PLAN B #856: Are We Witnessing a New Form of Racism?

[00:00:00]the things that they say old guy plus old guys. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not racist to say something.

[00:00:07]>> I try to find out about these videos. I cannot find them online. There's another layer to this showing up online and it's targeted towards the India Indians >> obviously because they have been taken down. Nobody can actually describe them anymore. They were basically saying things that like Singapore is being overrun by India. They were also saying that Singapore should belong to the Chinese. So this not even like Singaporeans complaining about Indians coming or whatever. is basically Chinese citizens from another country coming to talk about >> oh citizens I mean it's not any medical party it's not coordinator no conversations with my neighbors bro no sometimes I feel uncomfortable the things that they say is old guy plus old guys yeah I'm sorry I'm not racist to say something he will share a lot of things anybody says that Singapore belongs should belong to the Chinese should belong to the Malays should belong to the Indians everyone will say [ __ ] no like I mean I I proudly say that because I think as a Singaporean we we are Singaporean first. We are the only country apart from China in the world that is Chinese majority.

[00:01:06]>> To them like we are basically like >> damn >> we are the same. Recently I'm also noticing a trend like even local Indians are starting to kind of like not say draw lines but they're starting to make a distinction between like yes there are local Indians who've been here for maybe like four five generations and then you also have like newer generation uh Indians. So in a sense culturally very different things like queuing like there's basically no queueing culture in India. None of this is new. Anti-Indian sentiments have been in Singapore for like at least 10 years.

[00:01:32]>> Yeah. Actually yeah >> cuz there was a period if you remember where local Chinese also really didn't like PRC. Talk very loud always shouting. I studied Hindi for like 3 years of my life. I've spent time in India. I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with the culture. In fact the culture is a very rich culture. But it's unfortunate when these kind of things come in and then like the whole community's reputation gets gets trashed for what it's our country like they need to learn.

[00:01:55]>> I think your sentiment resonate with a lot of local Singaporeans like you come here you learn how to live here.

[00:02:00]>> Yeah.

[00:02:01]>> I'm Z >> and I'm DMA.

[00:02:02]>> Racism has evolved.

[00:02:05]>> Uh you know back then when we talk about racial riots you know we like uh at time I mean sometime in Singapore's history.

[00:02:14]>> You were not alive back then.

[00:02:15]>> I wasn't. I wasn't. There was this procession that was done to commemorate Prophet Muhammad's birthday and then there was some alter uh altercation between the Malays and >> people died. People died.

[00:02:24]>> Yeah, people died and uh there was a dark uh day of history.

[00:02:28]>> Actually, if you want to learn about that, right, like there's actually a museum in Singapore that >> that showcases this. I think it's like the something about multicultural something. It's it's near um Amoy.

[00:02:38]>> Mhm.

[00:02:39]>> Like I know cuz I've been there before like and some of the organizations I'm with, we've organized walks there. So we've brought people basically to these museums.

[00:02:47]>> So today racism uh has evolved. I think uh a few weeks back we spoke to uh Jose Shazwan who did the aan and then uh another form of racism islamophobia.

[00:03:01]Yes. Uh and then we covered uh there's this particular trend where you know you have uh Tik Tockers just gawking at their at their cars and then when the camera pans over and then show their expensive luxury rides. Okay.

[00:03:16]>> And when Malays did it they got a lot of thresh whatever but when the Chinese did it >> no such [ __ ] So I think uh today it was interesting to see many MPs come out >> and not today I mean several days back >> uh speaking about how there were some videos originating from China >> and uh they were blocked actually uh I think government kind of >> so so you can no longer access them in Singapore. Uh they are I mean like 14 videos or something. I've not seen them cuz they were in Chinese. This targeted the Indian community >> as in they I mean okay they targeted the Chinese community in the sense that they are meant to be consumed by the Chinese community >> but they were targeting Indians in a sense that they were basically bashing Indians. I try to find out about these videos. I cannot find them online.

[00:04:06]>> You won't be able to find it. You won't be able to give like a commentary.

[00:04:09]What's this view?

[00:04:09]>> Obviously, because they have been taken down, nobody can actually describe them anymore cuz nobody can see them. But um what the >> in essence >> Yeah. So they were basically saying things that like uh oh Singapore is being taken over by the Chinese. Yeah.

[00:04:21]By by the Indians, sorry. So like Singapore is being overrun by Indians.

[00:04:24]>> India Indians or Singaporean Indians?

[00:04:27]>> By Indians. And then and on top of that they were also saying that ch like Singapore should belong to the Chinese because >> it is it is majority you know like it is a it is Chinese land basically something like that kind of sentiment.

[00:04:38]It was very dangerous sentiment like if you are Singaporean >> and I think like I can really dare say that like most Singaporeans will recall you know if anybody says that Singapore belongs should belong to the Chinese should belong to the Malays should belong to the Indians >> like everyone will say [ __ ] no like I mean I think that's I I can proudly say that because I think as a Singaporean that is is baked into us you know we we are Singaporean first not your racial community but these kind of sentiments especially when they origin overseas cuz I mean obviously the content itself is really quite troubling but >> it's also the fact that they originated from China. So this not even like Singaporeans complaining about Indians being coming or whatever. It's basically Chinese citizens from another country coming to talk about >> oh citizens I mean it's not by any party it's not coordinated.

[00:05:27]>> No no no. So so they they were quick to clarify that as in the government was quick to clarify that they don't suspect that it was Chinese government doing this. M.

[00:05:34]>> So it's not like as if it's a coordinated attack, >> but the timing the timing of it like the there were 14 videos being blocked like these videos were released at the same time.

[00:05:43]>> No. So I mean they probably were monitoring and then at one point they realized that okay like this is getting a bit out of hand so let's just block all. Um they didn't specific cuz we don't know like is it one video but like release 14 times like cuts of it or >> campaign like this monthl long campaign kind of sh. So, so that's the thing. We don't really know, but I don't think it's a campaign cuz they did they said that there's no evidence of it being coordinated. But if you remember, there was also a time where we had like Malaysia's Malaysian sentiments kind of like creeping in talking about like uh how Malay Malay like Singapore should be Malayan like very do that during their elections. Yeah.

[00:06:19]>> Yeah. Exactly. So this is that same kind of sentiment.

[00:06:23]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But and so it's equally dangerous, right? Singaporeans are like they reject all of this very easily. But the Chinese thing in particular because you don't need a government to do that because >> Chinese nationalism is on the rise >> because the Chinese have every right to be proud, right? Like their country >> whose fault is it who's granting them PRs here?

[00:06:42]>> What do you mean?

[00:06:43]>> Who's granting Chinese nationals PR here?

[00:06:46]>> I mean it's it's our country.

[00:06:48]>> Yeah. So >> no no but I'm talking about like China itself. Like China is is very proud now because >> and they have a right to be well. I mean China has has developed hugely.

[00:06:58]>> I mean cuz the US has turned into a complete circus show. So like the Chinese feel very proud that you know like we have we have we are retaking our rightful place on the world stage >> and sometimes it it creeps over. I don't know if you remember there was like a very viral video a while back where I think they were at Sentosa >> and then one of the Chinese like PRC people were queuing and then they was they started fighting with locals local Chinese >> cuz they were saying things like oh you owe it to us. You owe your existence to us.

[00:07:26]>> Have you been to NTU and you have you seen the student population there?

[00:07:30]>> I've I've heard I've >> a lot of you know is that derative?

[00:07:33]>> I don't think you should say that.

[00:07:34]>> I cannot I cannot say.

[00:07:35]>> I mean it's >> I I saw it on Reddit so I didn't know that we can't use that.

[00:07:40]>> It's a very Okay, first of all it's very oldfashioned.

[00:07:44]>> I think it means Chinese. I think it means like PRC Chinese. But >> anti students were the ones who said this to me.

[00:07:48]>> It's as in it's not even like I mean okay sure maybe it's a bit racist but it's not even about that. It's that it's just damn old. It's like >> very outdated.

[00:07:55]>> Oh, really? Yeah.

[00:07:56]>> It's like saying very orbit, you know.

[00:07:58]It's very orbit.

[00:07:59]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:07:59]>> It's quite cringe because it's such an old saying.

[00:08:01]>> Yeah. It's just that uh during my time we've heard about how certain ministry go to China to recruit scholars to come here and study. So obviously and then some of them become PR over here.

[00:08:13]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:08:14]>> So obviously we are hot target for this sort of narrative.

[00:08:17]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. And sometimes it's organic. So that's why you know like they were saying that it's not necessarily like Chinese government trying to do this but it's just maybe the Chinese themselves like the the citizens themselves feel this way because don't forget >> we are the only country apart from China in the world that is Chinese majority.

[00:08:34]>> Mhm.

[00:08:36]>> Like we are the only other country that's that I mean in a way >> no but those are not separate countries and China definitely doesn't recognize Taiwan as a separate country. So there is to them like we are basically like >> them >> we are the same >> right you are sibling >> not even sibling like you you are a part of us >> you are us >> that >> so that's I mean okay so I have a friend who's from uh who works in the foreign service okay and he was telling that that's why if you notice when our delegates so meaning like Singaporean politicians go and meet Chinese politicians and they have like formal meetings and whatever they always speak in English >> okay >> it's a it's a point that they Because we have to be very careful of the fact that like we are different. We are not the same country. We cannot slip into like >> so if if we are like what you mentioned I mean in their eyes >> why during China's visit to Malaysia the premier actually came down >> but when we sent a delegate to China we met with just the uh second in command or whatever kind of [ __ ] >> I don't know. I mean there's always a thousand one reasons for this kind of thing like logistics calendaring scheduling issues or whatever. I don't know. But basically the idea is that we on our side we always make it very clear like it's a point that we are own country because it's very easy for some of these people to slip in. That's why there was a controversy a while back a few years back some apparently one Chinese newspaper or whatever described Singapore as like the southern province or something like that >> and locals did get quite upset. I remember hearing about it. Yeah. Because >> we are our own people. We are sovereign country. You know, you don't come in and then just take us as if >> back to the videos targeting our Indian community and I see a lot of MP Josephine about how so uh yeah I know was the one who said this is not us. Uh >> what are your thoughts about what your initial thoughts for me when I read comments? I'll be honest. I mean I can be honest on this show right cuz I think there's another layer to this visceral hate that has that has been showing up online and it's targeted towards the >> India Indians >> who are here in Singapore and there's already a growing sentiment >> long time. Yeah, I mean with the viral videos, with the conversations on Reddit, conversations with my neighbors, bro, >> like I live uh I mean my my neighbors are all Chinese. No, sometimes I feel uncomfortable the things that they say old guy plus old guy. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[00:11:08]I'm not racist.

[00:11:12]>> W he will he will share a lot of things.

[00:11:15]the the India doctor that that service him during his visit in hospital diagnosed him wrongly.

[00:11:21]>> So he like [ __ ] this.

[00:11:24]It's really crazy. Then it doesn't help that you know below my blog uh there's this uh India Indian workers living there and I think they might be uh >> renting out to slightly more tenants than usual not. It's just that uh it gets quite rowdy and that has been an issue with my neighbors as well. So >> and not only that, if you have spoken to enough Grab drivers and taxi drivers on the road, they would have shared the same. Some of them have rejected uh trips that involve uh Indian nationals.

[00:11:57]>> So I will say and this is very different. Is there is there any difference to this particular reaction towards India Indians? Because I see uh Singaporean Indians, some of them also >> agree to this.

[00:12:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. I've heard this.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah.

[00:12:12]>> Cuz I mean I I am I'm part of like c some groups, right? Like I mean hash piece for example we I'm part of certain organization harmony circles where we try to talk about this kind of racial issues and recently I'm also noticing a trend like even local Indians are starting to kind of like not say draw lines but they're starting to make a distinction between like yes that you know there there are local Indians who have been here for maybe like four five generations >> and then you also have like newer >> generation uh Indians so in a sense culturally very different even though they might speak the same language >> broadly speaking you know like the same type of food or whatever But >> things like queueing because queuing culture here and queuing culture in India is very like there's basically no queuing culture in India whereas over here we are very particular about this kind of thing right like cuz I actually overheard this there was one day I was at the bus stop I was going home and then the the queue was a bit mixed up >> and I I I got a bit defensive cuz I was tired so I saw somebody I thought they were trying to cut queue so I was like excuse me are you trying to wait here can you go to the back >> and then the person was so offended cuz they were like I'm Singaporean I won't cut Q1. I'll go to the back.

[00:13:16]>> Oh, okay.

[00:13:16]>> So, there's Yeah. Yeah. So, there's this sentiment of like, yeah, like we are Singaporean, >> we know how to queue, you know, like we we respect these kind of things. And you're you're insulting me if you think that I don't know how to queue.

[00:13:27]>> But you also have a lot of I mean like Indians and cuz I've been to like Indian majority places. I've been to like uh Pakistani majority places also. There is no queuing culture.

[00:13:38]>> You just squeeze to the front and you just >> yell for just queuing culture, bro. like the the the culture of speaking, the sense of entitlement, you will see videos, uh conversations between grab drivers being abused.

[00:13:51]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:13:52]>> You know, when you hear certain a certain accent and then you see in the comments, ah this one.

[00:13:58]>> Yeah. I mean, whatever.

[00:13:59]>> That one I'm I'm very familiar with because I mean I learned >> Hindi. I mean I I was very immersed in the culture and I've been I lived in India for about a month and I know that the way that people talk there is like this. It's like that.

[00:14:13]>> Is it a car system or what?

[00:14:15]>> It's not the car system. It's just people are a lot more direct about things. I mean they don't mean to be rude. In fact some of these people like cultural norms over here by our standard.

[00:14:24]>> Not my opinion when I say car system because some of them I've spoken to these drivers and they mention ah because their country got car system they will look down towards people of the lower car. So they think when they come here they bring that that whole you know I'm right and you're wrong. I'm above you.

[00:14:37]>> I mean car system is still a thing there you know.

[00:14:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's on top of that there's also just communication style very different like because >> our style here we're a lot more polite.

[00:14:47]>> We are not very direct. In fact sometimes that irritates me cuz people here like to talk in circles.

[00:14:52]>> But Indians tend to speak very directly and that can come across as very rude.

[00:14:56]>> So how how to solve this? I mean honestly there's no we it's our it's our country like they need to learn right like it's our country it's our culture it's our norms like and people need to learn >> I think your sentiment resonate with a lot of local Singaporeans like you come here you learn how to live here >> yeah and even like you saying even local Indians are starting to to feel that because I've heard these complaints coming from my local Indian friends who say things like you know like yeah like they don't kill they make a ruckus when when they're at the airport or whatever and and then I'm just sitting like, okay, I'm the Chinese guy. I'm not going to say anything. Y say it.

[00:15:30]>> You cannot say anything.

[00:15:31]>> Yeah, I'm not going to say anything. Y say it.

[00:15:33]>> But I I think these sentiments are starting to come out. And >> the problem is it's very easy to sweep it on the carpet and say, "Oh, this just xenophobia. This just racism full stop."

[00:15:43]>> When actually there are many layers to this, >> but like you say, the the Indians themselves need to come out and and talk about this.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. So, so I've seen a growing trend of uh India Indians calling out in a sense their own like uh mis >> but that's the thing they'll say that they're not our own because we are Singaporean Indians. No, >> I mean I'm talking about the reals that are influencers. Uh I think I don't know whether you know at one point of time there was a wave of uh viral reels of how China tourists were behaving around the world. Oh my god.

[00:16:15]>> And that was really horrible. Right. And now we are seeing a rise of how India tourists behave around the world in Thailand whatever. And I've seen India influencers coming out and reacting to these videos and they're bashing back.

[00:16:29]They're they're speaking out. They say this is why we're not respected in this country. This is why we're not respected in this country. You know, you must learn how to blah blah blah. And I see >> it working.

[00:16:38]>> Yeah.

[00:16:38]>> When they start calling out on their own because we you cannot call out because you you're Chinese. I cannot because although I'm a minority but uh you're not automatic cut to actually call them out because I might be seen as racist.

[00:16:50]Uh the fact that me a Malay can have this conversation with a Chinese and then they like I'm not racist. No, but >> yeah, >> it's just we don't dare to speak out.

[00:16:59]>> No. Plus it's also like this problem of for example like your own country's people. So like for example India or China >> their own people going overseas and bringing like not so good habits out, not so good cultural habits out.

[00:17:11]>> Yeah. Actually, if you remember that happened with China as well, but the difference with China and India is the Chinese government is a lot stronger with this kind of thing like cuz for them it's like if you can't behave, I'll just ban you. You just can't leave the country.

[00:17:23]>> India is a democracy. It's that's why it's damn messy.

[00:17:27]>> The government will never be able to exert that kind of control. You know, to them it's like even if you create a mess, I can't stop you. We have a constitution. Go out and do whatever you So arguably will societal pressure uh kind of like bend people into behaving a certain way society will yes so like with India it has to be that way because the Indian government doesn't have that kind of like very strong authoritarian control whereas Chinese government famously is very strong on this kind of thing right it's like if you can't behave strike one strike two I ban you for life you're you're just stuck in China you can't leave anymore >> I see >> I've I've read of these type of reports before so like that's kind of Why? Maybe you see that less with China. But it's not to say they didn't happen. It did happen. If you remember, there was a period where people were [ __ ] at NBS for example. Do you remember >> what is it about?

[00:18:14]>> Chinese tourists coming and then taking a dump >> right like causing a ruckus going to zoo and then picking things out just taking things from the zoo like as if they own the place.

[00:18:24]>> Like all of that happened before. But the you didn't see that level of backlash as the Indians when they do it >> because with the Chinese very quickly the the the country itself the the party actually issued a circular I remember basically.

[00:18:37]>> Oh did they?

[00:18:38]>> Yeah they broadcasted and they advised their citizens please behave overseas.

[00:18:43]>> Wa >> that's why I say like the Chinese government is very different cuz for them they have that level of control.

[00:18:48]They can tell you if you don't behave I will strip you of your privileges. India is a democracy. They have no such control. like it's just all over the place.

[00:18:55]>> How do you see uh this situation unfolding? Uh more >> friction in the future like you you see more more uh racist comments online.

[00:19:06]>> Oh my god. Yeah. The the trend is very clear. Like I mean cuz none of this is new.

[00:19:10]>> These sentiments like anti-Indian sentiments have been in Singapore for like at least 10 years.

[00:19:14]>> Yeah. Actually. Yeah.

[00:19:16]>> Yeah. But it but it's growing. It's growing very strongly. And like with the Chinese, right? Because there was a period if you remember where local Chinese also really didn't like PRC.

[00:19:25]>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember.

[00:19:26]>> Yeah. People like Singapore, Chinese Singaporeans will be very quick to say we are different.

[00:19:30]>> But it's not just we are different. We are better. We are more cultured. We're more civilized. We behave better. Cuz there was a perception back then that Chinese Chinese mainland Chinese talk very loud, always shouting, tend to be a bit rough, you know, like and all of these stereotypes were there. But because China has developed so much recently, if you notice, there are a lot of mainland Chinese now actually in Singapore. They might be PRs, they might be working here, >> but that that friction has started like mellowing down. Partly also because you don't hear as much of these type of like super ridiculous behavior anymore.

[00:20:02]>> Mhm.

[00:20:03]>> With the Indians, it's >> like it's it's a conversation that's just starting.

[00:20:08]>> I understand.

[00:20:09]>> So it will get worse before it hopefully gets better. Like when you talk about composition, I remember there was a holy event done by I think GRC or it was done >> but the comments were oh my god was bad very nasty you know very nasty >> and I I saw uh an Indian deto Indian detoer spoke up about it he's half south Indian half north Indian so I think uh his mother's side or north I don't know what so he he he had the privilege of experiencing >> both the tamilan side of festivities and also the of Indian side of festivities and he was there and he spoke up uh actually quite brilliantly and quite well uh against the racism that was directed uh to >> uh his community in particular uh in that holy event. I I I think more of such conversations to be done online, more people speaking up about this will help to educate both sides >> because it really pains me you know like and I mean cuz Raman's not here but he always likes to call me Sudo Indian >> but I mean I do feel very much cuz I mean I studied Hindi for like 3 years of my life. I've spent time in India. I have I have a lot of Indian friends.

[00:21:14]Yeah, I have a lot of Indian friends.

[00:21:16]>> Like I I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with the culture. In fact, the culture is a very rich culture. M like the civilization is a very rich civilization >> but it's unfortunate when these kind of things come in and then like the whole community's reputation gets gets trashed for what >> right >> over the and then it doesn't help when you know you got all these like uncles who also like >> yeah it's hard to educate them >> yeah they don't care about the new ones they just see like oh Indian behave like this I don't like all Indians full stop >> like for them it's just that straightforward >> I yeah I'll be honest sometimes I I I want to it gets very uncomfortable talking to my neighbor about that. Uh, so I'll just lend a listening gear. I'm thinking, okay, he's going to die soon, so I just got to tolerate this a bit more.

[00:21:58]>> In that situation, what will you do?

[00:22:01]>> I would even talk to the guy, >> bro. I live next to the guy, bro.

[00:22:05]>> I don't talk to my neighbors. I fought with my neighbors. I don't care. I mean, if you're a dick, you're a dick.

[00:22:10]>> You're not even promoting social cohesion. You're like, >> Yeah. I mean, like, if you're a dick, I'm not going to like >> There we are going to be dicks, you know, in the community. I >> and I got better things to do with my with my time. Like I'm sorry. Like I'm not here to >> I'm watering the plants, bro. He walks past and he wants the composition. What I'm going to do? Just ignore him.

[00:22:28]>> Can't do that, man.

[00:22:29]>> I will excuse myself very quickly.

[00:22:31]>> Yeah, >> dude. It's really difficult. He's really good.

[00:22:34]>> I mean, I I am I'm a direct person myself. I don't think I have any saying like, "Yeah, sorry. I need to go. Bye."

[00:22:40]>> I'm not >> I'll be like very polite, you know? It's very old female. I can't just say, "Dude, I got something on, man. I got to [ __ ] off." No, I can't say that.

[00:22:50]>> I wouldn't say [ __ ] off, but I would say like, you know, like, okay, is it is it really very interesting, but I got something to do. Sorry. Bye.

[00:22:56]>> I cannot I cannot you talk [ __ ] >> I mean, he's old. He'll forget about it the next day. Whatever. I don't know.

[00:23:02]Maybe if he has a heart attack, I'll be the first responder. You know, I need to maintain good relation with him. Yeah.

[00:23:08]>> Okay. Thank you for tuning in to plan B.sg. Uh what are your thoughts about uh the recent spate of racism directed towards the Indian community? Um, give us your thoughts in the comments down below. We'll see you on the next podcast only on PlsG. Bye-bye.