Couples Working Through Intimacy Issues Couples Therapy

[00:00:00]Like, what is a wife owed?

[00:00:02]Lots of time spent together and-- - Go ahead. - Like, I don't know.

[00:00:08]Sex.

[00:00:09]- Sex. - Sex.

[00:00:11]Not like on demand, but also like-- On demand.

[00:00:14]When I want it, yeah.

[00:00:20]I don't have complicated needs.

[00:00:22]I am utterly transparent and completely communicative about what it is I want.

[00:00:26]I'm also totally consistent.

[00:00:29]I am the easiest person to deal with.

[00:00:32]- Says you. - Says me.

[00:00:34]Well, say it.

[00:00:35]What are your wishes?

[00:00:37]All I want is-- I'm trying to think of how to say it so it doesn't sound terrible.

[00:00:41]Say it terrible.

[00:00:43]So what I want is to have zero responsibility, to have all the sex I want without any work on my part of any kind.

[00:00:56]Zero work, zero thinking about it.

[00:00:59]And it has to be both spectacular and enthusiastic and genuine.

[00:01:06]But you want the birthday experience to be like that?

[00:01:12]Look, with the birthday, for example.

[00:01:14]So what happened? - She was putting in-- For you, what happened?

[00:01:17]All this effort.

[00:01:19]But the things she was doing is the things that she could only imagine I would want if she never was paying attention.

[00:01:27]For example.

[00:01:28]For example, it was going to be a costume calendar, and then it was a dominatrix.

[00:01:33]And then it was like-- she had like, it was probably a threesome.

[00:01:38]It was like stuff.

[00:01:40]- Sexual events? - Yes.

[00:01:42]But you knew about it.

[00:01:43]It wasn't a surprise.

[00:01:44]No.

[00:01:45]It wasn't a complete surprise.

[00:01:47]Part of it, she was so enthusiastic about it, she couldn't keep it to herself.

[00:01:51]You heard these potential exciting events as-- I didn't hear them as anything.

[00:01:58]I just simply observed that you're doing what you want to do for me instead of what I want you to do for me.

[00:02:08]So to get even more into the weeds-- so for example, the sexual fantasies played out would be Andy's sexual fantasies and not yours?

[00:02:17]Well, not exactly.

[00:02:18]Is that what we're saying?

[00:02:19]No, they were like her description of what mine were if you never listened to me.

[00:02:26]There were some fantasy of what you want, but it's not really hitting the mark.

[00:02:31]To begin with, they all sound like fun.

[00:02:33]There's no problem there.

[00:02:35]If it had just been a random Saturday and not your birthday also, it may have been a little more welcome.

[00:02:41]It was this pressure of-- But because it was a birthday, it felt particularly misattuned?

[00:02:49]Is that what you're saying?

[00:02:50]Yes.

[00:02:51]Every year. It's a trap.

[00:02:53]If this is it, if this is the big hurrah-- this is what I've been 25 years of being Mr. Amazing was waiting, and this was it, then no thanks.

[00:03:06]I'm just not interested.

[00:03:09]You became angry?

[00:03:11]I don't think angry.

[00:03:12]I think I'm disappointed.

[00:03:15]I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

[00:03:17]I don't know what I could do differently.

[00:03:19]You don't know what you're doing wrong?

[00:03:21]Yes.

[00:03:23]So imagine that I want her to do something differently.

[00:03:26]I could get her to do whatever I want.

[00:03:29]That's not what I want.

[00:03:30]What I want is for her to do whatever I want without me having to make it happen, to just-- you know I want a glass of water before I ask, and it's there waiting.

[00:03:42]Can I ask you something?

[00:03:44]Of course.

[00:03:45]Did you ever have anybody take care of you like that?

[00:03:47]No.

[00:03:50]That sounds really maternal.

[00:03:52]That sounds like, a mother-infant bond.

[00:03:56]Yes, we have our moments with lovers where that can happen, but I don't-- that's just what occurred to me when you were saying it.

[00:04:05]That's a pretty profound thing to say.

[00:04:07]Really?

[00:04:09]Not a fairly obvious, distracting, insignificant.

[00:04:14]I'll go with profound.

[00:04:15]What is profound about that?

[00:04:17]How is that profound?

[00:04:18]Drawing that parallel?

[00:04:21]I'm sure if you open up one of these books, it's on the first fucking page.

[00:04:25]Can we move on to something that I know that we need to discuss?

[00:04:28]Yeah.

[00:04:29]Go ahead.

[00:04:32]Our sex life.

[00:04:33]Yeah, you mentioned something about that.

[00:04:35]Can we? Yeah.

[00:04:37]I have been drinking since I was 14 years old.

[00:04:44]98% of those times, I'm probably guessing, were sex that was while I was intoxicated.

[00:04:53]So for the last year, I've been having to navigate something very new.

[00:05:01]Do you feel like where you're struggling is in getting into the sex act?

[00:05:10]Or-- I'm frustrated with myself because I don't have the drive that I used to.

[00:05:16]And it was very much something that when we started our relationship was there.

[00:05:21]So for it to not be there as much is frustrating for everyone involved.

[00:05:29]He brings it to my attention that it's always him that's initiating.

[00:05:34]How does it feel from your end?

[00:05:36]Sometimes when I'm asking the question myself, I'm like, am I not attractive enough or all these questions.

[00:05:43]Is it me or does he want to be with somebody else?

[00:05:46]That's where it goes in your mind?

[00:05:48]Yeah, you know.

[00:05:49]But just to put out a couple of thoughts, one thing is your work on, let's say, to put it simplistically, why do you need to drink to have sex?

[00:06:01]Figuring out, what are you exposing yourself to when you're having sex sober?

[00:06:10]But then I'm also thinking about the dimension that has to do with your dynamic.

[00:06:17]And probably-- I mean, again, it's something for you to do.

[00:06:22]And I know you're like, oh my God, me again.

[00:06:30]Why is it always me?

[00:06:31]Is it always me?

[00:06:32]No, it's not always you.

[00:06:34]But hold on.

[00:06:35]Before we barter, putting in a little more initiative-- initiating a little bit can go a long way.

[00:06:51]This week has been really heavy with rejection for me because I've been making a lot of efforts to try to initiate both sexual situations and just intimate situations with Natasha, and she's rejected me every single time.

[00:07:06]This is taking a lot out of me to just keep trying and just feeling so undesired.

[00:07:11]I'm just trying to figure out what will work.

[00:07:14]I don't know because my partner doesn't talk to me about her preferences.

[00:07:17]And I've asked.

[00:07:18]But right now ask.

[00:07:21]What is your preference?

[00:07:22]How would you like me to initiate sex?

[00:07:27]Josh has these moments where his desire is driving the interaction, and when he comes on to me, I'm like, yes, but I'm just not feeling aroused.

[00:07:41]I don't want her to jump on my bones.

[00:07:43]I'm just talking about just enjoying something.

[00:07:46]I don't even feel liked.

[00:07:48]I feel tolerated.

[00:07:50]I feel like a pervert.

[00:07:51]That's the energy that I'm getting.

[00:07:53]It makes me feel sometimes like, is this intentional?

[00:07:57]Are you trying to minimize me?

[00:08:00]Because I'm starting to feel that way.

[00:08:02]My emotional self is hunching.

[00:08:05]And it's like, that's not me.

[00:08:06]My natural self is confident, boisterous, and it just feels like I'm being fucking suppressed.

[00:08:13]Let's be real.

[00:08:14]As much as I deal with rejection, I'm handling it pretty fucking well.

[00:08:18]I'm frustrated.

[00:08:19]And then I'm dealing with a partner who's making me feel like my frustration is oppressing them or making them feel bad themselves.

[00:08:26]So now I have to uproot my feelings, forget about them, and then worry about her.

[00:08:31]And that happens even in conversation.

[00:08:32]So I just asked her, how do I initiate?

[00:08:34]She didn't say anything.

[00:08:35]She didn't answer that question.

[00:08:36]But let's go back to the original question.

[00:08:39]First of all, you said that the problem for you is that it's on Josh's-- I don't know what to call it-- clock?

[00:08:48]Or-- Yeah.

[00:08:50]It feels like I don't-- whether it be my body, my hormones, or whatever, that feeling for me is very few and far between.

[00:09:01]So I don't get to experience or reciprocate that.

[00:09:04]You don't get to experience your own desire?

[00:09:06]Yeah, just spontaneous-- like, I would like to have sex right now.

[00:09:09]And then being able to direct that at my partner.

[00:09:11]Even on our lonesome time, where it's like, do you pleasure yourself?

[00:09:15]We'll have that sort of thing.

[00:09:16]And it's like, no.

[00:09:18]- No? - No.

[00:09:19]Never?

[00:09:20]Not never-- extremely rarely.

[00:09:23]I'm talking about, like, I just physically don't have the desire with him, without him.

[00:09:29]It's not him.

[00:09:30]Either your libido is low or you're disconnected from it.

[00:09:33]Exactly.

[00:09:34]OK.

[00:09:35]But I'm not rejecting him.

[00:09:39]It's just that I feel like I'm-- ooh, the word betraying feels bad, but like I'm betraying myself.

[00:09:45]What would be OK for you to do together, as far as any kind of intimacy that wouldn't feel like it's an act of betrayal?

[00:09:59]Touching, making out, that sort of thing.

[00:10:02]I don't-- Do you have any suggestions?

[00:10:06]No.

[00:10:07]Try.

[00:10:13]I'm trying not to be frustrated right now, that's what I'm trying to do.

[00:10:16]Yeah.

[00:10:20]I think part of what's going on is you're so overwhelmed by the feelings that this is bringing up in you, which I understand.

[00:10:31]Rejection, frustration, and I guess some form of humiliation or feeling bad about yourself-- that those feelings get so overwhelming for you that you're not actually grasping what Natasha is saying about her experience.

[00:10:45]At this moment, no.

[00:10:46]I'm not going to lie to you, I'm not.

[00:10:48]OK.

[00:10:50]Well, I heard Natasha say that her own libido feels very elusive to her.

[00:10:56]Yeah, OK.

[00:10:57]So that's part of what you're meeting when you're trying to engage her sexually.

[00:11:02]Yeah.

[00:11:04]What I'm asking the two of you to think about is what area can you meet at somewhat in the middle between the two of you?

[00:11:16]Can we take sex off the table?

[00:11:21]I have no problem with that.

[00:11:24]It's not been an issue.

[00:11:25]Let's agree to that.

[00:11:27]And Natasha, your job is to try to find some place within yourself to initiate from-- initiate contact, initiate conversation.

[00:11:37]OK?

[00:11:38]OK.

[00:11:40]And let's see what happens.

[00:11:47]OK, great.

[00:11:48]How was it for the two of you to have this break?

[00:11:52]Oh, it was good.

[00:11:53]It was really lovely.

[00:11:54]It was good.

[00:11:56]Yeah, we had our one-year wedding anniversary.

[00:11:59]We hiked the Smoky Mountains.

[00:12:01]Wow.

[00:12:02]And then-- We almost died.

[00:12:05]The weather?

[00:12:06]It was hot, and it was raining when we first got there.

[00:12:09]Yeah, it was raining.

[00:12:12]Oh, you need more space?

[00:12:14]OK.

[00:12:15]Like, why are you nervous?

[00:12:17]You had a good time?

[00:12:19]Yeah.

[00:12:21]And then we encountered a bear.

[00:12:24]What?

[00:12:25]Yes.

[00:12:27]Pretty close.

[00:12:28]It was scary.

[00:12:30]What'd you do?

[00:12:32]He tried yelling at it, and it was still following us.

[00:12:36]And we just backed up away, trying not to run.

[00:12:39]It was definitely an adventure.

[00:12:43]How else are the two of you?

[00:12:47][LAUGHING] Why do you not want to say more?

[00:12:53]Why are you embarrassed?

[00:12:58]So there was a change, and we finally had sex.

[00:13:05]Yay.

[00:13:07]Why are you laughing?

[00:13:10]Well, because it's funny to me that you went along with it.

[00:13:15]On vacation?

[00:13:16]Yeah.

[00:13:17]And normally she wouldn't in a public setting.

[00:13:24]But you said that was one of your kicks.

[00:13:27]Yes.

[00:13:29]We were just having such a wonderful time during the week.

[00:13:32]And I thought to myself, well, I did say I'm going to initiate more in some way.

[00:13:39]And we went through this beautiful spa where you soak in a tub in a private area, and it just felt like an appropriate time.

[00:13:50]Can you say something about what made it possible for you?

[00:13:54]Even the bear encounter, he was actually-- like, I felt like he was brave.

[00:14:00]He tried yelling at it, and he had me stay back and went ahead and tried to-- not that he was going to fight the bear, but he wasn't running from it.

[00:14:10]He was trying to see whatever he could do about it.

[00:14:13]And I felt protected.

[00:14:15]And I felt like I could rely on him.

[00:14:18]And at home, I don't get to see more of that because I feel like I run a lot of the things that happen at home.

[00:14:25]But that, we've discovered, is not so great for the two of you.

[00:14:29]Right.

[00:14:30]But then when we came back home, we got intimate again.

[00:14:36]And I was thinking to myself, oh, has there been a breakthrough?

[00:14:40]Is this something that's constant?

[00:14:42]Do you have any thoughts on this, Rex?

[00:14:45]I don't know if it's just the natural high of the week because the day we came back was our actual wedding anniversary, so that still plays into why we got intimate the night of.

[00:15:01]Anyone would still be worried.

[00:15:03]Like, would it go back to how it was?

[00:15:08]Because there's no bear chasing after us, with me with a walking stick and a pepper spray in one hand.

[00:15:17]But even when he came back, it was the ride of the momentum of the week, but he also cooked for me that night.

[00:15:25]That probably had something to do.

[00:15:28]It did something.

[00:15:30]But it sounds like we know what that something is.

[00:15:35]You're taking more initiative, and you're making room and then being courageous as far as overcoming your inhibitions.

[00:15:46]It also helped that we started praying for each other at night.

[00:15:52]Praying for each other.

[00:15:54]We would just face each other in bed, hold hands, and close our eyes and take turns.

[00:16:02]It's like the first time in the day I get to hear what's in his heart and what he's thinking about today, and he hopes for in the future.

[00:16:13]We made it a year, and I love you very much.

[00:16:18]And I don't really say that in public.

[00:16:21]Sounds like you're getting better at it.

[00:16:24]OK.

[00:16:25]Did you say that you do not or do want to talk about sex?

[00:16:29]Oh.

[00:16:31]Oh, I'm not opposed to anything at this point.

[00:16:33]OK.

[00:16:34]And you?

[00:16:35]It's part of the conversation, so it's silly to avoid it.

[00:16:38]So how are the two of you doing?

[00:16:40]Are you-- We're not intimate.

[00:16:42]Not intimate at all?

[00:16:44]Not for a while.

[00:16:45]Oh my God.

[00:16:46]Oh my God, I'm having a heart-- now I'm having, yeah.

[00:16:49]No, I mean, I'm just going-- oh my God.

[00:16:51]Oh my God what?

[00:16:52]Oh my God, we're not.

[00:16:54]We're not.

[00:16:56]OK.

[00:16:57]Does one of you want more than the other?

[00:17:00]Me, all the time.

[00:17:02]All right, so you're holding the flame.

[00:17:04]And you?

[00:17:05]Do you want to get sexually involved with each other again?

[00:17:08]Yeah.

[00:17:11]What would be the best way for that to happen?

[00:17:16]For me, it's calmness and kindness.

[00:17:20]The two words that come to mind.

[00:17:21]When we're screaming and yelling and screaming at each other, there's no desire to want to be physical.

[00:17:27]Maybe I bruise easier.

[00:17:29]When it comes to verbal attack, I'm going to remember things.

[00:17:32]And maybe you don't.

[00:17:33]If I scream at you, maybe you don't.

[00:17:34]I don't know, but-- But you do.

[00:17:37]You know about yourself.

[00:17:38]Yeah, I just feel like I do.

[00:17:39]And with that kind of bruising effect, I don't really want to be intimate.

[00:17:44]And last night-- again, back to last night.

[00:17:46]I didn't trigger you.

[00:17:47]Something else triggered you before.

[00:17:49]But you-- this is so sad to say, but you've become my dumping ground.

[00:17:54]And then you wonder why I'm not-- but then you wonder why I'm not intimate.

[00:17:57]But this is what you do, and this is what makes me upset.

[00:18:00]I'm turned off when you're like that.

[00:18:02]You're turned off when I'm big and explosive.

[00:18:05]I get that, but there is two dynamics here that are not working.

[00:18:11]Or a certain kind of thing that's working too well, which is that you withdraw, you approach, you punish by withdrawing, you approach with rage.

[00:18:24]It's too fixed.

[00:18:26]It works too well.

[00:18:28]Correct.

[00:18:29]We're stuck.

[00:18:30]We're stuck in a pattern that is so unhealthy for both of us.

[00:18:36]It's almost like a substitute.

[00:18:38]You're substituting the nutrients of connection, passion, pleasure with bickering.

[00:18:46]Correct.

[00:18:48]So can I task each of you-- you, Alison, with reducing or trying to eliminate the bruising.

[00:19:00]And you with increasing intimacy, both physical and verbal, emotional.

[00:19:09]I think that would do wonders, if you each take that on.

[00:19:13]I put the girls to bed, and we were like, I'm going to get dressed.

[00:19:19]And we're going to have a lovely-- - Dressed in-- - Sexy time.

[00:19:23]Sexy time. Mommy, daddy time.

[00:19:25]Mommy, daddy time.

[00:19:26]And I was stoked.

[00:19:28]And she's like, don't fall asleep.

[00:19:29]And I was like, I'm not going to fall asleep.

[00:19:30]Like, I'm excited. Let's do this.

[00:19:32]I was tired, but I was like, OK.

[00:19:34]Don't fall asleep, don't fall asleep.

[00:19:37]And then next thing I know, Sienna's like, what are you doing?

[00:19:41]And I was like, I'm so sorry.

[00:19:43]Like, I'm excited, let's do this.

[00:19:44]And she's like, it's done.

[00:19:47]The moment is gone, and I'm upset.

[00:19:49]And I know why she was upset, and justifiably so.

[00:19:53]It felt so much like evidence that I'm not as important to him, by sheer fact that he couldn't even stay awake to fuck me.

[00:20:07]And for these cuddles, he would move heaven and Earth.

[00:20:12]Can I just ask, what's your feeling when you hear this, about this comparison?

[00:20:19]Like, she knows that she's in New York, and I'm alone with the girls.

[00:20:22]And I'm cleaning and I'm taking care of them, All reasons to be tired.

[00:20:25]And working and all that, so I legitimately am very tired.

[00:20:30]Regardless of that, I knew how critical and important me not falling asleep this one time was.

[00:20:37]So why the fuck could I not stay awake?

[00:20:40]OK, but forget about whether it's a bad thing to do.

[00:20:44]Let's just try to understand it.

[00:20:46]You're saying the expectation feels big.

[00:20:48]Yes.

[00:20:50]But good.

[00:20:51]I wanted to fuck, sorry.

[00:20:52]But it's also Sienna's expectations are really important, meaning you're very powerful.

[00:21:00]Yes.

[00:21:03]Yes.

[00:21:07]Because the way I framed it, I'm like, this is a big fucking deal.

[00:21:09]But is it a big deal to you?

[00:21:11]When someone is so powerful in that moment, that's no longer the question.

[00:21:19]What's the question?

[00:21:22]Can I supply what this powerful woman wants from me?

[00:21:29]Shit, I can supply it.

[00:21:31]You know what?

[00:21:32]Go somewhere else with that.

[00:21:34]Go somewhere else with all that.

[00:21:37]Sorry, it was just hanging there.

[00:21:39]I have a lot of expectations.

[00:21:41]As someone's wife, I am owed things.

[00:21:44]Like?

[00:21:46]What is a wife owed?

[00:21:47]Lots of time spent together.

[00:21:49]And-- Go ahead.

[00:21:53]Like, I don't know.

[00:21:54]Keep going.

[00:21:55]Sex.

[00:21:56]Sex.

[00:21:57]Not like on demand, but also, like-- On demand.

[00:22:00]When I want it, yeah.

[00:22:02]What built up to this was after the last session, she did go out on Friday.

[00:22:07]I canceled my appointment, and she went out, had a good time, felt good.

[00:22:12]First of all, great.

[00:22:13]You did it, you did the homework.

[00:22:14]I had a really good time.

[00:22:16]I had a really good time.

[00:22:17]And then for some days there, she wasn't imposing her desire to be intimate with me on me.

[00:22:25]But then the next day, she's like, let me put on this night dress that she puts on.

[00:22:31]Oh Lord, with this night dress.

[00:22:32]I'm just saying.

[00:22:33]She was like, why aren't we having sex?

[00:22:36]And I was like, well, because we don't want to continue on in the same cycle.

[00:22:40]I don't want to lead you on while I'm on this quest to honor myself and my desires.

[00:22:45]And I don't want to just have sex because you're asking me to.

[00:22:48]Does that make sense to you?

[00:22:50]Sure.

[00:22:52]But can we be going through this and still be intimate with each other?

[00:22:59]Like, we don't have to stop having sex with each other to fix things.

[00:23:06]Right?

[00:23:07]You're asking as a rule?

[00:23:08]I'm asking you.

[00:23:10]There's no rules.

[00:23:11]But when the spirit moves us, if it is-- the spirit is always moving me.

[00:23:17]I'm never not in the mood.

[00:23:18]If the spirit moves her-- Is there a reason not to?

[00:23:23]What do you think?

[00:23:26]I think it would enter us back into the cycle.

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