Session 28: Calling Crissle

追加: 2026-05-26

[00:00:01]Hi, and welcome back to Crystal's Couch, the show where I answer your letters for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world. Today, I am diving back in with more live callers. It is such a treat for me to be able to chat with you all live and get some more insight and information about what you have going on. So, I just love doing this. I'm so happy we have more people lined up this week. So, let's not waste any time. Let's jump right in. Hi, what's your name?

[00:00:29]My name is Amber. Hi, Amber. What's going on?

[00:00:34]Um, if I could just say this real quick.

[00:00:36]Um, I feel like this is my Beyonce podcast moment, so I feel like I'm meeting the Beyonce of podcasting.

[00:00:42]>> That's really You're giving me a lot right now, but thank you, baby. I appreciate it.

[00:00:48]>> You're welcome. Um, so my problem today is I had a really devastating friendship breakup. I really love this friend and we broke up due to her being a bit male centered and self-sacrificed a lot and as a friend it was just hard to watch.

[00:01:08]So my problem is I ghosted her and I just want to know if that's okay and how to navigate that. You ghosted her?

[00:01:21]Yeah.

[00:01:23]When was the last time you all talked?

[00:01:28]>> A year ago.

[00:01:28]>> A year ago.

[00:01:31]>> Okay. So, what was it about this friend that made you feel like, "Wow, I just can't even text you back no more. Like, I have to just I have to vanish."

[00:01:41]>> Um, there were parts of my life that were getting better. And I've noticed just throughout our friendship, um, we were always there for each other during the really hard times of our lives. But once >> things just started kind of getting a bit better for me, I've noticed just different conversations were happening or she just didn't really care about how good things were going in my life, which I understand. Like when you have things going on in yours, it's a bit hard. So, >> okay. So, you felt like you were starting to get better, things were starting to maybe turn around and go your way, and she was just not supportive of that because she was still struggling.

[00:02:25]>> Yeah. Okay. And um is do you all have any mutual friends?

[00:02:33]No. Like I met her when I lived in a certain state.

[00:02:37]We just kind of kept in touch since then, but we don't really have any mutual friends amongst each other.

[00:02:44]>> Okay. So, it sounds like you're feeling guilty for the ghosting, though. I'm wondering why that is.

[00:02:52]>> Um, it's Well, cuz I really got in tune with just not only her, but her whole family.

[00:02:59]So when I decided to step back, it was more so me stepping away from like the kids and they all really love me as well. So >> Oh yeah.

[00:03:11]>> It just the guilt's there from like just stepping away from that whole like dynamic pretty much, >> right? And so was this your main problem with her that you felt like she wasn't supportive of you when things were starting to go better in your life or was there anything else going on?

[00:03:29]Um, I think it was more so like being with her through the ups and downs of her marriage and just I'm I'm always there to be like there for her, but it's just like it was becoming like a lot of things that were bothering me that she would kind of like dump on me at one time or I would be kind of going through things myself and it just be like constant dumping um cuz she had to get things out, which I understand cuz I'm like one of her closest friends.

[00:04:01]>> Um, but then the dumping just kind of started to become a lot for my mental health personally.

[00:04:07]>> Okay. So, she was venting to you a lot about her her marriage. Was it like abusive level stuff or or maybe not quite as severe as that?

[00:04:19]>> Um, not quite as severe. It was a lot more like the toxicity of it. Um, and and that's kind of where the male- centered piece comes in. So just um a lot just it it's very like level a lot of levels to it but um it was just kind of like watching those different behaviors with just certain dynamics within the family and things such as that or like >> Yeah.

[00:04:43]>> Okay. All right. I think I I think I'm getting a clearer picture of what was going on here now. It sounds like you uh maybe started to grow some resentment because you were providing a level of emotional support or an amount of emotional support that she was not reciprocating. Does that sound correct?

[00:05:06]>> Absolutely.

[00:05:07]>> Okay.

[00:05:09]Okay. So, h are you are you missing this friend? What what's happened now a year later that makes you say, "hm, maybe I need to talk to somebody about this?"

[00:05:20]>> Um, well, even during the time of me like healing from the breakup, I realized um I needed to talk to somebody through that in general. But I think now um just kind of like what's I guess weighing heavy on my heart is just kind of like knowing what she has going on um the kids and >> I just it's just kind of like navigating this space of like okay like I don't have I had this close relationship a year ago and now it's like completely gone.

[00:05:50]>> Yeah.

[00:05:51]Well, you know, I really don't believe in ghosting except in situations where abuse is going on. So I but I get it. I get it. I do. We're human, you know. So I I understand, but I can't be on your side with that part of it. Um what do you think? Yeah. What do you think would happen if you reached out to her after a year to say, "Hey, you know, you've been on my mind. I wanted to check on you, see how you're doing."

[00:06:18]>> I feel like that's also my problem.

[00:06:20]um like hard conversations like that, facing conversations like that, I'm like, but I feel like if I did reach out to her, she would probably be very happy. Um the damage is still there, but I feel like she would be like a bit more probably forgiving through that. So, >> so you feel uncomfortable with the idea of having these conversations?

[00:06:43]>> Yeah, >> I see. H Have you Have you always been that way? Have you always just kind of like, oo, I'd rather not rock the boat.

[00:06:51]I'll just walk away.

[00:06:53]>> Yeah, I'm I'm the type of person like I would rather not rock the boat. I don't like to have really kind of like devastating conversations, but I I do like if I start to notice different behaviors, I try to speak up in the moment, but usually those conversations get a little like I'm like, "All right, time for me to shy away a little bit. I don't know how to navigate this."

[00:07:16]>> Mhm.

[00:07:17]Well, sometimes we can be a little hesitant or wary to have those kind of conversations with people because we have a history of maybe having tried that before and it really didn't go well maybe with a parent or other um family member who had some authority over us.

[00:07:38]So, I'm not saying that's necessarily your story, but >> you if if you don't develop that ability to tolerate how uncomfortable those conversations can be, there is going to be a certain depth um that your friendships and other intimate relationships cannot reach. M because it is a part of life to have conflict with others even if it's you know it doesn't have to be you know knock down dragout fight but you know as we spend time with people we're in community with people we naturally get on each other's nerves or we say or do something that the other person doesn't like. And if we can't be open about that and expect that that person will also be open with us, then we can't really have any space for repair and and then a deepening of the relationship. It means that our friendships um end up at a a level that's pretty shallow overall because >> we're blocking off a part of ourselves.

[00:08:47]>> Does that sound like you? That makes Yeah, that makes total sense. You're reading into my soul right now, Crystal.

[00:08:53]Hold on. Hold on real quick. Let me hold the steering wheel. Hold on.

[00:09:01]Okay. Okay. So, I think reaching out to this friend may not be the best idea actually. not only because you um don't really want to have that deeper conversation, but also because it doesn't sound like anything has probably really changed for either of you. And so, you're going to go right back into what you're familiar with. The resentment and irritation's going to grow. You're going to be like, "Oh, I don't really want to say nothing. I don't feel comfortable." Blah blah blah.

[00:09:33]And then you're going to want to run away again. So, I think maybe working on that element of of your personality would be what I would suggest if you really want to repair with this friend.

[00:09:47]If you don't, if you want to just call it quits and be like, "Okay, moving forward, how do I approach friendships differently?"

[00:09:54]I think you're going to have to really Yeah. I think you're going to have to really investigate that part of you that's scared to have conversations where the other person may not react in the way you want them to.

[00:10:10]>> That's true.

[00:10:11]>> Yeah. So, when you think about that possibility, what happens uh internally?

[00:10:18]Um, a part of me wants to like cave in like that's uncomfortable. And honestly, I'm like, I don't think I want to do that. But I get that's like I guess that uncomfortableness is like the truth in stepping forward and leaning into that versus like sitting in the discomfort.

[00:10:37]So >> yes, I mean the thing about it is that sitting in the discomfort is uncomfortable. Like it does not feel good. It isn't fun. But we have to increase our ability to tolerate that feeling because that's the only way we can really have complex, deep, nurturing relationships with other people. So, I bet that you probably felt a little bit relieved when I was like, "Well, you don't have to hit her up again." You was like, "Woo, good, cuz I don't want to."

[00:11:06]You're probably like, "Okay, because that was gonna be a hard conversation. I didn't want to have it." But um increasing your tolerance for for these sort of conversations I think is going to be really really um important for you. And also, you know, speaking up when things first start to bother you as opposed to letting them build up and fester. That may also be something that's worth um you taking a look at in your own life. Do you tend to let things just kind of build up over time or do you address issues as they come up?

[00:11:43]>> Um, I've gotten better with addressing issues that come up, especially when I see like dynamics or something that doesn't make sense or I'm like, "This might not be like good to sit in in the moment." So, I do better at that. It's just when kind of like behaviors stay the same, I tend to like start to get a bit more like avoidant in that way.

[00:12:06]Okay. So, okay. So, do you mean like you give your friend advice and she doesn't take it and she keeps repeating the same thing over and over?

[00:12:17]>> Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:12:19]>> Yeah. So, you know, this this is uh very common actually where we become very irritated with our friends because they keep doing dumb You're like, "Girl, how much of this am I supposed to be able to take?" This is where boundaries come in, though. How would you say you are with having boundaries with your close friends?

[00:12:42]>> Um, it's gotten better. Uh, with especially with my age, I know I just turned 30, so a part of me now is like I I don't have the space or the room to just let people walk all over me or >> continue to say and do the same thing.

[00:12:57]So, I have gotten better with that. And I feel like that's kind of where the uncomfortableness comes too is like I setting that boundary and continuing to set it. And I'm like, well, if we're not learning, then I don't know if I can continue to move forward. So, >> well, so I would I would say there's a few things there. First of all, 30 is right around the age where you start to realize these things. So, you're right on time. Um, secondly, it can be very useful to take a step back and say, you know what, my friend actually does not have to take my advice.

[00:13:29]You actually don't. You don't have to listen to me. You don't have to do the things I think you should do. It's your life and ultimately it's your choice.

[00:13:39]So, I can if you ask me for my advice, I'm happily going to give it to you, but you don't have to take it. I release, you know, whatever comes after I give you the advice. And if that means you coming to me two weeks later talking about, "Oh my god, here go Tony again with his blah blah blah." You're like, "Damn, that's crazy." You know, like you just kind of >> when you let go of the idea that like, well, you wouldn't be in this situation if you would just listen to me, then you can let go of some of the aggravation that comes along with your friend making choices that you wouldn't make for yourself or that you think aren't best for her. But also having boundaries around, you know, certain topics or engaging with the same thing over and over again, that can also be helpful um just so you don't feel burnt out. You know, there's a when it comes to close relationships, intimate relationships, um you know, friendship or or dating or otherwise, there's a balance between I'm going to let myself be annoyed by you because I love you very deeply and the good outweighs the bad versus I have to put some boundaries up and take a step back and go take care of myself.

[00:14:56]So, it's not always going to be it's not like constantly boundaries like, "Oh my god, no. You talked to me about your boyfriend once and you still with him and I don't like that, so don't talk to me about him no more." Like, that's one extreme. That's an extreme. And the other extreme is, "Yeah, girl, call me and vent about that man for 3 hours every Wednesday and Friday. I'm always here." Blah, blah, blah. You got to find something in that middle ground between those two where it's like, "Yeah, I'm annoyed with you right now, but you my girl and we've all been there, so I'mma hear you out."

[00:15:30]>> That makes more sense. Thank you for that. That sounds That sounds really good. Cuz sometimes I'm like, I don't know how to find that balance, that middle ground. Um because I I either love you too much and I really want to lean in with you every single day or I'm like >> I don't know about that. You got one time with me. So that makes sense.

[00:15:52]>> Yeah. And and I think finding that balance for you is going to be super important. But remember like it's not your responsibility or your job. And it's also not even within your power to fix another person. All we can do is listen, be good friends, be supportive.

[00:16:10]You know, you can validate someone's feelings without um condoning their behavior. Like you can say, "I can see why you would be frustrated with this man." without saying, "Well, damn girl, that's why you a dummy for still being with him." You know, like there's a difference in those two. Um one makes a person feel empowered and heard and seen while the other makes them feel judged and and shamed. So you you can find that balance I think here with your friendships, but you are going to have to increase that ability to to feel annoyed or irritated or or just to feel uncomfortable with having certain conversations cuz that's how we have close friends.

[00:16:55]>> That makes sense. Thank you, Crystal, cuz I'll be confused. So thank you.

[00:17:01]>> You are welcome, Amber. I'm wishing you the best of luck moving forward.

[00:17:06]>> All right. Thank you. Bye, beautiful lady.

[00:17:08]>> Thank you, babe. Talk soon. Bye. Oh, I just loved Amber. That was so fun. And you know, we don't always know how to be friends. Sometimes it's not intuitive.

[00:17:22]You know, it's not like, oh, I met my best friend on the playground when we were five and we've been locked in and no problems ever since. You know, friendship dynamics are just like any other relationship dynamics. Sometimes they're up and down and things aren't going to go right. They're not going to feel right. And that has to be okay.

[00:17:38]What we have to be able to do is to turn back to that person, be honest, um, and you know, honesty without harshness.

[00:17:48]There's a there's a way to say things, but being honest with our friends about how we feel. Um, being able to listen to them and then coming to a conclusion together that only deepens our relationships. So, best of luck to Amber and anyone else struggling with the same dynamic. All right, next caller, please.

[00:18:08]Hello. Who's there?

[00:18:09]>> Hi, Crystal. It's Be.

[00:18:12]>> Hi, V. How are you?

[00:18:14]>> Good. How are you?

[00:18:15]>> I'm good, thank you. What's going on?

[00:18:18]>> Um, so I'm a 34 year old woman living in the DC region and for as long as I can remember, I have felt like the black sheep in my family. Anytime I bring this up with my mom, our conversations hit an emotional brick wall and I feel discouraged afterwards. I try to bring it up with my older cousin who I'm close to, but she's not the best active listener and I again feel like I'm not being heard.

[00:18:45]Last month, I tried once again to bring this up with my mom and the conversation didn't go well. She essentially said it was my fault for not talking about my life and overall seemed to dismiss my emotional needs. I feel as if I'm always asked to help others, but when it's time for me to reach out for support, I'm often dismissed. So, I guess my question is, should I continue to try to talk to my family about being dismissive and unheard, or should I just stay silent?

[00:19:13]Oh, B, I'm sorry. Uh, first of all, because that's a hard position to be in.

[00:19:19]Uh, do you have anyone else in your life where you are able to talk and you feel really seen and understood?

[00:19:25]Yeah. So, I have a lot of friends, uh, mostly friends from high school who we're all still really close with one another. Uh, we have all sort of undergone therapy and I feel like our relationships have gotten stronger because of that. So, I do often >> have like a similar conversation with them about this.

[00:19:44]>> Okay. How long have you been in therapy or were you in therapy? Um, so I was in therapy uh probably about two years.

[00:19:53]When the pandemic hit, I anxiety and depression came and I was like, I need to go talk to someone. Um, and I've recently started to started the process of looking for another therapist >> cuz I feel like I need to get back and talk to someone.

[00:20:10]>> So, you saw a therapist for about two years >> uh when the pandemic hit, which I mean a lot of people did. So, Very understandable. And now you're looking for another one. Okay. Well, h on the one hand, I'm very glad that you do have these friends who have also been at therapy and it sounds like they're much better at at listening to you and really hearing what you have to say. On the other, I can completely understand wanting that same thing from your mom. I think I heard you say like for your whole life or as long as you can remember she's been like this.

[00:20:49]>> Yeah. I I I'm not sure what it is it is.

[00:20:53]It just feels like sometimes I am not living up to her expectations.

[00:21:00]>> I see.

[00:21:02]Is there something in particular that makes you think that? Um, I just have moments from particularly when I was younger where it felt like I was being compared to other girls around my age. I distinctly remember um when my father was still living, like they got into an argument cuz it felt like she was going on and on about how so and so started was doing this and so and so was doing that and this person was on the honor roll. And I remember my dad sort of saying like, you know, stop comparing her to other people.

[00:21:39]>> Okay. So, your dad was really the one advocating for you in that scenario while your mother was comparing you to other people and and what they were doing, >> right? Yeah.

[00:21:50]>> Okay, I see. And how long ago did you lose your father?

[00:21:54]>> Um, it's been nine nine years.

[00:21:56]>> Okay.

[00:21:58]O, that's rough. I'm sorry. Um, >> thank you.

[00:22:03]>> Especially because it sounds like maybe your dad was the was the one who did see you.

[00:22:08]>> Mhm. Yeah.

[00:22:09]>> Yeah.

[00:22:11]Okay. Do you and your mother talk openly about anything? Your father's death or or her feelings or anything at all?

[00:22:19]>> So, we talk openly about sort of the things she's going through.

[00:22:25]I know she um like when her mother passed away and then her sister passed right after, >> we had conversations about that. She's been dealing with a family friend who has dementia and sort of is in the position of being the um like executive of her estate. Um, and we do like we live together, so we talk every day, but it just feels that I'm constantly sort of being that support for her and I don't think that is being reciprocated.

[00:23:00]>> Right. And when you say that to her, like, hey, I feel like, you know, I'm not really being heard, that I'm doing this. Like, it sounds like you've had these conversations and she's dismissive of your feelings. Is that right?

[00:23:11]>> Yeah.

[00:23:12]>> Okay.

[00:23:14]So, so where if this has been going on all of your all of your life, um what is it about now that makes you feel like something needs to change?

[00:23:28]I think I'm in a position where I'm saving up to move out and I've been having these thoughts of what do I want my relationship to my with my family to look like when I am no longer under that same roof as like my mom or not close physically with my cousins and my mom and my brother.

[00:23:51]>> Yeah.

[00:23:53]Are you afraid of losing some of of the closeness that you feel now?

[00:24:02]>> I think so. I know that I can be the type of person if I don't if I'm not receiving the emotional response that I want, I can sort of go into like isolation. And I feel that I might do that with my family.

[00:24:19]>> Mhm.

[00:24:21]Well, I wouldn't even say, you know, it's that you don't receive the kind of emotional response that you want. It sounds like you're not receiving much of an emotional response at all. And our emotional needs are needs.

[00:24:36]>> Mhm.

[00:24:37]>> They are important for, you know, having a healthy personhood.

[00:24:42]And that goes for everybody. Everybody needs to feel seen, heard, valued, etc. in their closest relationships.

[00:24:51]So, I wonder h I do wonder if if you are in a position now to save up and move out, if that happens, if you won't suddenly be confronted with how the closeness between you and your family is primarily supported by the fact that you all live together or live in close proximity with one another. Because it sounds like emotionally you're much closer with your friends. Is that accurate?

[00:25:22]>> Yeah, I would say so.

[00:25:24]>> Yeah. So, it may be that once you're out of the house, it could be that you feel like, oh, I'm not close with my mom or siblings or cousins anymore, but that may be because you're not actually close with them now. And removing that physical proximity will make that much more obvious to you.

[00:25:42]>> Mhm. And so do you think maybe they will have a change of heart when you're no longer in the house?

[00:25:51]>> Um, I'm sort of split. I think I would hope that they do, but I don't I don't know, honestly.

[00:26:01]>> Yeah. Well, it can be that, especially with parents, it can be that we're holding on to the hope that they're going to be the person that we need them to be >> because we deserve that from from people, especially from our parents.

[00:26:20]They literally owe us emotional attunement. It is part of the job of being a parent. So, it could very well be that you're holding on to that despite a lifetime of evidence that shows that she is not equipped to be that person for you. And so, you may be um setting yourself up for some some disappointment in the future in that regard. If you're thinking that maybe once you move out, she'll realize, oh, you know, I didn't really value be the way I should have when she was here.

[00:26:51]maybe I should have this or I'll reach out, you know, we'll go get coffee, we'll talk, blah blah blah. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying if you look at the evidence, it doesn't sound like she's ever demonstrated that that's the sort of mother that she can be to you.

[00:27:07]>> Mhm. Yeah.

[00:27:09]>> And that's not your fault. Like I said, that is you deserve that emotional connection. And it's just unfortunate that sometimes our parents aren't equipped um or able or willing or whatever else to give it. So, do you think h is this having an effect on you mentally here lately? Are you feeling anxious or having trouble sleeping? That sort of thing? Um, I'm feeling anxious and I think it's just because it's um other like I in my job things feel very fraught right now and I think that's sort of brought this to like the forefront because >> I see >> I'm sort of in a position where there are there are structural changes in my like uh organization and I'm not sure if I will still have a job in the next year.

[00:28:05]>> I see.

[00:28:06]>> And I have sort of been reaching out trying to express to my family in particular my mom that this is really scary and especially as an early career professional I this is happening at the worst time for me.

[00:28:20]>> Right.

[00:28:22]Right. Okay. So that adds a lot more context because the economic fear right now around being employed is high for a lot of people. A lot of black women especially have been affected by this country and this administration's decisions to eliminate certain jobs and reduce funding for in certain areas. So that is an extremely valid reason to feel nervous and anxious about what's going on. So can you tell me like what the conversation was like when you brought that up with your mom?

[00:28:53]>> It was essentially I was told that you know everyone's struggling right now. um if I want a new job, I should apply for a new job. And um that was pretty much it because I sort of got overwhelmed by her response and I just fled that conversation. Got you. Sometimes the people in our lives want to fix whatever is going on with us and so when we come to them with our feelings, they think that's something to that needs to be solved. But our feelings first need to be heard. They need a safe place to land.

[00:29:34]What do you think would happen if you talked to your mom and said, you know, when I come to you and I'm talking about, you know, how scared I am with my job and how I might lose it over the next few months or something, I would just really love it if you could just listen and say something like, "That must be so scary for you." or I know you just started this new position.

[00:29:57]That is such an uncomfortable feeling.

[00:29:59]Like if you if you talked to her in that way and sort of tried to guide her into the emotional response you're looking for, how do you think that conversation would go?

[00:30:11]I think it I think she will listen. My mom is very much like she says I'm a fixer and she is one that when you come to her with a situation she would rather solve it than sit and talk about feelings. So I do think it would be hard for her to just sit and not even process it but just let me express myself. Um cuz I am I have been told and I do know this. I am sensitive and so again I think she would listen but it would I would have to just be mindful to make sure that doesn't veer off into well how can we fix this immediately?

[00:30:55]>> Right. But when your mom is talking to you about, you know, the deaths that she that you all have had in the family and, you know, this friend with dementia and things along those lines, are you also responding with, well, here are some solutions for your feelings or do you sit and listen to them? I sit and listen and I might respond of, you know, trying to reassure her that she's making the best decision that she can and, you know, she can only do but so much. Um, I don't really jump into solving it for her. It is just me sitting there listening and offering reassurance when I can.

[00:31:34]>> Right. So, you're providing a level of emotional support that your mother is not reciprocating. So, I understand why this feels as uncomfortable as it does.

[00:31:44]What do you think would happen if you gave her, you know, a taste of her own medicine? If you next time she tried to talk about what's going on, you'd be like, "Oh, well, you know, this is how you fix that." instead of listening and and hearing her out.

[00:31:58]>> Um, I'm not sure. I've actually never tried it.

[00:32:04]>> I mean, I would try I would try it.

[00:32:09]>> Okay.

[00:32:11]I would try it. Um, because it may be that she doesn't understand the value, which I mean, and I'm sorry that you're in a position to be teaching your mother this. It should be the other way around.

[00:32:21]But it could be that she doesn't even understand the value in you sitting down and letting all of her fears and concerns and all that have this safe place to land and just be. Because it you can't on the one hand say, "Well, I'm a fixer. If you come to me with your problems, then I'm going to offer solutions cuz that's the type of person I am. I don't deal with all those feelings." and then turn around and dump all your feelings out on me and expect those to be received with care and love and consideration. Like, how come your feelings get a a place to land and mine don't?

[00:32:56]>> Mhm. Exactly.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah. So, I would maybe I would maybe try that out. See if she likes see if she likes, you know, receiving a little bit of her of her own behaviors. But again, you know, if you bring all this up, if you try it out and it doesn't work and you know, it just kind of things go back to the status quo, then I think it's important to accept your mother for who she is. Not saying that it's okay, not saying that you don't deserve better, but accepting the reality of it and understanding that like unfortunately that's not going to be an emotional safe place for you and really leaning into the people who are.

[00:33:35]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:33:38]All right. All right. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

[00:33:41]>> Of course. Thank you for calling in. Be take care.

[00:33:44]>> Okay. Thank you.

[00:33:45]>> Bye.

[00:33:46]>> Bye. Bye.

[00:33:48]>> You know, it's just part of life sometimes that we I I I really I need people to understand how important emotions are. Um I I've said it over and over again. I don't think there's any problem that we have in this world more important than emotional immaturity.

[00:34:12]And I understand that so many different things lead us to this place where we don't really allow other people to have their emotions. Sometimes we don't allow ourselves to have them. So, we definitely don't tolerate it from others. But it's so important that people, especially people in caregiving roles, um, develop some emotional maturity because we are not autonomous little bots, you know, running around with no thought or care for the people around us. We're human and connection is part of being human. So, wishing be and everyone else in a similar situation the best of luck.

[00:34:55]All right. Who's next?

[00:34:58]>> Hi, it's Connie.

[00:35:00]>> Hi, Connie. What's going on?

[00:35:03]>> Um, not too Well, you know what? There's always something. Um, not too much. Let me cut to the chase. I'm so nervous. I love you and I have been listening to you in the read for years. Oh my god, I'm so nervous.

[00:35:14]>> Oh, thank you, baby. I appreciate that.

[00:35:16]No need to be nervous, though. We're just talking.

[00:35:20]>> Okay. Okay. We're just talking. Okay.

[00:35:22]So, let me just cut to the chase real quick. Okay.

[00:35:24]>> Um, so I am a black woman. I've been married to my white husband for 5 years.

[00:35:30]We've been together for 10. We have a 2-year-old. And, um, he, you know, because we grew up on the west, we're both from the West Coast. We're in Canada. You know, he didn't grow up around a lot of black people. Neither did I really. Um, but I've made it a point since we've been together to constantly bring to his awareness when things experiences are happening to black people all over the world, especially in the States. We're right next door. Um and right >> basically um you know he he understands that he did not grow up with a lot of black people around him and he needs to be aware that you are married to a black woman. Therefore there are things that are happening in the world that will affect me and affect your child as well.

[00:36:07]And um you know the um the issue that basically happened was you know the bathtas happened and that was something that I wanted to make sure he was aware of because you know it's again one of those situations where something happens to a black person and you're just made to feel like you need to let it go. You made to feel like oh you know it's not that deep you know relax. And I think that's crazy. Um, and so I was having that conversation with him to bring it to his awareness and he doesn't really respond in the way that I would prefer for him to respond. Like I've never really heard the man say like, "Oh, you know, that's so terrible and this needs to stop and you know, etc., etc." He doesn't really have too much input, which I kind of find a little strange, but I digress. So, I was talking to him about the Bastas and I was getting our kid ready for daycare and then I guess he was getting a bit frustrated with the conversation. So, you know, at that moment he was just like, "Well, what happened? you know what about the Jews on October 7th? And I was like, we're not talking about that. And also, you're just yelling at me, so I'm going to get my kid in the car and I'm taking her to daycare and we will see how this conversation continues.

[00:37:09]>> Got you. Um so after that um I kind of realized that having these conversations just like I've had you know with George Floyd with you know the BAFTAs with things coming up and experiences he gets very um agitated and almost defensive to the point where it's like I never said you did these things.

[00:37:28]I'm just bringing it to your awareness cuz again you're a white man who mostly listens to white men podcast.

[00:37:33]>> You know you mostly read books by you know white men. I mean, he bought he bought White Fragility and he had he didn't read it until this year and only because I had it on our bookcase and I said, "Are you ever going to read this?"

[00:37:46]Cuz I know you bought it just to say that you bought it, which is kind of a red flag >> for me.

[00:37:52]>> Yeah.

[00:37:53]>> But um here we are. So, you know, with that conversation, I was just like, "Oh my god." Like, I don't know how I feel about like us in our marriage now. Like, at the end of the day, like I love you.

[00:38:04]We have a great life. you know, I know your family. They're great people.

[00:38:08]They're, you know, educators. They were, you know, seemingly on the right side of things.

[00:38:12]>> And now I'm just looking at him a little sideways like, "Okay, so why is it when I bring up these conversations, you're so defensive?" And having a conversation with a girlfriend after this, you know, she's like, "Oh, if he voted for Trump, if you know, if do you think if you were American, he would vote for Trump?" And I was like, "100%." And I kind of was taken aback from myself realizing that >> cuz I was like, "Oh shit." But like I like I've been kind of blissfully ignorant for too long to the point of like oh girl like it's like what are you going to do now?

[00:38:43]>> Um so my question is how do I move forward in our marriage without betraying myself for his white fragility? Like how do I continue to move forward like with our family, with our lives without almost holding this against him? Because I know that he he's so smart. He's so understanding. He's he's a great person. But if there's part of me that's just like you refuse to acknowledge that these things happen to people like me and now I'm wondering if something were to happen to me in public, if someone were to say something in public, would you defend me? Would you step in? What you what are you going to do?

[00:39:18]>> Right.

[00:39:19]>> Well, oh girl, the fact that you said, "Oh, if we were American, he absolutely would have voted for Trump." It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[00:39:28]There's a big gap between would vote for Trump and is a good person.

[00:39:34]>> So, >> I know. I know.

[00:39:38]>> Um I'm just Okay. Well, so you said he's a smart man. You think he's open to learning? Just because he has a black wife doesn't mean he really acknowledges white privilege, though. Do you think have you all ever had conversations about the inherent privilege of being a white person in western society?

[00:40:01]>> Oh yes. And I mean it's it's the same thing where it get it turns into being a bit defensive. It turns into being you know like it just it he always tries to turn the conversation and I've started to notice that more and more. I think earlier in our relationship I was kind of like okay maybe I'm coming on a little too strong. Maybe I'm just kind of throwing things at him where he really doesn't under like not understand. Oh my god your face.

[00:40:25]Um, >> girl, this white man, >> I know, but you know what I I want to I know that he is open to understanding. I think the issue is is that he has never really had he's never been forced to he's never been forced to reckon with the fact that you are a white man who grew up with nothing but white people and you have chosen chosen to fall in love and have a family and marry a black woman. meaning that you are going to have a whole different set of um you know I guess a different visual and understanding of what I mean when I'm speaking about these things like I'm sorry but like if a black woman is shot and killed somewhere or even when I had our when we had when I had my child it's like you don't think I'm not scared I'm a black woman about to have birth about to give birth you don't think I'm scared and telling me oh no you know we we live somewhere completely different and you know I think that you know social media is kind of getting to you or you know we're not American it's like sweetheart you don't understand. It don't matter.

[00:41:19]It don't matter. Like >> wherever I go, I walk in this body as a black woman. So, >> Right.

[00:41:26]>> Right. It's It sounds like your husband thought, you know, a wife is a wife.

[00:41:31]Black, white, Asian, Latino, it don't matter. A wife is a wife. And he just never really thought, "Oh, having a black wife might change things.

[00:41:42]It might make my life different in ways that if that it wouldn't be different if my wife was It's like that never occurred to him.

[00:41:50]>> Okay.

[00:41:50]>> I I I do believe that. I think that now that you've said it, I think that that is definitely part of it. But I also kind of because we're Canadian, I do feel like there is a very like ins there's a very large part of people here that just believe like, oh, we're Canadian, we're better than America.

[00:42:06]We're not racist. We're not this. We're not that. Well, you can be better than America and still be racist.

[00:42:13]>> Yes. Yes. Exactly. You can. And where the worst part is, I think about living here is that a lot of people like it's it's un it's it's very it's very microaggression. It's very under almost like you have to look for it, but you know it's there. And he is never really of the understanding of that. And it kind of it baffles me now because I'm like, you have dated women outside of your race. you've dated other women of different cultures. So, how is this me bringing up >> different things or experiences that people that I'm connected to happening?

[00:42:46]Why is this such like a almost like a bother for you? Like, would you prefer for me to not be aware of what's going on in the world with people that I am connected to or like what you want me to disconnect from my culture and my being?

[00:42:59]Like, I don't like know.

[00:43:01]>> Right. Right. Well, I think you're This is a >> Mhm.

[00:43:07]>> This is an uphill battle, baby.

[00:43:11]It is because first you're going to have to get him to understand his and acknowledge his privilege and how and he's going to have to also be able to acknowledge how race affects everything. Even in Canada, Canada is not some magical land where nothing is bad for anybody. Like, bro, just cuz it's not America doesn't mean it's a utopia.

[00:43:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:41]>> So, I mean, >> I would start with I would start small.

[00:43:45]I would start with like Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy Macintosh.

[00:43:49]Are you familiar with it?

[00:43:51]>> No.

[00:43:52]>> Okay. Um, I think it's readily available on Google. It's written by a white woman for white people and it really breaks down the concept of of white privilege and how white people get to move throughout this society without ever even considering certain things like like you said, you know, you were going to give birth and you're scared cuz you're like, I'm a black woman giving birth and the black maternal rates of, you know, death and and horrible complications and stuff like that is so much higher than for white women. They don't even think about stuff like that that is always on our minds. So, I would start there with unpacking the invisible knapsack. I would Google that. You read it first and then you let him read it and see how he how he responds to that piece of text. Um because it sounds like if he's continuously getting defensive every time you bring up the reality like I would even look up, you know, incidences of racial discrimination in Canada against black people against your native population, you know, that sort of thing. Bringing up these stories like this idea that racism doesn't exist in Canada and that's an American problem is preposterous. So we really need to we need to get him into reality first and foremost. And I think if you keep running into a wall there where he just refuses to acknowledge the privilege, refuses to acknowledge that things are different for people based off their race and gender and so many other things, then that's where it's like, oo, I don't know that that we can see a path forward. I I can see a way forward if he's willing to listen and learn, but if he isn't, then I'm not sure what you do at that point.

[00:45:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I definitely like I I know that he is willing to, you know, understand and try. I think it's almost just in a way it's like I I don't want to be have to I don't want to be responsible for having to like teach you these things that you're a grown ass man and you can find out for yourself. Like I just it's almost just like I don't it's like I understand where people come about like you know like I'm not talking to white people about race cuz like at the end of the day like you you know somewhere deep down. So like me having to explain it to you is is turning into work for me.

[00:46:13]>> Yeah. And that is like and that's worked for our marriage, but it's also like I mean we have we have a child, you know, and our child is biracial and I don't want this child running around thinking like oh you know like all is good like you know don't you know don't acknowledge that you know your mother is black. I mean >> right >> she knows.

[00:46:32]>> Right. You you definitely don't want that. Um and I can definitely understand Yeah. I can really understand not wanting to feel like you have to hold his hand and teach him every little thing about race and how it affects people in this world. But since you are his wife and the mother of his child, I think it's fair to not to do that, not to walk him through it or be his teacher, but to be his introduction to say, >> you know, you have the White Fragility book. You kind of read that maybe. I don't know that it even really registered, but you know, I'm I'm I'm sending you this unpacking the invisible knapsack. I'm we're talking I'm talking to you about incidences of racial discrimination and stuff like that happening in Canada. Like, I'm opening the door. I'm showing you these things because I'm your wife, the mother of your child. I have a reason to want you to be better.

[00:47:27]But from there >> from there he should really have his own interest in learning more.

[00:47:35]>> Yes, I definitely I think that would be probably a good and I mean I didn't mention this before but um he was a little bit more interested in weeding reading white fragility when he found out it was written by a white woman and that did not sit with me well either.

[00:47:53]>> Yep. Well, >> because uh why is that? Why are you why are you all of a sudden coming to me glowing in the kitchen like oh my god, she just she talked about this and I'm just like you're you didn't have that energy yesterday.

[00:48:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, unfortunately, and that's why I said unpacking the invisible knapsack. It's written by a white woman. So, I was just talking to a male therapist about this the other day and I said to him, "I'm so glad that you're in this field because I can talk till I'm blue in the face about patriarchy and sexism, misogyny, men.

[00:48:26]There are so many men who will not hear me simply because I am a woman."

[00:48:32]>> And you can say the exact same thing I said verbatim and they will hear it from you because you are a man. And for a lot of white people, especially those who think that they are good intentioned and not racist and all this, it's like, oh, you know, black people chatter. Black people just say all sorts of things. But then a white person says it and it's like, oh, well, maybe this is valid.

[00:48:53]It's like, yes, I literally tried to tell you that.

[00:49:01]>> It's not right, but >> I mean, I going to be okay.

[00:49:07]Yeah.

[00:49:08]>> Okay. Okay. I will definitely I mean the Trump thing really killed me because I really was like I did not hesitate at all. I really like 100%.

[00:49:16]>> 100%. And the thing is too I did speak with him about that and he was like you know he's like I would He's like you're right. He's like I would have but it would have been for the wrong reason.

[00:49:26]Like yeah you would have basically signed your own demise because you refused to have a woman of color be you know in charge. That's the problem with all of you.

[00:49:37]>> He told you he would have voted for Trump.

[00:49:40]>> Yes, he told me he would have with for the wrong reasons. It would have been It would have been the same. It would have been the same reasons that everybody a lot of people are saying, "Oh, you know, he was going to make the economy better.

[00:49:48]He was going to do this. He was going to do that. He ain't going to do shit." But nobody wants to actually look in the lens and see that.

[00:49:54]>> So, your husband doesn't actually pay attention to economics then if he thought Trump was going to be good for the economy.

[00:50:01]>> He does. And that's where I'm like, you are listening to the wrong people, reading the wrong podcast. It's very Oh, I mean, oh, I mean, it's YouTube, there's podcast, and they're always like white men.

[00:50:16]>> And that's where I'm like, oh, the internet's going to kill us all. Oh, God. Um, so I'm I'm over here just Yeah.

[00:50:26]>> Yeah. Well, I don't know if the internet's going to kill us all, but it might kill your marriage cuz he's It sound like he listening to Joe Rogan and them.

[00:50:36]>> Yeah.

[00:50:37]>> Oh, girl, y'all y'all might be too far gone for for Peggy Macintosh and her invisible knapsack.

[00:50:45]>> I mean, I I I thought about marriage counseling, but I was also like, "Okay, if we go to a marriage counselor and they're white, what's what are we going to do?"

[00:50:55]>> Right? Well, We're not they're not going to understand what I'm talking about and then they're just you know so I it's we are in a slippery slope.

[00:51:04]>> Yeah, you are. And you know it is I'm not sure about in Canada but in America you know therapists are supposed to be culturally aware. They are supposed to be able to meet people where they are.

[00:51:19]However, the reality all doesn't always uh pan out that way. And it's very very common for them to only see things from their white American lens and and not really to have any concept or context for what anybody else is going through.

[00:51:35]So, it may also be the case for you in Canada. Um but it shouldn't be. But it might be.

[00:51:42]>> It might be. Yeah. Well, um you know what? I guess I'm just going to have to see what I don't know. I'm going to have to see what I can do. I guess I mean I know that he is he knows that this is like I mean our household has not felt this like the vibe in this house has not been the same for weeks. Like it's been awkward.

[00:52:00]Um, and you know, I don't want that to reflect on our child and I, you know, I think we have a great life together, but it's also just like, why are you so like it's almost like you're going to let your white like you're going to let whiteness be such a beacon that you're going to like, if you let it ruin this marriage, I'm not I don't know what to tell you. Like, that is that's on you.

[00:52:20]>> You know what, girl? He really might. He really might.

[00:52:23]>> Yeah.

[00:52:25]>> And that would be a shame, but ultimately, you have to take care of yourself and your black child.

[00:52:30]Yeah. Yeah. That's Yeah, that's number one.

[00:52:33]>> So, I am hoping I I'm crossing my fingers that your white man is going to read these things and be like, "Oh, wow.

[00:52:38]I see the error of my ways. I can't believe I've been acting like this. Let me educate myself more. Let me read more books. Let me get into blah blah blah."

[00:52:45]I really, really hope he does that. But, you know, you you have your plan for what you're going to do if he continues going down this road.

[00:52:54]>> Yes. Yeah, definitely. Okay. Okay. Well, I have some homework.

[00:53:01]>> You do. You do. But good luck, Connie.

[00:53:05]>> Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, I'm so scared. Oh, god. No, I'm not. I'm fine.

[00:53:12]>> Girl, go. Bye.

[00:53:16]Invite.

[00:53:18]>> Oh, you know, Connie is also not the first person to write in about an interracial relationship. And this is the sort of thing that happens sometimes where a one person thinks that, you know, maybe things are are different than what they are or maybe that their partner has a better understanding of race relations than what they really do.

[00:53:38]So when this sort of thing comes to the surface and it's something that you all have to to talk through and work through, it can be challenging. But hopefully your white partner is in a place to really hear what you have to say and to be responsive and also to then go take the initiative to learn more. So, we're wishing Connie the best um in her marriage. And that is going to wrap up this week's episode of Crystal Scouch. Thank you so much for tuning in.

[00:54:05]Follow us online at crystalcouch. And if you'd like to chat with me, send me an email [email protected].

[00:54:11]We'll see you next week.