Answers for a Skeptic: The Problem of Hell, Part 1

追加: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]Authentic is sponsored in whole by Voice of Prophecy.

[00:00:04]The way some people tell the story, the devil works for God, shoveling coal onto the fires of hell to make sure it never ever goes out. So, in other words, the devil is actually working for God. So, does that sound right to you?

[00:00:22]Welcome to Authentic. Shan Bonstra explores real existential questions about the meaning of your life and how you can live a genuine human existence.

[00:00:32]Listen every week right here on this station or on your favorite podcaster.

[00:00:36]Here's Shan with this week's episode of Authentic.

[00:00:40]Welcome to another worldchanging episode of Authentic brought to you by the generous people who like to keep this on the air. And I say that it's worldchanging because I'd like to believe that it's going to change somebody's world. Today, we're going back to a series I started after I heard a skeptic on Tik Tok pose questions that she would like to ask God if she discovered that he was real. And so far, we've explored just a few of her objections, like the idea that God has somehow been silent. And of course that proved to be an unfounded accusation because after all Christianity is known as a revealed religion. It claims that God has spoken through the pages of this book and through the person of Christ.

[00:01:26]And of course after complaining that God hasn't told her anything personally, she went on to complain about the contents of the Bible or at least what she thought was the contents of the Bible.

[00:01:39]So that's where we're going today to one of the most misunderstood teachings of Western Christianity. In fact, it's so misunderstood that your average Christian has no idea what the Bible actually says. And if you ask them to tell you, you're more than likely going to get medieval superstition than you are actual biblical content. And really, that's a bit of a tragedy because it's on this front in particular that God gets most of his negative publicity.

[00:02:10]Publicity that isn't rooted in anything God actually said. It's founded on stuff that church people say. And of course, the subject we're talking about is the doctrine of eternal damnation and the fires of hell. So, let me read you what this skeptic actually said so we can begin to unpack this. And remember, she's supposedly addressing her questions to God. She says, "If you knew that the vast majority of humans you created would end up in hell, why did you create them? Why did you create hell? How is infinite justice punishment for a finite crime? What is the point of torturing someone in hell if they can never get out of it and never learn?"

[00:02:56]You know something? While some of her previous objections were not very well thought out, I'd have to say that this objection makes a lot of sense. And she is by no means the only person to ask this stuff. Not by a long shot. I mean, in in particular, I'm thinking about Robert Ingresol, who was kind of like the Richard Dawkins of the 19th century.

[00:03:20]He was nicknamed the great agnostic, a word that is usually reserved for people with a much more well modest approach to the subject of religion because agnostic just means you don't know. But the stuff that Ingresol said goes way beyond not knowing. And he was famous for leveling some rather brutal accusations against God. like this one dealing with the doctrine of hell where he said against the heartlessness of the Christian religion, every grand and tender soul should enter solemn protest. The God of hell should be held in loathing, contempt, and scorn. A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved, cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy. The cries and sobs of hell, in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

[00:04:23]Now, let me just say this. If that's what the Bible actually teaches, then I've got all the sympathy in the world for Robert Ingresol because he's kind of making a really great point. It kind of sounds like a really brutal and unforgiving god, but you know, I can't join Ingresol's protest because he's arguing against medieval superstition and not what the Bible says.

[00:04:50]So maybe let me set the table like this.

[00:04:54]Last season, we spent some time exploring where the Western church got this idea that the devil is a halfman, halfgoat creature with red skin and horns. It's a concept that you won't find anywhere in the Bible. I mean, just go and try and find it. And as we peeled back the layers of history last time, we discovered that as the Christian Franks pushed their way into the other Germanic territories of Europe, the church in the West spent a lot of time trying to create harmony between pagan beliefs and the teachings of the Bible in order to convince my ancestors to become Christians. And that wasn't an easy task because my ancestors were well rank barbarians.

[00:05:37]This effort to harmonize Christianity and pagan belief is the reason we still have a lot of pagan fingerprints on our culture to this day. Like the fact that we still use the names of pagan gods as names for the days of the week. And among all those pagan gods was a very ancient deity known as Cernunos, the god of the forest and the god of hunting. He was also the god who escorted you into the afterlife down into the underworld.

[00:06:07]Kind of like Keron, the guy who rode you over the river sticks in Greek mythology. Now, there was almost no way the church could Christianize this horned god. And there was no way the pagans were going to give him up. So, in an effort to persuade the pagans to abandon Cernos, they identified him with Satan. And that's how we got the horned version of Lucifer. Now, if you missed that episode, you might want to find it on our website, voiceofprophecy.com, click the shows tab, click authentic, and then look for a show called Speak of the Devil. That's voiceofprophecy.com.

[00:06:46]Click the shows tab. Then click authentic and look for speak of the devil. And maybe if you'd be so kind, click on the donate button while you're there too to keep us going. So our modern concept of the devil, it was borrowed from pagan mythology and it's not in the Bible. And frankly, that's also what happened when it came to our popular conceptions of hell. I mean, just think about the word hell. And notice the picture that pops into your head. It's a fiery cave somewhere deep beneath the surface of the earth where the souls of the lost are being tortured day after day after day throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. And of course, in our comic book version of hell, the horn devil with goat's feet is running the place.

[00:07:35]But then take your Bible and look for that. Find me that description in the pages of this book. What you will be able to find is a mention of fire at the end of the world. And you can find descriptions of people who are lost, but it's not at all the same as the stories we've been telling. Most of us, unless you happen to be Jewish, came from a pagan background in the rather recent past. In fact, in the case of my tribe, the Fians, Christianity arrived in about the 8th century, which is only about 12,300 years ago. And unfortunately, by that time, Christianity had already undergone a significant degree of synretatism through two significant channels. First, there was a fairly large degree of henistic or Greek thinking that made its way into the Christian faith through the scholars who worked in Alexandria because they were busy trying to impress the pagans with the deep philosophical thoughts of the Bible. And most of these guys like Clement or Origin were well-meaning, but they compromised just enough to burden Christian thinking with ideas that did not come from Jesus or the apostles.

[00:08:47]But then something happened in the 4th century that really encouraged widespread synretatism between the pagan worldview and Christianity. And I'll be right back after this to tell you what that was.

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[00:09:31]>> This is Authentic with Shaun Bonstra and the voice of prophecy.

[00:09:36]In the early 4th century, there was this event that forever changed the course of the Christian church in the west. And of course, I'm talking about the nominal conversion of Constantine. I say it was nominal because he really didn't change very much. He continued to murder his own family members for political reasons, and he actually stalled his own baptism until he was pretty much on his own deathbed. But all that aside, what happened is that Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, which meant two things. One, the Roman persecution against Christians suddenly stopped. And two, it became incredibly trendy for a while to become a Christian. And what that meant was that lots of highranking Roman pagans suddenly said they were Christians, but what they were doing was trying to gain social favor. I mean, if the emperor is Christian, it couldn't possibly hurt your career to join him in his religion. So, lots of people did.

[00:10:39]Now, that's not to say that Constantine didn't do anything good because in a lot of ways, his conversion actually helped the church, but it also created an atmosphere ripe for compromise. The blending of pagan and Christian beliefs.

[00:10:55]And then of course the Germanic tribe known as the Franks converted to Christianity beginning with Clovis in the sixth century and they literally became the pope's standing army by the time we get to guys like Pepin or Charlemagne in the latter part of the 8th century. And what these guys did unfortunately was force their pagan neighbors to adopt Christianity essentially at the point of a sword. So now people like the Saxons and eventually the Vikings, they also joined the ranks of the Christian church sometimes for all the wrong reasons. In fact, in some places the Vikings adopted Christianity up to a point just because it was illegal for Christians in the north of Germany to do business with them. So the church created a special ritual. We're not exactly sure what it was, but they called it primo signatio and it was the first step toward joining the Christian church without actually requiring baptism. A lot of scholars think that it was simply making these guys make the sign of the cross which suddenly made you a legitimate business partner. But in reality, most of these people still kept their pagan customs.

[00:12:10]And over time, the church simply Christianized those customs and wo them into the Christian belief system. Now, sometimes it was completely harmless, like the names of the days of the week.

[00:12:22]We're still using those, but other times it created a real theological mess, like with the doctrine of hell. The version that most people talk about with the fiery caves and the devil torturing people, that honestly looks more like pagan mythology than it does the teachings of the Bible. But of course, that's not immediately obvious to a lot of people because, well, the Bible really does speak of a final judgment on this planet and it does mention fire in conjunction with that. In fact, some of the language seems to underscore the idea that it's everlasting torment and that people will flip and fry throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. But here's what I want to suggest. I think we're reading those passages with a great deal of hindsight and we're seeing our popular conception of hell in places where it might not actually be there.

[00:13:16]And I know I'm about to tread on really thin ice because there are a lot of Christians who for some reason really love the doctrine of hell. And they love the idea that unbelievers are going to burn for all eternity. In fact, I remember one guy I was talking to about 30 years ago who suddenly got out of his chair and blurted out, "God's going to make those people suffer, and that makes me want to praise him." Honestly, it left the room in a bit of stunned silence because he said it with such a tone of vindictiveness that I think even the most determined hellfire and brimstone preacher might have felt a little bit uncomfortable.

[00:13:53]So maybe let's start there with the misguided notion that God is eager to destroy us because well it it doesn't make a lot of sense when you see the lengths to which God went in order to save us. The most famous verse in the Bible says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." And a few chapters later, we find Jesus saying, "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." So this idea that God is eager to get rid of us, doesn't make much sense. The price he paid to secure your place in his kingdom is so exorbitantly high that you'd have to believe that he wouldn't be eager to lose you. I mean, God is not an unwise investor. The fact is, he's moving heaven and earth to get you into his kingdom. And that's not the behavior of somebody who's eager to torture you. It doesn't add up. And the way some people talk about hell, you'd think that God's going to enjoy watching people writhe in agony, that he's some kind of sadist who relishes pain and suffering. But what you find in the Bible is the opposite. I mean, here, listen to this from Ezekiel 33 where God is really worried that his people are going off the rails. And just listen to the agony in his voice where he says, "Well, as I live, declares the Lord God.

[00:15:22]I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back. Turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die, oh house of Israel?"

[00:15:33]So, right out of the gate, we can see that some of the basic assumptions we have about the nature of hell are not founded on the Bible. We've mixed pagan beliefs about the underworld with our biblical understanding of what actually happens and the result has been somewhat monstrous.

[00:15:53]Now, just in case there's somebody who's worried there that I'm going to prove to be a rank heretic, let me be perfectly clear. I do believe in the doctrine of hellfire. I absolutely do. But I also have no choice but to base my understanding of it on what the scriptures actually say. I think these days the world of religion is confusing enough without Christians adding to the confusion and as a Christian I want to be absolutely certain that what I believe is founded on the scriptures.

[00:16:22]Now there are things I don't understand but there are also some areas where the weight of biblical evidence is so overwhelming that I can rest assured that I'm teaching what Jesus himself believed. And this is one of those areas. But to do this subject justice and to give you a chance to explore it for yourself, I'm going to slow way down and maybe spend two shows on this because it's just that important. And here's my challenge to you. Never take my word for anything. Check what I'm saying against the Bible. And if I'm wrong, you stick with the Bible and forget what I said. I do not claim to be infallible and I am anything but error-free on any subject. So, always take what any minister says with a huge grain of salt and then get a Bible and do your homework. There's enough confusion in the world of religion right now that you simply can't afford to do otherwise. And if what I'm about to share with you is true, then it will bear up under scrutiny. And I'm absolutely not afraid to have you check what I'm saying against the Bible because this book is the final court of appeal when it comes to the teachings of Christianity. In fact, it's the only court of appeal. So, with that very important disclaimer, let's get started.

[00:17:46]I told you a moment ago that I do believe in the doctrine of hell, and that's because the Bible clearly teaches it, but not the way that many people think it does. Here's what it actually says in Revelation 20:15.

[00:18:00]And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. So in in other words, the Bible really does draw a distinction between the saved and the lost. And it does not agree with the modern trend towards universalism. This idea that well, everybody makes it in the end. In the Bible, the book of life is a record of the redeemed. And honestly, given the incredible lengths to which God has gone to secure your spot in that book of life, I can't imagine why anybody wouldn't want to be there. But ultimately, God doesn't force you into his kingdom. That's not the way he is. It was the way of the medieval church, but it's not God's way. So, do I believe in the fires of hell? Yep, I do.

[00:18:48]But there's more to the story. And right after we take this quick break, I'll show that to you.

[00:18:55]>> Life can throw a lot at us. Sometimes we don't have all the answers.

[00:19:01]But that's where the Bible comes in.

[00:19:03]It's our guide to a more fulfilling life. Here at The Voice of Prophecy, we've created the Discover Bible Guides to be your guide to the Bible. They're designed to be simple, easy to use, and provide answers to many of life's toughest questions. And they're absolutely free. Sign up at biblestudies.com today and start your journey of discovery.

[00:19:26]>> This is Authentic with Shaun Bonstra and the voice of prophecy.

[00:19:30]>> Now, if you remember the questions raised by my online skeptic, one of them ran like this. She said, "If you knew that the vast majority of humans you created would end up in hell, why did you create them? Why did you create hell?" And of course, the implication is that God created hell to torture us. And when it comes right down to it, the way we as Christians have taught this doctrine over the centuries, you'd think that God created hell to get even with naughty children. And while I don't doubt there are some parents who managed to secure a degree of cooperation from their kids by threatening them with the prospect of eternal torment, the way we've been teaching this, it's way off base.

[00:20:11]Let me give you a good example of what I'm talking about. What I'm about to read to you unbelievably comes from a series of books written for children back in the 19th century. And I'm sure the author meant well, but the second book he wrote was called The Sight of Hell, where he invites little kids to join him on a tour of hell. Oddly enough, the author's last name was Furnace, spelled differently, but still a little ironic. So, here's what he wrote. For little kids, you might want to buckle your seat belt. The book says, "Look into this prison. In the middle of it, there is a boy, a young man. He is silent. Despair is on him. He stands straight up. His eyes are burning like two burning coals. Two long flames come out of his ears. His breathing is difficult. Sometimes he opens his mouth and a breath of blazing fire rolls out of it. But listen, there's a sound just like that of a kettle boiling. Is it really a kettle boiling? No. Then what is it? The blood is boiling in the scalded veins of that boy. The brain is boiling and bubbling in his head. The marrow is boiling in his bones. Now that is pretty brutal. And I've got to think that even the most hardened Turner burn preacher is going to have a problem with that. And honestly, this is the stuff that the skeptics are responding to because from where they sit, there's no way you can reconcile that kind of writing with the notion of a loving God.

[00:21:40]Now, to be sure, a lot of people have a rather warped idea of what love is supposed to be. And the Bible's concept of love is not the sloppy sentimentalism of the Victorian period.

[00:21:51]But even then, how do you reconcile the idea of love and a God who creates a place to torture naughty children forever and ever and ever without any end? That was really the question my online skeptic was asking. Why would God make hell for us? And the biblical answer is he didn't. I know Pat Benitar used to sing hell is for children, but it isn't. And I know she was singing about something else. I'm taking it out of context, but I just had to slip that in somehow. What about this idea that God created hell to torture us? Well, listen to what the Bible actually says, and listen very carefully. These are the words of Jesus in Matthew 25.

[00:22:35]Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Now wait a minute. Prepared for who? The devil and his angels. The truth is that not one human being was ever supposed to be in hell. The way the Bible tells the story in Revelation 12, the dragon or the devil leads onethird of the angels in a rebellion against God. And what Jesus says in Matthew 25 is that the fires of hell were designed for them. The only problem is that a lot of people seem determined to follow those fallen angels all the way to their ultimate destination, which is how we end up in the same place.

[00:23:20]But the truth is, it wasn't designed for us. So it's not as if God when he created the world created an eternal torture chamber for bad people. That's how the skeptics talk about it. Sadly, it's also the way that a lot of Christians talk about it, but biblically, try and find it. Now, I'm really taking my time with this, and we're going to spread it over more than one show because this is so very important. In fact, I think this might be the number one grudge that a lot of people hold against God. And what my internet skeptic asked is a valid question. Why would God create a place to torture us forever? What sense would it make to put people there when there's no chance of learning your lesson or changing your mind? That's a good question, and I want to make sure that we address it. And when it's all said and done, there's a chance that you might still not believe in the God of the Bible, but at the very least, you owe it to yourself to make sure you're actually critiquing the Bible and not a bunch of medieval folklore. And if you're a Christian, I want to challenge you to make sure you absolutely know what the Bible says so you don't find yourself repeating medieval mythology and unwittingly adding to the massive pile of misconceptions about God that have kept people away from church. But right now, I've got to take a really quick break. So, I'll be right back after this.

[00:24:47]Dragons, beasts, cryptic statues.

[00:24:52]If you've ever read Daniel a Revelation and come away scratching your head, you're not alone. Voice of Prophecy's free focus on Prophecy guides are designed to help you unlock the prophetic mysteries of the Bible and deepen your understanding of God's plan for you and the world around you. You can study online or request them by mail. Visit biblestudies.com and start bringing prophecy into focus today.

[00:25:16]Welcome back. It's Authentic with Shaun Bonstra and the voice of prophecy.

[00:25:22]>> You know, the way I understand what happened to Robert Ingresol, his hatred for God had something to do with his pastor dad and the way his dad talked about hell. It's entirely possible this story has been stretched a little bit, and it might even be urban legend, but apparently one day little Robert's dad got mad about something and sat him down to talk about the terrible consequences of sin. Look, if you keep doing things like that, his dad said, God's going to send you to the fires of hell where you're going to burn forever without any mercy, without any end. To which Robert Ingresol replied, "Well, if that's what God is like, then I hate him." Now, of course, I got that story from another preacher, and it might not actually be true, but it bears repeating because it represents the thinking of an awful lot of people. What kind of sadistic god says, "Do things my way or I'll torture you?" It's a valid question, and it's one I believe I can answer if you'll give me the benefit of a couple of shows. Because while there really is a biblical answer, we're going to have to do a lot of work to find it. So, be patient, do yourself a favor, and commit to watching the other episodes that deal with this subject. So, here's what we've established so far. First off, the Bible makes it clear that God hates suffering and he hates the thought of losing you, especially after paying such a high price to save you. There is no sadism, no cruel enjoyment of pain on the part of God or the Bible. It's an important idea that came from sources other than the scriptures.

[00:26:55]Secondly, we saw that hellfire is quite real and it's tied to the way that God deals with people who do not wish to be a part of his kingdom. That much is crystal clear from Revelation 20:15.

[00:27:08]But then we also saw that hellfire was never part of God's original plan for the human race. It was designed for fallen angels. And the only way human beings get there is to follow those wicked angels to their fate. Now, all of that, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more that we're going to unpack from the pages of the Bible, and you're going to have to wait until next week to get the rest of this story. In the meantime, head on over to voice of prophecy.com, look at the show tab, and catch up on some of the other programs we've been offering. Maybe look for the Speak of the Devil program for a little more background on this subject. And while you're there, consider keeping us on the air. Just push that big orange donate button at the top right hand of the page. Thanks for joining me. I'm Sean Bonstra and you've been watching another edition of Authentic.

[00:28:05]>> You've been listening to Authentic, sponsored by Voice of Prophecy.

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