Municipal governments must balance fiscal responsibility with community needs when allocating budgets, requiring careful analysis of funding sources, tax impacts, and service priorities. The Ways & Means Committee in Crookston, Minnesota, demonstrated this process by evaluating a demolition loan program for the former Tri-Valley building, approving engineering services for industrial park expansion, and discussing police department budget increases including salary raises, overtime costs, and equipment purchases. The committee also addressed community concerns about erosion buyout programs and nonprofit grant allocations, showing how local governments must make difficult trade-offs between essential services, capital improvements, and taxpayer affordability.
City of Crookston City Council | Ways & Means Committee Meeting, July 20th, 2026
Added:Mic test. Mic test.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Okay, Ashley, can I have a roll call, please?
>> Plot >> here.
>> Alt >> here.
>> Pibna >> here.
>> Shel [clears throat] >> here.
>> Fisher >> here.
>> Briggs.
>> Cavalier >> here.
>> Breen.
>> Okay, it's time for the open form. If anyone would like to address the council on any issue not already on tonight's agenda, may come to the podium. State your first, last name, and address, please.
Hearing nothing from the chambers, we will move on. Uh, no presentations.
This brings us to the agenda. Does anyone wish to add anything to tonight's [clears throat] agenda?
>> Your honor, if we can add to the regular agenda 8.04, 04, a resolution authorizing the execution of the temporary easement to the state of Minnesota for the highway improvement associated with the state project number 6002-76RW, parcel 92.
>> Thank you. Do I have a motion to approve tonight's agenda?
I got Don, Don, and Henry.
Discussion [clears throat] hearing none. Let's have roll call, please.
>> Plot, >> I.
>> Alt, >> I.
>> Himma, >> I.
>> Trust >> I.
>> Fisher, >> I.
>> Cavalier, >> I.
>> Okay, motion carries. This brings us to the consent agenda. Does anyone wish to remove anything from the consent agenda?
[clears throat] Can I have a motion to approve tonight's consent agenda?
>> So, move. I'll second.
>> I have Wendy and Morgan. Thank you.
Uh, roll call, please.
>> Claw, >> I.
>> Alt, >> I.
>> Pibma, >> hi.
>> Shustel, >> I.
>> Fisher, >> I.
>> Cavalere, >> I.
>> Okay. Motion carries. No [clears throat] public hearings. Regular agenda. Ashley, please.
>> Yes, your honor. Item 8.01 01 is a resolution authorizing the application to the Minnesota Department of Employment Economic Development DED demolition loan program for the former Tri Valley building at 102 North Broadway.
>> Thank you. Do I have a motion to approve this resolution?
>> I got Delane and I heard Dawn.
[laughter] >> Uh discussion. Taylor, you got a little bit for us, please?
>> I do. Thank you. Um, so this is a request to allow the city to apply for the Minnesota Department of Employment and Economic Developments Demolition Loan Program. Um, so this is for the Prime Valley building located at 102 North Broadway. Um, the city is looking at requesting up to $499,000 through this program. It's a loan program, so it does have to be repaid and deed requires that it be secured with a bond. So the city would be looking at bonding to repay this loan.
Um, we to request a 10-year loan term um if we apply. Um that's kind of what was the guidance offered by um deed when we when we met with them. This loan is a 2% interest loan and there is no interest and no principal payment due until the third year of the loan term. Um, so something that's kind of unique about this program is not only that the first two years there's no interest or principal payment due, but if we see subsequent redevelopment on the property within that loan term, we can go back to deed and request up to 50% of the remaining loan balance to be forgiven.
Um, and as they kind of weigh that based on whatever development would go there, they compare us to the applications that were um, received during the round we applied. So if in 2029 there is a development on the property, they would compare that development to the competitive applications they received in this funding round in fall of 2026.
If we would have been competitive in that round, um we would have a good chance of having 50% of that remaining balance forgiven.
[clears throat] We have any questions for >> Does it have to be developed into anything specific? Um DE's main priorities are uh tax base and employment. So um with the location of the property downtown, I think there is a good opportunity for that parcel to be redeveloped. Um there's also a development a redevelopment grant program through this same uh deed pot of money essentially. Um however with the the loan term or the grant term um both are your project has to be completed within two years of award date with the mindot road project coming in in 2027 um and then having just construction uh possible in 2028 that's kind of a short timeline for any development to happen within that award period.
>> Thank you.
So I I I know we can't I think Dale you said that that area could not be turned into a parking lot.
Is that correct for like downtown parking?
>> Well, I feel like if it's that deed thing that got to be developed >> a parking lot wouldn't qualify as a redevelopment is basically what that was.
>> Be something that deed would forgive. We could develop it.
>> We could, but then it would just >> So the question that I have then is could we until somebody wants to develop it, could we turn it into a parking lot until somebody was interested into the property?
[snorts] >> We we could >> we could, but then you're looking at putting either concrete or asphalt down and let's say we got a developer and we're tearing it up. Um I guess part of it I'd like to use for green space.
I mean, I think we need a parking lot downtown here more than a green space. I mean, I think a lot of businesses down here would would appreciate that, but I I can uh I could come back with some number. I think we uh originally had deleted that from the original um engineering reports as far as putting them back in the parking lot.
Um, I don't recall the numbers off the top of my head, but I could bring >> Yeah, I I thought we had a discussion said it was based on the the grant or something, but I I I get it. But, you know, it could sit there for a while without anybody wanting to move in. I mean, that's that's I I think that's pretty a high possibility.
And we might as well use it for something in the meantime. And if it's not, I mean, we don't maybe we don't have to pour the cement. Maybe it can just be gravel or something or I don't know.
>> Just look at it.
>> Just a thought.
>> I will certainly look into that and bring numbers back.
>> So, further discussion.
>> Thank you, Taylor.
>> Thank you.
>> Uh, roll call, please.
>> Plot. I >> also >> I >> Fiser >> I >> Cavalier >> I Okay, motion carries.
>> Item 8.02 is a resolution authorizing the city of Krookton to enter into an engineering and design services agreement with Houston Engineering Incorporated for the Krookton Industrial Park expansion project. Your honor, >> thank you. Like I have a motion to approve this resolution.
>> Thank you. Henry, >> I'll second.
>> Second by Morgan. Thank you. Uh discussion be Taylor again.
>> Again, thank you. Um so yes, this is a engineering um agreement between the city and uh Houston engineering. They have already done the preliminary engineering on this project and so this is an extension kind of of their contract um to perform the services uh for the expansion project. Um, as I said, they've already done the preliminary engineering, so they're very familiar with the project. Um, they're also working with Minnesota Northern Railroad, so they're familiar with the railspur project that's happening at the industrial park. Um, and by signing this contract, we're just able to get the design process started, which is what we need to keep moving forward with the US EDA. Uh, this contract has been reviewed by our city attorney as well as the US EDA. So, that's a piece we've been waiting on is them to say, "We've got all of your uh kind of federal clauses in here that are needed and um with council approval, we can go ahead and sign the contract and move forward."
>> And this is needed for us to start looking at either selling or developing the area. Correct.
>> Yes. So, this would allow [clears throat] us um Houston Engineering needs to finish about 30% of the design to be able to say for certain where the easements and rights of way on the public infrastructure will land.
that's needed um to be submitted to the US EDA at which point they will tell us what kind of leans, covenants, or mortgages would need to be reported on the property. Um and they can't do that until they know what property will actually be retained in city ownership.
So, we need this design process to get started. Um and Houston's not going to do that until we sign a contract.
>> So, how long does that take?
>> The design?
>> Yes. they would like to have design done um to that milestone, the 30% milestone within the next couple of months so that we can keep moving forward with the US EDA. Um they would like to have the full design um done by the end of the year or early next year so that they can bid this project out and get a contractor um awarded to actually complete the construction in 2027.
>> Thank you.
Further discussion >> hearing none. Roll call, please.
>> Plot.
>> I.
>> Alt.
>> I.
>> Hibma.
>> I.
>> Shastelle.
>> Hi.
>> Fisher.
>> I.
>> Cavalere.
>> Hi.
>> Okay. Motion carries.
>> Item 8.03 is a resolution regarding the approval of amendment number three to mind. Contract number 1053917, state project number 6 00272, Trunk Highway, Krookton, ADA Retrofit, your honor.
>> Thank you, your honor.
>> Motion by Dawn. Is there a second?
>> Second.
>> Second by Henry. Thank you. Discussion.
>> Yeah, your honor. So this is a amendment to the current agreement with the state of Minnesota who has contracted engineering services with SRF. Uh they've been uh the ones designing all the highway 2 reconstruct project for the last several years. Uh this is actually the third amendment to this contract. Um this [clears throat] amendment doesn't change overall project or anything in between. Um it's just an additional fees redesign plans and additional coordination with the state of Minnesota and the city of Krooken. As as we all know, the project has been evolving over the years. We've been working through it. Uh other key note of this is to keep the project completion date unchanged.
The total contract amount for this is 1,115,544 that it has been for several years. Um city's actual cost of this contract is 134,000. The remaining 981,541 is paid by the state of Minnesota. uh funding source for us on this will come out of uh the municipal state a dollars that are awarded to the city each year.
So this will be reunded reimbursed apologize through the state a trunk cash we have.
>> Great. Thank you. Further discussion >> hearing none. Can I roll call please?
>> Claw >> I.
>> Alt I.
>> Hibma >> I.
>> Shel >> I.
>> Fisher >> I.
>> Cavalier >> I. Okay. Motion carries.
>> Item 8.04 04 is a resolution authorizing the execution of the temporary easement of the state of Minnesota highway improvement associated with state project number 6002-76RW parcel 92 your honor.
>> Thank you. Do I have a motion to approve this resolution?
>> Thank you, Joseph. Is there a second?
>> I'll second.
>> Second by Henry. Thank you. Discussion.
Uh yeah, so this is similar to the other 11 easements that we previously discussed and were approved by council.
Again, as a reminder, this is a requested temporary easement by the state of Minnesota again with the highway 2 trunk uh corridor project. Uh the easement would be in effect until uh January, I'm sorry, December 2028 or uh uh sooner if they deem that the project is completed. They no longer need that easement. Uh this particular parcel, the city will be awarded $800 for the easement or access to that portion of the property.
>> Thank you. Further discussion.
>> Roll call, please.
>> Cla >> I.
>> Alt >> I.
>> Hipna.
>> I.
>> Shustelle.
>> I.
>> Fisher.
>> Hi.
>> Cavalier.
>> Hi.
>> Okay. Motion carries. Uh moving on.
Council reports. Darren, anything more to add?
Um, nothing at this time apparently.
>> All right. Thank you, Don. Anything?
>> Nothing tonight.
>> Thank you, Dwayne.
>> Nothing tonight, your honor.
>> Thank you, Wendy.
>> Nothing for me.
>> Thanks, Morgan.
>> Um, yes. So, we had the park board meeting earlier this week. And during that time, the feasibility, we discussed the feasibility um study for the pool.
Um, it was not completed yet, but it was on track to be well, I guess I don't know if I'd say on track. It is a little late, but they are looking to finish that up. So, we should be expecting that soon. So, that has not been forgotten.
That is happening. Um, so we have that going for us right now.
Um and then also from we did have a cheetah meeting special meeting earlier this week um where we also discussed and approved uh response letter to um HUD on uh the assessment that we had received for our 2024 audit. So >> thank you Joseph. Um question then. Um so for the park and wreck meeting, >> do we have part of the the pool study already that we can see or did you I think you said you part of it's available. Is that right?
>> Um they do have a basic report done.
There is nothing on there saying what needs to be fixed or money or pricing or anything there. Um just looking at it a few of the things was the fundamental structure um seems good but may need further investment. Um it remains solid structure for further investment. Um the other one was looking at the pool actual like the actual pool part of it does remain sound there. Um but there are other areas that need work. So, um, clearly the actual structure of the building is where it needs some work, but, um, we'll have a full assessment soon.
>> Do you know when we'll be able to see what you've seen so far? That that is that not available to any of the council members?
>> Oh, that's awesome.
>> Yeah, it was at the park board meeting that we had many handouts at the park board meeting.
>> I can send that out an email. All that all that was is just an email with a couple bullet points just >> it just has bullet points >> indicating where they're at with the actual study is still about a month out.
>> But I can certainly email out.
>> The biggest thing was is we needed to find I think they were going back to the school to find the documentation of when the drain grades were put in because I guess those have to be replaced every 10 years and those may be up for replacement. So they're also that documentation was being waited on. Um, and then they have someone I think needed to come up. Um, the proposed deliverable is August 13th is when they're hoping to have it.
>> See, and on the drain or the grades, uh, Scott said they're not that expensive and I think he's going to have them done sooner than later.
>> Yeah, >> that was more as part of an inspection, not the actual >> Yes, that was just kind of >> study.
>> Yes, we had someone this Sorry, that was part of the state inspection. Sorry, we had the statement back. Awesome.
>> Great information. Thank you.
>> Yes.
>> Anything, Joseph?
>> Yeah. Sorry. Questions?
>> No problem.
>> Um uh yeah, re reiteration of the cheetah board. Great great meeting. That was that was on Friday. Uh thanks uh full-time administrator Darren for working together um with with Teresa in in forming that letter. And it's it's a long process though. It's not just a letter. Then after that, then they're going to come and meet with us so we don't feel like we are alone. Again, this is through because of that 2024 edit. We want to make sure that we have all our ducks lined up there. Uh two other quick things. Uh um on the outside of the of the swimming pool, uh Everett's mural looks great. If you haven't seen it, drive by it. Very colorful, makes a big difference on when you walk into that building. And then over the course of the last month, uh, two residents have approached me regarding, uh, that they love to grow flowers and they love to grow, um, various edibles in their gardens, but the deer population is eating them faster than they can get to their gardens. And they were wondering if if if there would be a way to help to control that population. I don't and there are different ways to define that.
Uh, but one individual then had pointed to what East Grand Forks is doing and we might find some possibilities there because I think what they've been doing works for them.
>> Did we not meet with them and they said they actually had not seen any significant or thief was looking to do this thing? [snorts] >> Yeah, know there's talk about it. I know that was with our previous administrator and we would follow or talk to East Grand Fork. So, we're not reinventing the playbook, but um they allow bow hunting and they coincide with the DNR. They pretty much are in charge of what with it. And then it's a lottery system.
[clears throat] Nobody can go out and bow hunt. So, um I get it. The deer are heavy all over. [laughter] >> So it would be nice if we could possibly maybe incorporate a you know they do it they they do it along when the bull hunting season is open. So there's just a window there.
>> Yeah. I'm wondering too one way is to to call the population. Certainly that's a that's [snorts] been done and and as you said um bow hunting is a feasible way to do it and that's what they're using over in East Grand Forks. But I wonder also if there are someformational things to provide to residents on how to best to manage your garden areas also with without calling. I don't if there's a possibility there.
>> Call fence.
>> Well [laughter] that's that there are some chemicals you can put on on apple trees and so on. Um, >> I don't know if that's if we have something available about for information on our website for that.
>> Do we?
>> I don't think >> I don't believe we do, but we can we can certainly look into both those options of a city lottery for possibly a winning or some information on the website.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you, Henry.
>> Nothing for me.
>> Uh, Morgan pretty much filled in with the park board meeting. Um, just a reminder too, there is uh a planning meeting tomorrow night and be going over the the comprehension plan, the draft.
So hopefully that's the last step and it'll come back to us and we can get it moving forward.
Um, that is all I have. Just a reminder, we do have a ways and means meeting tonight. So nothing else come before council. We are adjourned. Thank you everybody.
committee meeting to order. Um, I guess on tonight's agenda, we got a few budgets to go through. So, where are we going to start, Darren?
>> I think we got the Houston Which one you >> I don't have that on here.
>> Which one?
Houston erosion discussion is >> Yeah, there should be um >> Okay. Yeah, I think yours was given prior. So there there's two on tonight with just an update on the Houston erosion more so on a question that Dellay had presented a couple meetings ago and then we'll go through a bunch of discussions.
>> Thank you. Um, so yeah, on the Houston erosion discussion, I I don't have a lot on that tonight and I'm I don't know necessarily just open for discussion and see what council would like to kind of continue with this again, but if you remember from a couple uh council meetings prior, we were talking again about the buyout and demo of the Houston road the houses on Houston Avenue. Uh we always talk about it. Remember there's three phases like the bio demo and then the reconstruction piece of that where restabilization of the bank. Two pieces that uh um are are I guess critical to the city as far as funding would be the buyout and the demo piece. Um as we spoke before there's there's a a couple funding sources that we could use for this project. one uh like we've discussed in the past would be receive a state bond which there's typically a 50% match and apply for what we've discussed as a brick grant which is a building resilience infrastructure and communities grant which typically there's a 25% match there. There's other things that we can do as a city to kind of contribute to that match whether it's in kind donations or or other things. Um it will amount to some but certainly not for the full match that we'd be looking for. Um so at uh two meetings prior uh council person clatt asked for an estimate as what the tax impact may be for resident businesses or resident homeowners. Um and I think there was a couple different questions or asks in there as if the city completely funded the bioto demo demo project or what it would look like if we did those matches at 50% or 25%. So, I do have some numbers. Um, you know, a couple different ways to look at if we funded the project at one time in one year, what that would look like as a tax impact to residents or commercial properties.
And then again, we can talk a little bit about it more if we did um, you know, paid ourselves back over a course of a several years or what that amorization or what that payment might look like.
So, um, again on a $2 million, again using the numbers from E2S or engineering firm on what that would look like on the full funding of that, which would be the buyout and demo of those product houses. Um, on a $250,000 uh residential house, um, the tax burden would be 714 annually or about $60 a month. um $100,000 commercial property would be about $474 annually or uh just shy of $40 a month. And then on a $500,000 commercial property, it would be um 2919 annually or about $243 a month. And we just did the $250,000 residential homestead because I think it's fairly self-explanatory to do the math and the house was more or less on that. Um, and and I'll go through some more of this. Um, and again, please, uh, I worked with the county, uh, auditor's office, get these numbers, and don't hold us to it because obviously we don't know what our LGA is going to be for 2027 or anything else. These are just kind of an estimate, I think, that we can ballpark and get close. If we did a $1 million fund where we uh had to meet about 50% of that match, [clears throat] again, on a $250,000 home, it would be about 280 annually or 23 a month.
On a $100,000 commercial property, it would be about 186 annually or $12 a month. And again, on a $500,000 dollar commercial property, it would be about 11.42 a month or I'm sorry, annually or 95 a month. Then lastly, if we were awarded the brick grant, which would likely be about a 25% match, um, so between the buyout and the match and that, we we looked at $800,000 cost on a $250,000 residential home, maybe about $192 annually or $16 a month on a $100,000 commercial property.
about 128 annually or 11 a month and then a $500,000 commercial property be about 787 annually or 66 a month. Now those numbers are if we funded it in a single year what that burden would be back on a taxpayer. Now if we funded this project and then looked at paying ourselves back through that special service district um you know there's multiple ways however the council would like to do that. I think obviously it should get paid back if we use any of that money at all. So, kind of just looking at it on a $200,000 annual repayment um you know over the course of 10 years or less depending on on what options may get funded by the state or brick grant. Uh so a $200,000 annual payment back to the city to pay that SSD or that special service district fund back. Again, on a $250,000 residential homestead would cost about 90 a month.
Um, I'm sorry, 90 annually or just over $7 a month. $100,000 commercial property be 56 annually or seven a month. Um, feel like my math does math on that one.
But then half a million dollar commercial property would be 350 annually or about $30 a month. So, um, kind of gives a perspective of different ways if it was funded in one year, what that actual impact would be or if we paid ourselves back using that special service district fund.
>> And that and that's on top of the the taxes that we have to do to run the city.
>> Correct. Anything any way you spend it, it would be additional levy dollars.
Correct. and and I think that's something to take into consideration as we go through the budget season what that might look like when we get our final numbers back on our budget. But this is just what this project alone would have an impact on the levy. So by then and another question I have does that set a precedent then?
So some some other area town has has hardship then are we obligated then at that point to do something as a city to help out those folks? Yeah, I think it's a good question and um you know I think we've seen that over the course of several decisions whether it's tax abatement or something else uh fees for u you know local services or whatever consistency or what we do for one we do for all I mean we've talked about that before again of course it's can be project specific um you can analyze each situation and and and vote or determine uh your you know how you like to move forward accordingly but um you you know, past practice does tend to come into play when we look at these other projects and other things down the road.
So, um I mean [sighs] [snorts] is is in instead of like offering like a buyout or anything like that, is there something the city can do for like the different properties that city has around town to maybe offer up properties if they build a house on and then give a tax abatement for somebody moving out of these areas for I and pick pick how many ever many years they want to pick just to help them along if they wanted to move to a different area within the city of city limits. Is that is that something that can be talked about?
>> I think so. I I think that you uh council could decide however they'd want taxpay that that amount of money can you know if people are moving to different parts of the town and doing that and you know or or even if they buy another house in town you know maybe offer a tax abs I don't know something something to say that you know we want to help but I mean we just at >> No, I understand. Um, you know, I I think it might be we we could meet with that group again and kind of get a feel for what the residents of the homes are looking to do if they're looking to stay in town or move or replace [clears throat] or just build ex by existing or something like that.
Have we also looked at, and I know this is not what people want to hear, but not what their house is worth [clears throat] today, but what did they pay for it when they got it? I mean, buying it out at that rate.
>> We haven't discussed any payout numbers at all.
>> The the rates we're using right now are tax value.
Is is there a way at at 60 bucks a month on a $250 house, $250,000 house? These are these are tough times. It's hard, you know, walk out of Walmart and you look at what's the poultry stuff in your cart and it's easily over $100. So, um, is there a way to spread it out over like four years, so it's $15 a month versus $60 a month? And then it just seems if if the city was going to do that, but I do think that there should be some qualifiers because you are setting precedent and I think that in this group that would have to be discussed and so it's very clear what the intention is going forward. But but if we decide yes on this, can it be spread out over four years >> as far as what we would pay ourselves back?
>> Yes. So if we cover I think you had said it's if we cover the whole thing Someone who has a $250,000 house is $60 a month, right?
>> So then if you divide that by four, that's $15, right, a month, which is much more reasonable for a person than doing $60 a month. Is it possible to spread it across four years?
>> Yeah, I think so. That Yeah, it absolutely is. And I think that would just kind of have to be council direction on what how would you like to pay yourselves back? I did a $200,000 annual payment back like what it would cost to pay the city back to, you know, revitalize that special service district fund and on a $250,000 house that's about $7 a month. That's kind of like a 10-year amorization or something though.
But city could do less, could do more.
Um that's completely it it's the city's funds to do with what how they want and how they want to reimburse them. Um, I think it's very important that that special services district fund stays healthy. Our levies are aging like everything else and um, as we all know, everything's expensive. And if we did have something critical happen to our levies, those funds will get depleted very fast. And if we were to use those funds to fund this project, obviously they can get depleted very fast. Also, >> I mean, saying paying ourselves back is a different way of saying we're just going to take it from another place that we're already paying from.
>> Correct.
>> Like, we're not >> And then paying ourselves back.
>> It's not saving our money. We're just taking it from a different place.
>> The taxpayer is not getting it back to everybody in town.
>> Yeah.
>> I think I would at least I think it's good that we have these numbers. I think these numbers are important. I think I don't want to make any decisions today.
I'd like to see where our budget lands with everything else.
>> We can we can certainly schedule another meeting with the group and try to get a feel for what that looks like for the homeowners. Also try to get some more information. I guess I'm really nervous about taking funding out of the special service district because uh I think every few years, you know, there's a major inspection and that's six figures and then uh the city they do a yearly inspection, but [snorts] it's a lot of dollars when you get the core or the state or whoever comes in and does the major one.
uh paid in. You know, that was a 20-year sunset that everybody in the community paid.
How the community feels about taking special service district dollars.
I'm not sure how that would ride.
>> Yeah.
>> Again, if we go this route, I think there have to be clear qualifiers on for all the cases in the future.
I think that's the bigger issue here rather than a single [clears throat and snorts] >> I also feel like they have to stay in Krookton. I mean if we're giving this amount of money and then we are asking every community member to be paying we'll just say $60 a month [clears throat] give or take.
I mean it's not I mean that is that is a chunk of money for people every month >> for a year.
>> Yeah.
>> For I mean that's a Yeah, it's a lot.
It's a chunk of money for people for a year. Um, and I I would like to get through the whole budget first to see where that lands and I mean what we're looking at affects all. And so I'd like to know where those numbers land first.
>> Okay.
>> Very good.
>> We'll move on and you'll set up another meeting.
>> I will. I'll set up nothing with that and then yeah, I think I think it's important to kind of figure out kind of your own budget and see what that impact has on the total levy.
>> All right. Thank you, Darren.
>> Uh, moving on. Which one are we doing first for uh >> We'll do police.
>> Police. Okay.
>> And it it's possible we might not be able to do fire tonight. They're fighting a large grass fire over quite gently. So, I don't think Shane's going to be here, but we'll do city administration and then we'll probably circle back to nonprofit grants tonight.
So, >> okay, [clears throat] >> before we go, do we do we know when we'll be doing the park one? It would just be nice if we waited for that one until we got the full assessment back, but >> So, right now the park is like September 8th. Okay. So, we should >> So, it's quite a ways out.
>> All right. Well, thank you, Nate, for coming. So, uh Nate Nelson, I'll let him introduce himself. Deputy Chief Police Department. He'll be going through the budget this year. He also prepared the budget, uh for the city. And, uh yeah, we'll turn it over to you.
>> Yeah. Thanks, Darren. Um, yeah, my name is Nate Nelson. I know most of you on the council, but for those that don't know me, my name is Nate Nelson. I've been the deputy chief of the police department for about four years, and I've worked for the city of Krookton for nearly 20. Um, I'd like to thank Darren for the opportunity to uh prepare and present our budget to you guys. Um, and with that, we'll go into it. Um, I'll start with revenues. From there, we'll go to expenditures and I'll end at CIP.
If at any point you got any questions, um, please just interrupt me and and we'll get them answered. So, uh, starting with the 2240 under revenues, that's our dog and cat licenses. I have that at 1,000 bucks. That's the funds we receive, um, from city animal licenses.
I got that number just off our average.
We average around a,000 bucks or a little bit more than that per year.
Um the special vehicle permit, the 2270, um I have that at $350. Um that's the revenue received for the UTV permits when they come to the police department and get their permit to drive their UTVs around the city of Krookton.
Um going on to intergovernmental revenue, the 3181, that federal grant uh for 3500, um that's a reimbursement we get for bulletproof vests. um we get 50% back on those um through reimbursement through um a grant.
>> Have we just not received that?
>> Just No, we've applied but we haven't received it yet.
>> I think I think they're doing like August if I remember right. Um >> did you mean years past Morgan?
>> So it's it's kind of funky how [clears throat] vests are purchased. Um in 24 I think the funding had been the year prior. the fiscal year with the federal government isn't the same as the city. And so all those line up, it it depends how we buy the vest and at the time we buy the vest, but this year um so actually when you're getting some reimbursement for possibly 26, it's even some investment into 25. So we should get that 35 this year.
>> So how often they got to be replaced?
>> Every five years.
>> So they're on a fivey year.
>> So what do you do with the old ones?
>> Um they sit in the closet in the basement.
>> Use them for training. use them for training, things like that.
>> So, I mean, I I I know it's probably mandated by somebody to replace these every, but what I mean, what can go what can go wrong over a period if they're in good shape and stuff? I mean, what goes wrong with them?
>> I think when you wear them every day and sweat and the heat, it breaks down.
>> But the ability to to stop a bullet, does it really decline, does it, or anything? Or >> u the manufacturer's required replacement is every 5 years. shoe manufacturers recommend you buy a pair of shoes every six months, too.
>> It's set by the federal government. It's called the N. They said it, like Nate said, the the constant wrinkling, bending of the vest in and out of vehicles, standing up, sitting down in heat. I get it, right? We always joke like they change something or have an expiration date so you spend money. But those are actually set by the federal government.
>> Okay.
>> Those those rates or years, how long they're in service. So, >> thanks.
>> Oh, go ahead.
>> Oh, I don't know if I were there yet. I was just wondering like we're making way more money on resource officer. Why is that?
>> Um that's just pre it's pre-negotiated numbers with the school district. It's 50% of the salary and benefits.
>> Okay.
>> Yep.
>> I mean we're like way up.
>> So uh the 3418 under um revenues again the police training reimbursement that's at 16. Um, legislatively, the Minnesota Post Board gets monies to give back to officers for training expense. Um, typically it's about $890 per officer. Um, which is around $16,000 reimbursement we get for that.
And some of the reduction on that is like Nate said, it's $8.90. Now, it used to be $950. So, they have reduced the amount reimbursement per officer. So that's why you see a little bit of decline there from years past is you're not reimbursing the um about $60 an officer limits >> and I'm guessing we see the expenditures later on through that.
>> Yep. Yep. Um under state grants um I have at 240,000 um that's a a police aid grant that we get back um to subsidize the pension our par contributions. So the state gives us a portion of that back. Um you'll see that hasn't been paid yet, but we usually get that around October 1st. Uh for reference, last year we got 242,000 on that. Um we do uh use that revenue item also for some reimbursement for our TCD shifts, which which is formerly called safe and sober um shifts, and that averages around 3,300 bucks a year.
this 3630 the school resource officer that um Henry spoke of uh the 2027 share that we get from the school district on that is 64902 and that's just 50% of the salary and and fringe benefits there.
Um under charges for services the 4201 um that's $4,500 uh that is reimbured monies we get from Pul County Social Services for our mental health transports. um that's fluctuates. It is on an uptick seemingly um but that's money as we get reimbursed for doing transports to mental health facilities.
The 4206 is the animal control uh and shelter line item. Um that's 2500.
Again, that's an average off the last 5 years is how I got that number. And that's funds we received back from uh community members after their animals have been impounded at the Humane Society.
Um, fines, parking violation. Uh, I have that at 300 4302 line item number. And that's just based off the average of the last few years. We usually average around $300 in parking ticket revenue.
Um, the ones that I kept at zeros, I'll just kind of skip by them. They're ones that just aren't used and they're just left at zeros. But, um, the 4955 copier charge is 300. Uh, that's the the charge. We charge a quarter for a piece of paper when we do a somebody does a battery quest. when somebody comes in and requests a police report, it's just again based off a 5year average.
[snorts] Um, under fines, forfeitures, 5101, that's at 40,000. Again, an estimate, but we we do average around 42,000 the last 5 years per year in funds received back um from the Minnesota court system for fines and fees.
>> Those fines and fees are dictated by the state, right?
>> Correct. Correct. Yep. It's a portion of any like any citations or anything.
You're right. you get a portion of those back.
>> Um, and then the miscellaneous revenue, the rent storage units is 300. Um, that would be as if we impound a vehicle and we store it at our city- owned impound lot.
It's rarely used item, but we do get a little bit of revenue there. And that's what I have for our revenues.
Um, going on to expenditures. I mean, I'll touch on the ones that there's increases on. There's any questions on the ones in between, um, [snorts] just jump in and let me know. We'll start with 101 salaries. Um, that's an increase of around 110,000 and that's just based off of the LS contract that is settled for 2027. [clears throat] Um, salaries, overtime. Um, you'll see I did do an increase of 25,000 there. Um, just to touch on that. So, the 5-year average for our overtime is $100,965.
Um, in talking with John when we were preparing this budget, we used to take that $100,000, subtract our revenues based on some reimbursements we got on that, and we go with the 75. Sounds like maybe we should have been budgeting the hundred all along and not accounting for those because they're on >> I feel like we were underst staffed.
Aren't we all staffed up now?
>> Yep.
>> Would we hope that the overtime would go down?
>> So um for an example um in 2025 our overtime was 97,000 roughly. We had 18,000s in reimbursements on that. Um one thing I'd note the average um overtime over five years has been at right that $100,000 mark. But weren't we understaffed those five years and now we're staffed up. We should hope that it goes down.
>> But from 2021 to 2026, the salaries in the police department have risen 36%.
And we've been able to keep that overtime at that same number with that large increase in salaries.
>> So the overtime comes from things like events >> that we have in town, things like that that aren't a part of your normal duties probably, right?
>> Yep. So, um, going down the list, um, Minnesota Post Board is our licensing board. It mandates training in use of force, firearms, um, less lethal, autism, crisis intervention, conflict management, and mediation, crimes motivated by bias, and implicit bias.
Um, most of these uh, trainings are required yearly. Um I I did an average of roughly 46 [clears throat] hours per year per officer and generally speaking those are not done on duty. Um which equates to almost $4,000 >> to do those that's overtime >> typically. Yes.
>> Do you if I just go back to the salaries the regular y >> the differential of 100,000 plus.
>> So it's the same number of officers. So that just just increases the salaries.
>> Yep. Do you know what just you I think we had you had alluded to at this some time ago what the percent increase was [snorts] um because I I had heard we you had talked about like 5% 4% you know what it landed at >> that was ask me and not >> I think that was an average asked me I don't I don't >> was it about a year ago that we signed off >> yeah this is 27 is the last year of the contract so it was 25 26 and 27 >> we had done a threeear >> it [snorts] was negotiated would have been summer of 24 >> that's [clears throat] All right.
>> So again, I'm just curious about what I can't remember what the increase of salary is.
>> I can look at I can try to find it. Do [snorts and clears throat] the math on it.
>> Um other things are are overtime budget.
Uh it gets it gets it adds up is oxcart days, um national night out, safety town, other various community outreach events. Um I did a quick math on that.
That was over 85 hours worth of our overtime and 25. Um all these numbers don't include you know extensions of shifts for investigations in custody reports the mental health transports which we get some reimbursements on um our special operation groups which is our SWAT our UAS um TZD shifts which are reimbured uh court time and and like I said just shift coverage. Um, one thing I would just like to point out is just, you know, over from 21 all the way to 25, there was that 36% increase in salaries, but we've been able to keep it the same during that course of time.
So I I mean one thing I since our city is in the shape that we're in financially I I like not just the police department and all departments I'd like to see the overtime like something exceptional can is is there is there a possibility we can work some of these events into the normal [snorts] work week for for an officer?
I'm just saying. So, if we're gonna if somebody's going to have to work oxcart days or something for a certain week, maybe they work less earlier in the week or something. I don't I don't know.
>> How many officers do you usually have on staff during the day?
>> Um during the day, um day hours are two and in the evening it's three. There's one officer on a swing shift in there.
Um >> so if we were to do that and take them off because of that, that could put you at one officer a day.
>> Yep. Um so our minimums are two. Um, so if we took one officer off day shift, that just wouldn't work. I mean, we have to have those two officers on. There is maybe some flexibility in the evening.
Um, when you're jocking officers from days to nights, it gets to be a little tricky, but also, I mean, we have three on at nights just because the call load, um, requires it >> and it's just difficult to pull some of them officers to attend some of this stuff. Is it is it possible to budget for these special events and then just say we know we're going to have Oxardar days every year?
>> We do.
>> And I mean can we just have a budget line item for for expense for the police officers for that and then >> for Oxcard alone?
>> I mean are any other special events throughout the I don't know. I'm just >> I mean yeah we we certainly we can break that all down. I mean Oxcart alone delay it takes every officer.
>> I just posted Oxcart's schedule and it's 23 shifts we cover for the event.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. You need that.
>> Community outreach is a huge piece of >> Yeah.
>> And and that's, you know, the parades.
There's a little bit inflated this year because there's the second parade with the Shriner parade on Thursday night, but most of our budget is is is of overtime is the training that the state just requires of us on a yearly basis. I get it.
I mean, it just granted in in private business, [clears throat] >> you get people say, "Okay, no overtime.
I don't care."
>> It it is what it is.
>> Stupid. and and and and we when you're working for a company >> Delane, but what you're saying is saying, "Well, somebody's calling because they're having a domestic and I'm not allowed to have overtime, so now we don't have an officer going to that domestic." That's what you're asking on that.
>> Yeah, I'm not asking that, but I mean other ways around that type of stuff.
And then I know you get into like, you know, you cut hours during the week because you did you did that and that's I'm sure there's in the unique contract you can't do that, but I'm just listen I'm just I'm looking for not just the police department. I'm looking for ways in all departments wherever we have overtime. I mean, police department might be a little bit extreme because they're for public safety, but let's let's just talk about the parks and reps. you know, they're going to we're probably going to come across an overtime on one of those. I mean, what I I just think we need to look at those types of items.
I mean, we're going to get to the point here at the end of this at the end of this um budget process and we're going to say, "Okay, here we are again. We got a lot of money to count for our our our led to have to be this." And so, this is the process right now. We have to ask those types of questions and try to cut wherever we can. You know, I'm asking for now, you know, if if we if somebody leaves any department through attrition, maybe we don't hire them back for a while until our our city's back on better financial settings and and then maybe in a couple three or four years, then hire that position.
>> [clears throat] >> Well, with police would be tough because if you're down an officer and then you got other officers filling the void and the overtime's going to kick in.
>> And I mean, that was what I was asking because we felt like we were saying like for the last four years we've been down officers. We've been down officers and now we're saying we're full up but our overtime's going up by $25,000.
>> I think what they're saying though is our overtime is down but our pay is higher. So, if we hadn't got those officers, the pay would have gone up and we wouldn't have had the officers and our opening would be 150. I'm throwing out numbers, but I think that's what they're saying there.
>> Yeah. So, if you look at because 2024 it was 110,000 and then in 25 it was 97,000. So, the budget went up 25,000, but that's just to show go along with what was actually spent.
>> And so, I thought they were saying that they were down officers during that time. So, >> so I mean should be up officers, so we shouldn't be having to cover shifts.
>> Very little of our overtime. Um, last year for budget season, I went through and I I touched every time card.
>> Why do we need more officers?
>> Um, to help fill to help fill some of that void of >> Well, they wasn't touching our overtime, so they must have >> I can pull those numbers for you, Henry.
I think over time >> Well, I mean, they're saying they're covering the shifts. Maybe we got more.
>> We weren't before. We were We weren't covering our shifts prior to adding officers. And I can We can go pull those numbers. I think overtime was 150,000 or so more a year when we were short. So >> yeah, it doesn't reflect back this far.
>> Nate, do you got kind of a percentage what uh an officer gets called in court?
I mean, they could be there an hour or all day. They just >> Yeah. So when you're called in for court, you get your four hours of call-in pay for the court time. It's two hours of double pay plus time and a half. Um court isn't a big isn't isn't a big number when it comes to overtime.
Um, it really is just the trainings.
It's the mandated trainings that we're required to do. And when we're full staff, that means we have more officers to train. And, um, I think when you take how much salaries have risen in the last 5 years, but the the number has stayed the same. Um, I I think it showed we've made reductions as best we can. Um, and not very many of those overtime hours are coverage for shifts. They're just not.
There may be a shift extension or here or there, but excuse me.
>> But then why do we need more officers if we're not doing overtime for covering shift >> asking officers >> right now?
>> Well, no, but we got more officers.
>> That was that's not showing on here.
>> But for the overtime, it was like we didn't have enough officers last year and we budgeted for 75.
>> We've been fully staffed last year, I believe, last couple years.
>> Then they only asked for 75 last year. I think they're just I think they're saying the salaries have increased and that's part of the differential.
>> Yeah. And some of it was we budgeted the 75 knowing we were going to get the reimbursements and and speaking with John, we probably should have had it at what was spent the entire time. You know, mind you, like I said, in 2025, we did get over 18,000 reimbursements that went back to reduce that number. So >> the other thing I think that's important to know apologize um some of the [clears throat] overtime also u I believe in a 25 was critical incidents that was extremely expensive when we had several officers that were out on >> Oh yeah for killing people >> and administrative leave also is what cost a lot of prior >> I was just going to say um it sounds like the majority of this budget is is salaries. I mean, and that sounds like it's >> can't be controlled too much because of the contracts that you set forth, right?
So, that's that's the bulk of it. Did you Did you find out what the percent increase was?
>> I can't open that from here. Sorry.
Without being plugged in. So, I will have to get that back to you. I that particular folder I have to be plugged into the network again. I I don't have the union contract.
>> Thank you.
>> So, I I'm look I mean, I just went straight to the bottom line. Looks like we're going to be asking for more. I mean, I know you're going to I I want you to continue to go through everything, but I mean, is this going to be a a continue? I mean, are we serious about cutting our our um our budget down in any in any of these departments? because I I I just looked at this one and we're we're going to be budgeting more than we were last year. Granted, salaries and stuff like that, but what I mean and and and again, I understand that our city is not in quite as dire situation as we thought we were. So we're a little bit better in those situations, but still I still think we need to try to >> So I mean if the council would like to direct us different Delane I mean the actual budget of the police department itself operating a salaries changed slightly but not a lot but again this remembers includes all of the CIPs >> and and if you remember last year and if there's a different way the council would like to do that and and present it on a separate budget or something else I'm I'm open on all yours. What we've been doing is putting those in. Last year, if it was 7 million and some CIPs and we funded just over a million. So, >> the difference you're going to see also from this year, the majority as capital improvement projects. And as a city and department is, do we know that we're not going to get those all funded? Well, 100%. But we're also tracking them.
We're also putting them in front of council so they can make the decisions on what they'd like to see funded. I >> mean, I'm not for cutting the CIP because I I I don't want to I I want to get to cutting you know, just stuff like maybe overtime work work we're see if we can do better at that and and and and I know we're just going through the police department now, but I'm not I'm not picking on just the police department. I'm I'm going to be thinking about this all the way through in every department on my my mind right now goes to where can we cut anything and and and and and maybe have a little bit lower budget than we did last year and still be able to run our city.
I mean I don't I don't want to cut all the CIP because we still need to we we need to do our roads. We we need to buy stuff. But like I said, maybe we can talk about through attrition not hiring a person back. And then by not hiring a person back, it's a it's a possible for the overtime not to go up because we didn't hire that person back. I mean, maybe we need to talk about is there's just some services, not life saving services, but some services that we can get by without in some of these different departments. You know, that's what I'm looking at. I don't want to I don't want to the extreme example of we're having a domestic assault and somebody >> I don't think that's an extreme >> saying, "Oh, we can't go because we don't want to have overtime." I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about >> anything else other than what to try to to cut our budget down.
I mean, is anybody Is anybody >> I'm not against like I mean like having every officer on the street during Oxcar days >> like that's like doing outreach and stuff like I mean that's everything but I mean like it's >> it's just during >> paying everybody to be out there >> and you're in a park and wreck and everybody's out there. That's just the parade where everybody's out there >> and maybe we need more overtime in the in the police department. I'm just I'm just talking out loud here. May maybe it's it's warranted because it's public safety in the police department more so than maybe when we get to the parks and wrecks or something like that. Maybe we talk about in the parks and wreck. We're we're not some of the services that we're normally providing. We're we just don't like last year. I think it it caused a little bit of heartache. We're not doing the downtown flowers and I mean maybe more stuff like that. I'd like I'd like the department heads to look at stuff it. Okay, let's we're not.
Thank God. But pretend we're we're going bankrupt. The city's going bankrupt.
What would you do?
We're not going to come to you're not going to come to the council with a budget like this when we're going bankrupt. I mean, we're not going bankrupt, but we should kind of act like we could save a little some some money somewhere to try to maybe get back on track.
>> We're not discussing park and wreck right now. Were you just >> No, he's talking in general. Yeah.
>> No, I know. I'm just >> Just get just get on this with with the police department.
>> So, you just want to rubber stamp everything, Don?
>> No, I don't want to rubber stamp everything. I want to get through this first and then go get the other one.
>> So, when are you going to ask your questions?
>> What? Well, you you're doing a good job of it.
>> So, listen. I I I'll I'll shut up after this if if everybody thinks that I'm just barking down the wrong tree. Any >> I I think it's helpful to to to scrutinize over everything. I think that's where you're coming from. I I correct me if I'm wrong that it's our job here to take a look and ask questions that sometimes people don't like to be asked. It's uncomfortable um when we have I mean we can look at all these budgets and we'll say these are all necessary services.
I I would I would remind us though that um I don't because I didn't hear anything back on this. Last time we were talking about budget from the previous time was when our monies aren't being spent, where are they? Are are we getting the best rates on those? Those are easy ways to make money um and without cutting services. And at at I think the last time we talked about this, we're going to reach out to the different banks to see where we could get the best rates because a difference of rates of of 0.25 25 or 0.5% is a huge difference and then all of a sudden you don't have to cut services, right? And you're actually making money on your money. I didn't hear any feedback from that after we had those initial conversations. But I think those are some of the ways that we can we can we can tighten our belt and still have everything that we want as well.
>> I think I guess I think also I'm looking at it. I'm not against cutting or looking at things there. I [clears throat] just to Don's point though I would rather discuss I think we need to look at it by budget by budget and department by department and >> well I mean and right now we're just asking them to take a look at it.
>> Correct. But I'm saying >> that's what we're doing and we're I feel like Delane and I are feeling like it's like nope we're not going to touch that.
Okay. If we're not going to touch it we're not going to touch it. I think the other thing to to remind us of I'm sorry is is is that when we buy things I see for example ammunition on here and the other things that that the police department and of course the fire department and and all these other departments will need that we buy locally and I think it's another way that we're investing in our city and and sometimes that's not possible with some of the things that are made nationally or internationally but I would I would just ask each of the department heads when they come forward just just to to make sure that we can do that as much as possible.
>> Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Well, I think you also have to make sure you're making the most financially sound decision. Sometimes buying locally isn't the most financially sound decision.
>> And and to answer your question, Henry, it we'll absolutely look at the overtime and we'll scrutinize that. It's not It's not that we're not going to do it. I apologize if that's the way it came across like I I we're here to do that and if that's what uh uh we have been doing that, we can continue to do that.
And again, that was just one example of different line items that we're going to go through and stuff. I'm like, and I use the example of the the the downtown flowers. If we can find more stuff like that within our the stuff that's not really it's nice to do that, but if there's more stuff like that, like not mowing some areas, I don't I don't know. But it we don't want to get out of hand obviously, but just I I'm I'm just I'm looking for different stuff to maybe have our budget be similar to last year or less is all I'm looking at. And I don't cuz the past few years it's just been going up and it seems like at the end of the budget we just say, "Okay, we'll just raise the levy and we got to get what we get." and and there's a lot of people out there that that are really struggling with the the taxes.
>> So, I think even when we've talked about parking tickets or things like that before, Darren, I I remember when you've been up here, did you say those rates are set by by someone else as well or is are those rates set by us?
>> No, it's all state funds.
>> That's all state like parking our parking tickets here. our city parking tickets. We have administrative uh fees that are set by the city.
>> Those fee rates are set by the city, but the majority of citations are set by the state, >> but we don't give out a ton of those, right?
>> No, our tickets.
>> No, our average revenues on that is like $300 on a $10 ticket. So, 30ish tickets a year.
>> And just probably because we're nice, right? Like I think someone said at one point, oh, we'll just call them down to move if we >> we do a lot of that where we contact people and they cooperate versus a citation.
>> So sometimes there's maybe a little opportunity for some increased revenue there too.
>> But then we're jerks, right?
>> No, it's fine. We I mean we could certainly look at that. I think you're talking hundreds of dollars, but we could certainly look at that.
>> Yeah. I mean >> and and you know just just give us more ideas. is I mean on the overtime if you want more of a breakdown of from each department um I I think at some of this it would just have to determine what services you guys want to provide.
>> I mean it'd be nice >> it's going to boil down to a lot of this >> it'd be nice to it'd be nice to have >> like like for example for the police department nonlifethreatening services that we provide.
>> Sure. you know, and if we what what would it look like if we did this and and and and then there's a maybe a next level or something. So, obviously, none of us here wants to, you know, I mean, I could I could go down my list here um if you want. I did averages for our budget last year and um again averages based on on brief math but uh just our overtime for training would be around 37,000 last year. Uh it was greater than 6,000 on our community outreach events. Um mental health transports was a little over 3,000 >> which we get those back.
>> We get those back. Um our SWAT calls was a little over 2,000. our stone garden which is a reimbured uh UAS program that was reimbured but that was around 10,000 and TZD which is our traffic enforcement overtime ships which are reimbursed as this 3,000 um puts us you know that overtime that was around that 18,000 reimburse um around 40 hours were spent in court um shift extension accounted for a couple hundred hours mental health transport was 50 hours um inst stigations was around 50 hours. um that when you break that down and calculate it.
>> So I mean so I remember when I first got on the council I and correct me if I'm wrong. I mean I think we kind of we almost set the levy [clears throat] before we did our budget and I don't want to get back to that because it deprived the department heads of we kind of wanted to do what we're doing now because basically I think the way we did it is said we go around and >> pulling a row 6% with the and and get it down to three or whatever and then so everybody's you know so that would ham hawk the departments but then I feel like since then we're just going through it's like and I know it's not this way but it seems like everything's a if we get it we get it if the council increase we're going to get it instead of looking at instead of department has like taken a hard line based on where we're at as a city I mean the department has know where we're at financially as a city and budgeting based on that. I mean, take take take city take the government out of the equation and pretend it's a this is a private business and how how would you do it when our revenue is we know our revenue is going to be this how adjust your expenses accordingly.
>> Yeah, there are two issues though with that delay. I >> I don't one is one is again out of out of this most of it is salaries. Yeah.
And that's contracted. So as a as a private business, you don't have to worry about that. The other thing is certain property that needs that you need to use to be safe. Those costs, you know, for for example, a safety vest, it's going to cost more this year than last year. And unfortunately with inflation, that's that that has that that value has to be part of the equation. But I think it would be helpful to know and John can answer this is it's I don't want to put you on the spot, but at some point answer it. um you know what's the percent increase in each of those apartments over the year so that when you do get to your want to determine what your budget is going to be this is what will be based upon all these previous years that would be very helpful but I do get your point that that it's all the necessities that you need to run your department and then these are the extras I think Henry was saying about doing a fair for example do we do we want do you want to run the fair if it's going to cost you this extra in safety and I I don't know but but I think the question is what is that Um, I think that's where you're coming from. And I know I know Darren's doing a very good job with the department heads of getting down to just what we need, [clears throat] but I am just I'm just thinking that we need to try without cutting the CIP and different stuff like that.
Maybe look at some services that we can try to cut back that would be meaningful. not not um I don't know small small things but something meaningful that would be >> how many hours did you say for those like shift extension was how many hours on average given >> on average it was a little over 200 hours a year >> 200 hours and then you said training was what >> um my rough mass was nearly 40,000 >> but how many hours would you say >> um I'd have to >> sorry if I'm just trying >> 46 hours roughly per year per officer.
>> And how many officers?
>> Uh 18.
>> And John, do you know the the the percent difference in the police department over the each year over the last few years?
>> And then you said community outreach >> as far as the increase.
>> Uh that was >> 85 off top head. I could >> And what would be other reasons for >> interesting overtime? uh mental health transports, >> get the um special operation group call outs, investigations to include the drug task force, >> okay, >> department meetings, court time, uh TZD.
All right, I'll I'll be quiet now. But I mean, that's that's kind of you get the idea of of what I'm and I won't I won't drag this out any longer, but I'm just >> No, you're fine. And and also on the CIPs, we're going to have to have a separate conversation on that. I know you talked about you don't want to cut those, but it's just there's there's no way we can't. I mean, we have to cut some of them. But what we've been doing, and unless you want us to change that right away, so we don't waste time with it, I guess. But I kind of like to have council see the whole CIP from top to bottom on what you know they feel is important or not. But >> so again we're putting in all of those but remember >> um we're probably lucky to you know when I say lucky per budget and and levy dollars that may be fun you know 10 15%.
Does it does it I mean those cutting some of those CIPs you get your most bang for your buck of saving dollars but it what what I'm asking is maybe not cutting the CIPs but other things I mean I mean CIPs and other things to try to to to I mean I we've 've always uh you know one thing about uh CIP it's kind of a fiveyear plan and we can well I mean >> move them back and forth and around. I mean >> was it last year or two years ago we just didn't give anything.
>> Yeah. And so then what happens that's the thing and that's going to kill us in the future.
>> Exactly. But I mean we can take you know CIPs do what's priority and we can roll back what ain't a couple years and see what happens. I mean, it's always been a revolving door with each department with the CIP.
>> Well, in working with with John here, too, we've been trying to and I know we've brought it up in the past, I think under prior city administrator, too, is trying to leverage some dollars each year, like you said, to go into like a general uh um reserve account to try to fund some of these projects. where if you have a $200,000 project that you can't fund now, but over the course of say 10 years, we save for that so we can fund that down the road or something else. So, we are looking at that also.
Okay.
>> Smaller investments versus a large investment on some of these projects that we can postpone for a few years down the road or know that they're, you know, something that's not going to be expensed for a few years. So, we're also looking at that this >> I think that's that's a necessity I to plan ahead appropriately because a a city like our any city, you can't just say all of a sudden I got to buy a new police cruiser or I got to buy a new fire truck for $650,000. I think that's the only way to do it is plan it in your budget.
>> That's what I feel like Dellay and I are getting at in that it's like a couple years ago we didn't do anything for CIP.
The first couple years I'm on council, the levy has to go up 24%. We have to sit there and eat it from everybody going, "Why is it going up so much?"
Because we have to get these budgets in order. Okay, so we're going to have to cut CIP and we're going to raise this levy to try to get these budgets to the amount that they can do their services.
And now we have to make sure that they are staying steady so that we don't have to do that again. Like we had to do that two years in a row where we just had to eat it.
I think we're saying that we want to include >> Well, I know we want we want to include it, but the thing is we're trying to be like, okay, so our budget's got to be within a certain >> suggesting not to do that.
>> Nate, I have a question.
>> Um, for your trainings, that seems like it's a bulk of the overtime.
>> Yep.
>> Are those trainings that they do on the computer?
>> Um, some of them are. Um, but a lot of them are on like the firearms range. Um, EVOC, which is our evasive driving that's in St. Cloud. A lot of the continuing ed stuff is in, you know, unfortunately we're at a disadvantage because most of those trainings are in Minneapolis or Duth some in St. Cloud.
Um, but a lot of them are hands-on at some type of training facility or training site.
>> But is some of it on the computer?
>> Some of it is. Yeah.
>> Are they doing that as overtime or are they doing that?
>> No, that's like so like OSHA mandated stuff, some of the continuing ed, we use what's called patrol online. Um, that is done while they're on on shift on work, not on overtime.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> But what I'm saying is like they we're trying to just reel in the budgets because we had to do that. We gave them the leash because our departments were so far behind in like their stuff was antiquated. They had to catch up. So we raised the levy a huge amount. We had to do that and we were okay with that because we're like they need to catch up. But now we're like, "Okay, we got to start reeling it in again because we gave them a couple years and no CIP to make sure that the levy didn't go crazy."
>> I understand that. I I I correct me if I'm wrong. I think with capital improvement projects that once you decide to do that, you have to continue to maintain paying that each year so you have enough.
>> I'm okay with the CIPs. Like that's the thing like we took it away one year to like try to help the levy for people paying taxes but we need to put into the CIP. So just to like sit here and say well if these budgets are over then we'll just take out of the CIP. I'm like that's not a good >> if I'm wrong though last time we did the budget which was the only time I was involved because you were here before I was uh that that we had each of the department heads came up with their list and that was a priority. They even got together as as all department heads to prioritize across them >> and then that was included in the budget that was passed.
>> So I think this past year yes >> the year before that's not quite outlined >> right I I'm I'm getting that. So, so to me it's keep on keep on scrutinizing the budget to see where you can cut just to use your money wisely but also not undo what we had recently planned out.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> I mean yeah I mean we gave them a pretty big leash the last for a couple years there because I mean we >> what was the what was the levy? like 24 points.
>> 18 and 18 for two years and then last year we were what at >> 108.
>> So yeah, so so that's the thing, right?
I mean, so we did we did 15 and 18 and then last year we're eight. Well, we said, well, eight's not that much. Well, it's not, but we went out 15 and 18 the two years before that. So when you add the three up, >> but in three years, that's a lot. But that first year we did 18% plus was because it was a revolving door with city employees and we tried to >> and and I and I still agree with that by doing that. We I think both Henry and I are saying we we needed to do what we needed to do. But now I think we need to like I don't want to I I just think we need to try to stay at I I don't know when um when um our last administrator is here, what's his name?
He he kind of had a chart where everything kind of goes up gradually.
>> And I I I want to try to see if we can do that instead of these these jerks that we have in every so often within our within our um expenses. I guess [snorts] [clears throat] the correcting the overcorrection.
>> Yeah. Where we were matching inflation.
>> Yeah.
So, and just just recall too, remember last year we set the levy with the hope that we could put some in reserves. That was also the idea in order to balance the budget was closer to like 5%.
>> And we voted to keep it at eight so that there was hopefully >> some reserves left over to >> pass on. Yep.
>> So, there there was some leeway there.
[clears throat] >> Okay, let's continue to move on here.
>> I do just have one last question about overtime for that for trainings. Are we able to move shifts around so people are working their normal hours and it doesn't go into overtime? Like yes, they may have to leave, but are we able to move those around in anywhere?
>> Um, >> where a sergeant might work a different shift?
>> There is some possibilities there. It just, you know, you're leaving your road crew at minimums.
>> I'm just wondering if at night instead of three, you had two and that sergeant who does midshift does a night to cover that person.
>> Um, we do do some of that now. A lot of times those scheduling um maneuvers are left for covering vacations. Um when you're when you have, you know, 18 officers on vacation, we're we're using those to already, you know, if a day shift officer, for instance, uh takes a vacation day, that is not covered with overtime, that night shift or that afternoon supervisor would come down and cover that. Um if the the three not officers, one of those takes an overtime or calls in sick, we don't fill that shift. We just work minimums with less than standard. So, um, very rarely, I could say nearly never is a shift covered with overtime fully. It's usually a jocking of of personnel on a it sometimes seems like a nearly a daily basis. But just as a followup to that, and it'll a little bit with Henry, is it do we have a business that has security officers that aren't part of the police department?
Do we reduce contracts uh to to for special events and and not to diminish what you're doing um but to hire at a at a more economical rate that the city can afford um for special occasions?
>> Not that I'm aware of. You know, UMC has their own security uh you know group there outside of other security or any private security companies in town. I'm not aware of um any interaction with any.
>> I'm not aware of one either. Okay. in Grand Forks maybe, but not locally.
So, um, and again, I'll just go forward.
I'll touch on a few more because I I am proud in the fact that I only have a couple increases in my line items outside of negotiated items. Um, most every line item I've been able to keep about the same. Um from there um you know FICA, Medicare, PARA contributions increase but that is a preset number based on salary increases.
Um office supplies, investigation supplies, training supplies, those three line items have kept the same. Um and line item 209, you'll see I I did an increase of $2,000. The reason for that increase is because I anticipate um having to replace five bulletproof vests next year and the cost of one bulletproof vest is 2270 approximately. Um on average we're doing three um just with hiring and when you hire more people in one year as we did years ago that fiveyear am you know fiveyear time period for the renewal just kind of caught up to us next year.
Um, laundry there was an increase of $100 and that's because there was a towel service added.
>> I just have a question if I want to go back on it. If there is something that we know that we have to buy every 5 years on that, would that be something that we could just put into a capital improvement to spread that out?
>> I know it's been discussed.
>> So, we used to have bulletproof vests and capital improvements. And um, historically, like Nate said, we buy three to five a year. And a couple city administrators ago, it was determined that if it's an annual recurring expense to not have it as a CIP and just put it in the regular budget.
>> Okay.
>> But like Nathan said, this next year is just kind of an odd year.
It it had worked out just the way that the staggering of hiring of officers that it was about three or so a year.
And when we were short a few years ago and hiring multiple at the same time, they've all now hit at the same time.
So, >> um 212 gasoline, janitor, um supplies, miscellaneous supplies, repairs, things of that nature, building repairs, maintenance, tire replacement, small tools, and ammunition I've all kept the same.
>> Okay. Whole building repairs and maintenance.
>> Yep.
>> That one. And what's the difference between that and buildings and structures, which is on the next page? Yeah.
the building in structures. That's a 500 number. 520. It's a >> That's a CI.
>> That's a CIP.
>> All right. Thank you.
>> Yep.
>> So, those all kept the same. Um you'll note an increase in 243, which is safety expense. So, the reason for that increase is uh each patrol off actually each officer, all 18 of us are issued an Avon brand gas mask. Um those gas masks uh have two filters. Uh, one filter is for CS, CN, and OC gas. Typically, people think of them as mace. Um, and the other mask is or the other filter is is more designed for like chlorine, sulfide, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen, things that are a little bit more harmful. Um, those mass have filters have a five shelf life. Um, our filters expired in the middle of this year. I did get a quote from a vendor we used to get those out of Minnesota and the cost to just do 12 of those, not the entire department, was $4,126.
So, [clears throat] I've included that cost to get our patrolman um those new filters. I feel it's most important that they get them first and then uh going forward I would use some of those monies um to just have some on hand and to get the remaining members of our department up um to current current filters. Um those masks are 10 years old. Uh the masks themselves um I think we'll probably be starting to upgrade those slowly. So that increase would just kind of roll forward to trying to keep those up to speed.
um 303 on contractual stayed about the same. There was a $1,300 increase for a software that we purchased to track our training. Um it coincides with the previous line item on the postboard reimbursement under revenues um under 3418. It's a program that we input our training into and it gives us a a spreadsheet of how much we've put into training. Um, we just started it January 1st. I'm the manager of it. Um, it is it's very indepth I guess is what we'll we'll call it. And like this year alone, back to numbers, um our submitted number for reimbursement on training this year has been almost $40,000 just on just that that training module has tracked for us. That's the increase.
It's got a recurring fee of of the $1,296 a year. Um carrying on from that, all the the remaining items um outside of utilities have stayed um the same.
utilities. We did anticipate uh we did I don't think anticipates right word. We did do a 17% increase for our electric bill. That's their anticipated increase on that that we were told to budget for. So I did increase that line item $2,000.
Um after that 380 which is the utilities that increase of the 2,00 um everything was kept at the same um and then that just uh leads us to the CIPs.
Um under the 520 buildings and structures I have $40,000 total of that. Um as we've spoken the past 30,000 of that would be to replace the retaining wall in the police department parking lot. Um, as previously reported, the bricks are deteriorating and crumbling. Um, it's still standing. Um, but at some point, um, that that black wall will probably need to be replaced. Um, and I have a $10,000 uh, for a basement upgrade in there. Um, the basement of the police department is one of the last things to get kind of a full remodel, if you want to call it that. Um, it would be to add a wall in our evidence processing area, move some outlets. So, some of our equipment can get plugged in. Um, some of the garage is seeping into the basement. That's probably the nicest way to describe it. So, fix some of that and get some uh coverings over that to prevent some of that stuff from falling down onto the floor. Um, moving on from that on 550 under more vehicles. Um, you'll know every year we come in and we ask for a marked patrol squad. Um, this year I do have uh two unmarked investigator squads and equipment unfit upfit in there. Um, I bid out two squad cars at around $37,000 a piece and about $6,000 to upfit um both of them. Um, during the co years we had a really good really tough time, excuse me, getting Mark squad cars. Over the last couple years, we've been able to get them and our marked patrol fleet is is in pretty good shape. Um although our mark patrol fleet is good, we haven't done a whole lot of upgrades to our uh investigators uh vehicles. So my my ask on those two cars would be to replace a 2013 Ford Interceptor with 111,000 mi. Um that was a repurposed marked squad car that we've used for years and our DTF uh drug task force squad car which is a 2018 Equinox with 81,000 miles. Um, I would just like to just point out that that the drug task force squad has been in uh service since approximately 2018. Um, I would really like to be that on a 5-year rotation and it's nearly been eight years. Uh some of those reasons being is just that vehicle gets a significant more demand than some of our other normal fleet vehicles because it's routinely doing surveillance uh regional investigations, control purchases, um and has more of a specific use to where people identify that car fairly quickly in our community. And I think for officer safety and and operational um integrity, I think getting that car upgraded more frequently is better.
Um, and then the other car, like I said, it's just a 2013. It's a [clears throat] reused squad car that we kept and it's just it's getting up there in miles. Um, lastly, under that vehicle that line item just so we can maybe prevent asking for two cars in the future in the same year, um, $20,000 I would like to reserve each year going forward to anticipate costs of upgrading those squads in the future. Uh under ops equipment furnishing I have zero. Um in other equipment I have a total of 477 broken down amongst three different items.
The first item um would be to replace our service pistols at a cost of 18,000.
Our current uh pistols are approximately 8 years old. Generally we try uh replace them every 8 to 10 years. So we're kind of at that first year we're we're asking for those. I know we did ask for them last year as well, but um more more importantly I think on in my opinion and the opinion of officers in our department is I have $9,700 on there which would be used to add a 40mm less lethal launchers to each one of our squad cars um at a cost of around $1,300 per weapon when they're outfitted with optics and slings. That's about $2,000 and um a few dollars.
>> So what is that again? a 40mm less lethal launcher. It um it's a little description here. It's a a less lethal um munition round that fills the gap between hands-on control techniques conducted energy weapons like tasers and firearms. Uh, these launchers are designed to deploy less than lethal impact ammunition from a greater distance, allowing officers to safely manage incidents with combative emotionally disturbed or armed subjects when deadly force is not justified. Um, these 40mm launchers shoot the soft projectile out and can be safely deployed from as little as 5T all the way out to 131 ft.
>> Um, >> do you have anything less than right now other than the tasers? Um, we do currently have a 12 gauge less lethal round um that we carried. We converted our shotguns from um lethal to less lethal. It was 8 to 10 years ago, probably more.
>> Um, a they're just getting they're getting to be end of term, but as >> technology and things have have evolved over the course of the years, these 40 mm have become industry standard. The issues with the 12 gauge is the minimum deployment distance is 20 feet. Sure.
>> When you think about in an apartment or a even a school or a building, I mean 20 feet is mostly that's usually smaller than most rooms. So you can't deploy them in them close quarter areas whereas this 40 mm it adds just another level of safety where you can shoot them as little as five meters. So you can you can use them more practically in buildings and apartments and stuff like that. So, >> how far does a taser shoot?
>> Um, currently the ones we have are around 21 ft.
[clears throat] >> Um, that's that. And then lastly, um, we just replaced our radios in 2025. Um, as we all know, that was an expense uh, $180,000 roughly. And I just have in there $20,000 to reserve each year going forward. So in 10 years there's hopefully a pot of money when we have to have that expense again. Um with that that's what I have for you.
>> Question on your capital.
>> Yep.
>> Of those we can only fund two >> 40 mm and the squad cars.
>> Okay.
Thank you. Thank you.
>> Yeah, I do really appreciate the opportunity like I said um to prepare it at Darren's request and to present it to all of you. So, >> thank you very much.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
is emergency management follow under >> yeah fire correct >> okay fire and emergency management so obviously Shane's not going to make it here tonight so we'll we'll push Shane's off uh at the next meeting I think we only have uh have my notes in front of me here it finance uh community development and we'll likely we'll end up revisiting library likely at some point and then uh >> we'll Shane's on there. So, I'll I'll quick buzz through the city administration budget. That one's [clears throat] pretty quick, pretty easy. Um there aren't any revenues in this uh uh budget. Unfortunately, same thing starting on top salaries. um you will see an increase in the salaries, but basically what that's for is um we've tried to anticipate any cola that any unions or or um wage studies that we've approved. But um we if you remember the marketing coordinator used to be under EDA. Uh last year we brought that over and then this year we fully brought over the janitor uh position.
That position used to be spread amongst about four different departments. So the increase in that is actually more of a reallocation where we have brought over the marketing coordinator and janitor into the city administrator budget that that accounts for the uh majority of the increase that you'll see there on the salaries.
Moving down the rest [clears throat] of the the parah fica um health insurance same thing are just a percentage or of salaries. Um, so those are kind of fixed numbers based on the salaries. Health insurance, what we've done citywide is we've uh tried to anticipate about a 10% increase in that. So we will go back and revisit that once we do get our actual health increase numbers for 2027. Right now we're just uh using that as a placeholder so that we at least anticipate something for that, but that certainly could go down or possibly go up. Um, office supplies stayed the same.
If you kind of move down to professional fees, that also stayed the same. Um, [snorts] [sighs] let me get on track. Sorry. Um, 3, two, one.
Uh, professional fees. Uh, like we've talked in the past, there's some annual recurring is like, uh, EAP services. Um, we have some annual maintenance fees on uh um some drug testing, different things that we do. We've taken out some for research studies, comp plans. We've in the past, like the pool study, we've used line item like this to pay for that. So, there are a couple reoccurring, but a lot of these professional fees, and you can see in the past, we've spent that or more just kind of projects or or or things that have come up that we've used this this money for. So um communications actually reduced a little bit that's just based on cell phone for HR and city administrator uh training travel um we have reduced that over the years you'll see it's it's not as much coming out this year and that's based again just on the vacancy and the city administrator position on I think some trainings that that had prior gone to that um legal public notices we've cut that down in half to $3,000 again just doing an audit of the past budgets and where we're at. Uh we just felt appropriate that to cut that down uh by basically 100% cut it in half I should say or 50% cut it in half uh would cover that. [snorts] Uh 354 public information that's at 17,500.
Um so again uh the marketing coordinator position which was used to be under EDA if you remember that budget was about 85,000 we reduced that to 17,500. So the majority of that is used for marketing coordinating or marketing uh um with the marketing position that [clears throat] we use that line item for um let's see subscription and due stayed the same workers comp the same and then again just the CIP that we put in here um was for is for office equipment to start replacing some of the office or desks and chairs at city hall.
In a nutshell, that is the budget. So, the majority of it salaries went up a little bit, but again, remember it was real reallocation that we brought over.
Otherwise, everything else has stayed pretty static in that budget.
And this is very similar to Thank you, Darren. To the police budget, and I'm sure it'll be well, maybe not so much for the fire department, but when we talk about budgets, there's there's a lot of this you can't touch. I mean it salaries is you know and and plus the fe the FICA the PAR the health that's easily over 85% of your overall budget.
So you're looking at when you want to have some wiggle room is you're looking at that 15%. So it's actually already lean which makes it challenging um but also makes it easy sometimes in terms of your discussion as well where do you cut?
So, unless there's any other questions on that, I guess I just wanted to circle back on one topic. Um, and if you want to talk about it for a little bit, great. If not, you want to circle back, that's fine, too. Um, I know I was out uh a meeting ago and and John did bring it up. We're doing the city council uh mayor budget in reference nonprofit grants.
If you recall, we we discussed that. We we did not put a dollar amount in there for a placeholder. I just wanted to revisit that and and kind of feel how council wants to move forward if you want to leave it at zero until we find um kind of the total overall what the budget's going to look like or if there's a placeholder you want us to put in there moving forward. So >> that's for like the um >> Tri Valley and Golden Link.
So we we haven't budgeted anything at all and and if that's what you want to do moving forward until [clears throat] I >> I feel like we need to I mean we tried to do it a couple years ago but it didn't kind of stick. I think we we tried to say what it was it could be like aundred and can't remember what that number was.
>> I mean >> last year we spent 113,000 >> 113 >> which was less I think than the 120 we originally kind of set.
>> So I mean I I I think to be realistic I mean I think we should >> try to at least be the same. I mean >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. two.
>> I mean, >> I know everybody's got their um special interest that they want to do, but I mean, >> I think we try to work it down like you maybe just couple couple of them or >> or if we do a dollar amount like no more than >> I think the only ones we help out is uh Tri Valley bus and Golden Link. We also we also helped the Did we or did we not do the animal shelter?
>> We did this.
>> I know we did >> we did we didn't in 26.
>> We did care and share.
>> We did the care and share.
>> We did oxart.
>> So in 2025 we funded $112,000 worth of nonprofit grants. In 2026 we did 113 and we did 75 to the Golden Link. We did 17,000 to Tri Valley, 6,000 ox cart and 15,000 car and share last year.
>> I think we set a dollar amount and if everybody has special interest, they come out of that special that piece of the pie >> and other people get less. I mean, >> yeah, >> say so say for now we pick $100,000 or even 113 what we did last year and no more. We agree to do no more. I'm kind of at like 60. I was thinking 75 total >> total. I mean, I'm with you. I mean, I know we got to the end last year and everybody started throwing in, oh, I really want to do this one. And I'm like, well, I want to do this one. And I'm like, I listen, I I I get everybody's got their special interest, but we got to we got to >> I mean, the two biggest ones that I think are the the the ones that I think do the most back for our community is the Golden Link and the Tri Valley bus, >> right?
>> So, if I had to just pick two and just be done, th those would be it.
>> Yep. I agree. I think I would on that and then Oxcart because that is a big community event that a majority Yeah.
>> of our community members participate in >> and >> yeah but then again they're they're out there raising funds and you know and stuff and they're they're going to they're going to have the oxart days whether we >> correct but I >> so could all the others.
>> I mean right I mean let's do everything.
I mean >> I got no I right we're getting down there. I mean, so we're going down the rabbit hole of like >> we don't need to make choices now, but I do think setting >> I mean we we can make an argument for every single one.
>> I think my biggest thing is if we do it, I would like them to provide and I had asked it on last year of what is the percentage of our population that this will affect. If you were asking for that grant, is it going to service 50 people or will it service 2,000 people?
>> So, >> I would push I would even push a little bit more than that. I I think when I had asked a question at that time about their finances and then there was a push back. Well, we don't need to know that.
I think when when an entity comes up asking >> based on >> Go ahead. Sorry.
>> That's okay. I I I I I think it's okay to ask, you know, how are you spending your money and because you're coming up here for a reason and and I think a reasonable explanation. Um we're not we wouldn't ask that unless they're coming up for money. But but I I I do think also with with setting up a certain amount I think is helpful and I I was thinking closer to 75 myself >> based on that criteria that you just said the ox cart days should get the majority of it because that >> I'm not saying that the >> I'm just saying but that they they the oxcart supports more people in the city of Kristen than any other of these things combined probably >> because there's more people that come out for oxcart days than ride the bus or go go to the Golden Link, right?
>> I don't know. I think both of those are both very high.
>> The bus gets pretty good traffic >> and so does the Golden Link. I mean, I'm not discrediting those. No, >> but I think to your point of asking that and I also don't feel like we should be paying for people's wages. I don't think the funds should be allowed to go towards people's wages >> and I think they have to do their own work to be fiscally responsible as well.
>> Yes.
[snorts] >> Yeah. I I I kind of agree with Joseph a little bit. I mean, we're getting in the weeds to a little bit to telling them how to >> operate and I don't I don't think we should be doing that either. But >> I don't think that's telling them how to operate. I'm just asking >> if we're telling them they say you got to cut back on this and this and this.
>> I'm not asking them to cut back on anything that I did not ask on that.
>> No, I'm not saying Yeah, but if we if we're asking them to prove their and say, "Well, why are you spending that?"
Is that what >> what I'm saying is if they're coming in and they're asking for funds, I want a specific item that I'm going to use these funds for this, not I'm coming in because here's our finances and for us to continue to be able to run. I need to make payroll and I need you I need the taxpayers to make this payroll. What I would like to know is you're coming in and you are using this for a specific item that will [clears throat] enhance what we are doing which enhances our community.
>> Yeah.
>> So like a fridge or something like that.
>> Yes. like they right so let's say the golden link they need x amount for a kitchen update or to do this I can get behind that where I struggle is we're paying your taxes and your payroll >> I mean if I think for for budgeting purposes now if if everybody agrees to set it at least at the same where we're at last year, but maybe try [clears throat] to go down and then maybe just try to stay with like a couple of foot. I mean, >> we never go down.
>> I know. We just set it at 100,000.
That's 13,000 off and then we can whittle it down afterwards.
>> Yeah, could do that.
>> I mean, I'm I'm for that. I mean >> I think we also need to make it very clear that they have to come and present and on that day >> if this money is important to you then you need to have someone here to present on that >> I'm not considering anybody that doesn't show up and >> so last year the applications were due September 18th um I don't have all that in front of me I can bring back that that information but that was another reason why I want to ask just kind of have a placeholder and then we and start moving forward >> or should we just >> I mean we could just make it really simple and just say we're we're just supporting two and be done >> and that takes all the extra work out of it.
>> Supporting the Golden Lake supporting Tri Valley bus and call it a day.
>> Then those are basically line items.
>> Huh? If we're going to say that then they're basically line items.
>> Yeah, >> I think those are those are valuable they provide valuable services. I I I would prefer to see that we set a dollar amount and then you could decide to fund multiple organizations. I just get a percent of that.
>> Okay. Yeah. So, 100 grand. 100 grand is good.
>> Could we also have their deadline be earlier? So, then we >> Yeah, I'll I'll look through that uh process. I'll provide an update on that.
Um >> September 18th. Well, that's when we they were due last year, submitted to city hall and then um came back at a subsequent >> It seemed like we talked about a lot of meetings last year.
>> I I'll review that process. I'm not sure if there's like a process where we do it the same times every year if that's just where it fell last year because of the budget process. But I think we can that's another reason I want to talk is I think we can get that going sooner than later. So, one other question, and maybe you can help me with this. At at we're still working to dig out from where we were, but at at at some point, are we going to be able to review the um the actual dollar or the actual where we're at in the actual budget to to to like have a conversation about it in the meeting, say, "Okay, um July is done. Here's here's May this is actual numbers and we could go through it and say okay what's what's happening here is that something that or is it quarterly or how tell me how what's what's your vision >> um vision will get monthly probably at least update on like the cash and everything probably I would >> in the near term quarterly as far as probably more big picture numbers and um budget versus actual like I said actually going through this process find we're still finding little things here and there that >> you know you start getting to the smaller started with the big stuff and we're whittling things down and so even going through this process >> you did say like the last month these numbers of the actuals are as of July >> yeah so we're we are up to date on um enter like our transaction data entry is now current so we're not lagging behind so we are able we are working Um, uh, June Bank wreck actually just we're working through some stuff historically to clean those up, but all the activity is currently entered. So, I've always envisioned, you know, I it has not happened since I've been on the council my seven years that we could actually sit down and have conversations about, okay, this is the this is the final number for this particular month and where we're at year to date and and ask questions about, boy, this is [clears throat] this is looking out of whack. What are we doing to for the rest of the year? I mean, just conversations like that. We have yet to ever >> Yeah.
>> ever have that in a meeting.
>> And I'm just looking.
>> You're looking at the percentage.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, not necessarily because I know there's things that skew numbers like obviously you're you're you got a huge snow removal budget and we're in July and so that obviously is not we're not tapping into that. Or maybe it's March and we've already used 90% of our snow removal budget for the year and that's >> it's not good, >> you know, just I mean >> sir, what you're asking for is just like maybe a a quarterly financial meeting.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> All right. So So tell me based on your experience, how does that look in other areas? what what is a good practice to do for the council to see where we're at and instead of getting to the end of the year and say, "Oh my god, we blew our budget and now now we got to do this."
So >> yeah, I mean I would um >> what do you think best practice would be?
>> You know, it all depends on I t you know to me it's different councils have it tailored differently. Some want to see individual full trial balances. I would recommend more of uh the summary like Joseph talked about like department totals. Um and then because the department heads are monitoring their budgets more diligently per every you know monthly than probably what the council um needs to but to be informed I guess getting those those summaries by department. I mean, I'm good with what you recommend. If you recommend that we get like a summary and then we can see kind of how we're going throughout the year and maybe if we see some huge outliers could ask a question about that, I guess. Is that >> Yeah. So, yeah, you're seeing the summaries and so you're all informed and if there is something that you have additional questions on like that's where then the department heads are are are monitoring that continuously um and uh can answer those questions at that point. you know, if we happen to see particular item that's over budget already and it's September, >> ask ask some questions of what's what's what are we going to do the rest of the year? You know, what's what's the what's the plan? So, >> would be good. Yeah.
>> If we could somehow work that in, >> I think that would be >> probably somewhere.
>> That'd be good.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yep. And we'll look through see what reports they have specifically in the system to kind of generate um Yeah. like said quarterly financials >> and then on top of all that that that elusive number that I've been always looking for the to see at that on a quarterly basis too of how that's going up and down that um on on what am I >> the unreserved fund balance.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So it would include not not just a budget versus actual but it would include a a summary balance sheet as well.
>> Yeah.
>> See those assets.
>> Okay. That would be good. Thank you.
Very good.
>> Anything else, [snorts] Darren?
>> No, I appreciate it. Thank you. We'll continue to work on these. Um, try to narrow them down and and and again, just because we talked about them today doesn't mean that's gold, right? We can go back, we can revisit them. We're happy to talk about them again, >> make sure council's completely comfortable before any budgets approved.
So, I don't want you to think they were trying to sneak anything by or just because we presented something that's the final product.
>> And I I wasn't I wasn't thinking that at all. I I know you guys are working hard on these budgets and that's not that's not the point I was trying to get at.
I'm just trying to see if there's you know I like I said I remember the old council days they would come in and say this is your number >> y >> hit it and I don't I didn't I never like that.
>> Yeah.
>> So >> well very much appreciated. Thank you.
>> Okay. Thank you everybody. We are adjourned.
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