Ilia Topuria Suspended Following Broken Orbital at UFC Freedom 250

[00:00:00]All right, guys. Well, we just wrapped up UFC 250 White House anniversary card.

[00:00:05]A fantastic card. And look, I'm joined again by Joe Bon. And look, I obviously want to touch on that a little bit.

[00:00:10]We've to we've exhausted this topic for the last like couple months, but let's just be honest. Put a bow on it today.

[00:00:16]Let's go ahead and wrap this up. Let's talk about the couple things that I actually uh have been kind of going over in my mind over the last couple days.

[00:00:23]But any man, thanks again for joining the show. That's one. and two is I'm looking forward to your insight obviously on this weekend's UFC fight night card at the apex obviously with the uh flyweights man versus Kyoji Horiguchi who I know very well Kyoji Horiguchi because he was the Bellator champion the rising champion I've covered several of his fights called some of his fights that's a very very great fight I'll get your feet on that but hey man thanks for joining the show again >> good to be here bro I I I got a question for you did you have the same thing that I had and seemed like other people at the gym had on Monday morning which was the UFC freedom 250 50 hangover. It was it was such not only did the card go late being on a Sunday, but it was like you woke up you Sunday morning kind of like Christmas morning. It was like, "Oh my god, the big show is finally today.

[00:01:08]All this events are in store. It's going to be a late night." I slept all day on Monday. You know, if you don't have to go to work in the morning like I didn't have to. But it was like a hangover. It took a while to recover from that. And I didn't even work the show. I just watched it on my couch.

[00:01:22]>> Yeah. You know what it it reminded me of? uh Super Bowl Sunday.

[00:01:25]>> Yeah.

[00:01:26]>> Like you watched the game from 3 to like 9:00. Obviously a lot of people were drinking and barbecuing and they're hanging out till probably, you know, 11:00 at night watching the Super Bowl.

[00:01:33]The next day I woke up and I was like, "Yeah, I felt a little tired, but I also filmed till 3:00 in the morning with Big John McCarthy to help cover it, give the recap on it, talk about immediate thoughts." Wow.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah. I So what I normally do is I do a full like, you know, breakdown, instant reaction right after the cards. almost every M actually for sure every numbered event, but pretty much for almost every uh fight card. So, I'll do it again this Saturday night um for this weekend's UFC Apex card.

[00:02:00]>> Well, good. I'll be interested to hear because I didn't hear what you and John went over, especially regarding the rule set in the co-main event, but I have a take on it. I'm curious if it aligns >> with what you guys thought as well, and we get to that in a bit in the show. I wanted to touch your uh I wanted to touch base with you on this. I sitting on the stool in round three. Decides to go out there and fight in round three, get into round four. Has a good round.

[00:02:25]Not a great round, but has a good round in round four. Sits back down. Took some big shots towards the end of that round.

[00:02:31]Takes some big shots. And then he goes back to the corner. His eyes are obviously swollen. Can't really see. Two broken orbitals, I think, is what the doctors have released now. That's nasty.

[00:02:40]could be it could be out for a year, maybe even longer depending on will he be the same fighter coming back. That's not what I want to talk about. I want to talk about what goes through a fighter's mindset as they're sitting on the stool.

[00:02:52]He's got his brother there, his older brother, looking at his little brother going, "You're broken. You're damaged.

[00:02:57]We've never been in this situation before. Your O is on the line. Your title's on the line. Your invincibility is also in jeopardy as well." Every fighter has thought that I pouy was invincible. The way he walked through Vulcganowski, the way he what he did to Max Holloway, what he did to Charles Olivera. I mean, we were all buzzing about this guy. This guy's going to walk right through Justin Gai. That wasn't my take, but it was my take was that look, he's got the power to walk through anybody. And we were even talking about him going to 170, fighting Islam hot chef there at 170. We have now >> he didn't, man. I'm glad he did not back.

[00:03:33]>> We now have rolled that back. But we put that I think that sleepy dog to rest.

[00:03:38]But what do you think was going through his brother's mind? What do you think was going through his mind and his coaches in his corner's mind? Like as he's thinking, do I continue fighting?

[00:03:49]Do I lose my title? Do do I put my my my safety of, you know, being able to ever see again any of these things first?

[00:03:57]Like fighters debate that in while they're sitting on the stool, we think about all those things and we have to make that decision in that 60 seconds between rounds. What do you think went through his mind?

[00:04:09]>> Well, I think first and foremost, body language tells a story, right? And we know how body language looks with fighters and the body language that he displayed on his stool, I think it told the story that he was done. I think it was the right decision, especially if I'm his brother and I'm sitting in there and I know what my brother's capable of.

[00:04:26]I know what he's been through and I know the amount of damage that he's received.

[00:04:29]Saturday mornings used to mean coffee and sidelines. Now it's game time for all of us. We're running drills, chasing goals, and yeah, trying to keep up with each other. Soccer, lacrosse, doesn't matter. What matters is we're doing it together. But here's the thing I didn't expect. Training with your kids, it hits different. You sweat more, you push harder. If you're not careful, you could burn yourself out.

[00:04:55]That's why I started bringing Element.

[00:04:57]No sugar, no junk, just electrolytes.

[00:05:01]Sodium, potassium, magnesium, so you can stay sharp, stay moving, and stay in the game. Cuz when your kids look over and say, "Come on, Dad. Keep up." You don't want to sit this one out. You want to be right there with them. Hydration isn't just about performance. It's about showing up for them, for yourself, for moments like this.

[00:05:24]element.

[00:05:28]>> Say salty.

[00:05:30]>> We all were speculating, but we were accurate that it was a broken orbital turned out to be two broken orbitals.

[00:05:35]You don't get that quick of swelling in that amount of time in a fight unless something some real serious damage. So, you never really know first, okay, is it a broken orbital that could have been going through his brother's mind? Is it something more severe, detached retina or something like that? He said early on in the fight between I think round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round round rounds one and two I can't see out of one eye then he got beat on some more the other eye started swelling if I'm Ily's brother and he has looked like a world beater and the best pound-for-pound fighter we have ever seen and he's sitting on the stool in the fourth round and I see him hunched over not having that dog in him that fight the desire to continue I'm stopping the fight as well you know the one thing that we don't do Josh as much in MMA as they do in boxing is they stop fights When you really go back to boxing and watch boxing, you have an undefeated fighter and he's 19 and0 and they keep slowly giving him tougher and tougher opposition, but one day he might meet his match. And when they see that the the the end of the fight, the the course of the fight is inevitable. My fighter is not coming back from this. He's taking too much damage. He's a step behind. He's not quite there yet. Or it's just not his night. They literally throw in the towel. That's where the throw in the towel thing came from. We don't really throw in the towel anymore in MMA. We have to tell the commission.

[00:06:52]The commission stops the fight or we tell the referee when we're in between rounds right there. But they save their fighters in boxing when it seems like it's a foregone conclusion. In boxing, the referees even step in and wave it off sometimes where in MMA it could be more dangerous at times because us as fans, analysts, fighters, we're like, "Let us go out on our own shield." But when you see the the amount of damage each and every round, how much he was taking, how much his face was swelling, he had an opportunity in that second or third round when he had Justin in his submission, but after that it was gone.

[00:07:28]So, it was the right decision as much as a lot of us I'll say one thing when he was when the when the doctor almost stopped it the first time and we had that long uh that was I think at the end of the third round. I was telling the doctor, "Get the hell out of there. He's ready to go. he's telling you, I'm good to go.

[00:07:44]>> But that's not what we saw at the end of the fourth round. We saw a guy on a stool, hunched over, and he didn't want it anymore. And I think his brother was the one that recognized that and told the referee, "We're done."

[00:07:56]>> Yeah. Let let me tell you the reason why they don't throw in the towel. I mean, Nate Diaz's brother, Nick Diaz, threw in the towel for him when I fought him.

[00:08:04]When I fought Nate Diaz, that was the last time I think I'd seen a towel being thrown in in MMA. Um, the the other thing is that the reason why we don't stop fights, it's because we have so many different ways to win a fight in boxing. Once you can't move and once your head movements off and once you're taking shots and the guy we've established the guy's faster and the guy's got harder hand or heavier hands, there's really no way of you coming back. It's a one-dimension part of of the our game of our fighting game. In MMA, I can still out wrestle you. I can still hit you with the submission. I can still knock you out on the feet. have so many options that make it easier for me to potentially win even if I am losing the first two rounds and we've seen it before in the past where guys have come back after taking a beaten you know and um I think that's one of their biggest I think that's probably the biggest reason why we don't stop them because there's always an avenue I think for a fighter to win and I'll give an example is one of my very actually my very first fight ever I was beating the [ __ ] out of this guy we it was amateur it was like I was you were throwing I had shinuards on and head gear And I was piecing him up. I threw a headkick to start the third round because I had told everybody I was going to knock him out with a headkick. And I threw the headkick, slipped on the mat, he jumped on my back, hit an inverted triangle because he was slipping off. I tripoded up. He was sliding off. He hit me with a inverted triangle and finished me. Like that's that's the difference is that at any moment that guy can go out there and think he's safe and make a mistake and get caught with an arm bar, get caught with a triangle. And Ilia almost caught him in that second round or whatever the round it was. I mean, he was he was really going back and watching it.

[00:09:40]>> And I'm not trying to nitpick at Ilia's performance, but since we're talking about two of the most high level guys in the world, there was a point when he was trying to set up a mounted triangle when he had it on top. And I think he should have stayed there. I think he should have hooked the shin base on his left arm and tried to hook that triangle.

[00:09:58]What he did was he slid off to the side and tried to go swim move in the arm bar which a guy that's super scrambly and tough like that is going to slip out of and he was able to slip out. I saw a comparison that Ilia Topor was trying to do like Bib Nagamed off did to him >> but I think he was in a better position to just sit there on top in the mount try to lock in that triangle and then beat on him take the arm take the triangle that would have been his best path to victory but my point being to what you just said it didn't seem like he was going to be able to win this fight on the feet. Yeah, he hurt him to the body and Justin Gai was able to survive a liver shot and come back and beat him up. But you know what was telling for me? The opening seconds, Ilia walks forward and within 3 seconds he eats a stiff jab from Justin and then you started seeing his eye swelling. He walks forward more. No regard to the power and the danger of Justin Gate.

[00:10:49]Eats some more jabs. He was bleeding early in the fight, first or second round. Right away, I could tell he's not respecting Justin and he's kind of living in this mid-range. And you can't live in the mid-range against a guy like this. Yes, you're the slicker boxer. You have the body strikes, but you have to play some in and-out or mix things up with the takedowns. But if you're going to sit and say, "I'm willing to eat the jabs and the possible jab cross from Justin to get mine, you playing roulette with a dangerous killer, a finisher like Justin Gishi." And it was just to me, it told me right away, look, look at the damage. He's willing to take damage to get something, but look how much of damage he's absorbing. Justin looked normal at the end of the fight.

[00:11:33]>> I mean, Ilia looked like he got in a train wreck, and Justin looked like he could have gone and had some beers after.

[00:11:37]>> Yeah, there was one uppercut that landed early in the fight. I want to say it was like at the end of round one and you could just see Ilia at the same moment they showed a close-up of his face when he got hit with the uppercut and he covered his eye like ooh that hurt and he went to this he went from just being like this right to to covering his eye completely like oh that hurt and I just right from that moment what I had been saying for the last couple weeks I was like holy crap like I was I was on point when I said the uppercuts the knees and the head kicks will be key in this fight and the knees weren't as effective as I thought they would be. He didn't throw them as much. I thought Justin Gatei was going to throw him more, but the head kick which kept his hands loyal so it made it more difficult for him to pull the trigger knowing that Justin Gatei had heavy kicks. And I go and the uppercut because he was the shorter fighter and the uppercuts did all the damage. And then as the uppercut started landing, the jabs started opening up because got he got nervous about dipping his head because he didn't want to get hit with a clean uppercut. Now the jabs became available and then the head kicks opened up more. It just was it was a beautiful job by Justin Gatei in putting everything together. Now, he had moments where he had his back to the fence and kind of fought desperately and got caught with some big shots. The body shot. He took some huge shots to the head against the fence. He slurped him up, man. No, I got it. Just kept coming.

[00:12:58]This is what we love about Justin Gatey.

[00:13:00]How do you not love this guy? How do you not love the way he fights? I don't think it's good for his health, but neither is fighting. We've done it for so long, Allan. Like, we we we were we were good at it, but man, this guy has been through some of the toughest battles ever in the in in the sport ever. Not just like in his weight class, not just like in the last two or three fights, literally ever. Like his last fight in the World Series of Fighting was against Buscape where he was losing the fight, but he put such hands on him.

[00:13:30]He looked just as bad as I did. Buscape did. He was cut here. Eye was swollen.

[00:13:36]They had to stop the fight going into the fifth round because of the cut. And Buscap was arguably winning the fight. I believe he was winning the fight. I think it was like three to one on the cards and he ends up getting the win.

[00:13:46]Comes to the UFC and has great performances. Michael Johnson, all the other ones, right? I just I look at what Justin did that night and I just want to say, man, what a story pitcher prep perfect way to win the title. Amazing.

[00:13:59]there in front of the White House and getting that photo that they have of him doing the back flip, >> the White House in the background.

[00:14:05]Beautiful. That claw thing over him. I mean, it was it was awesome. It was awesome.

[00:14:09]>> The Lopez photo when he's sitting on top of the cage. I mean, there was so many I would my house would look >> like a MMA museum if I was on that card because there's so many sick shots.

[00:14:19]>> Going back to what you just said about Justin Gishi being able to absorb the damage and make other people look unrecognizable. This is where I see the sport going in 20 years, right? Right now, everybody is getting started in the sport so young. You have 13-year-old kids that are blue belt level at every aspect of the of the art. And you get this fight at the White House with two of the top fighters in the game, good at every single position. They're basically number one and number two in the world facing off at the White House. What's the X factor? Right? Because a lot of us thought the skill of Iliatoporia would be the X factor, but in fact it wasn't.

[00:14:56]Justin had equal amount of skill.

[00:14:58]Ilottopia has, you know, little Canelo type boxing combinations that we and power that we thought would be the X factor, but in fact, it was the other things that you can't really teach. And what I'm getting at here is I think this is where the sport is going the next 20 years. If everybody starts when they're a kid and by the time they get to the UFC or the big show, they're a black belt at every martial art of the fight, then what's going to stand out? What's going to be the difference maker? And for me, it's these three things. A, it's an athleticism. And I say athleticism, and am I naturally a faster puncher, striker, or I'm also just MMA fight athletic? Justin Gishi to me is the perfect MMA athleticism, right? He he probably can't play basketball very well and I don't know how good he is at football, but the man can wrestle his ass off. The man has a cardio gas tank and he's got this kind of this this kind of herkyjerky lightning speed where he pops the jab, he kind of leans over on his power side and he throws that right hand when you don't think it's coming and you can't get your defense up. He's the perfect type of MMA athlete that you need to be in there.

[00:16:02]Number two is is the mentality. Like you can't teach heart. You can't teach desire. You can't teach a guy to put him on the biggest stage with the most amount of nerves and have him come out cold as ice and just perform. It doesn't matter who he was fighting tonight, he was going to perform the same way. You could have put him in front of the the world, which it somewhat was in this matchup and he's still able to perform.

[00:16:27]He doesn't wither under the bright lights. And number three is the durability. It's if if you take the everybody's a black belt at everything and then both guys happen to be athletic and they've both got heart. Somebody's got to lose somehow if they're equal on all these things. But what about the durability? Not everybody can take the type of shots that Justin Gishi takes and barely have a scratch and then he delivers them and he breaks two orbital bones. He's durable. He's MMA athletic and he's got heart. He's got every factor to be the perfect fighter.

[00:17:05]>> That's a that's a great explanation.

[00:17:07]Like honestly, it comes down to when these guys when the sport as the sport matures, it's going to come down to those things. And durability is going to be I would actually put durability probably closer to the top because when everyone is equal, it's who can actually take more damage and who is willing to take more damage. That's a mental thing.

[00:17:24]Who's willing to go out there and go ahead and take that damage to get the win? You know, we saw that with Diego Lopez and Steve Garcia. He was losing a technical fight. He's like, "Screw it. I got to go out there and just make this a dog fight." He went out there and within seconds of making it a dog fight, he knocked Steve Garcia out. Like, if he didn't make that switch and that mental switch of like, "Hey, I'm not winning it this way. I need to win this way." If he didn't do that, he would have lost. He would have just lo lost a point match.

[00:17:51]There's moments as a fighter you need to realize that an L is an L. No matter how you get it, whether I lose by submission, I lose by knockout, or I lose by decision, it's all an L. So, I I think in in Diego Lopez's mind, if I go out there and I if I lose just by getting out pointed, it's still a loss.

[00:18:09]I'm going to go out there and make this I'm going to take this change. I'm going to take this this fight back. And Justin Gai has always had that in him. He's always been the guy like, "No, I'm not going to lose this way. I'm going to just wing it and see what happens. Allah the Max Holloway situation.

[00:18:25]>> Unfortunately, it didn't go his way at the end the last 10 seconds, but the fight wasn't going his way anyways. An L is an L.

[00:18:32]>> He understands that. He wraps his head around it and and and we love that about him. That's what makes him so spectacular. The human highlight reel >> was definitely performing that night and performing in highlight a real fashion.

[00:18:43]>> I I just want to touch on the walk out before we move on. Um, obviously at this point everybody has seen the walk out multiple times. It's kind of gone viral on the internet. And to be honest, the night that I was watching it, it didn't hit me as hard as it did until knowing what the results were that night and going back and re-watching it. Right now, I'm putting myself in a position where he just one of the biggest upsets in UFC history on the biggest card in UFC history. Now, let me go back and watch what was his energy, what was his train of thought. And it was such a beautiful walk out. I don't think this will ever be topped just from that that wide pan to going into the into the White House and he's in the Oval Office and he and he's staring at the declaration and all that.

[00:19:27]But what I took from it was a guy that accepted his fate. I looked at it and I go, Justin Gishi is a guy that has accepted his faith that if he's going to go and die tonight, he's willing to die. He's not going to give up on himself and he's going to do everything in his power to win this fight. But whatever happens, he's going out there and he's giving it all. If he gets in a horrible position like he did in the second round, it's not going to be any sort of shock or surprise because he's already accepted the possibility of death. He's going into this fight knowing that the last three opponents that Lilia went against went to sleep.

[00:20:01]Some of those opponents against Justin Gishi, who put Justin Gishi to sleep.

[00:20:06]So, the odds aren't looking good, but he didn't have any doubt in himself. But more so, I felt like he was willing to die that night. And when he walked down that hallway with the presidential pictures in the background and it was a slow walk by himself with that music playing and I just felt like he was very vulnerable. He gave this vulnerability to the world that he was giving us this.

[00:20:30]I'm walking. This could be my last walk.

[00:20:32]This is this is that walk that I'm going to war and I'm accepting it. And it gave me chills. and then I'm going to watch Ilia Tapora's walk. It was complete opposite. It was I already had my victory celebration the night before.

[00:20:46]I'm going out here and I'm going to dominate as I've done each and every time. And I'm not saying that he wasn't prepared, that he wasn't prepared for a war, that he didn't train hard. But you can't tell me that a guy that has already accepted fate, accepted the possibility of death, accepted that he could be knocked out when he gets in those positions doesn't perform better than the guy that hasn't accepted that at all, which was Iliot. He thought he was going to go out there and not even get out of the first round. And when he sat on the stool at the end of the first round, he already was hard to look normal again. He didn't look the same after the first round. And it's hard to change the momentum because MMA to me is a bunch of momentum changes. And we saw that in round one. Round two, Ilia had a strong round. Round three, Justin was back at it, changing the momentum again.

[00:21:30]It gave me the same feeling when uh it was Mike Bisby was fighting Lronold for the belt and Mike Bisby walked out of there, the biggest chance of his life on days notice to fight for the belt and his kids were sitting side ringside by the octagon and he hugged and kissed every one of his family members and walked into the octagon. And I remember telling my wife, "Oh man, this gives me chills." And then Luke Rockold walked out and it was almost just like I'm the champ. I'm the champ.

[00:21:58]And I knew something was off. Luke Rockold expected to go dominate Mike Bisping like he did the first time and it didn't play out anything like that. I got the same emotions, the same feeling from the walk out in the White House card and sure enough the same type of thing happened.

[00:22:11]>> Yeah. Look, I remember the Bisming and and uh Rockold fight. Rockhole was a teammate of mine at the time.

[00:22:17]>> Did you pick up on that when Rockold walk out? Do you remember his walk out?

[00:22:20]>> No. know, I picked up on it in training when he was at the gym working out and just like, "Oh no, I'm good. I'm fighting bisming again." Like when it was announced that he was fighting like >> it's like I've already knocked him out.

[00:22:29]I'm going to do it again. Like it's going to make it even look easier. And I was like, "Oh man." And we all were talking about it like kind of a little bit behind, you know, closed doors. But it was like, "Hey guys," we kept telling him, "Bro, you got to take him serious.

[00:22:40]This guy got to the title shot before.

[00:22:42]He's beaten guys like Anderson Silva.

[00:22:43]Like you're like you you've he's got he's got some wins, man. He's not just some slump, some chump." And uh it just so happened that he went out there and kind of you could see as soon as Luke came out was kind of like just like >> he was aware of how he looked, right? He wasn't in the moment. He was kind of aware of what he looked like to the rest of the world. And I think Ilia had a bit of that >> in him that night as well. And it's it's >> I make the comparison with horse racing sometimes. People that bet on horse races, they watch the horses walk out to the gate, right? And if they're sweating profusely in the butt, that means they maybe they're too excited. All these different things. You could see that in a fighter's eyes and his body language when they're making them walk out sometimes. And it isn't 100% like what's going to happen. But sometimes the smallest little detail that we're talking about now determines the outcome. How well are you going to perform that night? I don't know if it would have been any different if Ilia came out accepting the faith that he could die that night, that he could get knocked out that night, but to me it was telling that he was overlooking Justin Gi.

[00:23:44]>> Well, let's talk more about your horses and sweating too much in the butt. Let's figure that out. I don't know how you got to that, but >> your butt gets real sweaty with the with the horse racing.

[00:23:53]>> Uh, obviously another huge topic which is which has been huge. Like John McCarthy broke this down a little bit.

[00:23:58]We actually did a full just like probably about 40 minutes ago, 50 minutes ago. We wrapped up on filming an hourong segment almost an hourong segment on the serial gone and Alex Beeta um what seems to be a legal blow to the back of the head. Alex will be petitioning it from what I understand and obviously her Dean is getting a lot of criticism based off of this. I played a couple videos for John that should probably re release sometime tonight or maybe early tomorrow morning. Check that video out. But the two videos that we did talking about, you know, obviously Tuporia and Gachi and the the round three round four, sorry, yeah, round three, round four controversy as well as the illegal blows that those two those two clips did very well. I mean, very well. So, now we're going to break it all down perfectly with Big John on this next segment that's coming out probably tonight or tomorrow morning. That being said, what was your takeaway when you were watching it live? Got to be careful. Watch the back of the head. Be careful. At no point was I saying, "Stop the fight. This is an illegal blow."

[00:24:57]That was my take on it. When when you have an opponent hurt, as he had him hurt, dropped him, and you're going for the finish, not only is it hard to decipher touching the ear, not touching the ear, an inch low, an inch high, but in real time, we always kind of Well, I don't say I don't know if we give the the referees the benefit of the doubt in sports, we give them a hard time, but I was giving Herb Dean the benefit of the doubt because he was running trying to find the angles and a lot of people were saying there was 13 shots that were illegal. So, I went back and I watched it one time and from what I could see, a clear foul, not one that was the opposite angle, not one that the forearm touched the ear, but the fist went over where it's kind of in between, but I saw about three illegal shots that I definitively go that looked that looked illegal. Then there were probably three or four, maybe more that were close and the rest were legal to me.

[00:25:55]>> So, in my mind and You have a different opinion maybe and Big John knows best. When a fighter is hurt and another fighter is going for the finish and there's three legal, one illegal, three legal, two that are on the fence, do you stop the action in the heat of the moment, especially if you can't quite see and definitively say that those were three illegal ones in a in a row without definitively knowing that. I gave Herb Dean the benefit of the doubt and I go, I'm okay with it.

[00:26:27]H interesting. John took a little bit more of your approach. But what I will say is this is that when you when you take a look at how that it was all happening and when it was happening in live is Herb Dean is moving across right in front of the camera which blocked some of the view which means one thing that the referee was not in the right spot to see what the action was going.

[00:26:48]>> So was he out of position possibly? No, >> he was on the wrong side as the blow took place and then as the hit fight hit the ground, he was in the he had to position himself because of the way Alex had hit the ground. He had to position himself in another position to see the illegal blows. Now, that being said, I didn't ever hear maybe I maybe my volume wasn't enough. I never heard Herb Dean say, "Watch the back of the head."

[00:27:11]That's one. Should have been maybe more vocal about that. Two is you know as well as I know the refs go into the back before the fight and they walk you through the rules. If you have questions, they talk about it.

[00:27:22]Ultimately, at the end of the day, it is the fighter's responsibility to have control of their weapons. Knees, elbows, feet, whatever it is. Sir Gan needs to have more control of his weapons. I went through this on several shows already that I've done in the last couple days.

[00:27:39]He is somebody who has fouled quite a bit. Whether it's eye pokes, whether it's shots to the back of the head.

[00:27:45]There's actually videos now. People have pulled out videos of the Derrick Lewis fight right before the stoppage. He is hammerfisting Derrick Lewis directly in the back of the head and Derrick Lewis is covering his neck because he's getting hit in the back of the head. I think when he fought, I think it was Spivac, he is able and even tied to Avasa, he rocks them and as he finishes them, he actually clubs them right in the back of the neck.

[00:28:07]>> He kind of spazzes out, right? Like he doesn't really he's it's like he's not comfortable in that position. and he's a striker that now finds himself in a grounded striking position and he doesn't know how to target it. I And look, every every point that you just made I didn't even think of and I think you're accurate, but I just want to ask you this.

[00:28:23]>> Take away the history and I know it's hard to because >> Okay, >> right. But take away the history and single out this one fight.

[00:28:30]>> If you were Herb Dean, he was in the wrong position.

[00:28:34]>> If you were Herb Dean, from the position that you saw and what we just spoke about, maybe three were actual illegal out of 13. Would you have stopped the fight?

[00:28:43]>> I would have stopped the fight.

[00:28:45]>> I would have stopped it and stood them up because let's just be honest. I don't care if the guy is rocked. Okay. You illegally and if you actually go back and watch it, the elbow that lands right to the back of his neck, you watch um Alex's body kind of go limp for a split second.

[00:29:03]>> And those are the worst ones. That's what they're trying to protect the most is the spine, the neck.

[00:29:06]>> Yeah. And so Alex then from that moment then he takes another little like kind of hammer fist after that to the back of the neck, but it's a chopping one. Those still hurt. Those still hurt and those still do damage, especially after you've already been rocked. That being said, I would have stopped the fight. I probably not I probably wouldn't have taken a a point based on the fact that it's a title fight.

[00:29:25]>> Take away position, stand him back up, >> give him time to recover. These are these are the type of things that we can't we can't say, "Oh, it's okay because he was hurt and it was in the heat of the moment. I that's not an excuse. As a referee, your job is to protect the fighters." And I had this argument with Big John is that it doesn't matter. Oh, it was in the heat of the moment. That's not an excuse.

[00:29:46]That's what the refs are trained for.

[00:29:47]And I like Herb Dean as a referee. I've had my own problems with Herb Dean twice in two of my fights. Okay. I fought Kleita. He allowed Kleita to pull open my cut, which is illegal. stuck his fingers in my cut and pulled it open. He gave him seven warnings for keeping his hands near my eyes and poking me in the eye and pulling the cut open. I got I was I couldn't see for almost two three days. Two or three day four or five days probably after that almost a whole week.

[00:30:12]Couldn't see because he was pulling on my cut. That being said, then when I fought Tony Ferguson, I was getting my ass kicked, got dropped, was fighting my way back, hit two of my half guard sweep that I normally hit to get back to the top position. Tony grabs the fence. He tells him, "No, don't." He's like, "Let go of the fence." And goes to slap his hand off of it or like gestures towards the hand because I was on bottom. I can only see him out of the corner of my eye cuz I wanted to see if Tony was grabbing the fence. He gives him the warning. I go to sweep again. He grabs the fence again, lets him stay on top. Then I basically, you know, when you're tired, you're getting your ass kicked and it's not going your way and the ref is allowing him to do this. No point, no standup. you start thinking to yourself, I can't win this fight. I got two guys working against me at one time. In this situation, it is the job of Herb Dean. I think Herb is a great ref because I have to take in consideration this guy refs thousands of fights a year. He refs on Thursdays, he refs on Fridays, he refs on Saturdays, sometimes probably even on Sunday, which he did this last weekend.

[00:31:13]Do you understand what I'm saying? Like these aren't just because he's there for the UFC. Don't think that he's only refing UFC fights. He's refing a ton of other No, he refs everywhere.

[00:31:23]consistency.

[00:31:24]>> Yes, >> is inconsistency is the word that comes to mind when I think about her. He's he's probably the most experienced ref out there at this point now that John, you know, had those years off, but you see great fights out of him from the refing position and you see some where he missed a call and it's a lot of inconsistencies.

[00:31:42]This is a tough one. You know, I I would have been okay with it either way. As you said, if he would have stopped the action, stood them back up to the feet, I wouldn't have had any bones to pick. I also wasn't against him allowing it to continue because I said it was a lot of gray area that people were getting up in arms about that they didn't realize this was gray area and or still legal, but they didn't realize it. But a foul is a foul.

[00:32:09]>> Yeah, >> it's it's a it's it's a heat of the moment type of thing. And I think with the referee's split-second decision is he needs to be in position to see it.

[00:32:18]Make a decision right away if it's standing up and stopping the action at a possible climactic part of the fight or not. That's his uh that's his his job.

[00:32:28]But also making a decision is the guy like is the fight over, right? Did did this change the course of the fight? It's much easier when somebody's getting double leg and they grab the fence, right? It's pretty obvious they were going to get taken down. defense held him up. When the guy's kind of wobbled and out of it and he's taking some shots and some illegal ones slipped through, how much does he want to insert himself into the fight? I was okay with it. So So you're you're against it. I'm okay with it. I'm not saying he did the right thing, but I'm okay with it. And John's position was similar. He said like >> from a a referee's perspective, John said I was okay with the way it played out.

[00:33:06]>> Did he say he made any adjustments? He just said >> I didn't want I didn't want to press him on that. I don't want him making decisions against people he trains with and he's works with. That's not what I'm >> put on the spot a bit.

[00:33:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. Because I would I was going to ask him at the end like, "Okay, so would you have stopped it?" And then I realized if he would have said yes, I would have stopped it would have put Herb in a bad position.

[00:33:24]>> That's the uh Yeah. That's the That's the photo.

[00:33:27]>> That's the cover. Yeah. And for me, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get clarification. I'm getting I'm trying to get so much clarification that Big John's doing a a refereeing course at Extreme Tours July 17th or the 19th and I'm taking that course because I want to know these things.

[00:33:42]>> I want to know why what what separates one thing from the other.

[00:33:46]>> You know, like why would we not like I've always said this >> eye pokes, I don't care if it's just the pinky nail or the full finger, it's still an eye poke. I don't care if you grab the fence with one finger. If you grab it with the whole hand, it's still a fence grab. What is the difference if I just graze you to the back of the head or if I hit you three or four times?

[00:34:04]There's no difference. It's a foul. A foul is a foul. And let me just say this, this is the most egregious one of them all because this will cause serious brain damage if done the right way. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like we've seen boxers die. We've seen boxers paralyzed. We've seen boxers with severe damage after something like this. And that this is this is what's concerned.

[00:34:28]This is not a, oh, let's just see what happens. It was in the heat of the moment. No, this is a you need to be held accountable.

[00:34:33]>> Now, I I will say, I don't know if we see eye to eye on this, but I don't find two fouls are the same. And what I mean by that is, okay, a foul is a foul, and they should call it. I just wish there was a a standard that we list that we go by, but it's it's it's the referee's decision. You know, different referees see things differently.

[00:34:52]>> Discretion. Thank you.

[00:34:54]But I think anytime the eyes are touched, accidental or not, there should be a foul. But there's also glancing that the guy is just kind of in shock.

[00:35:04]And there's also a poke where the guy is actually hurt and can't see. Gray area, a low blow. Sometimes the foot hits the nuts, you know, and sometimes the guys throw up in a bucket like we saw in Road to the FC just recently in Macau. And sometimes it's just a shock of the moment. I've been hit low blow a few times. I've never needed a break more than 10 seconds. It was a shock. I go, "Hey, yo yo yo yo, okay. Okay, I'm good.

[00:35:28]I wore a steel cup. I'm fine." So, there there is like a gray area there. Now, when you talk about fence grabbing, >> I do feel like this should be an automatic point deduction because it's like a clear cheat like you're cheating.

[00:35:42]You were going down and you but it also did not hurt the other fighter. So, I can't say a fence grab is also equivalent to a direct eye poke. So, there is differences here. here. And I guess what I'm saying is it's tough in the heat of the moment to make that clear decision on what you should do.

[00:35:59]But if referees sort of just always taking a point, any little foul, it's going to suck because sometimes the glancing eye poke that didn't hurt or the low blow that just the toe hit the inner thigh and it glance off of the cup and he's not even hurt. Guys are going to be start start being smarter with their weapons as you said with little guy. You won't have these guys that go, I'm going to play in the gay gray area.

[00:36:21]I'm going to look for this finish and if something lands illegally, it lands because he's been getting away with this before. It's going to make guys be smarter about how they use their weapons.

[00:36:31]>> No, I would agree with you. But I think also too with one of my conversations with John was as a referee, you need to know who you're dealing with. Serial Gone has been known to be someone who fouls. His last fight with Tom Asenol, double eye poke. Not one, not one finger went in, both fingers went into the eye.

[00:36:48]And it's happened. The meeting before is crucial that you spoke about before the fight. That meeting get to know your fighter.

[00:36:53]>> Yep. You need to get to know them. They should also do they they should also know previously what they have committed fouls on.

[00:36:59]>> And a quick little like chat GTP we'll look up. You can look that up. How many fouls has serial gone committed inside the UFC cage since he's been in which is what I did. Literally it's 10 to 14.

[00:37:10]>> Really >> legit fouls. Several eye pokes.

[00:37:14]>> You know how many fouls you have comos?

[00:37:16]Every time you're every time you are warned inside the cage, chat pulls it up. Says he was warned in the cage.

[00:37:22]Watch the eyeook. Watch the back of the head. Watch this. Watch that.

[00:37:25]>> So, that being said, like as a ref, you need to know this guy is known to, you know, >> hit that gray area. And what they did with the eye pokes, which I was somewhat against because this is one of the most defensive positions to be in, is a casual person at home, if I run at you, they're going to go, "Oh." They're going to stick their hands out and stick their fingers out. This this is a normal defense even for pro fighters. So I was kind of against like, hey, take a point every time there's an eye poke. But we saw real quick, hey, we're giving you the warning now. If you do poke them in the eye, there will be an eye poke. As in like, hey, you had the warning in the cage. I warned you in the back already.

[00:38:01]And if you keep doing it and you do poke them in the eye, it's an automatic eye poke. It's another point. It's a point deduction, which is fine. The growing shot is something completely different because I don't know what idiots are still fighting with a plastic cup because I never fought with a plastic cup. I can't wrap my head around.

[00:38:18]>> I talked about this on Joe Rogan. I'm like, why would you not wear a tie cup?

[00:38:22]>> A tie cup or the diamond cup or like why are you going to Dick Sporting Goods and getting this little jock strap that guys are playing other sports with? This is this is real impact. And as I said, I wore a tie cup, a steel cup, my entire Muay Thai, amateur MMA, professional MMA career, and I never once had to sit down and take more than a 10-second break.

[00:38:42]It's a guys need to get with the program on this.

[00:38:45]>> I, you know, I'm kind of contradicting myself. You you you're enlightening me to some things because I said, let's take this fight, Silon versus >> um uh Alex, and not look at the previous history, but would you have stopped it?

[00:38:58]But to kind of contradict myself, I do think when you have the meeting in the back, that is the time that if Herb Dean would have chat GPT it and known that he had taken 10 or 14 fouls already, he go, "Look, you've got a reputation for fouls. You've been in a gray area quite a bit these last five fights. This is a hard warning. Continuing from your last fight where it was an eye poke. We cannot watch your weapons. Play it safe.

[00:39:24]if I see anything from here because the fights that you had last time ended in a no contest. I don't want that to happen here. I don't want anybody to be injured. It's an immediate point deduction. Watch your weapons. Maybe he would have cleaned it up a lot more. So, I'm actually I'm all for that. Yeah. And that's the thing is we need to set the standard. You have to We can't let it slide based on oh because it was in the heat of the moment. No, no, no. A lot of bad things happen in the heat of the moment. Bad decisions happen in the heat of the moment. He made a couple bad decisions in in allowing those strikes to land. And also too, in him throwing those trucks, you need to have control.

[00:39:56]John threw it in my face a little bit.

[00:39:58]He's like, "Oh, I he didn't I don't know if he actually went back and watched it, but I am now going to go back and watch my Nate Diaz fight." How many of the fight How many of the strikes did I land did they land to the back of his head or were they in the safety zone? John believes that there was one or two that landed to the back of the head when I fought Nate. So, I'm going to go back and take a look cuz now he's got my mind thinking like, "Okay, well, let me see."

[00:40:19]because I remember consciously thinking while I'm hitting him, hit the ear, hit the ear, hit the ear, you know, and Nate was kind of moving and covering a little bit, maybe I did hit the I'm I have to go back and take a look, but in those heat in that heat of the moment where he's almost he's basically done, did I hit him in the back of the head? Did I?

[00:40:38]I want to take a look. So, those are there are things that I want to take a look at, but I can't contradict myself.

[00:40:42]I want to say, hey, >> chat, did Josh cheat against Nate Diaz?

[00:40:49]Oh, >> it wasn't called so it won't be on chat.

[00:40:52]>> Oh man. So those are things I just think they >> Herb coming out and giving a full explanation on what it is this and that.

[00:41:01]But then there's also still photos of literally like Sugan's hammer fist to the back of the neck and the head.

[00:41:07]>> And then there's also an elbow that landed. He's like, "Oh, it looks like it kind of grazed." Doesn't matter. A grazing shot is a grazing shot. A grazing shot on the eye can do just as much damage as a full eye poke. So, we can't we can't say, "Oh, well, it was just a graze. Oh, it didn't land clean."

[00:41:21]I can't say that. We just don't know.

[00:41:24]Okay? Because the shot that I saw that landed with Justin Gate, he landed that uppercut against Ilia the very first time he covered his eye. It didn't look hard, >> but obviously it worked.

[00:41:34]>> So, it looked more like a grazing shot of it. It just kind of snapped his head up a little bit.

[00:41:39]>> We know that those type of shots can have a a huge effect, and it's been proven time and time again. So, I hope that look, there's no way this going to get overturned. There's just no way.

[00:41:50]>> Yeah. Because you'd have to go back and overturn thousands that were very so many fights that that gray area happens and in the heat of the moment and and this didn't happen in a fight, but this is something that some fighters do and they going for a finish and they just start going kind of spam on the hammer fist and they start looking at the referee putting the referee in an awkward position. I need to make a decision. He didn't do that. He didn't look up at Herb Dean, but he went berserk with the controller just hammerfisting and throwing everything and Herb Dean had to eventually step in and it's put him in a position where like, okay, that clean clean. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And stop it. And those are those are tough positions, man. I I'll defend them a bit in this one. It's just it's just a tough position when it's happening live. We had to watch steel frames in slow motion to see was it on the air, was it not? In real speed, it's hard to see it clearly.

[00:42:40]>> Yeah. For me, I've looked at the history of serial gone. I've looked at these last two fights and serial gone to me seems to be a serial cheater. And that I know that seems very harsh to say, but seeing also past fights from the Tai to Avasa fight, he rocks Tai, he has him hurt, legitly has him hurt, and in a moment where Tai kind of turns away, he literally grabs the head and hammerfists him right behind the neck. It's just and he has that punch in his bag that he throws. He did it against I want to say it was Spacback. He grabs the head and he hammer fist. Now I try to hit him with a straight right. It's a hammer fist. He's throwing it like like almost like a tomahawk chop. I'm like, you must really know that this is an effective move and this is illegal to hit someone in the back of the neck, but he does it.

[00:43:30]And I think in the moment the ref's like, "Oh, it's just cuz he landed the shot." And it's and that's the problem.

[00:43:35]And then I saw it too with Derrick Lewis. When Dererick Lewis finally gets dropped, he hits him in the back of the head and Derrick Lewis covers his neck.

[00:43:41]Those are the type of things that I feel like as much as we should say, as much as we say that these fighters need to have control of their weapons, this makes me feel it's because it's happened in other fights when you really break it down, there's a little bit of like on purpose to it.

[00:43:56]>> Yeah. You look at the history of it.

[00:43:58]Yeah.

[00:43:59]>> Yeah. And then for him to be done the uh interim champion now and moving in in his last two fights surrounded with controversy, it's just not a good look.

[00:44:10]>> I tell you this much, if if I was the fighter that will be facing Sidoggon next, I would certainly during the referee meeting when I'm in the back and I'm about to walk out and I had that meeting, I would definitely bring it up and tell them and I would film it and I would say, "Listen, we're filming this.

[00:44:24]I want you to be aware. You look at the evidence. He's gray area last fight. I poked the fight before. He's had other ones even prior to that. I need you to give him a hard warning in these areas.

[00:44:33]I need you to be on top of things. And if it happens again, my lord. And and somebody brings that video to light where they warned Herb Dean. Well, I guess might who knows who the referee would be, but they warned the referee about him, that would maybe be some type of evidence that it could possibly get overturned when somebody could actually bring a case and do it. But as you I agree with you, I don't think this is getting overturned.

[00:44:54]He showed he showed some of the welps in the back of the head, but you know, >> yeah, >> they probably came from that, but after every fight, I've got bumps in the back of my head as well. So, I don't know if they're just going to be able to >> do anything.

[00:45:07]>> Could have been you trying to hit the single leg and you hit your head on his knee. It could be from so many different things. So, they're not going to overturn this. Like, I've dealt with commissions um from the illegal headbutt and this and that that I end up losing the fight because of the headbutt and getting getting knocked out right after the headbutt. It's just one of those things. they will not overturn it because then that opens Pandora's box for every fighter that something like that ever happened to. They'll never do it. Uh I had this conversation with the commission uh commissioner. I had the conversation with the politicians that make the ruling. There's no way they're overturning it. There's >> for me, man. Um best fight card ever.

[00:45:42]>> Absolutely.

[00:45:44]Hands down. It's not even close. I would even arguably go into the best sporting event ever. O yeah, >> I would even say that.

[00:45:52]>> Uh so I'm kind of like on the fence. It it it it makes me Well, I don't want to go too deep in the weeds on this, but like what do you call your best event?

[00:46:03]Because it was at the White House, because they had seven of seven finishes, because of the monumental upset, because of the beautiful walk out with Justin Gish. Like, was it everything combined? And when I look combined everything, I say yes. If I'm talking about like the moment like I still can't get UFC 300 Max Holloway knocking out Justin Gishi like there's never been a moment where I was jumping up and down in shock like I didn't do that during this card. So that's also one of them as well. The the pay-per-view before that Josh Hokit uh versus Curtis Blades that was like I'm just like spilling my wine all over myself thinking what the hell am I watching calling you know what I'm saying? I didn't have quite that moment for every one of these fights. So when I look at specific moments, there's other ones that battle it, but when I encompass everything, the platform, the stage, the seven for seven finishes, the monumental comeback, just the beauty of this event, um I thought it was well done. I felt like personally they didn't lean too too political. They didn't lean too proTrump. It was a lot of America.

[00:47:06]Josh Hokit screwed everything up with his comment. But you extract that comment that that stupid comment that Josh Hook had and it was just the best event that I can imagine is definitely in MMA.

[00:47:19]>> Okay, so all the things encompassed to me made it the greatest probably the greatest sporting event I've ever been been able to watch. That one two is I have never been outside of Habib fighting and winning the title. I've never been when he fought Justin Gates when he already won the title was fighting him. I I had never been on the edge of my seat yelling at my TV like I was for Justin Gatei. Knowing that he'd come up short before, knowing that he was the interim champion before, he was the BMF title, but wanting an American to get it done on the White House lawn. It was it was special for me and it was I know it was special for him. Like I wanted it for him. He was a plus420 when I bet on him.

[00:48:02]Put $1,000 on him, >> right? It was a plus420. That's how much of a dog he was. People had written him off. Media had written him off. And I was like, "No, man. He's got the tools.

[00:48:13]He's got the uppercut. He's got the kicks. He's got ways to beat him." And I just I don't know. It was something in me just said like he I it was a it was it was a long shot, but that that had that fight not ended the way it did, I wouldn't have put it I wouldn't have put it up there. Justin Gate is the reason why I made it probably the most exciting sporting event I've ever seen in my life.

[00:48:32]>> You put a thousand on Justin.

[00:48:34]>> Yep.

[00:48:34]>> Okay. Hey Arman, chill out, bro.

[00:48:36]>> No, no, he put a million.

[00:48:38]That dude's buying him a truck because of that. He just wants to know what color.

[00:48:42]>> Okay, I got to ask you, Josh. So, did the $1,000 bet have you on the edge of the seat more than the actual fight?

[00:48:48]Okay.

[00:48:49]>> No, it it was it was all >> excuse your excitement sometimes when you when you got money on the line.

[00:48:55]>> It was it was a lot of naysayers. It really look and I also had another bet.

[00:48:58]I had, you know, I bet $100 to win 3,800. I think it was $3,800. Yeah, $3,800, which I won. is I picked certain fights to all win by finish. So, it didn't matter. So, like whether they won or whether they lo like as long as the fight finished by TKO or KO or DQ, I won.

[00:49:15]>> And so, I picked four fights in a parlay and they hit for 100 bucks, I won $3,800.

[00:49:21]>> Boom.

[00:49:21]>> So, it was Yeah, just I felt like there was certain fights in that card that were for sure going to go to a finish. I thought Michael Chandler Rule was going to go for a finish. I thought Steve Garcia and Lopez was going to go for a finish. I thought Ilia Tapora and Justin was going to go for a finish, which was scaring me when we got to round five, in between round four and five. He didn't quit on the stool. I was like, "Shit, I'm losing this parlay." Because I had that and I had Sirrogana and Alex going to a finish.

[00:49:44]>> The one that I was most worried about that would not finish or could be a lackluster fight, >> Ali. Yes, >> I was worried about that one. You know, sometimes Ali plays it safe and tries to pick you out from the outside against an awkward opponent.

[00:49:56]>> But I also felt like >> he was kind of tailor made for Ali, right? kind of awkward stationary movement and >> not fast enough.

[00:50:05]>> Yeah. And it's just like I don't want to kick a guy when he's down, but it was very obvious to me watching that fight in the first 15 seconds that there was a difference in footwork. Ali was always in position, always chambered. And um Zahabi just he's he very much just has this awkward type of footwork that I don't remember if he always did it in the past. I'm assuming that's always been his style. Alidali changed his style negatively for this Omali fight, but you can only cross your feet and and run and yeah, >> do kind of zigzag movement so long without getting caught.

[00:50:38]>> Yeah, I agree. Uh, where do you put this at? For me, I put it right up there with World Cup status. I mean, I put it up there. You know, World Cup is every four years. This will never happen again. It doesn't sound like it'll ever happen again. Dana White said I can't afford it, which is funny. But um I put it as the I put it as the the highest sporting event I've ever seen in my life and I'm going to keep it there hopefully for as long as I possibly can. But I can't imagine what's going to pass it. World Cup is every four years. So they can they can try to beat themselves the time before every single time. It just so happened the World Cup is going on right now. And I feel the future of the UFC and the future of MMA is watch parties.

[00:51:13]>> Yeah. outdoor watch parties in Think about if we're the next time we go to Madison Square Garden >> and there is in Time Square, you've got a watch party >> because Madison Square Garden is sold out because Time Square is right there.

[00:51:26]Let's have the fights right there. Think about the T-Mobile Arena, right? They've got that big screen that's outside. If once they sell out the T-Mobile Arena, we do a watch party outside.

[00:51:36]>> Yeah.

[00:51:36]>> I mean, there's pool parties now that have huge screens. You do a watch party there. like you open this up to make the sport grow where people can take like if I if think about this if I go to Vegas right and I go to a there's a big pool somewhere in Vegas can't remember where they have a huge screen outside with little like wave pool kind of there for um for kids to swim if I end up having a watch party there people that couldn't go to the event now my kids can watch it and play in the pool while I watch the fights that's how we build this sport to the next level that's how you get that younger generation to start to fall in love with the young with these fighters that are coming up. That's how you get fans to follow Shauna Maui Tapora, Islam Mahachef and Alex Baha and these guys at a young age working their way up. That's how you get them because right now our generation of fighters or fans, they're getting older. We're the hardcores.

[00:52:25]They're losing a lot of the uh the not they're they're not losing the hardcores, but they're not gaining a lot of the young f uh young fans anymore because everything's on streaming. So, what can we do to make this different?

[00:52:36]Make it like a World Cup event. Make it where there's viewing parties and watch parties once you sell out the arena.

[00:52:42]Because if you look at International Fight Week, the cheapest seat is $1,300 in the nosebleleeds. I'm sorry, but the average you me like we we work hard, but I'm not I'm not going to take my family of four or five at $1,300 a piece to go watch to watch UFC where my seven-year-old daughter's probably going to fall asleep. You know what I mean?

[00:53:01]Like, it's it's just one of those things. We're not going to do it. So, do I not take my son because my wife and my family can't go? like, "Okay, wait till maybe they're older, then ticket prices go up." There's a lot surround it. What can we do to get the younger generation of fans to watch? I think watch parties are the future.

[00:53:17]>> I I I think that's a great idea or I think you're spot on with it. And I just want to go back when I was saying was it the best fight card I've ever seen? I was kind of still figuring out as you asked me that question, but I've come to the conclusion that it was. And it was already when I said it encompassed everything, but I was thinking more like moments. Uh, and what I want to get at though is the thing that made this card so special, aside from the obvious, is the impact that I think it's going to have on MMA. Not only did Trump go to that G7 summit and the rest of the leaders of the world were asking about the fights that you just don't see water cooler talk amongst world leaders like that. It had that type of impact, but think about this.

[00:53:56]It was on such a big stage and so special and monumental. It took me back to the Ultra Ultimate Fighter finale with Forest Griffin where everyone was like, "What are you doing? Are you watching this? Are you seeing what's happening right now?" That excitement that built from that Ultimate Fighter finale. The UFC just did this. They replicated that once again >> tfold with this. The world was watching.

[00:54:17]So, it did that and then going back to that Justin Gatei walk out that was so special and iconic that will never be topped ever again. And to see him come back after he was hurt with the liver shot and almost submitted and beat the hell out of Ilia Tapora in the American win, the huge underdog, the monumental upset on this stage.

[00:54:38]>> There was probably some little kid watching just like it was us watching Hoy Gracie into the octagon for the very first time and going, >> "What is this? What is jiujitsu? What is this fighting? I'm kind of into this. I think I want to go join a karate gym or try if there's if there's one of these jiu-jitsu gyms in my hometown." I promise you there were hundreds or thousands of kids that probably watched for the very first time if it was just because their parents were watching and they were young enough to see it. If it was just to see the storytelling about how America was made and where we're here 250 years later. There were kids that saw Justin Gatei win that night and were inspired. Who's this American guy that just beat this killer, the best in the world? Nobody could even touch this guy and this guy Justin Gai just did it.

[00:55:20]Dad, I think I want to go try MMA. It had both of those effects on the sport.

[00:55:24]I think as much of an investment as Dana put in on this, he's got to recoup his money for the rest of the year.

[00:55:30]>> It's going to pay out heavy dividends for a very long time now.

[00:55:33]>> I would agree with you 100%. Okay, let's wrap this up, but I want to wrap it up on Minnell Cop this weekend with Kyoji Horiguchi flyweight fight. You said off camerara beforehand you were leaning towards Manel Cop, and I'm obviously going to lean way towards Koji Horiguchi. I've I've been a big fan of Horuchi for years. I've called his fights. He was the Bellator champ. He was the Ryzen champ. But if you've ever been around him, it's he has this energy that is contagious.

[00:56:00]And everyone that talks about him in American Top Team is he's like the leader of the pack. And I guess apparently like the dorm room area at American Top Team is called Horaguchi Hall because that's basically where he lives. Like basically just lives his life in those dorm rooms there. And that's where he bunkers down and spends, you know, most of his time there when he's there at camp. The guy is just a great person, a wonderful fighter, a fantastic fighter, so fast, got so much power, great takedown defense, and really good at getting back to his feet.

[00:56:31]Do top dominant position. I feel like outside of Minnel Cop catching him in some way, some fashion, I think that it's this is going to be Kioji Horyuchi's coming out party. I think that I haven't seen the odds, but if I was an odds maker, I would have this as a pick them. It's so closely contested. I've said for a long time that Minnel Cop probably has the fastest hands in all of MMA. And then I rewatched some of Horiguchi's film to study up on this and I realized Horaguchi meets him just as fast.

[00:57:03]Different types of speed. Horaguchi is more of a blitzer, covers the distance in the center of the octagon. Manal Cop is the guy that when he gets you on that black line, he's looking to put you on the fence and that's when he explodes and takes all the risk. But he has one punch knockout power. He showed that on his last fight against Brandon Royal or one of his last fights at least.

[00:57:19]>> The last time these guys fought, this is a rematch for our viewers. These guys fought in Ryzen 2017.

[00:57:27]>> Horiguchi is only about two or three years older than Cop, but Cop was a kid.

[00:57:30]He was like 21 years old and he was a skinny kid who relied fully on athleticism. and they had some back and forth moments. Cop now is much more filled out, but he's a patient fighter.

[00:57:41]Like I watch him now and Cop doesn't throw a punch until it's a punch that can land. He doesn't enter the the the the fire until he's fainted enough and there's an opportunity to do something with it. I'm high on the progress. If you talk about who has gotten better since the first match, to me it's clearly cop.

[00:57:59]>> Yes.

[00:58:00]>> But does that not mean that Horiguchi was already at the highest level back then? He was close to it. He was that good. He's been that good for a long time. Horaguchi flyweight division probably the most well well-rounded in my mind. Cop probably the most deadly with the hands when he gets you backed up. Cop also has tremendous takedown defense. It's a pick them. It's a it's a fantastic matchup especially for the flyweights. You're going to see two of the best guys in the world in this matchup. I can't wait, man. It's a good card and a lot of great matchups. Not the big names, but if you're only tuning in for the main event, you're going to see a hell of a fight. But if you tune in for the rest of them, there's like six or seven featherweight fights riddled on this card. It's almost like a little kumate for these featherweight divisions trying to come up and make their way up there. And a bunch of good matchups. Co-main events. Ian Kudalaba versus Navajo Sterling. Navajo Sterling is that slick New Zealand striker of dreams with Israel. He's still growing in the octagon, but I've seen nothing but good stuff. He's coming off of his first finish in the UFC. Hopefully that gives him some momentum because Kudalaba, I know he's a wild striker, but this is a guy that's done the thing that I've seen time and time again where you get a striker who's been in MMA for quite a while and they all of a sudden they all of a sudden become like a grappler because they're not the faster younger guy anymore and they just want to get a hold of you and ground and pound you. And I think that's going to be the match up on this one. But yeah, if we were going to kind of make picks, as you said, you're going Horiguchi.

[00:59:21]>> I'm leaning towards Cop. That could change between now and Saturday, but that's where I'm at right now. Cop is the slight favorite at minus 165.

[00:59:28]Horuchi obviously with the win over him when he was younger. I look at this though too. People don't realize Horuchi has lost he lost to Demetrius Johnson when he was young. Very much in a somewhat similar situation. I know that they were a lot younger. DJ >> his only loss in the flyweight division by the way. His other losses were all in in bantamweight I believe. So that's that's not a bad only loss in that division.

[00:59:50]>> Exactly. And that's my point is he's been dealing with bigger guys throughout the middle of that career when he didn't when he didn't beat DJ then went up and he started fighting guys at all 35 because no one would get him at 125. Has not lost at 125 since the DJ fight 10 years ago or even longer than that. That being said, uh I'm going to lean towards Horiguchi. The power I believe is going to be in Horuchi's favor. The speed will be equal, probably pretty equal, but I think just the mindset. Horiguchi is such a smart fighter and I've seen it time and time again where he finds ways to get wins over bigger guys. So I think in this fight he he will just I think be able to outsmart Cop when it comes to the fight. Cop is a very reactive fighter like you said. He waits for him.

[01:00:32]He waits for his opponents to go now and uses his speed to his advantage. He's going to have a hard time with Horiguchi in that situation. Horuchi's so fast and if he waits too long the rounds will slip away. So, we may see a full, you know, five round, you know, uh, decision, but I would, if that's the case, Cop's going to be forced to do something sporadic to get this thing going because Horuchi's going to be able to get in and get out. Kicks, punches, he's got to respect his power, all those things. I lean towards Horuchi for that reason. Now, like you said though, this card, I've said this for the longest time. If you guys are not watching certain cards, take a look at who is on this card. Andre Feelely very rarely has a bad fight. Venicius Olivera coming up in weight from from uh from bantamweight to featherweight that making it making the making the the fight there. I'm excited to see how he is not having to cut weight anymore. Amir Haidider, okay, 11 and two, but this guy just comes forward, takes big shots, delivers big shots, but fighting Christian Rodriguez, a stud fighter. Looking forward to that fight as well. And Andre Lima versus Kevin Bah Baharos. That's going to be a damn good fight. A damn good fight. And this is like I say this all the time, like two little ferrets getting after it, man. They're just going to be one coming in, one going out, like rolling around on the ground on the feet, getting after it, knees, elbows, clenches, striking. That's what's great about watching the featherweight, the flyweight divisions. They're so fast.

[01:01:53]They're so elusive and they make things happen. When they throw, they throw with so much conviction. When something lands, it just it changes the the dynamic of the fight. I land a hard shot. Oh, wow. I didn't think I was going to get hit with that. They circle out. They change the they change the angle of it. They throw a head kick and they come back with some combinations.

[01:02:09]They fight so fast. It's just so fun to watch. And I'm going to go ahead and throw you guys on to one person down here at the very end. Uh Leavon Choco.

[01:02:17]I've called some of his fights in Bellator. Good fighter, very talented on the feet. Um he's just somebody that's he can wrestle a little bit. He chooses to stand more. He's making his uh his uh UFC debut. Good on him. Looking forward to seeing him inside the UFC.

[01:02:32]>> Yeah, I'm going to have to check him out. And you go back to that Haidider Emil versus Christian Rodriguez. That one I'm very interested in for this.

[01:02:39]Haidider Emil, he was 11 and0 and he's just a fun, crazy, wild. He's got that scrap pack type of energy type of fighter.

[01:02:46]>> And then he gets knocked out by a knee and then he loses his last fight. Now he's on the first time, he loses his first fight and then he he he's on a two-ight skid for the first time in his career after going undefeated.

[01:02:57]>> Christian Rodriguez on a two-ight skid as well. And I'm not saying necessarily that these guys are fighting for their job, but they're certainly fighting to maintain where they're at in their career trajectory of it. I mean, when when you're undefeated and now you suffer two losses in a row.

[01:03:14]>> Yeah.

[01:03:14]>> It it's it's like the world is ending.

[01:03:16]Am I am I still that guy that I thought it was? So, I think we're going to see a Haidider Mill and Rodriguez highly motivated with kind of the thought in the back of their mind, am I fighting to keep this job that I took so long to get to? So, I think that's going to be a dog fight.

[01:03:30]>> Well, we said we would only go 30 minutes and it turned out to be an hour.

[01:03:34]Never. My god, this was all your fault.

[01:03:38]>> I didn't even know how we got into that.

[01:03:39]>> No, it was great though. I had a great conversation with you, man. Always like a pleasure. We're going to do this a lot more. I just noticed that on three-punch combo, which you and I are on frequently, um these topics have come up frequently on the the illegal elbows and you know the in between round stool situation and how Justin Gatey look, the White House card. So you and I have been chatting on Three Punch Combo for those of you guys that don't know. It's a great uh platform. You guys can download the app, check it out. Three Punch Combo, it's basically like a platform.

[01:04:07]You pay $4.99 a month and then you go, you get into it and there's fighters on there just talking about fights. Not disrespectful, keeping it peaceful and I we enjoy talking to the fans and we understand the fans come on there, they're going to be respectful and we enjoy talking to them, answering their questions. You'll see a lot of fighters on there. So, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, not only is a forum that's talking MMA, but you're going to have a lot of professional fighters answering your questions. And I think that's one thing that fans really like about it.

[01:04:33]Like if you put a question out there, one or two or three professional fighters are going to come back with an answer. If it's one of us, if it's Dean Thomas, if it's Fatima Climb, it's if it's one of these fighters. Um, but also for me, the biggest thing is the positivity. I get on X or I get on one of these and I say something >> and maybe it's controversial, maybe it's not, but I know I'm going to get a couple trolls. I'm going to get a pe couple people saying some [ __ ] I just I don't read the comments. But I post something on this forum or somebody posts it and we will have a conversation back and forth and break down and dissect things just like we're doing right here on this show. So, and another thing that's good about it, if you like to bet like Josh apparently does, but he's winning a lot of money. Not a lot of us are winning that type of money. Go in there. If you pick an entire fight card correctly, you don't have to put any money down. You can win $1,000 on those fight nights with no money up front. So, check out 3PC. Uh it's a fun form to be on.

[01:05:24]>> Yeah, I would. It's Three Punch Convo, but three PC. Download the app. It's awesome, man. And uh, man, it's been a pleasure. We're going to wrap this up.

[01:05:31]And until next time, guys. Thank you guys for joining us.