“He Was In The Wrong HERE” | Burnham SACKS Immigration Minister Just Days Into PM Job!

[00:00:00]Well, Bill Esterson is the Labour MP for Septton Central. Bill, thank you for joining me on the program. Good evening to you.

[00:00:07]>> Hello, uh, Peter. Um, you you've got me chuckling at the prospect of seeing your hairy legs, but uh I'm only because I'm not quite sure what to say about >> you're you're welcome in studio anytime, Bill. I'm not I'm not sure we'll we'll we'll put you through that. Uh, one person who's also having a bad day is uh, Mike Tap who has been sacked as immigration minister. Given his beef with Shabban Mammud, do you think that was just inevitable if that happened?

[00:00:32]>> Yeah, I I think so. You you can't go breaking collective responsibility and and and actually I see Joe White's been appointed. I think Joe would be excellent by the way. So, um, I think has a very good appointment.

[00:00:45]Yeah, it's interesting that Mike Tappa said, "I'm disappointed to be leaving government, but I have no regrets remaining loyal to Kier Starmer until the end." That speaks volumes, Bill.

[00:00:55]>> Well, I'm not sure undermining the Home Secretary was being loyal to the prime minister, so uh I don't think that really stacks up from from I've got a lot of time for Mike, but I think he was he was in the wrong there. And I I think this is this is the right outcome.

[00:01:10]>> Andy Burnham, the prime minister, says he wants an end to factionalism. He has appointed many people from his own faction. He has got rid of many Starites, 11 of them from the cabinet.

[00:01:21]We're also in a position where he sacked Mike Tap for reasons that we've now discussed. Do you think factionalism is really at an end? Especially when you look at the newest appointment to the House of Lords um who is Anna Sarwar who was the person who originally called for Kier Sarmmer to go to be replaced by Andy Burnham who denied that he had any role in factionalism and getting rid of Kier Sarmmer which a lot of people found were very skeptical about.

[00:01:45]>> Well, I don't I don't accept the characterization of factionalism actually Peter. I think every prime minister is going to appoint the team they want. When you have a change of prime minister, you're going to have a change of especially cabinet and and some junior ministers. I I think it's it's in that context that Andy Bernham's made the appointments that he has.

[00:02:06]>> Okay. Um I just want to play a couple of clips about what's happened during the day. We'll talk about PC Andrew Harper and what's happened on sentencing policy. That's a big issue. The Times reporting tonight that various uh various prisons are wondering actually what is the policy? What are they going to do when they release these people?

[00:02:22]Ailen Oconor spoke to our station earlier. She is the um the police federation representative for Temps Valley Police that Andrew Harper PC Andrew Harper was a member of. Let's see what she told Kevin O'Sullivan.

[00:02:35]>> Gut-wrenching is my initial reaction when I heard last night when I sent the Telegraph um report. Uh my my heart went to my stomach if I'm really honest with you. Um and that's no exaggeration. Uh and I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I'm incredibly disappointed. Uh and I speak for the voice of my membership across 10 Valley Police. And I actually think I'm I'm fairly confident I can speak for cops up and down the country because I also think they will equally equally be frustrated and angry at the news and the prospects of these individuals being released early from a sentence.

[00:03:11]The prime minister talked about this controversy as well. This is what Andy Burnham said earlier today.

[00:03:15]>> I feel uh for the family it's an appalling crime um that was uh committed. The main perpetrator uh will not be uh subject to any early release.

[00:03:27]Of of course others involved um have have potentially been identified but uh I've spoken to the new justice secretary. We will review the policy together and make further uh statements in due course.

[00:03:42]>> The [snorts] prime minister also talk talked more generally about his policy of capping bus uh fairs at two pounds.

[00:03:49]Let's have a little listen to this.

[00:03:51]>> I will always be honest with the public.

[00:03:52]It's my style. Uh this week the three policies I've announced uh ending rough sleeping um the cap the bus cap we're announcing today and the removal of VAT off electricity bills are all fully funded. Uh and that's the way I will go and people will say well how I've repprioritized the public's priority is reducing cost of living pressures. Uh and that's what I'm doing. I'm taking a difficult look at some of the things that the government was committed to digital ID being one example and rep prioritizing and I think that's what people would expect me to do coming into this job.

[00:04:33]>> Thank you to uh Bill Esterson for continuing to join us on the policy specifically bill of this uh review of prisons policy of sentencing. They passed the sentencing act last year. Uh Labor voted for that. A deputy governor of a prison has told the Times this evening, "We've been told to put planning on hold until it's clear what the new ministerial team's intentions are." Another source told the Times it's caused bedum. What do you think?

[00:05:01]Shouldn't Andy Bernham just make up his mind on this?

[00:05:05]>> Well, again, incoming prime minister and incoming government is going to look at existing policy just as they're looking at existing cabinet members and reach their own conclusions. I think Andy's absolutely right in the light of what you were just playing there to reconsider this policy and my understanding of the policy was it was it wasn't supposed to apply for very serious offenders. Clearly something's not quite right there. Um and this this this case highlights the need to review it. I think is is a sensible thing for the prime minister and the new justice secretary to do. Couldn't this been have anticipate? Couldn't this have been anticipated when the original legislation was passed? Because that's what the government voted for. I know Andy Bernham wasn't a member of the government at that time and he's every right to review these things. But when you have a deputy governor saying uh that there is bedum and it is unclear what the government actually wants to do, they need to sort that out very soon, don't they, Bill?

[00:06:04]>> Well, she promised to look at it and I think that's that's quite right. and and I'm sure that the the new Justice Secretary, Alex Norris, will have this as a as his top priority to to do to do just that.

[00:06:16]>> Um, tell me your thoughts on lowering Bus Ferris to two points.

[00:06:20]>> I think this is a good move. Um, yeah, for lots of people. I mean, I mean, look, I just tell you a story. I was at George Harris funeral on Monday, the former MP for Noi, which >> and a very good Northern Ireland minister. A very good Northern Ireland minister.

[00:06:35]>> Abs. Absolutely, Peter. a lovely lovely man and he the eulogy was given by Jack Straw and who was his boss in when they were both in government in in the um 90s and the early 90s and and Jack read out part of George's maiden speech where he talked about the extraordinarily high number of households in Nosley that didn't have access to a car at the time and whilst those numbers have changed a bit there are still significant parts of the country Liverpool city region being one them where a lot of people don't have access to a car. So, making it easier to travel by bus is a really really big deal for a lot of people. Um, but getting more people on public transport helps all of us, doesn't it?

[00:07:17]Those of us who drive benefit if there's more road space because there are fewer vehicles on the road. So, all round a very good policy. Uh, and I'm glad we've gone back to the two pounds cap.

[00:07:28]Previous government had had it until um until until Kharma came.

[00:07:32]>> I I agree with you that it's a good policy. The question is how it's going to be paid for because changing international climate donations into repayable loans is part of this. But the transport secretary Heidi Alexander and Sky News this morning didn't seem to know how that would actually work. It's early days of course but she I think came across her on this when she was interviewed by Sky News. Let's have a look. I don't want to interrupt but there's just a couple of things I just want because you say there on the interest I know that you're saying the details need to be worked out but it feels like that is quite a fundamental one because if you look at you know to be completely honest the west's track record of loaning money to developing nations you can see why people might have anxiety about that right so is there do we know if there's going to be interest or not >> uh so this is quite standard to have loans for international climate finance um as I say the detail will need to be worked out. Um we wanted to make the announcement today. Uh it's a really big priority um for the new prime minister Andy Burnham to help with the everyday cost of living. And so as I also as I said to you >> just trying to get the details of because this is >> so for you will appreciate that I'm not going to sit in your studio and tell you how something will work when the detail hasn't yet been worked. Sorry, I'm not.

[00:08:50]>> But the point that I am that I have made to you and I will repeat is that in order for loans to actually count towards your ODA budget, your overseas development assistant budget, then the terms on which those loans are given do need to be reasonably favorable to the developing country. We're not wanting to fleece anyone here. Um but and we actually want to maximize the development potential of this money that is available and so it is in line with what a number of other countries do on international climate. If I could just come in again but you'll forgive me [laughter] and I'm not going to give you the I don't have the detail to give you >> is she not giving the detail because she doesn't know the detail bill.

[00:09:37]Well, I suspect it's very have all the detail, but look, this again is about priorities, isn't it? Is the priority at the moment immediate changes to the cost of living and to enable people to travel more easily um or to sort out the the loan system for international climate finance.

[00:09:59]They're both important matters, but it you know, government is about priorities. There are scarce resources and and and I think the way that Andy Bern's prime minister and the government have hit the ground running shows that they recognize serious nature of the cost of living crisis that people up and down the country face. We saw it with the cut in of about4 a year on average off energy bills and I agree with all of that. We got this two pound bus cut price. I do think they get >> I I think I think these these are important matters and I understand your question about how these are paid for and they they will have to answer those questions.

[00:10:36]>> I mean taxes are going to rise, aren't they?

[00:10:38]>> He's got to make his mark and I think that's what he's been doing this >> and that's fine, but taxes are going to go up, aren't they?

[00:10:43]>> Well, I don't think that necessarily follows Peter, but they're going to have to explain how this how this works. Um how things are funded. I mean these are not uh neither the VAT cup nor the two pounds cap on fairs are um huge spending commitments but of course they will they will start to add up and I think we will see the detail in the budget.

[00:11:09]>> Do you think number 10 north is a gimmick?

[00:11:13]>> No, I don't. Uh I think actually and I think it's not just about the north. I think it's about the whole country. It needs to be number 10 for the north,southeast and west for Scotland and Wales as well. The point that the prime minister has made. I I think it matters because if we are going to change the way that government operates, if we are going to improve delivery speed and you know a lot about this from your time in in government, if we're going to speed up the delivery of government, we've got to change the way we work. And I think taking the a a significant part of how government operates out of London and setting up in Manchester as a start is a very very important step.

[00:11:57]>> You're absolutely right, Bill.

[00:11:58]>> Improving delivery.

[00:11:59]>> Okay. You're absolutely right that delivery was an issue when I was in government. It is an issue now. It will continue to be an issue. But one thing that was all the time was a problem was we had policies that had different departments that were uh one department owned a bit of it, the other department was part of another part of it. And the fact that I could cross the road and go and see somebody or lift the phone and say, "Can I come around in 15 minutes to see you about this?" Because it was two streets away was a really good way of getting things done. If someone's in Manchester, I'm not saying that Manchester doesn't have a role to play.

[00:12:32]You know, you could have number 10 Cornwall. You could have number 10 Glasgow if you wanted. The question is if people aren't physically there, okay, we've got loads of technology. It's not the same as, you know, this interview is not the same as if you're sitting opposite me. It's slightly different because you are on Zoom. And that's going to be the case for lots of different people when they're trying to run the country. Well, >> yeah. Look, I think people pick up the phone to each other when they're both when they're both in London. So I I don't think that the technology um or lack of techn or or or lack of being able to have face to face meetings is necessarily a problem here. But there's got to be a change in the the way that government operates otherwise we're going to carry on with the the kind of I think talking to colleagues in in government and my select committee seen this by the way as well very much so.

[00:13:17]Why are things not happening more quickly when ministers are making decisions when the government is passing laws and as as we were saying it didn't start with the gear dharma government?

[00:13:26]This has been going on for a long time and I think this is a a very interesting attempt to break some of the log jam.

[00:13:34]>> That's a fair point. Um Bill, thank you.

[00:13:35]That's Bill Esterson there, Labour MP for Stephan Central.