In conversation with Lina Rozbih - Afghan Journalist, Activist and Writer

[00:00:00]2 1 Perfect.

[00:00:04]There are moments in history that unfold over decades.

[00:00:08]And then, there are moments that seem to happen overnight.

[00:00:12]In the summer of 2021, the world woke up to headlines that felt almost impossible to comprehend.

[00:00:20]A government collapsed, an army dissolved, a capital city changed hands, and millions of people found themselves standing on the edge of an entirely new reality.

[00:00:33]One night, it seemed, an entire country fell.

[00:00:37]If Kerala is often called God's own country, then Afghanistan has been called the heart of Asia.

[00:00:44]A place where culture, languages, and histories have met for centuries. Long before it became a symbol of war, Afghanistan was a crossroad of civilizations, poets, scholars, traders, and empires. A land that gave the world legends, literature, and some of history's most enduring cultural treasures. Yet today, much of the world's understanding of Afghanistan is filtered through conflict, displacement, and headlines. So, what does Afghanistan look like through the eyes of someone who's lived its story, carried its memories, and dedicated her life to telling the truth?

[00:01:23]To explore that question, I'm honored to be joined by one of the most powerful Afghan voices of our time, Lena Rosbeh.

[00:01:32]Lena is an acclaimed journalist, novelist, poet, and advocate whose work has illuminated the realities of war, exile, human suffering, and above all, resilience.

[00:01:46]Her writing gives voice to the experiences of the Afghan people, particularly women and girls, whose stories are too often unheard. She's the author of several celebrated books, a respected commentator on human rights and refugee issues, and a recipient of the 2025 Peace Award awarded by the Peace and Sport Council of Afghanistan for her contribution to women's empowerment, human rights advocacy, and literature. Most recently, she was invited to speak at the United States Library of Congress. There she shared reflections on displacement, identity, recovery, and the enduring spirit of the Afghan people.

[00:02:28]Leena, thank you so much for joining us today. It's truly a privilege to have you here.

[00:02:34]>> Well, thank you so much for inviting me, and thank you for such a kind introduction. It's great to be here.

[00:02:40]>> I'm grateful that she's agreed to join us on what will be, really, a tell-all podcast. Thank you, Leena, and my best wishes first to you on the 107 years of independence of the great nation of Afghanistan.

[00:02:54]>> Uh thank you so much. Likewise. Thank you.

[00:02:58]>> Leena, your work has taken many forms.

[00:03:00]You've been a journalist, an activist, a novelist, and a poet. But at the heart of all of them is storytelling.

[00:03:08]Feminist literature, in particular, has powerfully explored themes of identity, freedom, injustice, and selfhood.

[00:03:15]Yet I wonder where there are certain emotions that remain comparatively underexplored because they sit uncomfortably within the movement's broader aspirations. Emotions such as envy, vanity, resentment, regret, obsession, or even the desire for power are deeply human, but often are morally ambiguous. So, do you think feminist literature sometimes hesitates to engage with these darker or more complicated dimensions of female experience? And if so, what do we lose when these aspects of the soul are left untranslated?

[00:03:51]>> Well, when we speak about feminism, first of all, I think feminism is a word that is given to a woman who who fight for the rights for their own basic rights and the injustice that they're experiencing in a society.

[00:04:06]Uh so, I don't personally consider myself feminist. I think I'm fighting for my rights as a human and I'm fighting for the rights of other humans that happen to be female.

[00:04:17]And I think I would do the same for the men if they're in the same situation that we are as a woman in in today's world. So, I think feminism is just trying to categorize and again give this gender stamp into a movement that's basically has no differences in any other uh fight or ongoing combat to achieve human rights for any human being, male or female.

[00:04:41]Uh but, well, let's call it feminism for the moment. So, when we speak about feminism, the first thing that it stands out in your mind as a woman fighting for her for her rights.

[00:04:54]And when you are so busy fighting for your rights, you really get any chances to uh turn around and think internally about your emotions as a human because you're too busy fighting in an environment that is has taken away every imaginable right from you to have that leisure time to think about your emotions as a woman.

[00:05:23]I hope you understand my my point of view.

[00:05:26]Uh you know, I always when I speak about woman, I go to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you take a look at he he he builds this harem and says the very first thing that the woman that the people or humans do is fight for their existence, fight for their basic rights. And then the next step is when you're living in an environment that it provides you with those rights, then you have time to think about your leisure feelings. How a woman feels, envy, love, and all that human emotions that comes with you as a woman. So, I think as a feminist, you don't really get a chance to think about that aspect of your being.

[00:06:07]Because I'm too busy fighting for my right to go to school.

[00:06:11]I'm busy fighting for my rights to be able to work outside my home. I'm busy fighting uh this battle of breaking the glass ceiling and having an equal salary as my male counterpart to have that leisure time to sit and think about how I feel as a woman.

[00:06:30]Right? So, I think even the critic those who critique the work of feminism say that we forgot that aspect of being a feminine, it's not deliberate.

[00:06:41]It's environmental. If you have these battles, these ongoing battles, we really have time to sit back and think about what being a female means.

[00:06:52]And then you explores those emotions.

[00:06:55]So, I think it's not deliberate, and if they think that way, maybe it's true.

[00:06:59]But then again, because we're too busy fighting for other things that are of more priority and important to us than our feelings.

[00:07:08]And once we achieve that, uh then we would probably have that time to start exploring our emotions as a female, and that, you know, write about love, write write about envy, write about any positive and negative and, you know, emotions that we have as females.

[00:07:26]>> I mean, there goes the saying that women are not born strong. Strength is what finds a woman.

[00:07:33]And therefore, uh if we look at the political reality of Afghanistan, there goes the saying that a female cat in Afghanistan has more liberty than a woman.

[00:07:45]The Talibans have been referred to as barbarians, but Lena, I'm going to use even stronger adjectives.

[00:07:52]These Talibani's are perverts. And for all the viewers watching this, let me tell you who these perverts are.

[00:07:59]So, when they took control of two provinces just sometime back named Badakhshan and Takhar, uh correct me if I'm wrong on the pronoun >> Badakhshan >> Yes.

[00:08:09]>> Badakhshan and Takhar, yes.

[00:08:11]>> Yes. The moment they took control of these provinces, they sent an order to the local religious leaders. And in that order they mentioned that we want a list of all young girls, all young girls below the age of 15. And all the girls below the age of 15 must be handed over to be used as sexual objects for the Taliban fighters. And not just that, they also they also issued a decree that all religious leaders, all local religious leaders must hand over all widows below the age of 45 to be used as sexual objects by the Taliban fighters.

[00:08:49]And these people then started quoting religious verses. So, you've spent years advocating for women. And this brings me to ask you this question, Lena. If you could redefine one thing within feminist discourse today, particularly regarding women in conflict zones and the global south, what would it be?

[00:09:09]I mean >> Thank you as someone a woman from India that you took this upon yourself to go and research about the situation of Afghan woman in Afghanistan under the rules of the Taliban.

[00:09:21]And when we speak about feminism, this is exactly I think what's missing in today's world. And that's solidarity of woman with woman, right?

[00:09:30]So, we are living in 21st century where we believe as humans that having the right to education, having the right to choose, or having the right to go to work, etc., should be a God-given right to women. It shouldn't be something that the woman need to struggle to achieve in any environment, any country.

[00:09:50]But yet again, we have a country on Earth called Afghanistan where the girls beyond the sixth grade are not allowed to go to school, women are not allowed to work, women are not even allowed to leave their home and go sit in a park, you know, or walk in a park, or practice a sports, or do anything.

[00:10:08]And yet, that solidarity, you know, I was thinking that as soon as the Taliban issued the very first decree to ban the schools in Afghanistan for girls, I was expecting a very universal uh vast condemnation from the women's everywhere in reaction to this decision of the Taliban. That's solidarity that you that you uh think you will receive from your sisters across the globe, right? But that was pretty much missing.

[00:10:40]Uh we have women in power in European countries especially. We have women ministers, we have women who are in parliament, we have women in European Union, we have women in NATO, we have women in United Nations. And unfortunately, that reaction to what the Taliban are doing in violating women's rights in Afghanistan has not has not gone beyond issuing a statement in condemning the Taliban.

[00:11:09]Nobody has stepped forward to hold the Taliban responsible. Nobody cared to lead a more feminist, or only women consisted protest across the globe against what the Taliban are doing to the women in Afghanistan. So, I would say solidarity.

[00:11:26]Because as a woman, you know, uh frankly, in any country, it's not only Afghanistan, in India, and in the US, the men will prioritize their own issues over what's happening to women, right? In any country, it's not just Afghanistan. So, it falls upon women, you know, to take that that that that a stance and bring the women related issues and make it a priority for their country.

[00:11:52]So, I was expecting at least these women ministers, these women who are working in high-rank positions in NATO, and European Union, and the UN to make this a priority.

[00:12:05]And it's been 5 years now, and August 15th will be 5 years, at least a month from now, that the Taliban are in power, and the reaction of the world and the women in the world has not gone beyond issuing a statement after a statement in condemning the Taliban actions without taking any firm stance towards this government to hold this government responsible for what they're doing to women there.

[00:12:30]And I think that's one of the reason that the Taliban are emboldened, and they feel like, "Okay, we can do anything to these women, and nobody can do anything to us." They're testing the water. They issued over 200 decrees, and they saw that the world is not doing anything to them. So, why not continue, you know? So, that solidarity is very much missing among us women in the world in terms of supporting each other's cause, and in terms of promoting the women's right, or holding the violators of human rights, or women's rights responsible.

[00:13:03]>> And it's unfortunate how solidarity Solidarity should be the first It's the most fundamental principle of humanity.

[00:13:10]But, however, it's unfortunate how civilization is more influenced by self-interest and not solidarity. And if you look at Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a mockery of humanity. Okay. So, the world often speaks about Afghanistan as a political reality, But for the people of Afghanistan, it's a memory, a language, a childhood, and a loss of dignity and integrity. So, this brings me to ask you another question, Lena. On a very personal note, what part of Afghanistan do you carry most closely within yourself?

[00:13:48]>> Uh when you speak about good memories of Afghanistan, uh you know, my father's my mom and my dad's generation and our generation, we have a bit of uh so-called memories of Afghanistan from the days that Afghanistan was normal, or if you could call normal.

[00:14:10]I left Afghanistan when I was 8 or 9 years old. So, my memory of Afghanistan is our house, the street we lived in, my school, my my friends, our relatives.

[00:14:21]But unfortunately, since 1979, the start of the Cold War and the start of all sorts of political crisis and tension in Afghanistan, that image of normal Afghanistan is sort of fading in our memories completely. Like, I try to go back to those days and there's not much I remember.

[00:14:45]And because of this image of Afghanistan and war being so powerful, it's like tragic crisis happening one after another since 197 and 79. It's so powerful and impactful that it overrides, overtakes that good little bit of memory that we have of Afghanistan from its normal days.

[00:15:07]So, when I think of Afghanistan, I what what exists in my memory is nothing of but these bad news that I read about Afghanistan. This imagery of woman, you know, being in pain. This imagery of crisis after crisis that has happened to the people of uh >> [clears throat] >> Afghanistan. The war, the poverty, the every imaginable human misery that you can think of is right now exists in Afghanistan.

[00:15:37]So, uh then we have four generations. It's my parents' generation, my generation, and then two more generations that are born and raised in war.

[00:15:47]So, the generation after me and the generation after them, who are now 7 or 8 years old, they know nothing but war.

[00:15:55]So, I think that's another aspect of this tragic reality of Afghanistan that at least the three last generation of Afghans know nothing but war, and they have no memory of what a normal life cycle looks like.

[00:16:15]They are on constant uh struggles, they constantly dealing with crisis, and they pretty much are used to this, which is a scary. So, the all they know about life is what's happening to Afghanistan right now.

[00:16:29]So, that that nostalgia of, you know, some people say, "Oh, I think of my country, you know, peaceful days, good days." That nostalgic feeling, memories, etc., doesn't exist for the majority of the population because it's been 46 years of ongoing war and crisis in Afghanistan.

[00:16:49]That prevented people from from even having a good memory of peaceful era of their country.

[00:16:56]Which is sad.

[00:16:59]>> So, the more deeply we understand injustice, the harder it becomes to look away.

[00:17:06]Has your activism ever changed the way you experience joy, hope, or even ordinary life?

[00:17:13]>> Absolutely.

[00:17:14]>> [laughter] >> I think if you read about Afghanistan, there was a uh uh uh uh credible uh report, I don't remember the source right now, a few years ago that this that it mentioned that over 90% of the Afghan population have PTSD and they deal with different sorts of mental illnesses as a result of war.

[00:17:38]Uh I mean, imagine and we are considered the lucky ones because we left Afghanistan. I was 8 years old and we moved to Iran and then from Iran to Pakistan to Canada. So, imagine living in four, five different countries as a child where you're forced to learn different languages, you're forced to learn different cultures.

[00:17:58]Uh you're forced to learn to see your parents build a home and leave a home and uh start from zero again.

[00:18:06]So, whether you like it or not, that has, you know, a a severe and a grave impact on your psychology.

[00:18:13]I think about my past and there is really I cannot find a day where I can say that I was fully happy.

[00:18:21]Because there's always something that you think about, there's always a challenge that you need to overcome, there's always an obstacle that you need to, you know, deal with.

[00:18:31]Uh and then there is news from Afghanistan that impacts you. So, I think none of us from that country can say with confident that we are not impacted by this war and that we are psychologically uh didn't pay the price of of experiencing life as an Afghan, and be that as a refugee or as someone who lived inside Afghanistan. So, yeah, there are days that I'm uh driving, coming from home work or coming from outside back home or doing things and all of a sudden I feel this heaviness, this pain, this discomfort and I just think like nothing is wrong, Why am I feeling this way?

[00:19:14]And then I especially when you get older. And then I I know that it's as a result of those years and years and years of hardship that I experienced as a refugees. A refugee living in four different countries and then the life as it's as as it is. I mean, think about it. I have cousins who are scattered around the world. I haven't seen them for years. I have aunts and uncles who passed away and we, you know, never see them for the past 20 years. So, these are all the emotional impact of war on a population and I think Afghans are no exception.

[00:19:52]So, the sad reality is that humans and on a very biased note, women are slowly sculpted by disappointments. So, life is basically stuck in a loop of a metamorphosis from disappointments, losses, acts of courage, and moments of self-discovery. So, what experiences most profoundly transformed you into the woman, the human, the woman you are today?

[00:20:21]I think all of that. I mean, my identity as being a Muslim woman from Afghanistan. Let's also remember that even before the Taliban, uh we had a very male-dominated society in Afghanistan under the influence of misinterpretation of religion.

[00:20:37]Uh life was never easy for a woman in Afghanistan even before the Taliban. The double standard was there, uh the religious beliefs that people misinterpretation of religion that they had. Uh Afghanistan from beginning was a very illiterate society, very much religious but illiterate. So, life was never easy for a woman even before the Taliban and now it's just, you know, gotten worse.

[00:21:03]And I think all these experiences shaped my personality as a woman. I always believe that we as human, regardless of of of the gender, male or female, we are shaped and formed and and we are pretty much the product of our environment. What you see as as a result of years of living and and, you know, in a particular environment, well, it gives you a sense of challenges and and and obstacles to overcome.

[00:21:35]So, I think my personality, whoever I am, is definitely shaped by war, shaped by the fact that I'm a woman from a third world country that was severely illiterate and overwhelmingly overwhelmingly religious.

[00:21:50]And that I lived my life as an Afghan refugee in different countries. I had to overcome so many challenges and obstacles.

[00:22:00]And that I experienced life in an environment, as I said, that is male-dominated. It doesn't mean that I left Afghanistan and I'm not dealing with those perceptions anymore. I'm still with it living within that community, that society that although they live in the US, there are still very much double the double standard toward women that still exists within them, whether it's your family, your community, or whatever. So, that character, obviously, it's is absolutely my personality shaped by all these experiences, uh but notoriously but by the war and what the war has caused us, uh the byproduct of war, which was I I believe the refugee life.

[00:22:49]>> So, if activism if activism is at the core of it a refusal to accept the world the way it is, what was the first thing about the world that you refused to accept.

[00:23:04]About the world, uh I would bluntly say that Well, this is a process of learning, I would say.

[00:23:16]I always thought the world is ideal.

[00:23:19]You know, there bad thing, there good thing. You do good things, you rewarded for it. You do bad things, you punished for it. And the world would always stand with the right side, with the righteous, with good people.

[00:23:33]But now I came to seeing Afghanistan, as I told you, you know, I was expecting at least from the feminist movement to show solidarity with the woman of Afghanistan. Unfortunately, I came to understanding that it's all about self-interest.

[00:23:49]All the values we have, all the belief system that we have, when it comes down and boils down to self-interest, then the world may do the opposite. The world may >> [clears throat] >> The world may engage with the Taliban if it's to their self-interest as opposed to defending uh the Afghan woman who are the victims of of the Taliban's brutality.

[00:24:10]So, my perception of world change in a way that I no longer see the world as a as some place that is ideal.

[00:24:20]And I no longer believe people who preach about, you know, human rights, who preach about uh believing in certain standards because when I I think when when the issue of self-interest arise, then everybody is willing to negotiate on those values, unfortunately.

[00:24:40]>> So, moving on to the last question.

[00:24:44]Has activism become a part of your identity, or do you actively resist being defined by it?

[00:24:53]>> I think uh this is a It's a question. A lot of people accuse women of being feminists, right? Activists. Women are automatically if you're activist you're considered a feminist and they think being a feminist is something bad.

[00:25:07]Because they tend to always think about that radical feminism that's after destroying, you know, they think of it a radical feminism is destroying families because it's teaching women not to get married, not to have child children, etc. But I believe that activism exists in all humans as a form of protection. If you put a male in an environment where you take all his rights away like they done to women in Afghanistan and you uh limit him within the four walls of his home and tell him to seek permission for they will naturally naturally uh rebel. That's in us humans because we are born free.

[00:25:50]Freedom is something that it's it's it's uh within us. It's not deliberate.

[00:25:57]So, if women rebel right now, if you have a movement of feminism, it's not because we are activists or we try to, you know, nurture this activism in us and we are doing voluntarily. It's a involuntary reaction to your environment and it's in women and men, in female and male.

[00:26:19]Uh so, I think as a woman if you are in day this day uh in age accept what is happening to you without rebelling.

[00:26:30]Accept that yes, I'm inferior to men.

[00:26:32]Yes, I'm not supposed to go to school. I think that's when you should think that there is something wrong with these women.

[00:26:39]Not with the women who are rebelling.

[00:26:42]Because it's a natural God-giving instinct in us that when you think even an animal you put it in cage it would fight with you, right?

[00:26:52]It's a natural instinct in humans to rebel and if a woman are rebelling they have a very very valid and legitimate reasons to do so.

[00:27:02]You know, if you take away my human rights, my basic human rights, I will definitely rebel. So, if you look at that and you try to uh interpret that in a wrong way, call it activism or radical feminism, etc. I don't mind. Call me a radical feminist.

[00:27:21]Uh but yeah, the activism is in me. If you take away my right, I will fight for it to death as opposed to just sitting quietly and accept the misogyny and the patriarchy as a system that I I live within and, you know, uh obey and abide by it by its law.

[00:27:43]>> Perhaps the greatest act of resistance is not merely to survive, but to continue telling your story.

[00:27:52]Thank you so much, Nina, for sharing your story with us today. And to everyone listening, when this episode ends, remember that somewhere tonight an Afghan girl is still dreaming of an education.

[00:28:06]An Afghan woman, an Afghan mother is still hoping for safety.

[00:28:13]An Afghan writer is still trying to find words for a pain the world has grown accustomed to ignoring.

[00:28:20]The question is not whether Afghanistan will be remembered. The question is whether we will remember it for its wounds alone or for the extraordinary humanity that has endured them.

[00:28:33]With that, we proceed to our rapid-fire round. So, I would be throwing you these uh phrases of words and you just uh answer them with just one single word.

[00:28:43]That's the entire point of a rapid-fire round, Nina.

[00:28:46]>> I'm so bad in that.

[00:28:48]Oh, come on. So, all right, so um one word that defines womanhood.

[00:28:57]>> Resilience.

[00:28:58]>> Character.

[00:29:00]>> A quality in women that the world underestimates.

[00:29:06]>> Character.

[00:29:08]>> A feminist book every young woman should read.

[00:29:13]>> Oh, there's so many. There's so many. I think the founding mother of feminism is Mary Wollstonecraft, the book Wrong Woman. And then for me as a Muslim woman, Dr. Nawal El Saadawi, all her books. She was amazing.

[00:29:29]>> Strength or softness?

[00:29:33]>> I think a combination of both. Having either one will not help you. A combination of both.

[00:29:40]>> Anger or hope?

[00:29:43]>> Again, a combination and of both. Anger without hope, hope without anger will not get you anywhere.

[00:29:50]>> What is one thing women should stop apologizing for?

[00:29:55]>> Being yourself and voicing your choices.

[00:29:58]The society have always uh tagged uh outspoken woman as bad woman.

[00:30:05]Never fear to stand for your right and ask for what you want or reject what you don't want.

[00:30:10]>> What is one myth about feminism that you'd like to erase?

[00:30:16]>> I think what I just said, that a feminism is there to destroy families and to change that traditional role of woman. While feminism is there to just fight for woman's right, not to do the opposite. So, it's just wants the woman to have equal right to a man and live as a human uh in our society that's respected as equally to man. So, that's the myth.

[00:30:39]>> A woman in history you'd like to have dinner with.

[00:30:44]>> There again, so many I wish I could have a gala.

[00:30:48]But since I'm speaking to you, Razia Sultan from India. She was the first queen of Delhi.

[00:30:55]Uh she coined her name on the on the money. She called herself Sultan. Sultan is a terminology that is used for man, but she used it for herself. She ruled over Delhi. She was dressing as a man when she was going to fight her enemies.

[00:31:10]So I think Razia Sultan and definitely in some good Delhi restaurant. Why not?

[00:31:16]>> Definitely. Thank you so much for joining Lena today. Thank you so much for joining us. I had a really nice time speaking to you.

[00:31:24]And with that, I'll put an end to the recording.