In relationships, the ethics of lying depends on the context and potential consequences; while honesty is generally valued, lying may be justified when it prevents greater harm, maintains necessary relationships, or when the truth would cause disproportionate damage to others, as demonstrated through personal examples of navigating difficult relationship dynamics.
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The Ethics of Lying & Dating a Dad
Added:So Berto, we have some emails here that are sent to us for us to respond to.
What do you say?
>> Let's do it.
>> This is the Psychology in Seattle podcast. I'm host Dr. Kirk. I'm a therapist and I'm also a professor.
>> My name is Ombberto Casaya and I grow six-legged spiders.
>> So annual anonymous patron, she wrote in and says, "I have an email about dating a man with kids." She says, "I'd love your perspective on relation on this relationship dynamic. I'm 36 and have been this is a bit of a long email, but I think it's it's worth getting into entirely. I'm 36 and I have been dating my boyfriend who was 38 for about a year. He has two young kids, seven and four, and he is divorced about one and a half years ago. Overall, he is a caring and supportive partner. He shows up when I express needs. He includes me in a social life. And he says he wants a future with me. So they've been together for how long now? Oh, about a year.
Okay.
>> However, he has not introduced me to his kids and he keeps that part of his life completely separate. He says he wants to quote unquote protect his kids from getting attached in case the relationship doesn't work out with me.
At the same time, he brings his kid around. He's he brings his kids around to our mutual friends, which makes me feel excluded and confused about where I stand.
The dynamic with his ex is also complicated. She cheated on him during the marriage and is now living with this man that she cheated with. This man has never met my boyfriend even though he is living full-time with the kids. This this man has never met my boyfriend even though he is living full-time with his kids.
>> Wow.
>> Okay. So, it sounds like the uh her boyfriend's ex-wife, so she cheats and then >> marries the guy >> and then after the relationship ends, then you know continues the relationship with the guy. It's it's no longer an affair with >> the kids live with them >> and it sounds like they uh fasttracked their relationship because they're living together at this point, right?
Yeah.
>> And so when the kids go to her house, then they're naturally going to meet him, right? And so she, you know, this ex-wife probably thinks of him as more of like a permanent fixture.
>> Well, no. I actually I'm understanding even more that the kids live with the ex-wife and therefore are basically full-time with this other person, but the other person hasn't even met, >> right, >> this girl's boyfriend, this this guy's boyfriend.
>> Yeah. We'll get into the debate about this, but >> uh the emailer here here uh doesn't live with the father.
>> Correct.
>> You know, anyway, >> um this man has never met my boyfriend even though he is living full-time with So, that's another detail is just like ex-husband and new guy have never met face to face. And I wonder >> I mean the the obviously the anti the the antipathy is because of the cheating but you need to put the kids ahead of that >> right. Uh commonly in order to at the very least show uh good uh behavior or or you know um what do I say cooperative behavior to the kids. You just want to show that your two dads are on [snorts] the same page on some level, you know, but it's not completely necessary at all times. It's not like they couldn't parent without ever talking to each other, you know? So, >> u So, there's no accusation here in this email that there's any bad parenting going on. So, who knows? But, but anyway, uh generally speaking though, you you'd want a good But it's common to one not have a relationship between those two men or to hate each other.
Yeah.
>> And and just never try to have a good working relationship. Any I've offered to meet with his ex-wife because I think it is the right thing to do if his kids are in the picture. So emailer is like, "Look, if I'm going to hang out with the kids as kind of like a stepmom, I would want to meet with the kid's actual mom because I I don't know. It just feels like if I were in her shoes, I would want to meet me." And uh anyway, and yet my husband doesn't I think that's what email are saying. It's like my husband hasn't demanded to see to to meet with a father figure in her in his own kids' lives.
>> He does my hus my boyfriend of one year.
He does not like that idea of me meeting his ex-wife. And I think partly because he is really hurt that he has not met this man. He does not like that idea.
And I think partly because he is really hurt that he is Oh. So, he's hurt that he hasn't met the other guy. Anyway, I also find it really inappropriate on her side, the ex-wife, that she has not made that happen for the kids, meaning that the new stepdad has met the dad. Um, in the dynamic, I think the kids will eventually understand what happened and will be the ones that suffer. My boyfriend tends to be avoidant. He struggles to make uh to make proactive decisions and often delays big steps in the relationship even though he expresses that he wants them quote unquote eventually.
Recently his father passed away and I've noticed him becoming more emotionally withdrawn which I understand but it's adding to my feeling of insecurity.
Because of immigration issues he cannot leave the country and therefore was not able to see his father before he passed.
Oh, >> my questions are, how can I distinguish between healthy caution as a parent and avoidant behavior that may keep the relationship stuck? Okay, so let's focus on the questions here first. How can she distinguish between healthy caution from her boyfriend, >> right?
>> And avoidant behavior that may keep the relationship stuck, meaning they'll always be stuck in the >> Yeah. in the you know if we say there's the dating phase and then there's the serious girlfriend phase and then there's the serious girlfriend who meets your kids phase they seem to be in the serious girlfriend phase and they might be stuck there forever how does she distinguish between that burd uh so I I prepared a question here for this occasion question one did this person have such lack of clarity in the situation that they had to write in to a Yes or no? Okay. Well, that answers the question. So, in my opinion, it's been a year. Now, I'm not sitting here saying that by law, by one year, you better meet those kids. Now, I do think it's been a long time, and I do find it odd and frustrating, third person, frustrated here, that they haven't been introduced. Um, I totally get the idea of like, hey, I'm dating right now. Now, I'm not going to have my kids. I'm not going to walk a parade of dates to introduce them to my kids. That's But it's been a year. Okay, number one.
Number two, it's not only that it's been a year, there's obviously no plan.
There's been no discussion of when it would happen or under what circumstances, and that's why this person is writing in. So, because of all that, I'm like, no, this isn't just like natural, you know, uh concern for the welfare of the kids. This is something more than that in my opinion, right? So therefore, I think it's right to suspect that that I I don't know if it's because they're avoidant or whatever, but I think that this isn't super healthy from my perspective. I think that at the very least, there should be some conversation of hey, if we're actually we've been together for a year. Your kids are your kids. I've never met them now. I I understand why maybe that is, but is there a plan for us? Like what what what do you think was like that conversation is necessary? And depending on the answers, if the answers are like I don't know, we'll see maybe. Yeah, that means that there's something missing there.
>> Yeah. Well, so my answer to this I guess will be predictable, but I will say the following and this is kind of from a clinical perspective, but I think it also is generating from my own personal cultural vibe of this whole thing that there are two things happening. I think one is that I given your description, I don't see anything abnormal about it.
That's what I'll say. There's nothing uh that screams like, "Oh my god, there's a big problem." It, you know, it's been a year, but another consideration is he's only been divorced for a year and a half or separated, you know. So, this isn't like 10 years from now. He he is, in my book, in early recovery from a difficult divorce. Sounds like he was cheated on.
Sounds like this probably wasn't his choice, the whole scenario. and comparing his timeline to his ex-wife isn't necessarily fair cuz you know she's a different person but also she apparently left the marriage a long [ __ ] time ago cuz she was having affairs, >> right? Um so for him this could be quite a blow and given his avoidant nature, right? That makes sense. But the second thing has to do with what Berto is getting at as well which is communication and having those kind of conversations. Yes, you you you as the writer in or anonymous annual patron, I would identify what your needs are. I'm implying your needs, but don't let me put needs in your soul. You really want to dig down deep because often these discussions completely ignore needs, which is really what everyone is talking about. Mhm.
>> So, it sounds like, but don't let me define this for you, that you have a need for security, that you want to know if he's serious about you. If you're going to invest all this time and you it sounds like you want to have this relationship progress and be forever or at least you want to take to the to the next level, then that's okay. That's your need. And focusing on that rather than well, is the timeline happening exactly as it is? Because you know in a very weird universe I suppose you could have that security locked in and he could tell you that locked in and you could still not see the kids and that might actually meet your needs, >> right?
>> Um now you don't have a relationship with these kids. So it's not like the kids were taken away from you and and you need them back. So you know to you this is you don't have an attachment to them. So really the kids could just be a proxy for that. now makes sense that you also want to get this thing moving and you'd love to get to know his kids and >> and remember that they're common their mutual friends see the kids.
>> Yeah. But that's different, right?
Because for boyfriend >> Yeah.
>> introducing uh or just continuing to have relationships with Uncle Mike who is your friend pre and post divorce.
That's neither here nor there. But to introduce to now could that be facilitated maybe like hey this is anti-anonymous patron and you don't tell the kids that you're you know dating and that sort of I don't know you but there's certainly culturally strange but if anything I would wish that people would air on this side than what they almost always [ __ ] do when they introduce their kids on date two or date [ __ ] one >> and they do it with dozens of dates which is the [ __ ] norm culturally. So when something is so far from that it feels so weird that we immediately say something's up there. Now there's also a possibility that you know if we just think about the relationship that he is in no place and rationally so to make any kind of decision about long-term feelings or commitment. And if that's the case then he needs to buck up and tell you that. And then you just have to deal with what that means to you.
>> Yeah.
>> But he might not feel that's possible or he might not dig down deep or he might avoid thinking about it or whatever. But allowance for that has to be in place because I'm guessing for anonymous patron whenever she talks about this with with friends, they react the way Berto did which is like what the [ __ ] is going on with this guy? But you know who's going to listen to the two of your needs? And maybe they're incompatible.
You know, maybe for him he's like, "Look, at this point, I wouldn't put a lot of faith that I'm going to ever be in a place where I want to marry or commit of any sort, which could mean that you literally never meet my kids until they're adults or something."
>> Like, there's a chance that he's in that space and that's okay. He just has to dig down deep, figure that out, and tell you about it.
>> Yeah.
>> Or maybe it's more flexible. It probably is.
>> And again, he has to dig. So, how do you So, you're you have a question here about how do you communicate? Well, it's a conversation. Go to couple therapy.
That's my short answer. But the longer one is that you approach him in a way that cuz when you're approaching avoidantly attached people, unfortunately, you can do everything perfect and they could still just like not show up emotionally or conversationally, which is [ __ ] annoying, believe me. Um, so you've got to go on a campaign often. You can't just have a few conversations. You've got to like take it on the chin that you're going to get a lot of weird [ __ ] avoidance and and non-answers and um people shutting down because even if you're super nice and you're just like, "Look, I I'm not pressuring you.
I'm just, you know," and you give all the caveats, they could still just be like, "I don't I don't I thought we talked about this."
and and and you know, so you know, if this relationship matters to you, which it sounds like it does, you go on a campaign and this generalizes to your whole relationship because this is not, you know, if you do end up in a relationship with him, this is not the first time you're going to have to deal with something like this. You know, >> not the last time. Yes.
>> Not the last time. Sorry. Um, so, uh, you know, I sympathize with you and you go on a campaign and you have all the caveats and you try to essentially you're trying to manage someone's unconscious anxiety that kicks in that they aren't even aware of because they're [ __ ] avoidant, >> right?
>> And so, you have to word things in a way and you have to caveat with like, I'm not here to attack you and I'm and I'm just curious how you feel. and baseline they could be afraid of even just looking at their feelings and you can't caveat that away right because that's between them and their emotions. So you know it's hard. Now if I were your friend though I would say hey en you know enjoy it. You're once you start having the kids around maybe often that introduces a whole other level. Now, maybe you're digging, maybe you're you're really, but you know, a lot of people wish they could go back to before times when you didn't have to deal with even your own kids, let alone steps >> that are [snorts] influenced by >> you know, biological mom and stepdad and uh you know, you're in the beginning times and there's no rush and you're in love and you enjoy each other's company, you know, like there's there's there's no rush. If I'm guessing, well, you're right that it might be that they actually really love kids and stuff, but if I'm guessing this has got more to do with what it symbolizes, right? Yeah.
>> Right. And that you can ask for that.
You can say, you know, never mind about your kids. That that's uh I would love to know your kids and uh that's your choice. You're the dad. What I'm looking for is reassurance, you know, and of course, your intention on eventually having me meet the kids shows that, you know, if if you boyfriend said, "No, you're never meeting my kids," then I would interpret that as maybe this isn't going to last very long. And it sounds like he has told you that uh anonymous patron because you quote him as saying eventually. [snorts] >> It just sounds like he just avoids the whole thing. And like I said, given the trauma of being cheated on and and dumped, uh, is hard. And so there's there's a chance that he's just like, "Look, I can't I can't I don't I don't even if I did love you to the point where I could commit forever to you, I I don't I'm not going to let myself because I'll be damned if I'm going to open myself up at especially at this early phase.
>> I'm just not going to do it, you know.
Um, I you know, I was dating and I ca and you and I met. I I didn't know if I'd meet anyone else and I did meet you and you know, and I love it, but I I'm not ready to think about even a year from now, you know, and I don't know if I'm if my heart is going to be consistent. I don't know where, you know, and and that sucks, especially if you're on the more preoccupied side or even if you're not. And then you just have to make a decision for yourself if that's a dealbreaker. All right, let's take a break. What do you say, Berto?
>> Let's do it.
>> All right, back from the break. Middle tier patron Nicole. She says, "The H is silent."
[laughter] >> Nice.
>> Nacho.
>> Nacho.
>> Uh, hello Dr. Kirk and Ombberto. In May of last year, I made a dance mom friend.
This is another long email, so it'll challenge my dyslexia. In May of last year, I made a dance mom friend. We hit it off immediately. Berto, what's a dance mom, friend?
>> Dance mom. So, you have your kid uh in dance classes, and you take them to the dance classes. While you're at the dance classes, there are other parents there, and you notice that there's someone maybe around your age, that looks just about as interested, maybe their kid is about the same age. So, you strike up a conversation and you become a dance mom friend. I've done it.
>> Yeah. Uh >> I pick up dance moms all the time.
>> Yeah. Uh I don't want to ask any questions to get any more elaboration on that. Thank you going on. But I realized that when we had but when I realized that we had some major differences uh but then I realized we after years I listened to your pod and doing some reading she seems to show some butler covert narcissistic behavior. Oh. So middle tier patron Nicole with the H being silent. She's saying that this friend, this dance mom friend has Butler syndrome as we'll we talk about in the podcast with >> what's butler syndrome.
>> So this is in a nutshell due to early trauma often it's physical emotional abuse. you learn that you don't matter and you have a hard time knowing who you are even and as a way to you know have attachments you whether it's friends or partnerships, you turn yourself into a butler that you're 100% 24/7 focused on your partner and what they need and what they want and your only purpose in life is to please them and make them happy.
>> Oo, I've had pseudo butler behaviors with my with some of my friendships.
Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Maybe not.
>> I mean, I would say it's Yeah. It's not It's not there. So, there's pleasers, right? And there's putting yourself on the back burner. And then there's butler syndrome, which is, you know, the covert narcissistic thing. I've talked about that with Bob in previous episodes. It's It's kind of complicated, but >> Oh, butler. I thought you said butt lover. Never mind. [laughter] >> Going on. For example, if we were to spend four hours together, 3.75 of those hours would be spent on her talking poorly about how her kid goes unnoticed at the dance studio our kids attend.
>> Oh, I see. So, a lot of time would be spent talking poorly about how her kids goes unnoticed. So, maybe by the teachers or something. Uh she was so fun and event and even she was so fun and and even she was sweet but she would say awful things about people and justify it with her victimization. Okay, just I don't know if I would call this butler syndrome precisely uh as we define it with Bob, but I think the covert narcissism thing might fit. Anyway, going on. I believe her experiences, but I started to catch on to the fact that she was using this to control my experience at the studio as well as to who I befriended. I always left our hangouts feeling drained, manipulated, and that I couldn't be honest about my experiences. We had a few moments where I was direct with her and she completely lied to me about our intentions, our interactions. Sorry. Um, okay. So, if I'm reading between the lines a little bit, I think what she's saying is like, okay, on the surface, she's really nice and sweet, but then when you get close to her, she starts talking endless [ __ ] about everyone else and constantly feels like she's the victim and she's using her kid as sort of the proxy for that sort of like munchous and narcissism >> and and also that when she hangs out with her, she feels drained and manipulated um afterwards. Yeah. Okay. I have definitely known people like this. Uh there's one in particular that uh was uh they're no longer right now in my in my life. They haven't been for years, but uh someone that uh was married to a friend of mine and was extremely fun to hang out with except that over the time over time I would notice, wow, they speak poorly about everyone. They have a horrible story to tell about everyone. Everyone who's not in the room right now and and like and and there was always like this. They're always the victim. Everything is always being done to them and everyone else is a terrible person. But we right now the listeners are are in in the in the club.
But I have a feeling that if I leave the club temporarily, I'm probably one of those people that are not. Yeah. Very interesting.
>> Yeah. It's a pretty fascinating thing about friendships or even partnerships I suppose that like with you and Stacy, two of you know the closest people to me, you never talk [ __ ] about anyone.
Stacy and you never talk [ __ ] about anybody. Like weirdly so. Sometimes I'll talk [ __ ] and you and Stacy will be like, "Well, I don't know." Or he'll just not participate. Most people aren't like that. You know, I I would like to think I'm not a [ __ ] talker. I I I'm above average in the good zone, I would say. But you and Stacy are like you have a disorder or something. [laughter] I I don't know what's going on with you. But the side effect is I'm pretty sure you don't talk [ __ ] about me when I'm not around.
>> You're the only one I talk to.
[laughter] >> Yeah. And so, uh, it provides this security, this trust, right? that it's just like uh I know that you got my back, you know, and you look on the bright side. Now, do you and Stacy also let too much um wash off your back or you put do you put yourself on the back burner?
>> Yeah. But I also know that you and Stacy are happy people that that live. You're not like Bob where you're putting yourself on the back burner >> to that extent, you Well, and look, I so okay, I have a relative who I love love this relative dearly, dearly, dearly.
And this relative talks trash constantly about everyone. It's a little different than than the other situation I was talking about. But it is not too different because every time I talk to them, there is some new horrible story that is happening with someone in the family. It's usually someone else in the family and I'm always like, "Oh, oh, really? They said that? Oh, that's" and it's kind of uncanny how every like and this happens to this person constantly.
And I'm like, "Wait, they did that? That sounds terrible." And these are people that I know and I'm always like, "Really?" Uh, and it might all be true.
It might all be accurate, but it it is really interesting that it's like she she Yeah. is um what do you call it? a a a siphon or um an a magnet for these kinds of situations.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think that is one angle. Another is that everything's just filtered through that and they need it to be true or something along those lines. I don't know.
>> But yeah, I I think that uh uh another aspect to this is with you and Stacy, I think there's a bit of looking the other way sometimes. So it the the the one minor con which I would say is about this is that >> when the rare moments when I'm just like okay like I I'm not crazy right like this person in our life is doing this thing >> and I'll go to the two of you and you'll just be like huh >> just you wouldn't have even se we'll be in the same room together >> and like three bullet points will occur and they will be so obvious that I'll log them then I'll go to you and you'll be like, I didn't see that. And I'm just like, how did you not see that? And I think that the so that is I and I it's happened enough times I think it's a bit of a con in that you have a filter that you like purposely or unconsciously purposely like filter out things that would create negativity. Now, maybe that's an overall good thing. I don't know.
>> No, it is a survival technique, but you're right. I mean, as you know, it has affected me negatively in times where at the very least when things were directed negatively at me and I was sort of like, well, you know, if I look at it the other way and it took a lot and your help in some cases to be like, okay, that's not good, [laughter] >> right?
>> Yeah. So, I could totally see that it it definitely well and for me uh in the way I grew up and the situations I dealt with, I that was a really useful technique because what I would hear all around me is people bad mouthing the system, other family members, other people, right? Like anywhere from my dad badmouthing my mom or at the very least my mom's husband all the time, right?
and uh other people badmouthing other me family members. uh my dad badmouthing everyone on TV and everyone in the system and stuff and and so yeah maybe for me it was I I developed a thing where it's like well I'm I don't want to spend my energy doing that I guess and the the downside of going that direction is that it works great in general for what it does and I can be blind or maybe even not necessarily blind but I can be inert or not take action when I should take action. sometimes.
>> Yeah, I don't think I ever thought about it till now. But I think the key is if you have healthy relationships around you, good people around you, then it doesn't uh create a problem if you don't see the few bad things around you, right? It only becomes a problem is if you have a lot of bad things around you, right?
>> And you don't notice them or note them.
And and but when I think about your life and Stacy's life, uh I can't think of any relationship where I'm just like, oh my god, they are ignoring this glaring problem. Now, maybe that's me, you know, is the thing cuz I'm the common denominator here, [laughter] you know, and like maybe it's like, well, the only reason why the two of you are close to me is because you overlook all my stupid stupid [ __ ] you know? I don't know.
that that's the question, you know, if if if your two closest people in your life are the nicest people in the world, what does that say about you? You know, [laughter] anyway, uh I don't I don't think that's true.
>> Well, okay. So, um, two two things that happened to me as I was growing up and actually my my dear friend Ron, rest in peace, I I slowly over the years learned something from him because, you know, we'd go out to a restaurant or a place or whatever. And he was the kind of person that when something wasn't right, he would bring it up very directly, not rudely, just very directly. But to me, it always felt stressful and confrontational. and why why why does it matter just yeah the soup was cold or yeah they didn't bring you the right appetizer it doesn't matter let's just move on with our lives he never stood for anything like that and again it wasn't like he was some hard ass that was like always complaining no he just this is what I ordered this is not what is this soup was bad this thing was the and uh okay and I also have a relative my aunt Tiamari whom you've met I in Colombia and she is my mom's younger sister and I actually now have a saying it's like what would the Amari do? And I use that in my life because she doesn't put up with things that she shouldn't put up with. And I've always known that about her. And uh as an example, a few years ago, I was in Colombia and my passport had expired, my Colombian passport. And they weren't going to let me out of the country without an up-to-date passport. Well, as you may or may not imagine, renewing your passport in Colombia is not straightforward.
If I hadn't had the on my corner, not accepting nos for answers, I would still be stuck in Colombia right now. And I just it's just awesome to watch her.
She's never rude. She's never like she's she's not cheating. She's not but she goes up to people and she says, "Here's what the situation is. We need help with this." And when they say no, she goes to the other person and she's and she tries. And sometimes it doesn't work, but a lot of times it does because of that attitude of like I'm not going to sit here and just pass out and die.
That is something that I'm as I'm getting older, I'm getting a little bit of that. But man, it's been hard for me because my default is like it's okay.
It's okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because with Stacy, she has a similar issue. And when push does come to shove and and I generally don't say much in situations like that either, but I'm much more prone to do so. Far greater more prone to do so than than Stacy is and maybe you.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I I'm generally just not bothered by Well, should I say that? Um there are when when I'm bothered by something, I'm really bothered by it. But generally speaking, I don't really get bothered by that. I don't know if my wife would agree with that statement now that I said it out loud, but anyway, uh to the point where Stacy will uh if I know that I'm going to have to talk to someone about something like a contractor or something, I purposely don't have Stacy there with me because I think the anxiety is so great that she has to like run interference.
>> Sure. And I would like to think that at least half the time there's no interference necessary because the person I'm talking to is fine with the feedback. You know what I mean? Like they might even want the feedback, but the feedback mechanism is so anxietyprovoking. Now, I I should absolutely say that if she were here, my wife, she would say, "Well, you know, Kirk, you do need interference cuz you you you know, like [laughter] just just as an example, we love this one French bakery downtown Beltown called Pianne, and they recently uh renovated, but anyway, that's not the point. They uh this one, we go there all the time, and there there's one time we went there, >> and right away I noticed that the music was different and louder.
[clears throat] Usually they always play French music. They probably some French Pandora or something you know >> and you know it's quiet enough and the songs are pleasant enough you know there's a certain >> and so uh uh but this one but this time we went in and it was super [ __ ] loud. Okay.
>> Like beyond loud >> really.
>> And it was this It was it was like a a a terrible >> like live version of this song. It wasn't opera but it was like an opera kind of guy or something and it was I don't know what it is about music in restaurants and stuff but when it's off like I can't think straight.
>> Yeah. It's not the good right. It's not the right ambiance, you know.
>> But most people can think straight. Like my wife apparently she can think straight. But my wife also doesn't even notice music half the time. I'll hear the this, you know, they'll be the sound the Pandora will be playing and I can barely hear it. I'll hear half of a second of a drum beat and I'll be like, "Oh, that's Madonna." Or I'll like I don't need to hear much to and I'll be like, "Oh, that's funny."
or I'll compliment some people on their oh it's like oh you had a great Pandora mix today or something you know you played the strokes and you know and um so you know I'm hyperfixated to some extent on it >> but um but anyway so we're sitting down and I'm I'm so [ __ ] bothered cuz it was so loud >> and I just declared loudly that I was like I started mocking the song in the middle of this French bakery. I was just like And and my, you know, I was I was being a bit of a dick, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> But I'm also like, well, if you're going to be a dick by playing music that that's [ __ ] obnoxiously loud, >> then then I have the right to just also play along with that, right? You know what I mean?
>> And then they're like, "This is my late grandfather's.
>> I don't give a [ __ ] [laughter] I don't care. It's not necessary.
>> He did it as an homage to the war and all the victims. You know, I if if you if you had a pile of [ __ ] in the middle of the of the bakery and someone said pew, that's okay, right? And I I consider sound pollution to absolutely be on that on that level, you know what I mean?
>> And Stacy's like, you know, kicking me out of the like, stop it, you know, and and I'm just like my god, that music cuz I'm I'm literally hoping one of the bus boys will hear me and like turn turn the [ __ ] >> So, you're being passive aggressive.
[laughter] >> Well, yes, absolutely. But I'm also so like unnerved by it, you know? It's it's like I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, eventually I think I literally told someone I was like, "Can you turn down the music?" I have no problem doing that to people, by the way, >> because I guarantee there are other people in the restaurant that cuz no one no one's like, "You know what? I wish the music was louder." No one ever says that, right?
>> I wish the music you know what I So, I have gotten like like I said in my older years, I've gotten very comfortable uh doing thing. Now, one thing I've always been very actually able to do, even when I was a teenager, is if there's a clear moment of injustice, like I I don't I don't mind stepping in. I want to step in. But I'm talking about with things that are lower stakes, I was always like avoidant, avoidant, avoidant. Nowadays, like just the other day, we're in the theater. There is a young couple, a guy and a and a gal. They're watching the movie and during the previews, they're talking pretty loudly. They're laughing.
Okay, no problem. movie starts. Movie kind of gets quiet. They're still doing it.
I give it 30 seconds because they're, you know, not realize the movie is starting. And it was during um the movie with uh you know, the space one, the the the recent one for all my no uh the football thing.
>> Hail Mary.
>> Hail Mary. Yeah. Project Hail Mary. And I'm like it start. So I I I look over.
I'm like, "Hey, keep keep it down, please." You know? Uh and oh, okay. But they could have reacted negatively, right? I would have never done that. So, I've gone like that because again, I think in my mind either what would Ron do or what would Piamati do, right?
>> But it definitely is a kind of thing where for most of my life I'd be like gh so annoyed right now, but I'm not going to do anything about it.
>> Did I tell you about the guy sitting behind me at The Whiz when we saw that musical?
>> When we saw The Whiz?
>> Yeah.
>> I don't think so.
>> So, I took you to The Whiz for your birthday, >> right? the musical that Michael Jackson and Yeah.
>> and Diane um what's her name?
>> Warwick or Warick.
>> Um anyway, who cares? Point is is that we're sitting there and >> Ross Diana Ross.
>> Yeah. And in the uh behind me, this guy was repeatedly kicking my chair.
>> Oh.
>> Hard. Like just like a nervous habit of tapping his foot.
>> So annoying. And I'm thinking, you know, and and I'm my was it tapping >> my body was moving.
>> Oh boy.
>> Like I I with every foot movement that he was doing on the back cuz you know these are really old theater seats.
>> I thought you were ri rhythmically moving to the >> I think he was actually going to the beat now that I think about it.
>> And I I was my whole body was swaying with it about half the time that he was doing it. [snorts] And at first, you know, I'm like, this isn't we're about halfway through. This isn't going to work, you know, >> and so I'm like, this is going to stop.
Obviously, you know, people have people have sensed to know that they shouldn't be kicking the chair in front of them.
Like, people understand that, right?
>> It it it continues. And so, I I So, I'm like, okay, this is going to ruin my experience. So, >> that's all you're going to be able to think about. So, I'm I'm going to I'm I'm going to do I'm going to I'm going to do, you know, step one, which is I'm going to look over my shoulder like I'm like, "What's happening to my seat?" You know that move where you're like, "Oh, what's going on with my seat back there?" And then some, "Oh [ __ ] he's probably looking at his seat cuz I'm doing Okay, I'm not going to do >> that. Didn't stop me." Oh, >> in the least.
>> Then take a hint.
>> Then I look with more of an angle, you know, instead of just glancing over my shoulder, I really kind of turn around.
He keeps going and then I I keep I I I keep escalating this, you know? I I I I like really look another time and then I like kind of sit up a little bit and I look down eventually. I'm not even joking, bro.
>> I turn around and grab his foot. I I didn't grab, but I put my hand on his foot and I sort of pushed it away cuz this is after >> 45 minutes of me doing various different things.
>> Yeah. And you know, like I said, I'm pretty easygoing. Like when this sort of stuff happens to Stacy, >> it really it really Well, no, it kind of drives her nuts. Like when like >> um I guess this doesn't really fit the model that I was saying, but when we're in a movie theater and there's someone like making noise, like >> it it'll kind of get under her skin.
Whereas to me, I'm just like, >> will she say something?
>> Not in the moment. No, no, no, no, no, no. Um but uh but for me I uh tend to just say well it's just kind of how you look at it. If you're like well I'm in public and so you know people are going to do stuff or another thing that I try to do is I say what if this was my grandma >> right >> you know that was doing this I would sort of say well you know just grandma and it's not because having someone tap their foot on my chair isn't like they're smacking me across the head. You know what I mean? So, you know, there there's ways of looking at it. So, this is after a long time of me doing that kind of trickery and and all this different signal. Eventually, I'm putting my hand on his foot.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And and gently sort of pushing it away from the chair and I'm looking at him in the eye.
>> And he's what age? Like >> he's elderly.
>> Okay.
>> I don't know how elderly.
>> So, you're abusing an elderly man.
[laughter] Oh my god.
>> Maybe 65 70 >> breaking his leg.
>> And that didn't stop it, Berto. Oh no.
>> No.
>> What?
>> So then you think, >> "Oh no, >> what's going on here?"
>> Maybe it's something not quite working.
>> Or he's hostile.
>> It could be. Yeah.
>> He He didn't know. He didn't look like he had a tremor, if that's what you're saying.
>> Yeah.
>> Plus, if you have a tremor, like you don't have to put your foot directly on the back of my chair. You know what I mean?
>> Maybe he was trying to.
>> And I want to emphasize I was swaying.
My whole body was going into it back and forth. [laughter] >> Anyway, >> but okay. So, >> but but but that when we left the theater, >> I never said anything about it.
>> Okay.
>> You know that because I didn't it doesn't really get to me like as soon as we were done, >> it was over and we and we had a good time at in that moment.
>> I didn't go like, "Oh my god, you wouldn't believe what happened to me."
cuz you know it's just like >> so that's the kind of thing that I always saw Ron immediat like this happened multiple times in theaters where he'd be like can you please stop that like very directly and at the time I was always mortified I'm like and not even because you would think it's like in this culture like what if they have a gun it wasn't even that my brain didn't even get to that step it was like why are you saying anything just you live with the life you're handed you you keep quiet that's it uh whereas yeah nowadays I just don't uh the The worst one that happened to me in the last few years, which I actually do recognize was a little too risky the way I handled it. I told you about this. I was, I think, at a Depode concert. And look, I'm not one of these people that that films the whole thing.
>> You You told this whole story.
>> So, the abbreviated version, I don't I'm not one of these people that films the whole thing, but I had my phone out. All of a sudden, I see from behind me, someone reaches in with their phone and shines their flashlight in my eyes, which I immediately assume is that, oh [ __ ] someone I know is right behind me cuz who else would do such an aggressive? So, I think it's like you or I'm like, it's not someone I know. So, then the rest of the concert, I decide I'm not going to let this dra detract.
So, I enjoy the concert and nothing else happens for the rest of the concert. But as soon as the concert is done and the lights come out, I turn around and I yell at this person. I'm like, "What the [ __ ] is your problem?" Now, unfortunately, initially, I yelled at the wrong person cuz he's like, "I don't know. It's this, you know." So, then I look at that guy. I'm like, "What is the" And the guy was super aggressive.
He was maybe my age, a little older he looked, but not much older, but And my wife is trying to calm me down, which I think is the right thing for her to do because again, you don't know in this culture what the guy's going to do. But then what happens is the guy's girlfriend starts saying stuff and then my wife starts going in. So now the whole thing is kind of becoming a mess.
Uh and then eventually it it died down.
But uh but it's one of those things where in my previous life I would have just not said anything, you know, and I now I think in that case maybe I was too aggressive and all that. Well, so you kind of did you kind of had a I you can tell me that I'm full of [ __ ] or barking up the wrong tree, but with the uh story that you told about the He-Man movie thing, you had a similar story beat where you were saying, "Okay, I I was getting a little riled up, but then I said, "Hey, I'm going to let it go." And then I let it go and I was fine. And then as soon as the movie was over, I [ __ ] exploded on it. So obviously you weren't letting it go, >> right? That's true. That's true. you know, and so being like Ron >> might be the answer because you're saying something >> in the moment >> quicker than letting it build.
>> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.
>> Anyway, getting back to the email. So, she's saying this, you know, dance mom was sweet, but then talks endless [ __ ] and always makes herself out to be the victim. And after hangout, patron feels, uh, Nicole, but you keep the H silent, which is really confusing. I mean, why have the H to begin with?
>> Yeah, hometo. [laughter] >> Um, you feel drained, manipulated. All right. A lot of things took place that led to my decision to break up with her.
But the kicker was that my daughter and her daughter weren't becoming as close as she wanted. And my daughter was spending time with a variety of other kids, including kids she hated. By the way, I included I I sorry, I continued to spend time with her because I really felt there was no way for me to distance myself. So, just chiming in. I'm guessing it's just like, well, we're stuck here on the sidelines of >> dance class. And if I just like don't sit with her, >> that would be so weird and awkward. Do you know what I mean? which I get, which is why you should never become dance moms until you get to know them well enough to know that they're not crazy.
Anyway, my small daughter had a birthday and my friend did not acknowledge it for the second year in a row. Oh my god. So, this dance mom relationship is going on for a long time.
>> Uh, after over a year of supporting her and her child both emotionally and physically, I decided that she wasn't the friend for me. So, I just stopped reaching out. But my problem is I want to be honest and direct with her about why I don't want to be friends because I feel that's what she deserves.
Uh just by uh chiming in. I think what she I'm guessing what she means by deserves is like she deserves the truth and not the disrespect of me just >> Yes.
>> blowing off. Yeah.
>> Uh instead of she deserves to be told off. I don't think she >> No. No. That's not what >> I just know based on our experience that she will not own her behavior or validate my experience. Do you think it's necessary to reach out? If so, how how would you do it? End of. Yeah. So, what she's saying is like I feel like it's dishonest or disrespectful to just drift away or make an excuse.
But if I told her she's just, you know, given how she talks to other people about other people, >> she's only going to narrativize this as I'm an [ __ ] >> right?
>> And you know, so what's the point in telling her the truth if she's just going to distort what I tell her, no matter how dip diplomatic I am? So Alberto, what do you think?
>> Yeah, this is a tough one. Uh, so I have I am of two minds. one having been the jerk who in high school ghosted one of my girlfriends uh who I had been dating for a summer and then stopped taking their calls and never gave a reason and I was that person and how horrible that was and how >> Oh, I see what you're right. So, you're saying you know what it's like to just >> I know what it's like to be the person who's just like ghosts someone else and then runs into them a year later and is having to confront just what a big jerk I was and how what a wimp and a like just yeah how how I didn't have the the balls to just be like hi I don't want to date you anymore and it sucks and it's painful but I'm going to let you know that right so that at least there's some closure rather than why are my calls not being answered Right. Okay. Well, that's one side. The other side though is what to say and and how. Right. Because it is painful to say something to like meaning it if someone tells me, hey, and I'm being very direct with you so that you don't wonder why I didn't return your calls. You're a bad person to hang out with and your personality sucks and blah blah. Like when I was a when I was a teen or uh yeah a teen in Colombia before I moved up here, one day this one girl in the class who I was friends with says to me, uh why can't you have a personality like this other guy? And she didn't mean why can't your personality be like this other guy's personality.
She was saying that I didn't have a personality. And I was like >> which I just have to say I'm Was was she deaf and blind? [laughter] >> Right. But >> because how I mean of all the negative qualities, having a personality, >> I think what probably was meant was that the things I was into didn't interest her at all and I was probably boring to her. Who knows? But what I will say is that >> I can't imagine you being boring to anyone. I can imagine someone not liking you. I can imagine someone not being into the things you're in. I can I can never imagine anyone saying you were boring, >> right? But it hurt, right? It hurt to hear that. So I know. So >> right. So she could have even if that was true in quotes for her, she could have easily worded that like, well, what do you think would have been?
>> Okay. So that that's kind of what I'm getting at. It's like, so I'm going to invent right now the situation where I actually don't want to spend more time with someone else, not even romantically, just like maybe a friend.
And and I I know that there are reasons that are there that I'm really frustrated about, but that if I said them as directly as possible, they will be hurtful, right? So maybe what I would choose to do would be to say something where it is half and half where I say, "Hey, I I feel that in some ways we've been drifting apart." Uh and then put a little bit on me. It's like, you know, maybe it's me. I'm I'm going through this that the other thing. At the same time, I also did not appreciate that you did this, that, and the other thing.
Right? And having a conversation like that is still going to be difficult and painful. And and also could open the door for them to be like, "Wait, I didn't realize that. Hold on. I still want this friendship. Can we talk about this?" Right? But I think that that's better than both I'm not even going to tell them anything or I'm just going to tell them how horrible of a person they are. Like I feel like there's an in between and I'm not great at it, but I like to do it.
>> I think that's the point that I want to make is that there's no way to be good at it because you're in a bad situation because someone's being an [ __ ] >> So it's not your fault if you're like, I don't know what to do or whatever you do do that there would be some negative consequence like you would hurt their feelings or you're kind of forced to lie. uh or not forced, but you know, of the lesser evils, you choose to essentially lie by omission or something or just straight up lie, >> right?
>> And it's unfair to put blame on the person or to hold them up to some sort of, you know, it it it'd be like if someone, you know, in an extreme example, someone has a gun to your head and says, "I need you to say something positive about me or else, right?" and you lie and you say, "Oh, I love your cologne." Even >> the way you hold a gun.
>> Yeah. And and you hate their cologne.
>> You're lying to that person, but under the circumstances, it's like, well, you know, they got a gun to you.
>> And to a much lesser extent, but on that spectrum is when you have a friend, so to speak, who is toxic and is constantly talking [ __ ] about everyone else and will talk [ __ ] about you and is probably talking [ __ ] about you.
>> Yeah. and is creating all this toxicity and is, you know, making you feel manipulated and also treating you horribly, forgets your kid's birthday two years in a row, just completely disregards the whole thing. You're being treated horribly. And you know, we also know that this person came from trauma, right?
>> So, you know, it's not their fault, but you know, you're not their therapist.
And uh uh so whatever you do, it's worth considering. And just know that none of them are going to feel like that. And often people will privilege being honest because we learn in kindergarten you're supposed to be honest. And yes, that's true. But that has its own uh complications. So what I will say to you, Nicole, without an H being pronounced is the following. This is what I would do. And again, you know, I'm not telling you this is what you're supposed to do, but this is what I I I would drift away and not say anything about the truth about the matter. Why?
Sounds like you're stuck with this person being kind of being in your life.
It's, you know, typically dance classes last years, right? This has already lasted a couple years. You're probably going to see her. You're going to bump into her. If you just flat out or even just tell her a version of the diplomatic truth, given how toxic this woman is, God knows what she would end up doing.
She could target you with all sorts of [ __ ] She could start making [ __ ] up about you. She could hurt your hurt your kid or something. She could turn people against you. At the very least, she could just be super hostile when you meet up with her. Who knows? Uh, now this is my style and and I'm a little bit avoidant with this sort of thing, you know? Yeah. Like with the music in a in my favorite French bakery, >> I'm not, you know, I want that to I I really like it when we go to that French bakery. I'm protected. If it was a random McDonald's, I would be less worried because I'm like, well, I'll just never come back to this McDonald's, I guess, because their Pandora station sucks.
>> But I I Stacy and I love this French bakery. And so if something's off, it's just like no, like don't do this. Like this needs to stop.
>> And so um you know, uh in those situations, I'm going to say something.
But in most situations, I don't say [ __ ] I don't reach behind me. I mean that again reaching me. Uh, normally like when we saw uh Mandalorian and Grou, uh, there was someone behind me that kept kicking my chair and I did the thing where I sort of looked behind me a little bit, but uh, after a while I just stopped. I just was like, I'll just deal with it, you know, which I just have to say, people >> understand that the seat in front of you is connected to the person sitting in that [ __ ] chair. the more you know.
>> It's not like kicking the chair and it's like a wall, right? Like you kick a wall, if someone's sitting on the other side of that wall, they're, you know, not >> they're still going to feel it, by the way.
>> Well, they might, but you know, it's especially you uh theater chairs, they rock back and forth every every ounce of, >> you know, pressure you put on. Anyway, so um >> absolutely.
>> So, uh I don't normally do anything. And in a situation like this, I would also uh avoid, but I would conclude in a calm way that this was the best thing really for everyone, including the other person, because as you said, Nicole, that you don't pronounce the H. This isn't going to get through to her. You know, what's the chance given her issues that she's going to go, "Oh, you know what? I'm going to do some real soularching." No, it's not likely. It's probably just going to be yet. She's probably done this to dozens, hundreds of people. And you doing it, you telling her the truth is just going to be another example of that in all likelihood.
>> I guess it depends. I see [clears throat] what you're saying. I to me it depends on the nature of the of the relationship because when I think of the situation that I was in years ago that you are aware of with someone that I was uh collaborating with, um I don't believe that what I should have done nor I Yeah. Like I I don't think it would have worked well to like cancel the appointment, not say why, and then sort of like pretend like we were not going to meet up again or like just that wouldn't have worked with that dynamic, right? Like so that was different to say something.
>> Well, that was different because he was >> a very close >> Yeah.
>> years and years and years long friend.
This is an basically kind of an acquaintance that she sees at the dance mom situation. You know what I mean? So, um, now having said that, you said an interesting phrase. You said, "I don't think it would have worked well."
>> Yeah.
>> Well, the I know this situation forwards backwards cuz I was there doing all the things, you know, and I can tell you that there was no easy answer to that question. And if you did just kind of drift away and not cuz, you know, we ended up telling him.
>> Yeah. And if you hadn't done that, would the outcome have been any different really for any for anyone >> potentially? But personally, I actually liked >> Yeah.
>> that I was able to to say what was wrong for me, you know?
>> Yeah. But also uh you weren't having to see him >> uh all the time. Like >> that's true that that it wasn't a thing where it's like and then we awkwardly still have to see each other every day for some other reason. Yeah. Now, we did see each other often and there anyway, but uh so, uh I want to give you an analogy situation where I and I've talked about this in the podcast before, but I think it bears worth repeating that I went to work at the university for like 4 hours and I uh so I left home. You remember the home the house I lived in with uh in Lake City, Seattle?
Anyway, have I told you the story before?
>> Uh, maybe. But >> anyway, so I I left uh the to work to go to the university and 4 hours I come back home. When I got back home at like noon or something, >> the neighbors that lived on the other side Yeah. They're on the other side of the tree.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I I pull up and they have cut every branch off of the tree from about like I don't know 6 7 8 ft down. And this was uh my I loved this cedar tree and it had these sweeping uh branches that were touching the ground. You know, a lot of cedar trees don't necessarily do that.
And I bought this house half because of the trees.
>> I love trees. I grew up among trees. I climbed trees. I am a tree hugger.
>> And in Seattle, it's kind of hard to find a house that has a lot of trees. My current house I live in is surrounded by tall ass trees, you know?
>> Yep.
>> And I love that. And so when I pull up to the house and they've cut all these branches off the trees, I'm like, >> "What did you I mean, it was it felt like >> I don't know like cuz that can't be undone. You can't just reattach." No.
>> And and so it's not even going to grow back because trees don't do that with their lower branches anyway. So, I'm like, "What?" So, I I get out of my car and I'm like, "What's going on?" And they explain to me that uh for the last couple months, they've noticed that someone has been stealing food out of their outdoor fridge that's on their back porch, but you know, whatever. And yeah, I get that. That would be distressing. And this is before everyone had like cameras and stuff.
>> And so, they would notice stuff would be gone in the in the morning. And yeah, I I get that's pretty stressed out.
Stressful. And they were really trying to It turns out that the culprit was sleeping in my tree.
>> Uhhuh.
>> He had a little campsite in a sense.
Yeah. He had like a a blanket or something. And from clues, I think he would sleep there at night and during the day he would uh walk somewhere to panhandle or something, you So instead of them telling you this and you handling it in some way, >> right? So they wanted to eliminate his hiding spot.
>> And to be very clear, it was very clear that this tree was on my property. It was in my property. That's unbelievable.
They had a fence that defined their property and my tree was on, you know, several feet into my property. Anyway, and so as they explained it to me, I'm thinking like you, why wouldn't you wait for me? And two, what gives you the [ __ ] right to do this? And >> unbelievable >> of all the like there's so many other solutions to this problem. And believe me, if you had told me, I would have taken care of it. He was sleeping in my tree in my yard.
>> In your yard.
>> I had a a vagrant sleeping in my yard.
That would freak the [ __ ] out of me.
>> And think about the irony of what they were trying to solve. They were feeling invaded.
>> Yeah.
>> Their solution was >> Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> And so in a split second I, you know, started down a road in my mind of, you know, addressing it in some kind of direct way, being honest, being truthful.
>> Yeah.
>> Because I'm in the right.
>> They they committed a crime. There's probably like a misdemeanor here somewhere or something, you know.
>> And I saw the road before me, you know, I could see the alternative universes branching off.
>> Yeah.
>> And then I said, none of that is going to result in a happier version of me in the future because I'm going to be living next to a neighbor that I am going to be at war with in some or at least bad blood. Every time I see them, when I drive, every time I see them over the fence, >> there's going to be known bad blood or there's one other Doctor Strange direction where we can save the universe. And I said, that is for me to say, thank you so much for taking care of this because nothing's bringing back these branches and there's no legal result from this that's going to feel satisfying. And there probably isn't really a legal result anyway. Like what do I take him to small claims for a tree? It probably there's probably like no recourse. I don't know. But I lied and said, "Thanks for doing that." Uh, you know, uh, I'm sorry that happened.
And they looked at me and and we were friends. And every time I saw them, I had this streak of like, you [ __ ] But I never felt uncomfortable around them.
I never felt daggers coming out or I suspected daggers come you know because that's the other thing it's like even if they are nice to you it's like well are they secretly because there are many universes in the future and the one that is the happiest me and it and I was completely happy you know a week later a month later today I don't look back and say h I wish I would have blasted them no I I want to be comfortable in my life so for you Nicole when you're at this is just me. This, you know, take it or leave it that I would say I want to feel comfortable with my kid at at this dance class. I want to be comfortable I want to be comfortable running into her. I want to be comfortable when we're all in a circle talking. I want to be comfortable when I'm driving to dance class. I want to be comfortable when sitting in dance class. I want to be comfortable when we both get invited to the same birthday party. I want I personally want to be comfortable and I want my kid to be comfortable.
There is one path toward that and that is to not be honest about it. You know, because even if you had a sitdown with her, you predict Nicole and given your description, it seems like likely a s that even if you went to therapy for like even a couple years with this woman, in all likelihood it would not end well and she would be bitter and there would be this huge risk and even if nothing bad happened, you'd always wonder is, you know, what's going to happen? Whereas if you just ghost in a sense and and and you're not a dick about it, but you're just like, you know, you just slowly start um edging yourself away. And that might mean you have to stay kind of friends for a while where you're acting. And then, you know, and again, for the listeners like, Kirk, I thought you're all about honesty.
When someone crosses a line like someone's got a gun to your head, then to me that uh the lying or the deception is completely justified in my mind. This is far from that. But you have an you have a jerk face that is a jerk and makes you feel drained, makes you and is manipulative and talks endless [ __ ] about other people. It's like really negative to me. that person crossed the line and therefore self-preservation uh takes a higher priority than dignity or truth or giving them the quote unquote respect.
Now the other side of it additionally is that if you were to be respectfully truthful to her, is she a better version a year from now because of that? Whereas if you deceive her by slowly drifting away, which version of her a year from now is better off? You know, in all likelihood, the slowly drifting away version of her is better off. She's slightly happier as a person because, you know, she just transfers her attachment. She starts bitching about everyone else to someone else. You know what I mean? So that's my thoughts on that. So, what would you do? Although you wouldn't know in this scenario, imagine I use my Delorean to show up right as you're going back into your house. You don't see the Delorean cuz you're you're like seeing red and sure pissed. So, you go in the house, I show up and I walk kind calmly up to them and I say, "Hey, I just can I talk to you guys for a second? I am Kirk's friend, your neighbor. And I just want you to know that although he just said thank you. This tree meant a lot to him.
It was very special. He grew up in a place that had a lot of trees, this this symbolizes his childhood, his family home, and he actually really appreciated how these branches were. Now, of course, he would have been horrified to find out that someone was using his precious tree in his yard as home. And it would have been really amazing if you had come with to him with that information and he would have absolutely taken care of it.
Maybe in the same way as you did, but understand that you you have done something that's very hurtful and it wasn't to something that you own.
So that's all I wanted you to know. So to do what what you will with that information and then I would have pieced out in my Delorean.
>> Well, and nice for you that you don't have to >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Uh but but I guess the reason I'm saying that is because how the hell are you in that moment supposed to have that wisdom and Yodaess to have such a conversation that might still result in a bad interaction. Right.
>> Right.
>> I'm doing it because I'm the third party observer who has the benefit of hindsight and sort of omniscience and p personal peace. But I wish I guess I wish I could do that in general.
[laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. And in that scenario, maybe it's a little different because >> I didn't know the neighbors well enough to know for sure if that would backfire automatically.
>> Uh but yeah, I mean I appreciate your point and your role playing was exactly what I tend to roleplay when I'm reacting to reality TV. I'll I'll say like uh you know there's a mature differentiated way to be assertive and you you know it's not a matter of slinking away or being hostile you know there's another way and and you exhibited that perfectly and as you were saying it I was like yeah I mean that that could have worked but I don't care about my relationship with those neighbors you know whereas you cared about your relationship with the guy that we we were talking about >> so um if you could change him and your relationship. It was worth >> right the >> there's less to preserve in the other case. Yeah.
>> Whereas with my neighbors, I I didn't I had no friendship with them. They were neighbors that I would wave to and we had a good enough relationship. So if I didn't cuz you know the the hope response from them would be like, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I mean, what's done is done, right?" I wouldn't want money or anything. I would just but but again even okay but if I had a relationship with them I would want them to know that they hurt me because >> there would be a consequence for both of us if they were friends of mine because I wouldn't feel good about being friends with them moving forward or there would always be a fly in the ointment >> right >> with neighbors that I have no relationship with what is the different future there isn't a different future because I'm not friends with them >> with and maybe that's maybe the key point is like it's not about lying or drifting away or confronting or even being extremely differentiated and very mature in the way that you role played it. You know, one way of calculating a bad situation where there's no easy answer, and this is just me offering one metric or one decision-m flowchart, which is >> assess the options that you have available to you. And the two broadest are you be at least somewhat honest and diplomatically honest with her and you just say, "Hey, I don't want to be friends with you anymore because uh the way that you make me feel or the or the way that you have not really been a good friend, for example, you did this, this and this." So that's one, you know, decision. The other one is to slowly kind of drift away. And uh then you ask yourself okay given each what what what are the possible outcomes from there down the road and make some guesses as the probability right and then you have an idea of a guide to follow right so if you tell her Nicole your friend or this person that you don't want to be friends with anymore if if you are honest and and you're extremely diplomatic and you exhibit well she is wanting to know how to work sober Berto how Would you word this to this other woman?
>> I guess. Yeah. Okay. If I cared, if I had the glimmer of hope that that this is a conversation worth having, because it's possible that after everything you've said, the the the listener would be like, actually, yeah, this is not worth my time. Okay. Right. But assuming that there is that glimmer of like, yeah, this is worth my time. I guess what I would say is I would focus it on the very specific ways in which I have not felt well about the interaction. So I would say um listen I need I need to talk to you. There's a couple of things really bothering me. One of them is and maybe it's just my perception but it feels like in a lot of our interactions revolve around you complaining about other people and that and that's two things. One, it it feels draining honestly. And two, I always worry like, wait, is this what you talk about to others about me? Like, is this just what you say about everyone? And then, you know, that might get interrupted. That might even get derailed right there. But if I had the chance to say the second point, it would be I also was quite hurt that you ignored or forgot or whatever my my kid's birthday like we we blah blah blah blah blah blah, right? And that that was painful to me. So, I I've honestly been thinking of of maybe not spending as much time with you because of those things. And that's what I would do if I if I could get that.
>> You're good at this, Merto. I I I want to compliment you on that cuz my experience is most people, even when they're not emotionally attached, can't even come up with the words and the vibe that you just exhibited off the cuff, which is I think >> it's taken me 51 years.
>> It's it's it's particular Um, okay. So now, Berto, given what we know about the scenario, yeah, >> what are the likely outcomes? And remember, there's a pretty good chance that, >> let's say, once or twice a week for an hour and a half, >> she's going to be in the room with you.
You know what I mean? And she's going to know your kids' friends and D.
>> So, what are the possible outcomes?
Yeah, the possible outcomes are one.
This is only received as confirmation of what she she might have the other person might have already been feeling, which is just like she has about a lot of people, complaints. And so then this turns into like, oh my god, you won't believe what this [ __ ] said to me. And then passive aggressively or even just like, you know, fake wise being like, "Oh, hi. Hey, it's so good to see you.
And then it meanwhile the person starts hearing all these rumors behind their back. Other people start treating her poorly etc. So that's one possibility.
>> And is she better off the this other woman?
>> No. No. In that case it's not.
>> There is a possibility because we don't really know all the detail. Let me you know there is one possibility which is that >> that at least with this relationship the person the other person cares enough to try to address it in some way. that doesn't mean she'll be able to, >> right? And I think I think yeah, that's interesting that you bring I think that is a key distinction and given the way that Nicole is talking about it and I think given Nicole's understanding of personality either innately or based on andor based on this podcast because, you know, she's identifying specific data points that I think only psychologically uh minded intelligent people could identify. Usually just like I just think she's a jerk. But, you know, Nicole's breaking it down by specific things that the chance that this other woman given this description would even for a second entertain this as an opportunity for self-reflection and apologizing or or even just exploration, even if she doesn't initially agree, it doesn't seem very likely. Mhm.
>> So maybe that's another part of the flowchart of just like cuz I think you know with the guy that um you confronted or you you you wanted me there. You kind of forced me to be there when you confronted him and I was just like I don't want to be there and and you're like you're coming with me and I'm like okay and and it was fine in the end but I I was cuz you know you and him were really close friends and I I barely knew the two of you anyway.
>> It it was fine and I was and it ended up turning out okay cuz he apologized down.
So that that's the thing is like in that scenario prior to talking with him about it, you probably on your flowchart knew and it was right that he would be uh willing to look at himself.
>> Mhm.
>> In fact, he completely prostrated himself and said, "Oh my god, you're right. And please let me back."
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm like kicking you out of the table like, "Don't let him back."
[laughter] And and and he's and then you said yes. And I was like, "Fuck." And and and I was like, "It's just a matter of time." Yeah, >> I didn't know that for sure, but >> but it was likely >> and it was and literally like 2 or 3 months later he started in on it again and and he he immediately knew himself to pull himself out of the scenario. He didn't you you didn't have to confront him. He's just like, >> "Okay, >> so I guess it's over now because I basically just broke the tenant that we Anyway, um but the relationship >> which actually is in a way it's a good turn of events, right? Because it's like, okay, we set a boundary, right?
The boundary was crossed, you realized it, and you left. [laughter] >> Well, that's another interesting kind of prediction of the future that if you hadn't been direct, >> then to this day, you might wonder, maybe I didn't give him a chance, right?
>> Whereas you told him directly.
>> Yeah.
>> He totally heard it. He dedicated himself to not doing it. He agreed with it, >> right?
>> And then he [ __ ] it up. So then by that point you're like, well certainly we know this is right that we don't work together >> and we know this for sure because I was honest and you agreed and you tried and you failed and so >> right no one has any question >> at that point I didn't even feel anger because I I mo honestly mostly I felt sad. I was like oh well >> he tried and I guess he can't. Yeah. And I had bonded with him too by that point to some extent. And I I remember >> right >> feeling sad too. But anyway, so that would be another >> part of the equation I suppos. It's interesting, you know, to drill down on this because >> right >> when I first read this email a while back, I thought, well, I I have my answer, which is I would just drift away because similar to the people with my trees, it's just no one wins by me being honest with this person. But as we get into it, it's like there's all these caveats of like, well, it depends, right? Do you think that it's worth it?
Uh because often, like I said, it it often gets broken down to these really uh hard uh I don't know, black and white ways of think. It's like, well, the good person would be honest. Right.
>> Right.
But to me, it's more complicated than that because of I think the good person takes the action where the most people disbenefit the greatest >> or disbenefit the least.
>> You know, uh that you think not only about yourself selfishly, but you also think about the other person and try to figure that all out, you know, >> right? And and I don't disagree with that generally. I I think what it is is as I've gone and I'm you know I'm not saying I do this well but I want to is that there is some gray zone where you where you can still potentially deliver tough messages to people that in in cases where you feel it's even worth it.
>> That's what I'm saying. That's the equation. If it's worth it, then it's worth it. Then stand up and be differentiated. Be mature. Be honest.
But if it's not worth it, if no one's going to win, if if you even think the other person isn't going to win by you being honest, >> then what's the point? Now, if you're married to the person, right, then that's or if you're good friends, but this is kind of like, you know, a dance friend, dance mom friend, it it kind of sounds like you're not hanging out with each other all the time. You know what I mean? You're bumping into him at dance class and you pass the time by being friends.
>> But okay, but I will say, so you're you're right and I think that's right. I will say I wish that you could show up in the Delorean at the Depes Mode concert right near the end before the lights turn on or right as the lights are turning on. You first of all you hug me. Hey man, what's up? Give me a second. And then you turn to the person like, "Hey, listen. This is my friend Ombberto.
>> Why is it me? Why isn't it you?"
>> No, because because we're helping each other.
>> But you're good at this.
>> But we're helping each other. And you were like, "Hey, normally I wouldn't do this, but we had this conversation about this other thing in a different timeline. So now I'm doing it. I'm trying to do what he would have done."
>> And by the way, time travel is a thing.
>> It's a thing. This is my friend Oberto.
And I just want you to know he loves the pes. You love the pesh. I love the pesh.
>> He wasn't filming the whole thing, but you sh you did an aggressive thing. You shine shown your thing and it's really upset about this.
>> Well, actually, you know what I would say?
>> Yeah.
>> It's interesting because you're sort of wording it in your perspective. And I guess you do need me in this.
>> Yeah, I do need you. I would say to him, um, so you know, and somehow I kind of know this situation from you. So this is me knowing the information from your mind actually because I don't know >> what he went through. So I would say to him >> from what you did to Berto, I'm guessing that the way he was filming was bothering you in some way. And believe me, I get that. It [ __ ] annoys me, too.
>> I don't see Berto as normally that sort of guy, but maybe he did. I don't know.
And I'm guessing because I've been in your shoes before that I let it go and I let it go and I let it go and it builds and it builds and I get really angry and then I explode with some extreme behavior. It sounds like something you did along those lines. So maybe the annoyance is okay, but you let it go on too long and it it and uh or you have a particular pet peeve about it or something. And I just want to say it was a total dick move. It's one thing for someone to film a concert and annoy people. It's another thing to put something in someone else's face. That's pretty violating. And then >> for the rest of the concert, he has to sit in front of you wondering what the [ __ ] was going on with that guy and what's going on with him now and what what did I do? And like there was so many other ways. One, you could have just let it go. Two, you could have just tapped on his shoulder. Berto was a nice guy. He would have heard you. So, I just want you to realize that you're a dick in this situation, >> right? And then what happens is he goes, "WHO THE [ __ ] ARE YOU?" And then I turn you like, "So, YOU'RE SIDING WITH THIS ASSHOLE?" And then a big brawl race [laughter] and and then someone else has to show up in another Delorean that is going to help us.
>> Well, no, we we need some sort of uh Depes lyric like I'll be like, "Um, I'm going to be your personal Jesus."
>> It just takes a while to travel from my head to my fist [laughter] >> or uh as I'm like slapping him across the face, I'll be You just can't get enough. You just can't. You just can't get enough. But but then what you could have said is Berto let it take a while to travel from your head to your fist [laughter] or um what's another what was I just I gave you a record today.
>> Yes you did.
>> So instruction time again.
>> So Berto randomly text so if you're a Depes Mode fan this might so uh Berto randomly texts me in the middle of the night one night. He's like I just figured it out my f we weren't talking about Depes Mode. We He's just like, "I just figured out my favorite Depes Mode album is Construction Time Again, which if you are a Depes Mode fan, you kind of know that that would be a weird revelation, particularly given our age."
If we were older, maybe it would. But, uh, Construction Time Again would have been an album that you would have experienced after experiencing other albums that you had experienced that had come out closer to your time, right?
>> Yep. You know, this would have been this would have been going back into their catalog kind of a thing.
>> And early Depes Mode is different than, you know, late later ' 80s and is more angular and raw, more punk in a way. Uh depending you get when you get to the Vince stuff, it gets a little more poppy, but but it's just more it's just Anyway, point is >> by this time they're they're definitely darker.
>> Yeah. But anyway, uh constru construction time again is one of the for you to consider that to be your favorite DM album is one of the hipsteriest thing I've ever heard. I am always saying [ __ ] like that. I'm always like the first two albums, you know, the first three albums the best. The first Strokes albums the best. The rest >> Yeah, you're insufferable. You're like I'll say like I like the Beatles. You're like I only like their cavern days.
[laughter] >> That's funny. That's the one band that no one would ever say. [laughter] Like, no one would ever say, "I only like the early Beatles stuff."
>> That's a good point.
>> That's the one band you would never do that with. [gasps] Probably like the the Stones and stuff, you know, as well.
>> Isn't that that is actually hilarious cuz that was before you would have had Oh, I guess that's the only time that that would have worked is someone that's like I I like them in the cavern when they wore leather. They've sold out.
Okay, that would have worked. [laughter] >> Oh my gosh. Um, yeah. Well, uh, you know, and I'm not I'm not feeling great about my take on this because, and I'm going to have to kind of wrestle with it. I've wrestled with it somewhat before, but hearing your response and actually just hearing myself essentially recommend lying to people, like I don't like that at all. And I just wonder like what would Mr. Rogers do? And you got to figure that he would be honest, right, in a really super sweet way. But I've been So maybe this is part of it. Maybe I am actually dealing from trauma, bad experiences where I was honest with people and it did backfire and I was super cool about it. You know, like I did think about it and think I need to be honest with this person and then I suffer. I end up being worse off and I don't think the other person was better off because of it. Now with friends like you and I, we've confronted each other on all sort we've been at that crossroads. We've had many opportunities and and at times almost kind of did it.
>> Yeah.
>> Or at least temporarily did it where we're like, "Yeah, I'm not going to I'm just going to drift away. I'm not going to address this or or I'm not going to uh be honest with this person. I'm just going to slowly drift away." But because we're friends and we consider it important, then uh the decision is made easier, I suppose. I mean, it's not easy to do, but it gives a clear guideline.
But, you know, with a dance mom friend, I just don't know. Like, it's sort of like, here's another example. I uh where was I recently? I was in a restaurant and the food had something really bad about it. And I had a choice. I could tell the the waiter that, you know, everything was off or something. So, there's a number of different benefits that can come from me being honest. I guess the satisfaction of saying something which wouldn't be that great for me but uh so if this was a restaurant that I frequently went to like the preen and they have the loud music there's a benefit because in the future maybe they'll listen to this feedback and I uh so I'll benefit if I give them that feedback >> they benefit because they know that they might be bothering other people and I want to help >> and other people I might be too passive to say anything >> right and so I want them to to know that you know that sort of thing but let's say I'm never coming back to this restaurant ever again I'm pretty sure of Um, and let's say that also that I I don't think that this is fixable. You know, it it's not the sort of, you know, like it just has to do with the type of food they have or uh or something like that or if I thought that the waiter wasn't going to be nice about it or something, right? So, >> do I uh be honest, you if they ask me, "How was your food?"
>> Do I lie in quotes, but it's actually lying? Do I lie and say everything was fine?
>> Yeah. or am I honest? You know, I it's weird, you know, and generally speaking, honesty is the thing to do. And in that situation, that's a pretty low stakes cuz you're just going to walk out anyway. But actually, I didn't really like it. But I don't know if I'm in a bad mood or I'm a little tired. Do I want to deal with the kind of stress of having to have that conversation when all I have to do is say like it was fine and then walk out of the restaurant? I don't know. I I I I certainly wouldn't fault someone for doing that, >> right?
>> You know what I mean? So, I think okay, so based on everything we've said, I'm going to model my own behavior, but I'm I'm going to first tell you a brief story and then you'll see why I'm doing this. Uh, when I first started dating my now wife, we were in college and I was a freshman. Uh, she was a freshman in a different college. We didn't know each other that well to start with, of course, like one doesn't, right? But one starts talking and having all sorts of conversations. In one of those many conversations, I mentioned to her how much I loved loved John Denver, the musician, you know, and I how much I loved his music, how much it meant to me. And I told her that my my favorite song when I was little, and I still loved it from him, was Rocky Mountain High. So, for my birthday, which was only like probably a month after we had started dating, right? Because I my birthday is January 28th and we had started dating in like December. So, she gets me one of She got me a couple little things. One of the things she gets me is she gets me sheet music for John Denver for Sunshine on My Shoulders.
>> Another classic, >> a great song that I had not heard.
>> It's all about drugs.
>> So, I I'm joking.
>> I get the gift and I I look at I'm like, "It's John Denver, Sunshine on My Shoulders." And she goes, "It's it's your song."
And I I lied. I was like, "Yes, oh my gosh, thank you so much." Because I knew how much it meant. Right. And I actually was really touched that she even remembered it was John Denver. Yeah. And given your wife and given what I know of the way that the two of you have described her back then, given that you've only been dating for a month, >> right? You know, if this was now, then your relationship, you would trust that if you said, "Oh, you know, like a way to be honest about it would be, "Oh my god, >> I love thank you so thoughtful." Um, by the way, you know, my favorite song is, "But I also really love this one as well." You know, like that's way that's the way to do it. But in that state when a month in, you know, you could understand someone going, "Oh [ __ ] I don't know if how do you get honest about something like that?" And not >> It's a little awkward, right? It's >> cuz I think I think the equation is like, >> "Well, if I could download my mind into her mind and she could know for sure that I absolutely love her and appreciate this and it's okay that she made a mistake about John Denver. So, you know, like and yet this is not my favorite song, but I love this gift. And you know, if if I could transfer all those thoughts, >> she know that it's fine.
>> She she'll be okay, >> right?
>> But any any even if I spend an hour explaining to her all of those things, trying to download my mind into her mind, >> I'm pretty sure she is going to not believe what I'm she is going to run in a direction that is going to cause so many problems. She's going to get down on herself. She's going to think that she's a bad gift.
>> She didn't listen. She didn't. Right.
>> Or she's going to start accusing me that I'm lying and and no, I remember you said this other song. You know, I distinctly remember sunshine on my you know it. So again, I I think this is this weird I there's got to be some there's got to be some philosophical school that deals with this kind of thing cuz it has to do with morality, right? But it also has to do with goodness of life for yourself, but also for the other person. You're you're thinking what is what's the best future for the two of us, right?
>> And if lying, >> right, >> which is we're just going to call it that, which I don't like using that word, but let's just >> if lying in this moment, saying yes, this is my favorite song. If a month from now, a year from now, we're better off, >> right?
>> Then I it doesn't matter.
>> I guess lying is the right thing to do, which Mr. Rogers would never say, "I don't like this at all."
>> Well, so now what happened in that moment is although I really tried to play it off, something about I could I I I wasn't acting well enough and she she could tell that something was a little off.
And so she was like, "Wait, is this not is this not the song? Is this not the" And and I I felt kind of I was like, "Ah." So I'm like, "No, no, no. I love John Denver. I think this is this is a I I'm not familiar with this song, but I'm sure it's a and so she did.
>> You weren't familiar with Sunshine?
>> I never heard it. No. How? Because >> how could you be a John Denver song?
>> Because all I knew I knew I knew of his songs and they didn't include Sunshine on my shoulders.
>> Oh, >> because the only reason I even knew him is cuz my mom had sent me a tape with songs. Anyways, but what I made clear to her, but in the moment it it wasn't enough is that, oh, but this is so special. Okay, years went by and I have since reaffirmed over and over how special that was. And I and even just the other day, I told her how defining that was >> that I felt so seen by her in such a short amount of time that the fact that the song was not the right, it didn't matter. In fact, I discovered a song that I now fully love. Okay. So, you know your wife >> even today, >> right?
>> After being married what, 27 years, >> and you got married a while after that point. So, you've been together for 3, >> four years.
>> Do you believe that she understands your mind at this point?
>> In that in that sense, yes.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. So, I want you to keep everything in mind we just discussed when I tell you that the band and I checked that the the album I mentioned was some great reward.
>> No way.
>> I'm doing this live on the air to model my behavior [laughter] and I and I came very close to letting it slide because >> Oh my Okay, people don't understand what's happening right now. [laughter] I gave [clears throat] Berto what I thought to be his favorite album, right?
Berto is now telling me and he he's showing me the text exchange cuz he was he was casually looking at that where [sighs] >> how funny is that?
>> And and and understand that when I opened it, I first saw and I was like it's the Pesh mode and then you said it's the it's your favorite album and I saw and I second guessed myself cuz I was like is that what I told? And then I looked at the back and I'm like, and I was really like puzzled. But then I realized, well, like what I've said, if I could download my mind into his mind right now, he'd understand. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell him >> I'm not friends.
>> No, I know. But but I >> And we are not dating for a while.
>> I know, but I wanted you to know how special this really is to me and that I've never actually owned a Depach vinyl. And that I, by the way, still love this album. But I wish you would have known that I I I don't have >> the energy of a 19-year-old girl that you're dating [laughter] and and I wouldn't be destroying.
>> This is why I'm modeling my own advice.
>> And and plus it's not a useless gift to you. It's still >> No, no, no. Absolutely. And but but the reason I preface that I would even if you didn't say it, I would tell myself it's a thought that counts.
>> Right. Exactly. But I but I was like, >> how funny is that? But I I as we were talking, >> how funny is that? [laughter] >> And as we were talking to it, I decided in my mind, I'm like, you know what? I just can't let this go because >> So this whole time you've been like, uh, yeah, okay, construction time again.
Yeah, that is my thing.
>> I love I love construction time again.
But it but I thought, what if time goes by and one day it comes out and I say and he's like, he checks the thing and he's like, wait a minute, you lied to me.
>> Well, yeah. Okay. So [laughter] that's another calculus, right? that if I am nice and I don't alert, >> right, >> there isn't a huge consequence. It's not like he's then therefore going to get a tattoo that says Berto loves Construction Time Again as as his favorite album and then he's going to have to have it laser removed [laughter] like like there's but there is one bad outcome of of not telling me the truth that you can't identify and that is if I came across it I would know I was lied to.
>> Yeah. And that would bother me and it would have bothered me >> because I now in the category of lies >> it's the kind where I'm like I don't want to hurt his feelings.
>> I wouldn't Yeah. I I but I do and I guess this is another part of the philosophy that needs to be considered is like but but again our context is different from Nicole because Nicole Nicole wishes this person would would fall off the face of the earth. I'm putting that, you know, like if if this person disappears, moves out of town, Nicole will either not care or be happy.
>> So that changes the scenario. But with us, yeah, for sure understand like like I you've given me gifts and I've in the moment said, "Why are you giving me this?"
[laughter] >> And and uh and uh >> the guitar pedal.
>> Yeah. Which ironically I wish I had back cuz I actually sold it or gave it away.
But anyway, um, and uh, uh, know that I know that we love each other enough that it wouldn't matter. And I also know that you don't spend that much time on gifts because I could tell you just went to Guitar Center and just grabbed a bunch of [ __ ] >> Yeah, I didn't use >> which is totally fine, you know, like I I I don't need people to like spend energy.
>> And actually, I don't remember if we discussed this at the time, but it was still remnants of my mother thing, right? like which is the the main thing I need to do is spend money to prove that I care about something right >> and it was not you know what I'm going to think about what they're into like that wasn't part of it right now of course I'm like in the moment shoot well they're into music so I can go do this and if I spend enough on a pedal that will mean I love them right okay I mean it was it was uh the thought that counted >> and it was uh felt as a friend thing >> but I'm also So I don't know the sort of person and I and I know we know we're that I maybe that is interesting that >> with other people other friends of mine I don't know if I would have been honest in the least but I was immediately honest with you about I was like why [laughter] are you getting me that cuz guitar pedals are really personal to someone. You know what I you mentioned that I was like >> there's like you know to to get an overdrive pedal like there are thousands of them >> and I was kind of taking it back because I'm so opposite to that and I to the to the fault.
>> Were you Did I hurt your feelings?
>> Um >> you can be honest.
>> I'm trying to I'm trying to inhabit that moment and what I felt was a mix because part of it is like how does he see through me so easily? [laughter] Right?
Because I'm like because I I couldn't deny that you saw through the fact that this was an impulse last minute thing.
>> Yeah.
>> And I couldn't sit there and be like, are you kidding me? I did the research for months and this. No.
>> So I was like, I was almost annoyed that I'm like, god damn it, how does he know me so well that he saw through me?
>> And to be clear from my memory, I wasn't angry at you.
>> No. No.
>> I was just I was just like, why would you give me >> and you didn't say it in an angry? And at the same time, sure, I was like, but why can't you just say thank you right >> now?
>> I hope I said thank I mean you did. You got me like five things.
>> But I'm saying why can't you just say >> you also got me a Beatles record >> that I still have.
>> Well, but but I'll remind you.
>> And by the way, this is for the listeners, this is like 8 years ago, right? And I remember because you know >> but but remember that at the time you actually were like vinyl cuz at the time you like weren't back into vinyl yet.
>> Okay.
>> But what what the flip side of this whole thing is that as an example recently I think it was for my birthday my brother I hope he's listening to this. I'll tell him in person. He got me uh a gift that I already had and I didn't tell him that I already had it >> because I just wanted him to have the satisfaction of of the surprise.
>> Can you share what it was?
>> Was it a doublesided dildo?
>> No, it is a game a board game that tall Rory had given me already.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. And I'll tell him [sighs and gasps] I just didn't want him to not have the satisfaction cuz cuz it was a thoughtful gift about something that I love that there's no way he would have known that I didn't that I already had it, >> right? I mean, I get I get the impulse, >> right?
>> Because it's neither here nor there, >> right?
>> And it it doesn't really matter, but it does hurt to be the giftgiver >> and to get, you know, it's like, oh, you're nice. That's that's great, but I thought we were closer than that.
>> Right. Right. And that's the part that I'm trying to model and I'm telling myself, you know what, just like I was telling you about, hey, there's maybe a different way. There is a different way.
There's a way where I can trust that you know that I will never speak to you again because you got me there.
[laughter] And this kind of relates in a way to when I am like, you know, uh this is in the past, but I'd be like, are you almost here? And you'd be like, oh, I'm parking.
>> Right.
>> And I and you would arrive 45 minutes later. I'm like, "Well, either it took you 45 minutes to park or or you were lying to me."
>> And I was doing >> You're trying to You're trying to be nice.
>> I'm trying to be nice and not hurt your but but in the process being deceitful and annoying. Right. Yeah. So, actually, that's great that we've brought this full circle because I think as in most cases in psychology, the same trait can be both great and it can be bad. Yeah.
>> Right. And you can loop around and become bad again. and you can look around and there's different styles, but I I >> uh I think that I would like friends, especially really close friends like you to tell me when I have a booger on my face or when I smell bad. Like with you, with your cologne, I told you I didn't like your cologne.
>> If you weren't close to me, I would never tell you anything.
>> I would just deal with it or I'd stop inviting you over to my house or something. But your cologne or the lotion you were using, >> it was Yeah, it was or something >> had the weirdest sort of I don't know what kind of thing they had in it. It was like sandalwood or something. It was >> It's rosemary and and rice. Fermented rice.
>> Fermented rice.
>> But it doesn't to be fair. The fermented rice that the main thing you're smelling I think was chemically rosemary.
Rosemary and chemicals.
>> Yeah. I would smell it 24 hours later in my office.
>> And I will say that Stacy could not smell it. Soird it could be something about me. Anyway, >> right >> point is is that um I very quickly told you I didn't wait a year or even a few weeks I like the second time it happened I'm like and I did it and I said it casually. I didn't wait until the end of the DM contract. I immediately I immediately told you >> um oh you're you're you're wearing that clone and I and at that point I wasn't and I'm still not and I remember telling you I don't mind the clone. I just want you to know that it lingers a long time.
>> Well, but but understand like what's funny is because maybe because of my my being on more of the other side, my initial understanding and assumption is that you had been living with this for years.
>> And so that's why I was so puzzled. I'm like in my mind I was like well wait a minute >> why are you just telling >> literally the second maybe the third time right I and and and I hadn't again I wasn't waiting until the end of the I immediately just >> as it and I and I wasn't even planning to say anything it just popped on like cuz I hugged you and I could smell it up front and >> when I finally put it together I was like >> oh this isn't a thing I've been wearing for years this is this other thing that I just started doing and that's what he's smelling.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Anyways that's very an accusation.
>> And I also was up to the possibility that I'm weird about my nose. Stacy can't smell it.
>> She I I would you would leave >> and um I'd be like, "Oh my god." And I'd pull Stacy in after you left and I could smell it really strongly and she'd be like, "I don't smell a thing." And and she has a you know, she's she doesn't have a weird nose.
>> Yeah. We all have things that smells and things that one thing that was very interesting too uh >> uh not super early but fairly early in our relationship me and and my wife. I would be brutally honest with her when I thought some things she was wearing didn't look great. And she was so unused to this that she took great offense or got hurt by it or whatever, right?
because I think she understood it as me putting her down or or telling her that she doesn't look good or something.
Whereas for me, I was trying to tell because from my perspective, I was like, "No, but remember yesterday when I said you looked amazing in this other thing, I'm just trying to give you real-time feedback." And yet at the same time the the one I this one time she told me indirectly that these red sweatpants I had like like she really didn't like the look or whatever and I got so hurt. I got so hurt. So it's weird how these things can happen for the same person and you're fine doing it one way to one person not doing it to other people.
Then when it's done to you you're hurt.
But if it's not right, >> well, now we're getting into sort of bro talk that has been going on for like 30 years that I remember of like if your wife asks you, do I look fat in these jeans? You say no, they make you look amazing even if they do make her look fat. And u this is also related to it, right? And you know getting away from misogynist talk another part of the flowchart is uh what is the possibility or do you know that the person is sensitive about this you know and I think it kind of relates to what we're talking about with sunson on my shoulder which is that if you are so diplomatic there's a chance that she could take it way harder than you could ever mullify, you know, attenuate with telling her the full story.
>> And is everyone better off right with this?
Now, you also have to have that uh question mark of is it worth her finding out that I did lie in this moment?
>> Yeah.
>> But there's also ways to avoid quote unquote lying, right? Like you get the sheet music >> like like what you were saying. you were saying like this is amazing and so >> but even short of that like you're like like I I don't recall you confirming that Construction Time Again is your favorite album.
>> That's true. I didn't I didn't say yes this is my favorite album. You were just like, "Oh my god, thank you so much."
>> And I and I and I pivoted to, do you realize, which is true, this is my first Depache Mode vinyl I've ever owned.
>> Right. So, >> which is true.
>> So, uh, when I would eventually learn that you weren't uh revealing to me the full truth, I wouldn't say, "Well, he just flat up lied to me."
>> Right? I I could easily say, well, he was just being really nice in the moment and and he didn't lie. You know what I mean? Uh, having said that, yeah, uh, uh, I think, you know, one of the things, this kind of relates to therapy a little bit at times, but we'll try to wrap it up because we're getting a little long in the episode. But, but one of the things that I would do with teenage clients to try to uh, I could tell them all day long that I wasn't a teacher and I wasn't a parent and I wasn't a cop. I had to somehow show them that way. And there are various different ways to do it. And I, you know, I could self-disclose about something like uh something about I smoked weed the other day or something or I could swear a lot or I could tell them that I shoplifted when I was young and or whatever, you know, just something that is showing rather than trying to convince. And I think that with friends or any kind of relationship, there are opportunities for that where >> if you show that I'm going to be I'm honest with you and I'm going to be spontaneously honest and I'm not going to um be afraid of being honest and I value you enough to be honest. Like you can say that to someone, but if you do it then it says a lot, I think. And so telling someone they have a booger on their face or saying, "Oh my god, thank you. It's so kind of you. You thought the counts, but just let you know, dude.
Like you got it wrong and I have the receipts." Isn't that funny? You have another gift you have to give me now.
[laughter] Um but but thank you. Uh you're you're a good friend because you know like that demonstrates, you know, a level of I don't know. I almost wish that in the same chat thread I would have said that construction time again was my least favorite. There's nothing but it's not.
It's not.
>> They're they're adjacent. I think >> yeah it it was uh some great reward was right after this and I believe and uh like I said I also like this one but it was just funny cuz actually initially I I doubted myself. I was like, "Oh, maybe that is what I said." Right? That but a little bit I looked at the songs and I'm like, I don't know if you remember, I said, "Everything Counts is such a great song."
>> Right.
>> Right. So, I was being a little psychopathic. This is true. [laughter] A little Patrick Baitman.
>> No, I mean, you know, uh, you're just treating me like your wife after a month. [laughter] >> I was treating you like a 19-year-old.
So, so listeners, I'm really curious what you think about this whole conversation because I'm I'm I feel like I'm in like the early stages of deriving some kind of policy or or >> self truth >> and and so uh if you have insight into this, if there are philosophers out there that there's just got to be some sort of moral framework, >> you got to be stoic about it.
>> Yeah. Uh and and also if you have scenarios that can kind of flesh this out like well I did this and then this happened because I I don't know how to think about this because I um typically say honesty is the way and >> right >> uh and most of the and I still kind of contend this that most of the time impulses to deceive are misguided and uh andor a result of not having been modeled how to tell the truth without being a dick about it or something like that, you know? So, um, like with your wife who asks you, "Do I look fat in these jeans?" There's a way to be honest about that and and just say like, "Well, if you're asking me like objectively if other people would see you this way, then maybe. I don't know. But but you're still super [ __ ] [laughter] hot but you're still super [ __ ] hot to me, >> you know? And and also like you and and again you're not going to solve all problems in that moment, but the overall vibe should be felt from you as a partner that you love them and you love them as they are and you're attracted to them and you don't value them on on those metrics. You know what I mean, >> right? Um because I if I were and I've been in this situation at times if I were to uh say do I look older in this picture to my wife you know to than a picture 15 years ago and she was to be like no you look younger you look the exact same I' I'd be like what the [ __ ] like >> I guess that's ultimately what I what I want even though as I've realized in my past it's actually hard to hear but what I want is more like not so much. Hey, like here's what I want. I want to be able to say between these two shirts, which one do you think I could wear that or looks better or should wear should wear at the party? And I want the answer to be that one rather than I don't know.
They both look great on you, right? Like I want that feedback. Now, that might have been harder to hear for me as I was younger, especially because I was more and more insecure, right? But that's what I want. And so I guess as I think about it, I would want to compassionately or or empathetically also be able to provide feedback without being like, "Well, that one makes you look horrible and this."
>> Well, yeah. I mean, just uh as one last point is the giving feedback to your wife about clothes. From my memory of us talking about it on and off the microphone, that is a way more complicated thing that's kind of riddled with a bit of sexism in there if I remember. Objective.
>> We had an argument about it. Yes.
>> Yeah. it cuz it was a thing in your early relationship and >> Yes.
>> it was a little um controlling in a sense.
>> Well, that was your perspective.
>> Oh, [laughter] >> yeah. There were there were aspects of control that were related to it. Yes.
>> And then it's it was tangled in with the reality of like, oh, but I also want to be able to be honest and blah blah. So, yeah, it's it's complicated.
>> It wasn't just >> Yeah.
>> her presenting [clears throat] two shirts and you giving it it was >> it was also >> unasked for advice. Yeah. So if listeners remember that conversation, they might be like, but you know, so uh but anyway, I I I >> it's interesting to be in a philosophical field without a road map.
>> Yeah.
>> That cuz usually I kind of have some road map and I'm like, and this is a pretty common thing and something that obviously I've thought about before, but >> as we sort of worked our way through it, I'm just like I don't know if any of this >> none of this feels good to me.
But I uh I don't know what's >> like in a small way. I've had to practice this with my uh younger daughter because uh she writes songs and what I want to do is of course I want to fully encourage her. At the same time I don't want to just say that no matter what she says, does writes or whatever my answer is always that's amazing.
That's the best thing I've ever heard cuz I know that it's going to start ringing untrue to her.
>> Yeah. So, I've had to practice how to how to totally focus on the amazing parts and add a thing like, "Have you thought of this?" Or, "You know what? I almost feel like you might need one more verse or you know, stuff like that." Or, as Kirk always says, you're missing a bridge. [laughter] For listeners out there, I I'm not a big fan of bridges. Berto loves the middle eight.
It makes me think of this moment with my mentor, Phil Kushman, who had really made me feel like I had the potential to be a good writer. Something that I did not think of myself at the time.
>> And he got me all kind of jazzed up on that. And I worked really hard on this one paper and I got a little creative at the end and I submitted it. And when he gave it back to me, I thought, you know, I didn't know what he was going to say.
and he was he was a a brilliant man and so I figured it's probably not going to impress him very much. But >> um you know I was really kind of like what what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And he was like yeah I'm unconvinced. He said, [laughter] >> "I'm unconvinced."
>> And I was like, "Oh, [laughter] but it was true." And he was right. And I remember it as a good thing, you know?
>> Right.
>> And it was on the foundation of a good mentorship and it proved to me that if he ever does say something positive that it probably is from the heart, right?
>> You know, so that kind of [ __ ] you know, >> I think obviously matters. So, you know, so the the as I'm developing my flowchart, it's like what relationships and what people deserve your honesty. I guess I'm sure I'm not the first person >> and the energy to do that. And yeah, >> yeah, my neighbors, not that they were dicks and didn't deserve my honesty, but >> we certainly weren't uh friends. I didn't need them to know that I was an honest person. And I and we would never run that was another part of the thing.
I was like, >> we're never going to run into a situation like this again. There's never going to be a situation where there's >> a vagrant sleeping in my yard that is stealing [ __ ] from their house and they're going to have to cut down part of my tree. Like that's just never going to happen.
>> So I don't need to set a precedent. I don't need to course correct because there's no course to correct. with Nicole's dance mom friend. To me, if I were in her shoes, I'd be like, I don't want to be in a relationship with this person. Even if she does change, she's draining and she's a she's a drag to be around >> and she's a bad friend and I, you know, I I I don't want to course correct with this person. I don't want to see this person ever again. There are better people to hang out with. I feel bad for her, but I'm not her therapist. And so I don't I don't feel bad about just drifting away and saying I'm busy. And maybe that's okay.
>> And and to me I I think that's fine to be honest is also fine. But anyway, all right. Well, that does it for that episode. I swear to God I'm telling the truth about that. And everyone else and everyone out there, please take care of yourself because >> you deserve it. [laughter]
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