Jasmine Crockett Distraction Continues in Texas & a Socialist Talks to the NY Times

[00:00:03][music] [music] Welcome, welcome, Leftre Reckoning viewers. I'm Matt Le. With me as always, David Griskum. Hello, David.

[00:00:21]>> Hey, Matt. Happy to be here. Uh it's happy to be uh with you as well on uh a pretty sad uh anniversary for us over here at LeftReckoning Enterprises. Of course, continuation of the Michael Brooks show uh which David and I worked on together. Michael past six years now, which has flew by in a kind of terrifying way. Like it doesn't seem like it's been six years since I've uh talked with Michael. Um, earlier this month, I guess sort of in anticipation of this, I went back and watched some of his uh, Lafayette remarks and I was uh, sort of taken aback by how well uh, the portion that most of the viewers scrub towards, you know, on YouTube when you hover over you can see where everyone's watching.

[00:01:08]>> The the first big spike will be or one of the first big spikes will be where he uh, goes at Jordan Peterson. Um, and this is sort of uh a little bit after that here, but he's talking about the intellectual dark web and how he viewed uh our place in the discourse. And uh I think it kind of well I think it's in two six years later uh it's uh it's still extremely relevant. And what's interesting is in the process of writing this book because you have to make it bigger than these people like this particular scene and act of self-branding is already almost over and I didn't write the book in time for it to be in the zeitgeist that way. But the arguments that they're using, this is what you're going to see from every single right-wing movement in the future or center-right movement in the future that does not explicitly identify as nationalist or alt-right.

[00:02:07]The arguments that they're making about why capitalism just is that science.

[00:02:14]why we're not promoting racism or sexism, but we are very interested in some extremely antiquated ideas about scientific differences, quote unquote.

[00:02:25]Right?

[00:02:27]So, what you're seeing in these arguments, and I'm just going to bring in two other things because there's a lot to cover here, and I can I can kind of get lost in the weeds.

[00:02:37]A basic difference, I would say, between left and right is the difference between historicizing and naturalizing.

[00:02:44]If you're on the left, broadly speaking, you look at things and you say, "What are the historical material reasons why that is happening?" If you're on the right, you say that is what it is. Now, paradoxically, this is actually a reason why right now there's a lot of conflict between people who are more socialistic and people who are more like woke, quote unquote, because their moral dimension is better.

[00:03:15]Look, America is a racist society is correct.

[00:03:19]Acknowledging that truth versus denying that truth is a major difference. No question.

[00:03:26]However, if you read Adolf Reid, who's one of my intellectual heroes, I really hope everybody is reading him, he will tell you why racism and white supremacy is a multi-generational project in America that depends on economic conditions, that manifests in different geographies, that is inseparable for how we produce and do capitalism. And actually, it might become separable, right?

[00:03:55]Whereas some people who have a woke discourse, it just is. It's the religious foundation of America. There's no difference between any different historical periods. It's just this moral block statement. Does that make sense?

[00:04:10]So, some of these critiques can get really subtle and that's actually what started to occur to me with the IDW and dealing with the right because these guys were exploiting a lot of weaknesses. They were coming in and they were seeing people, you know, look, if if you're pop culture diet and you're and and let's say you're an alienated young man, which is the primary audience for these guys. That's just market demographics. That's not a moral statement. I did some brand work. This is just like you're looking at your looking at your demos.

[00:04:44]You're alienated.

[00:04:47]You don't feel powerful.

[00:04:49]You probably have a lot of actually very valid complaints in your life. You flip open, say, some, you know, mediocre bougie website that you think is the left and what do you have? Seinfeld's actually problematic and you suck and shut the [ __ ] up and this is a problem and that's a problem and this is this and that. [laughter] And then Jordan Peterson comes along and goes, "No, actually you're great." And you should have a government provided wife to miss I think actually looking at the what the rest of the show we got for y'all, the kind of stories are a variation on this theme.

[00:05:26]>> Yeah, they might be. [laughter] >> But yeah, rest in peace, Michael.

[00:05:31]>> Yeah, rest in peace. Yeah, then that's that's definitely a good video for people to watch if they they haven't uh seen it. And you know it is it is uh fun to kind of see him there because he was definitely that was a time when I think a lot was was happening and he was really cooking and he was like very fixated on I think getting everybody on the left smarter and also just pleading with people on the left and I can hear him say it today. It just be normal for [ __ ] sake. [laughter] >> Yeah, we got some normal stuff uh going on down in Texas.

[00:06:05]>> Yes, we do. We got some very normal behavior. Um I mean where we're where to start with this. I mean >> it is really uh a kind of a neverending uh story here which is this you know the Senate race which supposedly um you know we should be over and talking about the Terrico Paxton portion of it. Uh but Jasmine Crockett continues uh to kind of play a negative role in in this process here. Um, I will just note uh two kind of funny things. I wrote about this on my Substack the Rattler uh last week, but um it looks like there's probably going to be a debate, which will be a good thing uh for for Telerico versus Paxton. They haven't set a a date or a venue yet, so there's still plenty of opportunities for Paxton to try to weasle his way out of it. Um and that's notable. And also an absolutely wild um story where Ken Paxton, Matt, you know, one of the things that he's very worked up about is voter fraud, right?

[00:07:09]>> Of course. Yeah.

[00:07:10]>> Well, [laughter] well, it turns out that uh he may have been illegally voting um in the past few elections in violation of the very law laws that he's been championing in the state of Texas. So there's a lot going on um in in the sense of uh you know there's a lot of red meat for Terica to play with and yet what ends up happening time and time again is a kind of constant relitigation of this primary. Uh I will just remind people you know Jasmine Crockett put herself into this primary race on the filing deadline literally the last minute. Um, and when she was campaigning, uh, she did not have a full-time campaign manager, um, because she wanted to save her money and resources for the general election. She just did not run a very confident or serious campaign. And I know that gets people mad because you they they want you to the [ __ ] they there's a need to lie about what happened here. She ran a bad campaign. She lost the election.

[00:08:12]Um, and she said, as everybody did during the campaign, that she would support the nominee and she would campaign for them and all this kind of stuff. Well, she hasn't. We've played a bunch of uh stuff on the show uh you know about her, you know, continuing to basically uh you know, act like her losing this race was some kind of personal wrong that had been done to her. Um, and we're kind of seeing the the kind of after effects of it. I mean, Matt, we have this clip here, right, from uh this Terrio event in Houston over the weekend.

[00:08:45]>> Yeah, we do. We got a couple clips here.

[00:08:47]Uh I do just want to point out that Crockett Sense has played Koi. She's she doesn't want to be seen as a complete spoiler. though she has this Kakami theory that should be insulting to anyone's intelligence that what is needed from her is to continue to like not say anything about Tyler Rico and instead suggests that what she's going to do is help the the down ballot races in a way that she is careful not to imply whether it will hurt Telerico or not.

[00:09:19]>> Um it's it's it's ridiculous. So, Ter Rico has an event here. Uh, and yeah, here is um, uh, a little snippet of that.

[00:09:30]>> So, you stay here, you answer our questions, or you suffer the consequence.

[00:09:36]>> So, I'm h I'm happy to engage.

[00:09:40]>> We'll come to here in just a second. Um, I appreciate you being here and I appreciate you traveling in and I appreciate >> I did it for my people, not for you.

[00:09:48]>> Wonderful. I think that's wonderful. I think that's >> and it's all right. It's all right. It's all right. This is this is what this conversation's >> supposed to be about.

[00:10:01]>> So So >> yeah.

[00:10:06]>> So yeah. Um >> we have a You want to play the subsequent she goes on to social media to >> Yeah, sure. We can. We can. Why not? Why not?

[00:10:16]But for us real black folks, everyday black people, we going to sit this [ __ ] out.

[00:10:24]We going to undervote your ass, James Taller, because I know civics.

[00:10:30]You talking all that fly ass [ __ ] I know civics.

[00:10:35]And what I know for a goddamn fact is we've survived Ken Paxton as the AG.

[00:10:42]Moving that [ __ ] down the road to the Senate decreases his ability to terrorize and torture black Texas voters and Texas children.

[00:10:52]>> Okay. So, I think we've seen enough of that.

[00:10:55]>> Yeah. Um I mean, look, where we're where to start? I mean, you know, I'm not going to get too worked up about this this one individual, right? because who knows what's going on there but it is a consequence of I think a much larger problem one that you know for example obviously Jasmine Crockett has played a huge role in cultivating uh but so have a lot of other kind of commenters on on social media uh people who do kind of programs like ours um but even some elected officials in the state of Texas too um have been participating in this kind of idea that again like James Taro has like not just like oh James Tarico isn't doing a good job that James Tyler Rico is kind of like actively harmful uh to black people and black Texans. And I want to just remind people of something here that uh we're just not really seeing this in in the totality like in like the data when it comes to like polling or support. What we are seeing is that like Ter Rico should be doing better than he is. Um and that's a problem and that's a problem especially in what will be a close race if he does you know think that they have a chance of winning it.

[00:12:04]um you know it is the kind of thing that could tank it, but the the kind of rhetoric and stuff that we see here makes it seem like you know he has like zero support amongst uh black voters.

[00:12:13]Now really what is this about? Um because I've spent a lot of time asking uh researching, listening uh you know to to to programs and and to commentators and stuff um about what the demand is.

[00:12:28]And there really isn't a demand. And I think that that's the thing that's the most frustrating about all this because if there was kind of like a push back, right, or a challenge to Terico um to do this or to do that or to hold this position instead of that position, right? Then you could maybe see some value, right? Okay, you know, you hold out strong, you get the concessions, you get the support, right? But what we're hearing here is like not even that. It's hey, it's fine if Ken Paxton is the next senator. Um because why? because I think that Jasmine Crockett should have been the nominee. I mean, that is not a serious uh and equitable uh position that you can have. Um, and for I think the downstream stuff like this, I mean, again, like I don't know this person or anything like that, so I'm not going to focus on them. Um, but you see there's plenty of people like little Tik Tok accounts and and things like that.

[00:13:19]You've seen some of these things happen now at a few events for James Tyer Rico.

[00:13:23]Um, this is downstream of what's going on at the top, which again is Crockett.

[00:13:28]Uh, but now there's other media figures who are continuing to to kind of push this narrative again that there's like a problem that is of James Helerico's making here. And really what it seems to be um has been, you know, that James Helerico needs to pay attention to certain media figures and like go on certain podcasts and things like that.

[00:13:48]uh which again is like not a position that you can kind of bring uh um you know this kind of energy like in a reasonable manner uh for and you know last thing I'll say is that like all this stuff is like oh James Telerico needs to do this or to do that you know James Terrio has been visiting HB.CU cus. Um he had in Texas um he has like added things to his platform that were demanded by folks. Um you know he's has like this new massive investment and get out the vote resources uh specifically for black parts of Texas. Um, so like all of the kind of ideas like the the critiques of the campaign are kind of being answered for and again like I think you fall into the trap of like kind of treating these things as like like good faith critiques in the first place but again this like this idea it creates a narrative u which comes like that even though this it's untrue um it the it comes into reality because people just kind of repeat it repeat it repeat it and what it does do is for people who aren't following these races very closely Uh but now are seeing people getting like really really emotionally invested in it. It does create a kind of a sense or an idea that some person could be like, "Oh yeah, it looks like there's a problem here um with James Tyler Rico uh you know that maybe he's been a racist um or like doesn't care uh to win the votes of of black people uh which is you know ridiculous."

[00:15:15]>> Yeah. I mean it's classic divide and conquer sort of stuff. And uh you see this not just in Texas. Um you see this about Zora Mandani and socialists uh who won recent races here. A Ferris Forest who's an assembly member uh tweeted out this New York Times piece. Um uh black and Latino leaders ask what do socialist winds mean for New York? Longtime leaders and advocates in minority districts fear that victories by the Democratic Socialists of America in gentrified neighborhoods could mean political erasure. and Farah Suan Forest who I'll just note uh given the nature of this conversation is black. Uh would it says would it kill Jeff Mays to mention that a new NYC DSA member has represented Megar Evers for the last 6 years and that she happened to be a black CUNI grad and lifelong Crown Heights resident. These takes are getting very stale. What we're seeing with these sorts of things is [clears throat] an old style of politics going the way of the dodo. um this sort of uh people who speak like these Latino and black leaders who are getting their clocks cleaned by socialists in New York City, they uh they have an old outmoded form of politics that people don't feel empowered by anymore. And not just white people gentrifying, but also people in their neighborhoods like like Claire Valdez, um Daria Lisa, Shiovalier, they wanted minority districts. Like this is um like New York City Manny's numbers were way better uh with all sorts of communities that were supposedly never going to be open to socialism. And I would also just add it in the Texas race too, Matt. I mean, uh, it's very very apparent that there's an attempt to try to like pit, uh, Hispanic voters against black voters in Texas, which is, you know, truly absurd. I'm saying from the commentators, they're like, "Oh, well, James Telerico, if he likes Hispanic voters so much, like he can just rely on them and he doesn't need to get, you know, he, you know, like black people won't support him because of that." You know, this is this divide and conquer.

[00:17:16]Um, and it's sorry, it is it is uh an outgrowth of I think a very very bad kind of political ideology that has kind of found its way into the Democratic party for a long while. Uh, which is like an extremely toxic identity politics because it's not even just a politics of like this is what these this group this group or that group needs.

[00:17:39]Um, it is like a demand or like seeing somebody like Jasmine Crockett who did not run a campaign that was kind of set up to kind of that that was going to materially uh win things for black voters because she wasn't interested in winning the race. She wasn't interested in winning the race in the first place.

[00:17:58]She ran a bad campaign. She did not like hire appropriate needed staff for critical roles within it. Um, and she thought she was going to be able to coast on name recognition. That's not somebody who's like fighting for this community, right? Um, that that's somebody who's just trying to further their career. And this whole thing that we're seeing now, I don't know if you saw I retweeted it, Matt. Um, you know, but she jumped into this uh Netflix uh kind of trend that was going on over the weekend where people pretending like they're in a documentary, right? And she did one of these. she had actually from her official uh congressional Twitter account uh put put this um this video out and she keeps on pushing this idea that she got drawn out of her district, right? She keeps on pushing this idea.

[00:18:42]That's not true. She got put into like one of the safe blue districts in Texas.

[00:18:49]So, she didn't quote get drawn out of her district and she involved herself in that race uh to pick her successor. Um but again there is this kind of like um way uh you know of kind of centering herself above everybody else um that you know that this kind of fundamental to I think you know Jasmine Crockett's uh public persona but it's worth pointing out these kind of discrepancies here um because I think that it shows that this is not somebody who is really out here fighting and doing the work um you know for for for people uh but somebody who's very interested in trying to insert herself into conversations that she should not be in anymore. Um, what else is there to say, Matt? I mean, >> I I have something else to say, actually, and I'm glad you brought up her district and uh because the truth is, as I said, this type of politics is being replaced and not, as the New York Times puts it, by white gentrifiers. Um, Jasmine Crockett's district will be represented by Frederick Haynes III.

[00:19:52]Here's Frederick Haynes on October 8th of 2023.

[00:19:57]>> I'm about to lose you because I recognize that we got to be pro- Israel.

[00:20:04]>> Yeah, we got to do that >> or we get in trouble.

[00:20:08]>> Well, I'm coming to get in trouble.

[00:20:13]>> Israel, >> and I'm going to quote Jimmy Carter.

[00:20:17]Jimmy Carter >> says that Israel is engaging in a partaid with Palestinians.

[00:20:25]>> And so the Palestinians who don't have the weaponry of Israel, the Palestinians don't have the financial backing from the United States THAT ISRAEL HAS. AND SO THEY THROW THEIR ROCKS AND SHOOT THEIR ARROWS AND THE ISRAEL IS ABLE TO BOMB THEM AND KILL THEM. WATCH IN THE NEWS A DISPARITY BETWEEN PALESTINIANS being killed and Israelis being killed.

[00:20:49]IT IS TOTALLY UNFAIR. BUT THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO STAND ON THE SIDE OF A PARTATE BECAUSE THAT'S ITS TRACK RECORD.

[00:20:57]IT STOOD BY A PARTATE IN SOUTH AFRICA BECAUSE IT CREATED A PARTATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

[00:21:05]>> That's what we call an upgrade. And uh look, I still have hope that this type of frankly pathological idiocy that was uh in witnessed in that woman saying, "Well, who cares if Paxton wins in the Senate cuz we'll get him out of Texas.

[00:21:24]Who's he going to be replaced by?" Like this is just like and like and like I mean not even tremendous like oh I'll do down ballot because I'll help the up the top of the ballot. I mean, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But also noting that like all of this stuff is going to not just hurt James Terico, it is going to hurt everybody um you know who who who is running as a Democrat uh on the statewide ticket here. If if you know this kind of thing continues to fester, which is why, by the way, you got to talk about it, man.

[00:21:57]You know, sorry, I'm just going to say this, too, cuz like you know, one thing that's really annoying about all this as well is you get this from progressives or they're too afraid to call something like this out. What Jasmine McCro is doing right now and what other folks are are participating right now is totally detrimental to the project of trying to weaken the power the Republican party has over people's lives in Texas. It is just fundamentally detrimental to that.

[00:22:17]And being afraid to say that because um you know Jasmine Crockett is kind of invoking what she's invoking here is cowardly. Um and it's uh it's morally wrong because if everybody's saying something to you privately, which is what a lot of progressives say. They say, "Hey, you know, this is what I believe uh about this." But they're afraid to say it publicly. That's how this kind of stuff continues and gets worse and worse and worse. Everybody sees this for what it is.

[00:22:43]>> And you know, it takes um you know, uh a lot of people staying silent to keep something like this going on, to make something like this a viable strategy.

[00:22:54]Um you know, and I guess you know, the thing about it is like it's not even a strategy to like win political office for Crockett. This is like a strategy to make them. This is like this is one of the purest examples of like putting yourself over everybody else because you're not doing something that is even just beneficial to like one group of people. You aren't you're doing something that is solely beneficial to you, right? Um so you know it's something that is like it's you can't respect it. Um, and it's something that you need to criticize and to speak openly and bluntly about because being silent about this kind of stuff, um, is what gives it power in the first place.

[00:23:35]>> Yeah, I couldn't it better itself.

[00:23:37]People need to and it's nice, you know, we have, uh, establish a reputation uh, among most people that we are not racist and are in fact opposed to racism.

[00:23:47][laughter] Um, and I'm frankly not sensitive to the idea that my criticism of Jasm Crockett will uh tarnish that reputation. Uh, I I I'm beyond that. Uh, it's clear as day that if she's not a Republican op, she's behaving absolutely as if she were one. And if I'm a if I'm Paxton uh or whoever, I'm thinking, keep it up.

[00:24:14]>> Keep up.

[00:24:15]>> Oh, are you kidding me? I mean, Matt, not only this, the [ __ ] uh Republicans, like the the the like the pack accounts are all sharing this stuff. They're all sharing this stuff because they know it's beneficial. Ken Paxton is not even campaigning. He's gallivanding around London [laughter] and [ __ ] Like, he is so clocked out um of of this race. It is a unique opportunity. James Terrier Rico, by the way, should be doing better than he is right now. And I will just say this, if people want to hear some criticism of of James Terrier Rico, you know, one thing that would be helpful is if his campaign started taking uh the kind of material politics that he was referencing and kind of signaling to when he was running about coming up against billionaires about affordability and actually putting some meat on those bones. So then when people say, "What is it that you're doing for for black Texans?" He can say Medicare for all. he could say, you know, higher minimum wage, all these kind of things that he isn't now because he hasn't come out in support of those things, right? Um, that's a huge disadvantage. If he had like a kind of Bernie Sanders or Jean Mani Mdani ability to kind of point uh to like the positive program that he's running on, uh, that'd be more beneficial. Terrier Rico is kind of holding the middle right now. Uh, you know, and I think it is to his detriment. So there's plenty to kind of note that like he should be doing if he wants to win. Um but again instead of being able to have that conversation, we have to have a nonsense conversation. Um and about something that it can never be addressed because there are no demands.

[00:25:52]There aren't demands here.

[00:25:55]>> Yep. And I you know I think hopefully how much time is there before the election? This is the general so in in November, right?

[00:26:04]>> Got some time [sighs and gasps] >> but not that long. It's a pretty thin branch to try to lean on for this many months.

[00:26:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:12]>> So, we'll see.

[00:26:14]>> We We will see.

[00:26:21]>> David, we live in interesting times.

[00:26:23][laughter] Yes, we do, man. We live in very interesting times. And you know, uh, sometimes I wish I had a a kind of a guide, uh, to walk us through these interesting times.

[00:26:36]>> Well, uh, how about a guide who was the youngest ever hired columnist by the New York Times is, uh, Ross Det, uh, who now does a podcast for them called Interesting Times with Roth Statat. And he, I think, I mean, maybe we talked about when Hassan was on that show. I'm trying to think of some of the other interviews. Uh, >> was he on that?

[00:27:01]>> I think so. I can't remember. Um, but Bos Sankara of Jacabin and The Nation uh was on uh recently and they're talking about a society without capitalism. And we have a couple uh parts that we want to talk about from this which was a a good appearance by Boser. Um this is the section here about coming up right in the middle. Uh is democratic socialism compatible with [snorts] capitalism and uh let's just see what uh how this question was asked and Boser's response here.

[00:27:44]>> Just pull it pulling back. I feel like we've danced around this a little bit.

[00:27:48]So let me just ask it directly. Is democratic socialism compatible with capitalism?

[00:27:55]>> In the long term, no. We're anti- capitalist. We want a world beyond capitalism. But in the short term, while we're within a capitalist economy, of course, we need firms that are profitable, that are providing employment, that are providing taxation.

[00:28:10]So, I think to govern in the short term as social democrats, we need profitable firms. But in the long term, you know, I don't hide my desire that I I think the economy should be socialized, even if I think in this socialized economy, there needs to be a role for markets and also a role for worker control firms to be able to meet people's needs and uh provide new goods and services.

[00:28:33]>> What's the distinction you make between capitalism and markets then?

[00:28:37]>> Well, I think markets existed before capitalism. Capitalism is a regime of property ownership that says that as an individual capitalist or as a corporation, we own this private property um and we use this private property to employ people and to um uh you know produce goods and services. And in my vision of a just society, of a socialist society, that private property would be controlled by ordinary uh workers who would get their financing from public banks, who would still operate with hard budgets. They would still need to meet goods and services and and meet their their payroll obligations and and and and things like that. But you don't have a class of people who as individuals control um investment decisions. Okay. I mean, and we can we can maybe hold that for for a minute. First of all, I highly suggest people go and and listen to the this interview full. I think Bascar did an incredible job. And I think this is a a good bit here. I I think it's a good bit I think for the New York Times audience and I also think it's probably going to be a good bit for our audience here because I think what Bazgar is is doing very successfully in that clip is making a very specific uh pitch and case for um for for socialism one as as a system that is not just like like living in the clouds but actually what that might look like in the real world on planet Earth.

[00:30:10]Um but more importantly he's also turning capitalism and our understanding of capitalism um and directing people's views of it understanding of it the way they're thinking about it towards class towards class and towards like the power uh you know imbalance of the capitalist class over the rest of us. Um cuz when you treat capitalism as for example just like markets uh which I think a lot of socialists particularly like people who haven't really maybe engaged in a lot of these more like theoretical marks.

[00:30:44]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:30:45]>> Um and they're just like oh well markets because like for example capital say they want free markets therefore capitalism like the soul of capitalism is the market. Um, so I think anyways I I think it was I think it was a good uh appearance for many reasons, but that I think doing two things at once. Helping people outside of the left or people who might not consider themselves to be democratic socialists understand what socialists believe what a socialist economy might look like. Um, and also I think correctly kind of pointing people on the socialist left uh maybe back uh to a stronger theoretical understanding of capitalism.

[00:31:18]>> It it's fascinating and you know like I I actually do think Dowed is a smart guy. Um, it's fascinating just the level we're at in this conversation, however, where whether you are a New York Times editor or indeed call yourself a Marxist but think uh in your mind that markets and capitalism are synonymous like Bosar gave a pretty strong context clue when he said uh workerowned firms uh participating in markets and that wouldn't almost necessitate which I mean for the audience for most audiences now you do need to spell that out, but it's kind of clear what that means and the historicization of yes, markets predated capitalism uh by I mean centuries. Um and it reminded me of this tweet from a Jane Coen. Jane is host of [clears throat] Crooked Media's What a Day and uh has worked with the New York Times and um CNN and at no point in any of those institutions did she ever learn what the working class meant. So [laughter] she said, >> I saw this. Yeah, this is great.

[00:32:24]>> First, we need to figure out what working class means, which is okay. You know, um I forget the guy who's who's the Marxist writer uh who's written about like the different sort of class >> Eric and Right.

[00:32:34]>> Exactly. So like there is uh work to be done on this. Jane Coen doesn't appear to have looked into any of that because what she says here, I keep thinking about this because media politicians say working class in parenthesis people who work for wages, but we mean not that.

[00:32:50]Like we're not talking about nail tax when we say working class. We know we're not talking about nail text. Why is that? What? What [laughter] on earth does she mean?

[00:33:02]>> Crazy. It's crazy. It is It is unbelievable. I think um for how much uh inroads we've maybe made as as a movement uh politically in the past few years. the fact that we still have like major political commentators who haven't even like engaged with these questions at like an elementary level. And I'm not trying to be um you know uh a snob or anything like that. I understand why there's a lot of confusion in general, but if your job is to kind of like read things and engage with other people's arguments and you haven't done like the very basic homework, it's quite shocking. And again, uh, you know, not to to plug it too much, but you know, uh, Bascar, um, and Ben and Mike Bags do have this really great book, uh, that's coming out, the blueprint, uh, which I have been, uh, reading. I'm working on a review for it now. Um, you know, and that will probably be helpful for folks.

[00:33:53]Uh, but yeah, no, I mean, uh, there's a lot of information on this topic and, you know, maybe subscribe to Jackabin to Catalyst if you want to have a deeper understanding of what these things mean.

[00:34:05]Yeah. Yeah. It's like I mean to the It's like Mar like is it the Grundies where Marx gets into like productive versus unproductive labor? Like that's maybe what she thinks she's getting at or something like that.

[00:34:17]>> I don't think so. I mean I think it's it's I think it is the classic thing of like bluecollar versus non-blue. Uh and that's how most Americans particularly like liberal commentators think about the working class uh versus non-workingass position. But I mean, yeah, it's so it's something else.

[00:34:35]>> Nail texts. So nail text because they service white collar workers at least [laughter] in theory.

[00:34:42]I I that again it's like people just will get on and tweet things and it's like >> I I I don't know have hit the books like this is supposed to be part of like your proficiency that you are able to research various different like there is no perspective that doesn't say nail text like whether you're from the liberal sense of >> maybe the like the the the MAGA communist larer guys you know that that's what he's influenced by um That's I mean that's crazy.

[00:35:14]>> Well, let's I mean let's get because I think again there's a lot of confusion and I know we had another bit map but if if we could actually go to 29 um in in the thing. I think this is actually uh because we'll get to the American uh history thing in in a second, but I think this is an a good bit that I think Basor did a phenomenal job on, which is actually like disentangling this idea that like the left, the socialist left at least was responsible for quote unquote woke. Um because uh it was the center that pushed that stuff. They said they pushed it to break the Bernie Sanders campaign uh to attack the Bernie Sanders campaign. And the idea that it's our kind of legacy uh is is quite laughable. I think Bascar uh does a great job with this. So maybe we put this up.

[00:36:00]>> Yeah, this is actually in conjunction with the piece we're talking about about America being racist. So yeah, here's Bascar. Uh and I'm going to get a little bit of doubt that's questioned in here too, just for context. So to to some extent it does sound like you think that the left took a wrong turn in sort of peak woke early 2020s culture war and maybe the wrong turn was partially just talking about America like it was the most racist country on in the history of the world like what's what's is is basically was there a turn that the left took in that period that socialism can help correct act.

[00:36:42]>> Well, I should blame more the center and the central left for a lot of these things. And I think that it was a Hillary Clinton campaign in 2016 that tried to draw these extreme contrast. I remember Bernie Sanders was killed because he had an ad with a Simon and Garfuncle song on it. America, >> that was such a great ad. I remember [laughter] that ad came out.

[00:37:05]>> Yeah, I'm going to skip a little bit ahead, folks, but uh just so we can get through this music. But here is uh uh them picking up on this uh ad >> and right before the caucus in in Iowa in the primary in New Hampshire and they said there's too many white people and it's too rar. Is this your vision of America socialist?

[00:37:20]>> I'm Bernie Sanders and I approve this message.

[00:37:22]>> So I I think a lot of this came from those um those directions. I also think that >> just just as just so people are are aware of this, this is a really it is a really interesting part of what happened in Democratic politics, right? The Hillary Clinton campaign, which was the centrist the more centrist campaign or perceived that way, really did sort of try and use identity politics issues against Sanders. It's true that the center sort of tried to weaponize identity politics against the left, but the left didn't necessarily resist, did it?

[00:37:55]>> I think in by the time he ran in 2020, Bernie did try to frame more things. his old universal demands he kept, but he would explain why they were good often in terms of closing disparities, >> right? Racial racist because disproportionately it's going to help um uninsured people who are black and brown and you know at a certain level obviously that's that's right, but it seems like a weird way to pitch a universal program is talking about you know disparity. But I I I would push back on just one thing you said, which is America was the most racist country in the history of the world. And I think the left actually does a great discredit its own history when it pretends like it still is because we're a country that fought a revolution led by the left in my opinion that abolished slavery by force of arms, not slow and gradual emancipation. We fought against Jim Crow and we we got rid of that also with socialists largely, you know, at the helm or at least playing major roles.

[00:39:01]And then we got to the point where we elected a black president and that black president won even the state of Indiana in 2008. And it just seems so strange that it was in part the election of Donald Trump against Hillary Clinton that convinced so many Americans, so many liberals particularly, but even some leftists, that America was irredeemably racist when those same voters had just voted for a black president twice. So in in a way, I think I want to recover some of the optimism about the US we felt during the Obama years. And also for what it's worth that my parents still feel about the US as so many immigrants um Latino and other immigrants feel about about the US which is they came here for a reason. This is a >> um that the the Hillary Clinton class I would just spell out for folks um whether they actually believed that or whether they just didn't want to reach any other conclusion. What the what Hillary Clinton and that type of politics which is still active today wanted was for America to be so not racist that they didn't need to provide anything else particularly in the way of political economy uh or wealth in uh inequal uh inequality or any underinvestment in communities. All that stuff gets papered over because we are less racist than Republicans and they hated that that didn't work out. I mean, he mentions the ad inside of a Gar Funko. What else do you need to point to besides um Hillary Clinton trolling Bernie about too big to fail banks by saying if we end too big to fail, will that cure racism? There was no policy Hillary Clinton was offering that was going to end racism in the United States. [laughter] [gasps] >> Yeah. Um, no. I mean, I I think it's really really important as uh, you know, our movement like continues to flex its muscles and and grows that there is an accurate understanding of where a lot of that kind of what we might call like peak woke stuff uh, where it came from.

[00:41:15]Um, and I think secondly, where Bascar goes after is totally correct. It is it is just it is fundamentally correct. And I think uh [snorts] you know the left really does itself a disservice um when instead of actually centering the role of our movement, the role of like our movement's fight for democracy and the strength um that it has had, the victories that it has won. When it kind of throws that away so easily, um it it it really it makes our movement seem impotent. It makes her movement uh less uh seem like less of a material force uh and instead more of like a kind of a moral watcher uh something that sees the wrongs in American society and kind of like chronicled uh those those wrongs.

[00:42:02]No, no, no, no, no. Uh the left has been a force that has fundamentally changed people's lives for the better and has taken on uh you know the foundations of a society that was set up uh with like legalized human bondage and broke that system. Um and we should be able to connect ourselves to that by today. I mean, I remember um something in my book, the myth in the myth of red Texas, uh you know, reading a speech uh by Arthur Lee Emerson, who's like one of the leaders of uh the Brotherhood of Timber Workers, one of the first interracial unions in the country, organizing black and white workers in the Jim Crow South in East Texas in West Louisiana.

[00:42:44]and him actually connecting the movement that there those people were in then uh to the fight against slavery as like this long chapter of the left like this long fight that they were involved in and you see that get severed um you know that that historical connection got severed in uh you know across the board um you know as as with uh the red scare the destruction of the socialist movement um and it is our to to our discredit that that we're not able to kind of that long arm of our movement today because there is a connection there. Um and you know I'll just kind of paraphrase Adolf Reed on this as well.

[00:43:21]Um you know that Adolf Reed says like when people um say like nothing's changed like nothing's changed uh you know you know uh in this country. Um he's like no no no no like uh there's a civil rights movement like you know there were like the world that I was born into is very different from the world that I live in today. Um and don't be so quick uh to kind of turn your back on and throw away uh these victories to kind of score moralism points uh with other people because you know fundamentally that is a pessimistic position. Uh it is a position that is also kind of um articulating like an impetence of pe of the fights against racism um against the right uh against conservatism and anti-human politics.

[00:44:06]>> Yeah. And I like you say like the sell yourself short um and buying into narratives that okay socialism doesn't have anything to speak for besides like white gentrifiers. All this stuff is historically horshit. The nonpartisan league close to my heart because of North Dakota populist movement in North Dakota. Also uh promoted the Democratic farm labor party in Minnesota originally started by socialists explicit socialists. Um, and I'll and you know, like that's the sort of thing where it's like, okay, well, this speaks to like white North Dotans and motans. Well, Nelly Stone Johnson was the first black woman elected into office in Minnesota.

[00:44:44]She was a DFL activist. Like, [snorts] these narratives are malicious and they are massively harmful and they are not deployed because they have any bearing on the truth.

[00:44:58]>> And Matt, there's a reason that it's deployed by our enemies. There's a reason that this kind of stuff emanates not from our own movement but from our political enemies because they um you know I mean I think as we open up the show we open up the show uh talking um about uh you know Michael Brooks in that really great uh lecture that he gave he says what is it that the right naturalizes uh problems and and the right historicizes them. I mean this is a great example >> left historicizes Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:25]>> Sorry. Yeah. The left historicizes and the right naturalizes. I mean that view of of racism and like a racial society that you see from the centrists that is naturalizing it that is naturalizing these things instead of historicizing and understanding uh what they are where they come from. Um and it's because they don't have any plan or intention of kind of dealing uh with it. Well, the left has, you know, 100 plus year tradition, 200 year tradition of um breaking, fighting, um and clawing and uh building a a different kind of America, different kind of society. And look, I mean, it's great. It's been funny to see um uh it's it's been funny to see how shocked a lot of people um were about that from the right. Um, obviously you saw plenty of leftists kind of knee-jerk attacking Bascar, but like with many many things in my experience, Bascar tends to usually be right about these things.

[00:46:25]>> Absolutely. Uh, just a little detail about Nelly Stone Johnson. I didn't uh know before, but uh went to university at uh took extension courses at the University of Minnesota where she met Paul Roberson who must have been >> one of my heroes. Incredible.

[00:46:39]>> So there you go.

[00:46:40]>> Yeah.

[00:46:41]>> Take hold of our history, folks. take hold of our history as Harvey K reminds us. Um, all right friends. Well, I think that is going to be it for us. If you like the show, if you appreciate uh Matt and I's uh my perspective, you can support us at patreon.com/lereinant.

[00:46:59]We're getting into all these things on those Sunday shows. They're a hell of a lot of fun. We're able to be even more open um and uh uh dig even deeper into all things on the left. US history and much much more. patreon.com/luffrecking to get them. Take care friends and we will see you very very soon.

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