Davina Smolders Co-Governance Ban In Local Councils Explained

[00:00:00]on the podcast. Four words for you. I told you so. Co-ance on steroids.

[00:00:06]Co-ance in drag. That's what's been happening. I've said so. I've said it for the last two years. And finally, the government have heard the rate payers.

[00:00:13]Finally, with an election looming and an inbox of voters saying, "Do something or you lose my vote." They've acted to Venice Moldis. The fearless, courageous Northern Council, she will join us shortly. Let's go. editor and [music] chief with Duncan Ghana >> Far North District Councelor Deina Smolders has bravely spoken out where other stays silent. She's a hero. She joins us now. Deina, good day.

[00:00:36]>> Hi. Thanks, Doug.

[00:00:37]>> Um, good news, eh? Um, the government finally seeing sense and banning and stopping this stuff.

[00:00:43]>> Oh, absolutely delighted. It's taken a while, but we finally got there and they're now doing a U-turn and they're going to change the that the M1s can't be transferred over into the new legislation. So really pleased about that.

[00:00:56]>> They they basically just they cut them dead and they they they stop them in their tracks, don't they?

[00:01:02]>> Yeah. They've left a little window of opportunity open though that they're going to make new in the planning laws, new guard rails around u voluntary ewe agreements. So that's nice. Uh so 90% stopped. Hasn't quite fixed all our problems of local reform government, but it's a it's a huge step forward. So really delighted. So, how how will Ebie react to this then? How they're going to be pretty annoyed, aren't they?

[00:01:29]>> Well, I think it's good that they uh are respected and understand that uh what the lane way is. A lot of them are about to negotiate deals and spend time and money and resources. So, it it's good that we honor them and then let them know that that's not a viable pathway anymore. their hopes. You know, you can see why you can see why some of these councils who sign up to this stuff, I mean, the councils are half the problem. They they they and the council staff, you know, they all believe in this stuff and and and they were trying to push it through, weren't they? They were trying to get it through before the legislation.

[00:02:04]>> Yes. A lot of staff were were controlling the wheel and the counselors were sitting there um with lack of information. They kept bureaucracy and finding it frustrating.

[00:02:18]So, it's good that the governments intervened and they needed to.

[00:02:21]>> Oh, they they they've been slow. I reckon they've been slow. I mean, there's there's people like yourself, Christine Rank and Luca Jensen and Man or two. I mean, but especially you.

[00:02:28]You've really fought this hard and it's come at some price, too. Right.

[00:02:32]>> Right. Well, I remember 11 months ago, Duncan, that I stood on the side of the road. I actually went up to the local signage shop, spent $500 on these signs that said, "Stop co-governance. Stop the napoui wi deal going through. It's got huge concerns and and implications for our district. And people thought I was crazy. People didn't know who I was. I wasn't a counselor. And there I was holding up this line saying, "No, we can't be doing this. It's going to stop productivity. It's going to stop the economy in its tracks."

[00:03:04]And over time, people started listening.

[00:03:07]you know, I got up a lot of um harassment and intimidation uh throughout the process, but over time people listened and they understood and it gained traction. So, I'm really delighted that 11 months down the track, we've now got the government backing that and I don't have to stand on the side of the road with a sign anymore.

[00:03:26]>> Oh, well, you're a counselor and and the um so it's 11 months, is it since you started your campaign, >> correct? Yes.

[00:03:34]>> Yeah. Yeah, it's taken them a little while to sort of wake up to it, isn't it?

[00:03:38]>> It and I wasn't a counselor at that point. I was just a random person in the community that understood what these agreements were about and decided to do something about it.

[00:03:48]>> At their worst, these agreements they were well, it's it's well, I think we called it co-governance on steroids or cogovernance and drag really, wasn't it?

[00:03:55]>> Yes. Yep. They were seeding sovereignty.

[00:03:57]They were fetching money. They were signing us up to huge amounts of uh money. They had a a pathway for land transfers. They were employing only WI commissioners. So they had control of all our planning. As I said, if you shift dirt, you can get approval from the EWI. So there were a whole lot of clauses in there that I don't think that the regular public understood on what they actually want. I agree and rate payers I thought were largely flying blind you know if it wasn't for people like you they wouldn't have known anything and because rate payers are largely disengaged with council so that's how council gets away with this sort of thing oh that's right people are not too fussed on councils however there's now a huge appetite the country is waking up they're realizing that rates is a significant portion of their weekly expenses and they're seeing what they're not ing for it. And so that's why we need to have absolute radical reform. And I've actually architected an entire system on how local government could run.

[00:05:07]>> I've seen that before we get to that.

[00:05:09]And I and I will get to that. Promise we'll get to that. The um Chris Hipkins says that this will um this will mean litigation that that the EW will litigate, take this through the courts.

[00:05:18]It sort of opens up a wounds and all sorts of things. What do you say to that?

[00:05:22]Uh I've had law lawyers look over it and I think we we're standing on solid ground and I I would encourage uh EWI to keep your resources and your time and your effort on in increasing productivity where it matters and that would not be the path to do that.

[00:05:41]>> What's been the reaction from the count from the MAI council that sit around the table with you?

[00:05:47]Uh, a few of them have come out publicly and said, "We're just going to ignore it."

[00:05:54]>> That's a finger in the government's face, isn't it?

[00:05:56]>> It is. And I'll wait till I attend in chambers tomorrow to see the rest of the reaction.

[00:06:01]>> Well, they're thumbming their That means they'll be thumbming their um thumbming their their nose at the at the at the new the new regime at the at the new sort of default setting, which is don't carry them on. It's a waste of time.

[00:06:12]They won't be recognized.

[00:06:14]>> Yes.

[00:06:15]Yeah. So what's the answer then? How do we approach this now? How do we how do we give you know MAI say and how do we do all this stuff correctly? Uh and so we can move on as you know one people and all that sort of thing together and be be productive in our own regions. How how do we do this without having courts and everything come on over the top of us?

[00:06:33]>> Right. Well, I think that council should represent communities and not try and run billion-dollar infrastructure businesses because running uh water networks, roads and wastewater is for the engineering profession, not a political profession. So, I think we need an entire overhaul of what council looks like, what council should do and what doorways are open for WWI with council. And I think if we separate those jobs from the community localist looking after your local museum, parks, libraries, things like that, let the infrastructure specialists deliver to the national standards. We'll get lower costs. We'll get better productivity and we'll ultimately get lower rates.

[00:07:20]>> Well, we need to simplify, don't I mean, I know you've you've you've come up with your radical local governance change and productivity uplifters logic thing.

[00:07:28]We've got to simplify this. We we've got to we councils have become all things to all people and we simply it's unaffordable. It's not sustainable.

[00:07:36]>> That's right. Yep. Every dollar wasted in bureaucracy is another dollar that should be spent on a pipe, a path or a a pothole.

[00:07:44]>> Yep. So, how would you look at it? How do you approach it?

[00:07:48]So, oh, good question. So, there's >> good question.

[00:07:54]>> It is and and I'm going to race to my notes because you've got exclusivity and hot off the press around the state in terms of um >> Well, you come with a you come with problem and solution. The problem was the past. Now, here's your solution.

[00:08:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Let Well, that's what happened with the unelected members voting rights. As soon as we knocked that on the head, straight to knock that on the head. So now we're talking about the logic system and everyone receives an infrastructure bill.

[00:08:23]So if you connect to water, you pay a water. If you um use a road or the waste services or a public space, you pay a small levy for each one. And there's no hidden sub uh subsidies.

[00:08:43]So, for example, if you're on a rural property, uh, today farmer might have the million dollars worth of property and because rates are tied to land value, they can pay enormous rates, yet they have no water, no sewage, no road pipes, and they use very few council services.

[00:09:03]>> I pay rates and I've got I've got a my sew my sewer is in the garden. My water comes off the roof. I got no foot paths >> and I pay for the rubbish bags.

[00:09:14]>> Right. So under the logic system, if you don't receive a water service, you don't pay a water levy. If you have your own septic system, you don't pay wastewater charges. Instead, you only contribute to the infrastructure that you actually use. So in terms of a business, so today council are charging businesses much higher rates simply because they're a a business. With logic, we understand that infrastructure um is what the business actually consumes. So if a restaurant say for example uses lots of water, they'll pay higher in the water area. A software company may use very little water. So, it's not that it's commercial where we just throw some amount at you. It depends on what you use. And that's the same with housing development for residential houses, too.

[00:10:08]>> We've misused the RMA, right? The RMA has been misused as a sort of a a levy gathering um um barrier to to to progress.

[00:10:18]>> Yes. under the um 58 L to 58U for those people out there that like to know the exact uh it's opened a side door and it's made councils into houses. They've given WI the front door key have come in and got exclusive rights to the bedrooms. They've put themselves in charge of the renovation committee and the rate payers are stuck with mortgage.

[00:10:46]>> Well, they got veto rights almost, haven't they?

[00:10:49]H. So what I heard national say is, "Oh, we will change the locks to the door in 6 months time. We've called the locksmith."

[00:10:59]And the act party is saying, "No, no, no, no, no. Take the house away. Let's start with a whole new house."

[00:11:05]>> The locksmith. You get lockwood. I mean, we don't want locksmiths. You need you need a you need you need to bury this thing. I mean, if you if they're going to change the locksmith Oh, who's hiding inside?

[00:11:16]>> Yeah. And and I don't know where New Zealand First is, Duncan. I think they're standing at the letter box waving cars past saying no, nothing to see here. But actually, at the end of the day, all three parties have turned up and said we need to change the house.

[00:11:31]>> We've left um like constitutional reform around the treaty, everything. We've left it in the hands of underqualified council staff who interpret it their own way and they're all in favor of you know nodding to the local E and everything and it's just got out of control.

[00:11:48]it is, but there is a solution and if the coalition gets in in the next round um I'm sure we will at pace make changes and I think one of the big things Duncan isn't just the RMA or the resource management act or the local government that LGA it's the Wang Edge tribunal.

[00:12:08]So there's a lots of little different jigsaw pieces and puzzles that need to be sorted and yeah the ACT party's up for it. You see this needs to be done at pace. You deal with national here. I mean, but my view is they're only doing this because there's an election in a few weeks done in a few months time. I mean, let's be honest. I mean, they they've got lots of emails coming in saying, "Hey, that dean is right." Um, I saw her on the podcast, whatever. And um, so National starting to get an email campaign against them. So, they shut themselves and they're changing they're changing things now at the 11th hour.

[00:12:39]>> Yes, they've had 600 and something days indeed. But, we got there in the end.

[00:12:44]>> Yeah. that they ignored it for too long.

[00:12:46]So, and they let they let they've actually opened themselves up potentially to all sorts of legal action potentially. I don't know how that's going to work, but um you're going to get a bit of push back. I think there'll be push back on this from EWI. They'll feel I mean, they're worried about the um they were worried about the they marched to Wellington for the treaty principles bill. Check this out. You know, they've had something taken off them pretty much, haven't they?

[00:13:08]Well, they're clever and they're smart and I think they'll they'll see the voice of reason that it's better to put money and resources into other productivity to uplift the whole economy for everybody including WI and Hapu.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah.

[00:13:21]>> So, I'm hopeful.

[00:13:24]>> This is generally if they this is the one law thing working, isn't it?

[00:13:30]>> Yes. Yes. And I think there's a huge community appetite and nationwide appetite for it. So, I'm confident that we'll get there.

[00:13:38]>> I think you got a massive silent majority on your side. I mean, not everyone doesn't sort of campaign and go out there and jump on podcast and put leave comments and everything, but I think you've got a massive man massive amount of support.

[00:13:51]>> I do. I do. I have over quarter of a million viewers. So, uh people and I don't encourage them to put their hand up and and like and make comments because I understand what it's like to be battered back at.

[00:14:05]>> It's hard being you. I mean, you should be New Zealander of the year. I mean, oh, why why not?

[00:14:10]>> I mean, you won't be because But you won't be because organizations uh are so scared to acknowledge that you've done the right thing.

[00:14:18]>> Oh, thank you. Yeah. No, every time I I get a death threat or some ridiculous comment, it makes me more determined.

[00:14:26]Actually, >> death threats usually come from the death threats usually come from people that that can't even drive. I mean honestly the the number of death threats I've had over the years the police have said to me this person's in the back of New Plymouth and they got no way of getting to you mate you know so >> I think I just want to do a quick shout out to the police actually who've been absolutely fantastic.

[00:14:47]>> How often have you Mark Mitchell as well who his team have really come through and supported me through the entire 11 months. So >> how much threat have you been under? How >> how much of a threat has it been?

[00:15:00]Uh well it's hard to say on a scale of 1 to 10 because I haven't really been in that position uh previously.

[00:15:06]>> Ask you one to 10. [laughter] >> You just gave it one to 10 as on No, not even on a scale. But have you felt Have you felt like some of these threats are serious?

[00:15:18]>> None of them have come to fruition. I carry on.

[00:15:21]>> Yeah. Spoke to the mayor.

[00:15:25]>> Well, I see him most time in chambers.

[00:15:27]Yes. be interesting tomorrow, eh?

[00:15:30]>> Do I get empathy? Probably not.

[00:15:33]>> I mean, he told me to f off. I mean, it's that guy's got much empathy. I think you've done really well, Deina. I think you're you're you're a champion.

[00:15:40]You know, look, I mean, a lot of New Zealanders have relied on you to to stand up for this and this is this is your change. This is your win. This is your victory, I reckon.

[00:15:49]>> Oh, thank you, Duncan.

[00:15:50]>> Should be really proud of yourself.

[00:15:52]a well spent $500 getting those signs and standing on the side of the road 11 months ago and starting the movement. So >> yeah, well takes people it takes it takes brave, courageous people to stand up to, you know, to highlight what's happening in their backyard and you did it.

[00:16:09]>> Thanks.

[00:16:10]>> How um are you going to announce you're going to go for parliament shortly?

[00:16:15]I'm considering it >> cuz my next move around uh local government reform, I'll probably be better positioned in the government to pull those levers >> to be there, don't you?

[00:16:28]>> Yeah. So, it's not off the cards.

[00:16:31]>> You are you seriously considering it?

[00:16:35]>> I a lot of the far north district rate payers are really encouraging me to.

[00:16:40]They're saying Deina, the best thing you can do for our district is actually get to local government and pull the levers from there and that will help the economy of the far north. So, ironically, a lot of people that supported me in the councelor role are encouraging me to to head to Wellington.

[00:16:56]So, >> not the first time.

[00:16:58]>> Yeah. Well, you can always you could always announce it here.

[00:17:02]>> Oh, Duncan, [laughter] there's nothing to announce at this point. Uh, >> you better be quick though cuz these list places are filling up. I said there's a Paul Henry's there now.

[00:17:11]>> Oh, he's a rock star. He'd be great.

[00:17:13]We'll get on. Well, >> yeah. See, you're going to get >> he'll be championing it and I'll be behind doing all the all the reading and writing and uh and all the the complexities around the details. So, that'll be good. Do skin slapping and champagne drinking and >> and I'll be across the the um legislation. So, I think we'd make a great team. I look forward to meeting him this weekend, actually.

[00:17:33]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, well, well done. Um all the best from from me, you know. I think you're a champion. you've done some great work and you've been courageous and brave and you know you know I I really admire you.

[00:17:43]>> Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for listeners.

[00:17:45]>> And thank you for joining us.

[00:17:47]>> Thanks Duncan.

[00:17:48]>> That's us folks. Thank you so much uh for joining us. Thanks for the feedback.

[00:17:52]Thanks for subscribing if you can. Text my name Duncan to 3598. I'll flick your link. Sign up as I've just just told you all about it. We really need your support and we thank you for it. I mean the mainstream media just won't be doing these stories. You have seen the proof today. You have seen the proof for the last two years. I I I'm sorry if I come across as an arrogant tweet today, but I just want to ram it down people's throats that this is what we've been doing and this is what they haven't been doing. They've missed it, which means they have not backed you. They have not told you what you need to know. I think it's shameful. That's us folks.

[00:18:22]Remember, life is just rehearsal. No curtain raiser. We live in one of the best places on earth. Get out and enjoy.

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[00:18:34]>> Editorinchief with Duncan Garner.

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