Cagla Tugaltay Cinayeti- Profesor Aklesh Lakhtakia ile CTF Teknolojisi

[00:00:00]the audience is just going to come in.

[00:00:02]Um, I'm just going to now I'm just going to do the intro in Turkish because I'm just going to tell people that this is this broadcast is going to be English if you don't mind Dr. Sure. Please go ahead.

[00:00:15]>> Okay. Thank you. Um, Professor for Mr. Lakia, thank you so much for accepting my offer and invitation to come over to my live broadcast to talk about the CTF technology. And then um we got just for the audience to know that um I connected with Mr. Latakia back in uh April. I believe that that was the 2nd of April and I briefly I briefly spoke about the the child case and then also just mentioned about the the article the CTF technology the column nurse thin film technology to understand if we can really just help this case be solved or just like you know help the the authorities to use this technology. Without further ado, I would like to actually just again welcome Mr. Lakia. Thank you so much.

[00:01:34]So, let's go ahead and just have your intro and then we can delve deep into this uh matter and topic.

[00:01:41]>> Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone for having me on your show. Uh well, my name you know Aklesia. I'm a professor of engineering science and mechanics at the Pennsylvania State University where I've been employed since 1983.

[00:01:59]Uh I obtained my bachelor's degree from IIT India BHU and then my master's in PhD in electrical engineering from the University of Utah. uh most of my work is on electromagnetic thin electromagnetic fields in thin films and while I was working on thin films, I was introduced to the idea of u u to to I was introduced to the idea of uh using uh thin films for uh detecting or for visualizing fingerprints at crime scenes collected at crime scenes. And uh so I started research in 2010 uh with a colleague named Bob Shaylor who was actually a forensic scientist. I am not a forensic scientist and my research has continued until last year.

[00:02:56]Uh after co we did have a small problem and I did not renew that research after that.

[00:03:03]>> Okay. All right. Yes.

[00:03:05]>> So yeah, basically [clears throat] for for the uh for the audience to better understand it the the reason why we connected and then I was actually just like you know very surprised because somebody that is actually in the articles even Wikipedia is yourself that your response actually just like know really just made me [clears throat] very excited and then I overjoyed the conversation that I I wasn't even able to even comprehend you know thoroughly about that the conversation that you and I had the you know the correspondence that we have on the the platform that you and you and I connected. So what I what I have actually just done per the information that you provided about the CTF and I was thinking that we could just tie this to the ongoing case which is three-year statute of limitation extension for this child type case that actually occurred in year 2000 in Istanul Turkey. And then the more I delve into the technique which is especially useful on non-porous and semi-porous surfaces and such as glass like the metals adhesive tapes correct me if I'm wrong like the the also the plastic packaging [clears throat] basically you also just like you know can recognize those from the CDs DVDs I would say like you know polymer bank notes even that was actually shocking for me that similar materials as Well, so then I I actually just studied more and better understood those like the CTF can actually just produce the high quality, the rich detail and then also the strong visual like the contrast on the surface that that the fingerprint was detected. Sometimes it can even as you mentioned in your article that you share with me, it can outperform those traditional metrics. So would you mind just telling more about this ETF and then what I actually just missed to complement what I actually just mentioned to you?

[00:05:03]>> Uh certainly certainly. Um well I also want to add here that this technology can work very nicely uh for partial bloody fingerprints.

[00:05:15]>> [clears throat] >> So often times part of a fingerprint that has been left behind at a crime scene is latent meaning you can't see it basically but part of it is bloody and therefore you can see some part of it some some things some details not all details because blood also obscures okay and in a traditional technology what you have to do is you have to separate the the bloody part from the non-bloody part and process test them differently if you want to see the details of the fingerprint. But with CTF technology, you can do them together. Uh one more thing that uh interesting about this technology is that uh uh when you when people load a gun with a bullet, okay, they on the bullet they leave behind their finger marks and when the bullet is fired, there is a lot of hot gas produced inside the barrel of the gun and that destroys the finger mark.

[00:06:17]Uh however there is a little bit of um of acid. The fingerprints contain a little bit of acid and as a result the fingerprint is slightly etched onto the bullet on the bullet and this technique at least in a few uh efforts we made was able to expose uh those those finger marks too. So that is kind of different from traditional techniques.

[00:06:46]So basically uh let me tell you what what how the thing operates. Okay, imagine that you have uh you have a flat surface on which there are trees growing. They are all tall fur trees.

[00:07:01]Okay, and let us say they were all planted at the same time. They have grown at the same rate. So their tops will be at the same height.

[00:07:10]>> Okay. [clears throat] And from if you look from the from the above the trees they will look as if they are flat because the the ground underneath is flat. But if the ground underneath has hills you know and it is a rolling ground then those the surface topography the ground topography will also be reflected in the treetops. Okay. Because all the trees are of the same height.

[00:07:38]Therefore, okay, the trees that are on a higher level ground will be tall will be higher than the trees that are on lower level ground. So, in other words, from the tops you can from the treetops, you can actually gather what the topography of the of the ground underneath it is.

[00:07:57]So, columner thin films work exactly in the same way. What we do is we grow a film which is made up of parallel columns and they are all growing up.

[00:08:09]Okay, these are nano columns. They are of diameter on the order of 50 60 70 nanome very very very thin very very small. Okay. Uh they are made of of building blocks that are between 1 and 3 nanometers in size. So really small you cannot see them with your eyes. Okay.

[00:08:31]All right. And they grow anywhere between 100 nanometers to about a thousand nanometers. Those results, those heights are optimal for forensic purposes. We can grow them much much higher if you want to. Okay. So what we do is we take a fingerprint that is on a substrate and we put it in a vacuum chamber. So in a vacuum chamber there is very low pressure, very low pressure.

[00:09:00]And we evaporate a material.

[00:09:03]This material the vapor itself has is like think of it like rain [clears throat] you know all all the all the droplets are moving in the same direction. So they condense on the on the fingerprint and they f form columns like those trees and then after a certain period of time we decide okay no more we will not deposit anymore and we stop the deposition process [snorts] and so this columner thin film is formed. Now the properties the optical properties of these column finan films are different from that of the fingerprint pillow.

[00:09:43]And if we have chosen the right kind of material and if we have chosen the right height of these columns then we will get an image that we can see very easily.

[00:09:55]That means the forensic examiner can examine and they can also put it under a microscope. Not a not a strong powered microscope. A simple >> basically the latent becomes visible, right?

[00:10:06]>> The latent becomes visible. Yeah. And they can they can they can see the ridge the ridge detail. So if you look at your fingerprints, you will find there are ridges on on fingerprints and >> because producing it is producing like you know better contrast than the the VMD. For example, the VMD the vacuum metal um deposition would not necessarily provide that kind of contrast on the surface.

[00:10:32]>> So, so vacuum metal deposition works nicely on polymer substrates.

[00:10:37]>> Okay.

[00:10:38]>> Okay. Uh it will not work on say metallic substrates. It will not work on glass. Okay. CDF technology works on glass. It will work on uh metals. It will also work on polymers on some polymers better than other polymers.

[00:10:53]Okay. But I have to say that uh much more research needs to be done because you have to for any polymer you need to find the right kind of material to deposit. Okay. And you know that that's a matter of research that takes time.

[00:11:09]Okay. So once the CTF is formed uh then then then it can be photographed it can be examined. And what's amazing about this technology is this is something you will not be able to see with your own eyes. If you look at the ridge at a ridge in on your fingerprint at any ridge on your fingerprint, you will find it to be kind of a continuous curve. But that is not all. This is a continuous curve in which there are pores like uh imagine uh a chain of mountains and some of those mountains are actually volcanoes with calderas. So you know there are there are depressions. So these are these are this is called a level three detail. Uh it's of course very difficult to see [snorts] and you can actually see that with CTF technology.

[00:12:02]uh I have a colleague uh Parthur Banerjee at the University of Dayton. So he and I pursued a project. Once I had deposited a CTF on a fingerprint, then he would actually use uh holography techniques and he would record the >> okay >> he he would record a three-dimensional image on on a on a computer and then this three-dimensional image can be viewed by a forensic examiner and they can view it from the top from the side you know this way so they can have a better understanding of that >> because that's kind of a hologram. It's just like a physical form. So you can actually just view view it from different angles.

[00:12:45]>> That is right. It's possible to do that.

[00:12:47]Yes. Uh one more thing about CTF technology is and this is something many people don't realize that when you touch something with your fingerprints often times you leave between one and three cells behind of your body. Okay. So that is called uh I mean so those one one to three cells they are of course very small and the number is very small but they contain genetic material and they contain two types of genetic material.

[00:13:19]One is mitochondrial DNA which you have inherited from your mother only and the other is nuclear DNA where the D where what you got from your mother and father got combined in in in a certain way which is unique to you. Okay. And so both nuclear DNA and mitochondrial DNA are present in very very tiny quantities in a fingerprint.

[00:13:47]Now if by by a process called PCR polymerase chain reaction this DNA can be amplified by that what what that means is that you can make many copies of the DNA many many many copies huge zillions of copies really and then you can analyze that DNA and then determine the identity of the person. But of course sometimes this process does not succeed because if if a very small amount of if only one cell is left for example maybe it will not work. Okay.

[00:14:22]Also there can be environmental damage.

[00:14:25][gasps] The the deposition of the CTF actually preserves the DNA because it is it is also deposited on top of those cells effectively. So it preserves the DNA and with a colleague named Reena Roy at Penn State uh she's a geneticist a forensic geneticist we were able to determine that there is a 95% chance that the DNA from those two or three or one um cell that were entombed by the finger >> which is which is actually yeah which is actually spread by touch of the person right on the on the person who they can actually just leave it >> the person who touched lost some of information. Okay.

[00:15:07]>> Yes. So that can be so this way you can have uh you know two types of identification the fingerprint using the CTF technology and the the the touch DNA as it is called using DNA forensics. Of course this kind of technique was not available even as late as let us say 10 years ago. touch DNA was not very well advanced but nowadays it is extremely well advanced.

[00:15:37]>> Yeah. So the in the in the case that we're actually just looking at there like I'm just going to tell you more in detail about what has been done what has not been done in the year 2000. Uh but before I would like to before before I just go proceed to that side. Um some people were asking me offline about like what originally led our professor to you know adapt this columner you know thin film technology from those non-materialistic research like you know how you actually just like apply this in your view like what made you actually just advance this technology or in other words what was missing or insufficient that you came up with this idea with your partner that you actually just built this technology together.

[00:16:22]>> Well, actually there are two there are two parts to that story. The first part is that I work um at uh in electromagnetic fields. I work on in the optical regime and [snorts] part of that regime is uh something we can see light the you know colored light that we see. So color has fascinated me for a long time and uh in nature color is formed in two different ways. One is using pigments which we all know you know like you paint your clothes for example with pigments right another way color is formed is in terms of a periodic structure that gives rise to I think many people will recognize when I say Bragg's law but they may have learned in high school physics. So Bragg's law in effect creates a wavelength dependent color separation and so you can see that uh quite easily. In fact if you look at uh at a window for example on which there is a film of oil [snorts] you can see colors. Okay. Sometimes on the road you can see where there is where a car has dropped some oil you can see colors fringes formed. So those are all structural colors as they are called.

[00:17:41]Okay. And they depend very much on the way you view them. So anyway, so this is something I was interested in and I came to know that butterflies some butterfly wings are strongly colored because they have structural color others of course because of pigments. And I said you know is there a way to reproduce the structural color in a laboratory? So I thought what I would do is to deposit these columnar thin films on the wings of butterflies which actually I was able to do and I was able to form I was able to then separate the column thin film uh from the wing and be able to see color just that color was different from the wing's color of course because I had not optimized everything but that we could see color that way And I also was working at the same time on determining um the amount of u of toxic material that could be present in a gas.

[00:18:48]Okay, for example, you know, if somebody releases a toxic gas uh somewhere, can we sense how much what is the concentration? Because depending on the concentration, remedial measures will have to be taken. Okay. So in that connection I thought I should talk to a forensic scientist because they will know about toxins much more than I would know. I mean my knowledge was very little of that. So I contacted a for a forensic um scientist named Bob Shaylor who was one of my colleagues in the university and Bob said to me come on around and I'll tell you about it and he and I had a long discussion. At the end of it, it turns out that forensic scientists actually don't use real toxins. They use false toxins. Meaning those toxins are not injurious to the human body, but they have the same forensic characteristics as real toxins have. So this way, this is for safety purposes. So I said, "Okay, fine." Um, and then as I was about to leave, he said he asked me if I could help him solve a problem. And I said, "What's the problem?" And he says, "There are fingerprints that are left behind at crime scenes and nobody can see them easily and identify the fingerprints."

[00:20:08]And I was very surprised. I thought from uh crime shows on television that perpetrators are very easily caught that way >> like forensic files.

[00:20:17]>> Forensic files kind of a thing. But he said no no that is all for TV. It's it's it's it's it's it's a there's a lot of work involved and even then you are not successful many times and you may be able to see fingerprints on for example uh the shiny blade of a knife. Okay. But what about the fingerprint that has been left behind on the dull wooden handle of the knife as an example. Okay.

[00:20:44]>> And I said okay well I said I didn't know that but he said can you think of a way? So since I was already depositing colmer thin films on butterfly wings by the way they were all dead butterflies um I decide I decided uh I should try and I did. So I I had my own fingerprint. I gave my own fingerprint on a on a glass slide and I film >> just to test. Yeah.

[00:21:09]>> Just to test and the and and the picture that came the the thing that came out was fantastic. It was I I I took a photograph, emailed it to Bob and Bob was ecstatic and he says, "Wow, this is amazing." So that is how it all began.

[00:21:25]This absolute breakthrough because that actually was the this actually that prompted me to actually just get interested in this uh as well. So now um I I think that I should be actually just telling you more about this case and now because this is a cold case again like 20 it it actually just occurred 26 years ago and this 15 year old girl um named child of 12 I as I actually just like um you know um um mentioned to you earlier that this was a topic if even before I moved to the United States this was actually something that really you know took up a lot of my mental energy to understand what exactly has been done and not not not has been done. So basically this girl is arriving home in the afternoon after school that there was no sign of force entry or anything like you know like an alarm going off or anything like that and then nothing appeared to have been stolen in the house or in the apartment. So then investigators concluded she was killed with a knife that actually the throat was slit and then what I actually just understand from the testimonies of people that she was stabbed like the the knife was plunged into the the um into the neck and after that the person just lift it out there and then somebody finds it and then unplug it and then splatter the blood splatter just like you know splashing all over the the face of the person that actually just found that must that was my assumption. uh despite the fact that you know there was some stories about that that the father is coming after you know mother is trying to reach out to the girl from outside that she's out on a doctor's appointment and then uh the neighbor downstairs neighbor is going up after the lady the mother calls the downstairs lady hey go and check on my daughter that I cannot get a hold of her and then she goes up and then opens the door and then she's she actually was set up on a on a bed that was like you know sexual assault that was done by somebody. But then the forensic investigators and at that time the the coronal report said that there was no like no sexual attack or just any kind of like abuse on the body. But then the the pictures just suggested that her legs were just spread open. So her school uniform was not necessarily just bloody as people said that that will be bloody. And then according to one of the um the um the forensic um architects named Hakani that I I would like to also just introduce him to you that he's one of those people that are actually just looking at this matter very scientifically mentioned that the bar um the the pressure of the blood that actually just came out from the the neck of the girl was [sighs] 06 bar and then um then testimonies I'm not necessarily just going to go into all the single details due to the time constraint, but would like to just give you that like some key forensic findings that most blood evidence belong to the girl. And then this was the report that actually just came from the authorities at that time in year 2000. We're looking at 26 years ago. So the blood stains found on her clothing and then throughout the the apartment were consistent with her DNA. So then there was a male DNA that was discovered and then the male DNA was profiled, you know, um it was actually just reportedly found beneath one of her fingernails that was actually her pinky fingernail.

[00:25:02]Then that actually was just in it was actually found in later forensic, you know, um testing. Basically, they could not find this DNA in 2000, but they actually found it in 2014, which actually just was an alarm for me.

[00:25:21]How is it possible that they actually just like, you know, kept that nail that was caught in the crime scene that wasn't caught in the forensic lab?

[00:25:31]Basically, they didn't take the body to the forensic lab. The cops are just going there crime scene. They go and just clip the nails from the matrix point and just put on those containers.

[00:25:42]But we do not have any kind of like suggestion that they use separate containers like ABCD like the five fingers ABCDE EF. We do not have any of those details. So we do not know how it was actually just kept where it was kept. But what we understand from the statement from the police that was working on the case, they mentioned that the cops are just going there. They are not taking any photos of the the process while they were just, you know, taking out those mattress fingers because as far as as far as I understand, they're not necessarily just clipping the tip of the nail. They're actually just getting from the matrix point the entire just like you know finger is fingernail is just being taken off. So, but when we're looking at the overall um um overall process, they didn't necessarily just follow the the the legal procedures or forensic best practices. Basically, those DNAs that they found did not match several people in 2014. They actually just found those DNAs. So they they just took some people into the custody including the neighbor's son and then the neighbor lady that found the body um they didn't actually just like you know find they didn't match it. So they didn't they also there was a there was also a composite DNA that like you know mixed DNA profiles were found on some items such as like you know several stains on the shorts contained DNA from both male and also like you know female contributor they also like you know saw some profiles um they did not necessarily lead investigators to an identified suspect. So then there's still they still claim that the finger print evidence exists on that pinky nail and then investigators reportedly reportedly you know recovered you know three unidentified fingerprints from the apartment but they didn't necessarily just match it to anybody because they were the the father you know the brother they all lived in the same place. So the police automatically didn't necessarily think, hey, this is the the the the perpetrator or the culprit is somebody from the apartment because everybody's thinking that there was a sexual attack attempt and then because of some difficulties more some erectile dysfunction or some people say a lot of people say the person is a pervert and then he went there he knew that the mother was not home and you know like then there were lots of controversial you know statements from some some media patterns like you know some media people that actually just say some claim. So what I actually I actually just identified those findings. So they found some found some evidence like shorts for example on the clothing there was blood belong to the girl but there was no sperm on the clothing like the shorts that she was wearing. She was supposedly wearing um something that was covering her underwear like for her skirt not to actually just like you know spread around due to the wind and stuff. She was wearing something like a like a volleyball legging kind of like a thing you know over her underwear. So then the police actually identified that the perpetrator um or they claimed that it was the perpetrator.

[00:29:11]He took out the underwear and then the shorts separately. So that was actually alarm for a lot of people that why would the person actually just take out underwear and then the shorts separately and then nobody answers it because nobody is actually just thinking that is the family that is somebody from outside. So there was a stain on the shorts and then this is number two. Like they they named the the numbers per what they found on the like the the first one the number five was the the blood the number two there's a stain belonging into the girl and then that was identified. So then um but they also just like made some tests for semen and sperm and they all came out negative. So there was, you know, on the shorts number one, three and four, they found some mixed DNA profiles. They were detected in 2013. Basically, the girl was killed in 2000 and then they found those DNAs in 2013. Now my question to you, will that be possible as long as you keep the you know those latent finger nails or you know you're not detecting in the first place but in 2013 you're using some technologies or if you as the the person that actually and we really appreciate your amazing work and then contribution by the way Mr. Laki about this whole thing. If you actually just like you know get a hold of those forensic investigators or the colonel office medical examiner by just looking at the technique that they used would you be able to say yes that is the right technique that you guys used to identify a finger fingernail which was latent in 2000 and you made it visible in 2013. Will that be possible?

[00:31:09]>> Well, it's a tough question to answer. I can tell you that I have done experiments where we took fingerprints on actual objects, you know, like paper, like um uh uh like glass, like metals of various kinds, brass, steel, [snorts] uh polymer, polymer tapes, you know, like u scotch tape for example. We have taken those and we have kept them outside in summers as well as in winters for as long as a month and then we have brought them inside and then we have been able to develop uh several of them not all several of them because you see if if the the fingerprint mark that is left behind is basically a lot of water which evaporates which can evaporate also a lot of fatty acids are there, lipids are there. Okay. Now these are materials that also contain water in them. So some water is free water that evaporates.

[00:32:16]Some water is in the lipids. Okay. And then there are some trace uh m trace materials like salt for example or if the person was uh under medication then it is possible that there is some medication also. some of the medicine is also in the fingerprints. It's possible.

[00:32:35]So these are all there. But when they are exposed to heat, uh rain, u snow, okay, in Pennsylvania where I do these experiments, snow is of course very common in winters. So they tend to destroy the fingerprint, but there can still be enough left. See because we have that level three pore detail you know not only we don't need a complete uh fingerprint we can have part of a fingerprint okay and in the finger in that part there are ridges and in the ridges there are those those craters like the caldera of volcanoes okay [snorts] and those are supposedly much more represent representative of the individual than even the ridges are Okay. Um, which are which are for the for the most part unique. But there now we know of cases where fingerprints have been mistaken. There are a few cases like that. But those rigid those pores are are supposed to be even more distinctive. So even from partial fingerprints it is possible to to to deduce identity. But I'm not a fing I'm not a fingerprint examiner myself. So I cannot say with great certitude.

[00:33:53]>> Absolutely. [laughter] How >> however, however with you can do that and if the detectives preserved uh m preserved physical artifacts from the scene from the crime scene and it is possible that somebody could have touched them that that the asalent could have touched them.

[00:34:16]I would say it is possible to re to to to visualize.

[00:34:24]I would say it is possible.

[00:34:26]>> It it is possible. So like one of my partners is asking Y is asking could developing forensic technologies reveal a trace that was unseen years ago and then we answered that question already.

[00:34:40]So now could this techniques that you mentioned let's say that Turkish authorities didn't necessarily just follow those like of course that you would have had an idea because CTF is what you actually just developed with your partner would you have any kind of like a preconceived information about that authorities there in Turkey used some of those technologies and best practices that you use or you wouldn't have this data >> well finger weapons are det are developed using a variety of techniques.

[00:35:14]Mostly powders of various kinds and uh some sort of dyes and pigments are used and of course the number of these keeps on growing uh about 10 years ago I was at a major forensic lab in Washington DC and they had a catalog of 8,000 different chemicals that had been used to develop fingerprints. Of course different for different on different substrates they have to use different materials and exactly >> so so they have to they have to be very careful about those things. So but if the Turkish authorities actually kept some of that uh physical artifacts with them I would say today we know much more about developing fingerprints than we knew 20 years ago. Okay. I think we can do something. It is it is it's worth a try if nothing else.

[00:36:07]I I'm going to ask you a question live like you know imagine this is my this is my arm and then I actually imagine that this is my you know um fingerprint information or some blood stain that was actually captured in a in using you know minimum of like you know 400 I will say 420p or close to 420p picture resolution camera that they actually took a photo of my arm during that like I don't know who but somebody did. So let's say that we have this picture that somebody says for example father says um of course he came he came over to the apartment and he said hey the first thing that I did was to check if my daughter was killed and then imagine that there was a big cut on the throat of the girl and then there was foaming generated just like formed right over the surface where the slit occurred and Then some people report that whoever saw those photos like Hakanese the gentleman that I told you that he saw the foam and then father still just makes the touch and then goes and just touches it to understand if the girl has any pulse. So then he claimed that he had excessive amount of blood on on his hands that was dripping. And then there was even an interview that he said, "Hey, when I came over to the apartment and then I saw my daughter slain, but I didn't know if she was actually killed." So, I instinctly went ahead and just took the pulse. And then, I mean, I'm just seeing it as like very suspicious act because the neighbor that found the girl just like an hour before, she immediately said, "This person is deceased." She even screams and she says, "Hey, somebody slit the throat of Chala. She's dead. So, everybody's going downstairs and father comes back and he just takes the pulse and then he says his hands are all bloody and then is dripping and then what I was just thinking at the time that I would say I mean there are two questions actually.

[00:38:20]First of all, will it be even possible for somebody that is going to the crime scene after reported like reported, you know, murder occurred like an hour before and this person goes and then realizes that the the girl is just laying down with pure blood everywhere over the bed and then he still goes and takes the pulse on a cut surface. Then his hands are all just getting bloody.

[00:38:46]When the cops actually come to the scene and see see the father, the father says, "Hey, I just like, you know, touched my girl's throat and that is the reason why my hands all got bloody." And then he explains why there's some like, you know, uh, blood drops underneath the the the apartment, the the other story, like the this is the upper level story. And then he explains that there was a you know like a um blood drops or blood traces downstairs.

[00:39:17]First of all is it even possible to have this outside all the coagulation rules of science in >> yes example there it sounds very strange to me uh blood coagulates very quickly.

[00:39:30]In fact, if blood remains liquid, then uh then that person did not have clotting agents in their blood. Uh >> exactly. Exactly.

[00:39:41]>> Yes. I would I would very much doubt u I mean it's actually a fairly simple experiment if if somebody were to take some blood, you know, for various reasons and just put a drop on on on on glass and you will start seeing it congealed within minutes actually. So I don't think so. Now the other point that you brought about about the father now you have to see she he is the father.

[00:40:06]Let's just for the moment imagine that he is distraught. I would be I would imagine any father would be distraught about about uh their daughter being murdered. Okay. Um I think when people are distraught they can do strange things. Okay. uh they are not under control by of their own control. So they can do strange things but I don't think that his uh his an hour later his hands would be dripping with her blood. I don't think that's possible. No >> exactly. So that that was actually something that when when Hakanesei this this gentleman actually just mentioned that he did not believe the girl was actually just killed by somebody outside the apartment is because there was no like bewilderment or any kind of like hey you know what confused statement from from the girl.

[00:41:02]She was actually just very kind of like excited to hear or to see or face somebody and then she goesh.

[00:41:10]It's just like ah ah it's like oh you're still here or you're like oh what what are I doing out here? But that wasn't actually something the neighbor neighbor's daughter actually just report is that was like an alarm situation that was just pretty normal that she actually just sees someone and then she actually just gets like you know over maybe excited. So now when Hakis says the body was possibly just taken from one spot in the apartment to another spot and then she was laid, you know, like she was actually just laid uh uh uh she she was actually just laying um back down, not like you know face down. And then and then uh he actually explained the girl was actually just caught on the left, but when you're seeing the blood stains, the blood stains were more on the right side. So he concluded that somebody twisted her on the bed before they actually just like, you know, fix the adjustment or just fix the alignment to open the or spread open the legs and then just put the underwear. is just like all all the way like it was just clumped right in between her feet and then the the um uh the they staged the scene under her >> they staged they staged they they staged yeah it is obvious they staged so now what I actually just saw that was very strange uh Dr. to Latakia. So when I first reached out to you, there was a TV show. They were covering this this uh crime scene. They still did. And then fortunately, they put a photo of the deceased girl's leg. And that was very strange. And just because of that uh exposure, the TV show actually just got some kind of like letter of reprimand or something like that from the from the authorities.

[00:43:02]There was a blood stain right over the leg. I believe that was the right that was the right leg of the girl and then it is just like inside the leg. It is just like almost on the shin in between the shin and then also like between her ankles and her kneecap right over that like you know muscly surface. So when I'm thinking about this, there's no way father actually just said in the interviews that like he touched that leg. Basically he said the only place where I touched my daughter on was on her throat where she where where he actually just took the balls. And then the second thing is that her her her body was exposed and then her skirt was a little bit like you know over her apparently just over her stomach. So father says I instinctively went ahead and just grabbed the grabbed the the skirt and just cover her private areas. So now there there are three things here. First the skirt that the father touched that wasn't bloody. So but her entire body, her entire face and then even the the um the overall like you know face and neck and everywhere was just bloody. Some blood right over splatter on the the um on the the walls and then the you know the bed sheet was all just paved with blood. the uh the the um the pillowcase and all those were just paid. And then there was some indications of foam that was still coming on the body. But there was one thing interesting like I mentioned on my arm on her leg there was a blood stain. So it actually just shows somebody carried her holding her legs. I mean it actually just suggests two people did it. Two people because nobody can answer. It is it is not easy to it is not easy to move a body >> move a body exactly >> especially deceased person without so now from this example that when we are looking at this is a there's a clear picture >> and I'm assuming that there are also clear pictures of the girls entire you know like crime scene photos neck you know like to the cop area and everything from this from this enhancements perspective of the like AI I you know like machine learning algorithms and everything. So see I'm also in IT that I'm also just working on this too.

[00:45:38]Is it possible now to evaluate those taken photos to identified unidentified or latent finger prints of anybody just looking at those like you know photos today. Well, let me say this. Latent fingerprints are called latent because they cannot be seen and if if it's from by our eyes and so a camera is cannot record them. However, [snorts] there may when when somebody touches uh somebody's arm or or or thigh for that matter, okay, they may leave behind depressions that may persist and that is particularly true if the if the person they are touching is no longer alive [snorts] because you see blood circulation is stopping at that point. Okay? So there might be marks left that could indicate uh you know a thumb print or a fingerprint or many fingerprints for that matter. It is possible. Um now the the police personnel who took those photographs first of all uh what kind of resolution did their cameras have?

[00:46:51]That's one issue. But if they were very high resolution cameras, okay, then I think it is worth looking at at digital enhancement of those photographs.

[00:47:04]uh and I think today we have I AI techniques uh that if there is some trace obtained you see you don't need a full fingerprint only a small part can be enough at times okay at times >> okay >> uh if they if they obtain then that can be enhanced uh and and maybe they match somebody how do I know okay the real the real question is that this would be there would be a lot of research involved D and and of course assuming that those photographs are high density photographs and they are they're available. Okay. Uh some research would be involved and then after the research will uh will a judge uh accept that as evidence? That is a very >> Yeah, there actually a question for Yeah, there's actually a question.

[00:47:54]There's a there's a attorney that actually just initiated all this like you know reviving this story that was actually just not necessarily you know covered by the media. So his name is Al Thai. So I'm actually just calling out his name here so that I cannot get a hold of him but if he gets a hold of me it I can engage you with him and then he and you and I actually just can go and just speak with authorities there in Turkey. Um I'm actually just going to pay a visit to Turkey very soon. Maybe I might even just go and visit the prosecutor's office to even speak about this stream. So like so you know uh doctor this is just going to be change into the Turkish um stream and then audience is going to be able to actually just convert from English to to Turkish by I'm just going to show them how to do the setting. So I'm going to be doing the same setup for the prosecutors and the forensic you know investigators there in Turkey. So now my question to you will be if we actually just collect all this data that you actually just shared and I believe that this is one of the the the most you know I will say the breakthrough um streams that I ever seen and I'm proud of you. I honestly am just like, you know, somebody that initiated this conversation, but you came forward and then I really I'm so grateful to you about this. So now if I actually can get a hold of this gentleman, the attorney who has more information about this, you know, case and as as I mentioned that like I didn't even see those crime crime scene photos. So looking at all this evidence, is it possible for you to evaluate what has been done by the you know by the colonel's office or the medical examiner so far like and then you can provide your insight into verifying some others like you know maybe the touch DNA cell DNA that you mentioned about >> because the only information that we have about >> say say one more time >> I would be happy to take a look but you know I'm not I keep in mind I am not I'm not in the police and I am not a I'm not in the in the business >> but as a scientist I certainly would like to take a look >> there is fantastic I'm just making this English in Turkish right now this is Mr. for I just like you know mention to the audience that you you're going to be contribute by just reviewing the evidence and then thanks to the attorney that I am just going to engage with hopefully we're going to be actually just going to have you know some deep dive conversation with the medical exam examiner's office and then also the autopsy person that actually just conducted his autopsy down the road. Of course, um this is I'm I'm very excited actually. So, thank you. basically. So when I'm when I'm actually just looking at the entire evidence that I am assuming that they kept the clothing of the girl like the socks, underwear, um the skirt and then her shirt >> and I do you think that after years passing just 26 years? I mean that that literally was 26 years back on the 5th of June 2026.

[00:51:53]Looking at all the evidence collected if they were kept in an intact state, do you think that we can still identify those cell DNA just looking at those clothing?

[00:52:04]>> I I I mean I can say this uh with some understanding of the of the of the technology. Uh it is definitely possible today to identify DNA that would have been missed um 20 years ago. Okay, it's certainly possible to do that. Uh in fact um you know there's a techn there is a company called Illuminina that makes very highly sophisticated uh uh systems for gen for for genetic identification. Okay. And uh they can they can work with as I said one or two or even three cells that they can identify. It is the the the bigger question would be how to eliminate uh non-acctors meaning how to eliminate people >> contamination. Yeah. who who were not who who did not participate in the crime but you know they may have she went to school for example and somebody may have you know put a hand on her shoulder as an example okay and may have left something behind so such people will have to be excluded um uh and you know but I but I think it is it is definitely possible um definitely possible to do that yes >> that is that is that is fantastic that is absolutely amazing Yeah.

[00:53:26]>> So basically now we got the starting point on just like you know getting a hold of those medical examiner the previous one and active one and then whatever that they're actually just doing that there will be a chance for you to review what they have actually just put together from the scientific point of view. So now I am seeing that if it is possible for everybody to to understand they found some saliva kind of like a evidence outside the apartment complex. So basically it is a little bit in my opinion preposterous to even go after a DNA that was like a saliva or spit or something like that outside the compound or the apartment building compound. And then they're just looking at the evidence right now. I mean it is very unrelated in my opinion because it's not inside apartment. It is outside the the apartment complex. They found some saliva. So they're now doing assuming on deceased people of course that they're actually just suspecting this saliva might be belonging to somebody that died 10 years ago, 15 years ago. They're doing assuming right now. Do you think that this a that's a good practice to even just go after a saliva that was found outside the apartment, outside the building? We don't even know where, but they're thinking that the the killer he actually might have sped or something like that and then they actually just can go ahead and just find the killer. Is it even possible? Is it even logical for you to go after that kind of like a DNA?

[00:55:02]>> That certainly sounds improbable. Highly improbable.

[00:55:06]Um, highly improbable I would say. But if they have a suspect in mind, then they could perhaps they could perhaps reconstruct his or her movement after the crime.

[00:55:22]And if in during a reconstruction, if they find saliva at a at a at a specific place that is compatible with the reconstruction, uh then perhaps yes. Otherwise, it's a shot in the dark.

[00:55:41]Okay. Okay. So, okay. Got you. I got my answer. So, like I'm just reading like I'm just looking all those like um uh questions not necessarily just focus on each one of them. But uh Milik is asking could you please ask professor what is the possibility to resolve this based on his experience although like although that you mentioned about I mean you you gave us some disclaimers about like you're not a forensic scientist but you work in the field and then everybody knows you in this field. What is your I will say what is the possibility to res solve a crime like this based on I mean this is a cold case remember this was extended 3 years for ex statute of limitation was added another 3 years what's your what's your thought process on this >> well I mean I one thing I would say is uh I don't imagine that the Turkish police was uh very Turkish criminology, criminological practice was very well advanced uh 25 years ago, 26 years ago.

[00:56:50]I kind of doubt that. Okay. Um it wasn't as advanced in the United States at that time. Okay. And even even today uh unless a case is a very high-profile case uh routine issues take place in crime labs which uh start putting doubts on uh on keep in mind that the forensic examiners that are commonly engaged in United States for example they are not PhDs [snorts] they they are people they are people with bachelor's degrees often they police personnel who have had to start doing uh this kind of work because there is nobody else to do it. Okay. And they kind of get trained on the job. So they have very good training of course and they have a lot of experience because they're dealing with crimes all the time. Okay. But uh but but detectives who are dealing with crimes, for example, in New York City will be far more knowledgeable and and and and proficient than say somebody who is dealing within in Grand Junction, Colorado, you know, uh in a small town where there are very few crimes if any.

[00:58:09]Okay. So it very much depends. I think the Turkish police probably in Istanbul they were probably the best uh prepared to handle evidence but 25 years ago no I don't think they would know as much and they may not have actually preserved the right kind of evidence that's also possible yet it is possible that some evidence was preserved but overlooked.

[00:58:34]>> So a a fresh investigation is a good idea >> is a good idea. Yeah. And also one of our one of our professors, I'm not sure if you know her. Her name is um Cil Atasoy. She's a forensic uh she's actually forensic science professor. She did a lot of coverage on TV. She's like a media mogul. I will say that like she had written a lot of books and then um she's she's very, you know, reputable person and then very trustworth person.

[00:59:06]When she speaks, she's actually just highly respected. So there was one broadcast that she actually just speaks in general view that she says if you're going to go after DNA without any motive, you will end up just locking up wrong people in prison system.

[00:59:24]>> That's like a motive.

[00:59:27]>> Yeah.

[00:59:28]>> Yes. So what is your view on that one?

[00:59:31]>> So she's like >> I I would like to add in Charai's case people are going after the DNA. So that's why they're looking at a person that says, you know, on TV, she says this person that actually did this brutal crime is a pervert. She says another person like a media media person says. She says this person who killed Chala, it is father or it is brother or it is from outside that person is a pervert. Now everybody is looking whoever committed this crime is someone that is outside the family because she thinks the person that tried this is a per. So automatically Turkish people are thinking that this is not an honored crime or this is just like a person that had attempted to rape her and then but he had a erectile dysfunction or he might have had erectile dysfunction. So he got riled up and then he ended up just grabbing a knife and just butchering her.

[01:00:38]>> Yes.

[01:00:39]>> So that is the reason why my asking question about motive was civil. So says that you have to first identify the motive before you go and chase the DNA.

[01:00:50]>> So that's I would say about >> I would not say about first identifying the motive. Um uh but at least there should be some understanding of what possible motives are there and there should be that certainly uh a pervert could be an outsider who did that but there are perverts inside the household inside your family also >> let's not exclude them and in addition uh there is also for for a variety of reasons it is possible that a family member was perpetrator or a friend was a perpetrator. Uh these should not be excluded right away. Um uh but they should be considered as well.

[01:01:36]But at the same time uh if you go for hunt if you go hunting for DNA uh without uh without some direction you are going to imprison a lot of innocent people because she was not living as an as an armit. She was living in society.

[01:01:56]She was going to school, I guess, at the age of 15.

[01:01:59]>> Yes.

[01:01:59]>> Absolutely right. Absolutely right.

[01:02:03]>> So, so you have to you have to have both both things side by side.

[01:02:08]>> Exactly. So, basically you need to have equal level of motive and DNA and then you go after it like you know or chase down. So um the like you mentioned about this coagulation that I when I actually just um there was another host that we got somebody from Turkey that she's also just like a very well-known person and her name is Zade Umit. So she appeared on my broadcast live stream and then she said there will be impossible for anybody to have a you know um uh dripping blood patterns like the father says hey you know like this drops drops drops and there was a neighbor that actually just saw that like blood drops and then she was chasing it down all the way to the exit of the apartment complex and then what we discovered that there is not even possible to have any kind of like Okay. Um, you know, um, evidence that the father really just like, you know, touched the body and then he started just like, you know, pour down the girl's blood on the surface or on the like, you know, floors. So now looking at the amount of blood and there's also eyewitness testimony, a lady um, uh, her name is Rahan. She's an older lady. She actually just witnessed this as a, you know, as a as a crime.

[01:03:30]So, she saw this guy, the father, holding the the knife outside the balcony or inside the balcony and then there's a there's a eyewitness testimony and now the the prosecutor is interviewing her and then they're also just asking they're they're just making a lot of sanity just checks on her about like she has some kind of like you know like mental retardedness or anything like that or whatever. So now looking at that evidence, the father had excessive amount of blood on the hands, on the clothing. And now can we say this person, the father, either is the perpetrator or somebody that could have prevented this crime from happening by taking the the the knife outside the wound. Because what I understand when you actually just plunge the knife on the artery and then on the arter vessel right here or the vein vein system >> and then as far as I understand that the cut was so deep that you can see her internal organs like the the you know the breeding channels and then eating channels and all those things >> like esophagus and stuff. So now when we're looking at that, is there any way to identify with the amount of blood that was on the on the on the father given the time of the crime and he's appearing there on the crime scene? Is it possible to even draw if I mean from I mean I know that you will say I don't know maybe this the forensic scientist will actually just do this. Is there any way to draw us the picture or like the outlay of this crime to better identify better focus on who actually just did it or if the father witnessed it?

[01:05:29]>> The father could be a [laughter] should should be considered as a person of interest.

[01:05:35]Certainly he should be considered as a person of interest and one should not rule out that he could have he could have been twice in the same room.

[01:05:45]Uh at one time very close to the crime if not when the crime was committed and then the second time an hour later.

[01:05:55]>> H okay. Okay.

[01:05:57]>> That's that's a possibility to be to be to be to be you know investigated.

[01:06:04]Yeah, basically they're also like from I'm just going to combine it to CTF because there are some photos of the father apparently that like um the witness says, "Hey, I saw this person with the blood and holding the the knife, the weapon, and now there's some pictures of the clothing and everything like even from the clothing of the the person that actually might have been captured. Is it even possible to even just go after those cell DNA even the CTF to you know analyze the photos of the the person's outfit to better analyze this?

[01:06:42]>> Not not from not from the photographs.

[01:06:44]No, >> not from the photographs. Okay.

[01:06:48]>> No. No.

[01:06:49]>> Okay. Okay.

[01:06:50]>> I mean uh certainly certainly you cannot you cannot determine DNA or blood etc from from photographs. Okay. Um what as I said what what may be possible is to see if there are impressions of fingerprints left behind which might be recorded in a high density photograph.

[01:07:11]Yes, >> this is this is possible. This is possible. So, Dharm was actually just speaking about this. So, I actually just wanted to mention about this.

[01:07:21]>> So, I think that I I asked many questions and then I think that I'm very excited that because >> we can talk about the CTF technology over and over, but we got to to the bottom of this that this is the science that might be evaluated in solving this crime. So, Dr. Lakia, thank you so much for your time. First of all, this was an amazing stream and then you will see that if you actually just check later on how many people view this is going to be thousands of people. And I hope that this stream is going to be watched by those forensic investigators there in Turkey. And then I would like to also just promise if you ever visit Istanbul, I am going to be your host to actually just take you down the the town while we are helping this investigators and forensic scientists there in Turkey to solve this crime. So >> thank you doctor. Thank you so much.

[01:08:15]Thank you.

[01:08:16]>> Thank you. You're very you are very kind. And for the sake of that young woman, I do hope that her killer is caught and punished.

[01:08:25]Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm going to now I'm now going to turn to Turkish.

[01:08:49]Dr. Professor, we love you so much again. Thank you so much.

[01:08:53]>> Thank I look forward to speaking again.

[01:08:56]>> Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.

[01:08:58]>> Thank you. Thank you very much. Byebye.