Holding Power Accountable: Phala Phala, Immigration, and the ATM Vision with Vuyo Zungula

[00:00:00]Over 90% of South Africa's wealth is owned [music] by less than 10% of the population. So that structure on on its own is a recipe [music] for disaster. If we can talk about the July unrest, government failed there like it did not have any form of authority. It was not the first time the ANC uses their majority in parliament to squash any form of accountability. [music] And perhaps maybe it's not even the last time. what the NC is fighting and the president again is fighting. They do not want any form of inquir. What does that tell you? They hiding something. [music] Welcome back to Palatable Politics, a show we make politics palatable with me, your host TJ Masella. Welcome to [music] the show. In today's session, we're going to be discussing ATM as part of giving insights into the election and November 2026 and also generally what's happening in our politics. Here to give us insight is a parliament party leader, Mr. Voy Zung.

[00:01:04]Welcome to the show.

[00:01:05]>> Thank you so much, TJ, and we appreciate the opportunity.

[00:01:11]No. Uh I won't lie. It is something people take for granted but your willingness and your availability to come. We [clears throat] do appreciate that. ATM African transformation movement. How did it come about?

[00:01:28]um 2018 there was the church leaders who sat together and said they want to have some form of influence in terms of how things happen in our country governance wise they've always had a relationship with the um I'm talking about majority the African indigenous churches um abostar all of those African indigenous churches However, [snorts] the biggest issue is that they felt that when they vote after the elections, the ANC does not really consult them on issues of governance.

[00:02:09]So, their relationship is one-sided.

[00:02:11]Election season comes, they give them votes. After um people have voted, the ANC does not engage such leaders with the view of trying to understand um what are the needs and what could be done. Um similarly um traditional leaders as well that the same cry. So basically ATM was formed by the coming together of uh majority um the African indigenous churches traditional leaders and they were very clear to say we don't want a party just for a particular religious grouping or a party that is going to focus only on traditional issues. want a party that will represent South Africa in its um South Africans in its entirety. So that is how ATM came about in 2018. And there's a I guess from narrative or a belief that religion should stay there and politics should stay there.

[00:03:12]What's your views on that?

[00:03:14]Um it's very clear as a country that we need to have some form of a valuesdriven society like build the moral character of South Africans, build an identity of South Africans. Um hence you find that people say when for example you move to Germany you want to have citizenship of Germany it's not really about having the papers but they try to get your mentality try to get your character not only to be German in terms of your citizenship but also at heart and that is something that is valuesdriven. So our view as a party is to say South Africa as well needs to build and to be clear about building a moral character because when you build a moral character you build a type of citizen that you would want. So for us we don't view ourselves as a religious organization.

[00:04:07]We view ourselves as a valuesdriven organization or values anchored organization. And these values are universal whether someone is religious or someone is not religious. And if you were to observe how we how we approach our politics, we've never taken a posture to say um this is what religion says, therefore XY Z must happen. Um we always address issues as they are but we're very clear on the morality um side of things because we're of a very strong view to say whilst you you will have policies to address some issues in society but if you don't build a certain moral character of South Africans you are not going to be able to deal with some of the issues >> and now the relationship between religion and tradition >> um it's a very important um and complimentary um relationship because I think both they speak to the issue of building the moral character. If you go for example to tradition um traditional institutions they always talk about the culture where people come from and what values they need to live by from a cultural traditional perspective. go to religious organizations, they talk about your your moral character from a spiritual driven perspective. So, but they complement each other because ultimately they create a um they create a society or citizens in society that ought to behave and act in a certain way. And you will see the importance of such institutions when there's a times of instability.

[00:05:51]You'll recall in 2021 when there was the unrest the government actually went I remember they went to KZ and Debon in particular they tried engaging with the religious leaders leaders of third churches and said please assist us to get through society because when you speak people listen because of the moral authority they have. Similarly, now you'll pick up that in the um past 2 or 3 days, the president met with um traditional leaders, the kings and the king um the kings and the queens of our country with the view of wanting to influence them to take a particular posture for the um for the June 30 and demonstration by South Africans simply because they as government because they don't have moral authority. the kings and the queens the real leaders have got moral authority. So you find that these institutions then they assist in terms of creating a conducive um environment for the government to actually govern because can you imagine if we can talk about the July unrest government failed there like it did not have any form of authority. It took religious leaders to be brought in and assisted in terms of bringing calm, order and stability in our country. However, the issue that we have as a party is that that should not only be something that is left only when there's a crisis. Um because back then there was a crisis in the eyes of government. Even now for the June 30 demonstrations, peaceful demonstrations, the government again is wanting to make use um of our real leaders in a manner that is not really respecting them because why only approach them when there's a crisis but when you are you don't approach them to be forwardlooking to say how then do we build a type of South African. So that is in our view the the importance in terms of how these instit institutions complement each other and the overall um value they bring in our society.

[00:08:03]>> In theory one would have assumed that the department of cocka they would primarily be their job in terms of engaging and bringing together traditional leaders. But um while you're commenting on that, could you also answer the aspect of why the state doesn't or wouldn't have moral authority? Like surely it should. Why why doesn't it? Because of the corruption levels, the opulence, the manner in which they conduct themselves in public affairs. Citizens don't have confidence in them um in terms of them having authority over their lives. you pick up each and every day. Um there's corruption, scandals, Madlanga is exposing a lot of things. There's parliament exposing a lot of things. You can't then have this person or these people that are caught up in such um uh cases coming out the next day wanting to say South Africans behave, respect the rule of law, whereas they themselves are the last people who actually respect the rule of law. Um when it comes to the question of COA, the issue with COA is that you have you've clubbed churches, you've clubbed um real institutions and municipalities.

[00:09:21]Um and you find that the focus on COA majority of the times is on municipalities because of the crisis that we find in that suite of government. So legislatively again the issue of traditional leaders has not been really properly defined because the sections of the constitutions they'll speak about recognition of traditional leaders but in terms of their role they need to play um it's not well defined.

[00:09:52]They get paid. Traditional leaders, our kings and queens and chiefs get paid.

[00:09:57]But what role is there that is tangible to say this is your contribution to society. And to a certain degree, you find that they are ceremonial. Um they're ceremonial. If you go to municipalities, there will be municipality whereby the entire area is under a particular chief or a particular king. But what role do they have in terms of decision making in terms of how that municipality actually does things?

[00:10:24]So it's it's a it's it's something that societ our country needs to have a look at to say how then do we get the kings and the chiefs and the royal leaders that are receiving payments from government leading people having moral authority over these people to be given a more comprehensive role rather rather than them being ceremonial leaders.

[00:10:47]Okay. And then ATM's policy or position on immigration, what is it?

[00:10:53]>> Um, there must be lawful and legal u movement of people. I think that is what each and every party should have. Um, it must be lawful. It must be mil legal movement of people. People will move whether we like it or not. But it must be done in a manner that is lawful.

[00:11:12]Because once you do it in a manner that is lawful, you block out and reduce forms of exploitation. You also block out and reduce cases of criminality in the sense of human trafficking. And at the same time, you reduce any form of social tensions whereby you are going to have people coming and mass from different parts of the world settling in South Africa. But when they settle in South Africa, they then happen to um displace locals from the economy, whether it is entry- levelvel jobs or um entry- levelvel businesses like we see now. If you go to the inner city, you can just take a walk in the inner city.

[00:11:56]Basically, in all cities or or all towns in our country, it paints a partular demographic in terms of who's operating businesses there. go to restaurants, go to construction sites, go to um e-haling services like your checker 60, Uber Eats, etc. Um it's very clear. Um, so it creates tension but once you've got a lawful movement of people then it's well managed because the law I know there's this argument about Ubundu that South Africa um is a country that is that was founded on Ubuntu and it's something that people use mischievously because you don't run a country based on Ubuntu.

[00:12:38]You don't have a case whereby let's say someone commits a crime um as a minister or as a president then you say oh shame let's have ubundu you know you don't do that you stick to what the law says if there's a value of ubundu let it be defined in law and when there's some instance of um laws being broken it must be law that must actually deal with that for example once you have you have got the concept of asylum seekers or [snorts] refugees that is Ubuntu but it must be defined to say how then do you accept such people how then do you ensure that people who are fleeing persecution and war that is um Ubundu when you accommodate them but you can't then want to have a blanket um open-ended um definition of Ubundu which is not based in any form of law >> and even the asylum if I'm not mistaken in international law it's supposed to be in the nearest safest country >> safest country first safe country.

[00:13:38]That's a principle that that is used.

[00:13:40]You can't have someone leaving Japan saying they're persecuted in Japan. They don't settle in Asia. They um go to another continent which is South Africa and they claim that they are um seeking refuge um um refugee status in our country. Similarly, you've got cases of people leaving Pakistan um saying they seeking refuge in South Africa. the asylum seekers in South Africa and when you check but there's no war there and if there was um let's say there was war then surely they should be accommodated in India in Bangladesh and some of the countries um closer to them but they come to South Africa and I want to tell you they do not come because of the legitimate reasons of seeking asylum it is based on criminality and it is also based on them wanting um you know to find economic opportunities in South Africa. And then there's this term which is used which is found which is not found in law whereby they say people are economic refugees. There's nothing in law, there's nothing in terms of our policies that says someone is an economic refugee. the fact that there could be um unemployment poverty levels in country A, that should not be a reason for South Africa to say we're going to be accepting millions of people in South Africa because there's economic challenges in a particular country especially in a manner that is not sustainable because even in South Africa 55% of South Africans live below 3,000 rand a month that is an economic crisis on its own. You've got high levels of unemployment. 45% of people are unemployed. That is a um expanded definition of unemployment. You don't then find South Africans going to Namibia, going to Botswana, going to other countries saying they are economic refugees there. So I think the reason why there's these tensions is because South Africa is then expected to basically carry the burden of all countries. And I know there's this argument to say only African countries.

[00:15:53]It is a lie. It is not only African um immigrants that settle in South Africa.

[00:15:59]There's people coming from Asia, from Europe, from South America. They come and settle in South Africa. But because yes, South Africa is in Africa. So majority will be coming will be people coming from the continent but people who are trying to settle in South Africa they're coming from all over the world.

[00:16:16]So the reason why there's that tension is because there's no lawful management of this process. You'll recall I think it was Syria that had a war um some many years ago. What Europeans did then they had a proper mechanism to say country A must take up a certain number of people.

[00:16:37]country B must take up a certain number of people. That way you don't um have the entire refugees that are leaving Syria settling in one country because it was going to create tensions. But come to South Africa or Saddak region, you're going to have the crisis in Zimbabwe back then um in which Zimbabweans left um in their messes. But instead of SADC region to say look this is how um we need to accommodate them across different countries whether it's Mozambi um um um Zambia um Botswana in a manner that does not um places a strain on one country. So I think the reason why there's this big crisis is that there's a strain on on one country and this strain unfortunately is not felt by politicians. It is not felt by the people who are in the higher levels of our government. It is felt by communities and I think that is why there is the demonstration tomorrow.

[00:17:37]What would you say? How did we get here?

[00:17:40]What did we do wrong or Yeah. What did the state do wrong? And what would ATM do differently to fix or Yeah. What would ATM do to fix the situation we're in? Um the problem that the state did is that it did not adopt a position of being um clear that it is serving the interests of South Africans. I think they wanted to prove to the rest of the world even in the '90s that they'll be the opposite of the apatrate government was because apatate government was um you know very it was a cruel government.

[00:18:17]it was anti-human rights especially for black South Africans. So what the state did is that it wanted to position itself as a champion of human rights in the entire world. That is why you are going to have people saying we've got the best constitution in the world. Um the best acclaimed constitution and by the way that is not statements that are coming from South Africans. It is academia, it is NOS's, it is the globalist um organizations that are having that position. So that is where they got it wrong. So the how they also got it wrong practically is not listening to the cries of South Africans. Remember 2008 there is a conflict between locals and um foreign nationals. Um and many people died. I think over 60 people died. any logical government put aside the violence would then ask what is what is um really being said by South Africans in terms of migration and how it should be managed because the cry or the contestation for scar for resources especially scarce resources will always lead to violence if for example I can be practical here if there's a community um let's say it's 50 people they're all hungry there's no form of um them having anything to eat. I come with five loaves um five loaves of bread. Chances are if I were to throw that in the air, what's going to happen? If 50 people are going to fight because it's scarce resing over scarce resources. Come to South Africa, 45% of our population is unemployed.

[00:20:04]over 55% of our population is living below 3,000 rands and then they are then the capital um which is your checkers um your Uber Eats your restaurants your farms your construction companies then preferring to employ someone from next door from other countries not because they are hard workers not because they are smart not because they are diligent in their work simply because they can exploit them and And what does that do to a local? Then the local then starts developing an attitude or um a view towards the person that is taking the job or that is given given preference um in terms of job opportunities over him.

[00:20:49]But the real question it is not because a South African hates for example a Malawan there's no hatred it's just that they hate the fact that they are sidelined in their own country and then the Malawan becomes the face of them being sidelined and then you find that there's um that tension because if you were to check and if we can be very honest here there are Malawian for example and I'm making the example of Malawian because we know what happened in Sherwood in Deband recently whereby I think there was over 15,000 Malawian in one area but there will be Malawian settling in um Santin in Rosebank and all of these affluent um um places in our country. Do black South Africans actually um I could say fight them or despise them? The answer is no. Similarly, do they simply the reason why they do not despise them or hate them because that in in their when they operate there's no competition for scarce resources. They are able to coexist.

[00:21:58]Similarly, when there is um a fair opportunities for all people and South Africans do not feel as if they are excluded from job opportunities. It's no issue. Hence you find that people often remind us back in the '9s there were m migrants in South Africa and there was peaceful coexistence because this notion of [clears throat] capital actually preferring to employ migrants ahead of South Africans was not a a widespread phenomenon back then. They were migrants. They were employed but it was not to the detriment of South Africans.

[00:22:36]What becomes problematic now is that migrants are employed and South Africans are sidelined and instead of government actually dealing with the pro um issue by targeting the real culprits which is capital which is businesses what the government does is that it pains South Africans who are addressing this issue as if they are afrophobic or xenophobic.

[00:22:59]I would understand maybe political parties from their own political um views labeling people because that's what people do in politics. They try to appear smart. So when they lose the argument they'll just label you one thing or the other. But government should not be doing any form of labeling. government should be saying okay what you what you are raising it is correct and um yes you might not be diplomatic in terms of how you approach it um and I've never seen a person that is hungry that is frustrated that is diplomatic now government should be saying but we know as government the reason why there's this problem firstly we've got poorest borders people can come in and out home affairs recently was saying they can't deport port people back to other countries simply because they do not have passport to begin with.

[00:23:53]Question is how did they get to South Africa? It's not that they went through the border gates, they got stamped and then they overstate their visas. They just walked in one way or the other. The second issue is that companies, [clears throat] how does a government then um enforce the law? Because the law is very clear.

[00:24:13]If you're going to employ someone that is not a South African, you must prove beyond reasonable doubt that you looked internally in South Africa and you could not find South Africa a South African that can do that um job. It's not done.

[00:24:27]But the government does not deal with checkers 60 does not deal with construction companies does not deal with the farms and the restaurants and some of the government institutions by the way. So that is what government has done wrong and to get it right just enforce the law because what's nice about South Africans even this demonstration they're not saying enact a new law that will address one two three they are saying this is what the law says immigration act is very clear in terms of the movement of people and also immigration act is also very clear on if you want to start a business in South Africa what must happen it is also very clear in terms of the employment of people. So there's nothing new that South Africans are calling for. All they are calling for is the enforcement of what is currently in the law and it's not a law that perhaps was only enacted yesterday. It's laws that have been enacted since 2002 but the government has been failing to enforce.

[00:25:26]>> So at the core 100% one of the core problems is the lack of enforcement of the law. But another more deep issue is the element of scarce resources and the unavailability of jobs, economic growth etc. What would ATM do to ensure that there is both economic growth and job creation? The the basis of any society it is a society that is premised on law and order.

[00:25:57]If you can't ignore the laws simply because you are going to entice people on economic growth. I hear this argument um especially some union unionist that are saying yeah the biggest issue here is that there's no economic growth. That is the real um problem. Um someone that looks like you is not a problem. The problem is that there's no economic growth. It's superficial.

[00:26:25]It's a side of it. It's a different issue issue.

[00:26:30]>> Okay. Yeah. But they're two separate issues, but they're just coming together.

[00:26:34]>> Exactly. And you don't then say for a person that is undone because the laws are not being enforced. You say to that person, yeah, you actually have a wrong diagnosis of the problem. The real problem it is the fact that there's no economic growth. You don't do that. You enforce the law. because if South Africa has got a culture of enforcement of the law um firstly there's going to be law and order secondly when then there is growth um economic growth then you are able to create space for other people that are coming from other countries in within the confines of the law. You don't say um a lack of enforcement of the law problem will be enforced or will be solved by only the issue of economic growth. Yes, have economic growth but within a culture of law and order. So that is um so it's not a case whereby it is either or but it's a case whereby do this right which is law and order. So that when this economic growth happens, how you accommodate people that are coming from other countries again it must be within the confines of the law in the sense that if you then decide okay you want someone from outside of the country to do some work um you know that you're going to start looking in the saddak region then look at the continent then look at um other continents but if there's no law there's no policy it is easy. Someone can come from um another continent whereas there's someone from next door who has the skill who can actually be of um value. So for us I think the critical issue let us have the culture of law and order and everything and anything else must come or must be uh must be brought in our country with that established culture.

[00:28:35]Now the economic growth component focusing on that what is ATM's um economic ideology I think um if I can be practical in the in the sense that how then do we propose jobs should be created and the economy um is transformed to ensure that you bring in as many people as possible particularly black people black South Africans.

[00:29:02]Firstly, the economy of our country is um structured in a manner whereby there's very few hands that are actually owning the economy. Um hence you find that there's going to be reports that says over 90% of South Africa's wealth is owned by less than 10% of the population. So that structure on on its own is a recipe for disaster. So for us as a party for us to actually transform the economy you need the government or the state states intervention in terms of how the economy can be um can be structured in a manner that will bring in as many people and diverse players in the economy. The first thing it is the issue of using um government spending because if the government has got a budget of 2.8 8 trillion a year, 80% of it now currently goes to big white businesses. Therefore, inequality will always widen because it is the very few people that are actually benefiting from the economy. So, how you deal with that?

[00:30:10]You as government you need to have an executive order or a policy that is very clear to say 50% of government spending must go to SMMES because SMMES all over the world they are known to be the biggest creators of jobs that way whether it is a government department it's a municipality it's an S so SOE they need to have a target to say they need to spend 50% of whatever budget they have um in a year on SMMES and the benefit about SMM is is that it's diverse players. For example, big business, we'll make an example about Bitvest. Bitvest whether they get a tender in Bologuan municipality or they get a tender in Buffalo city municipality or in Escom or in a certain department, it's the very same people that are benefiting. But once you talk SMMES, the SMMES that will be doing the work, getting contracts in Buffalo city will be different from the ones that are getting contracts in um Oluka municipalities and municipality. So you create diverse players in the economy in that regard. So first issue government spending. The second issue it is the localization. Um we know this for a fact and I speak from experience. where I grew up in Soonu from my house um I could walk about 500 meters there was a factory that factory was producing clothes that were sold in the pep in town so when our parents bought us clothes from that pep in town the pep was actually sourcing those clothes from a factory that was also from the township and that factory the people that were working there it was our brothers our um and etc. So that economic system made sure that the economy of our country is not really located in the big cities like Joberg, Cape Towns and the Obans but even a small town such as Bawat would have some form of economic activity that is production driven not a not an economic activity that is consumptiondriven.

[00:32:23]The second issue on this in this regard is that then South Africa is now um post 1994 or let's say 2000 most factories that we had because we used to have factories not only my hometown which is but a Hamman scrum there were factories and they were producing um um one thing or the other and the ultimate outcome of that is that there were jobs in those particular localities. But after those factories were closed um then people all of them they came to one province which is Koeng in a search for a better life. That is why even you'll hear the premers of Koeng talking about how from um a population perspective Koeng is unable to cater for the amount of people that are here precisely because there's no economic activity that is happening in the other um um other areas of our country. So to then create jobs we need to take a position as a country to say we are going to locally produce um most of the basic goods or a list of basic goods whereby it must be in law that is um very clear to say you don't import for example toothpicks something easy straightforward which could be done even by um in a TV college you know our learners could be trained to do it but currently um you go to a shop you Just take a brand of a toothpick, just check the label, you'll see made in China.

[00:33:59]What is the outcome of that? Because whether it's our clothes, um it is um the the the um what we the utensils that we use in our homes. If any product is manufactured outside of the country, the reality is that we are creating jobs in that particular locality. If the t-shirt you are wearing um is labeled made in Bangladesh or made in Thailand, rest assured the jobs um um that has been created from the production of what you are wearing is there in Thailand or in Bangladesh. So if we have products that are manufactured locally, that's how you create jobs. Um and then the last thing is when it comes to PIC, PIC is managing assets um which is from the pensions of the people that are working for the government. However, over 95% of those assets are actually invested um in listed companies.

[00:35:05]um and companies that are unlisted which are predominantly blackowned get less than um a share of 200 billion in the entire um trillion um I think more than 4.5 trillion um assets that have been managed by the PIC and the other issue linked to that is that EPIC invest in most most um consu consumptiondriven initiatives in the sense that EPIC should investing in building factories, building producting productive industries because that is how you um sustainably grow the economy. But PIC you'll hear that okay they invested in the uh in a company that is um for example building a mall somewhere after the mall is built the products that will be sold in that mall who cares or who's asking questions as to um where do they come from they imported what is the outcome in terms of our economy jobs are lost so in a nutshell that is what we propose as a means of creating jobs um in a manner that is um lessening the inequality and bringing black players into the economy and at the same time making sure that the economy is not concentrated in the big cities but it is cut across the different um areas and um municipalities in our country.

[00:36:42]Another thing you guys have been big on is Pala Pala. Can you give us a brief summary as to the role ATM has played in where we are with Pala Pala and what the objective ultimately is? The objective is very simple. Create a culture of accountability whereby heads of state, ministers and everyone know that once you occupy public office, how you exercise your public power that has been delegated to you by the public, you exercise that public power in a form in a manner that is answerable to the public and it is basically in the interest of South Africans. And I want to um you know your viewers to understand this issue. If an entire president is held accountable, what would make a mayor of a certain small municipality think that they can get away with violating the law one way or the other because they see that okay someone as powerful as a president can be held accountable. But once you don't hold a president accountable then it creates a culture of impunity because president is going to violate laws based on um you know his exposure and his um power access to power. Ministers will also do it in their own regard in their own way. Go to premers, go to MEC's, go to mayors, go to MMC's, go to counelors.

[00:38:11]There's going to be an entire culture of people not respecting the law because they see it from the first citizen of the country that you can violate laws and get away with it. But once a president is held accountable, it sends a very strong message especially in this regard because the president of the country is the most powerful person that you we all know because whatever bills that are enacted by parliament for them to be actually law they need to be signed by the president. He appoints um judges to sit um in the constitutional court um which is the entire judiciary um um rest upon him based on his appointments. He appoints as well very critical um functionaries such as your national police commissioner. He appoints ministers that preside over our affairs um in one way or the other. Now we need to satisfy ourselves as South Africans that a person that holds so much power is not under any form of either criminal, corrupt or foreign influence. And I can tell you now if you were to come to go to anyone's house, you see large volumes of cash, you would think there's some form of um legal illegal activity because even if a person, for example, is a taxi driver and this person is a taxi owner. So the taxi drivers come and deposit cash at the end of the day to him. He knows that he needs to go and deposit the next day because firstly it's risky and at the same time having large volumes of cash.

[00:39:56]Put aside what the law says cuz the law is very clear. You can't have more than 50,000 in cash and you've got foreign currency. You need to deposit within 30 days.

[00:40:05]>> It's like 10,000 I think.

[00:40:06]>> Yeah. Put aside that. But the the the the risk of having cash um it's very clear that cash on its own gives an impression of some form of illegal activity especially large volumes of cash. Now if you have now an entire president having large volumes of not just only cash but foreign currency that has not been declared firstly when they came in the country when they are stolen the normal processes of reporting a case are not followed um because people are tortured there's a rogue operation and for 2 years um the country does not know what's happening it takes a whistleblower at Fraser to go to the public and say this actually transpired.

[00:40:57]We should be having more questions as South Africans because it's not because there's hatred of um you know not the president but it's a case that chap you are having so much power over us. Let us be certain that when you exercise this power over us, you yourself are not under any form of foreign influence of corrupt players that influence you to take decisions not in the best interest of the country. We must want as South Africans that a president must always advance the interests of our citizens and our country. And if it may happen that a person who is a president is somehow involved in corrupt dealings or in under the influence of criminal networks or foreign influence, we must be scared because what if he appoints a national police commissioner not for the interest of fighting crime but for the interest of safeguarding or protecting some of the corrupt criminal cartels that we find in our country. What if he appoints for example a minister of international relations not because he wants to advance our position as a country in terms of the world in terms of international relations but rather he's trying to appease one or two countries maybe that might have given him that money. So we can never be certain up until we get the answers on Panapal >> and then so you guys there was a process in parliament that happened and you guys weren't happy with that and you guys took it to court.

[00:42:34]What was that process and why weren't you guys happy? So December 2022 um the the National Assembly was voting whether to adopt a report from the independent panel that would have left led to the establishment of the impeachment committee. Um however the ANC decided to vote against that report and that the majority of um in the time and when they took that decision basically they violated section 423 of the constitution which mandates parliament to actually scrutinize and oversee executive action because you can't have a report um independent panel report by the way. So it's not done let's say by any member of parliament >> or by any party >> by any party to an extent someone can say but you were biased or there was a political outcome for that report it's done independently and also when it comes to section 89 it is a legal process because section 89 contains provisions as to how do you remove a president on the basis of him violating the law violating the constitution ution or serious misconduct as opposed to section 102 whereby it's a motion of no confidence whereby the discussion is to how do you remove a president based on let's say poor performance. So this one section 89 is more legal. Now, I've been hearing people from the ANC um wanting, you know, to say, but they've got the majority. Um and even some of the justices, they were talking about, no, you need to have majority.

[00:44:16]So, as a majority, they were well within their rights to take a decision anywhere they anyhow they want, which is not consistent with our constitution. Our we live in a constitutional democracy.

[00:44:28]Whatever happens in South Africa, whether done by the president or the executive, whether done by parliament or whether even done by the constitutional court or done by the judiciary, must be consistent with the constitution. Let me make this example. The constitution is very clear. A president can only serve two terms. Let's say for some um reason come 2029, we know it's not going to happen. So, we're just speaking here.

[00:44:56]ANC gets 50% or 51%.

[00:45:00]ANC decides to nominate Mr. Ramaposa to be the president of the country. He's already served two terms. The constitution bars Mr. Ramaposa from serving another um term. Similarly, similar thing happened with president. um he wanted another term to be the president of the ANC not the president of the country because he knew the constitution whatever they may have the majority as the ANC in parliament but they can't use that majority in a manner that violates the constitution similarly in this regard they then used the the majority they had back then but in a manner that is not consistent with the constitution so that is why we went to court and the courts ruled that the decision that was taken back then was um incorrect, invalid, unlawful and it was set aside.

[00:45:53]Hence, now we've got this impeachment committee and the role of the impeachment committee. Um people um must understand an impeachment inquiry is a um is it is a truth seeking or factf finding inquiry. And when you are set out to find facts, a decision is taken later on the whether a person is guilty or innocent. Now you can't then want to block an inquiry because how will you determine whether someone is is is innocent or someone is guilty. So but what the NC is fighting and the president again is fighting. They do not want any form of inquiry. What does that tell you? They hiding something. He's been saying all this time that he's innocent. He's not violated any form of law. I've never seen someone [clears throat] who's innocent that is refusing um to subject himself to a process whereby he can clear his name with facts and evidence to say you are accusing me of 1, two, three. Here's the evidence. I did not do that. Instead, you've got someone that is fighting tooth and nail from um wanting um from being against a process whereby with evidence, with facts, he can clear his name.

[00:47:13]There are two components I'd like to get clarity on.

[00:47:17]The first one, the votes that took place, the initial one was essentially a vote with an option that was not legitimate and that's the thing. Surely there's a flaw there because then there shouldn't have been a vote altogether.

[00:47:34]>> Yeah.

[00:47:35]>> How did that vote come about then? So 2017, if I can take you back, the constitutional court rules that parliament must give rules that will guide how section 89 um the section 89 or impeachment process is going to um is not is going to play out in parliament.

[00:47:55]Um and then section 89 those rules they say um there must be a motion and the mo speaker must satisfy that this motion is consistent with the rules and must refer this motion to an impeach independent panel. The independent panel then must look at the evidence have a report and then this report must be tabled by the speaker to the national assembly for a vote. Now that vote that was going to be done according that was done in 2022 based on the rules that were there back then was to say in order to have an impeachment inquiry parliament or the national assembly must first vote to have such an inquiry. Whereas the constitutional court found that it is illogical that you have a report that is saying there's a case to answer. Surely there's a case to answer. The logical step is to establish an inquiry that will actually scrutinize without a vote.

[00:48:57]>> Without a vote, the vote must only come at the end whether to impeach or not to impeach. You cut out this political um process of establishing an inquiry because that is what the rules um I think it's rule 129.

[00:49:16]um I if I'm not mistaken um IOG said h must happen now the constitutional court said nope once a report independent panel report says there's a case to answer the next step they must next step they must follow have an inquiry to test um whether indeed there's a has this case um that is said there's a case to answer whether it is sufficient enough that would warrant um an impeachment and This is very critical in [snorts] the sense that let's say for example president let's use him as an example because he can still be impeached by the way even though he's been out of office for more than 10 years. If President Mi let's say he is um driving a car on his own.

[00:50:07]He jumps a street light um gets stopped by the traffic officers and then he's given a ticket. Has he committed a crime? Yes, because broken the law hence is given a ticket a fine in which he's got to pay. But is that um um law that is broken is it to the extent that he could be impeached for it? In my view, no. Not to say he's not violated the law, but it is not serious misconduct as according to section 89 of the constitution. But if this very same president, not only does he jump a a robot, but he ends up crashing to another car, kills that other person. Um, and when police arrive on the scene, he's um um intoxicated.

[00:50:57]In my view, that would then warrant um him to be actually impeached because it is serious misconduct. So what this process there now does the impeachment committee is to test that yes there might be laws violated by Mr. But the veracity of these laws that have been violated, do they warrant impeachment, are they serious enough?

[00:51:21]The independent panel found that there is prima evidence of serious violations to the constitution and misconduct. So that is the basis in which now we are embarking on this process. And then the second component which one is in conflict about because surely at one side the president does have his rights. Um you know same as if someone wanted to come to my house and search it's like okay bring a warrant. Um it's not necessarily a guilt thing but it's saying okay there should be process but on the other side there should be transparency. So how does one find the balance and afford the president his rights as a citizen cuz he's a citizen but at the other end have the element of accountability because he's also not just any citizen he's the first citizen.

[00:52:12]Exactly. You you must hold the president with a higher standard than you and me again based on what I said earlier based on the amount of power that he has over us. that does not mean that his rights um he loses his rights. He's got a right like each and every person. But we need to then look at how does he exercise those rights. Is he exercising those rights in a manner that is leading to accountability and transparency or in a manner that seems to be avoiding accountability? Let's go back to 2022.

[00:52:49]2022 the independent panel report was released I think on the 26th of November um and the vote was going I think it was held on the 5th of December. Few days before the vote happens he goes to the constitutional court saying he wants to review that report. What then happens is that if you to listen to the ANC speakers in that debate, they were saying the only reason in which they are not going to vote for the adoption of the report, it is because it is legally flawed. Um it has got errors in law and it is it is taken on judicial review.

[00:53:28]Now the constitutional court the next year I think it was March 2023 constitutional court says look you should have gone um to a lower court um don't go directly you've not made your case to be given um direct access to the constitutional court on this issue now after that happens in 2023 March 2023 the president does nothing now the question would be from his moral standing he did not find any issue from March 2023 up until now that there's a report that is saying he's got a serious case to answer. Um he did not find any issues whether um that report what does it say to his moral standing. Um he was fine with it. He did he went around doing many things but only now that this report when processed in terms of the constitutional court is leading now to a process of accountability. He then elects to go to court. Now clearly he's not going to court to clear his name or to seek to overturn that report. He's going to court now precisely because he wants to stop parliament from embarking on a process of holding him accountable.

[00:54:44]So that is the distinction here and it is based on what he has done.

[00:54:50]Yeah. Okay. So this one I guess we're going to um wait and see how it turns out. What is your expectation from the parliamentary impeachment committee? Do you think that it's going to be objective especially with 31 members? Um do you think it is going to come to the bottom of what happened?

[00:55:07]>> Yeah, firstly you opposition parties are always um viewed as if they are they are they only witch hunt when they are pushing for accountability and I think for me the reason why that is so is because we are going up against the state powerful players in the state.

[00:55:30]So for example when I if I were to speak about pala pala once nothing would have moved but the fact that we lodged a complaint with the public protector IP parliament process we even had to go to court to the highest court in the land constitutional court clearly shows that it's not easy to actually go up up against an entire sitting president because they've got the power of the state in their hands and they're going to use state institutions to actually protect them. So that is why you're going to have voices of people saying opposition parties like ATM are not objective. They're on a witch hunt.

[00:56:10]Um they already viewed the president as guilty simply because you have to go the extra mile. You have to fight for accountability. If we had not done so would not have had this process.

[00:56:22]However, our approach as the ATM, we just want the truth. And I did say even to him, I think it was a debate in parliament. If we go to that process and with evidence he gets to be cleared, I'll be the first person to go and shake his hand and say, "Thank you. Um, we have now put this issue behind us. We can move on." But I can't do that now because I would be failing my responsibility as a member of parliament because we are duty bound to hold the executive accountable. We've got a legal and moral and political obligation to do that. However, if we to look at the posture of the ANC, the posture is very clear. It is to defend the president because they had a meeting um NC meeting I think Balula went out and spoke to South Africans and said they are the the line of march they've been given it is to defend the president. Similarly 2022 classic case there's a report that is saying there's a case to answer. What position did the ANC take there? They took a position to say they are not going to establish a committee to estab um to to um to verify the facts. Instead they said no parliament do not do anything. And by the way it was not the first time the uses their majority in parliament to squash any form of accountability. And perhaps maybe it's not even the last time because the ANC maybe prefers to protect their own instead of advancing the ideals of the constitution. So what you should expect in that committee like we've seen in the one or two meetings we've had with one or two parties in the GNU they see no wrong and um in fact according to them we should not even be having an inquiry even though the constitutional court said we must have an inquiry but other parties such as ATM are going to be truth seeking that's why even last week there was a meeting there to discuss the terms of reference as the ATM, we said we can't have terms of reference that are saying the president um if he chooses to come testify before the committee um you know it's okay and I was like no no no no he must not have the power to decide whether he comes or not he's the subject of the entire inquiry he must be compelled to come and testify um so that is what we're contributing the people. I can tell you now when we read their submissions in terms of the terms of reference, there's a certain section there whereby they saying they do not want people that used to work for the intelligence to go and testify. Do you know why they want to stop Arthur Fraser from coming to testify? which does not make any form of sense because the whistleblower that actually brought to South Africans this particular issue, it was other Fraser.

[00:59:35]How can you then have an inquiry without listening to him, the person who brought it to the public and whether he got evidence in a manner that is legal or illegal, let him answer as other phrases in that inquiry. Um um but you can't then have a an inquiry whereby the whistleblower that brought the information to the public. You want to have um you know you want to have means and ways of blocking him from actually testifying.

[01:00:05]>> Okay. Yeah. So I mean yeah we could go on forever. However just now in in closing atm we're going to uh elections the 4th of November.

[01:00:16]What is firstly what is a candidate in terms of counselor and mayoral um process? How are you guys going about that? But secondly, why should people vote for ATM in the local government election?

[01:00:29]>> Um the process is that ATM structures consult communities and then communities then decide who is best suited to stand as a counselor in a certain ward or a mal candidate in a certain municipality.

[01:00:44]All our processes are informed by communities and established groups like your civil society in a particular area, religious blog, um traditional leaders, um youth formations, women formations.

[01:00:59]So that is how we take decisions because we're not contesting for ourselves.

[01:01:04]We're contesting on behalf of the citizens. That is why we have a process that is informed by the aspirations of the people.

[01:01:13]The reason why people must vote for the ATM, it is because from 2021 we've been having we have had counselors um in um municipalities all over the country and those counselors have diligently done their work. they have contributed in terms of even um the the basic things whereby in cases whereby um I remember one of our counselors in municipality um in Bzana there was issues of some area had um lack of water supply he's the one that actually pushed in council that there must be water supply um that is brought to that particular area and not um in a manner that is temporary um but in a manner that is sustainable um by having proper water infrastructure. Um even here in Johannesburg, our councelor MMC Muenju when he was the MMC of um community development, especially in places such as Drez and Lehi, he was very instrumental in ensuring that a project that was abandoned for over 10 years, which is a community library, he made sure that within a year of him being in office, that was actually done.

[01:02:35]So we've proven ourselves in terms of lo local government but if a person can look at the entire DNA of the ATM at a national level you know what ATM has contributed at a national level because many parties when they get to councils or when they get to parliament they just want to follow what the big established well-known guys are saying. Very few actually go there stand for the people regardless whether they are one or two.

[01:03:03]So with ATM we've got that bold approach to politics whereby we say even if we're the we are only two people in parliament. We're going to speak the truth whether they like it or not we don't care. We're going to stand for South Africans. That is what we've done in national assembly and that is what our counelors have been doing and that is the benefit in which South Africans are going to have post November 2026 because after parliament wins municipalities you then will have the benefit of municipalities or leaders in those municipalities that are not afraid of actually changing things. Look for example let's talk about Jawbe talk about the issue of um hijacked buildings. How long have we been speaking or uh people speaking in Jobeek about the issue of abandoned buildings?

[01:03:52]It's been years. Why is it not happening? Why is it not being resolved?

[01:03:56]I think it's because they are fearful of either the networks, criminal networks that have abandoned that have hijacked these buildings. So what you need, you need bold and courageous leaders that are just going to do what is right by the people. Not people are just going to politic and just want to have an issue remain a campaign issue so that they always keep getting votes on this issue but they do not actually solve the problem. That is what other politicians do. They even with unemployment by the way or poverty um because there's no way in which our municipalities cannot embark on programs to actually create jobs solve some of our problems.

[01:04:37]Hijack buildings again. We've got a crisis of people stay very far from places of economic activity because they stay let's say in so if they're going to take a train coming to town uh maybe they need to be up at 5:00 for them to make it to work at 8:00 why not expropriate all of these abandoned hijacked buildings convert them into worldass um living um spaces for the people so that a person stays close to where they work and at the same time you've got students every year we find that there are students who who are struggling with accommodation beginning of the year there are many buildings why not take those buildings accom um um convert them into student accommodation that way you solve problems so what people should know when you vote ATM your problems will be solved we're not going to be politicking and having issues remain because want to use them in the next election cycle as an election campaign um strategy. We are going to just solve problems.

[01:05:45]>> And who funds the ATM?

[01:05:46]>> ATM is funded by its members. And if you can tell, you know, parties that have got proper money, serious money, you know, they've got billboards, they've got all over the place. But ATM you're going to see that even how we do things you can tell that these people do not have um serious funding outside our membership fees donations from our members and money that we get from the IEC there's no other source of income that we have as a party that is why by the way we are able to be vocal on issues consistent on issues and there's no issue that we run away from if we're going to be talking for example about drugs um criminality. We're not afraid to talk about that because we're not funded by drug dealers. We're not funded by wealthy um capital organizations. That is why we're able to talk about the economy must be transformed. Like I said earlier, few hands in our South African economy actually control the economy. parties that are funded by such um individuals that benefit from the economic structure of the economy. They'll speak about everything and anything else but they will never touch the issue of economic transformation precisely because they do not want to ac um upset their funders.

[01:07:04]So if a person can just observe ATM there's no issue and not only by the way in speech because many people they speak yes in rallies they'll talk about 1 2 3 but where it matters the most in parliament we don't see action as the ATM you'll recall that on the issue of rent manipulation we said there must be inquiry we said we must we must must have a debate which other party spoke about that I can't rec on the issue of illicit financial flows let us deal with it. Currently, we're pushing that land in South Africa must only be owned by South Africans because again, we've not corrected land injustice pre194.

[01:07:45]And therefore, you can't then allow a space whereby instead of rectifying um the current um land ownership patterns, you then allow a space of foreign nationals go um going to coming to South Africa um buy land legally. So, but in a manner then that skews the land ownership patterns and makes it worse than before because that is what is currently happening. Many parties don't want to touch on that. Um similarly on this um um on many other issues ATM has been consistent right there in parliament. So if people need to or want to check whether parties are genuine or not, don't really listen to what they say in in [clears throat] rallies. It's very nice to speak in a rally, but your actions must be seen in parliament because decisions are taken in parliament.

[01:08:40]Thank you for making time and do hope that all goes well both in terms of the election and also in parliament with the um Palapala impeachment committee.

[01:08:50]>> Thank you so much. Um thank you for so much for having us and also um want to encourage all every person that will be watching this um um episode to actually like, share and subscribe because we need um many voices especially talking about our issues, political issues because you know as young people sometimes we have we like discussing issues or entertainment or social issues and sometimes s cry at the fact that our country is not really going where we want to go. So your platform actually goes a long way in terms of reaching out to young people so that yes let us have fun as young people but at the same time let us concern ourselves with the affairs of our country and it's a perfect platform to do that. Thank you guys you heard it. Like subscribe share but also please get out register to vote. You can still do it online the registration weekends and [music] make your mark forward. But like I said, like, subscribe, share with politics.

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