The existence of pain and suffering in the world does not necessarily disprove God's existence, as many theologians argue that suffering can be explained through the concept of free will and a redemptive plan. According to this perspective, God created humans with free will, which allowed for the possibility of sin and suffering, but also provided a path to redemption through Jesus Christ. The argument holds that a loving God would not create a world without free will, as that would eliminate human agency and moral choice. The suffering experienced in this world is part of a larger narrative of redemption and restoration, with the promise of a future where suffering will be eliminated.
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The historical evidence for Jesus Christ, including his life, crucifixion, and resurrection, is evidence that God exists.
>> People have always historically created evidence. There's never been any evidence of a resurrection. I really believe that he was a good that there was a Jesus.
>> This religion uh and Jesus died 2,000 years ago. If there is no God, right and wrong are just opinions and not truth.
>> Are you saying then in a world without God, abortion is not bad? Then >> Christians disagree on what is right and wrong.
>> In the Bible, there are so many things that in my atheist opinion are inherently wrong.
>> How does sexual sin lead to an abortion?
>> Pain and suffering are not proof that God does not exist.
It's unlikely to believe that a good God who could do anything would create the world as it is.
>> Knowledge of the Bible well enough to quote it does not make you right.
>> Will we not have free will in heaven?
Human beings are the ones that assign what is good and what is bad.
>> The complexity and precision of the human body cannot be explained by random processes. Instead, they point to an intelligent creator.
>> There's no evidence that had anything to do with God. It's called uh evolution.
>> How can you not think that we are so similar that we have just evolved from them? We created other people to believe in other religions.
>> Religious trauma and hypocrisy in the church does not prove that God does not exist.
>> Religion has had is rife with hypocrisy.
Why is it that you need God to exist so bad?
>> Church behaves just as bad as the secular world.
>> If he's this amazing person, why doesn't he choose equally amazing people to represent him?
Hi, welcome to the Dr. Daff Show. Today I'm here with one Christian, Johanna, and 13 atheists. Unfortunately, we did have eight people who cannot make it today, but Johanna is going to have a great conversation with these ladies.
She came up with her own prompts and we're excited to hear them. So, Johanna, take the floor.
Hi everyone. My first prompt is the historical evidence for Jesus Christ, including his life, crucifixion, and resurrection is evidence that God exists.
Hi, my name is Lionessia. Lovely to meet you.
>> I'm Carol from Santa Clarita.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Andrea, originally from New Jersey and I live here now.
>> Uh, Constansa Alana and I live in LA.
So, nice to meet you ladies. So my first prompt is the historical evidence for Jesus Christ including his life, crucifixion and resurrection is evidence that God exists. Um ultimately the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is a well-known historical attested event not only from biblical sources but also extra biblical sources. And I know often a lot of atheists are like, "Oh, if God's real, why doesn't he prove it? How come he just doesn't come down and show us?" But the thing is, he already did.
He came through Jesus Christ. Um, and this is actually confirmed by historical evidence outside the Bible. So, just wanted to know your thoughts about that.
I don't believe that's true.
I don't believe that's true because people have always historically created evidence for what they want to be true so they can control others. H Mhm.
>> If someone such as Jesus existed, I personally believe he was a revolutionary and perhaps destroyed for his beliefs and then his words used to create more propaganda. same as how Martin Luther King is used now to preach peaceful protest when >> really he was asking us to be more >> okay >> demanding of our rights but yeah I don't want to go into monologue obviously you said you don't believe that happened um have you actually done the research or is it just like a blind faith type of thing >> I have I have studied it >> so what have you found based on the historical evidence >> there's Not really a lot of historical scientific evidence.
>> There's a lot to >> There's Roman historians, there's Jewish historians, there are several historians outside the Bible, those who didn't even like Jesus. They had no skin in the game regarding Jesus. We have Josephus, we have Tacitus, we have Ply the Younger.
These are all people who despised Christians but still recorded the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. So, you know, the Bible says, "Seek me and you'll find me if you search for me with all your heart." And ultimately, I feel like the reason why you don't want to see is because you haven't really looked. You said you found the evidence, but you can't really show it. So, I'm not just making up a story. Jesus actually died. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, the Roman Empire, and this is historical evidence.
>> I don't disbelieve that Jesus lived or died.
>> Absolutely. And and I think that that's probably true.
>> Um, but the resurrection is another thing. There's never been any evidence of a resurrection. And you say that there's evidence that he was he, you know, I think he was a prophet like like the Buddha or or Muhammad, but I don't believe that he came back. And you've got to you've got to figure that at the time when Jesus did live, most of the people were illiterate. They couldn't read. They couldn't write. And if you've ever played telephone when you were a kid, you know, one person starts a story, then it goes to the next, then it goes to the next.
>> And by the end, it changes. And the Bible was not written until 300 some odd years after Jesus died.
>> So, who knows what happened to the story?
>> That's not true. So, you said, >> you know, as as Leonessa, I've I've researched it and it is fact. Let me Well, I'll just start. Let me just respond. She said the Bible was written 300 years after Jesus died. That's not true. There the Bible has been written 2,000 years like 2,000 years across 40 different authors. You may have meant the gospels may have been written after Jesus died, but they weren't written 300 years later. They were written about maybe 40 to 60 years after he died. But we also have Old Testament prophecies that came 400 years before Jesus prophesying his crucifixion, prophesying his resurrection. So just to fact check check you on that even with the game of telephone that you say um we have the gospels the four eyewitness accounts they all have the same systematic message. So even amongst the gospels of these four eyewitness accounts they are the same and we have manuscripts thousands of them that actually show that they're all consistent.
Yes, >> I do believe there is some documentation that this p person called Jesus existed.
I do believe there's documentation, not extensive but some that does document the crucifixion.
My hypothesis is that he was the Martin Luther King, the the uh Mahatma Gandhi, the Bernie Sanders of his day. M >> he was the person who was rebelling against the theocracy that existed with the Sadducees and Pharisees in line with the banksters, >> the bankers and the Roman Empire, the corporate and and and the merger of state and government. and he preached a gospel of social justice and doing unto others an equality. I do not um do not deny any of that >> because that is true. I really believe that he was a good that there was a Jesus >> and he served a very important person a purpose. But on the other hand, he got taken over by Paul who I had the idea.
>> Let me respond back to your one claim.
Go ahead. So um you said that he was like the Martin Luther King of the time.
Um Jesus came as a suffering servant. Um the Jewish people, they thought that he would come to rise as king so that he can overthrow the riot Roman Empire. But even when it comes to his crucifixion, low-key, the gospel is one of the most embarrassing stories. If they're going to think of the gospel, they're not going to say that their king was crucified on the cross. Crucifixion was so embarrassing. It was for the lowest of the low. Even Roman citizens were not even allowed to be crucified because it was so desecrating. Not only that, when they preached the gospel, they had a woman that of all people, a woman go to preach the gospel message because all the disciples, the men disciples. How embarrassing is that? Not only that, I mean, you just Are you saying it's embarrassing because a woman is preaching?
>> I'm not saying that. I'm saying in that time, okay, I'm pro-woman, okay? I'm a woman myself, but I'm saying during that time like the go and then not not only that, after the the disciples uh preached the gospel, they're getting crucified and they're getting murdered and martyed for this story. So, I don't understand how that's like this manifesto Martin Luther King Jr. or by Bernie Sanders because it was a horrific message that ultimately ended in death for everybody, but it preached one central message that Christ is king and he died, rose, and is going to come back so that we can ultimately be saved.
>> I would even like to Okay, that's your belief.
>> It's the truth, babes. It's all historical.
>> That's your belief.
>> It's historical.
>> Cuz if we're talking about truth, there's lots of truth out there.
>> I didn't make it You know, we don't even this is like a minute belief.
>> It's not >> in the in the vast existence of the universe.
>> It's minute, but we have AD and BC that documents our entire date system.
>> And yes, you mentioned a lot of people that have documented this work. And I would like to say a lot of the people that you did mention were once of the perpetrator of the implementation of this religion. They were the ones that were actually putting this religion into faith into consensus across the world.
What do you mean if you say the Roman Empire?
>> Yeah.
>> The Roman Empire was one who had the largest army was one of the first to implement Christianity as a national rule in Rome. Yes. And then obviously with colonization and with the with the creation of the Vatican which is the church and the Vatican bless kings and queens of different cultures to then go colonize other nations and implement religion. Right.
>> Yeah. It's not religion for us though.
It's relationship. It's spreading the message in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So yes, there have been like people who have set up rules in religion to dominate people. We've had the colonizers come to Africa and like enslave uh Africans in the name of religion and that's demonic and I completely denounce that. That's horrific. So yeah, >> that was that's that was just a segue for right now. We could come back to that. But the point I was really trying to make is even like yeah that you believe >> but let's not forget as well that even the story of the birth of Jesus >> is a story that has appeared across lots of different cultures. It's not unique to the Christian birth is not unique.
>> It's not. It was >> Can you tell me where else?
>> A lot of the Bible stories are taken from different cultures.
>> Do you have any evidence to show any other types of virgin births that happened?
>> I mean, I I think I would like to answer your prompt first. I don't believe that just because Jesus existed that it automatically means that your version of God exists, humanity is 300,000 years old. this religion uh and Jesus died 2,000 years ago. So, it's hard for me to believe that somebody who died or existed 2,000 years ago in the 300,000year history of humanity.
>> That that is the only evidence that we have that a god exists. M okay.
>> My ancestors in the Caribbean and in Africa believed in lots of things, but mostly they believed in what they could see. They believed in taking care of the earth. They believed in taking care of animals, being stewards of their environment. That was God to them. And I would never deny them that because that's where I come from, right? But my personal stance on a god existing is also rooted in my reality. I've never had a god speak to me personally. I was raised Christian because of colonization.
I my ancestors were forced to convert to Christianity. They were forced to learn how to read and write because they were considered illiterate. And I have a huge problem with um Christians trying to espouse that that the fact that Jesus's life was recorded when so many of our ancestors didn't have the ability to read or write in the same way that Abrahamic religions did.
that that means that their experiences were invalid and that the things that they believed in are invalid.
>> Okay. So for me, when you say, "Well, this is recorded history." For me, that sounds really disrespectful because so much of my ancestry were considered illiterate and were considered animals because they didn't have the same ability to read and write in the same way that the people who wrote the Bible did.
>> Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. So, you mentioned about the time aspect, like the world has been here for 300,000 years. Well, we can we can speculate.
I'm not even sure. But whether or not that happened or not, there is evidence that humanity has existed for 300,000.
>> 300,000 years for the >> I mean, you're talking about recorded history. So, I'm just putting the recorded history back. Let me answer.
Let's say 300,000 years. Okay. Jesus is eternal. So, whether it's 300 years ago or not, he existed before the world cre before the world existed. And is historical evidence the only way to prove that Jesus is God? No. But that's just for the sake of the prompt. Not only that, you can't say that people who are illiterate can't preserve a message.
We have Muhammad who didn't didn't read or right, but a whole Quran was produced. Um, not only that, the true and living God, if he can stand the test of time, he's going to allow some sort of evidence to be manifested or shown.
So, I respect that. Um, and for the sake of this argument, it's about historical evidence, which is what we're relying on. So, >> right. And the historical evidence has been used to persecute and subjugate >> absolutely has my ancestors.
>> Yes, I have which I um presented that as well. Um just because it happened didn't mean it's actually right. It actually goes against the Bible. But again, for the sake of the pro prompt I'm showing you that because of historical evidence, Jesus Christ is God. And using the Bible is what we are able to see. We were able to see Old Testament prophecies. We have over 300 Old Test Old Testament prophecies that have come to pass. We have the documentation of his crucifixion. We also have the empty tomb. No one can explain where his body went. Can you explain that?
>> I can explain that.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> Um, I mean, you said so many things that I would love to respond to, but we're limited for time right now.
>> Um, well, one of the other things is the Quran. You mentioned the Quran. I would like to remind you that the Quran and the Bible came from the same place.
>> No, they did not.
>> Yes, that's absolutely of the >> Allah and our true God are not the same.
And we completely disagree with that.
>> And that's fine. I'm telling you, you don't even haven't even read the Bible or the Quran. I've studied both. I'm telling you.
>> I mean, that's a pretty bold assumption that a lot of us weren't raised Christian and haven't gone to Bible study.
>> I assume my apologies. Have you read the Bible and the Quran?
>> I was raised both Muslim and Christian.
>> Okay. My apologies for assuming that.
Okay. So, why do you say that the Bible and the Quran came from the same person?
>> Because it did. the Abrahamic religions have a trail of >> Judaism and Christianity and um >> Islam, you know, and it's from the Tanakh that the Torah was, you know, which is the laws that the Bible or the Quran are basically created through. And the Quran is supposed to be the more precise version of it. But >> Christianity was created yes thousands of years after Jesus's demise by numerous of scribes >> and you know through a period of time and so a lot of different people have implemented their own versions of what they want people to believe of what they want people like you vulnerable people that are looking for >> completely like strengthened by the Jesus Christ I'm not >> exactly so please don't put that on me cuz I am not I'm victorious through Jesus a and I love that for you.
>> Yeah. So, let me respond to your prompt.
So, you said that the Quran in the Bible are the same completely wrong. Um Muhammad is a false prophet. He came to um completely turn people away from Jesus. So, um even the Quran says that the Bible I'm just one one second. The Quran says that Allah confirms the Torah and the Gospel, but they are also completely um a mismatch. So for example, the Quran says that it was only made to appear that Jesus was crucified, but that is contrary to the Bible. So we also say we also hear that Muhammad is the last and final prophet, but Jesus said it is finished. So although it kind of stems from it, it's it's not the same. That is so typical, I'm sorry, of Christian dogma that that you would you would deny the existence of the right to somebody else to believe in their own prophet.
>> You didn't deny anyone.
>> And yes, you said, you know, Muhammad was a false prophet.
>> He was a false prophet. He existed >> in your mind.
>> No, according to >> But to many people, no.
>> Okay.
>> I was raised as an atheist and my my core belief is in science and provable fact. And a lot of the things that you take on faith are completely disproven by scientific fact. And you say there's evidence of, you know, an empty tomb is evidence of nothing.
>> You know, maybe maybe somebody wanted Yeah. Maybe somebody wanted the robe >> to eat people to gain their powers.
>> So what about it?
>> So how did they get in there and eat Jesus?
>> You don't know. Just an assumption.
Yeah. Well, >> I we get up to the fact that there was a a Jesus and there there was seems to have been documented out from outside sources. You base your opinions only on one document and you use the other things that you read to justify what you have been taught over and over and over again. There's a huge leap between crucifixion and this fantasy of of >> Jesus flying your mouth.
you know, the resurrection, the going up into the sky and the and the coming back, all the fantasy. But those things, if you really study, Mesopotamia had many many um incidences of belief of the virgin birth, of the of the prophet that was killed. There's many many things that are documented all over but your sole belief rests in this one document that you take as absolute truth >> and that's not true. You have to study and study and always leave room that there are other ways to look at things.
>> Yeah, totally. Just to correct you on that. You said I'm looking at one document. The whole prompt is that there are historical evidence as I mentioned that there's Josephus, there's Tyithus, there's Py, the Ro the >> resurrection and and all of the fantasy that you have.
>> Yeah. It's not fantasy, it's miraculous and and I'm saying like if you think it's fantasy, then explain the empty tomb. Where did the body go?
>> Who knows?
>> Yeah. So, you have to think they ate him. You still have a ritual of eating the body and blood of Christ. That's what I'm saying.
>> They literally ate people back then.
They ate black people for one to gain our powers.
>> Yeah. So, I'm saying Jesus was powerful was heavily guarded. So, who's eating it?
>> Who's who ate it?
>> Where were the bones? Did they eat the bones, too? They found pigs. Like, what's going on?
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>> So my next prompt is if there is no god, right and wrong or just opinions and not truth.
>> This is your prompt. Come on.
Hi, I'm Naomi.
>> I'm Savannah.
>> I'm Sophia.
>> I'm Bella.
>> Awesome. So, my second prompt is if there is no God, right and wrong are just opinions and not truth.
>> I have a question.
>> Yeah.
>> So, if God, in your opinion, is God saying things are good because they are good or are things good because God says they are?
>> They're good because he's holy and he has a holy standard.
>> Okay.
I just want to clear up. I Well, I guess I'll start by saying like I'm not saying that atheists don't have morality. That that's bizarre. Obviously, I know you told me I had tape on my shoe. Like I think you're awesome. Um but like um I'm saying like these like really nuanced things like as I mentioned before before we rolled the camera, I said that I had two abortions. That was my come to Jesus moment. So before coming to Christ, I just was like, "Hey, if this pregnancy is an inconvenience, I I can have an abortion. That's fine." So like even the issue of abortion, like everyone is like pro-choice, my body, my choice, but no one agrees on when is the appropriate time to take a when is the appropriate time to have an abortion. What's the max we can go? No one really agrees because ultimately the Lord says abortion's murder. The Lord says that abortion is an abomination. The shedding of innocent blood is an abomination, which I actually did. So, um, even the topic of abortion, some people say that it's right, others say that it's it's an abomination. So, what do you guys think about that?
>> If you're saying like in a world where there is God, abortion is bad. Are you saying then in a world without God, abortion is not bad, then? Because without God, there is more no morality.
>> I don't even know if I can answer that because without God, I don't think that we would even be here. So, it is just like it doesn't even like >> Well, I want to play into your worldview of like there is a God. Try to play into mine really quick. If there is no God, is it still wrong for me to like throw a baby off a roof?
>> Yeah, I think so.
>> Okay. So, then God doesn't play anything in morality.
>> I think he does cuz he's a holy God and he sets the standard.
>> But if there is no God in the world, it's still wrong for me to throw.
>> So, you're trying to get me to come on your playing field, which I can't do because I'm trying to come on yours, too.
>> Yeah. Because I'm defending God. So, I can't even like respectfully. I just can't understand that. But, we're talking about if there is a God. So, I I'd like to keep it on that that playing field if possible. Can I ask so and I former Christian when you say can you read the the ending of the prompt actually one more time >> um if there's no god right and wrong or just opinions and not truth >> okay and I want to make sure that I'm understanding it at the same time so truth versus right and wrong to you what is your relationship with those two dichotoies like um the relationship between right and wrong and true and untrue and >> the the crux of it for me that I struggled with even as a Christian was let's say you know I'm a Christian and you're a Christian just for the sake of argument. We're both Christians and we both believe that Jesus was the son of God. That's a truth.
>> And you might go out and do something and I might go out and do the same thing and they might be two different things and we think they're good and bads. You know, we both believe that Jesus is the son of God, but uh we have different opinions on abortion. Like I have a Christian friend who is pro-life and one that's pro-choice. So their ideas of right and wrong are different but their truth is the same. How do you reconcile that?
>> Yeah. So Jesus says in John 14:6 that he's the way, the truth, and the life.
Um and no one can come to come come to the father except through him. So when I consider truth, I I consider what Jesus says like what is what what is the standard that he holds within the Bible.
And then the truth for you is the that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And that that might play out differently in individuals or is there >> Yeah, for sure. If they don't believe, of course, it would be different for them. But I think that's the standard of truth.
>> Okay. And if if Christians disagree on what is right and wrong, >> then we would just have to go to the Bible because they submit to the Bible as their ultimate authority.
>> Okay.
>> So, yeah.
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah. Can I ask how you relate politically and how does that line up with your divine sense of what is right and wrong?
>> Yeah, I'm a kingdom citizen. I'm not Democrat nor Republican. I think both parties are crazy.
>> I can get on that.
>> Come on. Yeah, I'm not neither.
>> Yeah. I guess when I asked like in the world with like with God, it's still wrong to throw the baby off the roof because we're valuing like humans like having it's it's less that I'm saying it's an opinion and more like you kind of said it. It's like what is the truth? You want to go back to the Bible and it's like I have read the Bible. It's been a minute, but I don't think that the God of the Bible is good. Like that's not moral. Like he's killing people all the time.
>> He says it's wrong to be like gay. And it's like I can't conceptualize how that is the truth. Yeah, >> that's moral.
>> Well, yeah. So, for example, like okay, we talk about abortion. Um, like you said that we said the the Bible says the shedding of innocent blood is an abomination before that. I just didn't see it that way until I realized the it almost killed me. You know, I was depressed. I was about to take my own life. Or even with the um topic of like pedophilia and child rights, like we know that's horrific, but even in the Muslim culture, Muhammad married a nine-year-old and had sex with her. Or we see, you know, like >> God impregnated a child.
>> Yeah. But no, she she wasn't a child.
She was to be married.
>> She was not an adult.
>> In Jewish culture back then, they were betrod to be married between the ages of like 11 to 16. So we know she was an adult and God impregnated this child.
>> In her defense, she would have been considered an adult at the time. The average lifespan morality, >> right? I I totally hear your question, but I do want to in your I do understand that the Virgin Mary would have been considered an adult at the time. So, I do understand that part. That part we can agree on.
>> Yeah, I understand. And that's totally a good point. Um, it never actually says her age. Ultimately, she wasn't a child though because she was consented to be married. So, she wasn't actually a child. Um, but yeah, fair point. Like, um, >> God is much older than her, right? So, like there's a power god impregn he's a spirit. He's our god.
>> But in the sense of like there's a power dynamic there. Why would God pick this?
He can make uh bodies, humans. He can make everything from dust. Why impregnate? I'm going to keep calling her a child because in my eyes, anybody that's younger than 18, that's a child.
Okay.
>> Why Why impregnate a child just for you to exist as a man on earth?
>> Yeah, that's a good question. Um, when the angel Gabriel told her that she would be pregnant, she considered it a great honor and she was really really excited about it. So, it wasn't like she was like, "Oh my god, like I'm some invaded." No, she didn't say that. So, she she actually considered a great honor. And we have the Catholic Church who actually it seems are higher than Jesus which is weird. But ultimately she accepted it graciously. So she wasn't like distraught or upset about it. Not to necessarily like respond to what you just said. Um but another thing I want to say is I feel like in the Bible there are so many things that in my atheist opinion are inherently wrong. like how the fact that God is able to like I mean you said it earlier take out and kill all of his people like with I don't know maybe this is gonna sound crazy and maybe I'm getting it wrong but like Noah's arc when he drowned everyone just because >> I don't get how you guys can base your morality off of some someone who is okay with all of that but like human things such as homosexual homosexuality you know >> I don't know like abortion things like that. How can that be considered wrong >> when God is chill with like mass genocide basically? You know what I mean? I don't the the line is kind of crazy to me because it's like >> for gay people like it's loving each other and that has so much so much uproar in the Christian community whereas everyone's like God is so amazing and moral and perfect but also I'm scared of him but also you can't be gay but also I'm chill with him killing people and doing crazy things. I I hear you. So yeah, there's a lot of harsh things within the Old Testament. I am not going to deny that. Okay. Um even with the flood, all right, he wasn't it's divine judgment. All right, the Bible said that people were just incredibly wicked and evil. But not only that, like you see a lot of harsh things in the Bible. You see that there was slavery. You see that there's a penalty for um a disobedient son to to be stoned. Like you see that if there is a a a woman that's committing adultery, she's to be stoned. That's incredibly harsh. But I look in the New Testament, I'm like, do I see that in the New Testament? Well, I see a a child, a a son being condemned to death, but then I see a prodigal son coming home. In the New Testament, I see a woman committing adultery and commanded to be stoned to death. But in the New Testament, I see Jesus saying, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." I see slavery in the Old Testament. I'm wondering why that's happening. But in the New Testament, I see who the son sets free is free indeed. So I'm looking at the Old and I'm looking at the New and I'm like, "Dang, this is harsh." Well, here we have freedom. So what's the difference? The difference is the sacrifice. It's Jesus Christ that came down. Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law." So when I'm looking, I'm reasoning, I'm like, "Lord, what's all this judgment? What's why is this happening?" Because the wages of sin is death. And before Jesus Christ, people had to die for their sins. That's why when I had an abortion, I had the feeling like I got to die. There's the only reason, the only way I can pay for this abortion is if I die because I killed somebody. But because Jesus Christ came back, he said, "No, you don't have to die because I already I already died for your place." And that's why we have the gospel. So yes, Old Testament things incredibly harsh, even a little weird. All right. But after we have the New Testament, we have Jesus, we have that perfect sacrifice, our sins are atoned for. We don't we don't see that in the New Testament. Would you say that God's morality has changed then?
>> No, I would say there's a sacrifice that came. There is someone who actually paid the price for our sins. So, the morality didn't change. We just have a sacrifice to took on that.
>> Why do we need human sacrifice for God to forgive us though? Like why did like the thing with the Bible? It's like God really likes human sacrifice. That's not a god worth.
>> Like human sacrifice.
>> He does. He had to.
>> No. Okay. So there there were no human sacrifices that he required in the Old Testament. We had bulls. We had rhin frames. We had goats. had. So there there was no Jesus. Yeah. In the Old Testament, I'm talking about there were no human sacrifices. When we come to Jesus, Jesus was not a human sacrifice.
He willingly gave up his life. He says, "No one can take my life, but I willingly gave it gave it up for myself." So he was not a human sacrifice. He willingly gave it up for us because he loves us.
>> That sounds like a human sacrifice.
>> Willingly a human sacrifice is I'm killing you whether you like it or not.
Human sac is not willingly giving up your life is not human sacrifice. Okay, I feel like we got a little off topic, but >> I think I I'm figuring out a point where we we might actually agree, but tell me if I'm wrong.
>> Okay, >> so >> and there's this amazing theologian uh William Craig and he talks about this and this might be what your belief is is >> the fact that we have that sense of guilt and shame >> is a sign that there is a God that is a divine now and you might believe that. I don't want to assume and and I believe that that is not true and we disagree there. But you mentioned the Old Testament and the New Testament and it sounds like for you the old the New Testament is an answer and almost a correction to the Old Testament where Jesus says, "I didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."
>> And >> I didn't say it was a correction. She was a fulfillment.
>> A fulfillment. Okay. I'm sorry. A fulfillment of And that to that I actually understand.
You know, there's the joke of the Old Testament God versus the New Testament God. But this idea that Jesus is saying we're bringing in forgiveness and love and fulfilling the law with that. And >> I'm wondering if we agree on the idea that humanity has the ability to evolve their sense of right and wrong. And that's not proof that there's God or that there isn't, but that that can kind of live independently.
I believe that humans have had the ability to establish right and wrong and course correct when they see it's not going so great >> and the Bible we see that too and you know there is genocide in the Bible and there are I will say just there are some human sacrifices in the Old Testament >> that got condemned >> what's that >> that got condemned >> that got condemned um for the most part uh there are >> not all of them >> well now I've read the original and that's sounds annoying, but I've read the original in Hebrew and Greek and there there are a few instances where, you know, the woman is taken and she's taken into the house and we could let's let's we can go back to that.
>> But that's not my point and I don't want to get bogged down in that.
>> My question is, is there a place where we could perhaps agree or not in that humanity's sense of right and wrong can change and that there is beauty in that?
because I do think there is beauty in humans learning from their mistakes, figuring out that something isn't wrong, that is it's wrong, and then course correcting. And I love to use the I used to be a pastor, and I love the that people would always come to me and say, you know, 2 Timothy 2:12, like a woman shouldn't speak in church. It's like, well, women back then couldn't read or write, so they shouldn't be preaching because they can't read the Bible. They they can't read and write. And but we've course corrected since then and now we have incredible women like you sitting here being able to preach and tell the story of God. And I I think that that course correction and being able to slowly understand, use context, learn that human sacrifice doesn't really get us far. Uh I find that beautiful. Even as a Christian, I found that beautiful.
And I'm I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that or if we maybe agree on that that humans can change their mind and learn, ooh, this is wrong >> as a society. we should course correct and that that maybe is the gray area where we agree.
>> Yeah, I do agree that um what may be right in one time people can change like for example slavery. We were enslaved for 400 years then we course corrected.
>> Yeah. But how many African-Americans are set back because of that or like we have like the experiment with the government where they gave people syphilis. Oh, it was wrong but sorry. Okay, but how many people suffer? What? So it's just like yeah we can course correct and we can learn from our mistakes but but we have an ultimate truth that we can actually go by so we don't have to do all those things >> and we just we differentiate on where that I guess where God plays into that I think is where we probably disagree.
>> I think that God plays in the true morality of it. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Well I think if you were to take away God then we kind of know inherently we have a unified sense of morality. Like you could ask any human I think we could more or less agree on what is right or wrong. Yes. there's narcissists and sociopaths and they have like a warped sense of what is okay. But if you take away them, a very small percentage of the population, then we kind of agree on things. And I also want to piggyback off of what you said. I think that morality does change over time as our systems evolve, as life evolves. Maybe human sacrifice was okay back then, somewhat accepted. Um, but we are 2,000 years later and we live in a very different reality.
>> Yeah, that's a good point. So you said like for the most part, no one's just shooting people in the street.
Obviously, we know that's un >> Well, that is happening, but >> it is happening, but it's it's I I hate to say that it's it's rare, but it's not even rare anymore. So, anyway, it's happening, but like say, okay, I know some people mention it. We're going to get on this topic. Sexual sin. All right. Um I know people are awesome people, but according to the Bibles, people are committing sexual sin, which I did. Prior to coming to Christ, I fornicated. I was a fornicator, you know, but >> how dare you?
>> How dare I? I know. And when I came to Christ, I still fornicated a little bit until I was reading the Bible and the Lord was like, "Forns will not inherit the kingdom of God." And I'm like, "Bro, but for real, it's just sex." But it's like God is a holy God and because I love him, I will honor his commandments.
The Lord says, "If you love me, keep my commandments." And I realize why it's important to wait until marriage to have sex because, let me just finish. because of the abortion that sin leads to devastating consequences. So, I agree with your point. Morality is >> Yeah.
>> Ultimately, I'll let you finish because I know you guys are like, >> "Yeah." So, who decides how does sexual sin lead to an abortion? Because we have so many contraceptive methods. I just don't see the direct line at all.
>> Ask any woman hopping into abortion clinic, she most of them have committed sexual sin. Not all, but for me, based on the abortions that I had, it was as a result of sexual sin. It's not I mean do you know the um statistics of many married couples having abortions? I know there are some but I can't imagine that it's more than those who are not married.
>> Final thought I just wanted to say why or I don't know if I can ask a question necessarily but like why is sex even considered a sin if it's natural? You know what I mean? Like it's a human instinct desire. And that's coming from someone who I get play.
However, I'm not like I'm it's not like I'm not a huge I'm not a sexual person necessarily, but I just I don't understand why Christianity paints sex as such a terrible thing when it's literally just human desire. And why would God make it for us before marriage? Like why would God allow us to do it before marriage in the not allow us but like you know have make us have the desire to do it before marriage if it is such a sin. So ultimately sex is not this horrific thing. Sex is a beautiful awesome gift from God for married couples. It's an incentive for people to get married. There's a lot of Let me finish. There's a devastating effect that happens when people are having sex with so many people. The Bible says the two shall become one fleshes flesh. The Bible also says, "Do you not know if you have sex with a prostitute, you become one body with her?" So there's a a spiritual effect with actually having sex outside of marriage. And I know there we can go on to that's a whole another debate, but ultimately there is danger in having sex outside of marriage.
>> You said a little bit about that.
>> I mean, hey, I got to tell the truth.
>> That needs to be in your life.
>> I got to tell the truth, you know. Um, the third prompt is pain and suffering are not proof that God does not exist.
>> Come on down.
Hi, I'm Ailen.
>> I'm Nat Constana.
>> I'm Joe.
>> So, the third prompt is pain and suffering are not proof that God does not exist.
>> I kind of feel like we need to just start with just qualifying before we get into pain and suffering that something a universal thing existing.
We have to put the burden of proof on the claim. So we cannot prove that God does not exist because we would have to search every corner of the universe at the same time, you know, to discover whether or not he's not there. So, so the burden of proof is to prove God. I would posit that the amount of pain and suffering that we see is not compatible with the idea of if if we imagined a universe that a god, a good God who knew all and could do anything would create that would result in so much needless suffering.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I would say it's unlikely to believe that a good God who could do anything would create the world as it is.
>> Okay. Interesting. So just to start you start off by saying we cannot prove that God does not exist.
>> Yes.
>> So that you can't prove you can't prove a negative, >> right?
>> You can't So that makes you agnostic then if you cannot prove that God >> No. No. I I don't believe that there is a God because um I haven't been convinced at this point. I used to be.
I'm a former Christian. Uh but at this point in my life, I have no reason that I see now to actually believe the truth of the claim.
>> Okay?
>> So, I don't believe just not believing in a god means you're an atheist. But admitting that we can't know for certain. Like, if God does exist, we could discover it if we found evidence.
But that hasn't been presented enough obviously because we have all of us here that don't believe. If it was clear that it was true, we would believe. We can't choose what we believe.
>> Okay.
>> You know, we're either convinced of something or we're not.
>> Okay. So, back to the pain and suffering. So, you think because there is pain and suffering that a god does not exist. I think that if we were to imagine a world created, put into existence um by a good God that wanted to see good things, that loved the creation, the the the people walking around, the the uh all of the creatures, that we wouldn't see all the pain and suffering that we do. Um, we could explain some of I know that a lot of Christians will explain that uh some suffering that people go through might have a benefit towards like character building um experiencing joyful things after some strife and struggle to get there. Um, but in particular, how do you explain animal suffering with the millions and millions of years of animals suffering through the evolutionary process before humans even got here? If we are the ones that he cares about, why would he set a world in motion that would require mass extinctions of conscient >> before we even got here?
>> Okay. Yeah. Interesting points. So ultimately, you're looking for like a utopia where there's no pain, no suffering, no disease, no sickness, rainbows, butterflies, all that.
>> No, I'm not looking for a utopia. I'm living in this world. This is all I know.
>> I know. But ultimately, you would prefer that. Like no sickness, no disease.
>> I'm not putting um I'm not putting a preference on it. I'm looking at the world as we see it >> and I'm I'm hearing your claim and Christians claims >> about a good God existing.
>> Yeah. And I'm trying to make sense of the world as I see it.
>> And there's just so much contradicting the idea that a good God who could do anything, >> right, >> would put it into place this way.
>> Got it.
>> And until I see like some explanation, I don't need to make up an explanation or just accept an explanation unless I'm convinced of it.
>> Got it. So ultimately, there is a redemptive plan. Um in Revelation 12:4, the Bible says that there God will wipe every tear for their eye. There will be no sorrow, no sickness, no death, no disease. It also says in the book of Isaiah when you talk about animal suffering, it says the lion will eat with the lamb. The the lion will eat straw like an ox. The the Bible says that the child will put its hand in the cobra's den. Um and yeah, so it's just like yeah, it sounds sounds funny apparently, but um it's true. There's a redemptive plan. There's going to be a a time when the Lord comes back and he restores. There's going to be a new heaven and a new or a new earth. So this suffering that there's we are experiencing in this world, there's a redemptive plan for that.
>> The devil can quote scripture for his purpose. So you >> are you calling me a devil?
>> Well, I am pointing out that knowledge of the Bible well enough to quote it does not make you right.
>> I didn't say that, but we're this is a Christian debate.
>> And it and it doesn't matter if you know the Bible. I don't. I've read some of it, but I thought it was horrible, so I put it down. Um, but um I would argue actually that the pain and suffering the world is more proof of God because that guy was all about pain and suffering.
>> Really, you're on the wrong prompt then.
You probably should go sit down and let someone else.
>> I You know what? I won't because it's really uh it's sickening the what God actually did and we talked about this earlier. I mean he said go into this take this land even though there are people living there run your sword through the pregnant belly of a woman and I don't know how that is that >> don't even remember I cannot give you chapter and verse but please go look it up and come back no I don't have to know it if you're making >> I don't have to know it and this also brings me to the ten commandments which are just a terrible list for the most part some of them are clearly like don't murder. But we're talking about a very petty, insecure father basically when the first four of the commandments have nothing to do with morality and they're just kiss my ass, kiss my ass some more, don't kiss anyone else's ass, and spend one whole day a week kissing my ass.
>> Got it. Okay, so let's go. I You may Okay, let me let let me interject. This is not a therapy session, so you may want to go to a counselor for that.
We're sticking to the prompt here. pain and suffering are not proof that God does not exist. Does anyone have any evidence for this a claim?
>> Yeah, I think if we're going um as if we're using God defined by Christianity, um God should be all loving, all powerful, and all knowing. And to me, um it does not make sense that he could be all of those simultaneously and also all of this suffering be put into existence.
you were talking about um the coming back of God like he's going to come back and create a new heaven and a new earth that is going to be painless and no suffering and which to me shows me he has the power to do that and he knew that this was going to happen but he let this happen anyway and now he's making us pay for it when he could have just made it perfect the first time around.
>> Yeah. So in the beginning we talk about Genesis and Adam and Eve. It says through one man sin entered the world and death through sin and death spread to all creation. So we have an understanding of why we live in a fallen world. Some people may also say oh if God can just end the suffering why doesn't he just do it? Okay well he start he'd have to start with you first.
He'd have to start with me first because I don't do everything right. If he wants to get rid of all the evil he has to kill me. He has to kill any of us because we are not perfect. Um but ultimately here's the thing. God did not promise that there would not be any suffering. Jesus actually said in this world you will have trouble but take heart. I have overcome the world. Jesus gives us an actual blueprint for how to overcome suffering. He didn't say that we it would be non-existent.
>> He could wait. Sorry. I have a follow-up.
>> Yeah.
>> First I just want to be clear on what you believe so that I know that I'm not assuming. Um I've I hear from a lot of Christians you said we know how sin entered the world. Um so in the beginning it was perfect and God gave us free will. Um we chose to use that free will to disobey him and that's how sin entered the world therefore suffering.
Okay. So that to me says the mostly the reason for suffering is free will. Um so will we not have free will in heaven? We will.
>> But there's no suffering in heaven.
>> Yeah. So this is where the Bible there not everyone's going to get into heaven.
All right. So the Bible says John 3:3, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they have been born again. So no one's just going to enter the heaven enter heaven with the same heart that they had on earth. They're going to enter heaven with a heart that's aligned with Christ.
So when you have free will in heaven, you're not having free will based on your sinful nature. You're having free will based on a a transformed heart. Why are humans on trial when God has the power? Like heaven for itself even in the beginning like there's the fallen angel. To me, it shows that there is a place before all of this where everything was perfect and everyone loved God and there was free will and some angels rebelled and they were casted out and everyone else got to live there in great life with God. Why did he create a world for humans without that? It's not like that. Why did one human mess up and then everybody else has to pay for it when there's evidence that he has created a world where it is perfect? And if you do something wrong, cool, you're going to pay for it, but everyone else gets to have a great life.
But we have to pay for it.
>> Decisions we didn't make. And also God gave us a choice without giving us knowledge and then he made knowledge of sin. Um it it sounds like a great power imbalance like this all knowing all powerful person saying hey >> I know you don't know what that means but that tree has knowledge and don't eat it.
>> Okay so let's start with knowledge is not a sin. Um the Bible says God says come let us reason together. He says if what if knock ask and you it it shall be given to you. So knowledge is not a sin.
He encourages us to study his word. Um, number two, what do you mean about trial? There's no trial here. There's a redemptive plan. A lot of people are like, "Oh, how could a loving God send people to hell?" Ultimately, the question is, how could you have a redemptive plan and not accept it?
There's no trial period here. It's God presenting his loving son and a redemptive plan to restore humanity. And there's people that reject it. There's no trial period here. It's a truth that's been presented. and people have the opportunity to whether to accept it or reject it.
>> I just have a final thought and I'll let you speak. I just want to say I think it it I mean again I'll just make my point.
It just does not sound um it doesn't sound reasonable to me that someone that knows everything and loves deeply would allow all this suffering to happen.
>> Define the suffering >> to even bring redemption and what suffering. I will say this like my my stance and my final point will be I'm not all loving. I'm not all powerful and I'm not all knowing and I would never send anyone to burn for eternity.
>> God doesn't send any Okay. And I'll end with this. God does not send anyone to burn for eternity. We ultimately reject him and we send ourselves there.
Ultimately, if I'm going to answer your prompt because I don't believe that the Bible is true, then I'm going to come at this from a very realistic point of view. As somebody who works in social justice and used to and continues to advocate for uh animal rights and liberation, I think where I'm coming from is personally as somebody who was raised Christian and no longer believes that the Bible is the true word of a God. Um what I see is that human beings are the ones that assign what is good and what is bad. It is a human invention. Therefore pain and suffering are also can be experienced physically.
But the emotion that comes out of it is also a human invention. And the reason I think that is because when I see how an animal suffers in a slaughter house, that is something that is inflicted upon them and they have the physical experience of pain and suffering. I too had an abortion that I did not want to have because I was a teenager when it happened. But ultimately the grief that I felt as a 16-year-old and that I felt throughout my adult life ultimately I came to the understanding that that was that part of grieving that pain and suffering that some people might say I was able to deal with that pain and suffering through therapy through a lot of conversation with myself and my parents. God a God the Bible did not provide me the freedom that I was seeking from the grief that I was experiencing when somebody dies. For instance, my grandmother, very Catholic woman, she just died this last um fall.
the pain and suffering that I experienced from having lost her and not having had that last conversation with her about her life, about why she believed the things that she believed.
Ultimately, I can still reconcile with that pain and suffering myself. I don't need a Jesus that existed 2,000 years ago that may or may not have said certain things about pain and suffering to tell me how I should deal with that suffering or to tell me that that suffering is good or bad. Ultimately, the reason I don't kill an animal or I don't kill a human being is because I know that I would experience that same pain and suffering if it happened to me.
Therefore, I don't need a Bible to tell me that that is going to cause pain and suffering or that that is good or bad.
>> But you did kill a human being.
>> No, I killed I didn't. The doctor did.
No, you did.
>> But it was a psycho. It was a bunch of self. And this is the problem. The issue that I have with Christianity is that you're they're always trying to assign judgment onto something that realistically happened. Right.
>> Your baby. No, I was literally 6 weeks pregnant. There was no heartbeat. There was no nothing. So, if we're going to talk about morality, if we're going to talk about pain and suffering, then we have to talk about it realistically, not in a fantasy. I kind of wanted to go back to the Noah's arc for just a second just because um that's talking about okay we can we can kind of explain why some humans might go through suffering and I can understand the reasoning behind maybe somebody was brought to God because of that but imag like imagining that the that Noah's arc the flood was all real which I don't I don't take that as I don't assume that that was true that God would choose to to force all of the other animals in existence and humans to suffer for the sins of one species.
Mass extinction, right? Um that doesn't make sense. And and just to just to take it on faith that there's some explanation that I can't understand, that doesn't get me to God.
>> Yeah. So I I think I mentioned this earlier. It's about divine judgment. God is the giver of life and he takes it away. However he wants to do that is on him. And I mentioned before like we've seen divine judgment where mass people are being killed, but we don't see that in the new. And I mentioned before that's because there's a sacrifice.
People are not dying for their sins anymore. We have Jesus who paid the price. So we do not have to pay that price.
>> This is all still coming from the presupposition that God exists and we haven't had that demonstration.
>> Yeah. So >> enough for any of us to be convinced.
>> Yeah. So that's my answer. If you don't like it, you can go find your another answer for you. But that's the answer that I have.
>> I just don't need to make up something to explain the way it is. You know, if I'm okay to say I don't know why things are the way they are.
>> That's cool.
>> Okay. So, my question is God's all knowing. So, he knew let's like let's look at the world right now. Um I also believe that there can be purpose in suffering but um I don't there are I do believe that there's also unnecessary suffering in people that don't get redemption. and they just suffer all their lives and like babies are born with cancer. They don't get to have conscious and grow up or even get to know Jesus cuz they're just babies, right? So let's say let's look at that like suffering without any like understandable reason. God is all loving and all knowing. So he knew that that was going to happen. Why would you say God would bring humans into this world knowing that they would suffer so much if they love if he loves us so much? Why would you >> and then just die and then just die as a result and there's no re no character building for that experience for that person.
>> Yeah. I just want to know why you think God would bring us here if he loves us so much but he knew that we would suffer so much.
>> Yeah. So ultimately I don't know why God does everything. Um I do know that he allows some certain things to happen. I don't know why. Um but I do know that there is a redemptive plan. So even with kids getting cancer.
>> Why were we created? Why why does God want us here?
>> Okay. So Jeremiah 29:11, he says, "For I know the plans that I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future." So when God creates us, he has great plans for us. Sickness and disease are not within his plan. But sometimes these do happen for a number of reasons.
We live in a fallen world. That's number one. Number two, there is an enemy out here that his job is to steal, kill, and destroy. Number three, there is a result of free will. Sometimes the food that a mother eats may cause cancer. There is a result of many different things. So I'm not exactly sure.
>> Why did God create us? What is >> I just told you.
>> No, you said that he has a he has a plan.
>> But why would he create us? Like what was the point? Is he not fulfilled enough? Like >> he loves us. Why did your parents create us? Why did your mom create you?
>> Okay. So he created us because he loves us. That's what I I wanted to understand from you. Would you yourself bring a child into this world if you knew for certain that they would have a very very excruciatingly painful and suffering life?
>> How would I know that?
>> But but God does. So like would you would you do that if you knew for sure?
>> I mean so ultimately I'm not just going to birth a child because they're going to have a harmful life. I'm going to birth a child because I plan to love that child and I plan to give that child the best life possible. So, no. If you knew that your child was going to suffer awfully, like terrible, you would not bring them.
>> Well, I know that ultimately when I bring a child in this world, there's going to be some suffering. I do understand that there's going to be some times when they're going to have some rough times.
>> But if you knew for certain my child, >> well, I know for a certain I know I don't we all don't we all suffer and die.
>> And if you knew, okay, my child is going to suffer and they're not going to believe in Jesus and they're going to hell, but I'm going to still have them anyway. Would you?
>> How would I know that? Because I know >> God knows that. Yeah, he has a great plan for us. He the Bible says, I I set before you life and death, curses and blessings. Choose life. So God has a great plan for us. He has a plan where he wants us to choose the best, but ultimately because of our free will, we can choose another direction.
>> Okay. The fourth prompt is the complexity and precision of the human body cannot be explained by random processes. Instead, they point to an intelligent creator.
Hi, I'm Kaylee.
Andrea, >> I'm Jennifer.
>> And the fourth prompt is the complexity and precision of the human body cannot be explained by random processes.
Instead, they point to an intelligent creator. Um, and the reason why I chose this is because just looking at the human body and the complexity of it is just mind-blowing. I feel like the human body is one of the most miraculous bio-engineering machines on the planet.
Uh billions and billions of neurons, trillions of cells, um immaculate DNA structures that are um intelligently coded. We have um 15 plus inter um interdependent systems that all work to together. Um the miraculous uh elements of child birth. It's just mind-blowing to me and I I can't look at it and see uh creative and order and design just coming from random processes. So, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that.
>> You know, as with everything, science explains it. And if you look at, you know, again, I was not raised in a in a faith. Um, I had a phenomenal upbringing by people who were very moral and very very cool actually and great pillars of the community.
>> And my my sense of right and wrong and what's going on is much more based on fact and evidence and science and evolution is a long long long process.
Yeah.
>> I mean, when we first started walking, you know, when we evolved from the apes, >> it there's no evidence that had anything to do with God. And as our bodies have changed, it's a process of evolution, not of any divine anything.
>> Do you know when exactly we evolved from apes? Like is there like >> uh >> this one? Can you tell me >> can you tell me when was the exact moment where we split from apes and why are apes still going? And >> it wasn't an exact moment. It was an evolutionary process that happened over time.
>> So how can we still have apes and humans at the same time?
>> They haven't evolved.
>> They haven't evolved, but we did evolve from, >> you know, there are different species and we I mean it's it's well it's factual.
>> Okay. Well, yeah, let's stick with the human body. Um you mentioned science, which I love. I think science is awesome. I'm a Christian who fully supports science, but I believe that science is just the study of God's design. So, um I would ask y'all, when was the last time that you've seen such creative order and design stem from random processes?
>> Every day. Pre pre- Darwin, I can see why people would think this human body is so complex, >> and it is. But as Andrea was saying, >> um, evolution is on such a time scale, >> it is difficult for the human mind to grasp that we're just talking numbers so big and so long and it's a tiny minute process. So asking the question at what point you you can't though >> my question that's not a valid question.
It is my question though is a very slow tiny bitby-bit process. So there is no >> you didn't answer my question though.
>> What is the question?
>> My question was when have you seen rand like order in design happen by random process?
>> Every day all around us all animals people.
>> Tell me how.
>> It's how >> it's called uh evolution.
>> Yeah. Every we experience evolution every day. I'm asking when have you seen order and design come by random process?
I >> mean what do you mean by random process?
Like just the miraculous stuff that we're talking about this >> your shirt. All right. It's a great shirt. It's It's been stitched well. It has great order.
>> It didn't just happen by chance. Someone created your shirt. Let's look at a car, a Tesla. Order and design.
>> Technology that people created.
>> Exactly. That's what I'm saying.
>> Wasn't created by God.
>> But I'm getting to a point here. When have you seen order and design just happen by random chance?
>> Creating all those things that you just listed, right?
>> No, they >> God didn't create a Tesla. People created Tesla and technology. Let me understand. Am I missing something?
>> Yeah, you are.
>> I said when have we seen order and design happen by random chance?
>> Well, if you're talking about per people making things, that's a different question. If you're talking about the human body was the prompt, right?
>> Yes. But I'm making a point outside of it because we know that our body comes from order and design. We're fearfully and wonderfully made.
>> Does it though? Do we know that?
>> I mean, I can show you it comes from survival of the fittest. I'm I'm just saying if you look at your body like it is incredibly and well structured. You have your cardiovascular system, your nervous system, your muscular system, your skeletal system. You have billions of neurons, trillions of cells, miles wide long of DNA structure that is intellectually encoded.
>> It's you are incredibly amazing and unique and amazing. Did that happen by chance? Do you think?
>> Yes. Uh because that's that's how evolution works >> and we're still evolving. And we're still evolving.
>> People before were were really little.
We're getting taller and taller and taller.
>> People had hair much much more hair.
We're losing a lot of that. They say eventually we'll lose our little toe and our little finger because they're not great.
>> Yeah, I understand that.
>> So, we are still evolving.
>> I understand that as a species. I understand. But again, I'm asking, >> do you guys know how a big bang created so much order in design >> evolution? When have we seen? But I'm saying like how have we seen that based on what we see now?
>> Can you recall of Okay, let's say that I have a massive explosion in my kitchen.
I I make some food and it just bursts everywhere. Is it going to perfectly land on my table, perfectly cut? And no, it's not. It's going to be a massive explosion that I have to clean up. So, I'm saying like when we see massive explosions that happen today, they don't perfectly fall into perfect synchrony.
So I'm saying if people believe that things just happened out of nowhere, how can we have we seen that today or we're just assuming that big things just create intell intellectual design and order?
>> I mean but you only believe that because the Bible says that.
>> No, I'm not going on the Bible. I haven't cracked one scripture. I'm just asking. So I'm just saying like >> that's a whole discussion. So >> yeah. So I'm not even this is this is not even a Bible conversation. I'm just even just looking at like DNA. DNA is just incredibly immaculate. uh uh Bill Gates said that DNA is more complex than any software coding system on this earth. So if Bill Gates really I'm not going to say anything about him but we know that he's intelligent in coding. We know that people who code there's a coder behind it. We have our DNA which is a fine-tuned intellectually complex code system that's constantly rep replicating and uh creating cells and proteins and all these things is a intricate code. So there has to be some coder. There's there's an intelligent design that's happening within our body.
Can you explain that? that it's an evolution that happened over millennia and it's again that's a really long time for people to try to grasp human beings are bad with numbers that big. So just because it appears uh complex to us right now the human body does not mean that it didn't evolve. Yeah.
>> It just took a really long time.
>> Right. So like I said before like I'm not denying evolution. We started off as a zygote and we have amazing women sitting in front of us today. We've completely evolved throughout our entire life as a child to a toddler to a teen to the women we are. I'm not denying evolution, but there is still some intellectual thought that took place.
Our our hair color changes, our eye color changes, our heart continues to beat. Like who was the one who tells your heart to stop going? How how do you breathe at night on your own? Like there I believe there is it has to be some intellectual thought or creator behind that sustaining our life.
>> Yes. I have a real quick simple.
>> The other designs didn't survive.
>> And what other designs were there?
>> Again, we wouldn't know because they didn't survive.
>> Yeah. But you can't make that claim without telling me what other designs there were.
>> Well, yes, I can because evolution is that's the way evolution works.
>> Yeah. So, what other designs did we have as humans?
>> Growing up from being a baby isn't evolution.
>> It is. Yeah. We're evolving.
>> It's a sort of evolution, but it's not a theory of evolution. It's a type of evolution.
>> But I would like to hear from >> um Can you repeat the prompt again because I I'm lost with the complexity and precision of the human body cannot be explained by random processes.
Instead, they point to an intelligent creator.
>> So, I just want to know, do you believe in magic, witches, and wizards?
>> Probably not.
>> No.
>> No. So is God not like casting spells and being like I'm going to create this.
Let's I want >> I rebuke that in Jesus name. He is not casting spells. He's a miraculous God. I do understand that wishes exist. But their power comes from the kingdom of darkness.
>> But that's how you're saying we came about is like Jesus just said like let this be this and like that happened.
Sorry.
>> What?
>> I'm just asking like like so how do you believe that like we got here?
>> Through Jesus.
>> Yeah. So that's what I'm asking you.
Like so you just believe that he said let this be >> let humans exist. Boom. Just like you said.
>> Yeah. Like I want a human right here.
Boom. Like how does he do it? He just created everything. Boom. Just >> he just spoke through his word and it it was it was so >> and just like how did he know to create every if Jesus created everything then how do you account for Buddhists and Hindus and you know people who are not of your faith.
How do they exist? Jesus didn't, you know, create >> them. Yes, he did.
>> He created them.
>> He created other people to believe in other religions.
>> He created people to choose him, but other people chose opposite of him.
>> So why would he create other religions?
>> He didn't create other religions.
>> But if he created everything on earth and knows everything, then wouldn't that how did the other religion just come?
>> Okay, as I mentioned before, he created people. I never said he created religions.
>> So yeah, let's stick with the prompt.
complexity and precision of the human body.
>> We're trying to follow, but it's a little hard.
>> Yeah. Okay. Well, I know that you were talking. Did you have a point to make?
You mentioned something about witches and things.
>> Well, so you don't believe that they just like poof happened. So, my thing I like evolution like I know it's a movie, but did you watch Planet of the Apes?
>> I did not know.
>> Oh, well, it's great. Um but like um like we are so much like the apes and um like I just learned like I knew we had a lot of DNA but I just learned from this uh wonderful women's shirt uh the bonobos >> bonobos >> bonobos sorry we have like 98.4% DNA like >> similar to apes. Yes.
>> So like >> how can you not think that we are so similar that we have just evolved from them?
>> We're no one can pinpoint when they evolved but if we look at What day was Jesus born? Do we have a day?
>> He was eternal. He's eternal.
>> But we don't have a day for that.
>> He came here came to this earth about 2,000 years ago. The calendar system that we have 2006 was AD. So 2006 2026 he was born 2020 2026 years before this.
>> Okay. Intelligent design. You know, you're you're it makes you make it sound like it should be perfect every time, but we all have different DNA that we got from our parents who got it from their parents, etc., etc., etc. >> And there there are flaws in it. It's not that intelligent. I mean, people are born and have >> cancer or mutations that have Yes.
>> You know, and and >> you know, back to you were talking about babies that you if you had a baby, you would love it. What if you found out that that baby in uterero and there are tests that that will have a very that will live two months and have an excruciatingly painful life and death.
Would you still continue to go ahead with that? Right.
>> Or a baby whose intestines are born outside of its body.
>> Okay. Yeah. So I rebuke that that will never happen to me in Jesus name. But >> but it could it could >> it could but I re I rebuke that that won't happen to me. But in the event that, >> and I rebuke that, it will not happen to me. And let me just answer the question because I'm not accepting word curses.
If that eventually happened, I am going to stick with the pregnancy. I'm I'm going to stick with the pregnancy. I'm not just going to intentionally kill my child >> like I have before.
>> So you'd put a human being through suffering just like God. Yeah, that makes sense.
>> Yeah. Okay. I'm not going to kill my child. Yeah. So any Okay. Ultimately, yeah. Any other prompts? Any other disagreements? I I asked you disagreed with the um intelligent design is uh cannot be explained by random processes.
Um does anyone agree or disagree?
>> Um I disagree.
>> Yeah, they um >> remember evolution is um we didn't come from apes, quote unquote. We have a common ancestor, okay? And one of them mutated enough to develop into homo sapiens, okay? We still have apes, which is cool. I I always wondered when Christians say, "I didn't come from apes." I'm like, what do you have against apes? It's like I like monkeys.
But yeah, so it we have a common ancestor and over millennia we developed u into homo sapiens through many steps.
And this is the age-old argument of well what about the missing link? Well, there is no missing link. It is it's a long slow painful process of mutation and that's okay. And that can come up with an incredibly complex as a matter of fact it did come up with complex human beings, animals, everything on this uh living thing on this planet.
>> Okay. So let's say >> is from evolution.
>> Okay. Got it. So let's say your theory is correct. Let's say that we evolve from monkeys. Would you say this evolution is Let me finish. Thank you.
Would you say that this evolution is an intelligent design or is it just ridiculously stupid?
I would say it's long and painful. It is not intelligent design. If you look there's a famous example of giraffes um that look it up please. Um I it's something in the throat. Don't give me I don't know the details but basically as their necks got longer to reach the higher leaves because the ones that could reach the higher leaves got more food and they're the ones who survived and passed on their genes. um this thing in their throat which pretty much just should have gone, you know, I don't know, straight from front to back went up over all the way and all the way back down >> for no reason other than that their necks kept getting longer and it had to go along with the ride.
>> Got it. So yeah, so ultimately it corrected, right? Yeah. Totally >> I would not call that intelligent.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So ultimately it did correct because we don't see giraffes like that anymore. So based on it did correct ultimately giraffes do not have that hanging down neck anymore.
>> No, no, no, no, no. It's internal something inside their neck.
>> Well, when it kept uh I think it was attached to or on top of something as their necks got longer, it just stayed on top of it. So it goes up and comes all the way back.
>> So that's currently how it is now.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> And it is incredibly >> So So I'm sure based on your theory that eventually evolution will correct that.
No, it doesn't need to. They're surviving as is. They just need to survive. They don't need to be perfect.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. That's But was it better than before when they're like were when they're >> they the the giraffes with the longer necks survived.
>> So ultimately, let's talk about this giraffe thing. Ultimately, their necks were short and they got long. That was an intelligent design that helped them to sustain life better. So ultimately, yes, because the ones who had shorter necks would not be here. So ultimately even the evolutionary process is an intelligent design to allow human beings and animals to live longer which brings me back to my point. It is a system of creativity, design and order which ultimately I believe intelligent creator is behind that process.
My final prompt is religious trauma and hypocrisy in the church does not prove that God does not exist.
The final prompt is religious trauma and hypocrisy in the church does not prove that God does not exist. And the reason why I chose this is because I see a lot of people leave the faith because people that hurt them in the church. And it breaks my heart because it says more about the people than it does about God.
I feel like just because people misrepresent the name of Jesus Christ doesn't mean that that's who God is. So, I just wanted to bring this prompt up to see what your thoughts were about this.
>> Um, so I want to share I mean something a little bit personal I guess not super crazy personal but I mean it is I guess.
So I personally have lost a lot of people um in my life to death. You know like majority of my family members I would say have passed away. Uh but more recently, my grandfather, um he was a devout Greek Orthodox Christian. He would go to church every single week for the entirety of his life basically, however long I knew him before that. He was always at church. He sang in the choir. He all of his friends, his girlfriend, everyone he knew was from church. Um we had because I I grew up Greek Orthodox. I'm baptized Greek Orthodox. However, I don't, you know, obviously believe in that since I'm here. Um, but when I was growing up, we had one specific priest. He was great.
So, super kind guy, so funny, amazing.
Still in contact with him today sometimes. Um, but he switched churches.
So, he went to a different one. and my home church, whatever. Um, got a new guy who is not Greek, who kind of transferred into the religion in a way because, you know, he liked it, he learned about it, he wanted to become a priest for it. And so, he was very by the book, what God said, what Jesus said, very how the Bible, how God spoke to him. He was very, very intense with it. Um so when my grandfather passed away he asked to be cremated which is not um okay in the Greek church. Um but my family you know we're not very religious like personally my me and my father and my brother you know not super religious people. However my grandfather was. So we were like can we have a ceremony for him because he was so dedicated. This was his life. He like it was his life.
Can we have something? Priest was like, "Yeah, sure." New priest was like, "Yeah, sure." So, we went in and he had the ceremony where he didn't do it. He ignored it because of the cremation. He did not believe that my grandfather who had devoted his entire life to the church more than this new priest. He believed because of God, because of what the religion says, that my grandfather was not worthy of that. My old priest, however, after this happened, everyone was very distraught. You know, it was like, we don't get to have a funeral for him because he wanted to be cremated.
This was our only chance at that. Sorry that I'm feeling I'm going to wrap it up. But, um, we were all very upset about it. We went to our old priest at his new church and he was like, "Yeah, you know what? Yeah, we're going to do something for him here." So, we had a whole thing for him at the other church.
And I think that shows that you can be a good person without the God. And God is is kind of what makes religious people like it can it affects them in that way because he he went by the book. He went by what God said. My old priest, he was more Yeah. You know what? Let's let's do this. I get you.
>> Yeah. I So I think it was the fact that he was so devout to the Christian religion, the first guy that um >> Let me pause you cuz I totally and everyone here understands too. So, I'm so sorry that happened to your granddad.
He should have had the proper burial that he deserved. And what I can tell you about that priest is he misrepresented God because there is nowhere in the Bible does it tell you that you can and cannot get cremated at all. So, I condemn what that priest did.
And I think that he should be removed from his position because that is not okay. And I'm really sorry that happened to you.
>> Thank you. Yeah.
>> But yeah, but what I was trying to get at with that was um my old our old priest, he was a very good person. And I think that was because he was a good person.
>> I think with the new priest, however, the reason that he was being a quote unquote bad person was because of the religion and because of the god that he was following. You know what I mean?
Because he wanted to follow it so exactly that he ignored his human morals and he >> went with it.
>> Yeah. Well, let me let me just say this.
I don't know if that makes sense.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. So the other one was a priest too, right? Yes.
>> Okay. So there are anointed priests >> and there are some that who are just not anointed and they want to do it for their own selfish reasons. The priest that you had a great experience with I most likely he was anointed to do that.
But also for this other priest, you're saying that he was by the book following these things. I just mentioned that there's nothing in the Bible that says you can't get cremated.
>> Religion has had is rife with hypocrisy.
I mean, you look at how the Catholics converted this the South Americans and the and the native populations. They raped. They they killed them when they wouldn't follow.
>> And that's happened all throughout history. And look at now how religion is being used as a cudgel, as a tool. These people who are brainwashed >> into thinking that >> certain people in power are correct just because they profess to be religious.
Yes. And and they're they're locking up children. They're locking up citizens.
They're shooting people in the streets.
All in the name of religion.
>> Yeah. So, let me let me So, in I agree with you. There has been like horrific things that have happened from religion >> throughout history.
>> Throughout history, we've seen it with slavery. We've seen it with we've seen it and we see it today with even like ICE and raids and killing people. I publicly condemn that. That is demonic because Jesus was a refugee and the Bible says to accept the foreigner and love the foreigner. So I condemn the Trump administration for using the name of the Lord in vain like that and misrepresenting the true gospel. So I selling Bibles.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And selling Bibles. I condemn that too because he's he's preaching the word and he's selling Bibles but he does not live it. So President Trump I condemn him for that.
So not all people not all people who come in the name of religion are actually sent by the Lord or have the fruits of that.
>> But often I mean you look throughout history in the name of religion how how that's happened. Jon of Arc. I mean, you know, and the Crusades, it >> I'm not disagreeing with you. I I'm telling you, I know that horrific things have happened in the name of religion, absolutely, but it doesn't represent God. Some people are doing it in a way that is misrepresentative of God. For example, the slave Bible, we know that the people have enslaved um African-Americans. You know what? They took this Bible, they cut out per certain pieces that had freedom and liberation. and they took that out and they said this is the word of God and that's demonic because they manipulated the word of God for their own special purposes and that's not religion.
>> But then how do you explain the hypocrisy throughout the ages? I mean it's not just something >> it's not it's not and it's going to continue to happen until Jesus comes back.
>> Could you read the prompt again, please?
>> Religious trauma and hypocrisy does not prove that God does not exist.
>> Does not prove that God does not exist.
Why is it that you need God to exist so bad?
>> Yeah. So, that's not the prompt. So, let's stick with the prompt.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, we are here to prove that God does or does not exist, right? Or, you know, >> based on certain factors.
>> Mhm. So, >> so to answer your question, I do not need to know that God exists so bad. I see his evidence all around us. The Bible says in Romans 12, 1:20 that since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes have been clearly seen even by those who are made so that we are without excuse. So, I don't just go around being like, oh, there do you think that I did not enjoy my sin? Do you think that I did not enjoy having sex outside of marriage? Do you think that I did not enjoy drinking and smoking and partying in clubs every weekend? Did you think that I enjoyed giving that up? No. But I gave it up because this this path leads to life. So I'm not here saying, "Oh, God, I don't want to see you." It's I know that your way is best and I'm going to follow you.
>> So you need God to exist because you need a direction in your life.
>> I don't need God to exist. He exists because he's God.
>> Did you believe he existed when you were partying and smoking and >> Yes, I did.
>> But you still did it anyway.
>> Yes, I did. But you felt guilt.
>> No, I did not feel any guilt until I had an abortion.
>> And so you felt guilt when you had the abortion?
>> Yes, I did.
>> And because you were traumatized by what you've been taught?
>> No, I was not traumatized by what I was taught. I was traumatized because I killed my unborn baby and I had so much grief and shame by that. I wasn't traumatized by what I was taught because again, I wasn't following Christ. I was traumatized by the fact that I killed my unborn baby and I was distraught about that. And I needed forgiveness. And nothing could give me that forgiveness until I met Jesus.
>> Why couldn't you give yourself that forgiveness?
>> I tried, but I couldn't because there's a real enemy telling me that the only way that I can forgive myself is to kill myself.
>> But there's a better >> enemy. Satan. Savannah.
>> I just wanted >> Hi. Hi again.
>> Hey.
>> Uh, so I I just want to be clear. I am not here to prove if God exists or doesn't exist. You're not changing your mind. I'm not changing my mind. That's not I what I am interested in though is again the gray area where we can have some dialogue because I've been in your seat before and it's a powerful seat to be in and it's it's moving and Christianity contributed a lot of positivity to my life. My best friends are Christians are pastors. Um so I commend and I respect and I want to hold this with some some reverence here when it comes to hypocrisy in the church.
I agree that hypocrisy in the church doesn't prove that God doesn't exist and we are actually in complete alignment on that. I don't think that that's enough proof that well God must not be real because Christians are can be just as bad. What I what I have trouble with and I even had trouble with this when I was a Christian kind of the rub here is you see in the church so much of this you know sexual abuse manipulation we don't we all know you know >> and we see that in the corporate world we see it just as much in the corporate world >> the problem for for me is and again was a problem when I was a Christian too and I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are on this the problem is in the corporate world there's protocol for how to address that and it's punished.
There are consequences.
>> Um, and the corporate world is held to what we call human resources, you know, HR. And there's there's laws >> in the church. I feel like we're missing that. And I say we because I used to be a part of it and I consider myself a part of that community in a sense because of so many of my my close friends or participants in it. But I feel like the church is no better or worse than the corporate world when it comes to moral behavior. But it should be because it has that book >> and it has a God that calls them to a a higher standard.
>> And I feel like the church falls short of that a lot of times and then doesn't have a system to correct it. And that leads to an inevitable fleeing from the church, especially women. You know, the Pew Research just came out. Gallup just came out with that research saying women are leaving the church at a faster rate than men.
>> And I wasn't surprised by it. Now, I didn't leave the church because of that of people treating me poorly. Now, they didn't help the situation, but I will say I left because I stopped believing in God. It was a switch. Can't turn it back on again. It is what it is. But I I'm curious what your thoughts are on that and how you reconcile the fact that the church behaves just as bad as the secular world. Yeah.
>> And doesn't have a protocol for >> its behavior. And do you do you kind of understand that that dissonance that maybe people outside the church >> totally? Yeah. Especially like for instance the Catholic Church with like the priests and the boys. Horrific, >> right?
>> And then we see the pope just sweeping under the rug. Demonic. Like that's that's wicked. And I condemn that. And ultimately there's perversion in the church and there are some people who will cover for certain people and I condemn that. But ultimately what I do know is the Lord knows how to raise up churches and he knows how to destroy them as well. So yeah, there is a lot of corrupt and perverted churches that are still operating. But ultimately I do believe that the Lord will have the final judgment and get those churches out of here.
>> Okay, that's a great point. Okay, now this brings me down a rabbit hole >> but I swear this is a I'll make this tight.
>> Okay, >> so we're seeing and we talked a little But I won't name names of churches, but you know which church I used to work at.
And we're seeing some downfalls. And we're seeing this kind of ripple effect of >> mega churches crumbling. This kind of trend of like the facade of some of them, >> some of them, >> not all.
>> We're seeing a lot of Do you think maybe that that is God using his, her, their power to break down that what you would call demonic behavior and saying, "Hey, you're not getting that that big. I'm breaking you down."
>> Right. Exactly. So I think for the sake of it, Hill Song Church >> is had been corrupted or whatever and there has been a massive exposure about that. I do believe that is God's judgment.
>> So like I'm sure the corruption happened for years and years and years and no one said anything but ultimately God stepped in and exposed it >> and he and he your God she they is on a different timeline in terms of you know we might say why didn't you you know call that church to account sooner.
>> Yeah of course >> but God is on a different timeline for you.
>> He gives people time to repent.
>> Got it.
>> Yeah. One of the things about hypocrisy and religion that's always baffled me is um when you look at the United States, which is basically a Christian country um at least in name, >> there we've got shootings and murders. I mean, the state of the United States is is awful as far as crime and what you would call sin. And you look at some of the the non non-theistic countries like uh Scandinavia, most of the countries are not religious and they're calm and peaceful and there's no murder rate and there are no school shootings and there are no, you know, um ascriptions to sin and and brutality. Why is it that a non-religious country is so peaceful and crimefree?
when just the opposite is true for a Christian country.
>> Yeah. I think your statistics are off though because you're looking No, show me. Show me. Show me any country that's crime free. I'll wait.
>> Oh, I'm not saying crime free.
>> You said it though.
>> Very very >> You said crime free.
>> Very little crime.
>> Okay. So, let's say little crime. Okay.
There may be less crime, but there's still sin according to the eyes of God.
There's still there's still fornication, which is wicked in the eyes of God.
There's still lying, there's still cheating, there's still people stealing.
So although we don't see like mass shootings, which is completely evil and weird, um there's still sin that's happening. There's still polytheistic uh gods that they're worshiping. So I'm saying like I'm I'm saying there's different sin in different countries based on where people are at, but it doesn't there's still sin anyway anywhere that you >> and you would say their punishment will be later on. Is that kind of >> you don't know their crimes? Yeah. You don't know if you ascribe fornication as a sin.
>> Yeah. Like you said like the United States has really aggressive crimes like um shootings. What we see in the spiritual the realm spiritual realm is like principalities and powers ruling over certain areas. So within the US you may have like school shootings but within Bali you may have polytheistic worship. Within certain other countries um Haiti you may see voodoo and witchcraft. So there's massive principalities over every country. Um it's just different areas where sin abounds in different regions and locations.
>> I have another question for you that's a little different from over there. So um >> two minutes by the way.
>> Okay. Really quickly. A lot of the worst people that I know um identify as Christians and a lot of the best people that I know identify as atheists. And that's not even regarding like you know their religion obviously. It's just by interacting, if God is this awesome person and it really is just the people, why are is the people that he's like speaking to and choosing so bad and why are they able to defame his name in such a horrible way, you know, because it's like if he's this amazing person, why doesn't he choose amazing equally amazing people to represent him? Why is he only represented majority of the time by negativity? Cuz like I've met maybe five Christians in my whole life that I'm like, you know what? Yeah. Like I can see like if God like God is in you.
>> Yeah, I got you. So yeah, Jesus says you shall know them by your fruit by their fruits. So you can know a true Christian based on their love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and self-control. So just because someone says they're Christian doesn't actually make them Christian. I think I mentioned before it's about a heart change. So even within the Bible, Jesus was constantly calling out these religious hypocrites and these Pharisees. He's overturning the tables in the temple because they're corrupting his church.
He's calling these Sadducees hypocrites.
Um telling people they confess the Lord with their mouth, but their hearts are far from him. So I totally get it. Like you have those Christians in the church, too.
>> Yeah. Um cuz like a lot of the people that I do see that are maybe I in my opinion unkind.
>> Yeah. They do claim to have God in their heart aggressively. Like they'll say things like, "Oh, I'll just let God handle it." And then they still suck, you know?
>> So, I'm just like >> I don't get how he can be like like and they they so adamantly believe that he's in them. Yes. Like it's >> I totally hear. And here's here's the here's a scripture that I will give you.
Um Jesus he tells all Christians, he says, "Not everyone who says to me,"Lord, Lord," will inherit the kingdom of God, but only those who do the will of my father. So, there are some people who say they're Christians that are not going to inherit the kingdom of God because their hearts are wicked and they're evil and cruel. So, I just want to let you know you're that is valid. And there are some people that profess Christ with their lips, but their hearts are far from them. Far from him. So, I'm really sorry that you experienced that.
>> Okay.
Can we fly off?
>> All right. Ahana, that's been such a wonderful conversation so far. It's been really eye opening. I think the ladies have learned a lot and I think you've probably learned a lot as well.
>> Is there anyone here that you've spoken to that you think you may want to have a deeper conversation with?
>> Yes. And why are you choosing this person? I'm choosing this person cuz she's the first one that I met and I just she was really sweet and what intrigued me is that she said she used to be pastor. So, I'm just just wanted to learn more about her heart and see, you know, her her opinions and thoughts.
>> Okay. And who is it?
>> Savannah.
>> Savannah.
>> Savannah, come down.
>> So many literally >> me again. We have to stop meeting like this.
>> I know.
>> Hi, me again, Savannah. Okay, my prompt is and again this is a question that I had when I was a Christian as well. So I'm selfishly using this retroactively for Christian me and other Christians watching.
>> Okay, >> is how do you reconcile or account for the devil and human sin?
And an example being again someone a Christian saying that they did something evil. There was a pastor that came out and was assaulting children and he said Satan came over me. And that obviously takes away the accountability of him, you know. So, how do you reconcile or make space for the devil and also our free will and sin, which I recognize are two ideas that Christians have to kind of hold together. How do those interact together without taking accountability off of the human? Does that make sense?
>> Yeah, that's a really, really good question. Um, I would say that ultimately temptation comes from the enemy. So, I feel like any type of sin in general, it does stem from the enemy.
But even though that's the case, we can't just pass it off on the enemy and be like, "Oh, Satan made me do this."
Like, no. Like I told you before, like I've fornicated before. And I'm not saying, "Oh, Satan made me do it." No, I wanted to do it. Although I'm sure Satan tempted me to do it. Um, I take responsibility for my actions. So ultimately I do believe that the enemy has a a large role and and people sinning because he tempts them to do that but people have no right to say it and make me do it. No, you have self-control. Um and you take responsibility for what you did. And so like the the accountability is yeah >> the giving in I guess that comes into the the giving into temptation which makes sense to me actually if I'm if I was a Christian that would actually make sense to me of >> the devil might be tempting me to do something evil to steal something >> and then I it's on me as the human to say am I going to engage in that temptation or get behind me Satan and not engage in it and that's kind of where the accountability comes in.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. And then on that, can we talk a little bit about the idea of sin because this is one of the I'm kind of getting two for one with my prompts here. Um, this the concept of sin has always been hard for me, >> even as a Christian. And I remember if he's watching this, I had a boss, a pastor when I was a pastor >> and I had a boss and I walked into his office and I said, "I don't think sin is real." And he goes, "Shut the door." I said, "Go in." I was explaining it and we talked about it.
Why do we need the concept of sin? Not why do we need the concept of right and wrong, but why do we need to pay for our actions of doing wrong in the afterlife?
That is a hard concept for me in that if I were again to steal something and then go to hell >> for that or for not believing in in let's go even deeper. I don't believe in Jesus and so I go to hell. Mhm.
>> Why?
>> Yeah.
>> A small question just, >> you know what I mean? Why do we need that concept at all? And could >> my ultimate question, could you have the concept of God without the concept of sin?
>> Yeah.
>> I'm sorry. That's a very loaded question.
>> Let me see if we can break it down.
Okay. So, sorry.
>> It's okay. You said, "Why do we need to pay for our sins?"
>> Yes. Why did we Why did we need that?
Why Jesus to die?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, the Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." So when sin occurs, death needs to happen. That's just God's God math. So like even in the Old Testament, they had to consistently offer up these animal sacrifices, >> right?
>> Imagine if we still had to do that today. How exhausting, you know?
>> So that's why G God sent Jesus as that perfect sacrifice. He he calls us the lamb of God because he's without spot.
He's he's without blemish. And he shed his blood on the cross so that our sins can be atoned for so we don't have to keep offering up these sacrifices. Yeah.
>> Okay. This has me down a different question. Okay.
>> Isn't this fun? Um so do you think because yeah in antiquity when someone messed up someone had to die or an animal had to die and we see that across Mesopotamian um Egyptian cosmology you know that's that's in almost every culture you saw that that idea and the the when you break the skin the blood there's that renewing the the atonement and Jesus died. Do you think maybe Jesus was crucified and died in that time period because that was how atonement was dealt with in antiquity? And if Jesus were to come now, he would he wouldn't have to die >> because we don't use death as a means of atonement anymore. Would he use a different mode? And that's not to negate the power of Jesus. Let me just say he could be just as powerful, could still be the son of God. I'm just curious if if the crucifixion was used in antiquity because that's how they dealt with it.
That that's how they dealt with sin.
>> Okay.
>> But in in 2026, we deal with sin or wrongdoing with, you know, a judicial process. Do you think if Jesus were to come today, instead of >> 2026 years ago, >> it would look differently and that we wouldn't need a crucifixion, we'd do a different kind of sacrifice?
>> Yeah. So, I would say no. Because of the Old Testament prophecies, we have about like 300 Old Testament prophecies that prophesied his crucifixion. So like for example Isaiah 53 and5 he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for iniquities. Um Psalm 22 where it talks about his piercings and all of that. So like the crucifixion was prophesied thousands of years before him. So I do believe that that had to come to pass >> and that his death again we talked about this in our earlier discussion of of Jesus came to fulfill the law. And so for you, and other Christians might I guess believe differently, but for you specifically that that crucifixion on a cross because it was referenced in Isaiah and other prophetic literature, >> it h that was the way that thy will be done. That was kind of the complet Yeah.
There was no other altering of that plan. Okay.
>> Right. Yeah.
>> So, and I'm sorry we are not sticking to the same >> It's fine. Just fire.
>> Oh, shoot. Okay. Oh, I have so many questions. Um Okay. So then my other question I want to talk about is along um a completely different line and I know the producers are like pick one lane the old the the CS Lewis mere Christianity. Have you I'm sure >> I haven't but I've been told I need to read it.
>> You have to you have to he CS such a beautiful writer wonderful Christian and um he has this idea. He says that the fact that we have a universal sense of right and wrong is a sign that there is a God.
>> Yeah.
Where do you see that playing in terms of the crucifixion? And if we knew a sense of right and wrong already, if that was innate in us already, why did we need the crucifixion?
>> Yeah. Why do we need the Well, we we needed the shedding of his blood to atone for our sins.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> The shedding of the blood. So then, let me rephrase it. If we had this innate sense of right and wrong, to you, is that a is that a proof that God exists?
That we have an innate sense of right and wrong?
>> Yeah. The law of immorality is written on our hearts. Yeah.
>> The Romans 2:14. Is that right?
>> I don't know.
>> I think it's Romans 2:14. The proof that humans, even those that don't know the law, abide it by it is proof that it's written on their hearts, >> which I I I understand and I disagree with. I don't think that we have a a true sense of universal morality. And we disagree on that, and that's fine. Um, but in that Jesus dying for our sins, I guess it goes back to my original question of if death was the sign of atonement.
Could God have perhaps changed that?
>> Well, it goes back to we would need a sacrifice that that >> could he have changed it? Could he have said we didn't need a sacrifice? I'm going to I'm going to push on that just a little bit. He's God.
>> Yeah. Well, I would say no because God is a holy God and in order to be near to him, >> we need a sacrifice to appear righteous in his sight.
>> Why? That's the part I can't even >> Okay, maybe we both are like, >> well, ultimately I the answer I have is he's a holy God.
>> Okay, >> and that's just a standard.
>> I think that that is fascinating and I just want to commend you and other Christians watching this. I think that there is hope. I have hope. I study religion and violence in America and it sounds like we are in line on the trends we're seeing >> and I'm hoping that our conversation and the conversations here today will be a balm to the divisiveness that we're seeing with Christians and non-Christians. I think we're doing a good thing and I'm so grateful for you.
>> Thankful for you too. Thank you.
>> We did it. Yay.
>> So Johanna, that was a really beautiful conversation. And I felt like everyone was really open and honest and you had a really a really good time with them, I'm sure. Tell me a little bit about your experience.
>> Um, ultimately I just wanted Christ to be glorified. I know that there were some things that came offensive and was not my intention, but I just know like sometimes the truth cuts deep. Um, but I just I just wanted the gospel message to be spread and for the word of God to be glorified. So, I think I did the best that I could and I I just pray that there's some fruit that comes out of it.
>> Yeah. Did anything surprised you during the conversation or anything that maybe appealed to you or things that you didn't know before listening gave you a different perspective on it?
I would have to go back because I know that everyone is so intelligent and awesome. So, I know everyone made some really great points and I I think questions and reasoning is welcomed even outside the Bible. So, I'm all for it and um I'll definitely replay it and dig deeper into some of the thoughts that the ladies presented or everyone presented.
>> So, you chose Savannah for your one-on-one conversation. That was really nice. Tell me a little bit about that experience. What was it like chatting with her?
>> Um it was great. I she was the first person that I met. Um and I just loved her spirit and I thought um it was really interesting that she used to be a pastor and she turned atheist. I just wanted to get to know her more and we are we're going to connect after. So um yeah, I just thought it was a great conversation.
>> That's wonderful. Yeah, that was really interesting. Do you have any final thoughts? Anything that you want to leave us with?
Um, I would just say for those who don't believe, um, Jes Jesus says that we'll find him when we search for him with all our heart. So, um, if we truly want to know who he is, we just have to ask and he'll reveal himself to us.
>> Thank you so much. And thank you ladies for being here and just spending time and sharing your your world with us.
Thank you at home for watching. Let us know in the comments what your thoughts are on this episode. anything that you would like to share with us and how you think the ladies did. Until next time, bye-bye.
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