Starmerites Fear Burnham Risks Throwing Away Labour’s Economic Reputation | Steven Swinford

[00:00:00]Darren Jones, notably, but other kind of Starmer allies who are worried, really worried, that Andy Burnham risks throwing away uh the kind of hard-won reputation. And when I say hard-won, it destroyed their popularity, their hard-won reputation for fiscal stability with the markets.

[00:00:16]Um and that's the concern. That's what Darren Jones was trying to do yesterday.

[00:00:19]He was trying to signal it mark their card and say, "This is non-funded pledge. You can't go making unfunded pledges."

[00:00:26]>> It's time to talk to Stephen Swinford.

[00:00:27]He is the Times political editor. Good morning, Steve.

[00:00:30]>> Good morning, Kate.

[00:00:31]>> So, day two, another big policy announcement. Uh they were much better prepared, I think. Heidi Alexander certainly had a bit more detail on the financing of of the bus fares announcement today. So, we've got a bit of a direction of travel, but it's still not going to make a huge amount of difference to people's everyday lives, is it?

[00:00:49]>> That's the challenge. So, this is restoring a Tory policy, the £2 uh cap on bus fares, and that will make a bit of a difference, but it's not you know, I think the government itself would acknowledge this is more about a direction of travel, trying to show people on the side. But there there's a bigger problem. There's no money left, right? So, there is only a limited number of things that you can do, and there are some very, very big commitments on the horizon on both defense spending and also Andy Burnham's plans for a national care service. I think one of the stories of the last few days is Andy Burnham tends to say some quite broad things on income tax thresholds, on national care service, uh indeed on defense spending. But they've all got huge price tags attached, and I think what he's having to adjust to, and will adjust to, increasingly is that everything he says is news. Every word is measured by us and rightly scrutinized, and you can't really afford to be loose anymore because no sooner than you've done that. So, let's take the personal income tax threshold. He he mooted in an interview with The Times on Sunday increasing the threshold the tax-free threshold of income tax from £12,570.

[00:01:56]Well, he Well, actually, what he said is he's picked up concerns on the ground, in fairness to him, and it was the biggest thing. And then he told us the following day he was he was thinking about looking at it in the budget. And people pointed out, "Well, that's like a 9 billion commitment if you end up doing that. That's a huge amount of money."

[00:02:10]And of course they're now rowing back from that and saying it wasn't a commitment, it's just obviously he's concerned about low earners. And they do want to do something in that space, it's just not income tax. But either way, you then get accused of U-turns. So, that's something he's going to have to get used to, that he is the most important person in the country now, and everything he says matters.

[00:02:29]>> Where's the party on this, Steve?

[00:02:30]Because this time yesterday we were talking about the fact that a very senior minister in Keir Starmer's government had come out and publicly rubbished the funding strategy for the first big Burnham cost of living policy, the VAT off electricity bills.

[00:02:46]And it wasn't particularly helpful, I don't think, for them. It's why they've then had to be a bit better prepared today, although there are still some questions about the way that this policy on buses is is funded, I think that's fair to say.

[00:02:57]Is the party united behind Andy Burnham?

[00:03:00]Because that's important, isn't it?

[00:03:02]>> I think obviously parts of the party united behind him, but there are others, Darren Jones notably, but other kind of Starmer allies who are worried, really worried, that Andy Burnham risks throwing away the kind of hard-won reputation. And when I say hard-won, it destroyed their popularity, their hard-won reputation for fiscal stability with the markets.

[00:03:22]And that's the concern. That's what Darren Jones was trying to do yesterday.

[00:03:26]He was trying to signal Mark their card and say, "This is unfunded pledge. You can't go making unfunded pledges." And on the buses, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but we were expecting a press release last night that was supposed to be embargoed, and it just got delayed and delayed and delayed.

[00:03:41]Where is this press release?

[00:03:41]>> me both, Steve.

[00:03:43]We're getting worried at 4:00 a.m.

[00:03:45]>> The [laughter] suggestion that I had was that the reason it was delayed was because they still hadn't quite sorted out the funding mechanism. They have one now, but that was what caused the delay in it. And we will look at this quite unusual funding mechanism today in more detail to see how that adds up. But that's the problem. You you can't just announce things without very clearly stating how they're paid for. If Andy Burnham's Achilles' heel was the economy, it is so important that everything he announces is fully funded.

[00:04:12]And for what it's worth, for example, on the energy bills, we got a sniff of it the night before. He's cutting energy bills. And they they assured us it was fully funded. And then lo and behold, when we actually looked at it, it wasn't. Not not any definition that would would meet the market test. So, that's the balance he's got to strike.

[00:04:27]And you can see the direction of travel.

[00:04:29]He wants to be a cost of living government. In 3 days, well, you've had two big cost of living measures, uh bus fares, energy, and you've also had help for people on rough sleeping. So, that's the direction of the government. But the worry for a lot of Labour MPs, uh none none of whom are in government, but a lot of Labour MPs under the surface is you need to show how this is paid for.

[00:04:48]You can't be loose with the finances.

[00:04:50]>> And interestingly enough, even if you could say this this new announcement today was funded, the £2 bus cap in England, I think there are still some questions about the the direction of travel here cuz a lot of the money is coming from the Department for net zero energy security and net zero and overseas funding. And there may be some people who say, "Well, am I comfortable with that?" There'll be others who say it's much better to spend the money here and not not abroad. But I think that's a debate they will end up having to have, too. Um just finally, Steve, we've talked a lot in the last couple of weeks about Nigel Farage's party, Reform UK, and the difficulty he's faced when it comes to donations he's received. Posh George has turned up.

[00:05:31]>> Yes, so he has been seen at Reform's HQ.

[00:05:34]Um and he is obviously a convicted fraudster who had been secretly bankrolling Nigel Farage for some time.

[00:05:41]Um now, Nigel Farage has been totally on on on this. He's, you know, not it being unapologetic on it. He says that there's nothing wrong with this and nothing to see here. So, arguably, he that is consistent, but there is a kind of element of mystery about this guy and what his relationship with Reform particularly is, whether he was formerly doing anything for them. The insistence is that he gave this money to Farage as a friend, basically, um but it is unclear. Um so, he has turned up at Reform HQ, been seen there, and it's the first time we've seen him, I think, since this this whole issue erupted. Um so, yeah, it's it's definitely one to watch.

[00:06:18]>> Yeah, we'll see what happens with that story today. Steve, thank you, as ever.

[00:06:23]>> Yes.

[00:06:24]>> That is Steven Swinford, the political editor at The Times.

[00:06:27]>> I kind of made this point about buses is that we should say is that if they live in rural areas, the pri- the price of the bus isn't the problem. It's the fact that buses often get cancelled, bus routes get cancelled, and they're very hard to get to, and therefore, they're not a convenient service anymore.

[00:06:40]>> Or there's one one bus that goes at sort of an inconvenient time and doesn't come back until the next day. So, you'd be a bit stuck.

[00:06:46]>> So, get going from three quid to two pound actually doesn't make that much of a difference to your life, but having an extra bus service would make a difference to your life, yeah.

[00:06:53]>> Yes. But, I suppose if the number of people using it is so small, it doesn't make it worth it. You're subsidizing. We I think the government is now subsidizing buses to the tune of around a billion pounds. So, the argument at some point will become how much do we think it's worth subsidizing?

[00:07:06]>> don't they?

[00:07:07]>> They do a lot with trains, yeah.

[00:07:09]>> Um we've got to Yeah, it's a tricky one, that, isn't it? No.

[00:08:07]>> Mhm.