🇲🇽Arte antiguo en México 🇲🇽

[00:00:01][music] [music] How are you? Good morning from Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico. And with the image of the murals of Cacaxla, Tascala in the background, the master Eric G. Cárdenas greets you from the Mexico before Mexico channel. Today we are going to discuss the topic of ancient art in what is now Mexico, which represented one of the areas of the planet where the sophisticated civilization now called Mesoamerica flourished.

[00:00:49]For nearly three millennia, a series of cultures developed in this territory that encompasses the Tehuantepec region, the forest and jungle areas of Central America, what we know as the Mayan area, as well as the southern and eastern mountain ranges, the central highlands, the eastern and western Sierra Madre, where a number of peoples with different languages ​​began to share cultural and artistic traditions, influences from both sides, and generated a very sophisticated manifestation of art in antiquity. In particular, for today's case, I'm going to show some of the pictures I took on my last visit to Teotihuacan, which was last Sunday.

[00:01:43]There we not only visited the tourist areas, which are the most crowded by people who come to Teotihuacan, that is, the pyramids of the Sun and the Moon, so called, but we also went to some palace areas that are located in the archaeological nuclear zone, right? On the perimeter of the archaeological zone, but also outside of Totihuacán there are other small areas of palaces where we can appreciate in situ in the place where the original paintings that decorated this ancient city were made, in addition to the fact that in the northern part there is a museum that has the name of Beatriz de la Fuente, one of the most outstanding art historians who precisely investigated the aesthetics and art of the pre-Hispanic peoples.

[00:02:36]Well, this museum of Altohuacan moral painting is named after Beatriz de la Fuente, and there we were also able to take some pictures of this ancient art.

[00:02:46]Hm. I'm going to see how this kind of topic about, well, art history turns out, basically starting with Teotihuacan, this city from the Classic period that is very accessible on the outskirts of Mexico City, right? Well, there are many manifestations of pre-Hispanic art, of Mesoamerican art from the time of the so- called Olmecs, let's say, two millennia before Christ, up to these that we are going to show today, which would be between 200 and 650 AD, as well as more recent manifestations of art, some like those here from Cacaxla, from the so-called epiclassic period, around 700, 800 AD, and also those towns that experienced contact in the 10th century with the Spanish.

[00:03:41]Uh, I hope you find it interesting. Before I start showing the images, I'm going to send some greetings to the people who are connecting and also to those who live in Mexico, especially in Mexico City, but throughout the country or to those who visit our country, in post-revolutionary Mexico. He has also spoken many times about how the national narrative was modified, but one of the claims made about these ancient cultures, about this ancient art, was manifested in architecture. So, sometimes one visits government buildings, one visits the UNAM university campus, for example, different works in the parks and many of these architectural works of urban spaces have inspiration from ancient art, especially from the art of the classic period and I would say above all Teotihuacan, because as we will see it is a rather geometric art and we are going to compare it with Mayan art, for example. So, there was this reclamation or influence of ancient art on post-revolutionary architecture, right? For the architecture of Mexico as well, of the Mexican miracle. That is, when they were being built, when there was economic growth and large works were being carried out, as I already said, the central campus of the University City of UNAM. There is also the Military College, which is inspired by the volumes of pre-Hispanic art. So, well, this is an art, the ancient art of Mexico, it is obviously very particular, it occurs in an American civilization or as I already said Mesoamerican and it represents one of the most interesting original cultures or civilizations of humanity.

[00:05:39]So, well, before we start projecting the images, thank you for the greetings all the way to California. Hey, thanks to José Miguel all the way to Spain. Greetings to Guadalajara as well, and greetings to Barcelona.

[00:05:58]Hey Emilio, greetings to Valencia and thanks for your good wishes and comments. Thanks to Thanos there.

[00:06:07]So, well, one of the first images or one of the first sites we visited on this tour is this so-called temple of Quetzalcoatl.

[00:06:16]If you look closely at the image, it is an architectural display that combines monumental sculpture with architecture.

[00:06:31]I'm going to get a little closer to see the detail, right?, that these sculptures have; there are effigies or sculptures that come out of the architecture itself that represent different deities. And so we had a conversation there, we usually talk about what they represent, the way in which these ancient peoples, in this case Teotihuacan, are trying to give an explanation to the cosmos, to the environment where they live, and so they put images like lizards, felines, referring to different elements of nature like snail shells, like the bodies of the serpent. So, in particular, what ancient art does in many parts of the world is to make a representation of the sacred world, that world which is perceived as sacred on the outside and which is perceived as sacred, right?, in nature, on the outside, but which does not properly have a figurative representation. So, art tries to give it that representation, it seeks to represent the wind, the sun, wisdom, a series of qualities and characteristics that the surrounding environment has. So, in the case of Teotihuacan, I find it extremely interesting how there is a geometric relationship to understanding the order of the world, the order of the cosmos with art. In other words, if you can see, there is a symmetry between the different sculptures. There are common areas, as you can see there, that is, there are well-planned spaces, the floors are well-defined, and those who have accompanied me already know that we talked about how around the 24th century AD there was some political crisis in Teotihuacan, which caused this temple, which represented one of the dominant lineages in Teotihuacan, to be buried, which is the so-called temple of Quetzalcoatl.

[00:08:34]Well, greetings again from this Seer, and José Miguel says that what you're drinking is coffee. I've already mentioned that it's a beer glass, but right now I'm using it to keep my coffee from getting cold.

[00:08:55]Uh, and well, these are the urban spaces that existed in Totihuacán. The function was a sacred function, that is, to come into contact with these forces of nature, to come into contact with these deities. And there was an elite, a ruling class, a priestly class that came into direct contact with these deities and that then exercised religious power, a symbolic power to organize Teotihuacan society. I'm going to stop sharing this now. When we talk about the Tihua society, we are talking about a series of founding groups from around the first century AD, who began to design the urban layout of Teothuacan. These groups, these first founders, their origin is debated. We are in a discussion there about what the ethnic origin of those who founded Teotihuacan was. Well, there are those who point out that they were groups, as Duerger says in the book about the first mixing, or also as David Bright, whom I interviewed on this channel, has commented, well, they were Otomanguean groups.

[00:10:10]Regarding the groups, I lean towards this second line of research, which are Otomanguean groups, since they are the oldest groups in the Mesoamerican zone, specifically in the nuclear zone of Mesoamerica, from the southern mountains of the valley of Oaxaca to the central highlands. And it seems the most logical thing in linguistic, ethnic and cultural terms is that the Nagua groups came from the north, from the northwest specifically, that is, from these regions where I live, right? The Sonoran Desert region and the Pacific coast.

[00:10:44]And these groups will migrate towards the central part of the country, right? And so, well, regardless of this discussion, the first founders of Teotihuacan already came with a tradition of establishing these geometric cities, of making this relationship of squares, right? To create this symmetrical aesthetic is also because, as I have explained in other Initu tours and in other presentations, in the Puebla Atlascala valley, the adjacent valley, these measurements, these geometric measurements, began to be developed to establish towns, to establish cities. For example, Cholula was established a couple of centuries before Christ halfway between Matlal Cuelle or the Malinche volcano and Popocatepl. They are taking large measurements of the spaces in the valleys for urban planning and to give a theatrical effect of monumentality to these cities, apart from an order that corresponds to what is above in the sky, what is on earth and also what is below in the underworld. This temple of Quetzalcoatle that I was showing you was built on top of some caverns. In these caves, various offerings were deposited, including mercury, that is, this liquid mineral, and also other figurines made of ceramic, obsidian, etc. Well, this relationship is quite interesting, and this attempt to explain the cosmos or the world around them.

[00:12:22]Thanks for the great chat, Costa.

[00:12:25]And here's a question then that I find interesting and that could be a good starting point for explaining this type of art and civilization. One could say that Tiotihuacan was the Rome of Mesoamerica.

[00:12:39]Without a doubt, this one has that magnificence and that influence on the ancient world, right? In other words, the Teotihuacan aesthetic, the way in which they represented the world around them, as I have been saying, the way in which they expressed the deities in ancient art, as we will see in a few moments, is something that will come to influence later cultures in the center of the country. Here, for example, is another image of one of the patron deities in her female form from Teotihuacan.

[00:13:23]Yes, here she is with her feathered headdress.

[00:13:27]Ah, this one has a frontal perspective, the representation of, for example, the bird that is in the upper plume.

[00:13:34]She also has a green mask made of some precious or semi-precious stone such as jade, and this deity is seated on a throne. And what I find interesting in order to answer this question is that the human representation, or this figure, this anthropomorphic deity, that is, a being that does not reside on Earth, but resides in the upper world or the underworld, but has human attributes, is not represented with the naturalness of a human being, that is, of the human body, right? is more or its body is very small compared to the natural dimensions of the human body.

[00:14:18]The headdress in the composition occupies almost half of her figure.

[00:14:23]So, we're talking here about the human body being represented geometrically, and I'm mentioning this precisely to answer the question, right? Otihuacán is a civilization that represents deities, human beings, and animals in a geometric way. They are organizing their space around it. Here we also have a piece that is in the museum that Beatriz de la Fuente was telling you about, where the way in which they are organizing their constructions is also represented geometrically.

[00:14:58]So, it's not a civilization that creates naturalistic art. I'll come back to that later, but look at this piece from Calacmul in the Mayan area. There we do have a representation of the human body where roughly one head would be, sorry, seven heads, right? Or the size, the height of seven human heads is what would correspond to the body, right? So, one, two, three, four, five, six and a half or seven, right? As seen in this figure. In other words, it is a naturalistic representation of the human body. Quite the opposite of what is seen, or rather, different from what is seen in the anthropomorphic representation of Teotihuacan. And why is this?

[00:15:37]Because we do not find, speaking of the case of Rome, we do not find human figures represented in a natural way, we do not find kings, we do not find Otihuacan warriors, there is no reference to any individual character, there is no particular name. They are all deities, they are all sacred, mythological animals. In other words, Teotihuacan art revolves around religion, around sacred and symbolic thought. And there is no conquering warrior, no great authority who has made any conquests, which is even seen in Monte Albán, right? In Montealbán, one can see great conquerors from the Oaxaca region. Obviously, in the Mayan area, all the kings who ruled the different cities during that classic period are also represented. Here I have only given an example of how in the Mayan area their feats, their names, etc., of the conquests they made are written down, while in Teotihuacan that does not exist. In Teotihuacan we have mostly deities represented in different colors.

[00:16:48]So, one could say that it was a kind of Rome of the New World in the sense of its cultural influence, the way of representing the gods, the rituals, the aesthetics of the urban areas. Yes, it can be said that it is the culture that most influenced Mesoamerica, the entire civilized territory during the classic period, especially after the fall of Tolhuacan. In other words, the artistic, aesthetic, and symbolic influence of Teotihuacan is present in all Mesoamerican cultures, to a greater or lesser extent, especially in the central basin of Mexico. The Teotihuacan influence is very present; perhaps it is not as present in the Mayan area, but without a doubt, as a people who influenced a series of human beings and cultures, we could say that it is like Rome, which came to influence the entire Mediterranean area and later what we know as Europe. Now, in terms of how their civilization was structured, Rome, well, we know that they are great conquering peoples, right? These are peoples who expand the territory of their empire in a military manner. And in Tothuacán it is not clear, that is, in Tothuacán there are no representations of great warriors, nor is it seen that they carried out great conquest campaigns in the surrounding territories. It would seem to be one of these civilizations that Linda Manzanilla calls first generation, that is, where the theocratic prestige, that is, the religious and symbolic prestige that Teotihuacan has, is what gives it that power, what gives it that status as a great city of the world or of this ancient world, of this Mesoamerican world.

[00:18:39]And this is the reason why their emissaries reach people this way to share knowledge, to take that knowledge to other places, and so on.

[00:18:48]So it wouldn't be a warlike expansion, an imperial expansion of Teotihuacan, but rather a symbolic expansion; that is, it didn't need large armies to bring its culture or civilization to other territories.

[00:19:06]That's at least what the art remains tell us. And also, when Totihuacán falls, then, as in the case of Cacaxla, a series of warrior representations begin to appear. In other words, from my point of view there is a change, right?, in the paradigm with which civilization is organized. In the Teotihuacan period, this symbolic prestige that Teotihuacan has is a religious one. And after the fall of Tatihuacan, or when this system already enters into collapse and decline and in its collapse, then comes a militaristic stage of the Mesoamerican peoples.

[00:19:45]Unlike what happens in the Mediterranean, this militaristic stage does not take place in an imperial capital. In other words, there are a kind of conflict after the fall of Tolhuacan that do not produce, as in the case of the Mediterranean, an imperial capital like Rome that ended up dominating the surrounding peoples. So, that seems to me to be an important point. They seem to be different models of civilization, don't they? Well, also in the case of Teotihuacan, there are no influences from other territories that come to revitalize these Mesoamerican peoples, outside of the Mayan civilization, which is very similar, although the Mayan civilization is more sophisticated than the western, Toltec, or Teotihuacan areas.

[00:20:54]In the Ptolemaic period, for example, in the Mesoamerican case, after the collapse of the Classic period, there is a stage, as I have mentioned in other talks, where civilization is not revitalized, but rather a period of decline follows, or at least a lower level of sophistication in terms of lifestyle and the quality of art that we see in the Classic period, right?

[00:21:21]So, that's an important point.

[00:21:24]Uh, I also don't know if I rambled on too much, if it was clear, but oh well. Hey, I'm here in the chat to answer any questions you may have. Okay, here came another question from Thanos. The Maya also had a whole mole, what does it say? Urban topography in some cities. Yes, absolutely. That is, the design, something that is recognized in the urban planning of Mesoamerican cities. They take the environment into account, that is, the surroundings, the hills, the geographical features, etc., played an important role in where a city was founded and why it was founded.

[00:22:07]Here, for example, is the case of Sochicalco, which is also from this period of collapse after Teotihuacan and where it was founded on the top of a hill with a defensive objective, but also with the objective of being close to certain deities and controlling a particular region. And here is another of the great examples, which is what we currently call the Palenque archaeological zone in the state of Chiapas. You can see there a tower that is practically four stories high, that is, a remarkable architectural advance in the ancient world that occurred in the Mayan area and that we do not see to the west of the Tehuantepec mountain, right? In other words, we don't see it in other Mesoamerican civilizations, but only in the Mayan area, and where the orography also determined the way in which these palaces, these temples, were arranged.

[00:23:05]etc. So, there it is, which is currently the archaeological zone of Palenque and which at one time was the kingdom of the Camjá. And comparing it to Teotihuacan, in Palenque we do have the entire dynasty of kings, right? From when one of the dynasties of Palenque was cut short, when Pacal's mother came, who was the one who established these diplomatic relations with Tical and caused, well, and is precisely the origin of this apogee of the city of Palenquen, King Pacal, well, one of the most represented in art, well, in the advertising of Mayan art, right? If you remember that movie Apocalypto, when the ruler is there, right?

[00:23:52]directing the rituals, this one is inspired by Pacal, for example, so he is one of the main figures. Anyway, well, that's where that comparison would be. Now, it's interesting, isn't it? As I was saying, it doesn't seem that the Teotihuacans were great conquerors or great warriors. Undoubtedly there was a military class and a class that had that function, whether of conquest or protection, but it does not appear to be the central point of their civilization.

[00:24:22]Once again, the central point seems to be these sacred figures and this prestige for being a place of pilgrimage, a sacred, religious place, with a great impact on this entire ancient territory.

[00:24:36]In this video about the 10 greatest conquerors of Mexico, I made reference to Born of Fire, this Teathuacan conqueror, and to the spear-thrower, who established an Entical dynasty, but it was an army.

[00:24:49]They establish their Entical dynasty, that is, this being born of fire marries a Mayan princess and there is an Entical dynasty linked with people from Teotihuacan. Hm.

[00:24:59]I'd like to start calling the Teotihuacans Toltecs, by the way, but that's something I'll do little by little for reasons I've already discussed, right? that when referring to the Toltecs, one is referring to this moment of greater sophistication, prosperity, etc. Anyway, well, then these Teothuacans established a dynasty in Tical and trade relations in Tical, Guatemala, which allowed the city of Tical to have this apogee and this economic prestige. So, we have a Mayan area where family lineage is very important, where the rulers are perfectly represented, where there is a historical account of the conflicts, conquests, victories and defeats that these rulers have made. In other words, among the number of Mayan cities that dominated this region from the southeast to the east of Tehuantepec, there is a system of civilization that can be traced through ancient writings. where there are cities that are independent, that have a very clear sphere of influence and impact, and that are in alliances or in conflict with other cities. In other words, in the Mayan region there is never a centralization of power nor a Mayan empire. If anything, the fiercest struggle that took place between these Mayan peoples was between the cities of Calacmul, which I already showed an image of, and the city of Tikal. And at some point, some were more prestigious and powerful than others, with Calacmul being the largest city of the Mesoamerican classic period. It was about 30 km² and was in fact larger than Teotihuacan, which was 23 km² larger than Otihuacan. So, despite Calagul's size and influence, he never managed to completely dominate his main rival, Tical. So there is one model of civilization to the east and it seems that there is another model of civilization, or we would say in terms of systems theory, another world system to the west of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. I would separate it in those two ways, right? In other words, there is a Mayan civilization to the east of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec and there is an eastern Mesoamerican or Otomanguean-rooted civilization of the peoples who spoke Otomanguean languages ​​to the west of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. And these civilizations west of the Tehuantepec River are the ones that developed this type of art that was showing them that it is more geometric. Let's look at another representation of Teotihuacan art, this one was also taken at the Beatriz de la Fuente museum and shows a bird that, according to the explanatory gloss, was interpreted by some archaeologists or art historians as a bird that was making different steps. In other words, there are what appear to be human footprints around this bird. And here, the observation or criticism I would make about this interpretation is that they are not bird tracks, right? In other words, it's not the bird doing a dance, because there they put the bird or parakeet dancing. It also looks like a bird with very long feathers, that is, it is a beautiful bird, perhaps related to the quetzal and that is rather on a path. If you can see the two lines on the sides of the image that more or less frame it, there is a yellow line and a greenish line, and framed within them are some human footprints that represent, or would represent, a path or a migration. Here, I would relate more to the fact that it's people who come from somewhere else, that is, who walked a lot from that tropical region where these types of birds exist. For me, it might refer to those who traded in feather art, right? These precious feathers came from tropical birds that traveled long distances from the jungles of the southeast to the central Mexican highlands. That's more the idea I get, but well, in art history sometimes there's an aesthetic description and then there's an interpretation of what this thing we see in the image means. And returning to the image or this aesthetic representation, I return to the subject of geometry, that is, the way in which the movement of the bird or its posture is represented. They are straight lines.

[00:29:32]The curved lines are actually used to define or shape the peak, right? To the wings. Some movements like these spirals that are also seen in the wings of the bird, obviously the circle, another geometric figure in the eyes, but there is not this form of naturalistic representation in an animal like this bird, right?

[00:29:57]This, from my point of view as well, if you can see in the image, are quite geometric representations, with rather rigid lines, I would say, right? It is practically a square bird that also has these rectangular shapes and they do not try to represent this freedom, this movement characteristic of other civilizations. If we compare it, for example, with Jain art from India, right? If we also consider Greek art with all these movements of human bodies, Teotihuacan art is extremely geometric, and this seems to me to respond precisely to the structured way in which they tried to explain the world, that is, the cycles of nature, what was below and above on earth, how they organized their cities in grid-like plazas, and so on.

[00:30:49]This perspective of the cosmos of the world, this giving it a geometric organization, well, as I say, had an influence not only in the life period of Totihuacán, but extended beyond it. Hence the memory of the great masters, of the Toltecs, of this very sophisticated and prosperous culture that existed in the periods after the fall of Teotihuacan, and hence the continued creation of an artistic style west of the Tehuantepec Peninsula in this way, that is, with very geometric manifestations. This is an aspect of Mesoamerican culture that fit perfectly with the way the Spanish structured Renaissance cities. In other words, the layout and geometric orientation were already in place, and there were also a series of urban planning concepts that fit with the grid-patterned, Renaissance cities of the 10th century. So, well, here we have one of these artistic examples that can be found in the museum. For those who are near Mexico City, I highly recommend making a visit. If you're only going to the museum, that alone makes it worth going to Totihuacán, because there are a number of original works of art on display there [snort] and practically nobody goes there. Well, this time there were only a few of us. I'll tell you about it this Sunday, and well, the main reason is because it was the last match of the World Cup in Mexico. At that moment we didn't know it was going to be the last one, but it was, so there were few people in the archaeological zone, and generally there are few people in these spaces, right?

[00:32:35]In the museum, in the palace area.

[00:32:38]This female deity that I showed you, which I would call Enat, this Chalchutlique, I show it to you again here. It is in a palace area not far from the Pyramid of the Sun, but practically no one visits it, and these palaces are where people lived in Teotihuacan.

[00:33:00]Okay, I'm going to look at some of the other questions that are in the chat. Costa comments again. It appears that the Hopi Indians of North America had news of Totihuacan. Yes, I've already talked in other broadcasts about the myth of Paladwaki, which comes from the Hoby book, which I think I had here somewhere, but well, this one and it makes a description precisely of a red city, this one, with two main temples, etc. They give a whole description there, and you think, they're describing Teothuacan, and they mention that it's where their leaders went to be ordained, right? Where they would acquire knowledge and then return to their homeland, right?

[00:33:41]Um, here's another question. You could say that those temples are like places of gods, like the Greek Olympus beyond Olympus itself, but it is a good question and comparison. Here I return to the temple of Quetzalcoatl. Yes, it is a symbol of getting closer to those deities. As you can see, not many of these deities are truly anthropomorphic; instead, they maintain this animal appearance, right? They are what are called somorphs. Technically they have the shape of animals, some of them mythological animals, um, combined animals, right? It is also curious that these alebrijes, a combination of animals with many colors and that represent different qualities and characteristics, were recently created in Oaxaca.

[00:34:29]So yes, it is indeed about getting closer to these forces, and I find this an interesting topic. I'm going to return to this image, which is something I also explain in the Initu tours and also explained in some videos about the conception that was had of the gods. That is, when we read Sagú, who is the main reference of the Nahua religion or the religion of the central basin, that this Nahua religion, as many studies also say, comes from these Toltec times of the classic influence or take of the Otomanguean cultures. But well, uh [clears throat] these cultures or these deities, when Sagu makes the description, that's precisely what he's trying to do, right? this Wiloposlis like another Jupiter, right? Or this is how he makes these kinds of relationships with the Greek and Roman deities of the pagans.

[00:35:27]However, they are not exactly the same. We couldn't exactly call it a polytheistic society; I mean, the term polytheistic does refer to having a very broad pantheon of deities, but not all of them are personified; rather, they are forces that exist in the universe, right?

[00:35:45]So, the feathered serpent, which represents an aerial element, is the feathers of what is above, and a terrestrial or subterranean element, which is the reptile, which is the serpent.

[00:35:56]So, it would unite, right?, the two forces above and below to represent, for example, wisdom, to represent life, for example. And then the attributes or the power of Quetzalcoatl, this wisdom was something that human beings could acquire or with which we could be in contact, right? This deity that we call Tlalock in Na and that in Otomi is known as MueJe and of which I am going to present an image that is here.

[00:36:27]There it is. That's the typical representation of what we call Tlalock, and in Mexico we all grew up with the concept that he was the god of rain, so when it rains, it means Tlalock has arrived, right?

[00:36:43]That's how we grew up with this concept.

[00:36:44]However, this figure, which in Otom would be called Muy, is a more complex deity; it is the one who makes things sprout from the earth. So rain is needed, but thunder is also needed, rivers are also needed, and underground bodies of water are also needed. So it's all these forces that are around, right? And there would be a representation from more or less 1500 years ago of this mule deity that represented all these qualities that existed in the world, in the cosmos.

[00:37:17]So, here's one of the main things to understand, right? to understand that these are figurative representations of something you can perceive but cannot see so clearly. So, that allows us to understand how these gods or deities were conceived.

[00:37:38]Now, to that one over there, right? That there is this discussion about how when Hernán Cortés arrived they thought he was Quetzalcoatl, uh, because there are those who see them as the Roman gods, that is, as if Zeus had come down from precisely this, how do you say it? Well, he should have come down from heaven, right? That he had come down from Olympus and manifested himself as a human being. So, that's not what it's about, is it? It is not that the deities were going to descend, but that they manifested themselves in these forces of nature. So, the question was not whether Quetzalcoatl had transformed into a human being and was Hernán Cortés, but what forces accompanied this human being, who was clearly a human being. Yes.

[00:38:18]So that's why they offer him different things that they normally gave to Ketsal Coatel to see how he would react to it, right? They offer him blood, don't they?

[00:38:27]This series of jewels has some people reacting to it, while others find it repulsive.

[00:38:32]And also imagine this if they get off these ships and fire cannons, a sound that was only heard somewhat similarly in thunder during rain. So it's not that they're gods who came down from Olympus, who came down from Tamuanchán, right? From the flowering tree that is above us according to the Mesoamerican vision, but they were human beings protected by powerful deities. That's why I always mention it this way. So it was clear that in this era they were human beings who came under the protection of powerful deities, right? They thought they were gods who came from Olympus, right? So, who's doing what, who's falling for it in this discussion, in this debate?

[00:39:15]I think it's a false debate, I mean, the belief that they were gods, right? Or maybe not. Some say, "Well, they believed they were gods," and others say, "No, it's a justification for the conquest." I think it's a false debate from those who don't know about Mesoamerican cultures.

[00:39:32]And from that, we can understand how they perceived different human beings, and human beings also have a sacred aspect, which is why they're also called teules, right? Because of that sacred aspect they had in their environment. So, this religious aspect, this sacred aspect, wasn't just manifested in natural phenomena like rain, fertility, droughts, or the strength of warriors. It was also manifested in politics, in who triumphed over another people, who dominated another, conquered another, and so on. These sacred forces were present in all these political conflicts, power struggles, and so forth.

[00:40:20]These deities were also involved. Neurat has called this and other aspects something like theopolitics, the way in which ritual and divine beliefs are present within all human activities. That's why it's also very difficult to separate religious thought from economic, political, and social thought, because this idea of ​​the sacred is so deeply ingrained in the world that surrounds us in Mesoamerican times. So, well, that's where these representations we see come from. What the deities represent is precisely this effort to give form to something that is perceived but doesn't have a clear visual form. It's not just about worshipping the golden calf; no, these aren't idolatrous peoples worshipping an effigy or an idol, right? Rather, this represents something deeper. Anyway. And well, taking advantage of Seer's question here, greetings. Indeed, part of the offerings given to these deities, to these forces, were human sacrifices. And Yes, in Tihuacán, sacrificed individuals have been found in the main temples.

[00:41:38]Foreigners, locals, and animals have all been found sacrificed, but sometimes one is found, right? That was part of a ritual for the construction of a phase of the temple, and so on.

[00:41:55]There we would say that this is one of the main differences with the warrior peoples after the Classic period and also with respect to the Mexica, who took this tradition of human sacrifice, especially in Guerrero, to more extreme levels. It says, here's an observation that says, "It's curious how Native Americans used large headdresses like in Mesoamerica." If Tihuacán had influence in South America, especially in trade, there was some connection between different peoples. Indeed, in Teotihuacan, that is, there are these long feathers, these birds that have large plumage, they are tropical, right? The parrot and the quetzal are not birds found in the temperate regions of the central highlands, or further north, are they? In the north there are some areas where there will be birds with large plumage, but yes, indeed, as I already mentioned, in these legends of the northern peoples, there is talk of priests or their chiefs who went to be ordained in the city of Paladuaqui in the south, and there is this representation, right?, of these large headdresses that were used in these rituals of the cities of the central highlands. Now, I'm going to comment here that what they call Moctezuma's headdress, it seems to me that it wasn't a headdress because of the images I've seen in the codices, it's more of an insignia. So, this headdress that was worn on the forehead like this, right? Imagine you ask AI to create a person from a pre-Hispanic civilization and it gives you Moctezuma's headdress. You can hardly see that, can you? In other words, the headdresses were used on the side of others or with other arrangements for the priests, in addition to the fact that the rulers in the postclassic period, that is, the tlatanis, used a kind of diadem, they did not use a headdress. But well, this one, this image of Moctezuma's headdress became popular in popular culture, but as we have seen, in ancient art it was actually used by priests in different rituals and well, here is Alfonso Pano, teacher, good day. How are you, Alfonso? Is it true that the San Juan River was diverted to make it flow through the middle of the city of Totibuacán? It's right.

[00:44:18]It is a river that was made at that time to create the urban layout, dividing the city from south to north and with the east, with the perfectly designed axis.

[00:44:31]All of this was planned according to how the sun changes, how it moves, and so on. That's right.

[00:44:41]Well, long live Mexico, Ismael, Charchigüita, Zacatecas and Teuchitlán, Huachimontones.

[00:44:48]The Huachimontones.

[00:44:50]Ah, yes, yes, of course. Near Tequila, Jalisco, right? It was also influenced by Teotihuacan. The Huachimontones are circular, they are also part of the classic period, but there must be an influence from the cultures of central Mexico, because it can be seen, this is also something I have explained in other sessions, that from the valley of Oaxaca or from the Sierra Sur, in the previous period, in the formative period, the civilization begins to expand. So, the Puebla Valley would be the northern zone of this Otomanguean civilization, and then they crossed into the Valley of Mexico; that is, the Valley of Mexico is where Cuikuilco first developed, right? And then Teotihuacan. For many years we were taught or it was thought that Cuikuilco, the people of Cuicuilco, had gone to found Totihuacán, but now it is clearer that it was the people of the Valley of Puebla, Atlascala, who went to found Otihuacán, these Otomanguean groups and then they expanded further north and further west.

[00:45:50]And precisely part of this influence, perhaps what Linda Manzanilla also suggests, is that the Cuicuilco culture, which built circular temples, is an important influence in the west, where the Guachimontones are in Jalisco and where these Toltec Oteotihuacans arrive in the Zacatecas area, in Ferrería in Durango, and even further north. Then it was established in this city, which is currently the municipality of Chalchigües, Zacatecas, because it is the last point where the sun reaches its zenith. That is, on June 21, the summer solstice, the sun is exactly 90 grams away from us.

[00:46:29]Beyond the Tropic of Cancer and this area, for example, here in Sonora, we never see the sun at its twilight. So there at that point on Earth a city was established in Teotihuacan times that was clearly an outpost of this civilization that was extending its influence to vast territories. And I repeat, it seems that it is not a military influence. And here I have to make a point. For a long time, the explorers who were in the Mayan area and saw these sculptures, these remains of paintings, these temples, they idealized a peaceful society that dedicated itself to observing the stars, to counting, right?, to making images of their gods. And in this one, I don't want it to look like I'm doing the same thing, right? In other words, I don't want it to seem like I'm idealizing the Toltec or Teotihuacan culture.

[00:47:20]What happened was that as the investigations in the Mayan area progressed and the inscriptions could be read, we learned that they were extremely warlike peoples who were in constant conflict, but also in relationships and agreements, right? In constant trade, but also the presence of war was something fundamental in the Mayan peoples. Now, we don't yet have evidence of that in Teotihuacan.

[00:47:43]In other words, there is no evidence of Teotihuacanos conquering large cities or being in conflict with the surrounding areas.

[00:47:49]It has been thought that Teotihuacan is this kind of metropolis, that is, this great city without equal, without really any rival as this capital in the basin of Mexico and that it did not really have rivals in the surrounding areas, it had cities with which it shared trade and shared relations. You can see Tiotihuacanos arriving at Montealbán or the Jaguar Hill in Oaxaca. As I said, we see Tetihuacanos arriving in the Mayan area, these Toltec groups arriving in different regions, but we don't see these scenes of conflict and war. In other words, as far as the evidence tells us, as far as the evidence we have provides us with information, it doesn't seem, as I already said, that these large societies were in constant conflict, warlike and conquering, right? So I'm not falling into idealization. If at some point evidence appears, right?, of great Teotihuacan conquests by large armies, well, then we would change the vision we have of these cultures.

[00:48:52]So, well, greetings to you there, to Mexico City again. Here I was saying that I've also been on social media, Marta, right?

[00:49:01]Stone Age cultures. So, as has been mentioned, this is not, let's say, a derogatory characterization, is it? It was used to cut obsidian, sometimes copper was used, sometimes gold in jewelry, that is, different minerals were worked and there was no advance towards iron, either because of the lack of the mineral or because there were other materials that were more useful and nevertheless they reached great levels of sophistication.

[00:49:31]So, well, there are also those of us who are not in favor of linear evolutionism, that is, that they don't have to work iron to develop complex systems of writing, of political and economic organization, as seen in the Mayan culture, for example, right?

[00:49:49]Even without these hard minerals, let's say, extremely complex and advanced civilizations develop. And here I will also make some other comments. It is thought that this level of sophistication, urban development, and social organization was present in the 15th century, but I have already said several times that this is not the case. In the 1500s, some six centuries after the collapse of these classical civilizations, the peoples who lived on this land after the classical civilizations did not reach the same level of sophistication or complexity in their development. In fact, that's why they thought Teotihuacan had been built by the gods. That's the name the Nagua groups gave it, right? because they could not conceive that human beings were capable of organizing themselves and making these kinds of constructions and representations.

[00:50:47]Ángel Aimelda also comments here, greetings. A couple of weeks ago I learned that the Tathuacan influence reached the Guatemalan highlands in the Caminaljuyu area.

[00:50:57]It's right. There are Tiotihuacan temples, are n't there? Nothing else seems like a mini-city tiotihua no caminuyu. In other words, it's predominantly the Teothuacan style, but there are other places where there are Teothuacan temples in Tikal, that is, in the Teothuacan style, right? This is thanks to everyone who's sending me greetings.

[00:51:18]This says here that the legend of Wiloposli's birth was surely copied from Greek mythology with the birth of Athena. When one reads Sagú or these references to indigenous mythology, the criticism of sources must be quite strict to see precisely which aspects of Greek culture, that is, because these peoples were often compared to ancient pagans, are present and how much of it is an indigenous representation, right? In the case of Witzilo Posley, I do see the symbolism, the Mesoamerican symbolism, right? That it is in the cuatepe, that there is a sacrifice of the Mimishkoa, that is, there are certain guidelines and these guidelines of a warrior are also seen, right?, that he is born and defeats all his enemies, etc. So, in the 15th century, especially regarding mythological topics, a fairly serious critique of sources should be done, which few people do, right?

[00:52:21]There are actually many esotericists explaining these issues on social media.

[00:52:28]Andrés Meraz Hernández says he has a question, he says, "Will a culture or society that remains stagnant, a worldview full of myths and rituals at the level of idolatry, be able to reach the light of scientific reason?" Well, that's a very good question because there are also those of us who think that science itself has become that, right? It has become a source of truth, of mythology, of creating myths, etc., when what scientific thinking really tells you is to go to the evidence, to compare the evidence, right? To have the humility to know or understand that we do not know everything and that there are parts that are knowable and others that are not. And yet, who uses science as a myth, right? Like this one. So, going back to your question, there has to be a process, right? There needs to be a development process where we move away from this magical thinking, this mythological thinking. This process occurs through the exchange of ideas between different peoples. So, that's what happened in the 15th century. In this land there is an exchange of ideas, of ways of thinking, and thus it gives rise to scientific thought, right? That doesn't mean that the whole of society will be transformed, does it? In other words, most of society is still stuck in these mythological thoughts, in these magical thoughts. Um, I mean, that can be seen both in the more technologically advanced societies in Asia and in the more tribal societies of Southeast Asia, well, also Southeast Asia, right? From America, from Africa, etc. So, that would be my answer.

[00:54:12]So yes, it is necessary to transcend the way of thinking and there are certain elaborations.

[00:54:21]Perhaps your question is also along those lines. This, Andrés, when León Portillo wrote this about Nahua philosophy and where, from these cosmogonic elaborations, there begins to be a philosophical exercise of using reason over myths, right?

[00:54:41]This, this is also a process that can be seen in different cultures.

[00:54:46][clears throat] This, well, he says again, Thanos were figurative representations of both natural forces and sometimes animals, birds, an instinctive ability and hierarchical power behavior.

[00:55:02]Hierarchies, if that's what you mean, powerful people actually sought to make contact with these forces that they saw manifested, right?, in felines, in the flight of birds, and so on. And that is a symbolic way of representing it. And I also have to say this, that is, that the image is not the image, the image has a background, an interpretation, right? And symbolism, it's something that also fit perfectly with Catholicism, right? So, other religions criticize us, huh, because we pray to the saints, right? Either we are or we are idolatries of the Virgin Mary in her different advocations, because he says they are idolatries. However, if you understand Catholicism, you are entering into a conversation, a spiritual relationship with, uh, not with that figure that is there, right? but with what that figure represents, or with what that represents, it's worth repeating, but with what it's representing, right? Or the symbolism of that representation. Anyway, there it is. This says, here's a good question again. Angela Imelda believes that we should discard all colonial sources that were written about the indigenous past just because the Spanish wrote them.

[00:56:27]This, no, [laughs] well, it's not the Spanish who did it, it wasn't informants who were later copied by the friars or other people, especially in the case of the Franciscans and the religious, they have their key informants, right? And they write down what their key informants are telling them from their own perspective. So, we have to understand that, right? Which part? How much of it is their vision and how much is the vision of the key informant, which is an anthropological and cultural process that happens anywhere in the world.

[00:57:02]Now there are these other chroniclers, this one, who come from native families, who were already educated in the 15th century and who also narrate the events of the past and ancient beliefs based on what they learned from their own relatives.

[00:57:23]So, to simply discard them because they come filtered or because they show us a moment where two different civilizations are trying to understand each other, well, I don't think that's feasible or correct, right? I know there's a whole trend that says, well, we can't trust any of these 15th-century sources, right? Colonial or viceregal, whatever. And yes, but we, nevertheless, in order to understand the codices, that is, to understand the mystical codices of the 15th century, of the 11th century, to understand these mural paintings, to have understood the Mayan inscriptions, well, it was necessary, right?, to read the writings of the 15th century, what these informants told us in Spanish or in Latin characters with native languages ​​and then go to this exercise of interpretation. Therefore, the 15th-century sources are fundamental.

[00:58:19]But what can I say to him? That's why I studied ethnohistory, which is practically its field of study in the 16th century, right? Understanding this pivotal moment in human history is essential to understanding what came before, antiquity, how it faced what arrived, and what emerged afterward.

[00:58:40]Well, Costa commented, returning to the topic of sacrifices, in the case of Teotihuacan he asks if the sacrifices could well have been prisoners of war.

[00:58:50]It seems so. One of them was a foreigner who was sacrificed, if I remember correctly, in the temple of Quetzalcoatl, but it was one, surely he was an important leader from another place who was ritually sacrificed there in the temple of Quetzalcoatl.

[00:59:08]This, and I'm going back to Angela's previous question. He says, "I've seen many people fall for that, like the written sources that talk about the indigenous past by a Spaniard, they are nothing but garbage and we shouldn't consult them because they manipulate the information."

[00:59:25]Yeah, I've heard of them too, haven't I? But it's not me, I mean, from the point of view of historical sources and trying to study the past, to understand antiquity, what do they use, right? So, they're supposedly basing it on an oral history that no one knows where they invented it or where they got it from, right? And this, and sometimes not this oral history or this oral tradition, there are also viceregal sources. There they are, I didn't ask Audich about this when I interviewed him, but there are the Vinisa or the better-known apothecaries making their accounts in apotheca languages in Latin characters, at the time of the viceroyalty, that is, they are leaving their tradition recorded through these supports and that allows us to understand ancient civilizations by doing these analyses and critiques of sources. Therefore, whoever dismisses these sources, it seems to me that they do not have sufficient training to make such a statement, nor would they have the tools to understand ancient cultures beyond their own fantastic and esoteric elaborations. Well, that's all for that comment.

[01:00:38]Well, Seker says, "I understand that they saw the conquerors as messengers of the gods. Similar to when we talk about the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. They are not God, they are messengers of God in the current view." This is an interesting idea, although not beyond the idea that the deity sends them, that is, as if the deity had a human consciousness.

[01:01:06]Rather, this seems to me to be a good point that should be analyzed, right? The consciousness of the deity is not an individual consciousness, but a collective consciousness. In other words, the fact that there are good years, bad years, good harvests, bad harvests, is not the capricious decision of an individual conscience of a God, is it?

[01:01:24]but rather it is the way in which the cosmos is structured. So, I do n't see that individual perspective of the gods at the time in the pre-Hispanic religion. Yes. That is, Tlalo is not sitting on his throne sending rain or not sending it according to his individual will, but rather it is something where more forces are involved. So, the fact that human beings arrive from another place, like the Mexica themselves or the Na groups who came from another place or the Chichimecas, to be more specific, uh, well [clears throat] we can say that not so much that they are sent, this is my point of view, right?, but that in their journey they are protected by these great forces with which they achieve military victories, right?

[01:02:08]That would be the distinction I would make, but I think it's a very good point that academia should discuss further, don't you think? How to understand these ancient peoples, which would help us to understand present-day peoples and ourselves. [snort] He says it's a Facebook question. Greetings Pablo. Are there any brochures, books, or other information about temples in Mexico that showcase architectural art in their construction, art in their murals, and internal altarpieces?

[01:02:48]Uh, I didn't quite understand the question, maybe you want to rephrase it, but I was sharing images, I 'll do it again, of the murals that are exhibited both in the Beatriz de la Fuente Museum of Tiotihuacan, such as this one of Muy or Tlaloc in Naatl, such as these that were recovered from different parts of the archaeological zone, as well as, ah, look, this, this is a photo [snort] this one of the interior of Tepantitla.

[01:03:20]There you can see, I put in the box the reconstruction that is in the National Museum of Anthropology and History and there is the original site that is near the Pyramid of the Sun, where you can see the remains of the murals and then you can see the reconstruction that was made. So, well, I don't know if that's the question, but to see the art, this ancient art, you can go to the museums in the state capitals, to the Museum of Anthropology. Around the archaeological zone there are also museums and the original palaces where these murals were found. In some cases they were removed from the original site, and in others they remain there, as is the case in Pantitla.

[01:04:03]Here is a representation of ball game players, but if you can see how interesting, they are playing with a stick as if it were a kind of hockey. We see that initu when we visit Otihuacán. I find it interesting that this thing you see here, this figure I brought closer, is a marker where they scored points with a ball, which was a bouncing rubber ball. It was heavy and hard, but it bounced and different points were marked. And it seems there's an injured person here, right? Here in the upper right part of the image you can see someone with a very large tear, like they have three drops on their leg that generally represent blood. So, there must be an injured player from this hockey-style ball game, as we would say in current terms, right? So there you have some of the representations. I highly recommend visiting Pantitla. If they do it with me, all the better. But also, if they don't agree with some of the dates, well, they can go and check that too, right? And I don't want to fall into chauvinism here, do I? But in Mexico they were already playing ball many centuries before football existed, which I think Spain is going to play right now, right? I do n't know if it's already game time or if there's still an hour to go, I'm not sure, but I think it's at zero right now. I don't know, you know how it is, you lose interest in the World Cup when your team loses.

[01:05:33]Well, thank you very much, Emilio, for your contribution to the super chat. As you know, this is a completely independent project from Mexico before Mexico, which remains active thanks to your support, thanks to the monetization of the channel, but also to these types of contributions or the acquisition of some of the products and services such as these in-person visits as Patreon patrons or also the online courses that we will be announcing soon on the channel.

[01:06:05]Well, thank you again, Emilio. And so, returning to this topic of artistic representation, here we no longer leave the geometric art of the gods; these are properly figurative representations with human movement, but even so, if you can see, the head is still extremely large in relation to the rest of the body, and the representation of the limbs, although they want to manifest movement, is still very simple and from my point of view it is still geometric. Let's compare this Otihuacano art, what we see here of the representation of the ball game with what we see from the Maya. This is the famous Bonampan Pac mural, right? Well, that's the famous Bonampan mural that features three chambers.

[01:06:59]One represents the preparation for a war, another represents the war or battle, and another represents the celebration of the victory. And in these different cameras of Bonan Pack you can see, for example, these musicians who are there.

[01:07:14]It looks like they'll be bringing some kind of large rattles, right? And in other parts of the mural you can also see a kind of trumpet. These headdresses are visible, and as I mentioned, the representation of the human body is much more naturalistic. in Bonanamp. Here you can see that they are walking or that there is some movement, a representation of movement. There is a central character who stops and looks the other way. In other words, the Mayan artistic style, uh, I have to say it like this, in artistic quality and in advancement was superior to the Teotihuacan style, which is rather, uh, as we have seen, geometric. So, this type of artistic expression, this way of representing the human body, we also saw it in this other mural of a domestic or palatial image from Calacmul, where there is a lady in a blue dress, right? Giving this one a very large pot to another who seems to be part of the court, who puts this pot on her head. There is a man on the right drinking from a vessel and there is someone on the left taking notes like a kind of scribe. So, these representations of Mayan art with all their movement, their figuration, etc., represent a highly sophisticated advance in artistic representation. In other words, I'll say it again, the Mayan civilization, well, the truth is that it's in a league of its own compared to the rest of the Mesoamerican civilizations, since it reached this level of artistic expression.

[01:08:53]Also, as I mentioned, after the collapse of the Mesoamerican civilizations, this level of sophistication was never reached again. At some point, when the decline of Tihuacán comes, when this period of greatest apogee of Mesoamerican cultures ends, we have groups from central Mexico going to the Mayan area and Mayan groups moving to central Mexico. So, there's a destabilization of the entire system and we also have a series of conflicts, right? Which is what is represented, for example, in the murals of Cacaxla. Here we have this in the state of Tlaxcala, that is, in the east in the central highlands and we do not have Tiotihuacan art. Having seen both parts, right?, the Mayan zone and the Teotihuacan zone of the central highlands, what we have in Cacaxla is a very clear Mayan influence. There, uh, there we have characters that appear with movement. It's visible, I don't know if it's clear, this is a photo taken there on site by Salvador Espinoza, whom I send my regards, whom I have already interviewed on the channel. So it's a photo he took directly from the original murals where you can see that there is, in fact, there's the glass that covers them, you can see a bit of the glass that covers them on the right side, but you can see that they are subduing a warrior who has an eagle helmet, right? There you can see this warrior in submission; you can see that he has some wounds and that drops are falling from these wounds. I'm going to zoom in a little closer because this one has good definition.

[01:10:42]There it is, isn't it? Uh, his hands are folded, his forearms are open, right?

[01:10:47]It is a brutal representation of a battle where this eagle warrior, you can see his helmet as an eagle, has fallen, defeated and wounded in battle. So, what falls from his wounds is blood, obviously, and we compare it, right?, with, I'm going to move the figure away now.

[01:11:11]We compared it to the representation of blood that we saw here in the art of Tatuacano. It seems to be more like a canon here, doesn't it? This character who was wounded or injured in the ball game, the representation of blood is these three drops, right?

[01:11:30]So there you have it.

[01:11:35]Let's say, that's the level of representation in Teothuacan that reflects the fact that they were planners, urbanists, engineers; they had this geometric thinking, and we would then compare it with the more naturalistic representations that also occur in the central highlands in Cacaxla, but which has a clear influence of Mayan art, right? There are these depictions of war.

[01:11:59]Well, uh, that's how they are. Now we look at the image from further away. I took this one there behind the glass in Cacaxla. There is the representation of the battle. We will also be going back to Yacaxla soon. I took a picture of myself in front of those war murals. So, you see, right? This is the lady sitting down who appeared in the photo. [laughs] There I am taking a picture in front of these murals so you can see more or less the dimensions and the space where these types of artworks were represented. And here is also one where you can see this great plaza, that is, there was a great plaza, there was a palace and these were images where the ruling class, those who had won a battle in this period, represented these warlike feats.

[01:12:49]So, as I said, this is precisely at a time when Teotihuacan is in decline, where there is a collapse or the collapse of this great civilization begins, and these other smaller cities like Kakashla in the state of Tlaxcala today begin to emerge. And it can also be seen in this picture that we took on the day of the visit. It was a very beautiful day because the horizon was clear, a rare thing in the urban areas of central Mexico, but oh well. And here you can see the silhouette of the volcanoes. So, it's a truly spectacular place, isn't it?

[01:13:25]Surrounded by volcanoes, we have this ancient city where Mayan-style murals appear, etc. So it is a truly spectacular place that gives us an idea, that is, from seeing the murals of Cacaxla, we understand a good part of history, a crucial point in ancient history and the history of art. That is, we have a moment after the decline of Teotihuacan, where there is a series of warriors from the southeast, where there is a series of warriors from the region entering into conflict and where we apparently go from societies based on the theocratic symbolism of the priestly class, to militaristic societies. And here I return a bit to the question that was asked at the beginning of the broadcast or when the broadcast was starting.

[01:14:12]Would this be a kind of Rome, or would imperial societies be formed?

[01:14:18]The point here is that these militaristic societies did not have a great culture to give them this influence, this philosophical or civilizational sophistication like the Romans had the Greeks, right? From my point of view, these militaristic societies simply dominated their area of ​​influence by force, and there was a decline in knowledge, including mathematical, philosophical, cosmogonic, and other forms of knowledge. And this moment after 650 AD or the couple of centuries before 900 AD, well, it is a period that is sometimes called epiclassic, but which marks precisely this change of era in ancient times and where apparently the population collapse was extremely brutal. That is, from cities populated with tens of thousands of inhabitants, 200,000 or perhaps more than 100,000 inhabitants.

[01:15:18]You start to see smaller cities in this period and the population probably halved. In the Mayan area it is estimated that there were between 12, well, I don't have the exact figure right now, but something like up to 16 million inhabitants in the classic period. And after that, well, there could have been between 4 and 8 million, right? That is, roughly half the population. It declines with the passage of time, with the collapse of the classical period, and this is manifested in art.

[01:15:48]Well, we'll see how much interest these topics generate. Here's another one of the pictures taken there in Cacaxla. There is much more to see in ancient art, although I must now wrap up today's broadcast.

[01:16:04]My intention in this broadcast was simply to show you some of the ruins we have visited initu, such as Teotihuacan and Cacaxla, and to see their relevance in understanding ancient civilizations.

[01:16:17]Before I say goodbye, I would like to make it clear that this is the period of greatest sophistication, with larger cities, finer art, and more complex societies; it is called the classical period. There are representations of this type of art. Ah, thanks for the confirmation. Acosta España plays for 45 minutes.

[01:16:42]Go very well.

[01:16:45]Uh, I have to go for a few runs [laughs] to pick up my kids and all that kind of stuff. We'll be keeping an eye on it. Well, getting back to this topic, this is the art that represents this period of apogee and it is one of the topics that has fascinated me the most over the years, seeing how these cultures reached this level of sophistication and carried their influence.

[01:17:09]This Totihuacán returned to large areas, to very distant towns in this land, and this influence remains, and as I mentioned at the beginning, this type of aesthetic even seeks to recover itself through some architectural movements of the 20th century, especially. So, this is what we can see in these ancient civilizations. In other broadcasts I would like to explain the formative period, that is, the art of the pre-classic period that we also see in Morelos as in Chalcatzingo, right? In the Olmec area, in the Oaxacan area of ​​Monte Albán as well, and this and other later types of art like this one from Sochicalco, which is also in Morelos, and which represent this moment of the epiclassic, of the decline of the classic civilization, but which continue to manifest this artistic sophistication, and I wanted to put this one as an example.

[01:18:11]This is a properly Mexican engraving that is found in a hall for warriors in the main temple, that is, this is the archaeological zone of the main temple in the historic center of Mexico City. Well, we see that this influence of the oldest cultures continues to be recovered, these human representations that tend more towards geometry than a naturalistic representation. But we also see that the manufacturing is not the same, it is not the same quality as in the civilizations of the classical period. And here Costa's question came at a very good time. What technique did they use for these murals? It was cool. Indeed, at the height of Teotihuacan's sophistication, the fresco technique was used; that is, stucco was applied to the walls to cover the stone with which they had been built, and while it was drying, the first colors were applied so that they would adhere to this material, and several coats were also applied after this. In some of the early paintings, we see what we would call tempera painting, that is, painting on top of the dry wall, but later we begin to see a greater absorption of the colors in these walls. Whereas in later art, as in the case of Teno Tittitlan, there is not properly an application of stucco, but many of these colors are applied directly to the stone. So, well, the manufacturing process for these paints is changing, right? It is not made with the same quality as in ancient times, although it obviously also represents cultural and artistic values ​​worthy of highlighting in the post-classical cultures. Yes. So there we have this, which is already typical of the 15th century, and in later broadcasts it would be a good topic to also show how Mayan art begins to transform, right?, from this moment of greater sophistication to moments of lesser sophistication. This is one of the lessons I've learned from understanding this ancient Mesoamerican world, because, going back to the question about cultural evolution, isn't it? Well, some people think that humanity is destined to move on to a fourth generation civilization, a fifth generation civilization, to overcome, right?, capitalism in order to reach a new era of greater prosperity and technoscientific development.

[01:20:46]I hope so, [laughs] but history has also shown us at different times that sometimes when civilizations collapse, a period of decline follows, that is, there is not always progress in these models of human civilization.

[01:21:02]So, that has to be taken into account many times; this is, I repeat, one of the greatest reflections that understanding the Mesoamerican classic period allows me to grasp. We often think that to fix current problems it is necessary to abolish current institutions and restart with a new model. But what some of these peoples show us is that we must take back the best of these institutions, the best of the civilization in which we live, to correct these problems and continue moving forward in prosperity, health, quality of life, level of sophistication, technology, and so on. Because of course, I mean, one possibility when we move on to another historical period or another period of our current civilization, well, one possibility is that it will be a decline, right? One possibility is that we will not advance technologically, but rather decline, that there will be a destruction or a decay, a collapse, and we will have to start from a lower point in scientific, technological, artistic, and other development.

[01:22:15]Well, even now that I mention it, I would say that there is a period of decline in current artistic representations, but well, I don't know what you think about this reflection and what other kinds of reflections we get from seeing these artistic manifestations of antiquity that can be seen, can be visited, very few people do it, really, right? Although Teathuacan is one of the most visited areas in the world, very few people actually go to see the skin of the city as well. Tlaxcala, if I 'm not mistaken, is the least visited state in Mexico. In other words, very few people actually go to Cacaxla or these kinds of places where the ancient art is really located, this ancient indigenous culture that we are supposedly so proud of, but which the evidence tells us is very little visited by Mexicans themselves. So, the invitation is to visit these sites, these museums, to appreciate this ancient art and to reflect on how these civilizations arose, how they were organized, why they declined, and what lessons that decline and that historical process leaves for us human beings who live today. So, without further ado, I send you my warmest greetings again from Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico, here in the northeast of the beautiful Mexican Republic. And remember, I 'm Professor Cárdenas, and I'll see you in the next class. See you later.

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