this amount of time to kind of put this together. Um, and like I said, there are people who are not in there who could not. In fact, I know Becky and her sister. Um, unfortunately, I did an interview with them. I went to Brooklyn, met with the sister. Uh, you know, they suffer. They had to run through the bushes and they had a store in Whisma. Um, but unfortunately, I could not I mean, this would have been a two volume uh book, but I do have a recorded interview with her sister what happened. Um so so if at some level if this uh is therapeutic for some people to come out and and say what happened to them then I I think I've accomplished my task and I think some some of the burden has been lifted off my shoulder when I hear those kinds of comments.

[01:12:29]Well, thank you and I hope there is a documentary um coming out about it and you know um as a woman I will love to have that convers conversation with um members of the Guyana government. If there are other women who would like to support we should have this discussion because I think it's very important. Um before we wrap up we have uh Sandra is asking what is the title of the book and is it on Amazon? Can you talk a little bit about this?

[01:13:00]>> If Sandra is in New York, um the book is on on all major distributor. You can contact me. Uh we will have books on sale at the the launch in New York on June 7th and we will have a launch in Guyana on June 20. If you are in Guyana, uh you can purchase it there uh from us, right? Uh but if you're in New York, like I said, June 7th, they just put the ad on the screen. Uh we will have some available um for sale at those two events.

[01:13:32]>> June 7th, the location >> uh the location for June 7th um it's on the screen. It says um 3 to 5 p.m.

[01:13:43]>> Avenue.

[01:13:44]>> Yeah. 110-17 101 Avenue, uh South Richmond Hill. Uh you know, you you if you find me on Facebook, just uh plug in my name there, you'll be able to find it and I'll give you some more information. And if you're following me on Facebook, I will have that information up as well. So if you would like to attend, um I will have that information up for you as well. Now um uh please give us your closing remarks.

[01:14:13]>> Well, you know, I would say um a trauma is a trauma and for a lot of people um you know who had suffered this faith, many of them carry this trauma for generations, right? is a second generation. Um and I we talked about the women uh you know who faced uh this tragedy and many of those women um had to repeat what happened to them to their parents you know to their uh family member to the police and to the commission and so on. Keep in mind this is a sort of a again trauma upon trauma because you're repeating what happened.

[01:14:48]I mean, if you you work in a in in a high school in in the United States, uh there's a a trauma within the family, you bring, you know, that kid downstairs and meet with the guidance counselors, right? And and and meet with the family because you want to deal with the trauma and don't leave them with that burden.

[01:15:06]None of these people, you know, had that. I know we're dealing with the 1960s. Yeah. Uh but for the woman um you know who suffered that fate um it's even hard for me to talk about that. uh but but I would add um this summary to what I'm seeing here which is that um the history of specifically about Indians because this was an event obviously you know it also had an effect on Africans uh but the violence was perpetrated against Indians and and um what we have to recognize is that um the history of Indians uh belong to the archive uh but it's also the history of Indians which also has to be acknowledged and I think that has to be recognized for what it is and and we have to have that voice uh to be able to talk about our own experience and what happened because I think that is also part of who we are. We we need to be able to to to bring that up forward and be aware of of what happened in the past. Uh so that you know we can be acknowledged as citizens of a country especially people who were faced with a tragedy uh that has been erased you know sort of a wiped out um and in in some cases deliberately silenced uh over the years uh since it since it happened. Um so and I think we have to take ownership of that and not be afraid to talk about it. Uh because we have enough information to talk about it. We know what happened. Um because there are still people among us who were part and parcel of that tragedy.

[01:16:47]>> Well uh thank you so much for taking the time to be here um speaking about the history of Guyana. I would like to take the opportunity on behalf of the team here at the Guyana Dialogue say to the people of Guyana, congratulations on your 60th independence anniversary of Guyana. We've definitely come a long way. We're proud GY and I wish all of us the best for the future. With that said, I'm your host Shmeza Ali and this is the Gina Dialogue. Good evening everyone and thank you for taking the time to join us.