WE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSE! YOU'LL BE OL-KALOUED! Methu leads Gachagua's green army in Senate TOUGH DEBATE

[00:00:04]Uh thank you very much uh madam speaker with your kind indulgence if you allow please allow me to also congratulate my brother my age senator Eddie on his appointment and new role as the deputy minority whip you know madam speaker h for the four years that you've been here we have seen the clock go all round I was here when senator Hounding Senator Senator Folo out of office and we all here we are really happy about it.

[00:00:37]Senator Langa and I were removed from office by Senator Bon Roll. He's one that moved the motion here. Now he's with us in the trenches. We have seen everything here and we shall see everything. So I congratulate Senator Eddie and I tell you that enjoy when it lasts. Now you are deputy minority whip, you are chairman committee on roots, your vice chair committee on CPIC. Enjoy when it last. you you have been there and maybe you shall join us in the tangent someday.

[00:01:02]Madame speaker, I thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to weigh in my thoughts on this particular bill. I have spoken about this many times but I feel like the way this bill has been ordered and that is why I would want to have a very serious conversation with Senator Eddie Okage because from his contribution I think he has more problems the bill than he supports the bill. In fact he proposed more amendments than he supported what is contained in this bill. I feel like madam speaker the move of this motion the honorable senator for meu is trying to cure a headache by cutting off the neck is actually trying to cure a diarrhea by stitching the exit I don't feel madam speaker like uh um like you know madam speaker there are two things we can't legislate I don't know what is amusing to the senator for Narok. [laughter] Madame Speaker, [laughter] Madame Speaker, you know, there are two things we can't legislate. We can't legislate relationships and we can't also legislate uh love. You know, those are issues that we can legislate.

[00:02:22]Madam Speaker, the ultimate resolution of this particular challenge because I think we have stated the problem, all of us have stated the problem that many deputy governors are suffering, I have said it many times. All of us have said it many time many times. But I don't think this piece of legislation is meant to actually cure that particular problem. In fact, I think we are digging a deeper hole than we are intending to cure. I think we are making it even worse. And I'll give you the illustration why. Let me say this.

[00:02:54]It is in the making of the move of this motion that once we allocate a specific responsibility and role on the deputy governor, then we can at least give the deputy governor some leverage in terms of the administration of a county. But let me tell you this madam speaker. It is common knowledge that it is contained in the constitution of Kenya that the chairman of the intergovernmental budget and economic council IBEC is the deputy president.

[00:03:23]In the days preceding to Mr. William R's administration Mr. Mr. William Lut was the deputy president when he fell out with his boss president Kenata. Ibeck was being called and nobody was attending. Despite the fact that it is contained in the constitution, not in a statute in the constitution of Kenya that the chairman of Ibec is the deputy president. When he fell out with president huru kata, nobody was attending Ibec. He was calling Ibec and only governors from his own formation.

[00:03:54]In fact, let me say it. Only governors from lift valley and a pocket of some governors from central Kenya who supported him then were attending Ibec despite the fact that it is contained in the constitution. So therefore even if we give the deputy governor a specific role to play in terms of the administration of the county government, I don't think we have cured the problem.

[00:04:17]Madam Speaker, I've seen that one of the proposal is that the deputy governor will be a member of the county executive committee and in fact ridiculously there is something that has been contained here that the deputy governor will be given notice of when the county executive committee is sitting. Do you actually know that in the constitution of Kenya article 1792 the deputy governor is an automatic member of the county executive committee. The county executive committee has h county executive committee members appointed by the by the governor and number two the deputy governor and the governor himself. So there is nothing as it is now even without this piece of leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg leg reg legislation there's nothing that stops the governor from inviting the deputy governor in county executive committee meetings but they are complaining that they have never been invited. So therefore when you say that you are compelling you you are saying that they should be invited what stops them from being invited now that is question number one. Question number two if the deputy governor have fallen out with the governor and we are saying the person who appoint this deputy governor to a substantive uh role in the county executive is the governor. So once they fall out, let me ask you madam speaker, who is the accounting officer in the departments of county governments? They are the chief officers. Who appoints chief officers? The governor. So what are we saying when we say that the deputy governor will be appointed to a substantive office and the accounting officer of that particular substantive office is a is a chief officer who has been appointed by the governor. Madam Speaker, do you actually know that uh in the years preceding 2022, it was actually an abomination for a permanent secretary, they called principal secretary for a principal secretary to even go and see deputy president then Mr. William R. despite the fact that he he was the second in command in the republic. I have told you madam speaker there is no way of registrating relationships. There is no way of regenerating love. In fact, I think the most drastic way of sorting out this problem. It is my very very considered opinion that for us to cure this problem, let us abolish and scrap the position of the deputy governor. That is the only way in my opinion we can cure this problem. In fact, why do we force people to have governors that they have not voted for? Because you see we always see that if a governor dies or if there is a vacancy in the office of a governor if our governor dies if he is is jail for more than 6 months if they become bankrupt if they bea become insane then automatically the deputy governor h takes over. What makes people believe that this deputy governor was being viewed by the voters in the same in the same view as a governor of a county? In fact, the way Senator HD has said and you know, Madame Speaker, I'm a secretary general of a party and you know how many egos are are taken care of when we are trying to put people together. So I run against somebody, I defeat that person and I take that person person to be my running mate.

[00:07:30]that person has already been rejected by the voters but because we need some convenience in terms of the clan in terms of the region then I'll pick this person to be my deputy even though he has been rejected by the voters I have taken him as my deputy once I die the person who was rejected comes comes comes up to become governor through the back door madam speaker so I feel and I strongly believe and that is why I oppose this particular piece of legislation that the only way to cure this particular problem is to abolish this position because once people fall out it does not matter whether you have given them any role in the constitution or not once they fall out I have given you examples even as the highest officers in the land I'm happy that senator Edd has actually said that when a deputy governor is mistreating a governor they actually mistreating the people of the region where that person came from I wonder whether whether where that wisdom was when they were impeaching deputy president Gadagua and William wants to say that it is not the people of that region that he impeached.

[00:08:38]You know it is the same thinking uh for the deputy governor and for the deputy president. Madam speaker I have seen that the deputy governor wants to be given a role. I think it is 32.

[00:08:56]Thank you, Madam Speaker. If you read 32G is what I was speaking about, you attend county executive committee meetings as a member of the county executive committee pursuant to article 179 of the constitution and be entitled entitled to reasonable notice of county executive committee meetings. I am asking this question as it is now without this legislation. What stops a deputy governor from attending or getting notices of these meetings is a member of the executive committee anyway with with or without this legislation.

[00:09:26]The deputy governor is a member of the county executive anyway. So this number G is a is a is is I mean uh is not supposed to be here. Now if you read number H madam speaker at from time to time the deputy governor would appear to the county assembly to respond to questions regarding the implementation of the county development projects by the county executive committee. You know the reason why the governor is invited.

[00:09:52]The CEO of a county is a governor and every time even when people appear before either the committees of parliament in senate and even in the county assembly the accounting officers are the ones who are who are dealing with the with the finances of the of the county. Madam speaker so tell me what role would a deputy governor be doing in the audit of of a county? They have absolutely no role. They are not accounting officers. They are not they have not no role in terms of implementation. They have exactly nothing to do in terms of appearing for audit questions. Assuming and I know there are some members of this of this house who have sat in the public accounts committee. Assuming we have invited count a county to come and appear before parliament and a deputy governor appears. Do you think any committee of parliament would want to listen to a deputy governor? Why would we listen to him? He has no I mean he has no executive authority of the county. Why is he appearing? What is he appearing here to do? Um number I assist the governor in the implementation of the county budget. Madame speaker since we are trying to bring this legislation to h manage the relationship between the governor and the deputy governor. Tell me if you have already fallen out how would that person assist me in the implementation of the budget?

[00:11:15]In fact, tell me how is he is is he meant to implement to to assist in implementation because you see the county is divided in departments. There is a department there, for example, there's a budget of the department for water. There is a budget for the department for sports. There's a budget for the department of roads. That department has a director. That department has a chief officer. That department has a CCM. Tell me where does the deputy governor come in in terms of implementation? Whether you like him or you don't like him, whether you hate him or you don't hate him, whether you are together, you have fallen out. How does the deputy governor come in? In fact, Madame Speaker, this this be in my opinion is very shallow.

[00:11:56]I do not see uh well, let me not say that.

[00:12:03]Uh if you read number I, it says including monitoring expenditure uh ensuring fiscal responsibility and promoting financial accountability as directed by the governor. So if you have fallen out with our governor, at what point will you be directed by the governor? How would how would a deputy governor madam speaker promote financial accountability when I say this b shallow this is what I am speaking about how does a deputy governor monitor expenditure is not an accounting officer has no executive authority how would that person monitor expenditure how would a deputy governor monitor expenditure madam speaker even if because you have been lobbed here by senator kur to come and support this bill we can't we can't just support the emlessly and just support because I mean he has told us to support and there's nothing to it. He just wants to make deputy governors feel like there something that we have done as a house and we are creating more problem problems than we are trying to cure. uh Madame Speaker serve as an executive liars on office within the county assembly for the purposes with the county assembly for the purposes of facilitating and fostering positive relationship relations between the county assembly and the county executive committee and enhancing smooth implementation of the county government's project and agenda and policies. Madam Speaker, as it is today, this role I think is the role of the county secretary. This role that has been given as role number J. So will the deputy governor now double up as a county secretary? Will the county deputy governor now be appointed as a county secretary or will the county secretary undertake the same responsibility as the deputy governor? Madam speaker, there's one thing that we can't do. We can't come here in this house just for the purposes of making deputy governors feel happy and come and support a bill that is not supposed and is not meant to cure anything. There's no way you can give a responsibility that is already being held by somebody and uh you are not saying what will happen to this other person. You actually now creating two centers of power when you make him the last one between the county assembly and the and the county executive and you have the county secretary. So what becomes of the county secretary? This madam speaker is creating a crisis on top of a crisis and is making I do not even know Mr. Madam speaker.

[00:14:34]Um number E is to engage with the public and various stakeholders on issues affecting respective county and put uh in place measures to address concerns promote transparency accountability and in the in the governance process. Madam Speaker, if I was to read word by word, slowly engage with the public today without this legislation, what stops the deputy governors from engaging the public?

[00:15:03]Why do we need this legislation for the deputy governor to engage with the public?

[00:15:08]I mean, I think that is exactly what they do every day. Even when they have fallen out, they still engage with the public whether they are together or they not together. You know, let let me tell you, Madam Speaker, the ultimate cure, and I'll say it for the upth time, the the ultimate cure if you want to get any ex executive authority in terms of appointment, in terms of uh implementation, in terms of accountability, uh monitoring of expenditure. If that is what exactly you're looking for, run for the position of governor.

[00:15:44]A deputy governor in my opinion today as it is in the constitution is a spare wheel. A spare wheel is never useful so long as the four wheels of the car are intact.

[00:15:55]As it is today, Madame Speaker, as it is today, Madame Speaker, up and up up up to until uh there's a vacancy in the office of the governor, you serve as the pleasure of the governor. That is what it is. And this bill is not making it any better in my opinion, Madam Speaker. In fact, if you read from uh A all the way to J, you'll not see anything new here. The only new thing in this bill is to say that a deputy governor will be appointed to a substantive position. First, you have not been even been told what is this substantive role that you're being given. You know, somebody can say you'll be in charge of disaster management or whatever it is. You know, it's not specified. You're not being told. It is even better in the national government because the deputy governor is in charge. The deputy president sorry is in charge of IBEC. Now in this case of the deputy governor this role that you are saying that they should be appointed into a substantive role we are not even saying what kind of role what kind of a role is it you can even be told that you'll be in charge of carrying the seat of the governor around that is a substantive role you can be told that you'll be in charge of county has carries I don't know what this is a very amigos bill madam speaker and it's not a well thought of bill this is not a bill that you can say somebody put a lot of effort in preparing this bill it's just something that was was crafted to just make governors feel happy we are them massaging egos of the governors for deputy governors for nothing and making them feel like we are doing anything. We are passing a legislation to make them feel better. We are passing a legislation to make them feel like the Senate has actually addressed their issues in this bill. Nothing has been addressed nothing. Because even the in the even in terms of implementation of this particular bill, how do you implement this bill? Madam Speaker, tell me how do you how do you tell deputy governors that they'll be in charge of expenditure in the county yet they are not accounting officers? How? I wish you even said they not they will not even be appointed as CCM they'll be appointed as chief officer because at least a chief officer is an accounting officer but you are saying that madam speaker with those very many remarks I wish to say that I vemently oppose this piece of legislation I don't think we need to amend this we need to just h do away with it and do a fresh bill and make it better senator Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, let me begin by appreciating the good senator from Meu for taking some time to try and resolve a dispute.

[00:18:41]The intention of the bill is very good.

[00:18:45]But the drafting of this bill risk creating another center of power. It will worsen the current situation of the conflict between the governors and the deputy governors. Madam Speaker, I feel the struggles, the challenges that the deputy governors go through, but honestly, we have to be very careful not to create a huge problem in the county in devolution that will may no longer be able to resolve in this house. Madam Speaker, your chair ruled that only cabinet secretaries appear before committees of this house to be able to respond to matters that affect their respective departments, not a permanent, not a a principal secretary.

[00:19:41]When we now come up with the legislation and we are not specific in terms of the roles of that deputy governor by saying that when the governor is not able to appear in the summit then you send the deputy governor without being specific it will create serious problems. Madam Speaker, Madame Speaker, the way this bill can make sense is if it is very clear and I thought that the framers of the constitution were very clear when they creating the position of the deputy governor which was clearly to deputize the governor to carry out the functions that the governor assigns the deputy governor to carry out those functions.

[00:20:33]Madam Speaker, the problem is money.

[00:20:38]Our governors are living a lavish life and of course the deputy governors envy because they have both traversed their counties seeking for votes. they have gone as a team and in most cases madam speaker and I'll try to demystify this further down in our cultures particularly the ptoralist a governor is given more support by where if he selects a deputy from a very strong clan so especially like in the Masai community we have two parallel clans we have one calledi which is the red cow >> and the other one is orangen which is the black cow. So when you look at the politics of Kajiad and Naruk in most cases if a governor or a candidate is seeking to appoint a deputy governor if he's coming from or Rocket he will actually appoint one from Odongi because then he will get the support of the rest but where problems arise is when the two of You were living in an apartment in Kilimani.

[00:22:00]>> Uh senators please please.

[00:22:03]>> Then all of a sudden you as a deputy government governor continues to live in that apartment in Kilimani but the governor who has come in now has a manicured mansion in Kar. That is where the problem is. The problem is not that the framers of the constitution particularly article 179 which seems to be misunderstood here and this is why sometimes I I wonder whether we politicians become very adamant and we refuse to take advice from the secretariat because I'm just trying to understand how the drafters of this legislation would actually repeat what is already in the law, article 1792, whereby the county governor and the deputy governor are members of the executive committee. So why would you then again come up with that provision in this law?

[00:23:05]So I don't know whether we put a lot of pressure with the drafters and we say you must add this or whether we are just trying to seek some relevance or maybe it's an issue where it was an oversight. So madame speaker I want to reiterate by saying that the intention that the deputy speaker the sponsor of the bill had is noble is very good. I feel the pressure that deputy governors have which is mostly mandatory. Some of them madam speaker we are told they are not even given fuel by their governors.

[00:23:41]If it is an issue of being very clear that because the deputy governor deputize the governor. Let us be very clear in terms of their budget so that they do not have to depend on the governor to be given money to fuel their vehicles.

[00:24:02]Madam speaker, we've had problems with the assembly where we are talking about amending the PFM act so that we can give the assemblies financial autonomy.

[00:24:14]Should we then be looking at the PFM act and saying that or this county government's act and maybe clarifying and saying the county deputy governor since he's a deputy of the governor should have a clear budget a percentage to be able to carry out functions. That is where this problem is coming. Number two, Madam Speaker, I would also feel discouraged if I've traversed the county. I've come in as your deputy and you barely even consider me. You don't give me task to do. So I'm just sitting in my office.

[00:24:51]I'm driving a fancy car. Sometimes it runs out of fuel. If we fight, I I must step too low so that you can be able to send some money for me for fuel.

[00:25:06]So I would I would cry and I would say I need to be you know I need I need my role to be clearly defined. So, Madam Speaker, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that feels that we should kill the bill. I think we should work with the draft of the bill to be able to make it uh much more constitutional because at the current drafting of this bill, it will create two centers of powers.

[00:25:36]The county governor and the deputy governor will both have their own fights. In fact, those fights will never stop. Those fights will continue.

[00:25:47]So if you want if you if we want to be able to make devolution work, the first thing that we should incorporate in this bill, which I hope that the deputy speaker will be able to think about it is a dispute resolution mechanism. when they fight between the governor and the deputy governor, there's a clause that should be added on how their dispute should be resolved. We should also be able to clarify and say because of the constitutional duty of the deputy governor that we should the assembly should define the deputy governor's budget.

[00:26:30]I support the role that every deputy governor may be assigned a docket in the county assembly to be a CC of a particular docket that will keep them busy and that will also help them be able to contribute and when they come together in the executive committee they too can be able to contribute. The biggest challenge that I see, Madam Speaker, is that when it comes to even the executive committee when they have those meetings, deputy governors never say anything.

[00:27:05]I want to remind those deputy governors who are out there to just take article 179 of the constitution and see that they are part and parcel of that executive committee. And in fact, article 179 says the executive authority of the county is vested an exercise is vested in an exercise by executive committee which it is the governor the deputy governor and the 10 cc's. So madame speaker >> Oh Mr. Speaker I I wanted to I wanted you to take note of the change of the chair.

[00:27:43]>> Thank you. you know this you change so often sometimes you don't even get to see. So m uh Mr. Speaker I think it is imperative that anyone who is given a responsibility you carry that responsibility diligently.

[00:28:02]You know there there are counties that the governor and the deputy governor work very well.

[00:28:08]My two cents on this is that before you go into a campaign, the two of you should have a clear legal binding memorandum so that we can you can run the county effectively and not create two centers of powers.

[00:28:25]Earlier, I think a couple of years ago, if it was not last year, we were asked to impeach the deputy governor of SIA.

[00:28:34]But this house did not feel that there were merits of impeaching that deputy governor. And in fact, what was happening there was an issue of personality differences, conflicts between the governor James Orango and his deputy.

[00:28:53]So should we allow ego or egoism to be able to dictate on how governance should be exercised? My answer to that is that no, Mr. Speaker.

[00:29:06]So, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to encourage my brother, the deputy speaker, to take some time and personally reread every clause because most of the clauses here that they proposing to be amended or to be included, particularly 32, they all a repetition and it's a creation of nothing but confusion.

[00:29:33]as well as another center of power.

[00:29:35]Devolution should not be about power struggle. It should be about getting services to the people. Finally, Mr. Speaker, let me repeat what I just said because it is very very important. The intention of this bill is noble, but the drafting is where the problem arises.

[00:30:00]Let us define clearly the role of the deputy governor and if we are not able to define it we just do away with it. We scrap it. Once you scrap it then we will not have these problems. If there's a change of uh governance particular if let's say for instance a governor dies then an election is held and a new governor is elected because in most cases in all the 47 counties there is no very good relationship between the governor and the deputy governor and in fact the running of the county is not determined by the two it is determined by one person. So why are we wasting time and wasting public resources? Do away with the deputy governor position, leave the governor on its own or define the budget and clearly say you will deputize the governor on ABC but not try to say you are now giving him more powers that he can appear before the summit represent the governor and you are not specific. Madam Speaker, if you read the Attorney General's Act and I will, Mr. Speaker, I'll tell you this.

[00:31:21]In the last administration, there was a huge conflict because there's a clause in the attorney general's act that says the attorney general may designate certain powers to the solicitor general. And when the attorney general designated those powers to the solicitor general, trust me, the person who was now in charge of government business was no longer the attorney general, but the solicitor general. That was a fact. So you want to create another problem here?

[00:31:52]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

[00:31:56]>> Thank you, Senator Oleina.

[00:32:00]Senator Mariam, Senator Tanga, the chair uh who proceeded uh must have had indicated the justifications why Senator Mariam would be given uh the opportunity ahead of you. I take note of the fact that from the system it's Senator Manzo who ought to have been uh given the opportunity to speak but allow allow allow the chair to interchange and permit members to contribute. Senator Mariam the floor is yours.

[00:32:35]>> Uh thank you uh Mr. Speaker for giving me this opportunity. Uh Mr. Speaker, first of all u I have to congratulate the deputy speaker for coming up with this bill. uh to solve some issues.

[00:32:53]Uh Mr. Speaker, everything has been highlighted but I wanted to highlight uh one thing instead of uh repeating myself. Mr. Speaker, in in uh primary act the role of the deputy governor it was they were given only five roles. In this one I can see almost uh 10 roles which has been given. Uh Mr. Speaker, one of them of which I have some issues about it is uh on G which is attending the county executive meeting as a member of the county executive committees. Yes, it has been highlighted in article 1792 as the members of the CCM.

[00:33:48]But uh in that article and in the in the primary bill also it has not it is silent on the attendance of uh deputy governor to attend uh these CCM meetings. uh and um that show that it is rather open for him either to attend or not. But this one is restricting him uh to attend. If he's uh on uh absent there must be a notice there must be also a notice to be given to the deputy governor because currently the CCM when they are making a meetings uh the the current governors deputy governors they are not aware so there must be also a notice to be given on H from time to time appear before the county assembly to respond to the question related regarding the imple implementation of the county development uh projects by the county executive committee. Mr. Speaker, I totally disagree with this one uh because uh the county when I take let me take you to um on that one. Uh Mr. Speaker, the chair of the CCM is the governor.

[00:35:20]If he's governor, now if you are given a priority to the county uh assembly, he appear to the county assembly any time from time to time. uh that is contrary to the appointment where they appointed as the county executive members because who appoints him as a county executive member is the governor. So the overall chair is the CEO of the county government. The CEO of county government is responsible to answer all questions to the county assembly not to him. Maybe he can appear or to the county assembly on responding to the dockets he has been given and uh the county executive committee members because when we visited county uh a county some counties we realized that CCM of health most of them is deputy governor how when the issue of uh county issue of the health issues to be raised, he can appear as a CCM not as a county uh deputy governor. So they have to specify at what time he can appear on the county uh county assembly to respond vacation to who. On the other one is on the issue of um assisting governors in implementation of the county budgets.

[00:37:05]And this one it is a blanket uh clause.

[00:37:10]He has to be specific to assisting governors in implementation of the county budget on which role he has been given a CCM because if he or she has not been given a CCM he cannot take that opportunity of implementation of the budget and monitoring of expenditure. So these were must be specifically to the role he or she has been given in the county uh CCM dockets as per the as s G serve as executive liars on office with the county assembly for proposing for the purpose of facilitating and fostering the positive relationship between the county. Uh Mr. Speaker, this one is overruled because he is not the CEO of the county executive. So the person who is county executive is a governor who who contrary to the respond to the county assembly and also make relationship with county assembly. But if you give to the county uh deputy governor, it is more of colliding of the county governor and uh the deputy governor. and what is happening even because they are fighting on that this role will come up and it it brings the conflict of interest between the two Mr. Speaker with those because others has been highlighted I don't want to repeat myself but it needs amendment on this issues I have highlighted Mr. Speaker, I support the bill with the amendment. Thank you, >> Senator Manza.

[00:38:58]>> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, uh you know, I want to go back to the constitution and uh you know the count's executive uh how the [clears throat] executive is the county executive is formed. This is an article 179 for the county governor and the deputy county governor uh chief executive and deputy chief executive of the county respectively. uh subsection five when the county governor is absent the deputy governor shall act as a county governor.

[00:39:30]And then you know also under under article 180 subsection five each county each candidate for election as a county governor shall nominate a person who is qualified for nomination for election as county governor as a candidate for deputy governor. uh and those are the professions in the constitution and uh from the proposal which has uh been proposed by Senator Cathuri, Senator for Meu who I have a lot of respect for [clears throat] uh is is seeking to delete the older section 32 uh which has five subsections and bring in a new section 32 which has got uh you know quite a number of um uh up to J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 which has had seven more functions. Uh uh Mr. Speaker, if this bill had come to the committee of justice, I believe it will be looking different. Uh unfortunately, it went to devolution. Ordinarily I think this sort of law should have come to to to to the to the to the committee of Jac. Um Mr. Speaker you would be aware that um [clears throat] the idea is very good and very normal noble and I think it should not be lost.

[00:41:01]We are aware in the Senate that quite a number of governors and deputy governors have had issues but uh how to regulate those issues and how to deal with them.

[00:41:11]First of all, you need to look at the relationship. In the event the governor is no longer governor, [clears throat] the deputy governor is automatically sworn to office. Both of them have same qualifications in terms of qualification to be to be elected as governor.

[00:41:27]Therefore, I am looking at a a situation whereby what is the idea? What was in the original idea of the original section that two? We have seen like in the case of Machakos when he MA was governor, he immediately fought with his deputy and uh even brought him here for impeachment. The Senate refused to impeach, kept him without uh an office, without a vehicle, without employees for as long as they were serving together and finally exited.

[00:42:01]his next deputy governor was appointed [clears throat] uh one as the the CC in charge of finance. Um and then you know there are many other examples in the country where we have seen deputy governors be brought here for impeachment then it works or it doesn't work and the two have to go and coexist and what tends to happen when the governor differs with the deputy uh then it seems to to be a a problem and in a lot of cases like in the case of honorable Savula and his governor you know both of them are shareholders of their government I would equal. She orders each person contributed to the existence of the other and you know honorable Savi having been a member of parliament and having been a journalist and is very fast with many things. I believe the two of them gel very well and help each other very well and are able to share power but it was the idea for governor and deputy to share power equally. uh I don't think so although such arrangements can be done and even that has been the situation in the national government in Kenya since devolution came and since we we have a presidential system uh each election uh the election of presidenturu and William Rift 50/50 shareholders of their government similarly at the first round and even um a second round and even currently the election of William president and his first the secondary deputy governor of the republic. It was a 50/50 arrangement. If anything, uh Kashiagua had brought you know more numbers than the other. And similarly with the county governments there's nothing to call out of order. I know you don't like the second deputy president but even even when you um cherai when you become there's no point of >> senator senator man. So let me allow Senator Charge to raise his point of order.

[00:44:10]Senator Medu and Senator Tanga.

[00:44:13]The chair is one and I have allowed Senator Cher to raise his point of order. Senator Cher proceed. It is the chair to determine whether it is a point of order or otherwise not.

[00:44:31]proceed. I proceed.

[00:44:34]>> Uh, Mr. Speaker, I rise understanding order 105 on responsibility for a statement of fact. But Mr. Speaker, straight to the point, have you heard my brother, senior council, Senator Manzo, not senior colleague, by alluding and stating that the arrangement between President William Rut and the impeached deputy president Gashaga was 50/50. Can he table the evidence to show that there was a 50/50 arrangement? Mr. Speaker, sir, as per the standing order 105, I yield back the mic. Mr. Speaker, sir, >> Senator Manzo, you've heard the point of order. Are you able to table any document to that effect? If not, you can, Mr. Speaker, substantiate it other Mr. Speaker, I I can't table, but it's a matter of fact, I do I do withdraw that.

[00:45:22]But the the way they shared government was a matter of fact the the point I was trying to drive in Mr. Speaker is that when when there is a president and deputy or when there's a governor and deputy sometimes there are political >> senator Senator Manzo take your seat again what's the point of order Senator Kenya >> uh m Mr. Speaker, I'm raising on a point of order 105 statement of fact. M Mr. Speaker, it is so obvious after it was um want to agree with Senator Manzo that it was 50/50 a member of I was a member of UDA and Mr. Speaker, I want to to state that after they disagreed, Mr. speaker the deputy president Gashagu and the president that is what caused what happened in Kala Mr. Speaker and you can see exactly >> what is your point of order agreement Mr. Speaker >> what is your point of order >> I'm confirming what >> take your seat >> I'm confirming what is saying it was 5050 Mr. Speaker >> take your seat >> Senator Manzo proceed >> thank you out of order I'm just saying Mr. speaker ordinarily uh in the elections and I'm sure some of us who want to run for governor one day will find themselves in that reality you are deputy may you may have to do a political agreement and I think this is what drives the problem of election because ordinarily under the law the governor is supposed to take full charge of of of of the government and the the deputy is a principal assistant and I think this is what uh our Good Senator Katuri was trying to and the deputy speaker was trying to address. We know they have been concerned. I wish you could see the public participation report and how different deputy governors responded. I have heard this cries myself. I have helped settle situations where a governor and a deputy have differed and the county is suffering. The development is not going as the political situation has become hostile. Uh and eventually Mr. speaker, we must find a solution to this. And uh having got [clears throat] to find a solution, uh I think what we should happen uh what we should do, Mr. Speaker, at the third reading, we need to reddraft uh this this um uh amendment bill to suit the situation. And that's why public perspective the report and the adoption of the feedback from the people. This house has already now given feedback and luckily we've got very experienced people in this house. Senator Sang and Senator Meu have had an opportunity to serve in counties and understand this relationship very well. They have contributed very well and senator has contributed very well and I think Tanga will even do better after me and I've also heard Senator Mariam who has a lot of experience from uh the county where she comes from. So if you if you listen and follow keenly to people who are in this house and have worked in county governments before and they have done so in senior positions, they are able or or representatives. I wish Senator Morago was here who was also um an MCA in Kirinyaga County and now wants to become governor there and I'm sure he'll be a very good governor. It means that we we have to draw that experience and then using uh that experience and especially from Senator Mendo and Senator Tanga redraft this and come up with something which uh gives a solution to what we are trying to form a problem. Uh although Senator Me has put it very well is like trying to cure diarrhea by blocking the exit you increase the problems and the person is likely to die. So we are likely. Yeah, we are likely. I'm just quoting.

[00:49:24]>> Yes, I'm just quoting. But I'm just saying uh you the problem is likely to become more and therefore we don't want to increase the problems between the governor and the county governor. We as a senate who believe in devolution want to solve this problem, want to make sure that counties uh go on well. But I want to believe if from my mu experience >> now >> Senator allow Senator Manzo to conclude on his allow Senator >> I'm just about to wind up and I'm coming to the positive side of things. I want to say that in Kenya there has been many counties there have been many counties there have been many counties Senator Manzo, you are addressing the chair. You're not addressing Senator Cherry.

[00:50:17]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:50:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm addressing the nation under stated facts as a in case I want.

[00:50:25]>> Yes.

[00:50:26]>> You are on the floor.

[00:50:27]>> Yes.

[00:50:28]>> You're not supposed to talk to your colleague. Senator proceed.

[00:50:31]>> But the interruptions are so much I don't know whether Senator wants to run this Senate alone. Then you should be talking alone if you cannot allow others to think. Senator Manza chair chair I want to conclude and say there are many examples of good working relationships in many counties in the country. One of it is McQueeni. Uh you you you you know that uh the the governor of McQueeni and the deputy governor of Mueni in McQueen practice is the is the governor is a male then the the deputy is female. If uh if if in future if a governor will be female the deputy will be male to to balance gender parity and what has been happening is like the current situation we have a deputy governor who is a former county commissioner and with long experience in government and and she's come out very hardy in terms of stabilizing the government and making sure uh technically the government is well run. In fact, when we have the national days, they are much better than the previous one. The previous one, the national days, you would find the governor and and the county commissioner and a few people, but now it's a full-fledged, you know, occasion in McQueen and it's a good example of where governor and deputy governor can work together. I believe even without these regulation, uh many governors and many deputy governors can work together. We cannot really regulate or you enact laws to regulate a relationship. It has to be created. Uh the people must be willing.

[00:52:03]There must be respect between the governor and the deputy and there must be space and allow the deputy to deputize the governor. If that happens, I'm sure there will be no problems.

[00:52:14]There will be no need for this regulation. But unfortunately, in quite a number of counties, there have been problems. We have seen a governor bringing a deputy here for impeachment.

[00:52:23]Some have successfully been impeached, others not. Therefore, there is a need to make this law better, relook at it, a third reading and make sure that it serve the country. I thank you, Mr. Speaker. I support >> Senator Tanga.

[00:52:44]>> Thank you very much, Mr. M speaker as I also contribute to this important bill and this bill is seeking to give powers to the deputy governors Mr. Speaker and Mr. Speaker, I happen to be a member of the devolution committee and in the devolution committee we went through this bill and we give our observations and of course we also give um our recommendations Mr. Speaker but Mr. Speaker, before probably I say whether I'm supporting or opposing this bill, I just wanted to think it to think in your mind.

[00:53:33]Can you imagine having a deputy governor like Senator Cher?

[00:53:38][laughter] So now with that in your mind, Mr. Speaker, you realize you do not need this kind of law, Mr. Speaker. Because Mr. Speaker, the law is very clear.

[00:53:55]>> Senator Tanga, I do not want to allow Senator Cher to interrupt you.

[00:54:00]>> I I I do not find anything offensive with referring Senator Cher Gay in any other manner unspecific as you have done.

[00:54:10]>> Yeah.

[00:54:10]>> But watch the speech that you proceeded.

[00:54:15]>> Thank you. content especially in reference to your colleague senator or any other person who is not in this house.

[00:54:21]>> Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. I'm well guided.

[00:54:25]>> I'm well guided. Now Mr. Speaker, I want to give you a bit of the genesis of this bill because I do understand because it came to the committee of devolution many months ago.

[00:54:40]This bill was supposed to cure what was happening in Meu County then. Mr. Speaker, if you remember very well, there were issues of governor and the deputy. The deputy governor, the governor was impeached about four times and returned to the office and they thought they would bring a bill that would create a core governor. And this is the bill, Mr. Speaker.

[00:55:09]Mr. Speaker, we cannot cure mistrust with the law. Just like Senator Meu once told me and I believe probably he said it on the floor of this house, you cannot force people and especially politicians to love each other. So this bill, Mr. Speaker, and I like using analogies, is like the bestman of a certain wedding requesting some roles from the bridegroom. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, when you ask to be a deputy governor, your work is only one. You are a governor designate just in case the governor dies or the governor is impeached. Period. And if you feel you're good to be a governor, run as a governor, Mr. Speaker, the constitution, and that's why I want to declare this law, Mr. Speaker. This law is seeking to amend the constitution through the back door. Mr. Speaker, if you read the constitution article 179 2A, it says the county executive committee consist of the county governor and the deputy county governor. Already the constitution is saying so why do we say it in this law? Why are we saying this law that he should be attending these cabinet meetings? He should be given enough time prior time. You're actually telling the governor be writing to the deputy to invite him to the meeting.

[00:56:39]They have their own mechanism. Mr. Speaker, if you read the same article 1795 when the county governor is absent, the deputy county governor shall act as the county governor. That is the only role the constitution gives the deputy governor while the governor is absent.

[00:57:02]If the governor is present, just go home and rest. Mr. Speaker, this is the constitution. Why are we amending the constitution by telling the governor the deputy governor to be a core governor?

[00:57:15]So I do understand what they were trying to cure then. And since it was cured and the person whose law was supposed to help is already a governor, can we just withdraw this bill and say if you want to be a governor, just run as a governor. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, the law is already available.

[00:57:35]This law is in the county government act. If you read the law, section 32 of the county government act which is being amended by this law. Mr. speaker and you can see it has been amended by so many classes from A all the way to Mr. Speaker J.

[00:57:59]This law removes one of the fundamental h sections that the law created when they got to know that the deputy governor is not a co-governor. He only acts when the governor is away. So if the governor is available then he can only do what he has been assigned by the governor himself. Mr. Speaker, let me tell you what they remove with this law.

[00:58:29]Section 324 of the county government act says when acting remember the law says he should act when the governor is absent. When acting in office as contemplated in article 1795, the one I've just read of the constitution, the deputy governor shall not exercise any powers of the governor to nominate, appoint or dismiss that are assigned to the governor under the constitution or other written law.

[00:59:01]This law has deleted that clause. What does that tell you? They want the deputy governor to start dismissing the deputy governor to start employing. So we are creating two centers of power trying to cure the problem that was in Meu that probably was cured when they already impeached the governor. But I don't believe they it was cured. Mr. Speaker, if you read that section again 325, the governor shall not delegate to the deputy governor or any any of the functions referred to in subsection 4.

[00:59:39]So the law is even telling the governor you cannot even delegate that. Now here we are as a senate as a senate we are now creating two centers of power trying to tell the deputy governor that he can even manage budgets and finances. That is the work of the county treasury.

[00:59:57]You know if you want to be a county treasury nothing stops you from talking to your governor and then the governor can make you a CC for treasury. Nothing stops. I am a former MCA and Senator Mahazo has told us that we have a lot of experience. I believe in this house.

[01:00:12]Nobody has more experience when it comes to devolution than myself. I've been an MCA. I've been a CC executive in the cabinet and now here as a senator, Mr. Speaker. So what I'm trying to say today is that we should not try to legislate relationship.

[01:00:29]Let if they're working together, work together. If they're not working together, somebody can resign. You are not supposed to be in an office if probably you are not working. and Senator Alama although I don't agree with him in most cases he has said actually the best thing is to scrap this seat of the county deputy governor and I support if we cannot cure the relationship let's scrap that and that is the amendment of the constitution let's remove this seat so that if you impeach a governor let's people be given a new mandate to go and elect a different a different governor actually so many impeachment that have come here and you'll agree with me Mr. Speaker they have been induced by deputy speakers I mean by deputy governors so actually the problem is them because they want the governor to go so that they can take the seat so Mr. Speaker as I conclude I would want to say the problem is more political than legal Mr. speaker and since we cannot cure political problems through the law, let those who want to run as deputy governor know that the boss is the governor. The law gives the governor more powers that he can delegate some if he may. If you remember that gentleman who said it says shall or may. This one says may not shall. Mr. Speaker, so it depends on what the governor wants his deputy uh to to to do. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, if you look at H on the amendment, it says from time to time, appear before the county assembly to respond to questions. I mean, nothing stops him today to appear before the county assembly. Actually, the county assembly can summon anyone. I think that is article 185 of the constitution. If the senior council can help me senate of Jenna but that is what the law says that anybody can appear nobody stops them.

[01:02:40]What this deputy governors are trying to do they try to get powers so that there can be two powers h centers of power and they try to because they are unable to impeach the governors. Now then there can be push and pull between these two people. Now who will we be summoning to appear before the Senate as committees?

[01:03:00]Will we be inviting the deputy or will we be inviting the governor? Remember Mr. Speaker, we have had problem with the county assemblies whereby we have had two speakers, two county clerks and even two assemblies.

[01:03:18]Can you imagine what this law would do?

[01:03:20]we will be dealing with these issues where a certain deputy governor has already taken the whole county headquarters to a different place. Now we have two governors who are dealing with the county. So I oppose this law unemploy you try to cure was cured. So we withdraw this bill and we have only one year to the election. then people can appoint deputy governors who are willing to work together. If you don't work together and and I heard Senator Senator um for Migori, Senator Eddie, he was talking about that removing a governor from the Kura side is removing the whole community.

[01:04:08]And you know, Mr. speaker that's the exactly thing that we are trying to say here when the deputy president of this republic was being removed removing the deputy president is removing Murima is removing the whole community so Mr. speaker because I do understand I do understand this was supposed to cure something very different and it has been cured. I rest my case and oppose this bill which has been seceded by Senator Cher and I will tell you you will be allowed all of you.

[01:04:46]>> You'll be allowed.

[01:04:49]Senator Tom agenda.

[01:04:55]>> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, >> I should speak.

[01:05:06]>> From the dispatch. Mr. Speaker, I I with a very heavy heart. I agree with Senator Tangwa on uh on a number of questions. The first question, Mr. Speaker, is that a close reading of article 179 that confers executive power to the CEO of the county who is the governor. And if you read in there, deputy CEO clearly shows that the governor while holding the power in the county to appoint and to execute all that has to be done in the county has the mandate to delegate executive power to the deputy governor.

[01:05:53]And Mr. Speaker, what this bill does is to try to designate or to direct the governor to share executive power with the deputy governor and the committee in the county, the CC's as proper designated by the consume. Mr. Speaker, this is an amendment is an unconstitutional amendment to the constitution. The intention of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is to undermine the very provisions that the constitution clearly provides for. And the proper way, Mr. Speaker, to elevate or to otherwise deal with the power of deputy governors, Mr. Speaker, is to bring an amendment to the constitution. Short of that amendment, Mr. Speaker, it is impossible through a bill that is brought before Senate to kind of recraft, Mr. Speaker, the constitution in a mand that is unconstitutionally trying to deviate from constitutional provisions. Mr. Speaker, this bill and again, let me also agree with with Senator Th on this. This bill was brought against the backdrop of the impeachment of the governor for meu whose action is still in court. And I must say that uh uh at some point she was my client and the governor was since replaced with the deputy governor who is the substantive governor of Meu County though I understand that governor has suddenly become very popular after her impeachment. But Mr. Mr. Speaker, the point here is that this bill may have served its purpose and should have been dropped at this point because it is it was tailor made for purposes of Meu County and did not succeed at the time. Mr. Speaker, we have examples of counties where deputy governors and governors sit in well and work together for the people. Let me give you an example, Mr. speaker of my own county Kisumu where the deputy governor Dr. Willie is sitting pretty.

[01:08:17]He's a sitting pretty d. He's out there.

[01:08:20]He only does assignments given to him by the governor. Other times he's out there. He's idle. He does not perform any duty unless governor assigns him that role. So that shows you that deputy governors who are not overzillas who are not too keen to carve their own space work well with governors who are in office. A strong deputy governor and a strong governor can hardly survive in the same space. If you look at the example of McQueen, honorable speaker, you find that McQueen is a a shining example of a perfect coexistence of the governor and deputy governor. Look at Kakamega. But where Mr. Speaker in Sier for instance you had uh deputy governor brought to Senate for impeachment by governor oro because the deputy governor was trying to enjoy was trying to carve out gubanatorial powers from the governor which he cannot enjoy unless article 179 is amended. Let us not Mr. speaker cleverly take away powers of the CEO of the county through a bill or through legislation and purport to direct through the back door a governor to give powers to the deputy governor including powers for instance as the bill designates for a governor to to appoint a deputy governor as a CC that is shared power you cannot sneak and share power of a CEO from the back door. Let it be done through the the the front door. Mr. Speaker, as the law mandates, Mr. Speaker, I oppose this bill. It is utterly unconstitutional and should collapse on his backside and die. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

[01:10:18]>> Thank you, Senator Professor Tommoenda.

[01:10:22]Senator Quinoa.

[01:10:37]Speaker, Speaker, Speaker, Governor Speaker Speaker Speaker Speak M Senator Senator Speaker County speaker.

[01:12:56]Speaker, Speaker, speaker, speaker.

[01:13:32]Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Speaker, speaker.

[01:14:26]Fore speech.

[01:14:44]Governor Governor Speaker, speaker.

[01:15:29]Speaker, speaker.

[01:15:40]VTV Speaker, Speaker, speaker.

[01:16:46]M Speaker, Speaker, speaker.

[01:17:40]Senator, Madam Speaker, Senator Cher Gay, what's your point of order? Senator Ken, take your seat.

[01:18:16]>> Mr. Speaker, I raise understanding on 101 sub article or subsection six. A senator shall refer to another senator by the title senator. Mr. Speaker, sir, have you heard the distinguished senator of of like keep referring to me as chair gay? Can he abide by the standing orders and you know he's a ranking member in fact he should be thrown out because he's >> gave made your point uh I must admit that uh for the number of times I've heard Senator Ken speaking and making reference to colleague senators I haven't heard him not making reference to them as senator so and so is in order proceed senator speaker Speaker, you know the unfortunate thing with you is uh when you are given the leeway by the chair by noting that you are in order to make uh reference to your colleague by name and title you've gone overboard. I do not want to permit an interruption to your contribution, but you need to also comply with the standing orders by speaking to the chair, not your colleague, Senator.

[01:20:23]M M speaker.

[01:20:54]Speaker in a shirt in a tana Speaker Speaker Sharia Thank you, Senator Kenya. Senator Kajang.

[01:21:46]Mr. Speaker, I also rise to contribute to the proposed a amendments to the county government's act. Mr. Speaker, the county government's act needs a thorough audit. It needs thorough interrogation. 10 years after devolution, Mr. Speaker, this Senate ought to do this nation a favor by looking at the entire act holistically instead of in peace bill amendments. Mr. Speaker, I have noted that today we are discussing amendments to the section of the act that relates to deputy governors, but there's also another legislative proposal in the order paper to make further amendments to the county government's act. Mr. Speaker, how I wish we could perhaps sometimes tie some of these things up so that we have a comprehensive review and amendment to the county government's act. So speaker, the role of deputy governor is clearly spelt out in the constitution, article 1794, which I like quoting whenever governors appear before my committee. I remind them that the county governor is the chief executive officer of the county and it is for that reason that we expect them to respond to all issues raised in financial statements in performance reports in um uh in in budget implementation reports the chief executive officer that is where the buck stops. The deputy governor is designated as a deputy chief executive of the county. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to repeat what everyone else has said, but I want to pose a question on article 1795, which says that when the county governor is absent, absent, the deputy county governor shall act as a county governor.

[01:23:43]How do we define the absence of a county governor? Is it when the governor has gone to watch World Cup in the US, is that governor absent? Is it when the governor has left his county and gone to another county like Governor Orango was in Homer Bay today and caused a lot of chaos in Homer Bay? Would the people of SIA deem him to be absent from CIA? Mr. Speaker, what we need to do is to have clear definition of absence of a county governor. Absence could be through impeachment, through resignation.

[01:24:21]Absence could be vacation of office through the means that have been defined in the constitution. But there's also the absence which in corporate governance or in uh in in contemporary employment practice could be referred to as leave. Mr. Speaker, a chief executive officer as defined in this constitution must be subjected to certain human resource policies and practices. It is not possible that a CEO can be on duty from the first day of his election to the last day of their election. We as state officers or members of parliament, we go on recess. This house does not sit from the first day of election to the last day of election. Is it viable that a governor can be present and able to discharge their duties 24/7 for 5 years?

[01:25:17]Mr. Speaker, there's something called leave that even our employees are subjected to. There was a petitioner who brought a petition here that parliament should enact legislation to provide uh provisions for governors to take leave.

[01:25:33]And so if a governor takes leave, it could be medical leave. I saw the governor of Moranga took medical leave.

[01:25:40]He had an injury and he assigned his deputy uh the power to act in his absence. We have seen governors go on maternity leave and Mr. Speaker it is very good and it's a wonderful thing if a governor can go on maternity leave I am sure there are governors who have gone on paternity leave when you go on leave is that absence Mr. Speaker in corporate practice that is absence but even in that situation of absence there is temporary incumbency and Mr. Speaker, what happens in national government should be applied to the county governments. Temporary incumbency is handled in article 134 of the constitution when he talks about the absence of a president and we have seen that exercised when Uhuru Kenyata had to go to the HEG to respond to summons of the international criminal court. The constitution foraw that in a situation like that of absence the person who steps in the person who steps in to fill that absence cannot have unfettered powers.

[01:26:58]Mr. Speaker, in the national government case, we said that a temporary president arising out of the absence of the substantive president cannot nominate judges, cannot appoint ambassadors, cannot appoint cabinet secretaries, cannot confer honors and cannot exercise the power of mercy. What we need to do is to define absence and define powers of a deputy governor in in in a case of temporary incumbency.

[01:27:30]Would a deputy governor acting under temporary incumbency therefore appear before this Senate and its committees? Mr. Speaker, that could be limited the same way we have limited the powers of a deputy president under article 134. For me that is the clarity that is required. Otherwise everything else that we are trying to do here is trying to dictate to a governor how to delegate. Mr. Speaker I would further want to make a proposal that we need to go back to the article um 185.

[01:28:07]Article 185 of the constitution Mr. speaker talks about a person or talks about each candidate for election as county governor shall nominate a person who's qualified for nomination for election as county governor as a candidate for deputy governor.

[01:28:26]Who nominates a person to be deputy governor? It is not the political party.

[01:28:32]It is not the assembly. It is not any other person. It is the governor. It is the candidate for election as county governor who nominates a person who in their considered opinion is qualified for nomination for election as county governor as a candidate for deputy governor. Mr. Speaker, if we had an opportunity to rewrite this constitution, I would rewrite article 185 and say that immediately after an election, the candidate who is elected governor shall nominate a person who is qualified for nomination for election as deputy governor because when they go into a joint ticket, Mr. Speaker, there is a perception of being shareholders and there's a per perception of a 50/50 government. Mr. Speaker, I have seen that in Homer Bay County, the deputy governor resigned a few months ago and the problem was there was a perception that there were two uh powerhouses that went into an election, won an election and so people thought that uh the governor and deputy are co-governors.

[01:29:37]There's nothing like that, Mr. Speaker.

[01:29:39]Even if the party requested the governor to nominate somebody, the responsibility under article 185 falls and lies with the county governor. If it is the duty of the county governor to nominate a person, Mr. Speaker, I would also rewrite this constitution to allow for the governor to rescend the nomination of a deputy governor subject to approval of the county assembly so that we don't have to subject deputy governors to all these circus that we have seen them being brought to the senate for impeachment. If we do not amend article 185 as I have proposed, Mr. Speaker, perhaps we should amend it to say that where a candidate for election as county governor is required to nominate a person, that person should be of the other gender. That also will advance certain principles that are in this constitution that we've been unable to achieve. Mr. Speaker, there are two uh functions I have seen some county governments assigned to the deputy governor. There are counties that have said the county budget and economic forum shall be chaired by the deputy governor. Of course, statute requires the governor to chair it, but in many cases, some governors have allowed their deputy governors to chair it. Similar to the intergovernmental budget and economic committee that is at the national government that statute requires to be chaired by the deputy president. I have also seen some counties in their county disaster uh management acts designate the chair of the county disaster committee to the deputy governor. However, it is not possible for Senate sitting in Nairobi to say that a specific role must be assigned to a deputy governor because Mr. Speaker, the constitution again article 1792 talks about the county executive committee consisting of the county governor and the deputy county governor and other members appointed and approved by the county assembly. It would be good practice to ensure that the deputy governor has got something substantive to keep them busy. But at the end of the day, before you apply for a position, please read the job description. this Senate and many members, pioneer members of this Senate suffered from that. I was in the 11th parliament, Mr. Speaker. And every day when senior members rose to speak, they were lamenting about the the limited powers of members of the Senate.

[01:32:13]And people kept reminding them, you are the ones who wrote this constitution.

[01:32:16]Many of them wrote this constitution.

[01:32:18]How come you didn't know that the Senate that you created was the upper house in u in in words, but the lower house in in uh in in reality? So if you are going to go for the position of deputy governor, please read the constitution so that you do not have complaints and tussles thereafter believing that you are a co-governor or a deputy governor. And I know that sometimes it's political compromises and political settlements.

[01:32:47]But the reality is once the election is over, a bus can only have one driver and the deputy can only step in when that driver is absent. And unfortunately, most governors choose that if they're going to be absent, the bus would rather stop and wait for them to come back. And that is why we need to allow governors to have a framework for going on leave, a framework uh for definition of absence and then a framework for deputy governors to take over in the case of temporary incumbency. Mr. Speaker, uh because I want my other colleagues to comment on this, I would also want to request deputy governors to read the 48 laws of power by Robert Green. Law number one in the 48 laws of power is never outshine the master. And that seems to be the problem in many cases where we have very competent deputy governors, some of them who are technocrats serving under governors who are largely politicians who know how to get the vote. And sometimes once they've gotten the vote, they have no idea what to do with it. And you find that it is a deputy governor who knows what to do after the victory. And so people start getting this perception that the deputy governor is becoming more popular, is becoming more effective, and so you end up with some impeachment motions that are not very useful to the counties uh in question. Mr. Speaker, I believe that there is more we can do to strengthen the office of the deputy governor, but not in the manner that has been presented here. And uh I do hope that at some point we'll rewrite article 185 either to provide for gender pairing or to allow for governors to appoint deputy governors after an election. Mr. Speaker, with those remarks, I oppose this amendment.

[01:34:38]>> Thank you, Senator Kadang. Uh Senator Muma.

[01:34:45]Uh thank you honorable speaker for an opportunity to contribute uh to this uh honorable speaker. I'm the vice chairperson of the devolution and intergovernmental relations uh committee and we looked at this uh bill.

[01:35:02]uh when the mover moved the bill today uh for second reading I think he may have given the impression that the committee may have agreed with it as it is uh because it's one year since we actually submitted our report nearly one year uh honorable speaker I will actually share that report in the house business committee forum so that members who have not contributed to this uh uh uh debate can also see what the committee uh looked at and what the committee uh uh recommendations were. Uh honorable senator um honorable uh speaker there are a number of things. Uh clearly we have a number of a problem a huge problem between many governors and many deputy governors. That is the reason why deputy governors came together to try and see whether they can uh find a way and get assigned uh uh uh functions through the law.

[01:36:21]uh even as they're doing so one can kind of empathize with them on the basis that the office of the deputy governor is a public office that is a public resource.

[01:36:37]So to a certain extent it is wasteful expenditure to actually put somebody in office being paid public resources and doing nothing.

[01:36:49]I think it is something that needs to be dealt with.

[01:36:54]But as colleagues have spoken before and I support what uh Senator Kajang, Senator Meu, Senator uh um I think all the senators that nearly all of them except for a few have said we need to be careful about rewriting the constitution through this law.

[01:37:20]But even as we're being careful in rewriting the constitution, we also need to be careful to ensure that we don't get into an overreach.

[01:37:33]It is the role of parliament to make laws but it is not the role of parliament to do executive assignment of roles.

[01:37:45]And every executive has one center of power, one CEO.

[01:37:52]That's why honorable speaker 2013 to 2022 we had a president and a deputy president in office for 10 years.

[01:38:06]But when you hear the deputy then deputy president speaking, he speaks as if he was never part of that government. And the only reason the world allows him to do that because the back stops with the president.

[01:38:22]So he's able to criticize what President Uhuru did. He was part of that government. He sat in that cabinet.

[01:38:32]And the only reason you might entertain that is because the back stops with the president.

[01:38:40]that our constitution did not split the country to say the deputy president will be in charge of this this and the other.

[01:38:48]Therefore when we are evaluating performance of a government we are looking at what the the portion of the president and the portion of the DG or of the deputy president. What the DG's want us to do is to get jump into the arena of executive implementation of its mandate and help the governor to assign tasks to them. I don't think we can do so. But we must acknowledge and be able to tell the governors that it is also wasteful expenditure to have an office that is receiving salaries and parks but which is not intended to actually uh uh do uh anything which is supposed to just sit there. I think that is something that we would need to look at.

[01:39:50]Um, honorable speaker, when you look through the committee that we made, maybe our recommendation might just simply be one because a second the second one was just reiterating the fact that the governor may delegate work. a provision that is already within the county government act.

[01:40:21]What we did recommend after looking at all the clauses, we actually proposed that we delete the clauses as provided and amend the um amend section 32 of the county government's act to require the governor to assign responsibilities to the deputy governor and to ensure that the office of the deputy governor is adequately facilitated.

[01:40:56]Having looked at everything, we felt that that statutory requirement in broad terms may very well be the one that will then make the governor to actually assign responsibility to that office and to ensure that that office is running for purposes of carrying out that responsibility. I think that is the best arrangement that we can ever go. But we cannot go further to say please assign him to do this. Please I assign him to do the other. I think all of those clauses if we go about it that way would be crossing the line. the Senate would now have decided to join the office of the governor and to try and assist governor to run their counties. And we did this knowing very well that it is not a problem with the law because we have county governments where the governor and the deputy governor have are working pretty well. they have assigned tasks to uh uh deputy governors and those deputy governors are carrying out those tasks.

[01:42:13]We have counties where deputy governors are chairing committees. They are they have been assigned a docket to run and they are running those dockets and delivering on their mandates without a problem.

[01:42:28]So we cannot say that the problem that currently exists as somebody said that the love affair has now failed and divorce is ensuring that the Senate can cure that kind of relationship with this kind of law.

[01:42:46]So we are requesting as a committee if you look at the detail and we met quite a number of people and we have detailed