Same faces, same failures: Burnham’s reshuffle solves nothing | The Daily T

[00:00:00]It's like a desperate game of musical chairs. The same faces just in different seats.

[00:00:05]>> As the country crashes and burns, we dissect Andy Burnham's cabinet of mediocrity.

[00:00:10]>> The Labour Party doesn't care about you.

[00:00:13][music] >> Yeah.

[00:00:14]>> At all.

[00:00:15]>> You've had no agency in it. So why should you care?

[00:00:18]>> This is a conversation within the Labor Party within a party exactly like the Tories that is undergoing a nervous breakdown.

[00:00:27]>> Yes. And they have persuaded themselves much [music] as the Tories did with Boris and then Liz. They persuaded themselves that actually this is not blind panic. We we we had just forgotten that we love this guy.

[00:00:40]>> Yeah.

[00:00:40]>> And we'd forgotten that there's this list of policies that we always really wanted to do and now we're going to do them. So it's a reset.

[00:00:46]>> Tim, we're back in the studio after yesterday's fashion show. I'm proud of us. I thought we look great.

[00:00:50]>> I think you look amazing.

[00:00:52]>> I notic no one was watching Burnham.

[00:00:54]>> No.

[00:00:54]>> All eyes are on us. They're watching you in your olive green jumper. [laughter] Um, >> don't you think that Mrs. Burnham looks uncannily like Vivian Westwood?

[00:01:05]>> Yes.

[00:01:06]>> And she got a bit of stick for her Victoria Beckham dress.

[00:01:09]>> I like the color of it.

[00:01:11]>> Yes.

[00:01:12]>> Did it work? Did they both work? So, he got stick because he did up both of the buttons on his suit jacket. What's the protocol on suit?

[00:01:19]>> I have I have leed never to comment on how women dress.

[00:01:22]>> Good idea. So, but I'm very happy to be a complete cow about how men dress.

[00:01:27]>> Go on then.

[00:01:28]>> And that jacket was simply too small for him. Yes, >> it was about one size too small.

[00:01:34]>> And it's difficult to keep a track of these things. I make errors, too. But the what you should never really do is one button, >> which is what he was doing.

[00:01:43]>> Oh, he did one button, not two buttons.

[00:01:44]>> Well, sometimes he was one, sometimes he was two. If it's too small, it's too small. You're going to look like a bag of potatoes, whatever you do. But if you do one button, it always looks like the jacket has been pulled together by a piece of string around the middle of you and you sort of the tummy comes out and the chest comes out. But he also did two and that's when it starts to look like a straight jacket. But either way, uh the man >> just cannot wear a suit. But then I guess that's part of his image, isn't it? That I'm not comfortable in a suit.

[00:02:13]I'd feel more comfortable if I was wearing a black plastic bag.

[00:02:15]>> Yes, that's right. But do we don't ever want to see him in like an Everton shirt, though, do we? I mean, >> no. Thereal standards to be upheld here.

[00:02:22]>> There are. Yes.

[00:02:23]>> Um it reminds me I say sunnac because sunnac was always in his younger brother's trousers, wasn't he? There was [laughter] just like he was dressed by mother care, right? He >> literally just go to Savo and just get a suit that fits.

[00:02:36]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:02:37]>> Um but let's have a look at the new cabinet. Okay. Well, nobody predicted John Healey as Chancellor of the Exeer, did they?

[00:02:45]>> But I'm not sure that's true. They've been talking about John Healey becoming chancellor of the exchaer for ever since Kiama entered office.

[00:02:52]>> That's true.

[00:02:52]>> They haven't mentioned in the last few weeks, but that's cuz he quit. Uh we should remind everyone he was secretary of state for defense. He resigned from Karma's cabinet in protest at the underfunding of defense. And that's one of the things that triggered Andy Bernham becoming leader.

[00:03:07]>> Yes.

[00:03:07]>> Uh so >> the resignation. So he's being rewarded for his resignation, but at the same time being told by the new prime minister, >> you want to prioritize warfare over welfare.

[00:03:18]>> Good luck with that. You make the spending cuts to pay for defense. And then we'll have the public blame you for it.

[00:03:23]>> This is the interesting thing. What will happen? A Healey enters offices and says, "Right, here's the money for defense." Although Dan Jarvis, who previously was defense secretary, has already got a bit of it. But he might come in and just say, "Okay, we're going to do the whole rearmment of Britain thing and where hey, everyone will be happy." Or he comes in and as you say, his appointment is actually used as cover for him not raising defense because if they are going to do it, it has to be done by taking money out of welfare. And we're still not sure if Andy Burnham is able to command the PLP in a way that of course gest could.

[00:03:57]>> No. Although he's kept Pat McFaden at welfare, which is significant after the revelation in the Mandlesson files that Mcfden was getting increasingly frustrated with the idea of taxing people more to pay for benefits. Yes. So it's almost more interesting who he's retained in cabinet than who he has brought in.

[00:04:13]>> And yeah, and if you think this stuff matters, as we will see with the other appointments, you could argue this has been a win for Blue Labor. Yes, >> if you think blue labor is patriotic, fiscally conservative, then Healey's appointment points us in that direction.

[00:04:29]Now, interestingly, an MP told you uh after Kama left that his wife was taking him away to get drunk or words to that effect.

[00:04:38]>> That's right.

[00:04:38]>> That's exactly what happened.

[00:04:40]>> Actually used the P word. [laughter] That's a swear word involved. They were off to get >> They went to the Pineapple Pub and Rachel Ree was also uh photographed drinking >> and smiling.

[00:04:49]>> And smiling.

[00:04:49]>> She's never looked happier. Yes. And Darren Jones posed with a pipe by himself, I noted.

[00:04:55]>> See you in September. I mean, I know recess goes over summer, but perhaps your constituents wouldn't mind you doing a bit of work for the next six weeks. I mean, you're not a school teacher.

[00:05:03]>> As Patrick Maguire said on News Night, u Kstarma never really had a faction, but now he does.

[00:05:10]>> Yes, >> it's the people who just got sacked. And according to Maguire, one thing they were saying was how predictable that Burnham replaces Rachel Reeves with a man.

[00:05:24]>> Now the rest of us don't give a hoot what the gender of the child of the exjecker is, >> provided they can count >> and provided they know they know themselves what gender they are. But in Laborland, this is being interpreted as a step backwards that you've replaced Rachel with.

[00:05:44]>> You know what? This is such Jess Phillipsism.

[00:05:47]>> You know, we must have a quot of women.

[00:05:50]Just appoint women if they're good.

[00:05:52]>> I can't bear this as a woman. I mean, I'm sure of my own gender, just in case you were in any doubt of my certainty about women and their ability or not to have penises. Somebody pointed out, "It's a good thing David Lamb's got some more time on his hands. He's now got some time to grow a cervix. and we look forward to him sharing his ultrasound scans when the time comes. But I just don't promote people for promotion's sake because you're ticking boxes. It's just so insulting. Yeah.

[00:06:16]>> Talking about continuity star obviously Shabbana Mahmood not becoming chancellor staying at the home office. Again, it's a good idea because she's doing quite well there. Yes. She's coming up with quite strong measures that Labour backbenches don't like, but they're finding it difficult to criticize her because she is herself from an immigrant family and a Muslim. Correct. And therefore the optics of it, if we can talk in political language, which we must, it it looks good. And again, it's a blue labor appointment because >> her biggest fan is Morris Glassman, who is the Labour peer that's kind of running that can we all be a bit more sensible movement. So that's good.

[00:06:55]>> Yes. She was rumored to be tipped for chancellor but is supposed to have said no I want to stay on as home secretary in order to see through my reforms.

[00:07:02]>> Iette Cooper goes to health where she was once a junior minister. By the way, John, >> she was foreign secretary now in health.

[00:07:09]>> John Healey, somebody pointed out, was in the Treasury for 5 years leading up to 2008, the global financial crash.

[00:07:15]>> Whether that will blot his copy book or not, no one knows.

[00:07:18]>> Yeah.

[00:07:19]>> Um we've talked about Mcfaden remaining at work in pensions. Bridget Phillipsson out as education secretary replaced by Lucy Powell. Yes. Who also beat her to the deputy labor leadership which was a sign that the starites were increasingly in the minority. That's going to hurt. I mean British >> clearly a reward for Lucy Powell's support for he simply wouldn't be where he is without Lucy Powell cheering him on but also helping to persuade the NEC to let him run in the Makerfield bi-election.

[00:07:50]>> Less wellknown is Louise Hey. She's known for being quotes a convicted fraudster. Yeah.

[00:07:56]>> Because there was this episode when she was once not in politics where she claimed that a phone that had been stolen perhaps wasn't. Yes.

[00:08:04]>> So everyone >> It wasn't.

[00:08:06]>> No, >> she filed a police report saying a phone had been taken and then she found the phone. It was a false police report and Karma sacked her and now she's back in government and she's technically someone uh who was found guilty of filing a false police report.

[00:08:21]>> Sure. And uh it's been pointed out that if people are going to keep on talking about George Kotrrell, posh George as a convicted criminal, Yeah. they need to do the same when it comes to the new chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster.

[00:08:32]>> Although George Cotrol was offering to launder millions of dollars for drug dealers, not just misreporting that a I don't know Motorola phone had gone missing. I appreciate it's in a different league.

[00:08:46]>> The scale is in a different league, but also all of this talk about Nigel Barrett. I mean, unlike these two who have been convicted of something, Nigel Farad remains under investigation, but as far as I can tell, hasn't been inside a court of law for anything. I'm just making that point. Second of all, Heg is in charge of propriety and ethics now.

[00:09:04]>> Yes, that is problematic. Yeah. A lot for a lot of people, Hey will be known only for the uh for the being a convicted fraudster.

[00:09:13]>> Yes.

[00:09:13]>> Um and >> and for once having pink hair.

[00:09:15]>> And I was about to say and for having Coronation Street hair.

[00:09:18]>> Yes. Uh but uh we are told we are assured there is a brain underneath that.

[00:09:22]>> Well, somebody said she was the smartest woman in the room and then somebody else this morning said, "Well, I've been in a room with her and she isn't."

[00:09:28]>> So, the jury's out on that. I played football with her. Got on with her very well. She's a nice woman.

[00:09:32]>> But she she is supposedly the intellectual architect of Bernimism, which is why she's been given uh the very important job of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

[00:09:41]>> Poor old James Murray's out. My old friend Steve Reed is out. All of these old faces are out. Let's talk about your bestie where streeting >> now. He hasn't got the chancellorship even though he wanted it. He lended those 81 votes to Andy Burnham to secure Andy Burnham's coronation and he's been rewarded with defense secretary. Now I don't know whether Wes Streeting and Defense Secretary is the right fit. I think that you do need to have somebody who once served in the armed forces.

[00:10:13]They had Dan Jarvis quite kind of personable sort of the kind of man that looks comfortable a top a tank military >> ex-military and he had accepted that he'd have to push forward the defense spending as had been agreed by Starmer >> he's out and streeting I I just think that's a really bizarre department to give him >> well the criticism has been made by Ben Wallace that quote removing Dan Jarvis to find a spot for streeting shows a contempt for defense at a time they need continuity and someone who understands the new way of warfare and the men and women of the armed forces. Defense I is as important in the Tory imagination as health is in the labor imagination. Yes.

[00:10:50]>> And it is really a character post. It's one where you expect it either to go to someone who is from the military or someone of real stature publicly who will be dealing with some of the toughest people uh in Britain to deal with the armed forces. you know, you've got to sit down with generals and air force marshals thing and things and budgets, etc. So, it's it's a and it's a it's a job which also requires you to be on top of a vast amount of complex technical information as well. Now, I'm not saying West Streeting doesn't have the intellect necessarily to do that.

[00:11:25]Uh, but he has only been a government minister for two years at health. His career before that is entirely in politics and he has always struck me as an overpromoted student activist. Yes.

[00:11:37]>> Um I don't I've never understood the appeal. Right-wingers like him because they think he's a bit blare right or something. I don't know. Um but I I understand why some people are uncomfortable. What you always have to ask yourself is can you imagine them standing on a nuclear submarine?

[00:11:54]>> No.

[00:11:55]>> No.

[00:11:55]>> No.

[00:11:56]>> I mean Penny Mortant >> Oh gosh. You could imagine her being launched on a weapon [laughter] >> just s straddling it.

[00:12:06]>> Yes, exactly. Or Mark Francois, you can imagine him pressing the button in a nuclear submarine. But I I understand why people are are uncomfortable with the appointment of West Streeting. Now, the story of his appointment is fascinating because >> uh in the morning I was told he had been seen until quite late in the day wandering around in a t-shirt. Yes, he was in a t-shirt in Port Cullis house at around I sound like I'm >> like you're stalking him >> like a stalking him or b doing kind of human cludo with politicians. [laughter] He was in PCH dining room in a t-shirt at around [clears throat] 132ish because I was having a good old chinwag with some of my lefty mates. They do exist.

[00:12:46]>> And he then put on a suit cuz he was spotted later on in PCH in a suit presumably waiting for the call to go to number 10.

[00:12:52]>> But it was a late call. He was one of the last one in.

[00:12:54]>> Yeah. Does that mean somebody rejected defense and he got it as a kind of sloppy seconds?

[00:12:59]>> Well, it has been it has been suggested that Rachel Reeves was offered defense.

[00:13:04]>> What?

[00:13:05]>> Which if nothing else, it speaks to Burnham not taking the portfolio very seriously.

[00:13:10]>> Well, isn't she a bit too lacrimos for defense? You know, Putin starts being horrible and she's >> I think she's going to burst into tears.

[00:13:17]>> I tell you what, actually, streeting's appointment reminds me of the inappropriateness of Gavin Williamson in that role. remember saying to Putin, "Shut up and go home."

[00:13:25]>> Yeah, why don't you just shut up? Why don't you just shut up and go home? Oh, it was dreadful.

[00:13:30]>> He's like, "Well, Putin hasn't left his home in years." I think, >> for those who forget, can't leave Russia.

[00:13:34]>> That's the the creepy weirdo with the tarantula.

[00:13:36]>> Yeah, that's right. Um, let's talk about Ed Milliband. Now, first of all, I'd like to give you some breaking news.

[00:13:42]>> I am told that his brother, David Milliband, who one could arguably say is more suited to the role of foreign secretary because he's a used to be one. David Miband apparently, despite all of the rumors in the media, was not once approached by Andy Bernham's team to serve, even though he was willing to serve. Just lock that in the old Stanley brain.

[00:14:05]>> Second of all, >> now it looks as if Ed Milliband has been given a very important role in government, but has he?

[00:14:12]>> So, he's leaving energy. Yes.

[00:14:14]>> Where he was Mr. renewables and was arguably one of the most effective and radical ministers in the Star government and moving up it looks like to one of the top three positions in government.

[00:14:26]>> I'm told not quite. I'm told he's going to be given a John Kerryesque role to be kind of the UK's representative for climate change going across the world and speaking to people who are interested in that kind of stuff which by the way excludes Donald Trump and the entire Trump administration.

[00:14:43]>> Yeah. And that the person who's really going to be doing the heavy lifting on foreign policy, including our relationship with Europe, is Hamish Forner, who is a junior minister to Ed Miband. And Forner's role is going to be intergovernmental because his position is also straddling the very important cabinet office, which is the nuts andbolts department of Downing Street.

[00:15:06]And incidentally, he's going to be sharing an office with Anelise Mijley, who is the new chief whip, who is basically Andy Bernham's eyes and ears.

[00:15:14]So symbolically, it looks like he's given something to Ed Milliband.

[00:15:19]Actually, what he's done is sidelined him and importantly and crucially ensured that he's hardly ever in the country.

[00:15:25]>> And that's clever, isn't it? Because on the one hand, he had to reward Ed because Ed made Bernham's rise possible.

[00:15:32]On the other hand, he also doesn't want Ed controlling policy, domestic policy.

[00:15:38]So, what is the one position you can give him that ticks both those boxes?

[00:15:42]It's foreign. But then, as you say, having put him in there, you clip his wings further so that he can't actually do any diplomacy and foreign policy.

[00:15:52]>> Now, John Kerry, who looks like an animated statue of himself, >> is >> good hair though. Come on. He he does have good hair. Is officially it's it's ranked in the Guinness Book of Records the most boring man alive.

[00:16:06]>> Really? Have you heard him speak?

[00:16:08]>> Yes. I once sat in on a select committee with John Kerry. And if you could bottle that man's personality, you would eradicate insomnia as a problem.

[00:16:16]>> Really? All right. Well, we got a feature coming on. I say all of this because the comparison with John Kerry is very interesting because yes, Kerry became this one-man State Department traveling the world having conversations with activists in the Philippines or Polynesian lesbians, I don't know, flying their private jet. No doubt [laughter] by Zoom, you know, honestly.

[00:16:41]>> Um, and if you can park Ed Milliban into that role while at the same time actually getting rid of net zero, that's quite a clever trick. Let's talk about his replacement as energy secretary, Miata Fanbullah. Now, she's a less known MP very close to Burnham. Yes.

[00:16:58]>> She is treated with some suspicion by the Labour backbenches because shock horror, I think she was privately educated. I think her father was somebody quite important in the Liberian government once. Um, but she's already being blamed for this slightly bungled decision on scrapping VAT on an aspect of our winter fuel. So, >> right, >> Burnham is saying this is going to save an average household £45 a year.

[00:17:24]>> Um, the policy itself is going to cost £850 million. And Graeme Pack has crunched the numbers on this. Listen, it's not a difficult sum, but it's not one that you and I could do in our heads. Tim, no.

[00:17:34]>> Basically, families will be saving 85p a week.

[00:17:37]>> Yes.

[00:17:37]>> For 850 million.

[00:17:39]>> It's nothing. I I I'll give him It's not nothing. He said, "I'm going to give you breathing space. I'm going to help you with the cost of living." and that he is, but it is such a small amount. Yes.

[00:17:49]>> And of course, what we need is to expand our energy supply. That's what's ultimately going to drive prices down.

[00:17:55]>> BAT on business is energy 20%, even charities are charged 5%. So, it's a drop in the ocean. So, the knives are already out for her a little bit like, oh, she's, you know, not experienced enough. What's she thinking? because there seemed to be a suggestion that they'd be funding this with the money saved in inverted commas from scrapping digital ID. Darren Jones, when he's not too busy having a pint and then enjoying his summer holidays, has pointed out on X, well, there was no costsaving in scrapping digital ID because we hadn't actually rolled it out. So, where are [clears throat] you getting the money from? So, by the way, this whole kind of starite, I'm going to be very responsible. I'm not going to be that former prime minister that keeps on sticking his ore in. He might not, but you can bet your bottom dollar that his allies on the back benches are going to be needling at some of these Burnham policies because it's all very well saying I support him and yes, of course, we all want the best for Labor. It is factional. There's no doubt about it.

[00:18:49]That's what the party's like. So, of course, you're going to get sniping from the sidelines. I mean, because this is the Labor party, right?

[00:18:55]>> I mean, they're like the Tories, you know, fighting like rats in a sack.

[00:18:58]>> Yes.

[00:18:59]>> And on that note, your favorite, Angela Raina. And can we just play tribute [sighs] >> to the outfit?

[00:19:05]>> Yes.

[00:19:05]>> I tried to channel my inner Alexis Colby.

[00:19:09]>> Uhhuh.

[00:19:10]>> Okay.

[00:19:11]>> She outdid me, didn't she, yesterday, Tim?

[00:19:12]>> Yes. She walked into the party like she was walking onto a yacht.

[00:19:16]>> She had shoulder pads. She had the whole like cropped jacket, >> nice high-waisted trousers going on, bit of a flare, >> and the walk.

[00:19:24]>> The walk.

[00:19:24]>> The walk. You can't buy class like that.

[00:19:26]You can't. If I was prime minister, I would have said when she walked through the door, have whatever department you want. In fact, have mine.

[00:19:33]>> Indeed, >> be prime minister. And we could have had that as prime minister instead.

[00:19:37][laughter] We've got this we've got this retunned, boring middle-aged man whose whole thing is, I'm mad for it, and I like the 80s or whatever. I don't know.

[00:19:44]>> Well, he doesn't like the he likes New Order, but he doesn't like Margaret Thatcher. Make your mind up.

[00:19:48]>> We could have had this absolute queen >> rocking it. Again, you'd keep >> and representing us on the global stage.

[00:19:55]Speaking speaking like a sketch writer if ever there was one. You just wanted Angie there because it would make your copy more interesting. Now you've got to deal with eyelash McGraw.

[00:20:04]>> We tal we talked about Downing Street.

[00:20:06]You said Downing Street became Coronation Street. She turned it into a catwalk.

[00:20:10]>> Yes.

[00:20:10]>> Come on.

[00:20:11]>> It was like her on the way to the Rover's return for a right old sesh. Get the tequilas on the table now. I've come back. It's a comeback, folks. I am very disappointed that she wasn't given health because if that woman hasn't at some point gone to a fancy dress party dressed as a nurse I will >> Tim I thought you [laughter] were going to say if that woman hasn't been in A&E several times after a very >> just imagine her doing a tour of the wards with doctors cigarette in her hand saying what time does the bar open?

[00:20:40][laughter] Well, has there been a scrap between her and Lisa Nandandy for the department that Raina has ended up in? Because MHLG or whatever it's called, uh, Ministry of Housing, Local Government, Communities, whatever it's now called, I think that Lisa Nandi wanted to move from culture to there.

[00:21:00]>> Yes. And I think Raina having rejected health might have insisted on going back to housing because obviously if she can realize Andy Burnham's council house building dream, she's the queen of the north, right?

[00:21:14]>> She's the one who expunes extinguishes Thatch's dangerous legacy and she wants that because she wants to keep her union and lefty supporters happy. So I think there's been a scrap and I think Raina is one versus Nandandy. So Nandandy remains a culture. Let's consider in the round what's really changed here. Nandy hasn't moved. Uh Raina has been brought back to her old job.

[00:21:39]>> Yes.

[00:21:40]>> Uh very few. In fact, I can't rethink of any new faces at all.

[00:21:46]>> No, it does seem like it's moving people around.

[00:21:49]>> All he's done is he's taken the exact same people that you had under Starmmer and put them into new jobs. Okay. Some people >> a few new ones. Some people have been sacked who had to be sacked like Reeves.

[00:21:58]But really this is a a question of rearrangement of the deck chairs >> which which leaves you wondering so what is Bernimism?

[00:22:06]>> Well he even he can't define it Tim and this is the problem. My overwhelming feeling today and again being in Westminster just chatting to a couple of the security guards that work in Port Cullis house these two ladies who okay they're GB News fans they they they they possibly more rightle leaning but the general vibe was what's going on >> how can he come up with a 10-year plan without even calling a general election nobody's elected this man so it's either that or it was a degree of I saw somebody else who was like >> slightly dist from what happened in Downing Street yesterday? Like, does anyone actually care? Did anyone notice?

[00:22:43]>> So, as of midnight last night, of the top seven stories on our website, only one, which was the rolling blog, was about Andy Burnham.

[00:22:53]>> Right.

[00:22:54]>> The other six were about the football.

[00:22:56]>> Yeah.

[00:22:57]>> Donald Trump or cancer. And of the top like 30, maybe half were about Burnham.

[00:23:04]But Bernham was being beaten in some cases by our interview with a gypsy lady who is running in Clactton.

[00:23:10]>> Yes. Right.

[00:23:11]>> She's an influencer.

[00:23:12]>> She's an influencer. So, uh, >> gypsy lady. [laughter] No, she >> that is how she presents herself.

[00:23:17]>> I know. She's proudly a gypsy. It's funny how you've called a gypsy lady.

[00:23:20]>> No, I know. I know. I know. I know the acceptable term is more acceptable term is traveler, but that's how she presents herself. My point is I am convinced, this is my big theory, that no one's paying any attention to any of this, that the mood of the public right now is not is is neither delight nor horror and it actually works to the advantage of left and right to pretend it's either because you got to keep people interested in politics.

[00:23:45]>> I think most people have completely tuned out.

[00:23:47]>> So it's just meth >> and the atmosphere in the country is we are wear.

[00:23:52]>> Yes, >> we've seen this done so many times before. So, let me get this right. You didn't like your leader cuz they screwed up. So, you've kicked them out and then you've just moved some of the people around in the cabinet and you've got pretty much all the same policies you had before because you're still tied to your manifesto and your so-called radicalism is just doing what we said we would do but more so that's a repeat of Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Richie Synk that is what has happened every single time in the past decade.

[00:24:23]Well, no, cuz Truss was radical, too radical, and then got chewed up and spat out.

[00:24:28]>> Well, Truss's biggest spending thing was actually a bailout on fuel. So, she was she was on paper one of the most socialistic prime ministers we've ever had. So, I I don't buy that, I'm afraid.

[00:24:39]So, >> she'll disagree with that.

[00:24:40]>> Of course, she'll disagree with that.

[00:24:41]But my my point is that uh for most people, this is deja vu. And this is the thing you have to bear in mind. Andy Burnham's rise to power has nothing to do with you.

[00:24:54]>> The Labour Party doesn't care about you.

[00:24:58]Yeah.

[00:24:58]>> At all.

[00:25:00]>> You've had no agency in it. So why should you care?

[00:25:02]>> No. This is a conversation within the Labour Party. Yes. Within a party exactly like the Tories that is undergoing a nervous breakdown.

[00:25:12]>> Yes.

[00:25:13]>> And they have persuaded themselves much as the Tories did with Boris and then Liz. They've persuaded themselves that actually this is not blind panic. We we've we had just forgotten that we loved this guy.

[00:25:25]>> Yeah.

[00:25:25]>> And we'd forgotten that there's this list of policies that we always really wanted to do and now we're going to do them. So, it's a reset. You know, it's a reset.

[00:25:32]>> It's the ultimate reset.

[00:25:33]>> And they're telling themselves that.

[00:25:35]>> It's more of the same.

[00:25:36]>> They're telling themselves that. And because they are a cult and they're all related to each other and they're all married to each other, they they're all just talking to each other. And if they feel happy for 5 minutes, they persuade themselves that the entire country is happy because you know their history of Britain, which begins in about 1945.

[00:25:54]They don't think there was a Britain before then. Their history of Britain is everything good was done by labor.

[00:26:01]>> Yes.

[00:26:01]>> You go to schools and you have cheap bread.

[00:26:04]>> Yes.

[00:26:05]>> Because of labor.

[00:26:06]>> Yes.

[00:26:07]>> Anything bad was the Conservative Party.

[00:26:10]And that's literally their history features no culture, no sport, no music, no space race, nothing else happened in the last say hundred years except >> politics.

[00:26:20]>> And so if we can get labor right and if we can feel good about ourselves, we can put growth in every postcode and hope in every heart.

[00:26:29]>> And they're saying that and for the moment, God bless them in their strange little uh cult. They really believe this. They really believe we're all into this. But then, >> but if just you just look at our board, you look at what people are watching, you look at what people are reading, you speak to people in the street, >> look at the polls.

[00:26:47]>> No, look at the polls.

[00:26:48]>> They haven't really changed. I mean, I know we've still got some surveys to come.

[00:26:51]>> We don't have properly up to date polls yet.

[00:26:53]>> Are they going to move, Tim?

[00:26:54]>> The B the Burnham factor has been at play for about eight weeks and Labour is saying, look, we just haven't worked in the fact that Burnham has become prime minister yet. And that's true. But as I say, we've known, the public has known for a long time that Starmer is going and they have been introduced to Burnham for a long period too. And the latest polls show things more or less unchanged, things a little bit closer, but reformed just about ahead and the Tories in some cases ahead of Labor or nibbling at Labour's heels. So thus far that hasn't broken through. And again, as I say, if this was the radical reset which is supposed to be making us all so jolly excited, then you'd imagine you'd already see a bounce in the polls.

[00:27:38]>> Well, also, if Labor is so great, if if everything's going so swimmingly well, >> why yesterday did Andy Burnham call for a circuit breaker?

[00:27:49]>> Yeah, >> I need to break the circuit on the last two years of Labor to bring you more Labor. M >> and that is a point that is going to be made by our next guest because as we were walking around the newsroom this morning, we bumped into comedy legend and all round national treasure Griff Jones. Tim, the Telegraph's a funny place because you and I were just preparing to go and record this podcast and then we bumped into Griffice Jones.

[00:28:14]Yes.

[00:28:14]>> And then we said to Griff Jones, why are you here?

[00:28:16]>> How did you get into the building? and he said and then basically to cut long story short Griffin you have offered to come on to the podcast and we just took you >> I did I have to admit [laughter] it's very difficult to get into this building I had to pass through two sort of security things and get I mean I'm not saying that I know what they're raid lefties out that's >> I see is that what it is >> and and therefore we're going to accept you in before you come to talk to us about what you're writing about for the Telegraph >> what are your thoughts about all hail >> Andy Burnham I to quote, you know, time's gone by, he is the next messiah, apparently. Do you agree?

[00:28:51]>> I was I was I've always I mean, I have to admit that I think the Labour Party had gone through a strange shooting themselves in the foot. I mean, his first comment sounded as if he was taking over from a Conservative government. Yes. Uh he seemed to say, "We are making a fresh start and a new start and he felt that's a real admittance of failure." But but I I have some hopes of Andy, but I've met him a few times. Um and uh he's a he's a charmer and of course he read English literature at Cambridge like so many of us did but most from David Bedil through to Steven Fry never thought that politics was anything but a second rate way of using whatever skills he'd learned in Cambridge. But what it's a worry because with Burnham in a funny way with English literature as as any fool do know um the secret of English literature is to So, uh, if you're writing [laughter] in an exam on English literature and you sort of get asked, you know, why did why did Virginia Wolf embrace modernism in such a way, you immediately start by saying, well, that's the wrong question to ask.

[00:29:52]So, and you get points for actually challenging and and being rather sort of not so very different though from Boris Johnson and PPE, is it really in a funny sort of way? So, I wonder whether there's a link here working way out. Yeah, >> it's a good training for politics.

[00:30:08]Didn't Peter Cook say that all the people who went into politics were the people who got kicked out of footlights?

[00:30:14]>> That might be the qu that might be the case, but there were a lot of people who went over to the union and stood up there and uh >> but politicians are effectively failed actors.

[00:30:24]>> Yes, it's it's theatrics that people can't ugly and doctors too.

[00:30:28]>> Too ugly for [laughter] showers. This is the other thing, isn't it? Politics showbiz for ugly people.

[00:30:33]>> Yes. Yes. Now, you're very concerned about the fate of Liverpool Street Station.

[00:30:38]>> Tell us why.

[00:30:39]>> A while back, I was I would like to say elected, but I was just appointed president of the Victorian Society, and we became very agitated by Network Rail and its plans for uh for Liverpool Street Station. I mean, frankly, the simple truth is that I can't quite work out why the city deserves um its railway station to be completely transformed.

[00:31:02]the first I don't know if you remember Hog and Demur and put a put forward a scheme which was so so awful that everybody everybody I mean it be you know the whole world including all the burers of London you know said we can't have this so that stopped but they still trying to put uh about uh almost a million square feet almost you know 20 stories of office block bang on the top of Liverpool Street Station and I can't work out why the city would I The city have just passed it, but they passed 98% of of things that come before them. And it's part of their plan, as you probably aware, the city to to big up their offices. And they're not I I mean, people think they're fighting Frankfurt or New York or something, but actually they're fighting they're fighting Canary Warf. And they have built built built over the last and we've seen this wall of glass, but they really don't need to build on their heritage sites. They've got three major heritage sites. They've got they've got the Tower of London. Uh they've got uh uh uh St. Paul's and they have Liverpool Street station. And uh if you look at a sort of a model or a map of the city of London, you go, "Oh yeah, those are like three great sort of things sitting." And it's absolutely extraordinary that Network Rail should want to do this because they're claiming it's the only way they could pay for reform of the uh of the station. Uh and and you have to go.

[00:32:28]>> [laughter] >> They have a statutory duty network rail for example to put in disabled lifts. So they use disabled lifts for their PR to to so we have to ask ourselves what are they trying to achieve? What are they doing with this very I mean I'm not going to say it's dodgy. I'm just saying it's already been assessed as in unviable. In other words, that the actual building itself is not going to make the money to pay for the improvements that they want. It's difficult enough to make a profit on building in the city. Very expensive.

[00:33:03]>> And how old is the station?

[00:33:04]>> The station was is a sort of 1860s station and it's a very interesting station because although they talk about a gateway to London, it's a commuter station. It was built to serve upminster and Ilford and that that's and it runs as you know out east. So it's very much my station because I'm an Essex boy. So I've always been associated with Liverpool Street station and it has a very beautiful restoration which was undertaken um at the behest of John Bcherman and Spike Milligan and others when they saved the station and they have a very very beautiful concourse and a very wide big concourse by London standards. So a lot of this is a mysterious sort of obfiscation of the truth.

[00:33:43]>> Don't you need to make a direct appeal now to our new housing secretary? She's made a comeback Angela Raina because ultimately decision-m on planning is vicariously hers I believe.

[00:33:55]>> Well, we are worried because first of all it has to go to the mayor. Now the mayor has already been advised by his own independent design committee that this is overreach there is that the justification for building this office block is not met by the needs of the station. and uh that is in black and white and has already been put before him. So there's been a bit of a pause.

[00:34:20]So we rather hope that um uh Lord Sadi as he is now but we rather hope that he thinks himself and what I really want is Lord Sadique to go into the house of man sit opposite all those other lords and those other lords ask him some pertinent questions about it and I think that's what what I really want to see happen first. I fear if it goes Angela Raina when she was housing secretary mayor she said [laughter] I don't I don't want to decide what beauty is she took out a sort of uh any sort of sense of good design out of out of planning she said I don't want any of that that's holding up growth because people are disputing it and I understand this idea that people think that it's all subjective all elitist but look at it this way you go to King's Cross, you go to St. Pancress.

[00:35:14]Great buildings saved in St. Pancress's case by the Victorian Society from being demolished. And what they did recently was take off the modern accretion that had happened, especially in King's Cross, and reveal these two huge monuments to the Victorian age. Very different stations built within 10 years of each other. And a sort of real statement of London. And I can't for the life of me see why the city of London who ought to be guardians of the city, the planning committee have have said, "Oh, we don't want anything to do with that." Tom Slay said, "We're much look at the amount amazing growth we're achieving in the city." And you go, "Well, that's that's not the point. You you have heritage there as well. It's one of the reasons why the city of London is so revered." Yes.

[00:36:01]>> And you need to be there as a planning committee to to to preserve that. and he needs to learn that otherwise we're heading for a terrible time.

[00:36:09]>> I think there's a reasonable standard of beauty that everyone can grasp. Uh and it's partly about character.

[00:36:16]>> It's not difficult, is it? I mean honestly it's not difficult to look at look at a thing and and it's about story but funnily enough the legal arguments with this particular case are so strong and there's so many questions to be asked of of legality of intent and how the um uh uh uh the the uh uh network rail are interpreting what they claim is a dictat from the department of transport which includes the idea the most bizarre idea I think I've ever read where they say we are instructed to build on Brownfield sites and we have uh determined as it were that uh Brownfield includes the airspace above any concourse we own. [laughter] Now uh you go wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute that I think a brownfield site is a sort of disused um sort of brown bit of old industrial thing but according to them no they think that the air they say if it's if it's underutilized then we need to go up and that really [clears throat] licenses a terrible uh sort of prospect for for across Britain really if they say well any any concourse could should be able to take a should be able to take a skyscraper on top of it. Yeah.

[00:37:31]>> The difficulty with the mayor is he doesn't really have and this is one of the funny things with Andy Burton.

[00:37:37]Mayers don't really have an enormous amount of power. No.

[00:37:42]>> And they are involved in acts of charisma building. you know, they spend a lot of time sort of opening things and standing around pontificating which gives them the opportunity as Andy Bernham has had to build up a sort of personality because they don't really have a huge workload and they don't really necessarily achieve very much.

[00:38:02]But Mayor Sadik has Transport for London under his control. Transport for London only owns a few sites that it can play with and one of them is Liverpool Street Station. So he has already gone down to the south of France and put his backing behind uh putting in um uh more development on top of uh Waterloo and on top of Victoria station next door to where we're >> Oh, we don't want that.

[00:38:29]>> We don't want development next door. We don't want the builders in podcast.

[00:38:33]>> What do you think about it? Do Londoners really want to see random skyscrapers popping up like the shard? you know, all on all the railway stations of London. I just think it will be a disaster.

[00:38:46]>> You already have them around Victoria.

[00:38:47]Victoria has changed a lot. It's gone from a 60s I saw to um 2010's I saw.

[00:38:52]It's like being in Dubai.

[00:38:54]>> Griff, before we let you go, um as you can tell, [laughter] otherwise I'll be here for another I just I've been involved here. I've been involved in this fight for somebody here. So, we're I just have a lot to say. No, someone's coming to escort you from the very because we've taken up enough of your time, but can can I just ask you this as a kind of I mean, can we Griff's a national treasure. We've got a national treasure in a great British institute.

[00:39:17]Thank you very much.

[00:39:18]>> In the vein of our greatest Victorian building, >> six feet down waiting for rediscovery.

[00:39:23]>> But do you because we had a very interesting day in Downing Street yesterday, Griff, we're sort of watching these historical events unfold with a degree of incredul. It all felt a little bit surreal. How are you feeling about it all? How are you feeling about seven prime ministers in 10 years and everything that's gone on? I mean, are you tearing your hair out? What?

[00:39:44]>> Well, I just think that the political classes have gone through a terrible time of not really understanding what [laughter] the ordinary person in this country sort of wants. Now, that's that I can't speak for the ordinary person because everybody all the politicians are. But in a funny sort of way, um, my reading of history is that is that prime ministers are important parts of a management system and that and that the that the messianic qualities they need to have is for good management, >> not not necessarily for for for the various missions that we keep hearing about about I mean good management is the essential quality that we look to politicians to do and and conservative and labor have been mismanaging their opportunity to to tighten up and get their management working to the best to the best degree. And and whether or not you're a fan of Mrs. Thatcher, her when they talk about her her uh her uh commitment as a commitment politician, she was a commitment to she had a commitment to um grosser shop management type beliefs and that sort of um tightened up things a bit.

[00:40:55]>> Do we think Mrs. Thatcher liked Smith and Jones? Just thinking it's the same.

[00:40:59]She did. No, no, she loved I bet she loved I bet she loved Griff with it.

[00:41:05]Exactly. But but we just finished in uh in uh uh I just finished in sorry Prime Minister which was the last play which was in the West End was great. It was a big hit.

[00:41:14]>> This is this is the sequel to Yes.

[00:41:16]>> Yes. It was the final one with the two of them sitting there sort of powerless and lots of things started happening which were re which were re relevant to the to the to the debate going on. But the the interesting element was that uh uh she at one point uh determined that she she wanted to write a sketch for it and and got the two and got Nigel Hawthorne and Paul Edington to come in and do her sketch. They said it was one of the one of the most uh embarrassing things as actors they had ever been asked to do. [laughter] >> Um Griffith Jones, thank you very much indeed for joining us unexpectedly, but you've been so welcome in the studio.

[00:41:56]Thank you so much.

[00:41:56]>> Thank you very much.

[00:41:57]>> And keep up the good fight.

[00:41:58]>> Yes, we will. We will. And I wish I hadn't said that about Mrs. Thatcher because I'll be now designated unsafe to work with by [laughter] junior actors.

[00:42:06]>> You can't be a lovey and say anything favorable about Mark.

[00:42:10]>> Well, I know but that but I I' I've read a lot of Dominic Sandbrook and I read half of saintly uh Charles Moore who I think also read English, didn't he? Cambridge. Uh uh so I read uh uh and I read half of his of his enormous volume and then I thought halfway through the the dual volumes I thought I' actually funny enough I've read enough about Mr. [laughter] really huge huge volumes. You can never read too much about Margaret in this building. I can tell we had this is what we had to do was sit down and go, "No, that's enough reading of that particular I got the idea." [laughter] >> Um Griff, thank you very much indeed.

[00:42:49]We'll let you go. Thank you.

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