First Minister's Questions (Party Leaders) - 4 June 2026

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[00:00:00]Thank you. That concludes general uh questions and apologies to those members I was unable to call. The next item of business is First Minister questions for party leaders. And the first question is from Malcolm Offord.

[00:00:15]>> Thank you, Presiding Officer.

[00:00:17]The internationally respected Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland has just stated that Scotland's income tax is overly complex and is making our economy less competitive.

[00:00:28]This mirrors Reform Scotland's policy position as set out in our recent manifesto. So, will the First Minister now graciously accept that we have won the argument on tax?

[00:00:40]Will he now implement Reform Scotland's Mr. Flynn, I was asking the First Minister to be gracious. I don't expect that from you.

[00:00:49]And will he now implement And will he now And will he now implement And will he now implement Reform Scotland's plan to cut six income tax to three and further reduce each band by 1 pence below England?

[00:01:02]>> First Minister.

[00:01:06]>> Well, it's it's it's a it's a daring and bold attempt from Lord Offord to try to get me to um to accept his point of view, but I'm afraid I will resist the temptation because if I was to accept his point of view, I'd have to accept swinging cuts in public expenditure and I have no intention of doing that.

[00:01:28]>> Malcolm Offord.

[00:01:30]So, Presiding Officer, it is indeed early days in this seventh Holyrood Parliament. But in all the preliminary debates so far, there's been one dominant theme, just referred to by the First Minister, which is the demand to spend more money.

[00:01:46]Does the First Minister accept that if he wants more money for public services, he'll actually raise more tax revenue if he cuts tax rates to allow the economy to grow.

[00:01:57]>> First Minister.

[00:02:00]>> I I don't accept that model because I think the reality that Malcolm Offord puts to me is that to do what he wants to do would have to involve very significant immediate reductions in public expenditure and that would be enormously damaging to people who rely on our public services. Now, what I I Mr. Offord is correct. These are early days in this Parliament and as he knows my party's mandate was to set out uh a willingness to do a number of things on tax. First of all, not to increase the rates or to increase the number of bands. We also said that we would give an absolute commitment that the majority of taxpayers in Scotland would pay less in taxation than in the rest of the United Kingdom and of course that is our sustained position which we deliver and it's important that we deliver that point. But we also said that over the course of the Parliament we would look for opportunities to simplify the tax system. As Mr. Offord may have uh uh picked up from the comments I've been making publicly at the CBI event a couple of weeks ago or at the Prosper conference this this morning where I laid the heaviest emphasis on the importance of the government taking the measures which we will take to encourage and motivate growth in the economy cuz if we have a strong economy, we can have strong public services and that's the social democratic contact I deliver to the people of Scotland.

[00:03:27]>> Malcolm Offord.

[00:03:28]>> [applause] >> So it is well proven around the world that too high taxes drive away the highest taxpayers.

[00:03:37]And we have a live example of this today.

[00:03:40]Nicola Sturgeon is a very wealthy Scott who has cut her tax burden by paying herself through dividends thus avoiding PAYE and national insurance and now moving to London to enjoy lower English taxes.

[00:03:53]So, does the First Minister agree that this point proves that Scotland's record high taxes are driving away our most talented Scots?

[00:04:01]I mean, why on earth why on earth did she leave for or at least not hearing the First Minister's cunning plan for a second independence referendum? Or is it simply she doesn't want to inhabit the same country as Stephen Flynn?

[00:04:15]First Minister.

[00:04:19]I think she'd be much >> happier to live in the same country as Stephen Flynn than the same country as Malcolm Offord and Reform.

[00:04:26]I think I think what I would I think what I would say to Malcolm Offord is just to refer him to on the issue of tax to some of the assessment of his own tax plans. And the Institute for Fiscal Studies described Reform's taxation and spending plans as not fiscally credible.

[00:04:45]Now, that is essentially a summary of what I've just been saying to to Malcolm Offord that the tax plans that he has put forward are will have the effect of dramatically reducing the investment available for public expenditure. Now, I'm all for a vigorous debate in this Parliament about the priorities that we've got to take forward. But I've listened to some of Mr. Offord's colleagues over the course of the last few days and weeks. And I've heard a number of calls for there to be more expenditure undertaken. More money for local government was one of the things that I heard the other day. More money for the health service was what I heard.

[00:05:23]Well, we cannot have a realistic debate about priorities if Reform are saying on the one hand, "Cut taxes by £2 billion and spend more on health and local government." These two statements are completely and utterly incompatible and that's why the IFS says that Reform's plans are simply fiscally incredible.

[00:05:45]>> [applause] >> Anas Sarwar >> Thank you, Presiding Officer. Yesterday, John Swinney and the SNP government were held in contempt of court for failing to be open and transparent with the public.

[00:05:58]As that was happening, John Swinney finally admitted that the £600,000 that his party raised from members of the public explicitly to spend on a referendum campaign had been used for other expenses. A new police complaint is believed to have been lodged last night. A specific website was created.

[00:06:15]It was explicit that people were donating to a ring-fenced independence campaign fund. The same promise was made in letters, social media posts, and media interviews. To quote one example, "SNP, all the money raised on ScotRef website is ring-fenced to fight a future independence referendum." That was clearly a lie.

[00:06:35]Will the First Minister now apologize to all those members of the public whose hard-earned cash his party took on false pretenses? And will he, unlike Nicola Sturgeon, fully cooperate with any new police investigation?

[00:06:49]First Minister >> Presiding Officer, what I said yesterday was nothing different to what the Scottish National Party said in 2021.

[00:06:58]So, I think Mr. Sarwar's got to do a wee bit of a check of his press cuts before he tries to put that into his comments.

[00:07:05]I don't think it'll be a surprise to members of the public that the Scottish National Party and John Swinney believe in Scottish independence. We raise money We raise money to deliver Scottish independence, and we've got every intention of delivering Scottish independence.

[00:07:22]>> [applause] >> Anas Sarwar Presiding Officer, there are really serious questions here. Peter Murrell has pled guilty to embezzling £400,000.

[00:07:32]It has now become clear he did much of this by falsifying receipts, on many occasions pretending they were legitimate business costs. Political parties, like businesses, are able to claim back VAT on purchases relating to operating costs. That means fraudulent purchases recorded by the SNP using phony receipts may have been included in any reclaimed VAT. For example, the 120,000 124,000 pound camper van recorded in the system as a van will be subject to 20% VAT.

[00:08:07]The 3,000 pound robotic lawnmower recorded as legal fees will be subject to VAT. Or the ridiculous luxury egg poacher recorded as an ethernet cable will be subject to VAT. All potentially illegally reclaimed from HMRC.

[00:08:23]Today we have written to His Majesty's Revenue and Customs asking them to launch a full investigation into the potential defrauding of the public purse. So can I ask John Swinney, would he welcome this investigation and will he launch his own audit so we can so we can make sure that any misused public money can be recouped?

[00:08:43]>> First Minister.

[00:08:48]Let me help Mr. Sarwar with an update on information. The issues in relation to the implications of Peter Murrell's admission of guilt about the embezzlement of Scottish National Party funds does have potential implications in relation to the payment of taxation. That's why the Scottish National Party has already opened up discussions with His Majesty's Revenue and Customs on exactly that point so that we proactively and making sure that we deliver the highest standards of financial governance, which is exactly what I preside over, is taken forward at our own request with His Majesty's Revenue and Customs.

[00:09:27]Anas Sarwar.

[00:09:29]Can I thank John Swinney for accepting that there could potentially be illegal reclaiming of VAT from HMRC meaning potential misuse of public money that should not have been claimed because of the fraudulent receipts issued by Peter Murrell. But that also demonstrates that this is the biggest political and financial scandal in the history of the Scottish Parliament, and it goes far beyond the crimes of Peter Murrell. So John Swinney won't get away with the same approach, a culture of secrecy, cover-up, and deflection that led to the situation in the first place. Operation Branchform dragged on for almost four years. It consumed huge amounts of police time. It cost the taxpayer at least 2.7 million pounds. It has raised profound questions about transparency and accountability at the heart of government. It's brought further scrutiny on the dual role of the Lord Advocate. It has raised issues for the governing party of this country with the misuse of 600,000 pounds of supporters' money. And now there's an acceptance that there is a possible defrauding of public >> First Minister, have a question.

[00:10:35]>> HMRC. So my question is this: It is beyond doubt that there should be a parliamentary inquiry. So will John Swinney now finally back that inquiry, or will it require further arrests for the public to get the truth?

[00:10:48]>> First Minister.

[00:10:51]>> [applause] >> In the course of that rambling explanation from Mr. Sarwar, he said that there had been an extraordinary amount of time and resources spent on a police investigation. There has been.

[00:11:07]There had to be because my party was the victim of criminal embezzlement by somebody that was trusted in my party.

[00:11:15]So that investigation had to take place.

[00:11:19]But what Mr. Sarwar now wants to do is to have another investigation because I presume he didn't like the outcome of the last investigation because it didn't suit the the priorities that he's setting out. Now last night, last night I convened a meeting of my party's national executive committee to make sure that we could take the action necessary to address the implications of the conviction of Peter Murrell. We agreed unanimously to act to secure the party's interest by instructing our solicitors to begin action in court to recover the money that's been stolen from us. We have significantly improved our financial procedures and controls over the last few years. I've taken strong action to make sure that we have effective financial management in the Scottish National Party. We've put in place the measures to make sure that we have the highest standards. We've had a police investigation. There can be no higher and more forensic investigation than a police investigation, and I therefore do not support the establishment of a parliamentary inquiry cuz we've had an investigation and it convicted somebody for embezzling from my party's funds.

[00:12:33]>> [applause] >> Douglas Ross clear.

[00:12:38]Thank you, presiding officer.

[00:12:40]This week marks the start of Pride Month. Pride isn't just a celebration of our LGBTQ community, it's a protest, and it's clear why protest is still needed.

[00:12:49]A decade ago, the UK consistently came top of the list for LGBTQ rights in Europe. Today, we've fallen to 22nd place. That's primarily the result of the vicious wave of transphobia that's been unleashed in recent years, but the attacks on our whole community are escalating. One of the many shameful stains on the UK's record is the failure to ban the form of torture known as conversion therapy. The First Minister promised a ban on so-called conversion therapy in Scotland within a year of the election if the UK government failed to bring forward its own bill. As it stands, Labour have repeatedly promised to bring forward that bill, but failed to to so. So, will the First Minister take this opportunity during Pride Month to confirm that he will fulfill his promise to LGBTQ Scots? Will his program for government include a ban on so-called conversion therapy?

[00:13:37]>> First Minister.

[00:13:39]>> [applause] >> First of all, Presiding Officer, let me associate myself with the substance of Mr. Greer's comments about his concern about the erosion of the position of the LGBTQ community and the and the and and express my solidarity with the community to ensure that the rights of the community are protected at all times and that they are asserted. In relation to the question of a ban on conversion therapy, my party's manifesto said that we would embark first of all on dialogue with the United Kingdom government to establish their intentions and and to try to seek common purpose. So, Mairi McAllan, the Minister for Equalities, has sought that dialogue with the United Kingdom government and of course we will update Parliament on the implications of that dialogue, which of course relates to the specific question that Mr. Greer has put to me.

[00:14:34]>> Ross Greer.

[00:14:36]>> Thank you. I thank the First Minister for his solidarity. I of course want and the Scottish Greens want to see a UK-wide ban on this form of torture, but the UK government has made this promise over and over and it's still not introduced that bill. If they fail to do so again, I would expect to see this in the Scottish government's program in September. Turning to different matter entirely though, I was pleased during the election campaign to meet people across the Highlands and Islands who are now saving a fortune thanks to the £2 bus fare cap that the Scottish Greens secured through negotiations with the government. Someone commuting from Elgin to Inverness today is saving 17 quid a day on that journey. Expanding the £2 cap nationwide was in the Green and the SNP manifestos at the election. In our case as a transitional step towards universal free bus travel. With the school holidays coming up and families looking for affordable days out with the cost of petrol skyrocketing, expanding that cap should be a top priority for the government. Does the First Minister agree with the Scottish Greens that more families should be able to enjoy £2 bus fares this summer?

[00:15:35]>> First Minister.

[00:15:36]>> [applause] >> I I I agree with with that proposition, which is why it was in the SNP manifesto and it's obviously been taken forward as part of the early actions of the government. Now, we we're very pleased with the progress that's been made on the the bus fare cap in the Highlands and Islands. It's providing real benefits for individuals in our community and I want to see families in other parts of the country benefit. The government made clear or my party made clear during the election campaign that our priority was to roll this proposal out, but it will take us time to roll this out. I have to be candid with Parliament on that question. Our priority was to roll this out in the west of Scotland in the Strathclyde transport area and that will be our priority to take forward the practical steps that are necessary to implement our manifesto commitment.

[00:16:25]>> Ross Greer.

[00:16:27]>> As a West of Scotland MSP, I of course welcome the First Minister's prioritization of Strathclyde Partnership for Transport there, but I do believe families across Scotland should be able to benefit from this as soon as possible. Making buses cheaper is only half the picture though. 40 years after Thatcher privatized the bus network, many communities just don't have the bus services that they need.

[00:16:47]Fair prices have gone up, but routes have disappeared. This leaves people isolated and it holds our whole economy back. At the same time, a handful of private owners have become obscenely rich. Some have made so much money from being bus company operators that they can afford to set fire to a pile of their cash by writing 100 grand checks to the Scottish Labour Party.

[00:17:07]The Scottish Greens propose bringing our buses back into public ownership, Presiding Officer, through a bond scheme, but the the SNP's manifesto was silent on this question of ownership.

[00:17:19]Does the First Minister now agree that it's time to end the failed experiment of privatized buses, and will you work with the Scottish Greens to bring our bus services back under public control?

[00:17:30]>> First Minister.

[00:17:33]>> I've always pr- prided myself on giving avuncular advice to Mr. Greer, and all I can say to him is I think he touched a raw nerve with his comment about the the bus donations to the Labour Party.

[00:17:45]And when he made his point And when he made his point about the the the free travel in the west of Scotland, I keep on thinking that he's eligible for the under 22's bus pass and into the bargain. Let me say seriously that I'm very sympathetic to the points that Mr. Greer puts forward, because I think there are a number of very good examples. Well, this city is a shining example of of bus transport in public ownership with outstanding, high-quality bus service in the city of Edinburgh.

[00:18:12]I'm full of admiration for the work that the council has undertaken, for many, many more services have been brought in under public ownership and public control. So, the legislative framework is in place to enable that to to be the case, and we will want to work with local authorities to try to advance these propositions, because I do think that would be in the public interest. Of course, we can take steps to make public transport more affordable and more sustainable through the steps that we propose with the £2 bus cap and the bus fare cap, and I look forward to engaging, as does the Deputy First Minister, with the the Greens on these questions in relation to the financial priorities of the government.

[00:18:52]>> Russell Findlay.

[00:18:54]>> Thank you, Presiding Officer. Peter Murrell stole at least £400,000 from the SNP, and he simply couldn't have done this without the protection of his wife, Nicola Sturgeon, and his childhood friend, John Swinney.

[00:19:11]During During this crime spree, the SNP was in receipt of more than 10 million pounds of taxpayers' money. I don't know if Stephen Flynn's cheering me on or heckling me. He's probably cheering me on, keeping his eye on the prize.

[00:19:28]Last week, John Swinney told me that no public money had been stolen. But Mr. Swinney also spent years denying the disappearance of funds until yesterday when he suddenly changed his story. So, is John Swinney still 100% sure that Peter Murrell didn't get his sticky fingers on any public money?

[00:20:00]First Minister.

[00:20:03]>> I I stand by the comments that I made last week to Russell Findlay.

[00:20:09]He may have noticed a quote from the Electoral Commission last week who said that the SNP received policy development grants as set out in law. Parties have to report on their use of the grant and have that grant expenditure independently audited. The Commission checks carefully that the grant is spent correctly. The SNP have provided those audits. We've checked them and we've seen no evidence of misuse of policy development grant funds. If there is evidence of any misuse, the Commission will take appropriate action to safeguard that public money. Now, those are the words of the independent Electoral Commission. The police have carried out an extensive investigation and have found nothing to substantiate the abuse that has come from Russell Findlay today. And all I would say, and all I would say to Russell Findlay as he is complaining about Stephen Flynn barracking him and he's just barracking me. So, I suggest that Mr. Findlay should learn some lessons from what he's going on about in his contributions. But let me just say this to Russell Findlay.

[00:21:10]Russell Findlay has spent years coming here, coming here, abusing me, denigrating >> Excuse me, I'd like to hear the First Minister respond. And Mr. Russell, you shouldn't heckle a question you yourself have asked when someone's trying to answer it.

[00:21:29]First Minister.

[00:21:30]>> denigrating my personal integrity and my personal reputation.

[00:21:35]And I would just point them I just point Mr. Findlay to the outcome of the election where the people of my constituency had the opportunity to reject me having listened to everything that Russell Findlay and everything that his sidekick piled out about me and my constituency and the Conservatives took another hammering in Perthshire North.

[00:21:54]Not for the first time, for the seventh time in this Parliament. So, people don't listen to Russell Findlay and the Tories.

[00:22:03]>> [applause] >> Russell Findlay >> Did you hear what a performance of crocodile tears that was? So, so sad.

[00:22:12]The SNP The SNP treat taxpayers with the same contempt that they treat their own members.

[00:22:21]Former accountant Alister Cameron joined the SNP in the 1960s before half of that lot were even born. And he donated money for years to your party. He passed away a few months ago at the age of 89. His daughter Susan told me this morning that he would have felt not only betrayed by Peter Murrell's theft, but by betrayed by those who stopped didn't stop Peter Murrell, who facilitated and enabled his crime spree.

[00:22:53]And John Swinney spent years defending every single indefensible SNP scandal.

[00:23:00]But, all he has in response to the CD claims free is angry, fake deflection.

[00:23:06]John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon's complex web of stories are unraveling, please. Does John Swinney not realize that his leadership is also unraveling because of his central role in this scandal?

[00:23:24]First Minister What an absolutely pathetic spectacle to bring to Parliament.

[00:23:36]My leadership was on the line on the general election on the 7th of May. It was paraded by every one of my political rivals, Mr. Sarwar, Mr. Finlay, week after week questioning my integrity. So it was on the line and the people of Scotland sent me in here to lead this country, to lead this government. I lead it with privilege and with pride and I'll always serve the people of Scotland. And Mr. Sarwar and Mr. Finlay will always remain on the backbenches sent out there with a ringing ringing message from the people of Scotland they're not listening to EITHER OF THEM.

[00:24:14]>> [applause] >> ALEX Cole-Hamilton Thank you, Presiding Officer. I think perhaps Presiding Officer, the most regrettable aspect of this whole sorry saga around the SNP finances is is the erosion of public trust and faith in politics it creates. There are still big unanswered questions around all of this.

[00:24:38]That is why we need a parliamentary inquiry, but the government are blocking it. Just like they've blocked other measures to challenge bad behavior. For 10 years Westminster has given people the right to sack criminal or corrupt MPs. It removed the the of Margaret Ferrier when she endangered lives during COVID. We could have had that here in Holyrood, but the SNP blocked it just 3 months ago. Why doesn't John Swinney think the people should be able to have the right to sack their MSPs when there is proven misconduct?

[00:25:14]>> That's First Minister. That's That's That's not my position because just last week, I think, I answered or maybe it was earlier on this week. I'm just Mr. I answered questions from Mr. Simpson in the course of the last week in which he asked would the government bring forward proposals or would the government cooperate on the formulation of proposals in relation to recall legislation? And I gave Mr. Simpson a positive answer. It's an issue that I think that the government is prepared to uh to contribute to this process. I've I I debated in my mind about whether it's appropriate for the government to bring forward proposals that affects the status of elected members of Parliament.

[00:25:52]I'd much rather those proposals come from within Parliament. But if it would be helpful, I would certainly bring forward proposals to enact a workable recall mechanism because I think it is important that the people have the opportunity to recall members of Parliament who behave inappropriately.

[00:26:08]So, I hope that helps to contribute to Mr. Cole-Hamilton's evaluation of how we make progress on these questions because I want to make sure the highest standards are applied at all times, which is what I do.

[00:26:21]>> Alex Cole-Hamilton.

[00:26:22]>> Thank you, Presiding Officer. Presiding Officer, I I heard these same warm noises from John Swinney in the last Parliament when there was a live bill in front of this chamber which would have given effect to these proposals. He had the votes to deliver it across the line, yet he instructed them to vote against it. Recall provides a solution for when things go wrong, but we can do more to ensure that the right people are in politics to begin with. As a former youth worker, I've twice tried to change the law so that elected representatives are subject to the basic safeguarding checks around working with children and vulnerable adults. But again, the SNP government has blocked blocked progress on this. It is time to remove bad actors from public life. I can't believe the First Minister ever wants to go through any of this again. So, will he stop standing in the way of efforts to clean up our politics?

[00:27:15]>> First Minister.

[00:27:17]>> Can I respectfully say to Mr. Cole-Hamilton that it would help if once I've given an answer to his question, he could perhaps change the script of what he then was going on to say. Because he just ignored everything I said about recall and could have engaged in some substantive discussion about how we might take forward recall recall legislation. Because the issue about the recall legislation in the last parliament was it was unworkable. And the government can't allow unworkable legislation to go forward. So, I I'm very happy to engage on this question, but I would respectfully encourage Mr. Cole-Hamilton to do likewise. Now, on the issue of PVG checks, I'm very happy to consider it. I I don't want bad actors to be operating anywhere in relation to our public services and I and I extend that into to members of parliament. So, if he wants to advance on this question, he take a a leaf out of the book of Mr. Rennie, his next door neighbor, who suggested the other day that there was opportunities for us to make progress on shared objectives. I encourage Mr. Rennie to to counsel his colleague next door to him. Give him Give him some more of the constructive advice that Mr. Rennie's always sharing with me. I I make it clear, I'm not on a mission to destroy Mr. Rennie's career. I'm only here to support him and to encourage good outcomes for the people of Scotland.

[00:28:39]>> Thank you. That concludes First Minister's Questions for Party Leaders.

[00:28:44]We'll just have a a a break in order to prepare for the next debate.