Morality Without God || A Conversation with Two Former Christian Ministers

Added: 2026-06-11

[00:00:00]Hey everybody, Timmy Gibson here with you. My friend Kyle Hass, you guys love him, he's back with us to talk about morality. But before we get started, my name is Timmy. Former fundamental evangelical Bible thumpin', tongue talkin', Holy Ghost rollin' pastor.

[00:00:15]Spent eight 17, 18 years as a pastor.

[00:00:18]Previous to that, youth pastor, student pastor, and then was even an evangelist for a minute.

[00:00:23]So, uh spent 48 years as an evangelical Christian. I'm now atheist, couldn't be happier. And uh yeah, thanks for for joining us. Kyle, do you want to introduce yourself?

[00:00:32]>> Yeah, uh I became a Christian in high school, went to Bible college, same Bible college as Timmy. And in 2017, went through the licensure process. In 2018, was applying to the missions field, and that's when I decided I didn't really believe anymore. And by 2019, I was full-blown atheist.

[00:00:52]It's hard to be a pastor and atheist.

[00:00:55]>> It is. It is. I was admittedly, this may have been good talk for the other video, but uh closeted atheist for about a year, so.

[00:01:03]>> Yeah.

[00:01:04]>> [laughter] >> Hiding in secret. Did you think maybe that there was a potential that you just wouldn't go through with it? Like, did you think you might come back? Like, maybe you were just backslidden?

[00:01:13]Or were you just scared to just get it out there, and you knew you was I knew Yeah, for me, it was not a slow process.

[00:01:20]Uh I like first 2 months, uh you know, liberal Christian, like in terms of spiritual views, liberal Christian. I was already kind of liberal in political, but you know, yeah, I can sleep with my girlfriend, God doesn't really care about that. Just ask God to forgive you. That's what we're going to talk about here in a second.

[00:01:36]2 months after that, it was spiritual agnostic, and then 2 months after So, yeah, in probably about 6 months, I was like, I'm an atheist, and I don't think it's going to change. Yeah.

[00:01:45]Yeah. Yeah, mine was just very gradual, too. Just a gradual falling away, if you will, and until I finally was like It's For me, it was like the lights just came on, and I saw it.

[00:01:57]It was just like, oh, it's a myth. Yeah.

[00:02:01]You know what I mean? It was It wasn't like It was just like, oh, Santa's not real.

[00:02:08]Yeah. You know, like I'm never going back to Maybe Santa is real, Kyle. And like, that's never happening. That's how it is for me. It's like, no, like I No.

[00:02:18]I think weirdly, I kind of deconstructed before I made like years before, and it was just I needed that final shove to be like, all right, I'm done with this >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:27]>> [laughter] >> Ha ha.

[00:02:28]So, speaking of the the sleeping with your girlfriend, asking for forgiveness, probably one of the common comments. I even had a someone ask this question, and I figured I'd just do a video on it, and and with Kyle, cuz I think it'd be great.

[00:02:42]Basically, is, how can you have an absolute truth? Now, as an atheist, Timmy, how can you say with certainty that something is wrong or something is right? You know, it's the the the That's a common, you know, without God, there's no morality. You got to have a standard, and I don't have I mean, I have an answer for that, but I don't I I One, I'm just like, well, I'm I'm an atheist.

[00:03:07]I'm I'm more moral now than I ever was.

[00:03:10]You know, now, granted, when I was a Christian, you know, you think masturbation is wrong. You think But what you consider immoral Right, right.

[00:03:17]So, what I think is immoral is is definitely changed. Specifically as an evangelical, like a no drinking, no smoking, no, you know, like all the stuff that I clearly don't think anything's wrong with any of that stuff anymore, obviously.

[00:03:31]Um but yet, I'm a I'm a I'm more honest.

[00:03:34]Yeah. Like I I tell the truth. Um you know, there's just so many things that I'm just better for, and we were talking about this off camera.

[00:03:43]There's something so immoral about Christianity, to where I mean, look around. Look at the news. I mean, pastors are guilty of everything you can be guilty of. You know, I just watched a recent uh crime show where a pastor murdered his wife, and he was praying when the cops got there.

[00:04:05]Like Yeah, yeah. It's like Clearly, the church doesn't have the corner market on morality, first off, which I know everybody stands and falls short of the glory of God. I get it, no one's perfect. I understand that excuse, but it seems like Christianity almost gives people an excuse to do things, because they know they can just ask God to They think they know. They can ask God to forgive them, and God will forgive them, and wash them clean of that sin.

[00:04:32]>> Yeah. Is that Do you think that's a Christian thing, or do you think that's just Is that just a me [laughter] thing? It's a bit of both. So, it was interesting, cuz we were kind of talking earlier about how in the Christian church, you have to kind of hide some of your natural tendencies. And I do think a lot of it kind of comes back to your position in the church. You know, if you're a layperson in the church, and you have you know, you're looking at porn, you do kind of have to hide that.

[00:04:56]If you're a big tall evangelist, yeah, You don't tell people you meet with strippers.

[00:05:01]>> No. But you can get caught, and then potentially save your career, cuz you've got a big enough like I think Jimmy Swaggart Yep. he had one. He got caught, and then finally, like the second or third time, they finally were like, yeah, you you're done. You're done. So, I think uh yeah, I think depending on where you stand in the church's social hierarchy, which obviously, you know, maybe the church isn't supposed to have, is how you navigate some of those issues, for sure. But I do think that yeah, for some, the forgiveness, the demand of forgiveness and mercy in every situation has allowed them to get away with things without making a change.

[00:05:44]>> Yeah.

[00:05:45]That's not always so beneficial, for sure. Which Yeah, it doesn't seem to be moral. I mean, I'm all for forgiveness in the sense of if, you know, you're my friend, you wronged me, I want to preserve that relationship, I'm going to forgive you, so we can continue being friends.

[00:06:00]>> But if you go out, and you just, you know, murder somebody, great, then for God forgives you, you should still be in prison. I don't want you near Yeah, I'm not Society maybe shouldn't forgive you.

[00:06:12]>> Yeah. Or be Or you're being accused of or potentially guilty of, even you get you know, Russell Brand's story. Russell Brand, who's also now >> Admittedly, when he He admitted it, he said it. So, this is not I mean, he said it. He was in his 30s, and slept with a 16-year-old, and he said he thought it was consensual, you know, and Well, I think what they're saying is that the In England, I think that was the legal age of consent at the time. Oh.

[00:06:37]Yeah. So, may have been legal. Yeah.

[00:06:41]Good idea.

[00:06:43]Right, yeah.

[00:06:44]>> Yeah. Not Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, right? And then And then Russell Brand.

[00:06:48]There's a great scripture I want to share with you. What He was on Piers Morgan.

[00:06:52]>> Yeah, that he couldn't find.

[00:06:53]>> Yeah, and he's like, it's in the book of Isaiah. And he just kept doing this.

[00:06:57]Yeah.

[00:07:00]And he was probably looking at the book of Judges and then >> [laughter] >> I'm like, what is going on right now?

[00:07:07]You know, but so, we were talking about that, and I said, you know, I Do you think it's a grift, or what's going on?

[00:07:11]You know, I don't know Russell Brand, of course, you know, I Whatever, he's funny. Uh he's out there, he's a conspiratorial person, you know, so obviously, I don't resonate with any of his stuff. And then of course, then he when he became Christian, I was like, what a curious time to become a Christian when you're being accused of all these shameful things, um by by by everybody's standard. And you know, all of a sudden, now he's he's Christian, and asked God to forgive him, and and you know, he's now dedicated himself to the Lord, you know, and there's this thing in the Bible that's like, all things have passed away, behold, all things become new. You know, you're a new creation in Christ.

[00:07:48]It's like, so now you can't attach all of the sin that I did to me, because I'm a new creation now.

[00:07:55]It's Clearly, it's People should be held accountable for their crimes.

[00:08:02]You know, and you can't get saved and be exonerated of the crimes that you committed.

[00:08:08]>> Which he did bring the Bible into the courtroom, which is what he was trying to find on Piers Morgan, was the quote that he used from the Bible. But yeah, I know, if you had sex with a child, that's a crime.

[00:08:21]>> Yeah. Even if it wasn't technically a crime, it probably should be. Yeah. Uh not probably.

[00:08:27]>> The only 16-year-olds that I've ever been with is when I was 16 years old.

[00:08:31]You know what I mean? Like, that's when you're that age. That's okay when you're also the same peer group. But yeah, when you're twice their age having sex with them, that's not great. No. That That's wrong. Don't do that. Yeah. I mean, unless they're an adult, I guess, you know.

[00:08:45]30-year-old having sex with a 60-year-old, I don't think so bad.

[00:08:48]>> Yeah, right. Yeah.

[00:08:50]Yeah, it's it's so curious, man. I I And again, I don't know if he's I don't know if it's a grift or not. You know, if I was a betting man, I would bet that it is.

[00:09:00]Um but it might be genuine and sincere from him, because I remember being a Christian, right? And so, like I really genuinely believed it. And And I did bad things, and would ask God to forgive me, and I genuinely believed that God would forgive me, and I was really trying to live right, and all that. So, I can I can understand how the delusion works, cuz I was in the delusion. So, I I understand that. But again, I don't know Russell Brand, and and it it seems just What's the word?

[00:09:31]Conspicuous? It seems awfully wild that it's happening at this time.

[00:09:36]You know, why wasn't he living his life for Jesus way back when?

[00:09:40]Um and I think it was because it didn't serve him.

[00:09:44]Well, I mean, that's kind of the theme right now, in that like What is Hegseth? What's his name? Pete Hegseth?

[00:09:51]>> Yeah, when he quoted the verse from Pulp Fiction, which actually isn't in the Bible, >> [laughter] >> to justify the what the eradication of Iran. Yes. Yeah, so I mean is that How did that That is crazy that they allowed that to happen? Well, and you still got people conservative Christians that are still It's just That's the morality you want to represent is eradicating another nation based on a Bible verse that's not even in the Bible.

[00:10:22]Can I read you something out of 2 Corinthians? Sure.

[00:10:24]>> [laughter] >> 2 Corinthians says That's what the president called Oh, 2 seconds of a second Corinthians.

[00:10:32]2 Corinthians? It's like you can't even talk right. Like what is this?

[00:10:36]Oh, do you know what? I did not know this and I guess this has to do with morality because it's all tied in together. I listened to a podcast.

[00:10:46]I I didn't really know it was or wasn't.

[00:10:47]I I just was kind of I don't know what what's up, you know, everybody's like America is a Christian nation born on Christian No, it's not.

[00:10:56]No. Well, you can say that the West has taken Christian values as the base, but America is not a Christian nation.

[00:11:05]Right. If you're a Christian, you shouldn't want it to be. Right. Because anytime we have a theocracy, that theocracy dictates how you get to worship. Yeah. And so our theocracy happens to be more specific of a certain denomination, they're going to say certain views are correct and that may not align with your spiritual views.

[00:11:25]Yeah. And that kind of goes back to the other point of Christians do not have the market on objective morality because they don't agree on what morality is.

[00:11:33]So, morality cannot be anything but subjective. It cannot be anything but perceptual.

[00:11:40]Now, when we come to why we have morality, I think that it is an evolved feature of our species so that we can navigate each other because we are extremely social and Christianity instead of being the origin of morality is really just a product of our need for social structure and therefore any values within Christianity are more I guess you could say product of our biology and therefore not any more founded than any other view that's ever existed.

[00:12:15]Right, because if you use the Bible for morality, that Well, you can't. The Bible supports slavery. The Bible supports if your child whatever it's chop his hand off. I would say we are a post-Christian morality society in the sense of >> Yeah. Yeah, we it was maybe advanced in terms of its moral structure for a long time in parts of history, which is why the West has largely been as successful as it was. It did give us a framework in which we could all agree to and work within.

[00:12:47]But as we continue to advance and evolve and have a more complete and compassionate sense of the world around us, those moral stances don't hold up and many of those moral stances Christians try to avoid in their own mind and certainly no longer believe. I was part of progressive Christianity. My pastor was a woman. I my uh young adult leader was also a woman. You know, we would have feminist conversations.

[00:13:18]Very progressive area and especially for We were Yeah.

[00:13:24]uh But that wasn't always the view of Christianity. They were viewing it as objective morality that Well, a woman couldn't teach a man.

[00:13:34]Strictly If you're going to take the Bible as literal like evangelical typically that I'm a literalist, the Bible's literally true.

[00:13:43]No.

[00:13:44]You don't take the Bible literally.

[00:13:46]Yeah. Like that's just such a stupid thing to say. I just It's black and white. If it says in the Bible, I believe it and that settles it. That is the most moronic things to say. And then yeah, you see all the things that they don't take. Right. [laughter] Yeah.

[00:14:02]Yeah.

[00:14:03]A lot of it is also just American Christianity. The Holiness Movement has definitely influenced a lot of Christian values and that was what back in the 1900s when that first happened where you couldn't drink and cuz I mean Christians were drinking for forever, Catholics and wine. Right. And marijuana was involved somewhere in some of the altars they found there was THC in some of the altars. Wow, it's something I knew you didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know that.

[00:14:29]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, in churches like they were finding like beer, wheat, you know, different things for beer and then also THC and yeah, crazy.

[00:14:37]Uh and you know, psychedelics, you Yeah, I heard ergotized beer was used in some places within the early church, which could cause hallucinations. Yeah.

[00:14:47]I see Jesus.

[00:14:48]>> [laughter] >> And a burning bush. This is great. Can I have more of this?

[00:14:54]>> [laughter] >> I'm stoned out of your mind.

[00:14:56]>> Yeah. Yeah, the the cuz that that is something I hear a lot.

[00:15:00]How can you I've even heard someone was debating Christopher Hitchens.

[00:15:05]And of course, you know, his thing was, you know, you can't tell me that before the Mount Mount Sinai that people were just completely living unbridled, untethered lives and then after the 10 Commandments are like, "Oh, so now we can't do you know whatever that morality preexists God. I mean that you know, this is something that Well, it probably, you know, again, we don't really know what ancient people believed in terms of religion, but there's evidence that uh as far back I think I'm trying to think of the age of the skulls. Again, Homo erectus, ancient.

[00:15:42]>> So, over a million years old, they were caring for their old. Huh, that's So, you know, there is that sense of compassion within humans potentially even before formalized Definitely before formalized religion.

[00:15:55]Yeah. That there was some conviction to care about the people in your life. Yeah. Now, there were still a lot of tribalism and I think that's what really informs our moral sense is our ability to feel empathy combined with our very tribalistic tendencies and so that's how we across history and time have determined who what actions are immoral and what actions are moral and then even in the Bible, you know, the Israelites they did not equally apply their morality.

[00:16:29]>> No. There was a sense of tribalism there and that's been true with Christianity.

[00:16:33]I mean that's even true in modern politics where you have, you know, maybe humanists that can still be somewhat tribalistic, somewhat uh bought into a sort of cult-like devotion to their ideals. Yeah. Is is the argument is it subjective and an objective and an objective truth meaning true for all people everywhere all the time? Is that objective? Yeah, I think that's what Christians mean is that Like you can't have objective truth without God. Yeah. And that I can't That doesn't even make sense in my mind. So, yeah, in terms of social constructs, none of them are probably going to be objectively true in the way that Christians try to present them.

[00:17:17]But there is an underlying need for our species to have social constructs in order to continue to be successful.

[00:17:25]Yeah. And those social constructs again allow us to build societies and potentially allow us to align ourselves with a wider I think it was in the book Sapiens they said that we were kind of capped out at about 150 million or not 100 150 individuals within a group until our ability to create more complex myths as the book says allowed us to organize larger groups of people and so that's where we started to really I think evolve a complex moral sense and so that's why we've created these moral ideas and then Christianity some 2,000 years ago thought that they just had the monopoly on morality.

[00:18:11]When in reality, their whole view is just a product of this evolutionary feature that we have that we need to have in order to be as successful as we are. Okay, that helps me make sense of it because I again I've heard that question on so many debates, you know, without God, how can you say murder is wrong?

[00:18:33]Absolutely, you know, absolutely wrong.

[00:18:36]You have to have You have to have an an absolute moral authority is what they say.

[00:18:41]And yeah, I just, you know, I don't look at the Bible God as moral.

[00:18:47]I mean like just read the Bible. Like it's not moral. What constituted murder in the Bible was tribalism, too, right?

[00:18:55]There were people they killed all the time. Not just God drowned. Not just God doing it in the beginning of He ordered his own people to do it.

[00:19:03]And they did do it a lot. You know, they took women for their wives, which was probably not all that It wasn't consenting.

[00:19:13]So, I mean Yeah, it was never an objective morality. It was a tribalistic morality and it has mostly been a tribalistic morality and even in that sphere, there have been multiple other mini spheres inside of that in terms of how that morality has been interpreted.

[00:19:34]Yeah. Because not every Christian views morality in the same way. Like I said, I was a part of a church that thought it was completely moral for women to preach.

[00:19:43]Not every church thinks that. Some churches think it is immoral for women to preach. Yeah. So, yeah, to say it's objective and it's equally applied even if there is an objective morality out there it's still based on our own perception of it. And we're not going to get it right. So more Christian coming up to me and saying they know what objective No, you don't.

[00:20:03]Yeah. You don't even believe what your faith believed 2,000 years ago. Right.

[00:20:09]So. Yeah, their very own religion has evolved.

[00:20:12]>> Yes. I mean goodness gracious. I mean it's evolved since when I was a kid. You know, I remember hearing things that that you would never hear someone say that today unless it was a little backwardsy weird, you know, 20-member church all the same family kind of thing. I mean that you know, it's like we've evolved past that, you know, to be more whatever. Well, and that's why I think Christians also really don't like or try to rationalize the verses where, you know, Jesus is saying be a good slave more or less.

[00:20:43]Or yeah, or the the verses where Paul says I don't permit a woman to teach and then there's always more context we find so that it can be more in line with modern viewpoints.

[00:20:55]>> Yeah, well what he meant was Yeah, now we've got it right. For us 2,000 years for the last 2,000 years we've been wrong, but now this is the interpretation. Paul was writing to women actually in the church that were leading the church and he wasn't telling them to shut up and sit down. He was just saying that some of these women should No, no. He was He was probably writing to those women. That's why they were addressed in the letter. Yeah. And then he said women should not teach.

[00:21:22]Again, I'm not saying that that's right.

[00:21:24]I think that's sexist, but and I'm glad that Christians are adapting their views to more modern morality.

[00:21:33]>> But >> Sure. I don't think that the Bible is a modern moral document. And that's well then especially using the word modern, you know, anytime I've which I don't get I don't go to church obviously, but I've been in the church for weddings or different things.

[00:21:47]It just seems archaic.

[00:21:50]There's there's such a throwback. It's like you go and you're like am I in the 1980s? You know what I mean?

[00:21:56]There's just not just the look of the church. I just the things that they think are trendy.

[00:22:01]The things that they you know, tonight we're talking about how it could possibly be okay to be gay. Let's talk.

[00:22:08]It's like we've already decided a long time ago this is okay. What's your problem?

[00:22:14]I think Christian music is a pretty good I never liked Christian rock. I'm like this is the most Just I don't know.

[00:22:22]And I'm still hearing every now and then so I go to a gym and sometimes the channel will be on a Christian radio station. I'm like these are the same songs that they've been playing for the last 30 years.

[00:22:33]Same Phil Wickham song, same Michael W.

[00:22:36]And uh you know, I Who's the Amazing Grace, but it's like the new it's a different version. Oh gosh, yeah, I can't even think. My mind's just going all over the place. I can't even think, but Chris Tomlin.

[00:22:50]>> Yeah, there we go. Chris Tomlin.

[00:22:53]Yeah, same same. Yeah, they Yeah, they are kind of stuck in time every now and then in some churches for sure.

[00:23:00]Maybe Stryper's coming back.

[00:23:03]Did you ever Do you know who Stryper is?

[00:23:04]Oh gosh, I'll have to show you after the show. Look up Stryper everybody. S T R Y P E R. Stryper. It was a Christian rock band. They used to sing songs like to hell [singing] with the devil. And then they throw bibles out in the crowd.

[00:23:20]And then I've told the story before, but it's just worth telling. A friend of mine that's or a now a friend of mine is actually one of my wife's band members is a rock star and in his town back in the late 80s Stryper came to town. Yeah.

[00:23:38]The next morning he went over to his stripper girlfriend's house and guess who was there? Stryper.

[00:23:43]Stryper. Yep.

[00:23:45]He's getting freaky. He's living that rock star lifestyle even as Christians.

[00:23:50]I wonder if they gave those girls bibles. Maybe.

[00:23:53]Autographed them. They made them say oh god. That's He got them to pray. I love it.

[00:24:00]Oh man. Well, hey man.

[00:24:02]>> he didn't. Maybe he wasn't >> [laughter] >> Maybe he tried to act like he wasn't Stryper. Who is Stryper?

[00:24:08]Oh my gosh. Well, man, it's always a pleasure having you on and talking about these things.

[00:24:13]Uh if you ever want to hear Kyle and I uh take some time to talk about a certain topic, you know, make a comment in the video below and let us know. And uh yeah, what what do you think? A couple things I'm curious what you guys think.

[00:24:25]What I'm I'm curious what you think about Russell Brand. Do you think he's Is he grifting? Do you think he's sincere or is it both?

[00:24:31]Um but this whole idea of of Christians using repentance and forgiveness as a way to kind of excuse their immoral life. Uh I think that's I think that's a real interesting topic, you know, I really do.

[00:24:46]Um I've said it before, you know, I'm a better person as an atheist. I just I'm I'm just a better person. I mean I Um I honestly wouldn't even just off I wouldn't offer that information if that wasn't true.

[00:24:57]Um So I don't know what that's all about. I don't know I just value I somehow as >> You're doing things because you understand the merit in them and not because God said. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I don't believe in hell, so it's not like you know. Right, you're being good to people not because God said, but because you understand that being good to people has is good.

[00:25:19]>> Yeah, is the good [laughter] thing to do. You can actually actually empathize with them and being honest has meaning and not just because God saw but because integrity means something to you.

[00:25:29]Because your word should mean something to you. I did think when I was a Christian that if I wasn't a Christian I would be unbridled like untethered.

[00:25:40]Like Like if you'd have asked me if Jesus wasn't in your life well I said man I'd be going crazy.

[00:25:46]I used to really think that. And then when I [clears throat] became an atheist I'm like no, I still don't want to you know.

[00:25:53]I knew I'd be boring either way.

[00:25:55]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, it's like like the day I became an atheist I wasn't like you know what? I think it is time I am going to go knock off a bank.

[00:26:03]>> Yeah. Like that just had never come to my mind, you know.

[00:26:07]And even if even if and this is so hypothetical, but even if cuz I'm thinking there's some things that could happen in our world that would really change things and I would be glad that I have ammunition and guns and all that stuff to protect the homestead.

[00:26:24]Um cuz you've you know, I've seen this in in what I've heard in places where there's been massive floods and the police are kind of not available and there's a lot of crazy things going on if that's all true. Like in New Orleans I think when all that happened or Baton Rouge or somewhere.

[00:26:38]Anyway, like I if there were if today there was no police force in where I live I'm still not going to go rob people and beat people up and do like I would not do that. Yeah. Even if there were no police. I don't I have no interest in doing that. Now I know there are people that would do that and you should Yeah. You should You should go You should go check yourself in right now and be put behind the bars now to protect all of us from you, but you know what I mean? Would you? I mean >> No, well no, I didn't didn't choose anybody. Yeah, I feel probably more connected to people now than I have in a long time. So Yeah.

[00:27:20]Well, guys again comments discuss below.

[00:27:23]Let us know what you think. We appreciate you joining us today. Peace everybody.