How to Master Executive Transitions with Navid Nazemian

[00:00:02]Hey everybody and welcome to TNM Coaching Unplugged. I'm so grateful and happy to be with you once again. I'm grateful that you're sharing our podcast, that you're benefiting in your life, in your business. We're very grateful for our audience growing. Keep on sharing, keep on loving this podcast.

[00:00:15]And once again, welcome to this amazing conversations. Today conversation is going to be a special one. We're going to talk about ambitious leaders, executives, and organizations that they really need to hear what we have to say in this podcast because we're stepping into this bigger role that is already and sometimes neglected publicly and privately. This is one of the most lonely, pressured, and misunderstood experiences in business. The truth is that many highly capable leaders that are listening to this conversation sometimes walk their path really long and alone and lonely. And sometimes when they move from one position to another position usually their need to manage complex situation political landscape of the organization their own emotions and sometimes those transitions can be unforgiving. So if you are a leader executive who is moving to the bigger role to the bigger position and if you really want to understand this executive transitions our guest today is going to help you out. He's going to talk about all of this. My guest today, Navidid Nazim. Uh he will be exploring how the master uh executive transitions really work. He has had a tremendous experience um building up coaching uh supporting leaders uh really helping them out with this transition and he wrote this wonderful book that we that he's published and everybody likes and it's becoming bestseller which is mastering executive transition.

[00:01:45]In today's podcast we're going to look into that. We're going to open to many many interesting conversations and questions and explore this landscape for everybody to enjoy. So uh welcome uh Navidid very lovely to have you on this podcast today.

[00:01:57]>> Thank you so much Zuran. This has to be one of the kindest introductions I've ever had. So I just want to thank you for that.

[00:02:03]>> Oh you're welcome. You're welcome. So we always start with this kind of hero's journey a little bit and my first question to you is how did you get in this field in this industry and why this uh transition especially coaching and consulting and mentoring executives is important to you?

[00:02:20]>> Sure. So I um spent 20 years working in the human resources function, a function that is very dear to my heart and something that I really uh was uh aspiring to move into. And on the back end of six years working in sales roles and once I got my first opportunity, it was always a bit of an intriguing observation for me, Zoran, which was, you know, you hire the very best of the best often times. uh you spend a lot of time and energy in making sure that you do the perfect selection for the position for the organization and despite that uh there are a number of those executives that don't make it successfully on the back end of being hired and so it was always uh an intriguing observation for me and I you know I worked for five of the world's most admired companies on this planet I worked for Adidas I worked for GE at the time in the year 2005 GE was the most admired company on the planet Um, I work for B, I work for Rush, I work for Vodafone. And despite that, I find that this particular process is never really as strong as it could be and never as effective as it needs to be. And that led me to the idea of exploring the market, writing uh, reading more about it myself only to realize that nobody else for whatever reason had been really thinking about this topic deeply. And that led me to start to think about I might as well write the first book on this topic. And that's what I went on to do. And seven years later, the book launched. This is four years ago now. And it became uh an an a totally unexpected success, I must say, >> right? Because you probably tap into the pain point that everybody was struggling, but as I said, people neglecting. So why do you feel the brilliant leaders are struggling uh during this executive transition? what creates that you know uh pain point for them so to say.

[00:04:18]>> Yes. So in my book I speak about exponentially challenged executives finding themselves in a poly crisis. I mean today is the 23rd of April 2026 and I am based in Dubai and this region has been dragged into a conflict uh without doing anything really to be involved and that's just one example of how you may be touched by something as an executive and as an organization that you really didn't even have on your radar but there are many more reasons why this is such a you know delicate undertaking. Let's say if I look at the CEO tenure um it's been trending downwards for as long as you know this has been tracked and just in the last uh 7 years it has come down to 5.9 years on average meaning uh one in seven CEOs do not get to celebrate the third year in the same position. If I look at organization complexity and this was done by uh two French professors who looked at okay if you look at an organization today and look at a similar or same organization 15 years ago is it more or less complex to lead in this new environment and guess what the complexity has increased by a factor of 35. So, it's 35 times more complex today than it was 15 years ago to to lead in a matrix type organization. And last but not least, um I mean this is an entire chapter in my book and and I break down the top 10 reasons for executive transition failure. I also would like to point out something that is rarely spoken about which is it's the functional or the technical skills Zoran that gets you hired at the seuite level.

[00:06:08]>> Mhm. And it's the lack of the so-called soft skills that gets you fired at the same level. Meaning it's typically to do with either people, politics or um culture that that can be a hindrance to your success once you have been appointed.

[00:06:24]>> So you said technical skills are there a lot of ex CEOs, executives, they will have what it takes to run the business, right? So they are probably hired for that. But the soft skills are lacking and soft skills as you mentioned politics it's one how do you manage political landscape so let's open that one first so what is the soft skill of being able to manage that yes so I can site an actual example from my own uh time when I uh moved that was not the first time but the second time I moved into a global head office of an organization and um I remember those days very vividly because um this was an organization that was very clear on remmit, mandate, role clarity, all those things, right? And I was in a global position meant that uh we had what what we called at the time in that company the delegation of authority limits. And so that table, I was a vice director.

[00:07:21]That was my job title. At my level, I could essentially sign off um anything up to the threshold of 150,000 Swiss Franks. So that was kind of my delegation of authority level. I do remember I I I you know I made a an expense for something like 15k for a small HR project I was leading and I I started to get those phone calls from finance from HR from all sorts of different stakeholders to ask whether I had double or triple checked this spend with so and so and this one and that one and I you know in my German way I said no um I haven't because why would I mean that's what the delegation authority table is there for right I mean it's very easy um I have you know spent 10% of what I'm supposed to spend and so as as far as I'm concerned I'm not seeking any um uh consultation before doing that also next time.

[00:08:13]>> Mhm.

[00:08:14]That same day I had a an unplanned meeting with my line manager who sat me down and started to explain to me that of course the delegation of authority is there for you know a good reason. But despite that because this is the head office and every one of the HRDs is is is is super kind of x-rayed against one another and so on. If I wanted to do that next time, I should probably spend more time liazing with the relevant stakeholders just to make sure that they are comfortable. And so it's a super simple example, Zoran, but can you imagine the magnitude of if I were to ignore that or if nobody would point me to that and this goes down as a bit of a yellow card in the background and then there's another one, another one, eventually you you're being shown the red card. So things may look perfectly defined and and and well articulated but as soon as you move into the regional or global head office things will need to be done differently and sometimes it's the heightened levels of politics that those executives are underestimating before they move into those positions.

[00:09:20]>> Right. Exactly. Because they take things for granted like this is a good example.

[00:09:24]You took something for granted. you understood how the system actually works but the the landscape of navigating the political global headquarters is completely different. So that's something that executives need to learn and need to be accustomed to and need to really assess in that position. Right.

[00:09:42]>> Absolutely.

[00:09:43]>> And you mentioned also culture you know how would the executives that step into the position and I've coached CEOs who come in and with a fullon uh willingness to transform to change they also given mandate to do something different to distract maybe to do it better and then there is a cultural residue of what are inheriting. So what do you feel people need to be mindful of when it comes to facing the culture as it is and then how they can evolve the culture to support them to execute in the best possible way.

[00:10:15]>> Yes. So um I would like to site one of the examples I'm using in my book and by the way Zoran um my book has 156 citations. So the appendix is 22 pages long. So I literally spent 5 years researching this topic in and out. I I claim that there isn't a single white paper or research paper up until the year 2020 when when I finished my work and went to publish it uh that I have not read on the topic and at that time there was no chat GPT there was no large language model available so it was really sitting down googling and and researching and I would like to use the example of Dr. Leia, this is a gentleman that was hired into Ullet package as the new uh group CEO and um I I I also I'm I'm happy to declare that I don't know this individual personally and I have never spoken to him.

[00:11:06]>> What I learned about him is all through the media and what's publicized about him. Mhm.

[00:11:11]>> So he was brought to Ullet Packard with a big mandate and the big mandate that the board of directors at that time asked him to deliver on was to really take HB from this almost you know sleeping beauty type state that it was in. I mean Ullet Packard at that time was uh the world leader in the personal computer segment. It was a world leader in laptops. it was uh the world leader in printers and the printing business and and and not just for the consumers but also for professional purposes. it had started to um you know branch out into servers and the server business was taking off and so it really was you know quite successful if you just look at the numbers and despite that I think the board of directors at the time felt that if they were to look at Google, Apple and some of the more aggressive kind of tech players >> it's only a matter of time until they lose out to those more uh kind of nimble agile aggressive type uh hardcore tech tech companies. So that was his mandate to to to bring him in and and you know he had prior experience with SAP to bring him to really turn the the company you know attitude and culture around and that's what he really went after. So he um and if people wanted to that there are these town halls sometimes still to be found on YouTube and other media where he was uh speaking from a big podium to two 3,000 employees at one uh of the sites and he was citing all the poor things that HP currently does and how they needed to shift the culture towards something more like SAP which was his beloved uh prior company.

[00:12:51]>> Mhm. And I don't think it takes a genius or an HR expert to to to say that it's probably not a good angle to come in, right? I mean despite the fact that that is your mandate >> because if you start to badmouth the current organization's culture and its practices even though you know that there is and and probably everyone knows that there is improvement potential there. the way you do that and if you were to hold in high regard your previous company's culture and what a nimble and agile and incredibly competitive um culture that was and that everybody needs to stop doing this this you know shitty work and really look up to that other you know golden halo type um example it's probably not going to get the best out of people there isn't going to going to be a lot of engagement around that sort of a vision and um in a matter of 10 months he did a couple of these town halls and so He was actually fired by the same board of directors and the chair that had appointed him because they saw that the the descent and the the the engagement levels in the company were going completely the other direction and that was actually not good for the business.

[00:13:58]Now imagine if I wanted to use the same example with this individual or someone in the same situation.

[00:14:06]If he did only one thing which is he would go and have these town hall meetings all around the world. Mhm.

[00:14:13]>> He would actually say a few things, not just about his PhD degree and his MBA and this and that and what a fantastic career he's had, but to get a little more personal, maybe showing a photo of his family and speaking to them as a human being.

[00:14:30]>> Mhm.

[00:14:30]>> And then asking them three questions and then use a mentee or some other tool to capture the input. So the first question is what about our existing culture is great and incredible and has served us well in the past and will continue to serve us well in the future. Free text just enter whatever you have in terms of input. Second question, what is the one cultural trait we must stop demonstrating in the future? Because it although it may or may not have served us well in the past, it certainly will not serve us well in the future. M >> and then the third question is what one new cultural trait or habit do we need to start demonstrate that we haven't even demonstrated so far okay >> so he does these three questions and he does it with all the big you know tunnels and then then there's the HR survey going out and people at the time over 200,000 people are going to participate and then he comes back and says okay I've heard what you guys have shared with me let's say 3 to 6 months into his role >> this is these are the the three core things obviously aggregated as an input that we must continue to do because they will continue to serve us well.

[00:15:43]>> These are the two or three things we must stop demonstrating because they will certainly not serve us well in the future. This is what you have shared with me by the way and these are the two or three things we must start to demonstrate because we believe that they are going to help us to make the shift.

[00:15:58]What would be the level of buying behind that approach compared to how he actually did it which is talking down to them being super aggressive uh badmouthing the existing culture and really praising in the highest terms what what this other organization of him that he used to work for has demonstrated you see the difference and this is why when I created the so-called double diamond framework of executive transitions which is a sevenphase framework I gave particular attention to what I call the five C's.

[00:16:30]>> So the first one is context. Arguably this is the most important CFO because it looks at the circumstance of the organization, the competition landscape, the governmental landscape, the societal landscape and how this company is touching acro across those uh segments.

[00:16:47]The second C stands for culture. What is this organization famous for? What is this company known for in good or bad ways? Right? And what about the leadership in this organization? What about the values and and and how important are they? Are they just a a name or a tag on a poster in a in a in a in a boardroom or are they really actually lived up to and so on? The third C looks at commitment. What is the organization committed to achieve for its customers, for its clients and for society at large? The fourth one looks at circles. Um what are the circles of influence, power and informal decision making? This is one of the big mistakes I see sometimes with coaching clients is that they just look at the org chart and then map the key stakeholders and of course they go by job title because that's usually you know a sign that someone is influential but as it just happened there are also people who can be highly influential who may not have the senior the most senior job title and so you also need to map them in your stakeholder map and then the fifth and last C is confidence. What are the levels of employee engagement in this organization? What is the leadership DNA here? What is considered a great leader and who is considered a poor leader and why is that? And so by doing this very little exercise right at the outset with an incoming executive, what you are trying to do is to reduce the risk of them walking on these landmines that are lying everywhere and sometimes completely invisible to the incoming executive.

[00:18:19]>> Exactly. And I love that you put it in such a structured way uh and so that they can see it and they become aware of it because I can see that this in executive transition people are dealing with unknown a lot and there's a lot of assumptions there is misinformation there is of course projection of the power of authority but when we go through this process of this 5C especially when it comes to the one that I love which is the confidence and I think this is an important uh topic to unpack as well which is the psychological safety and emotal safety of executive in the transition. So when they understand the leadership as well and what organization requires from the leaders then it's really easy for them to also adapt to the culture with the full confidence. So what do you see executives needs in first 18 months to fully display that level of confidence in addition to going to 5C which I think it's an amazing protocol that they can use. Anything else that will come to them that will strengthen their ability to manage this transition.

[00:19:20]>> Yes. So I love the notion that you brought into the question Zoran which is 18 months. Right. Again, there is this big myth out there and it's probably down to the success of this other very famous book which is called the first 90 days where um again it's beyond miso run why any executive must be sitting on their hands waiting patiently until day one then start to run like crazy and then drop the ball again on the 90th day in the in a in a new position. So, so my idea of transitioning at the top of the house is more a 12 to 18 months journey which is also why if you look at the double diamond framework it consists of seven unique phases and only one this is phase two actually looks at the first 90 days. So I I do not want to belittle the idea that it's uh there's anything wrong with being structured in your first day and up until the day 90 but if you think of it as 17th of the success formula it certainly is not going to cut it for you not at the very top in an organization the first 90 is a fantastic framework for anyone individual contributor maybe even a first-time manager but that's about it it won't really do it if you were to pay attention to that and so coming back to your original question um around confidence and how can this be helped and improved. So firstly uh some other aspects of the dial diamond framework what I've done is I've broken down each of those seven phases >> um by providing a bit of an overview around and and again this is based on those 156 citations of research. What are typical activities that the executive should expect during phase one, during phase two, during phase three and this is really based on research as well as based on I interviewed 20 seuite executives just for the purpose of the book. So I enriched it with those insights that I gained from those executives who had transitioned multiple times previously.

[00:21:15]Then I go and say okay now that you know imagine if you were my coaching client you're the incoming CEO of Ullet Packet.

[00:21:23]Now that you know what are typical activities in this particular phase of yours, what are typical challenges and derailers that the research is also revealing and I will read them out to you and I will give you an idea around what is often cited during this particular phase. But more importantly, Zoran, I would then say now over to you.

[00:21:43]I want you to spend some time to reflect on what are the challenges and derailers that you can see coming your way because of the uniqueness of the Ullet Packard's culture and its history, its upbringing and and so on so forth and more importantly what are some of the early mitigation strategies you can think of to deal with those challenges and derailers at each of those seven phases.

[00:22:08]So already once we have done the 5C's you feel a little more confident and a little more assured around you you're avoiding the biggest landmines then when we go into phase 1 2 3 and so on at each particular phase you have the the research done for you and you can now tailor make it into your unique circumstance and really taking something that is more broadly research into your own little kind of you know mini research around this microcosmos of fuels that you're in charge. And then there are a few other aspects to the double diamond as well. So um the reason I selected the image of two diamonds um from the side facing one another is that you have this uh kind of a shape and this shape on one side I speak about diverging and on the other side I speak about converging. Diverging means Zoran that especially if you're new in a role let's say typically between phase one and phase four which roughly makes up your first 120 days in a in a in a position and and sometime before you actually start in a role. Divergence means you are collecting dots, you are collecting pieces of information, you are reading through papers, going through analyst uh conversations, reading through board material, looking at the company's strategy, speaking to key players to understand this all. And then convergence means at some point typically around phase four, phase five, you need to stop collecting the dots and start to connect them with one another.

[00:23:41]Meaning at phase four, five, you are expected to come up with what you believe is your two to three big hairy audacious goals. What are you going to align the organization behind and then get everyone aligned behind this and and kind of starting to move. So that's the other aspect of the double diamond. And then there is two more things I want to share about the framework. One is at the top I'm using someone else's framework.

[00:24:11]So at the top of the double double diamond says optimizing the energy levels of the leader. Um I can't tell you Zoran how many times I have come across this myself as an HRD um working with top executives as and when the big promotion has taken place they are sitting in the beautiful corner office and burning the midnight oil cutting down on their sleep and really giving more and more time to the role because it's very demanding it's typically the first time they are in that sort of a position there is a gazillion different papers to read and digest and so on and what they don't realize is that if you are and I've had executives who are down to no more than 3 hours of sleep for a continued period of time. What you're actually doing is working against you without you realizing it. You are being short-tempered. Your concentration is going down and many other issues are coming your way that you don't you can't quite foresee right now. So the optimizing energy uh levels of the leader is something I took from uh the work of a gentleman called Tony Schwarz.

[00:25:12]Anton Tony Schwarz um published this uh article on how business review I'm not sure what year it was it was probably 2016 uh or 2006 I don't know exactly in that year was the the most downloaded uh article on Howard Business Review and his uh research and this paper that he published said uh why you need to uh manage your energy not your time and that was really a fundamental shift around how you can think about energy because one thing is for sure and that's what the research suggests um executive transitions are more stressful than going through a divorce or a significant health challenge. So they are more energy draining they're more stressful than arguably what can be super energy draining and and and and stressful at in a normal time >> and for that reason you also need to pay attention to as to how you can optimize your four quadrants that ultimately nourish your energy levels. So that's one aspect and then the last one and then I will stop talking >> is the fact that >> we're learning a lot. Thank you so much for sharing. It's amazing.

[00:26:18]>> Great.

[00:26:19]>> Is the fact that the first and the seventh phase of the double diamond framework are the ones that are most often skipped. The first phase is I call it the discover phase.

[00:26:30]>> This is your minus 90 to day zero.

[00:26:33]>> Right? And this is the good work of another gentleman. His name is Michael Burroughs and he wrote this amazing book super short. it it's it's almost the size of a of a smartphone 60 pages. He wrote this great book which has the title before on boarding critical success strategies to embed before you start in a new executive position. And he really makes the case that why would you have to wait until day one until you're technically in a role so you can start to you know on board and transition into this position. There are many things you can start to do as soon as the announcement has been made. As soon as people in the company know that you're the incoming CXO, as soon as you have already had a conversation with your future line manager, as soon as you're able to reach out and connect with your leadership team that you will be inheriting. So there are many things you can do without being in a role. And the seventh phase, I have to finish this with a D again. So this phase is called develop. So I don't know about you Zoran but I will never remember more than three things at the same time which is why I named what each of the seven phases with the first letter um making up the word diamond and that's how I remember my own seven phases. Of course.

[00:27:44]Of course. Absolutely.

[00:27:46]>> So the last phase is called develop. And that phase is all about sitting down with your coach. If if nothing else, that one hour session is our moment with the executive to sit down and reflect on what's the journey been like the last 12 to 18 months. What were some bets that they made and which one of those turned out to be true and which one was a complete, you know, mistake or disaster?

[00:28:13]What surprises did they face along the way? And most importantly, if they have made any mistakes or anything that turned out differently than they had hoped it would be, what are the learnings as a result of those? And that one session sometimes over two sessions or an extensive session really helps to embed the learning in the executive leader mind and in the system. And this is when I call um embodied um knowledge.

[00:28:40]So that when and as and when they are going through a future transition at any point in the future, they have an embodied experience of what it means to go through a transition previously. And that already coming back to your very first question during our call enhances their confidence levels and really boosts them up with what they know to be true and and the fact that 50 or 60% of whatever they come to achieve is probably going to turn out differently than they had uh for foreseen it right at the outset.

[00:29:13]>> Beautiful. I've learned so much.

[00:29:17]That was such a wonderful sharing. Thank you for that. So as we're running out of time, I mean you know we can record for for 10 hours and our format as I mentioned it's always 40 minutes. That's what people appreciate. We're coming towards the end of the call today. So can you give me an example that really stood up for you when the executive in this situation came to be coached by you and they were in this transition and they were lucky enough to understand that in transition and also lucky enough to understand they need support because a lot of the executives don't understand even that they require handholding and deeper support because this is as you mentioned one of the most stressful times in their life. You know they really need to prove themselves. They need to shine. They need to be at best all the time. And as I said, I've seen this that a lot of executives get this done do this really lonely and they get really disheartened by the whole transition. So for the ones who are vulnerable enough to be courageous enough to say, I need support of a coach. Can you give me one example that you can remember that came to you and that you felt wow that was such a great coaching process or good support and I managed to really help him or her >> resolve this and then they were able to shine in this new role.

[00:30:39]>> Sure. So this was the case of a chief sales officer, someone who was incredibly good at selling >> um who had knocked all the KPIs out of the ballpark, right? I mean he was overachieving his previous um uh uh le set KPIs any given year and he had faced this interesting situation in that he always thought of himself to be the biggest of the pack in his peer level and when the company changed his line manager his boss who was the president of the entire region they didn't even speak to him so he then reached out after he learned that there's a new incoming box and he wasn't even part of the process and so on so he was very disappointed did he spoke to his peer CHRO and she said to him that essentially with his kind of leadership I mean they appreciate his functional technical competence but his current level of leadership style he will never be considered for a bigger role and that was really the moment where he realized oh my goodness it's not just about delivering or overd delivering on the number there is a little more that is expected of me and so he and the CHRO had this discussion what can we do and so he decided that he wanted to work with someone like myself. So it was not a transition case, but it was a maximizing leadership impact kind of a case. And so we had this very first conversation with his line manager, CHRO, and him and myself in the room.

[00:32:03]And this was one of the toughest moments in his career is it's at least what he told me on the back end of that session.

[00:32:08]His line manager, you know, essentially said, "Look, this gentleman, let's call him John.

[00:32:14]>> John is full of himself. He thinks too high of himself. He thinks that he's one head and one leg above everyone else at at his peer level and he and you know he his boss used to serve in the French military. Um I have seen some really arrogant uh military commanders but he really has to be one of the highest in terms of arrogance that I have seen before.

[00:32:38]>> Mhm.

[00:32:40]>> Now this guy's in the room and the CHO looks a little helpless here. Anyway, so that was the end of the conversation and then we stayed put and those two individuals left the boardroom and he said, "This is really like I a I was not expecting that and b I'm really angry now and I'm thinking I need to call him up and tell him what I wanted. I always tell him >> uh and I said I don't think that's a good idea." So anyway that was the mandate >> and so we worked together and and I won't you know go into the detail but this is 10 sessions in so uh you know 8 9 months into our coaching engagement my phone rings uh at a late hour he was based in Dubai I was based in Dubai so it's like past 900 p.m. on my phone doing something thinking, "Oh my goodness, it's his number. So, it's probably some kind of an emergency."

[00:33:32]So, I pick up the phone and his voice is shivering. His his voice is like trembling and he's like, "Nave, I just wanted to let you know that I have received the the the positive news of a big promotion and I will be moving to the US." So it is possible um despite all odds and and we had a midway conversation with the line manager and CHRO again where he felt very bullish that he has overachieve all the behavioral stuff he wanted to demonstrate and they saw they acknowledge improvement but not enough again he was very angry that they they they don't want to acknowledge his his progress how come and so on but really once you meet them where they are at and and they are able to demonstrate the other side that we all have which is the more you know refined levels of leadership and the style of leadership we are asked to demonstrate more often that's when the you know switch will turn around and that's when even um the biggest promotions can uh come the way unexpectedly >> wonderful and I really want to empower leader leaders who are listening to this to really take this into consideration because I've seen this as well as you Navidid again and again and again when somebody hires a coach who is going to support them through the transition Even with the frameworks that you have highlighted so beautifully for us, they can become even more powerful and also people who are preparing for the roles who are technically brilliant overachiever KPIs uh strategies in place that sometimes this soft part it's really really important which is how we do things. It's equally important to what we do at the end of the day. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming to this podcast. It was joy and pleasure to meet you. Um, do you have any call for actions for for the audience? Anything that you feel besides reading your book, which I really feel that everybody should do who's listening to this? Anything that you would love to ask spontaneously for the audience to consider?

[00:35:29]>> Sure. I would like to recite uh an individual called Nasim Talib and he once said, it's a very famous quote, invest in preparedness, not in prediction. And so, um, my good mentor Dr. Marshall Goldsmith said it uh uh equally elegantly with his book, what got you here won't get you there. So my advice is to any executive that is going to uh be in a career transition to to really not assume that they have everything that they need in order to be successful but to seek professional and qualified support. So that will be my call of action.

[00:36:04]>> Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming to this podcast today. Everybody else, thank you so much for tuning in.

[00:36:09]It's lovely to have you all here. We are really grateful for our community. I hope this was a good one. You've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. I'm like, where is the book? I'm going to go immediately and start reading myself to upskill myself, my coaching skills.

[00:36:22]Thank you once again for tuning in and Navidid, thank you so much for joining in.

[00:36:26]>> Thank you, Zoran.