Ex-Jihadist vs. Former Anti-Islam Activist - ft. Mubin Shaikh & Eric Brazau

[00:00:01]If you if you if you have military uh confrontations over decades, generationally in particular places, guess what? You're going to get radicalized people. And you don't see the level of involvement in the Middle East in particular. You don't see anywhere else.

[00:00:22]>> Right? So here in the so if we stick to Canada, United States, North you know the western civilization, we just clarified that the the nikab is mainstream Islam. So the the the idea of the nikab is to keep the woman separate from men's gaze in all respects.

[00:00:39]>> Well, Allah says in the Quran to men keep your gaze down.

[00:00:44]>> So that's so the nikab is for the woman to kind of in a sense to be erased from the public space. The early Muslims, those who veiled, for example, they they were very they were very present in society. Women's scholars would teach other men would teach men scholars.

[00:01:03]>> Would you say that wanting to live under Sharia is mainstream Islam?

[00:01:08]>> What does that mean? What does living under Sharia mean?

[00:01:11]>> Transportation, buses, separating genders, you know, all of it. I'm talking about Sharia in the public sphere where women where for example we can say under Sharia women are not encouraged to go into politics they're not encouraged to shake hands with men you could you could make that argument you could make that argument that that it's an interpretation >> in the hadith in the hadith is it not very clear that women should not be in politics >> it is not clear number one we the Sharia you don't just look at again this how can women be in politics if under Sharia you have to have segregation.

[00:01:49]>> So what I want to say is >> but every I'm not I'm not going to edit this. I'm not going to I'm just going to leave it as it is. Uh you got did you guys Google each other and stuff?

[00:02:06]>> Not much. No, I just >> I watched a couple of interviews >> and I will actually uh I will post this interview after I put out the interview with uh uh with both of you. I already released interviews with uh Eric. Uh and then after people get to know both of the guests, then I'm going to drop this bomb. Right. This is the first time I'm doing something like this, so hopefully it's going to go well. Um and I I I think this is going to be great. Just please disagree on something at least because that's usually what keeps people interested.

[00:02:41]>> Oh, I I'm [laughter] sure we will.

[00:02:44]>> Maybe you Mubin, you Google Eric. What's something that you do agree with him about?

[00:02:51]>> Oh, man. I was waiting for that cuz I was going to slam him with all the things that he's mistaken about and then turn it around and say, "Actually, I agree with." So, you know, let me just start with that. the um the so you know Eric got in trouble because he had written a poster and uh claiming to be um a reproduction of what the imam at the Toronto mosque on Dundas Street had said about purify al a from the filth of the Jews and they took him to task the police took him to task over the use of the word filth and filthy and you can't call people that and blah blah blah. But I have heard imams say that that exact thing that you were that you were reproducing, right? The this is what the word that they use purge aesh and nudes is like ritual impurity.

[00:03:55]But you can say filth, right? Because like you know poop would be nudes, right? You could say poop is filth. So he was actually right about that. That I have myself heard these imams say that.

[00:04:08]You weren't expecting that, were you, Eric?

[00:04:11]>> I'm not expecting anything either way. I mean, you've been on a journey. I've been on a journey. We're both exes.

[00:04:19]I'm an ex I'm an I'm a reformed Islamophobe and I think you are a reformed what we would call a jihadist. Correct.

[00:04:28]So, we we've both been on a journey over the last maybe 10, 12, 15 years. You were you were, I believe, at Queens Park. That might have been Well, you were at Queens Park with your wife in in in support of the uh Sharia law tribunals. That's >> right. Islamic law in arbitration. Yes.

[00:04:48]Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, the the Islamophobes freaked out and said Sharia law is coming to Ontario. And then it turned and it just went downhill from there. So, but >> Oh, yeah. Didn't do any research at all, Eric. Huh?

[00:05:04]>> No, that that I that I remember that was a big story. Three, four something.

[00:05:11]>> Yeah, it was uh it was interesting time.

[00:05:15]So is there anything um there are things that I have looked at uh basically your uh what you proposed what you put forth and I agree that the many young disaffected Muslims youth you know whether it be racism whether it be uh disaffected no job depression are are or can be brought into quote unquote jihadist terrorism.

[00:05:48]So I I agree with you on that. But just as many things can be true, like if I said dogs have four legs, that would be true.

[00:06:00]But there's much more to say about dogs than that they have four legs. Would you agree?

[00:06:05]>> Yes. Unless it's a three-legged dog.

[00:06:09]>> But for the most part, dogs have four legs. [clears throat] The three-legged dog is the the exception. So everything really comes down to definition of words. Would you agree? Steven Zoo or NCCM, you know who NCCM is, of course, Canada uh on islamic circle of North America Canada. Then we have ICC, Islamic Canadian Council of Imams. No, Canadian Council of CCI. Okay.

[00:06:38]Now, Steven Zoo, the spokesman, said that Steven Harper and the Canadians security were obsessed with security and Islamic terrorism.

[00:06:56]Now, why would he not say the Canadian government and Canadians are concerned with, you know, Islamic jihadist terrorism?

[00:07:08]So, by using the word obsessed because an obsession is an irrational fear that overtakes your life and is is irrational, it's illogical.

[00:07:21]So by use you can frame topics, issues, arguments, concerns and you can paint them one way as opposed to another. So in to some extent that that comes down to framing the narrative.

[00:07:36]Would you agree?

[00:07:37]>> And and NCCM is kind of notorious for that. Um, I mean, for maybe the viewers, some of the viewers, you'll catch the other video, but uh, part of my story is that I ended up being recruited as an undercover operative for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. And, uh, in 2006, 18 guys got arrested in a big terrorism investigation called the Toronto 18 terrorism plot or in Toronto 18 terrorism investigation. and uh National Council of Canadian Muslims and others of their ilk, they played the denial game, right? They played the denial game. They made me out to be the bad guy. I'm not going to say directly because I don't want to get sued by them. Uh it's not that NCCM directly put out any stuff along those lines, but um but you know, people who support them, their supporters, other individuals, I mean they were all they were all part of this denial of uh terrorism done in the name of Islam. And this was in 2006.

[00:08:38]And they framed uh national security operations as Islamophobia.

[00:08:45]>> Well, or an obsession. You could you can change the word Islamophobia for an obsession, an illogical concern. Either way, they framed it as. So then the question becomes if if we're saying that they or whoever they are and whoever we are, we say they are misunderstanding the reality, they can turn around and easily say, well, no, you are misunderstanding the reality.

[00:09:15]Would you agree with that? Uh yeah, they I mean there can only be one. Uh you know, you're going to have two opposing sides. One's going to make a claim, the other's going to make a counter claim.

[00:09:26]>> Yep. And but only one can be correct.

[00:09:29]>> Well, but not necessarily both can be incorrect as well. No, I'm saying like for example, if I said 2+ 2 is 5 and you said 2+ 2 is six, we can both be wrong.

[00:09:41]So there's a third option as well. But for simplicity sake, we'll stick with the binary, right? So right now when you were 19 and 20 would you call yourself a pious Muslim?

[00:09:58]>> Was I pious? Meaning did I participate in the physical rituals? Yes.

[00:10:04]>> No. No. No. In your heart did you believe you were a good Muslim?

[00:10:09]>> Uh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. So, I think one of the arguments that kind of come out of this uh let's say line of thought is uh one big one that really got under my skin [snorts] when anti-Muslims I don't I don't use Islamophobia either.

[00:10:27]It's really about being anti-Islam.

[00:10:30]Um when I the ISIS phenomenon was happening, you had people, you know, insisting that ISIS was the true Islam.

[00:10:43]and everybody else saying no, they're not the true Islam.

[00:10:48]So, which one was which one is right?

[00:10:51]>> Uh here I just want to drop in. I want to ask I want to ask I want to ask both of you a question. Actually, there's a saying, tell me what you've read and I will know what's in your mind, but not necessarily what's in the text. Uh I agree with both of you that no religion should be judged by the extremists. But as you guys just said um someone can ask is if Islam is peaceful then why do violent interpretation keep reappearing and and it's not a rhetorical question this because most Muslims are not violent but when when ISIS says they are Muslim and modern Muslims say they are not who do you guys think and I'm going to ask both like I'm going to ask both of you to answer this who do you guys think has the authority to decide today because texts require interpretation because literalism is dangerous but how much do we interpret because once everything becomes interpretation then anyone can claim anything basically so who does today actually have the authority >> can I answer that at the same time answering what Mubin just brought up about ISIS which we're all familiar with at least Mubin will be familiar with Shabir Ali correct Of course. Okay. We we know all the same people. I mean, I don't actually know him, but I know of him and I've, you know, basically lot listened to his show. He was is on record saying that ISIS recruits people and justifies their actions. And I'm saying this 90% accurately, his words. They use verses from the Quran, the Tasir, and um the Hadith to justify their position and their actions.

[00:12:43]He said this and it's it's valid because that's what they do.

[00:12:48]So, it would be hard then to say that ISIS is, you know, out from left field. Like they're they're nut cases. They're just nut jobs. they are basing some of their or they're basing their interpretation of what Islam is within the text of Islam itself.

[00:13:09]So can you say that that so can you say that they are not the true Islam or that is just their interpretation?

[00:13:17]Yeah, there's a I'm going to get a little technical because there's a difference of opinion in the among the early scholars in terms of the status of uh who are called classical Islamic term for religious zealots that emerged very early in the Islamic period. Okay, they're called the kawar. There are hadith, so narrations from the prophet peace be upon him, authentic ones that describe the Kawadage, their attributes, their behaviors and so on. And in the Islamic sources, these zealots, the Kawadage, are accused of reciting the Quran though it does not go beyond their throats. They are accused of being hyper religious in their worship. They are accused of declaring people as disbelievers.

[00:14:10]>> If if I may move in, please let me We're having a conversation here. Thank you.

[00:14:15]>> Yeah, but I was responding and I was giving you the three points.

[00:14:18]>> But WhatsApp is the is is is the balance is the perfect balance of religion. It's a term that's, you know, WhatsApp up the perfect balance or WhatsApp. WhatsApp it's it's a term for Islam is the perfect balance of a religion. So, so ultimately everything does come down to an interpretation at some point.

[00:14:37]>> Yeah. And so I think that was the question is where do you get that interpretation from? Right. So you have to go to the early Muslims to give you the interpretation. So an easy one which many people ignorant people you know Quran chapter 9 verse 5 everybody loves using this. It's even termed the verse of the sword. Okay. And it talks about uh you know 95 everybody uses that as hey this is telling you to kill the infidel that's how people repeat it but the term infidel is not used in that verse okay mushrien is used in that verse polytheists.

[00:15:17]And so the question is well what polytheists. So since we're only at verse five, I would encourage people to start reading from verse one, which says, "This is about the polytheists with whom you made a treaty." And then keep going down verse four, right before verse 5, the scary sword verse. It says, "Not included in this declaration of war are those polytheists who did not break the treaty with you."

[00:15:46]>> But if I may, please, Movement, you you're you're you're bringing up something. I think that's a good point.

[00:15:50]But now again you say who who broke the treaty.

[00:15:53]>> Those who broke the treaty from the polytheists, right?

[00:15:57]>> So again we come down to who decides when a treaty has and has not been broken. It still rests with the people who decide. You said you were going to give us $50, but you gave us $49 as opposed to 50 as an example. So now you've broken the treaty.

[00:16:13]Or you weren't supposed to do this on a Wednesday, but you did it on a Tuesday instead. So you've broken the treaty.

[00:16:20]It's still left open to someone's interpretation at some point and it doesn't negate the fact that for some reason as decided by someone we can do based on our text in misinterpreting yes or no, but it's still an interpretation that we should kill you for these reasons. Um I'm not saying it's the good reasons, but it's the reasons that they came up with.

[00:16:46]Well, it goes against the understood interpretation over centuries. The context is very clear. So verse four and then verse five. But I hear a lot of anti-Muslims, they quote, they quote chapter 9 verse5 as a proof that Islam teaches to kill infidels.

[00:17:04]So that can't be the correct interpretation because if the verse right before it is qualifying that particular verse number five and that's the interpretation of the mainstream Muslims for centuries then when somebody comes and breaks that interpretation we don't say oh well that's just their interpretation. We say no it's a wrong interpretation. It could be it could be the wrong interpretation but in religion but is not a religion a personal journey and spiritual connection between you and Allah if religion is a personal journey between you and God and Allah subhanana wa ta Allah your interpretation is between you and it's only for Allah to judge you on the day of judgment >> it's a received it's a received tradition that's the difference that in fact and and you know where we will actually end end up agreeing I think and and I think this is where uh some of your stuff that I heard you say comes from it's a lot of it is the the salifist interpretation the word salaf is the word that salafies use salafies emerged in the 1800s so the salaf yeah the salaf who emerged in the 1800s claim they follow the way of the salaf which is the pious predecessor essors the the earliest generations of Muslims.

[00:18:29]That's what they that's what they claim they follow.

[00:18:32]>> Correct. That's what they claim. Yes.

[00:18:34]>> But and again because I'm a Sunni Muslim traditional orthodox you know over a,400 years Islam has been defined by the four schools of law. You know Sufi orders uh different schools of philosophy. These Salafies they came out in the >> Excuse me. We have to include the Shia.

[00:18:53]We m we must include the Shia in that as well.

[00:18:55]>> Well, the Shia came at the time of Ali, right? After the time of Ali.

[00:18:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Right. So, what I'm saying is the Salafies who came out in the 1800s claim that they follow the earliest pious predecessors.

[00:19:11]And then I always say to them, I'm like, well, if you're following the Salaf, what have the Muslims for over a thousand years, what have they been following? Something else? somebody else. Am I going to take a group that came out in the 1800s as a representative of Islamic views and and deeds?

[00:19:30]>> But when you say the entire But when you say the entire history, are we going back to the 9th century, the 10th century, the 11th century, the 8th? Like where are we going when you say the entire >> You can span the entire history and you will find four schools of law in in Sunni Islam, >> right? So you're you you're negating Shia. the uh yeah I mean the Shia come afterwards and even the term Shia >> means sect or or schism or division.

[00:19:58]>> Sure.

[00:19:58]>> I just want to drop in with a sorry Eric with a question for Mubin here. Um and it's a question that me and Eric have been talking about on our previous episode. uh it's about uh they did some sort of an experiment when they went around Muslims who live in European countries and in in the west generally and they asked him do you want Sharia law in your country and most of most of them said yes and the question here is well can a Muslim reject part of the classical legal tradition while remaining fully faithful to Islam or does that fundamentally change the religion or does that not make him a Muslim again? uh if if you do not agree with a certain interpretation of Islam, what do you do right a as a Muslim? How do you know that is correct? How do you know you are still a Muslim? And I want to ask you, do you want uh do you want the Sharia law? If if not, why?

[00:20:50]>> Okay, this is a great question. Thank you. very important because many people are misinformed I think not informed enough in terms of what Sharia law even means. So where if if if I was to tell you listen I implement Sharia every day in my life in Canada because Sharia means because Sharia means when I pray I face Makkah. Sharia tells me before I pray I have to make ablution. So Sharia law is a is a giant body right of of laws religious laws about ritual purity about this about that and so on. Sharia law also tells the Muslim that he is obliged to obey the laws of the country in which they reside. In a non-Muslim country, of course, you're going to have no Sharia law, right? It's it's a non-Muslim country. So when you reside in a place, you reside under what's called an amana uh a trust or a contract. So like the citizenship contract is how we would call it. So, so if I can add with what Mubin is saying, very good because Bal Phillips, which we're all familiar with, Abu A Phillips, he said that it is the duty of all Muslims to do whatever they can in their ability to apply the Sharia because the Sharia is good for all people, for all times, and for all places. However, >> Sharia is not implemented on non-Muslims, right? He said it is not it is not wise >> for Muslims as a minority in Europe to make people scared by doing terrorism and be to be advocating for Sharia law.

[00:22:42]Now is not the time to do it.

[00:22:44]>> What advocating for Sharia law in what way? Like amputations in the public square?

[00:22:50]What do you mean by Sharia law? Because Sharia law like I said I implement Sharia law every day. Yes. Sharia law should be in Canada. Absolutely. Men and women being separated from each other could be Sharia law. Women wearing the face veil could be Sharia law or demand the hijab is Sharia law.

[00:23:09]Many things are everything that mus that Islam dictates. Sharia basically is I think it's the the well, the water, the ways that's the actual Sharia, the pathway.

[00:23:21]So it's not necessary to say Sharia law.

[00:23:23]That's actually redundant. It's actually just the Sharia. So, Muslims as dictated by the Islamic teachings have to and again we go back to Mazin Adam here in London, Ontario.

[00:23:39]>> Oh, you're quoting the hiser guy.

[00:23:41]>> But he did say that you must have loyalty to the Sharia because that's all you can have a loyalty to if you are a Muslim to the implementation. So you'll notice something that these positions they are all outlier positions meaning they come from Salafies they come from his and these are modern groups these are groups that form just hisbutar is like not even 100 years old right I know Mazin very well I investigated him so so you'll notice that these are all these are people that come from a recent tradition. These are these are newbies on the block.

[00:24:25]>> Well, it's a new political as a political movement. As a political as a political movement, it's new, right?

[00:24:30]>> Sure. Sure. But if you go to the traditional Sunni Islamic positions, you won't find these things. You won't hear these things. Like you were saying that a Muslim is supposed to what? Implement Sharia wherever they go.

[00:24:41]>> We we're talking across purposes here.

[00:24:43]You're misunderstanding something slightly. What I'm saying, I'm not saying Madim is right.

[00:24:51]I'm not saying I have, you know, this is Islam. Madim is right. Bill Al Phillip said this. He is right. I'm not saying who's right or wrong. I'm suggesting that these people have influence in the Muslim community.

[00:25:06]Some bigger, some smaller.

[00:25:07]>> And so that means what? That they're true what they're saying or they're representative of Islam. Like what is it?

[00:25:15]>> No, they have a voice and they speak and people listen.

[00:25:19]>> But what's what's the extension of that argument? That means what? Because we live in a free society where people say what they want. You have Christian preachers preaching what they do. You have all kinds of people saying all kinds of things. But but you but Ununice Cathedral Bal Phillips uh hacking Quick.

[00:25:36]What about Ursad Mangi? We could look into her. So what about the Fatwa Council of uh the Fatwa Council of Europe?

[00:25:44]and the council in Turkey just recently uh Syria etc etc are they also outliers are the European fatwa council of which many Canadian imams are members of it's like a big umbrella groups you know how that works you have the two or three or four major groups in Europe or in the world and everyone seems to go on a four year or five year conferences every five years to you know get to know each other and make everything move forward.

[00:26:16]Many of these councils you have to say they have influence. Correct.

[00:26:22]>> But what's the what's the line of argument here is like yeah we I mean of course there are people have influence you have small groups you have large groups >> right there is no argument. So Canadian Council of Imams are an influential group in Canada.

[00:26:36]Okay.

[00:26:38]They they came out with a letter very clearly signed um went to they they signed it and they came out with their own letter about rejecting LGBTQ as a perversion. Now I'm not saying that that's right or wrong but they did. So when Hakim Quick, who was a vice president of the Canadian Council of Imams, says that the punishment for homosexuality is death and that's Islam and you cannot change it. Well, I might not like that. I might disagree with him. Maybe maybe you might will disagree with him. So the Kingston Imm who's the president of the Kingston Islamic Association said very clearly that the punishment wahi I say to you that the punishment for leaving Islam is death and wahi don't let anyone tell you anything different. Now someone may say well no not really that's not true. Okay I I believe what you say. I prefer to believe what you say. But some people, some Muslims in the can in Canada will say, you know what, that's true.

[00:27:48]Leaving Islam is death.

[00:27:51]Now, maybe maybe they're wrong. They could it could be the wrong interpretation, but that is their interpretation. And it seems to be that some Muslims like the Toronto 18, the Via Rail, uh, and we can go on and on. the the the guys that stormed part who who stormed Parliament, the guys who ran over the guys with the car in Quebec City. I mean, they were I I say you're right.

[00:28:18]They were wrong.

[00:28:20]They're all wrong.

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[00:29:20]>> Salafi Salafi interpretation. This is what you're going to find. And you're going to find people say this and but here's the thing. We we live in a free society and it's kind of I'm I'm frustrated because we we we we like freedom. We we we want freedom of speech and all these things. But unfortunately within that freedom you get people who have the right to say things like this.

[00:29:41]>> Guys, I I just want to drop in. Is in the liberal society is this type of extremism by its actions self-limiting?

[00:29:49]Because I I I guess people being ready for extremism already requires some sort of psychological being psychologically broken first. Like for me, I cannot become an extremism because I'm just not psychologically there. If we go beyond religion, I if if we could erase every extremist ideology that is Islam tomorrow, would humanity simply just invent another one? Because this goes beyond Islam, of course. And is extremism a religious problem or a human problem? And and and does counterterrorism actually fight religion as in Islam or human psychology? Like can we implement extremist preaching into a liberal society and turn people who are liberal into extremists?

[00:30:38]>> Well, very I'm just going to how again now we have to define extremist or extremism.

[00:30:45]>> Yes. So who decides? I mean someone like Mubin will say that the Salafi are extremists and the Salafi will say no the Wahades are extremists. He and what they're all many Muslims have said or are saying very clearly that what doing too much is extremist but nobody talks about the other side of the coin which is to not do enough. So yes, you're clean shaven. Yes, you don't pray five times a day because you're doing so little. You are also an extremist. So we come back to defining extreme. Is 22° extremely hot or extremely cold? Depends what you're basing that against. If it's the middle of July, 22 degrees is very nice day. It's kind of cool. If it's the middle of January, 22 degrees is alarmingly hot.

[00:31:36]>> I think um yeah, of course, it's wrong to think like Islam is that's it. Islam is the extremism and if we got rid of Islam, we'll get rid of extremism.

[00:31:45]That's obviously false because we've seen, you know, we see extremism in other religions. We've seen it in the past. We see this level of extremism in political parties, political groups, genocides that have been done, right?

[00:31:58]That this stuff goes on. And ultimately, you know, it is a human problem. If you do take a step back and look at just the human millu and like the human situation, you're going to find these sorts of things all throughout history.

[00:32:12]So, it is a human thing ultimately. I mean, uh, but you can also you can if if we want to pick on the jihadist extremism that we see today, I mean, it's important to take that look right into the rest of society. If you think about it, like how long has the West been at war in the Middle East? If you if you if you have military uh conf confrontations over decades generationally in particular places, guess what you're going to get? Radicalized people. And you don't see the level of involvement in the Middle East in particular. You don't see anywhere else.

[00:32:50]>> Right? So here in the so if we stick to Canada, United States, North you know the western civilization which is where I live and I don't pretend to be an expert on what's going on elsewhere in the world. I don't talk about Palestine and Israel because that's a whole other kettle of fish. Are you familiar with Ed? Are you familiar with Ed Hussein?

[00:33:10]>> Ed Hussein. Yeah. Radical. The book radical. He said that he along with others but he particularly with MSA, Muslim Students Association was very in was very instrumental in advancing the jihadist terrorist network in London, England. Him personally and what he said at the time, he never did any terrorism himself. He never killed anybody. He never did anything. But he was a recruiter for and no one at any point ever stopped him from carrying out his activities. So the question that I asked in my book was on a if Ed Hussein if we if we for example would say we'll take Ershad Mangi and say on a terrorism scale or on an extremist scale according to the west anyways she would be a zero because she's an openly you know lesbian woman who's a Muslim who identifies as is a Muslim. Now, if we went to the other extreme and we went with the Salafi and the you know a shake with a with a claw with the hook, the blind shake, all of these people, we could say those that's a number 10 on the extremism scale. Correct. Just as an ex.

[00:34:32]Okay. So, somebody like Ed Hussein who as a university student was recruiting for his career, for jihad, for the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. He scored high on that scale at that time.

[00:34:48]>> But on the scale, is he a number five, a number four, or a number six?

[00:34:52]>> Well, so I don't know his current >> It's a rhetorical question, of course, >> cuz we established a scale. We say basically he was pretty much at the far end of the scale.

[00:35:01]>> No, I'm saying even No, I'm not saying I'm saying at the time he was somewhere on the scale, >> but closer to the I mean >> I'm not saying I'm not saying that. I'm saying it doesn't matter. that he was he was recruiting jihadists and promoting the jihadist worldview. That puts him high on >> somewhere. Fine. As you wish. I have no >> He's not going to be on five and not on six and I wouldn't give him even seven.

[00:35:27]Definitely eight, nine, and or 10.

[00:35:30]>> Well, he was definitely higher on the scale than her.

[00:35:35]>> Okay. Yeah. But the point remains, >> yeah, >> when is it an a concern or when should we when should somebody be concerned if someone is a five, a six, a four, or a seven? When does someone go from being just a religious nice Muslim guy who practices religion to a quote unquote terrorist? And I'm saying that's very hard to distinguish, if not impossible.

[00:36:00]>> Uh well, that's I think >> actually uh here's a question. Uh uh here's a question. I I I I have been like that question. Could there be a better a better reframing and c would it be better to go from what qualifies someone as a radical or where he is on the scale to what can we do in order for people to not be recruited because well because you can put a radical in a peaceful society who is not going to you know where people are not going to get recruited and he's just going to be dropped out of a society like he's not going to take over there needs to be a way for this Troy on horse to actually function. And I think uh and I think that here I maybe I want to touch down on on the weakness of Christianity just a little bit. Uh I mean here it's two against one, you know, but still for instance during my workouts I listen to nasheed for jihad. That's that's I'm just going to put it out there. I don't give a I like all that Is good for motivation. Now that out of the question we got [clears throat] we got to monitor you. Make sure you don't >> No, I like it.

[00:37:08]Yeah. So this is interesting.

[00:37:10]>> They are they are a division within Islam, right?

[00:37:14]>> Okay.

[00:37:15]>> Also and and it's according to them >> soon. Go ahead.

[00:37:22]>> N for instance, he contrasts what he calls master morality of valuing strength and pride and creativity with slave morality which grows out of resentment and empathizing humility and obedience and turning the other cheek.

[00:37:36]Right. And he thought that those arose when the powerless reframe their weaknesses as moral superiority. And could turning the other cheek, this morality of turning the other cheek, could that actually be a weakness of Christianity and people who we're not talking about radicalization here. We're just talking about people choosing Islam. Could these people actually have a point in in a way that okay, Christianity is is nice. I I like the morality of it, but it just sounds a little bit weak. And and and I I actually I I I was looking for the, you know, the action of turning the other cheek in Islam as well. And I think that according to the hadith tradition uh Muhammad went to Taif to invite uh people to accept his message and he was basically insulted and threw um and and threw out and he was after he left uh I think the angel reported to him and offered to destroy the people and he said no he refused. So that was kind of forgiveness and all that stuff and one could say but then again one could say that in Christianity there are many examples like this whereas in Islam there are fewer examples like this. So you know even if we have this type of example and and even the broken clock is right every day twice actually. So, >> so one is I think this is a sentiment that a lot of Christians feel um you know they want a tougher form of Christianity.

[00:39:08]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. There is a need for there is a need for something tougher. They just feel like they do not want to be wishy-washy basically. Could that be on the part of Christianity as well?

[00:39:19]Because people just do not want to have a wishy-washy religion that religion that everyone can basically walk.

[00:39:24]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, this is uh Christianity was remember for the first 300 years, Christianity had no political power, right? The the doctrines were still being formulated like the trinity, for example, doesn't become an official part of Christianity until much later.

[00:39:41]Uh the collection of the books, there's a lot of lot of uh instability, we'll say, in the first 300 years of Christianity. But then it becomes remember the Roman emperor Constantine converts to Christianity and then the uh Roman emperor becomes the Holy Roman EM empire. So this is when Christianity and government become fused. So I I know uh Eric was saying and on the previous thing about previous recording about separation of church and state that's in Christianity but not in Islam. But that's only partly true because for the centuries government and Christianity were handin glove right it was under the Roman Empire all the way up to the Byzantines right the separation of church and state is a relatively modern phenomenon right as well at that time Christianity was certainly not a pushover religion because they were they were out there fighting wars doing you know doing what they do so this idea a lot of people have this mistaken idea that oh Christianity is like Jesus was like a liberal hippie type whatever. No, he was like he was an orthodox Jew according to the teachings of that time, right? Like following the Sharia of Moses peace be upon him. So I I think and I'm I'm definitely like I'm I'm obviously and I'll close with this. I know Eric wants to comment like I I support the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These three have a shared history and a shared destiny. As much as they want to deny it for each other, uh you can see even today the events of the world revolve around these three. So for Christians, I think uh Christianity I I very much like the example.

[00:41:31]>> How could could we say that you are an influential man? You have some influence somewhere.

[00:41:40]Okay. I mean that's everybody has some influence somewhere and you try to influence people by what it is that you do. Correct. Is that fair? Okay.

[00:41:51]Kharim Abu Zahed. Do you know him or of him? Khim Abu Zahed. Imam Zahed from Colorado. Okay. Are you familiar with the Al Saladen mosque in Scarboro, Ontario?

[00:42:06]Okay. Bingo. Wonderful. Okay. Would you say that this mosque and this imam is that um Ibrahim Hindi or is Ali Hindi?

[00:42:18]I I get I get mixed up everybody. Yeah, it's easy enough to get mixed up. Okay.

[00:42:24]Could we assume that that mosque has much greater influence on the Muslim community than you do?

[00:42:36]arguable because their influence is limited to their area in scar bro whereas I'm an international person >> right okay so you're not prepared to say that this imam and his son and Karim Abu Zahed all three imams have more influence than >> salafies by the way again but I love this this is very good because like this is what you will find among the salafies and their interpretations and They're only from the 1800s. They're they're newbies on the block. Whereas us, we are the Muslims of centuries.

[00:43:14]>> The book was written by Jamil Zeno. The uh the book is uh moral clarifying morality and changing yourself for a better Islam.

[00:43:26]Um I have the name of it here somewhere.

[00:43:28]I can find it.

[00:43:30]Um so the point was there was a weekend workshop that was given on this book in this mosque but over the weekend and it was it was done by Karima the workshop was animated by Karim Buid very popular imam in out of Colorado who also who for right or for wrong has a degree from Alhazra University. Okay.

[00:43:55]Now this book and I did a whole segment on it uh on my blog. I spoke about it very clearly. It describes the proper way that you have to fight to do jihad and all you know you have to fight with your with your life with your property with your wealth. If some do it then then that means not everybody needs to do it because it's being done. And it also in for right or for wrong. It states that if you see an injustice, you must act upon it for yourself to do the jihad and to expel those who have expelled Muslims from wherever they have expelled you. And it goes into a lot of detail in what's called offensive jihad.

[00:44:39]And that those who hold that jihad is defensive. Oh, that's also in the book Garden of the Righteous, which is a very wellrespected book. Sunni, I guess, or Salafi.

[00:44:52]Garden of the Righteous. Al Saladin.

[00:44:55]You know the book. We all know it's the collection of hadith. 40 of the most authentic hadith. Yes. It talks, it says very clearly how those who distort that jihad is defenseive war only are misrepresenting the true nature of jihad.

[00:45:12]Now that might be wrong. Jamil Zeno could be wrong. The mosque could be wrong.

[00:45:21]However, they are a mosque and do they do influence some people and they are I think Ali Hindi and his son they are members of Canadian Council of Imams.

[00:45:30]Correct.

[00:45:32]They are members of the Canadian Council of Imams.

[00:45:34]>> I I don't know. I don't know that part.

[00:45:36]But I want to come back to what you were saying. You were saying that the the the the weekend thing that they had the teacher was saying that >> an individual has a responsibility.

[00:45:47]>> No, the book the book the book >> the book is saying that an individual has the responsibility to do jihad.

[00:45:54]>> Yes.

[00:45:55]>> Well, I I would need to see that. But the problem is that >> but we come down because it may contradict Sure. that contradicts the Islamic interpretation of over a thousand years. There is uh there is there is something that I see between you two when you guys talk something that is just reoccurring is you for example Muben you insist that something is wrong and then Eric you said it doesn't matter they have influence so it's basically you place more importance on the the interpretation and what's the right interpretation whereas in Eric you put more influ importance on who has the influence because that's who dictates what's wrong. Anyway, correct.

[00:46:40]>> Well, in verse five of the Quran, sorry, chapter 5, verse 101, it talks about do not ask questions if the truth were revealed to you might cause you to doubt.

[00:46:55]Now, multiple imams have said belief in the unseen is a mandatory uh pillar of Islam. Believing in the jin, believing in the angels, this is mandatory. This is part of Islam. Now many imams, Karim Abu Zed said very clearly as well as many imams say do not use your intellect to try to understand things that are unseen because using your intellect could cause you to leave Islam. And he recites the hadith where the prophet Muhammad report or somebody reported to the pro that the prophet Muhammad said that he went on the night's journey back and forth and he went up to heaven to talk to to God and negotiate for the the prayers and they thought that he that this didn't make sense. So the sah people called the Sahabah because they were at the time of the prophet they said this guy is crazy and they left Islam that's a hadith and so Kharim Abu Zahed points out that when you use your intellect to understand things of this nature it could cause you to leave Islam.

[00:48:12]So therefore, no because because it comes down to it's not about what's right and wrong, which is Mubin keeps many want to go back to this is the right interpretation and that's the wrong interpretation.

[00:48:25]Correct.

[00:48:28]>> I mean, you know, I want to use polite words, but so you you went to something completely different. You're you're talking about intuitively trying to rationally understand matters of the unseen. And and the point is is that because they're unseen matters, you cannot rationally intuitively understand them. Like for example, what do angels look like, right? Like angels are part of the unseen. Let me rationalize what I think angels look like, right? Like you're you're going to go off track because you're just relying on your own imagination.

[00:49:00]>> So that's what that's talking about.

[00:49:02]>> So a true Muslim submits to Islam and to the belief in angels and that's a true Muslim. Correct. You submit to to this understanding. So I'm again we we're talking perhaps you're might be slightly misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong.

[00:49:22]I'm just saying this is what the imam said.

[00:49:24]>> I know he said don't use your intellect.

[00:49:26]>> This is another theme of yours and I think it it's dangerous because it what it does is it makes everything it's too relative, right? Like it's like oh well it's whatever you believe it is.

[00:49:37][clears throat] Excuse me.

[00:49:39]because it has to be objectively true or not.

[00:49:42]>> Sure, you could say that Kim Abau is wrong to say what he said. You could say that Jamil Zeno book in that Scarboro mosque Saladin, these imams, they're wrong and you don't like them.

[00:49:55]>> How you framed it though, I need clarification on that because if the book says there's a well-known hadith that if you see something wrong, stop it with your hand if you're able to.

[00:50:06]>> No, that's actually the Quran. That's in the Quran. The stopping with your hand is in the Quran.

[00:50:11]>> Yeah. If you see something wrong, stop it with your hand if you are able to, if you have power and then if verbalize it, speak out against and if you can't do that, at least consider it wrong in your heart. But that's seeing Yeah, that's hadith. But that's seeing something wrong, right? Like to speak out against injustice. This is something that we all we all say this. Could we say that the website Q&A you know Islam Q&A again Salafi very bad of course however it is very influential and they and the what's most interesting about this site and I recommend everybody to go to Islam Q&A is whenever they give an answer they also give the evidence and the and the sunnah and the Quran and they okay so you cannot say that this site just comes up willy-nilly with some fatwa out of out of thin air. Well, if you see alcoh if you so if you see alcohol and there's hadith that talk about if you go something about smashing instruments and you're allowed to smash instruments, you're allowed to empty alcohol because this is haram, right?

[00:51:22]Individual is has the right to do that.

[00:51:26]An individual as a vigil so it's a vigilantism. Do you think Islam promotes vigilantism?

[00:51:32]>> There was a man who was making fun or a pro or um what do you call it? Uh a poet who was mocking the prophet Muhammad from another tribe far away. And the pro and Muhammad said, "Who's going to rid me of this man?"

[00:51:46]And one man said, "I" and then he went and he assassinated him >> ju just because he was insulting him. Is that your claim?

[00:51:55]because there were many others that insulted him, including to his face, but he didn't do anything about it.

[00:52:02]>> But I I don't know about those others.

[00:52:03]I'm talking about this one specific one.

[00:52:05]There's a there was a poet who was killed by an assassin on the behest of Prophet Muhammad. Now, was that right or was that wrong? I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong. I'm saying that that is some people interpret that as something that they should do. Some people interpret blasphemy laws or >> well yes we we know people interpret things in all different kinds of ways and we say these are the wrong interpretations.

[00:52:29]>> Okay.

[00:52:30]>> We don't we don't say like for example >> so are you going to say that >> during the Charlie so remember here in Canada when there was the uh the movie the innocence of Muslims >> uh yeah very anti-Islamic anti-Muslim uh movie. Yes.

[00:52:44]>> Yeah. For 20 minutes or 15. Right. So I think across the world there was riots and embassies on fire. Correct.

[00:52:53]>> Um I think there were some probably violent retaliatory attacks or something. Yeah. Yeah. To this is the thing to prove that Islam is not violent. They go and they burn places down, right? And and and we're supposed to believe that that's Islamic.

[00:53:08]>> I'm not saying it is or it isn't. I'm saying that this is what they did. I'm not a Muslim scholar, Mubin. I don't have a degree from Alhazra University.

[00:53:16]>> Yeah. But when you look at what the scholars say, they say this is not Islam. So, but then your response is, well, there's a small group. They have influence. They do it. So, so what?

[00:53:27]>> So, how are you are you telling me that Bal Phillips is a small group?

[00:53:31]>> What did Coun what did Canadian Council of Imam say that that's a terrorism or violent or whatever? Because they express distaste at homosexuality.

[00:53:41]That's extremism. No, I'm not saying it is. No, I'm not say I'm not saying it is extremism, Luben. You're saying that >> like I'll give you an example. When you said when you said Samuel Patti in France, I heard you repeat this twice.

[00:53:56]You said no imam spoke against it. They said, you know what they said? Oh, now is not the time to do that. I mean, a basic Google search will prove that wrong. There are multiple imams that condemn that attack. And nobody's on record as saying now is not the time to do these things.

[00:54:12]>> Yasukad is on record. Yes.

[00:54:14]>> He's saying what? He didn't condemn that attack.

[00:54:17]>> No, he he No. No. Actually, they didn't.

[00:54:20]No. What they what they what they what they condemned was the reaction of France after the beheading for showing the cartoons on the walls. But there but there were imams who condemned the teacher for showing the cartoons in the classroom and said so again we come back to Ununice Cathedadra here in Toronto no here in Vancouver who said very clearly that this filthy individual who who was who was alleged to be beheaded for showing these cartoons and these films.

[00:54:51]>> So why here's the thing though like this I get this I see this a lot with anti-Muslims. uh they what they do is the extremists are the one teaching them Islam and so they they end up they end up believing what these people do and they say hey they're they're Muslims they got beards you know they're they're following Islam >> let's promote Zudi Jaser and Ursad Mangi >> let's make them the voice of Islam >> I stick to traditional orthodox scholars so for example if I come from the Sufi tradition okay uh we have Sufis have far more supporters in let's say in your terms they have far more influence among Muslims than these Salafies do >> so you tell me what should be done about it should they be shut down >> 100% I'm not wait let me qualify because I don't want Salafies to come jumping down my throat I'm saying those people who are promoting division in society they need to be shut down absolutely people who are talking in ways that are glorifying ing extremism like this.

[00:55:57]>> Okay. But please, but keep moving. You use you use the term if they're glorifying extremism, but yet you have yet to and nobody has been able to define definitively what is extremism.

[00:56:08]So if I if I tell my if I tell my 12-year-old daughter that she cannot leave the house except with a face veil on, am I an extremist?

[00:56:19]>> Is it you are an extremist? you are an extremist but are you I mean I guess this would be this a second question is it illegal what they're doing so we're establishing standards right or or threshold that once you come to this level oh this is extremism once you come to this level oh >> who is going to make that call >> well that's ultimately courts adjudicate when we talk about uh so courts adjudicate courts adjudicate when you break a law >> right So I'm establishing a threshold.

[00:56:52]Laws are defined by the courts, right?

[00:56:54]There's a we know it's terrorism because ABC >> But when is it extremism? When is it just extremism without the app?

[00:57:01]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, who are you going to believe, right? Like whose definition are you going to use?

[00:57:06]>> So, but you use the word extremism. You said extremism mosques need to be shut down. So, I'm asking you. So, please tell me which are the >> You want me to define extremism for you?

[00:57:17]Well, if you keep using the word, then you should be able to define it.

[00:57:19]>> But then you're going to But then that's my interpretation. Like how can I impose my interpretation or my definition?

[00:57:26]>> Wonderful. So if it's your interpretation, that means a Salafi interpretation is also a legitimate interpretation.

[00:57:32]>> How did you go from the defining the word extremism to oh, so the Salafies could be just as correct as you?

[00:57:39]>> Well, because you're saying that it cannot be defined because or it's up to your own interpretation. So now you're you're playing the interpretation card if you like.

[00:57:48]>> When we talk about extremism in this context, who even defines these words?

[00:57:52]Like academics define these words. But very very try to you tried to be clever with the Salafi thing because I'm going to I'm going to say to you that I'm just going to smash that. I'm just going to smash that comparison because like I said, Salafism has only been around for 200 from the 1800s. So you can't say you can't look at a group that's only been around for 200 years or from the 1800s and say oh well their interpretation is just as valid when when the previous example of Islam has not been >> selfish. Katherine Bullock, she was at Osgood Hall 7, 10, 12 years ago and she said very clearly that according to UK MI5, maybe it's MI6, they classify an extremist as a Muslim who wants to live under Sharia law. That's the classification according to MI5 or to UK. She she was talking about that That's her understanding. Yes. She she said well she didn't say my father. She said the UK the UK deems any Muslim who wants to live under Sharia law as an extremist. She said Muslims wanting now I'm going to be quoting here. Muslims wanting to live under Sharia law is a perfectly normal natural point of view because Sharia law is something something for all Muslims. And so so her bone of contention was how do you define an extremist? Because these people define any Muslim who wants to live under Sharia law as an extremist.

[00:59:38]However, all Muslims, at least she said, all Muslims want to live under Sharia because that's perfectly natural and normal.

[00:59:47]So her So you see, we come back to she agrees. I'm not sure if she's agreeing with you or with me because I'm not actually making a a contention here. I'm not making a statement. I'm asking the question if you say that we should empower mosques because as I you did say many times on many podcasts or interviews that the whole extrem extremism issue needs to be dealt with by the Muslim community. Is that fair?

[01:00:17]You said that. Yeah, >> that sounds like something I'd say.

[01:00:20]Yeah.

[01:00:20]>> Okay. And Okay. And the Muslim community includes the mosque or it can. Okay. Okay. So would the mosque be the Saladin mosque in Scarboro with Ali Hindi and Ibrahim Hindi? Like who who this >> it could be to partic but didn't you just say that they're a Salafi mosque and they should be shut down for extremism. I >> I didn't say there are Salafies and they're an extremist mosque and it should be shut down. I said extremist activities done by anybody needs to be shut down. But at I'm not saying all Salifies are extremists and and shut down all I mean I I would I would like to I would like to if I was the if I was the king I I would I would probably prohibit and ban salifism. I think it's a disease in the Muslim world. It's infected the Muslim world and the non-Muslim world.

[01:01:17]Uh, I have a I have a uh I have a I have a question for Mubin here. Why do you think uh this is for Mubin? Why do you think that we don't have as many discussions about extremism as far as Christianity goes? Why why do we always focus on on Islam? Because I mean it's it's I is it is it because of I is it sorry is it because of the historical is it because Islam does teach the same values as Christianity but the problem is the the the story of Islam and the history because as I said before Christianity has more recorded examples of turning the other cheek in face of suffering but Islam has also a lot of examples of forgiveness but it's showing mercy after victory. So both tradition teach forgiveness but they emphasize it in different circumstances. And somebody could say that okay Islam is a religion of peace but they refrain peace as a process rather than a property. So it's not peaceful but it's a discipline for moving from internal conflict towards peace so to speak. Like what I'm asking is is it a matter of a story and history that the religion had that we that there seems to be so much debate about the extremism and all that type of stuff.

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[01:03:58]Yeah, that's it's a good question. I mean uh you know I gave going back to history of Christianity and history of Islam and you know that you have to look at context obviously historical context when when certain things were happening like Jesus Christ peace be upon him you know all you know about his life is three years of his ministry that's it and the people who wrote the stories about Jesus were not eyewitnesses and the sources that are written afterwards are anonymous sources and the textual tradition of Christianity is very weak. Right? So there are there are it has its own history. I know I made a number of claims. I'm sorry. Typical Canadian. I have to apologize. Like we have our arguments against Christianity and Christianity's tradition, but I I like what you said about like turning the other cheek. I don't think Jesus Christ peace be upon him was doing away with the law of eye for an eye. I think he was giving an interpretation of it like a better like well yeah you have the right to do this but I tell you to do this and that's actually in the Quran itself that it's better if even if you have a right it's better to forgo and to forgive. So that's in the Quran uh it's also in a hadith about uh one who has you know >> well otherwise it has no value if if you're not powerful enough to hurt another person then forgiving them or not hurting them doesn't have any value at all.

[01:05:28]you you're just weak. The question to the prophets peace be upon him was who is the who is the the he asked who is the strong one and they responded oh the one who can take down the other one and the prophet peace be upon him responded no the strong one is the one who when he is right to be angry he he doesn't become angry right when he has the right to take against someone he doesn't and he leaves it right so but let me let me come to your question directly I think yeah that's it's a good descriptor like the way in which peace has been kind of presented and I think a lot of it has to do with obviously majority minority biases. So Christianity is obviously the majority religious tradition in Europe and the west and so from that perspective they're going to kind of view other minorities in in or other religions that are minority religions especially competitor religions.

[01:06:22]Nobody competes with Christianity like Islam. That's the reality. There's a reason why Muslims and Christians have been at it. You know, you can go into the Crusades and you can talk about all those things, but this idea, okay, of like Christians were peaceful and it's all and this and that and it's like really, I mean, if you if you take a look at wars that are done by people who what does Eric say? identify as Christians, right? Or might identify as a Christian country. Look at how many wars they've been fighting for decades and decades. The US has been embroiled in some kind of military conflict pretty much since its founding.

[01:07:04]So what where is this peaceful Christianity that people keep talking about? Let I want to look look at the other thing like Russia what Russia is doing in Ukraine for example the Russia the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church declared a holy war against Ukraine. other Christians, right? So, it's a myth. It's a myth.

[01:07:27]This idea that, oh, Christianity, we are are we are peaceful and we are our Jesus, he said, turn the other cheek and you Muslims, you're all about chopping people's heads off. But who's been doing more of the killing in the past few decades? It's not the Muslims. If you do a tally and you count up how many people were killed, I mean, you're going to find the Muslims very low, very low on the scale. If you if you go back even just just a few decades, Paul pot Paul all if you look at the biggest genocides that have happened, right? The Muslims, they're at the bottom of the list.

[01:08:05]So, I think people need to get a reality check in terms of look and and here's what I'll do. I'll kind of defend the Christians because I Yeah, we take a step back and we realize this is how humans behave. It's not about Christians are like this and Muslims are like that and we're all like that. We human beings, we do awful things to each other and we have been doing so ever since we've been on this earth.

[01:08:33]>> Do you think that the West is risking uh replacing a Jewish problem with a Muslim problem? Because I'm not saying now now I'm not saying that that is wrong or right. But do you think that there are a lot of similarities between how the Nazis view the Jew as in filth or the other people who we should not let in?

[01:08:55]Would you correlate that to today's uh some of the people's reaction to Muslims basically Muslim problem instead of Jewish >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so the Muslims have replaced the Jews as that enemy. Yeah.

[01:09:08]in some respects that I think that is true. Uh because uh Islam and Judaism were so similar to each other. Anecdote, I was actively I was undercover at the time. I went to I was in a Jewish area of the city. I had to get tomatoes for my wife. I was outside. I had my Where's my little black hat? I had my my little black Muslim hat on.

[01:09:36]Big beard.

[01:09:38]guy drives by and pardon me and forgive me for using this slur. He drives by and he says, "Yeah, looks like a kite."

[01:09:46]Derogatory term for Jewish person. And I looked around and I said, "Oh, where's the Jew? Where's the Jew?" I was the Jew, right? So, you know, it I think there are similarities in that sense and there is a confusion and in some respects, yes, Muslims have replaced that. It's like the new enemy. They're taking over.

[01:10:07]It's a threat to civilization.

[01:10:10]These are common tropes that were used against other people, right? Asians, you know, way back.

[01:10:19]>> Would Mubin agree that a Muslim is not Islam? A Muslim is not Islam the same way a Buddhist is not Buddhism. Full stop. That's that follows. That makes sense. So it's a simple statement because an individual an ind an individual Muslim is not the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam is the doctrine, the hadith, the sunnah, etc., etc. So in all of my work, I separate the two very clearly. You have Islam, the doctrine, the three books, and then you have what Muslims do or what Muslims say or what Muslims believe. Those are two different things. So like what Mubin said, you can be a fallen Muslim, you can be a pious Muslim, you could be the wrong Muslim, you could be a Salafi Muslim who's, you know, or you could be a Wahadish Muslim.

[01:11:10]You know, there's many kinds of Muslims you can be, but that is not Islam itself. And those are two different things. So we have we I think we can agree that some Muslims are misinterpreting the true Islam. Whatever. Yeah. Some people So, so if you like, we'll call them so some people who identify as Muslims are misinterpreting the true Islam.

[01:11:39]>> Yes, they they can be criminals. Yes, >> sure. They could be whatever you like to call them. Sure. What we call them is irrelevant. They exist.

[01:11:48]So now the question becomes, what's the percentage of those who exist? So we can agree perhaps that the Toronto excuse me under Toronto 18 and etc. It's not an it's it's it's a reality that exists among us.

[01:12:08]>> Yeah. You have extremists in every religion. Criminals with all different backgrounds.

[01:12:14]>> Well, no, but we're we're not talking.

[01:12:15]So, for example, if I go to the store to steal a loaf of bread, that's far different from a Hell's Angels. Well, Hell's Angels is a criminal organization. You know, me going to the store to steal some bread is not quite the same as being a Hell's Angels member. Stealing some bread so I could eat some bread, feed my family. It's not a criminal enterprise.

[01:12:38]So, so if if I steal your running shoes and I happen to be a Christian or wear a cross, does that mean I'm stealing your running shoes because I'm a Christian?

[01:12:51]Maybe not. Because maybe there is no there is no uh doctrine in Christianity that says kill someone who leaves Christianity. There is no such doctrine.

[01:13:03]So there's no mis misunderstanding. Now if a Christian were to do that he would be doing something out from the blue sky because there's no doctrine. Oh, so like however when you had so when you had centuries of forced conversions by Christians of Jews in particular when you had the inquisition when fellow Christians were being executed for things is that Christianity but see you see the line of argument if you apply the same argument then then you then you end up having to admit >> but the doctrine is different from the people right so you agreed to that we agree into that. Right. Right. So when when the shake in Kingston when the imam says according to Islam the death for leaving Islam or sorry the penalty for leaving Islam is death. Now it's possible it's just possible that someone hearing that then goes home to the Islam Q&A looks up the hadith finds all the doctrine and then he says well there's a guy in my school. He used to be a Muslim and now he's a, you know, Cather and he's he's going out with Christian girls. If he were to kill that boy, he could say that look the imam said that the hadith says and so I acted. Now we would say he was wrong. You will say that he was wrong. I agree with you. But he did what he did based on doctrine, >> based on misunderstanding.

[01:14:31]>> Uh an incorrect interpretation.

[01:14:33]>> Sure. Sure. Incorrect. But the words are clear. But the im But the im was clear.

[01:14:38]>> Validate their incorrect. Absolutely.

[01:14:40]But the im was clear when he said the penalty for leaving Islam. And he used the word whatever that means. Okay.

[01:14:48]Wahi.

[01:14:50]That's the right. So he is wrong. I agree with you. He's wrong. Mubin. I agree.

[01:14:55]>> Okay. So in the ye in the in the decades in I don't know how long Muslims have been in Canada, has there been a case of that?

[01:15:04]somebody going and killing somebody because they changed their religion. It doesn't take away from your argument because people are going to use like I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example like the grooming gangs uh you know things in the UK right um some of these guys claim that yeah Islam yeah captives whom your right hands possess.

[01:15:26]Okay.

[01:15:26]>> So they base they base their so for the audience they're basing their understanding of raping white British girls based on their understanding of the teachings of Islam and the doctrine.

[01:15:39]>> Okay. So that's what they claim, right?

[01:15:42]So either you accept that claim or you reject that claim. You can't say, "Well, that's what they believe."

[01:15:49]Well, we know that's what they claim. We know that's what they claim. So a basic fact check, rape in Islam is a capital offense.

[01:15:59]Captives of war in in ancient times like the Romans did, like the Persians did, like everybody did, the Christians, you took captives of war. You made them indentured servants basically. That's what they became. Okay. Captives of war.

[01:16:16]>> But you don't I'm agreeing with you that those guys are misunderstanding. You're correct. I know, but I I have to explain why. Because people blindly regurgitate these things >> thinking that this is what Islam teaches.

[01:16:28]>> No. No. We we we're beyond that. We accept that this is not what Islam teaches. However, but and we accept that that they have interpreted the doctrine to mean that.

[01:16:40]I I don't accept their views either, but those are their views. instead of saying because what I've seen especially in the grooming gang scene which is an awful awful crime uh what I've seen is people saying oh yeah Islam teaches people to do that you know the citizen vigilante that movie uh that this movie that came out right Arman van uh Arman Hammer right killing the people who were involved in the grooming gang scandal uh very provocative movie interesting uh I'm not going to say I hate it uh I think there's some pretty good stuff in there uh the idea like He killed judges.

[01:17:14]He killed like he wasn't just killing because there's a scene, right? Where he comes into the Muslim family's home, right? Before he kills everybody, he asks the father, right? And the father says, "We are teaching my family from what we know, learn from Quran and our culture, right?" So it it kind of embeds it into the movie that oh this is what the Quran teaches. So that's why we need to say we we cannot think of it from a psychological operations perspective.

[01:17:43]That's how I kind of do it. We're validating them. We're giving the enemy validation, right? And so we should just say, "No, these people are criminals, right? They're wrong in what they're saying." So, you know, the in the Canadian context and I I obviously we we we share the same concerns like people like Ununus Katrada and you know, these vile vile people. It's it's unfortunate is the only word I can come up with that we live in a society that tolerates people like that that allows people like that to spew all kinds of nonsense right so what what do we do look let's come back to your thing about what defines extremism what's the threshold what does that trigger so for example when I say this was my work in the intelligence world this is it's all about the extremism there's no there are no laws being broken the police investigate when laws are broken. The RCMP, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, for foreign viewers, uh it's our federal police service. So before that that legal threshold is met, it's the intelligence world and that's where extremism is investigated. So you could possibly define extremism and again this would just be my interpretation ultimately or my definition but it's like anything that seems like it's going to lead towards breaking the law because up to and and what sometimes they call they call this the they call this the pre-criminal space. So what about just what about So what okay I'd like there's so many interesting things and we can spend three hours talking in a circle.

[01:19:22]Uh but I'd like to bring it back to something that you said was that now I'm not sure it's many Muslim youth go down the wrong path of radicalization or go to Syria because they're disaffected and they don't feel part of society. They feel marginalized.

[01:19:41]That's part that's that's one of the reasons, right? Right. There's many reasons. That's there's many reasons, multiple reasons, but that's one of the reasons. Are you familiar with Dr. Jasmine Z?

[01:19:53]>> Oh, God. Sure am. She hates my guts, of course, because she's a big uh Yeah.

[01:19:59]hyper leftist. Sees Islamophobia everywhere.

[01:20:03]>> Right. Okay. So she when she did her PhD thesis she wrote about the uh ethronog ethno ethnography of Muslim schools in the diaspora something of that nature and the importance of it and it's I read the whole book or actually I read the whole PhD.

[01:20:29]Yes. Uh it was it was difficult to read but I read it and it features in my book.

[01:20:37]Now, she goes on at length about how parents in Toronto have taken their kids out of public schools because they were becoming too western and they put them into the Madrasa in order to safeguard the Islamic Muslim values, community and heritage.

[01:21:02]at the same time in her PhD in her study uh the Canadian Islamophobia in the e- the economics economics of Islamophobia in the great white north her study she says that Paga Canada are right-wing racist xenophobes because they advocate for guarding their heritage.

[01:21:29]Well, guarding our heritage is sometimes a euphemism and used as a Yeah, because some people are not going to come out and say, "Hey, we're racists. Screw you." They're going to say, "Oh, we're supporting our culture."

[01:21:41]>> Right. But but she does say and she goes to quoting other known scholars who also say that the Madrasa is important in order to safeguard the Muslim heritage and culture in Ontario. Right? So if Muslim youth feel Can I use the word otherized?

[01:22:02]>> Sure. Good. Okay. Good word.

[01:22:04]>> Yes. If Muslim youth are feeling otherized, could it have something to do with the fact that imams, Islamic scholars, etc. say that Muslims, youth especially, should reject Western civilization in order to be separate and to live amongst themselves.

[01:22:27]>> A ghettoization. It promotes a ghettoization.

[01:22:30]>> Absolutely. I I think I know where you're going. Yeah. So once again, you you will find that it will be the Salafies. It will be the Salafies who promote this sort of mentality. It's a separationist worldview. I call it I that's what I call it.

[01:22:46]>> But but you know about the world the the the house of Islam and the house of war.

[01:22:52]There's there's two worlds, right? Dar Islam, Darl Hab, >> but there's also D A place of uh treaty, right? dil right a place of peace where so it's not just it's not just dar Islam and dal harb this black and white dichotomy as if there's only two options is something that these extremists salafies primarily this is what they've done that yes they do see it that way yes yes >> these schools and these madrasas do see it that way so for example >> a separation yeah I know what you're saying yeah yeah and not just in Canada you see this wherever This this infrastructure is set up, this institution is set up. UK the same Indoac Madressa system anywhere the Indoacs have migrated to, they replicate that institution in the US, in Canada, in the UK, in Australia, in other countries in Europe. Absolutely. They do that. Bro, I went to one of those madrasas. My father ran the Madrasa since the age of five years old. five years old I was in those madrasas.

[01:24:03]It's it's it's it's like abusive. It's an abusive environment in in many respects. Yeah.

[01:24:09]>> And you were also saying that young men 15, 17, and 20. Of course, I was a man.

[01:24:15]You were a man. We remember being 15 years old with the hormones, right? All you can think about is women. It's it's a problem when you're 15.

[01:24:23]>> I was a man. [snorts] No, I'm kidding.

[01:24:25]Yeah. Go ahead. Now we do know that this whole idea of 72 virgins as outlandish as some people may think it to be is actually very well entrenched in hadith.

[01:24:37]What's interesting is that Yaser Khadi said that it's diff that to some extent this is not very controversial kind of makes sense that the whole desert tribal culture mentality had an effect on shaping Islam.

[01:24:54]That's what he said. Well, of course, it's a it's yeah, it's also a product of its time, right? Yeah. So, like the the verses of jihad in the Quran refer to battles that were taking place at that time. So, when people take verses generally that refer to specific battles and say, "Oh, this is what Islam says. I can kill the infidel wherever I find them." We say, "No, you can't >> because because and you can't because you're promoting that they should read the context.

[01:25:24]You cannot just you cannot Yeah. We're not literalists. We don't >> So you're appealing. So you're appealing to the context. Correct.

[01:25:32]>> Yes. Because that context that interpretation is the received tradition. So when I this is how I know how to interpret a verse in that way because the early Muslims interpreted it that way. Yeah. So someone could say that the context that you're applying is not the same as the context that we're applying because it comes from over here. So we could have the battle of the context.

[01:26:00]This is is great because it links back to the kill the one who changes his religion because in the early period when the Muslim community was very small this is the exact there was no army we give there was no army and everybody every man was was a soldier >> yeah the idea that somebody leaving would basically go back to the enemy's camp >> and and and just remuster themselves to fight again so they were like nope you got to get killed but the context now and afterwards when the Muslims were no longer a minority group. Well, then that ruling is not going to apply anymore.

[01:26:35]>> Yes. A according according to that interpretation of that context, right?

[01:26:41]So, it what I'm So, when I say it could be, I'm not saying that they could be right or they could be wrong. I'm saying it's it's your interpretation and it's it it could be that you are right.

[01:26:53]>> Two contradictory opposing interpretations cannot be right.

[01:26:59]Like we like 2 plus two is not five and 2 plus two is not six either.

[01:27:03]>> But if I if I ask you to go to the store and buy me some milk and you come back with 3% milk and the other guy comes like I ask five people to go to the store, buy me some milk. One guy comes back with skim milk.

[01:27:19]Another guy comes back with 3% milk, 2% milk, one 1% milk. It's all but one guy comes back with Coca-Cola.

[01:27:27]He's wrong. It's not milk. Right? So in again in all of that there's a there's a a spectrum of right and wrong.

[01:27:36]So once you have go to the store and buy me some milk or when the holy months have passed, kill the polytheist and wait for them in every ambush. There's context. There's context on that. However, it's >> the prohibited months, right? The prohibited months, right? What are those months? months in which you cannot fight. Right. So So there's a rule being followed here, right? And and so you you I like how you did that because was it is chapter 95, right? It's 95 and after those sacred months have passed, then continue your fighting basically, right?

[01:28:16]Then fight them. And it wasn't even against all the uh polytheists as we learned from verse four. That's why it thank you for quoting that because that's why context is so important.

[01:28:27]>> I never talk about the Quran or what the Quran says. That was 12 years ago. I stopped never. I don't go to the Quran anymore. What I am a specialist in and what I concentrate in and on is what domams scholars teach? What do they say Islam is? Now you may say, you know what, Eric, >> I'm quoting from Salafies, by the way.

[01:28:54]>> So you're you're like you're basically like it's it's inadvertent. I understand that. But I ironically what's happened is you're like you end up promoting the very same interpretations that we have a problem with. Right. So yeah, you should go to sufilive.com sufi.com.

[01:29:14]You should quote him. Would you say that wanting to live under Sharia is mainstream Islam?

[01:29:22]>> What does that mean? What does living under Sharia mean? Define that.

[01:29:27]>> Transportation, buses, separating genders, you know, all of it. I'm talking about Sharia in the public sphere where women where, for example, we can say under Sharia, women are not encouraged to go into politics.

[01:29:43]>> They're not encouraged to shake hands with men. Correct. You could you could make that argument. You could make that argument that that it's an interpretation, but you have women involved in politics in countries, Muslim majority countries, and people don't consider that a violation of Sharia.

[01:30:02]>> In the hadith, in the hadith, is it not very clear that women should not be in politics?

[01:30:08]>> It is not clear. Number one, it's not clear. A and we the Sharia you don't just look at again this may >> but how can women be in politics under you have to have segregation >> maybe because you're influenced by the Salifi perspective because what what they do is and and I don't mean that as a pjorative against you more against the Salifies it it's this idea that we need to replicate 8th century Arabia or 7th century Arabia as it was then so shall it be today.

[01:30:39]This is not this is not the >> we just clarified that the the nikab is mainstream Islam.

[01:30:47]>> Okay. Do okay. So the so the the idea of the nikab if I understand and you can correct me is to keep the woman separate from men's gaze in all respects.

[01:31:01]>> Well Allah says in the Quran to men keep your gaze down. So that's so the nikab is for the woman to kind of in a sense to be erased from the public space.

[01:31:10]>> Uh I don't know about being erased because in the early period no no I I'll catch you on this because the the early Muslims those who veiled for example they they were very they were very present in society. Women scholars would teach other men would teach men scholars. So they were not they were not disappeared from society. Maybe in you know you might like if and Afghanistan is a horrible example is the worst example of that movement. So you pro you so you would not be against I'm assuming I'm asking a question you would not be against the total implementation of the Sharia as defined by the prophet Muhammad the Sahaba and the Rashidun in Canada. But hold on. But it's already implemented. If the the fact that she the fact that she's able What do you mean in the public space?

[01:32:11]What does that mean? Like the government like the government is going to tell me what position to follow like that because that could happen in an Islamic state.

[01:32:24]Uh I I I want to ask uh I want to ask a question here that uh Eric you also uh before you said that there are multiple I guess you were talking about the fact that there are multiple identities that a person can have. So I am a Christian but I stole that. I am a Christian but I did that. That's not Christian. Um can you be a Christian and a criminal at the same time? Can you be a Muslim and not want to have Sharia law at the same time? I I guess we're asking at at at at a certain point one identity pushes far enough so that it replaces another identity and we can ask if Muben does not want to have full Sharia law in a country is he still a Muslim >> that's what we mean that that's what we mean like it's like what do we mean by that right like for example I can say like Sharia is not for non-Muslims this is a basic thing that people forget so this idea of in the UK, you know, when they had no Sharia zones or no go zones or whatever, it's ridiculous. You cannot impose that into a non-Muslim land.

[01:33:27]Sharia law is not for non-Muslim lands.

[01:33:31]So, anybody that claims in a non-Muslim land that they want Sharia here is actually violating the Sharia. Okay.

[01:33:39]Another way to look at it is >> also okay a very good point and also uh uh just for the listeners to know that when we're talking about women I guess there is nothing in the Quran that talks about uh relationship between Muslim men and non-believing women. So basically Muslim men treat non-believing women as fellow men. So these uh restrictions and all that do not apply. Am I correct?

[01:34:02]>> Oh I see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that the that the separation thing but even this is like it's up for debate because you have other religious traditions that similarly segregate at least in their religious worship right like Orthodox Jews you know they have a whole separation thing certain Christian sects also do that uh Muslim groups do that um but then you know again what does that mean right like just because people sit you know a women's section and a men's section does that automatically mean that the men don't think women are equal human beings to them. No, that's a leap in logic as well, right? What you have to look at is there actual segregation being done where certain things that are made available to the man are not made available to the woman. Uh just so on what you were saying the rule applies Whoops. I don't know why that was the rule applies across the board in terms of like the Sufi groups that we we go to like I go every Sunday we go to aikar, right? chanting and remembrance and whatever. It's one area. The men sit up front. The women are right behind us.

[01:35:08]They're like just a few feet away from me. And you know what? It's fine because I'm a normal human being. Like for me, it's so what? There's like another person there. But I think and maybe this kind of comes back to the cultural argument that when you when you have people who come from societies where you know the the women are basically like hidden away or you know made to feel like disappeared from society then it's no wonder when they come to western societies they can't control themselves and that and that's exactly why we see the things that we see in Europe in particular right that you have these people who come Indoakistanis look is grooming gang stuff. The grooming gang stuff in the UK is done overwhelmingly by the Pakistani a subgroup within the larger Pakistani community.

[01:35:56]>> So this form of tribal mountain Afghanistan Pakistan tribal Islam of the 13th century in the mud huts.

[01:36:07]Yes. Which you spoke about the AK. I saw your story with the AK and you felt like a man. This is the true Islam in the mud huts. I remember that story.

[01:36:16]But that Islam or aspects of that Islam that mentality is in the west in some communities today.

[01:36:28]Okay. Now we so we may say you know that's not the good Islam that's not the true Islam. That's a backwards Islam.

[01:36:36]>> It's say it it's a backwards mentality and you we don't want it where we live.

[01:36:40]>> But but it but it's here in can but it's here in Canada in the west in UK in Germany. Okay. And as we know many reasons why, many reasons, right?

[01:36:51]Many reasons.

[01:36:52]Um because that is I and you and a whole bunch of us, we can pick up a book called the Quran and we can start our own self-radicalization group. So, according to the there's a a study that came out and I I featured it in in my book that said that not only can radicalization occur in the mosque, some mosques, this was a security uh and I can open up my computer and I'll find it, but it's he said very simply that the mosque sometimes can lead to radicalization, but sometimes children could radicalize parents, parents can radicalize children and siblings can radicalize each other. And that radicalization can sometimes occur in the home.

[01:37:43]That's what this study said.

[01:37:46]Now, if it's happening in the home, that means it's now part of the culture in the home.

[01:37:54]>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, but what's what's the what's the point of that? Because yeah, people get radicalized at home.

[01:37:59]They're they're radicalized due to influences from their parents, due to influences from >> again, we we come down to so what we come down to is multiple imams in Canada have said, well this whole because everybody was up in arms recently when I think was it the Taliban who started telling women they had to wear the the borca in public and many imams were saying this is their right. They are now the law of Pakistan and they have a right to tell their women to wear what is proper Islamic attire. The same way Macron has a right to tell Islamic women they're not allowed to wear the face.

[01:38:43]>> Oh, is that is that the argument they made?

[01:38:47]Very very okay. Okay.

[01:38:50]Very interesting. But think but think about that like like take but understand that argument. It's again I don't agree with that whole borcaing women you know to death basically but the argument is an interesting one right it's like a sovereignty argument that hey it's their country they make the laws they can do what they want screw you right >> and we and he said and he went on to say that every and he he spoke about the word g h i r a gira like like jealousy yes yes he talked about every man should have And he should love for the Sharia to be implemented.

[01:39:29]And he was talking about because the whole idea of the face of the nikab and the face veil is also part of the the jealousy and it's also part of the duth like you are familiar with the duth right so the duth so is a person who is extremely duth or I should say the opposite of a duth right is he an extremist or is he just a Muslim a believing Muslim like like how do you differentiate between someone who says, "If you look at my sister, if you see my sister, that means she is now used property and I have to kill you."

[01:40:08]>> That's that's ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:40:10]That might be a bit much. So, let's call But yeah, but there's a lot But you can be honest.

[01:40:14]>> Okay. But you But you but you could say, "I'm not going to let my daughters leave the house without a face veil."

[01:40:20]>> And you're saying that >> and but the face veil is mainstream Islam. As we just said earlier, that the nikab is mainstream Islam. I mean uh you know the the it is a mainstream position to wear the niklab um but uh legislating right is the question. So in a in a non-Muslim country for example where we we give people rights to fre you know freely practice their religion a person could say yeah I believe that you need to cover your face. Okay now where do you take it? Because you know what it also says in Islam in Sharia law is that you you follow the laws of the country in which you live. So if the country and it's I'm glad you mentioned that about the imam saying if the country decides you know what we're prohibiting face coverings you have to accept that it's part of Sharia that you follow the laws of the land in which you live. Don't like it.

[01:41:16]So, so, so what? So, but this is the thing. This, it just shows you the the flexibility of Sharia, how it works, where it's implemented, how it's implemented. There's a whole discourse on that.

[01:41:29]>> A face is a face is a very important aspect of our humanity. At least in Western civilization, that's how we see it. The face, right? I mean, to cover the face, some would say that that's extreme.

[01:41:41]It's an extreme position. It's an extreme statement. Well, it's not about a right for me to see her face. It's a it's a question of civilization and decorum that in the public space in the public space in Right. In the past, right? Okay. But in the past in Western civilization there was a unwritten rule.

[01:42:02]one of those cultural things if you like those archaic cultural things where in the public space we all smiled and saw each other and acknowledged each other's presence and and saw each other's face.

[01:42:16]So that could be so that could be why the Pakistani rape gangs in the UK they saw these women as not wearing the hijab. Therefore they understood it that these are women that they could harass and sexually molest. Well, you're not allow you're not Yeah. In no case are you allowed to harass, sexually harass, or rape women.

[01:42:37]>> Rape is a capital offense in Islam.

[01:42:39]>> Unless Unless, of course, it's the women your right hand possesses.

[01:42:42]>> There's no there's no >> unless it's the women your right hand possesses.

[01:42:45]>> No. No. There's no the there is no >> It's in the in the Quran. It says the women your right hand possesses, you can take them as you want. Come on, Mubin.

[01:42:53]>> You're allowed to marry them, not to rape them. But you don't have to marry them because you have your wives and then you have the women that your right hand possesses from the booty of war into hello rape is punishable by death in Islam. I I'll show you the the I'll show you the >> So are you telling me that when you marry a 12-year-old girl to a 50-year-old man?

[01:43:15]>> How are we We're jumping on to now you want to go into But are you going to tell me that so that's not rape? Because there are a lot of Muslims, there are a lot of women, there are many women who say that they were married off to their husbands.

[01:43:30]>> They were married off to a man who they did not love. Come on.

[01:43:33]>> You drop one thing, then you drop a second thing. You claim, >> but I'm saying from the perspective of the girl. From the perspective of the girl, women have said that they were raped by their husbands every night.

[01:43:45]That's what they say. That's not me saying it.

[01:43:47]>> Eric, >> do you agree that some women feel that?

[01:43:50]Eric, I don't know why you just did this because I was finishing the answer to one question. Then you just dropped in two other topics as like a gotcha.

[01:43:59]>> No, because you're saying that rape is punishable in Islam. You're saying because you say rape is punishable in Islam, correct? Make a simple Are you going to stop for a second or you just >> But you did say rape is punishable in Islam, right?

[01:44:13]>> Did you say Islam did you not say rape is punishable in Islam? Yes. Come on.

[01:44:17]Did you say that? I'm agreeing with you.

[01:44:19]death in Islam.

[01:44:20]>> Yes. And >> so how do you define rape?

[01:44:23]>> But how do you def who defines when it's >> sexual intercourse? Eric.

[01:44:27]>> Yes. Rape.

[01:44:28]>> Okay. Now, let me put it to you, Eric.

[01:44:30]If you can find me and we'll leave this for the next session. If you can find me a single statement permitting rape of captives of war or anywhere else, I will leave Islam.

[01:44:42]>> Yes. But it's not rape. That's just it.

[01:44:45]It's not rape. And guys, uh maybe as a as a as a closing statement, we were definitely doing part two. I know what I'm starting with. Like no matter what the disagreement was, no matter how guys you got excited or unexcited about the the discussion, I don't think you two really realized like I was the third person here. I don't think you two realized how interesting how freaking interesting that was. And like, okay, there was a lot of disagreements. I didn't expect it to finish any other way.

[01:45:16]>> It was It was nice until this I don't know why this guy just like went right off the rails.

[01:45:21]>> I don't care what happened at the end, but guys, this was this was a really really freaking good discussion.

[01:45:28]>> Alhamdulillah.

[01:45:35]>> Our father who art in heaven.

[01:45:38]All right, guys. Thank you guys for that, but I do know this.

[01:45:44]>> [music]