The Palestinian Feminist Collective's report 'A Predatory State' documents that Israel's systematic use of sexualized and gendered violence against Palestinians—from detention centers to military operations to surveillance systems—is not incidental but a deliberate, institutionalized mechanism of settler-colonial rule spanning from the Nakba of 1948 to the present. This violence, including rape, sexual torture, and humiliation, is carried out with genocidal intent to inflict collective terror and maintain control over Palestinian populations, representing a foundational strategy of the settler-colonial state rather than an aberration.
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Kshama Sawant on Running Against the Dem Establishment, Tara Al-Alami on Israel's Se*ual Violence
Added:I did [music] everything right and they indicted me and I don't know what the I'm doing. [music] Okay, that was a metaphor for the way that we are censored on the left. Uh, hello everybody. Welcome to the Katie Helper Show. We are thrilled to be here with you guys. We have a really wonderful show for you tonight. We have two guests. Uh we have Kashama Sawant talking about her exciting campaign and we have Tara Alami talking about a really important and disturbing report that she and the Palestinian Feminist Collective just worked on which basically documents his uh Israel's use of rape uh and sexualized violence. So uh both uh very important things to be talking about. And before we get started, just some reminders. Thanks again for joining. We do usually stream Tuesdays at 7:00 p.m. as well as Fridays at 12:00 noon. Um, but I was blessed and fortunate enough to go to a screening of a great documentary called American Doctor about three doctors who go to Gaza. Um, we've had all three of those doctors on the Katie Halper Show, Thyra Med, uh, Furo Sidwa, and Dr. uh, Mark Pearl Mutter. So, that was great. We will have them back on. We'll have the filmmaker on. Really amazing documentary. Please do hit the like.
Please do subscribe if you haven't already by pressing subscribe and then the bell. Um, please do become Patreon supporters or YouTube members. And to do that, you go to patreon.com/thekatelper show. Again, that's patreon.com/thekatyhelper show. Or you become YouTube members by hitting subscribe and then join. And um yeah, and this Friday we're going to be having on um very special guests uh to talk about uh the violence in the West Bank, including um Camille, the father uh of Safe, who we've covered before, who was uh murdered uh in the West Bank uh along with Roana. So that will be uh 12 noon on uh Friday. Sorry, I'm sitting on one of these chairs. That's good for your back uh that I'm kneeling on. But that makes it a little bit uh unstable.
Okay. But uh this interview is not going to be stable uh either because it's going to be destabilizing the status quo. Uh the interview will be stable, but the content of it will be disruptive because we are so excited to be bringing back onto the show Kama Sant who was elected to the Seattle City Council in 2013 as the first socialist in nearly a century. She won four elections during a decade in office, overcoming bitter opposition from big business and the Democratic Party. Her office won the nation's highest minimum wage, which is now $21.30 uh per hour. the Amazon tax and landmark renter rights. In the wake of the jobs ruling that dismantled Roie Wade, Shama won publicly funded free abortion in Seattle. She also won the nation's second and strongest resolution against the genocide in Gaza in November 2023.
And now uh she is running for Congress as an independent anti-war socialist and calling for a total arms embargo on Israel and for free healthcare for all funded by taxing the rich. So, I just gave away uh a lot of what she's going to be talking about, but I wanted to make sure that people got all of that in the introduction. So, welcome back to the show, Kama.
>> Thank you so much for having me, Katie.
>> Of course. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, talk about what made you run.
>> You mean for Congress or?
>> Yes, this time. Sorry. Yeah, for Congress. Yeah.
>> Uh, yes. I mean we we are we are in uh dire straits as far as the lives of tens of millions of working-class families in America are concerned and we are in dire states internationally especially if you look at the genocide in Gaza and the incredibly brutal wars that are going on in the entire region with Lebanese, Yemeni, Irani, Iraqi people being slaughtered and uh back home here in the United States we are seeing an unprecedented cost of living crisis. And we're we're also seeing at the same time that we we have this dismal situation that never before in our lifetimes have more numbers of American working people sent a clear signal that they are so fed up with the status quo. They want a fight back. In fact, increasingly polls are showing that people are fed up with the Democratic and Republican parties just as much as they are fed up with Donald Trump. And also people are understanding that the Democratic party didn't actually hasn't actually fought against Trump. And a lot of the agenda that the majority of working people disagree with is a bipartisan agenda for those two parties. And so what we need most desperately is a real shakeup in Congress. We don't need more team players for team genocide and team billionaires. We need a shakeup. We need a disruptor. That is how I used my city council office in Seattle for 10 years and we won the incredibly historic victories that you mentioned and that's why we are now running for Congress.
>> Yeah. Well, great. Thank you for that.
And tell us more about what your um platform consists of.
>> Yes. As you mentioned already, we're fighting for a uh or for an end to all military aid to Israel and for a full permanent arms embargo on Israel. And obviously that means uh really uh building movements uh against the brutal occupation, against the absolutely horrendous conditions that the Palestinians are being subjected to in the entire region. And we're also fighting for free healthcare for all funded by taxing the rich. We're saying that in a very deliberate way, Katie, because we want free health care. We don't want some healthcare in name and then the insurance and the farmer companies and the private hospitals continuing to suck the blood out of the working class. We want free health care of every kind including dental vision and so on. And we want it to be funded by taxing the rich. We're also fighting to shut down ICE and the detention centers and to stop the deportation, stop the militarization of the border.
And we're fighting for full citizenship for all immigrant community members.
We're also fighting to shut down the data centers and the, you know, stop the data centers and stop the mass layoffs as well. Uh, and that's why we are also fighting for a public sector living wage jobs guarantee. And we're also, by the way, fighting for a $25 an hour national minimum wage and for national rent control.
>> Wow, that's great. Now, uh, Kama, you are not a member of DSA, uh, Democratic Socialist of America. you've criticized DSA and DSA candidates. And before we get into that, I want to know what you think the difference is between democratic socialism and socialism or the socialism that you embrace.
>> I am a member of DSA, by the way. I'm a duespaying member of DSA and have been for several years. And uh yeah the the the the fundamental difference is that I am a revolutionary socialist meaning I don't believe that we can actually attain the kind of society we want to attain on the basis of capitalism that it has to be overthrown and replaced with a socialist world and the bare minimum as aspect of that would be to take the big corporations into democratic public ownership by workers and you know use them in order to benefit society. Obviously this is most urgently seen in the need to avert the total climate catastrophe. You know climate crisis is one of the most urgent crisis that is facing humanity. I think I mean there's lots of people in DSA who subscribe to different types of uh ideas but I would say overall uh as far as you you if you look at the DSA you know national page where what they stand for I think what they are talking about is a a capitalist system that is that is much more social democratic like in some of the countries in Western Europe. Now to be clear I want all of that. I'm fighting for all of that. I just don't think one that that is enough but also and most immediately importantly I don't think you can win those kinds of gains without the kind of strategy that I am putting forward which is what I call a class strugglebased fighting strategy that is the strategy that we used in Seattle through my city council office that is the reason we were able to win those victories and I would say that that's a difference in strategy that we have with some of the people >> and so what is the difference between your strategy and the strategy that DSA they employ.
>> So one of the things is running in the Democratic party and for us running in the Democratic party is not in my mind it that is not the starting question. In my mind the starting question is what is the strategy through which we can win the biggest possible victories for the working class. Even if you set aside the question of capitalism itself, we all I think agree that we need uh to win things for the working class that will improve their lives because right now so many people are in just utter misery. I mean this is the richest country in the history of humanity and half of American households are reporting that they can't even afford groceries. So I think we have a lot of broad agreement that we need to win things like free healthcare for all funded by taxing the rich like we're putting forward like a national $25 an hour minimum wage. all of that.
So the question is what is the strategy to win these kinds of victories? And I would say it's no coincidence that it was through my revolutionary city council office that we were able to win the nation's highest minimum wage in Seattle, defeat Jeff Bezos and win the Amazon tax and rental rights that don't exist in most cities in the nation. Uh it's not it's not a coincidence because uh our understanding of the nature of capitalism also me uh it also uh means that we have a certain kind of strategy meaning we recognize that the Democratic party and the Republican party are the institutions of capitalism and that we have to fight against them in order to be able to fight against the billionaire class. I mean they're not you know they're not the billionaires of course but they are representatives. they are political spokespeople of the billionaires and you can only win against the billionaire class against the capitalist class uh if you fight against the they are political spokespeople as well and so the question is do do we agree that we need the kind of strategy that I'm talking about a fighting strategy where you expose the politicians who are betraying the working class and you build mass movements in order to win victories and if we agree I'm not assuming that everybody agrees but I'm just saying for the sake of argument if we agree agree with that then it leads to the corollary question of can you carry out that strategy inside the Democratic party and the answer that the Democratic party itself has shown is emphatically unknown. I mean look at what happened in 2016. Bernie Sanders had a campaign that was electrifying the working class. He called for a political revolution against the billionaire class. I supported his campaign. I spoke at his rallies >> and we campaigned for him. We we we literally canvased for him. But at the same time, we were also honest and said that the Democratic Party will never allow this agenda to be carried out in their party and that they would throw him out uh you know as a as a nominee.
They would not appoint him as a nominee uh and they would find some way or another to do that and they did both times in 2016 and 2020. They found a way to remove him. And so that really proves our point in my view that the Democratic Party is not a vehicle for carrying out the kind of fight back that's needed. So it's not a coincidence that we with one socialist office we were able to win the kinds of victories that unfortunately DSA electeds even with their many you know 300 or so offices haven't been able to win. So, I'm sorry. I don't mean to focus on these kind of nerdy or um wonky distinctions, but you are a member of DSA and you're also a member of another party. Correct.
>> I'm a Yeah, I'm a member of revolutionary workers and we also more broadly we founded worker strikeback which is very important because worker strikeback has a political program. You know, anybody can go and check our website. We voted our members voted uh we had a democratic discussion and vote on the program of worker strike back and worker strike back doesn't demand that you agree with us on revolutionary socialism but what we do fight we fight for all the demand all the demands in my campaign the many of them are reflected in worker strike back and worker strike back is also fighting this is part of our program for a new party for the working class because we don't believe that the democratic party is the way forward >> so I've heard you say critical things many of which I agree with on Zora Mamdani but how do you judge his uh certain moves of his especially things that you yourself are fighting for like the rent freeze so how does that fit into your calculation is it that Zoran Mam Donnie's various victories um are steps in the right direction and you're excited to see them happening even if you think maybe the overall strategy is um is not the the the way to go. How do you kind of reconcile these things?
>> Yeah, I I don't think there's any uh contradiction in what we're saying because our starting point is non sectarianism. And I just want to define quickly what I mean by sectarianism is uh the idea that you would not fight for the working class or not prioritize the ideas of the working class uh because you are what's more important for you is your whatever internal differences or on the left or you are you want to build your own little organization and you're not you're going to stand in the way of what's in the what's in the interest of the working class. So we have a very it's a it's a a completely non sectarian approach meaning any victory for the working class is a victory that we celebrate and so yeah absolutely I support the rent freeze that that was won in New York and in fact when when the campaign was on you know during the election year and also since then I have constantly said that I strongly support the demands that he was running on. In fact I also talked about how it was correct for him and I agreed with it.
This is how I run my campaign that emphasizing the demands at all times.
That is what Bernie Sanders was also doing. I mean, I have disagreements with Bernie Sanders, but that's a correct thing to do. You emphasize the demands.
You don't run on personality or personal narrative. You talk about what you're fighting for because that's what the working class shows up for because they want to s see what what is you know what is how is their life going to change.
And so I agreed with all of that. I also said and I still say and I said it to Russell Dabler just now that that if there's a movement to win $30 an hour minimum wage in New York which was one of the demands on his platform I will personally come to New York and help build the fight. So absolutely we we want all of that. But do I do I think that those are that the strategy is a step in the right direction? No, I don't agree. I mean those reforms do we want them? Of course. But I don't agree that it that we can actually change the society in the way that we want to, you know, by having the strategy of trying to keep the peace with the Kathy Hoklls and the Hakeim Jeff and all of that of this world. No, I I don't agree with that. I have a very clear disagreement about that. I really disagreed with him endorsing Kathy Hokll especially. I mean she's an arch Zionist so you I don't think any socialist has any business endorsing Zionists and he has also endorsed Hakeem Jeff is absolutely just not acceptable. Uh but he but on top of that he endorsed Kathy Hokll in the middle of the nurser strike in New York.
At the same time that Hokll was delivering executive orders that made it easier for the hospital bosses to hire scabs to undermine the strike. That's no. You you can't do that. But you know it raises a deeper question. It's not just about you know it's not about oh what was your position on this or that and and are we going to judge them in isolation? No, it's a question of what does it actually indicate? It indicates a difference in strategy and this is a fundamental difference is that that um in order to win something we need to keep the peace with people like Kathy Hokll and Hakeim Jeff that's the idea that's the it's not just Mani this is the ideas of the DSA leadership that we disagree with and there's an it's an open disagreement >> and I disagree with that because you can't actually win the kinds of victories first of all in the here and now you can't actually win the kinds of victories that we have won in Seattle that that scale of victories if you are trying to keep the peace because when you're trying to keep the peace you uh what what the reforms that you are able to eke out are far smaller than what you are able to win if you build an a a movement that is in antagonism to the people in power to the people like Kathy Hokll. So when people say well you know he has to be nice to her because you know she controls the the purse strings of the state. My response to that is yeah I mean yes technically she does but you know these are not these things are not etched in stone in the sense that the power dynamic under capitalism. The balance of power is all the question is always between the working class and the ruling class. And unless working class the working class builds mass movements the power dynamic is always in the hands of the powerful people. So there is no option but to build mass movements. But when you do build mass movements it completely changes the power dynamic from away from the bosses and their political servants to the workers. I mean, when I was calling for $15 an hour minimum wage in C in in my 2013 election, everybody in the Democratic party, uh, even the Labor leaders, all of them called me called it utopian.
They mocked me in on our campaign that it it would never been won because everybody was proceeding from the framework of well, what can you get while keeping the peace, while leaders keeping the peace with the bosses and their representatives, while having cordial relations? And uh we didn't we didn't prioritize I mean I'm not looking to have any disagreement with anyone uh just for the sake of it but we didn't prioritize me keeping cordial relations with these powerful people. We prioritized building mass movements and it was the fact that the working class of Seattle absolutely embraced the $15 demand which is why I won that election that year that completely changed the dynamic. And in fact, the Seattle Times, which is no fan of mine, they were forced to admit that this momentum was set because of my election victory that you know that that and they said that I came and I when I say I it means our movement came from nowhere to come and dear the city's political agenda and that $15 an hour was happening at lightning speed. Now all of that was uh you know part of that strategy that won that was an understanding that you cannot prioritize cozy relations with powerful people. You will end up antagonizing them. You know antagonizing them may not be the goal but they will be antagonized because of the class difference that there's there's a class line there's a class divide. They represent the ruling class we represent the working class. So in order to fight for the working class we do have to carry out the kind of movement building that we need to do. I mean one question is you know there were 50,000 people or so that that was claimed that that that um campaigned for Mamani last year. I what what needs to be done is those people need to be mobilized into fighting for big shifts in in New York.
And I'll just say one thing in in the in the case of you know as I said I totally support the rent freeze but we have to keep in mind there were three rent freezes under Bill Delasio. And what really needs to be happening in addition to the rent freeze is also a fight for massive taxes on the rich and also to to build affordable housing and to save the nicha housing the the public housing that is right now on the chopping block.
Mandani didn't start that but he's also not stopping it. I would if I were if I were there, I would mobilize the thousands of people who campaigned for me into action in order to save that public housing because it is yet another gift on a golden platter to the real estate industry, to the Wall Street interest. And we have to stop that and we have to keep in mind that the vast majority of people in New York are not going to benefit from the rent freeze.
So the rent freeze victory needs to be built on to win bigger victories and and those and and the process of doing that will antagonize Kathy Hokll and others.
>> Right. Uh one just one um slight correction is that I think um Zora Dani did not endorse Hakeim Jeff but he did not get behind a potential challenge from Chio who some people wanted to to challenge Jeff. Um, >> no. He No, he No, that was earlier, but later on a new show, he did he said he endorsed Hakeim Jeff.
>> Oh, really? Okay. Wow.
>> Okay. Um, okay, cool. So, you corrected me then. Um, okay. So, I wanted to go on um to to talk about Adam Smith um uh and who you are challenging, the member of Congress. And also let's take a look at his recent appearance on uh Breaking Points where he was interviewed by Crystal Ball.
>> So, so you know, if you have a situation where Israel is threatened on all sides and I know it's like, well, no, it's not saying they don't have a right to exist, just they have to let all the Palestinians back in and then effectively the Jews no longer control Israel. Okay. Well, don't I'm sorry, but don't you like as an idea of equal rights for all ethnicities something that you in theory support as a Democrat?
>> Well, well, well, sure, but but the the practical result of this is if you say there should be equal rights within Israel, but if Israel allows they cease to exist as a country.
>> No, they cease to exist as a Jewish ethnostate. That's very different from ceasing to exist as a country. But come on, come on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Why is this?
>> No, no, no. We got to drill down an >> issue for us taxpayers.
>> We we we we got to we got to drill down on that. Okay. Okay.
>> Okay. Just to say and then I'll let you comment, but like the condescenses and interrupting and uh we like talking to her like she's a child. Okay.
>> All right. They cease to exist as an ethnost state. So basically Jews would live in Palestine and be governed by the Palestinians by the Arabs. Okay. And and maybe that's just what has to happen in the minds of some people, but understand the consequences of it. Understand why Israel was created in the first place so that the >> imperialism >> Jews would have some place to go. Okay.
>> As opposed to the West, which didn't want to let them in >> and to just bliply say, well, you know, it'll go away and it'll be fine. So that's >> Well, I mean, shout out to Smith for unintentionally admitting it's an ethnostate, but what is your response to to this?
>> First of all, just as you noted, Katie, just this guy, he his perennial complaint is that the left doesn't engage in civil debate, civil discourse, people talking over each other. He always accuses anti-war activists of talking over people they don't agree with. And look at this interview. As you said, he was dripping with condescension and he barely allowed her to finish a sentence each time. He just kept interrupting interrupting just continually. I mean, it was just horrible. I mean, kudos to Crystal Ball for uh asking him hard questions despite all that. Uh and yeah, and as far as his position is concerned, I mean, it is just untenable. I mean as you said Katie already the Israeli state as it exists right now the apartheid ethnic cleansing state is a creation of a project of capitalism as specifically American and British capitalism and the state as it exists right now plays the role of a garrison state for capitalist interests you know keeping keeping a tamp down on working-class rebellion in a region that is geopolitically and economically extremely crucial, you know, with with its location and also with the all the oil reserves. And so it is abs the existence of this apartheid state, the continued existence of it of it in that region is very much tied to the powers of capitalism. And so uh we you know we will need militant movements to to to address this both in the region which in has to include the working class of Egypt also because that's the biggest section of the working class in the region and it needs militant movements here as well. And what are we talking about? We are talking about a state as I said that is an apartate state that is carrying out ethnic cleansing and that cle that that all of that occupation is coming in such brutal forms obviously the genocide looms large on us but it's long before the genocide it's also the brutal settlements in fact the settlements are escalating the genocide is expanding to the West Bank I mean it is unbelievable it's unimaginable literally people's Palestinian people's land being stolen at gunpoint and their homes being bulldozed. All of this needs to stop. All of this needs to stop. In other words, the Israeli state as it exists, you know, the Israeli state of apart and ethnic cleansing, that state needs to be smashed. That needs to happen. And for that to happen, like I said before, we will need almighty mass movements of the working class in the region regionwide. It can't just be left to people in the Palestinian lands because that will not be enough. We will need unity across the region of the working class and we will need militant movements in the US because the Israeli state exists at the behest of the billionaire class as a whole but specifically the billionaire class in the United States and that means it's also uh exists at the behest of the Democratic and Republican parties who represent the interests of the billionaires and that is why the you know today's NDA vote you you you saw Adam Smith vote against it But this is his own bill. The only reason [laughter] the only reason he voted against it because he's so nervous about our campaign and the fact that he asked to go on Breaking Points also shows that he is extremely anxious about our about our campaign. So my my appeal to all your viewers would be if he is so nervous just in the primary election, imagine what impact we could have if we had the chance to advance to the November election. And obviously we have to be one of the top two vote getters to go into the November election. But that is why we need the help to do that. But that's the impact we can have. This guy votes against his own bill. That's how nervous he is. But at the same time, we should point out that the Democratic party and the Republican party together figured out a way to get this bill to pass. So in other words, they're willing to have political theater of Adam Smith voting no on his own bill, >> but making sure that the bill is passing nonetheless. So the Zionist interests have not been affected in any way. In fact, the danger is the opposite. The danger is that people look at Adam Smith's boat and think, "Oh, he's having a change of heart." But he is not. In that same show with Crystal Ball, he said, "I don't have any regrets." you know, literally when she asked him about the genocide and everything, she said, "I" he said, "I don't have any regrets."
On top of that, we should note that just in the month of June, he has taken over $51,000 from NORPAC and Apac, which are both notoriously pro- genocide, pro-ethnic cleansing packs. And so, no, there is no stopping point that he has reached or some, you know, some new revelations to him that, oh, it's been brutal.
Absolutely not. He is a leading wararmonger. He's the ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee and he is only taking these performative votes in order to make in order to try and launder his blood drenched reputation and we can't allow him to do that.
>> Right. So, uh tell people more about this NDA uh his bill uh and and it actually was just uh voted on today. So, tell people more about it. We talked about it a little bit too um with Dennis Cassinich.
>> Yes. As you said, yeah, this was voted on just a few hours ago. This is the bill that is going to uh to allocate a trillion new dollars for war spending uh enormously escalate funding for weaponry for Israel and also fuse the US and Israeli militaries. I mean, this bill is as dystopian as they come, and it's being authored by Adam Smith, my opponent, and by Mike Rogers, the Republican chair of the House Armed Services Committee. So, in other words, these wars that are happening right now and the funding of the genocide, yes, Trump is leading that, but they are absolutely bipartisan wars. It is bipartisan. These bills are literally being co-authored by Republicans and Democrats together. And so this is uh this is a bill that not only has this whopping number of trillion trillion and 1.15 trillion dollars for war spending but the fusing of the US and Israeli military. It's also an extremely just frightening proposition. And one of the reasons they are trying to do that is precisely because there is a change in consciousness in the American society for the first time in the nearly 80 years of Israel's existence. you know, for the first time they are um they meaning the Republicans and Democrats and the Zionist lobby that funds them both. They are not able to convince the majority of the American working class that all of this money going to the war profiteeers and all of the bloodshed and slaughter in the Middle East that is somehow good for their lives. I mean the American people's lives that that that is no longer passing muster. And so there is huge anger. We saw seemingly invincible incumbents being defeated in the New York City and the Colorado Democratic primaries. And a big part of that was anger against the spending for is you know war spending for Israel. And so what they are trying to do, what the Democrats and Republicans are trying to do is to find a way to bypass the votes altogether so that no politician has to actually say yes, I voted for genocide or I voted for Israel funding. Just bypass it altogether. That is what's so dystopian and frightening about the fusing of the US and Israeli militaries.
But I would say that, you know, that alongside the trillion dollars, all of this makes this bill an absolutely horrific bill. And this bill was introduced just last month. So Adam Smith has not ch had any change of heart. He's just looking at the primary election that's coming up. He's looking at the momentum that our campaign is having, which it really does have a lot of momentum on the ground. We've been endorsed by the Stranger newspaper, which is objectively the most significant endorsement in this in this area in the Seattle area, and he's getting really nervous. And which is not to say that we can get complacent. I just wanted to share with your viewers.
We have an uphill task because this is, you know, as I said, we have to get one of the top two highest votes. And we we're not only running against Adam Smith, there's a Republican in the race who has openly declared that he's running against me. He's he's running to take votes away from me. He's not running against Adam Smith. And there's also another Democrat in the race who's effectively doing that, you know, taking votes away from our campaign. So, we have an uphill task, but we have a real shot to get into the November election, and we hope that, you know, everybody will help us do that, >> right? Well, um it is pretty incredible, by the way, that he changed his vote uh after a month, right? Like what possibly changed like what could have changed was Netanyahu? Because he claims that it was about Netanyahu, right? like people like uh Bengavir and Smootrich that's what he made him change his mind on the merging of the Israeli um and American militaries and of course he said that's not what the bill does but that is what it does but what on earth could have happened I mean obviously this was strategic not a moral call right this was or nor was it a an evidence-based call because it's not like Israel changed its genocide over the past month >> yeah I I'll tell you what changed in that one month and you're Right. Even when when the House Armed Services Committee held its vote, there were he was absolutely cheerleading it, you know, every step of the way. His own bill and he was really proud of it. He released press releases and all of that.
You know what changed is we got the stranger endorsement.
>> Oh, right.
>> And that is when it really I mean we we've our campaign's demands and our track record all of that has been extremely popular with all the working people we talked to. But it was true that because of the corporate media invisibilizing us, you could have imagined that our campaign, you know, would would not would not succeed. And like I said, even right now, we can't give any guarantees. We have to fight for every vote right now. We have to be very sober about that. But the point is undeniably that after the stranger endorsement, everything changed. There is a real dynamic around our campaign.
It's like it's it's just there's an incredible momentum uh about this uh cam campaign and that is what has is now making him very nervous and that is why he also reached out to breaking points.
But I I don't think the interview went the way he wanted to go.
>> Yeah. Um that so it really does speak to the power of uh political pressure, right? And the power of having someone else shift the discourse. Now we've talked about this a few times recently.
It's it's a mixed blessing, right? We have to be vigilant about this because it's of course a great sign of progress that APEC and support of Israel uh is being seen increasingly as politically toxic and that's great but what that means now and this is new is that people will performatively move away like Adam Smith right from his own bill um without actually embracing it on a fundamental level right so he kind of does performatively um so what are your thoughts on this like it's a victory and it's also something we have to make sure that we're not tricked by.
>> Yes, it's absolutely both. It's a victory and we have to keep building on that victory without getting tricked by what by the just the superficial appearance of it. We should we should absolutely claim his changed vote as a victory for the anti-war movement because he's feeling the pressure. It's it's very much a victory for our campaign because that is specifically the threat he's facing. It's not Look, there is an entire mood against Israel right now. Yes. And I'm sure Adam Smith does not like it. But the specific thing that worries him is his election. He he wants to win his election. And if we weren't running in the race, he wouldn't be worried at all. And even even as as you pointed out correctly, even until about a month ago, he was hoping that he could get away with everything he's doing because of the maneuver that the Republican and Democratic party have played against us in this primary election where this one Republican and this one Democrat, they're both, you know, the other Democrat, they're both running to take votes away from us effectively. So and uh so you know I think he was pretty uh confident overall but now things have shifted the dynamic has shifted and he is nervous and so our task is to not get complacent about that and understand that he's still the same guy the same genocidal guy and he's still taking money from the Zionist lobby and the war profiters you should see his filings for June I mean it's incredible the amount of money he has from executives in Palunteer Loheed Martin, you know, and as I said, the Zionist packs. So, nothing's changed other than the fact that he's nervous about his election. So, what we should do is go deeper, you know, like try to win, right? Try our best. We get into the November election and then turn that election into an electrifying campaign.
And this is the reason that he and the Zionists and the billionaire class are afraid that obviously nobody can guarantee that anybody can win the election. Especially as an independent socialist, as somebody who is fighting against the establishment, things are always hard. None of my elections has been easy. We won all our four elections in Seattle, but none of them was easy. I always say if your re-election is a cakewalk, then you're not really fighting for the working class because you don't pose a threat to the ruling class, you know, because that's the way it is. Uh, so it's never going to be easy, but here's the deal. If we get into the November election, it will absolutely, and I'm not saying this just because it's my campaign, it will objectively be the most important race to watch because it will be archionist wararmonger Adam Smith against a revolutionary socialist. And we will relentlessly, we will be relentless in our campaign to expose his record. There will also be debates. That's another thing Katie I forgot to mention. He keeps talking about oh can we just have a civil debate career civil debate while not allowing Crystal to say a word you know like he keeps speaking over her.
You know this guy who this guy's he presented himself as some big debate lover. There has not been a single debate in this primary election. There was just one debate that was going to happen not even in public. The stranger interview. He didn't show up for that interview because he didn't want to be because that they do do it as a debate.
They don't interview separately. They do it as a debate. Uh and he refused to show up and he sent a pouting letter to the stranger about various grievances.
And uh you know so that this guy who apparently loves to debate he he didn't even show up to a debate because he's so afraid of confronting us. And in the general election though November election he will not have a choice.
There will be debates. I know there will be debates because that will be too important. So he will this is this is an absolutely historic opportunity to expose him in that way and potentially win the election. But for that we need to uh get out the vote in this primary election. And we've already seen the impact of just our campaign gaining some momentum. He's suddenly now v voting no on his own bill.
>> Right. It's crazy. So, and I also want to show because as you've pointed out, he really likes presenting himself as as a fan of uh civility and debate and you know, we see this constantly this kind of weaponization of civility and it's it's especially disgusting when it's someone who has been supportive of a genocide like we're supposed to care about decorum but not blowing up kids.
So when he he he released this statement um about his vote in support of the Massie amendment which was cutting off funding um and uh he said I'm deeply concerned about the tactics used by those on the far left to advocate for fighting cutting off aid to Israel. To date my family and I have had our home vandalized. A fires been set in my driveway. My neighbors lives have been disrupted by demonstrations in the middle of the night. Town halls meant to be forums for dialogue have been shut down. and a staff member has been physically assaulted. Those who engage in this type of behavior model a dangerous form of corrosive politics that seeks to intimidate those who disagree with them. We must be able to have civil discourse if we want to solve difficult problems and I remain committed to open respectful engagement.
So what is your response to this statement?
>> He doesn't he doesn't have any respect for any type of debate or discourse. In fact, he never shows up for debates and he uh it is spec precisely what you're saying. It's a weaponization of decorum.
Yeah. You're you're funding the blowing up of kids and as uh as was pointed out in breaking points, you know, the biggest number of child amputes. Oh, that's okay. But oh, God forbid you say something challenging. You you know, you're and you're not showing the appropriate decorum for a 29year incumbent.
All of this is political gaslighting.
This idea that somehow the left that the anti-war left is somehow at fault. I I'm sure you heard this before. I think in 2024 or 2025, he said he called anti-war activists left-wing fascists and demanded that they be arrested. Uh and he's saying basically the same thing.
And I don't know about all these other things that he's claiming happened, but as far as people being able to do a peaceful protest uh somewhere in the vicinity of his house, why should not why why is that not fair game when you like, you know, this guy is literally funding the blowing up of the homes and the bodies of the people in pal in in in Gaza and also in Lebanon. But that's okay. But God forbid a peaceful protest march come anywhere within 50 feet of your house, which is where we were. I mean, we carried out a protest, peaceful protest. We were not, it was not literally right at his house. It was several feet away from them from it. But he's complaining about that. And you know something, Katie, I don't know if this has made national news, but the political establishment is so in lock step with all of this Zionist agenda that in Belleview, which is the local city he lives in, which is part of our congressional district where I'm running, the Belleview City Council just a few weeks ago literally passed a law that says you cannot protest movements cannot go near any elected officials houses only to protect Adam Smith because he's the only one getting protested because he's the genocidal guy. So, you know, people are protesting him. Can you believe this?
>> You can't tolerate that. Then don't run for public office or don't be in public office, right?
>> Or or maybe don't fund genocide.
>> Oh, well, that too, right? Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
That's that that would be even better.
But it but it's just so funny. I mean, it's like these people who ask for so much sympathy uh sympathy they don't afford the people of Palestine, obviously. Uh or protesters, right? they are uh they're fine backing uh the the most like I mean it's genocidal but it's also like such it's hard to even use this word bullying but it's just so you know Israel is so good at like killing kids right this is like at not combat this is I mean there is there's Hamas resistance but what they're really good at is like doing things from a distance and avoiding risking their lives at all costs um and it is just amazing to see this guy kind of call for civility when he again is is funding a genocide and also a genocide that happens to be fought in the most bullying. Uh it's it's almost like I mean it's an understatement but it's just so it's just so it's such an irony because there's absolutely uh like no parody there. Uh it's not a war, it's a genocide. And to hear him kind of like crying about that about the way that he's being treated is is really rich.
So, Shama, I want to ask you about um this Breaking Points interview. And I think that you know, I've been on Crystal's show. Crystal has been on this show. Uh I think she actually did an excellent job uh exposing the kind of rank hypocrisy of um of Adam Smith. Um but you wrote a a post on X in response to this appearance. Um and let's take let's uh put this post on the screen.
This is your uh this is Shama's tweet about Crystal's interview.
>> I don't think that we have that set up, Katie. I didn't see that in the rundown.
>> Uh okay. Is that uh is that there? Um uh Nate, >> but if you give me a moment, I'm sure that I can >> Okay. Sorry about that.
>> Yes. Uh yeah, my apologies for that. I don't it was supposed to be in the rundown so we will have that in one second >> and I don't know if you were saving it for later but in the meantime we also had um one or two additional clips from that >> uh yeah sure let's uh so what do we have um we have >> uh we have um >> sorry about this we put this uh let's see um >> well we have one clip about him talking about the abolishing ICE and then u an additional one where he breaks down why according to him why he was not voting for the >> okay let's watch that one please >> okay >> thank you >> because I'll tell you the concerns you know from me personally I think shared a lot by our audience is you are well aware there is a reckoning happening with regard to the US relationship with Israel especially in the Democratic party and so what appears from the outside is that while votes are increasingly becoming difficult for Israel to win in terms of overt aid being granted this would be a way to secure the Israelus US relationship ationship without having that transparency and that democratic accountability that would come from a vote. So that's the the concern is that it would make the Israeli US military relationship more entrenched in a way that lacks any sort of democratic accountability.
>> Yeah. No, I don't agree with that at all. I mean we're talking about >> what are your concerns then?
>> Oh, sorry. Two different questions here.
My concern is I don't support the Netanyahu government and I certainly don't support what Ben Gavir and Smoke are doing. And that's been, I think, the real challenge for me is Israel has a right to exist. Israel is threatened um profoundly by Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran.
So, how do we help them defend themselves? Well, at the same time, they've got a government that's frankly out of control.
>> Okay. Again, none of that none of that changed, but what what I mean, what's your response to to that? Well, it is again, you know, it's like moving the goalpost like in the sense that they they were blightly bombing or funding the bombing of Palestinian people for so many years and the brutal occupation, the settlements, all of that. Now that there is a little bit of reckoning on that, now they're making it all about Netanyahu. Obviously Netanyahu is a monstrous individual, but this is a question of the whole state, the whole apartheid state as a as a whole. And so this is a way for uh Adam Smith to try to find an out of this by saying well you know I think it's Netanyahu's fault and I'm you know I'm certainly against it. And also if you've noticed throughout that show um uh you know Katie he the way he spoke as if he's well two things two observations and this is part of how the the corporate discourse you know that ends up befuddling what you know genuine people because of the way it's presented. One is that he makes his his tone sound so reasonable like you know he's the genocidal guy. He is the one with an absolutely shockingly inhumane and murderous agenda but somehow he makes it you know the way he speaks you're supposed to think that this is all reasonable and all of that. And then the other thing is saying that uh this uh this is all uh you know this is all happening uh even you know he talked about the austerity like oh yeah it's happening. What do you mean it's happening? You have been in office for 29 years. You were one of the instigators of all of this you know. So he acts like he is uh if you didn't think about this carefully he sounds like he was just an innocent bystander and that he has the same critique you do. He kept saying repeatedly when when Crystal was presenting various positions, she would say, "Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you." What do you mean? You are one of the main wararm mongers. You are one of the art science.
You are an apac darling. What the hell do you mean? And so look at look at his whole track record, right? We've already covered his record on the wars and the genocide and all of that.
>> Oh yeah, and the Iraq war too, right?
>> And the Iraq war. He's one of the remaining five House Democrats who voted for the Iraq war. and he voted for the Graham Leech Blly act which was part of the dismantling of the regulations which which was in part responsible for the great recession in 2008. Then under both Bush and Obama he voted to bail out the big banks repeatedly leaving ordinary people in the lurch including homeowners. A lot of that uh a lot of those homes were made it made over to private equity which is the single biggest reason why rents are also skyrocketing because now you know Wall Street firms own a lot of this rental housing and he also voted to cut hundreds of billions of dollars from Medicare and Medicaid. This was long before Trump came along. So and he has cut tens of billions of dollars from public housing. I mean on and on and on it goes. He voted to create ICE. He has voted to fund ICE to the tune of nearly $115 billion dollars. I mean my campaign did this calculation.
So this across the board he is responsible for war, genocide and austerity against the American working people and he acts like he's just been he's just an innocent observer. This guy is one of the most villainous in the Democratic party and he really needs to be taken out. Can I just point out the King County uh you know the de King County Democratic Party's um progressive voters guide just came out and they have endorsed three Zionist pro- genocide Democrats Susan Delbane, Kim Shrier and Adam Smith. They've endorsed this is the >> and they're called progressive.
>> Yes, this is the progressive voters guide and in in that they say something like unfortunately over the course of his tenure in Congress Smith has been criticized for his more hawkish foreign policy stances. So in other words, look look at the gaslighting here too. Like not that he's being criticized for his positions his uh that that his sorry that his positions are bad. He's like and unfortunate. He's like the criticism is unfortunate.
>> That's the lamentable thing. not not his actual positions. It's then he's been smeared. Except by smeared we mean literally reported on.
>> Yes. And then he then it goes on to say his foreign policy stances have drawn protests at his home and you know so it's like basically meant to create sympathy for this guy.
>> Right. Right. Again why does that m like okay yes uh protests at his home versus bombings at people's homes in Gaza or you know I mean uh rape. How about uh torture? Uh like the the bombings and targetings of hospitals. Um it's it is really wow. And they call themselves progressive. That is that is really disgusting.
>> Seriously. And all the evidence that Israel is targeting children.
>> Yes.
>> And journalists and medical professionals. I mean it's horrific.
>> It's not collateral damage. It's it's intentional. Yeah. And I really urge everyone to see this documentary um American Doctor. And you know they're they they use snipers like they target the kids and and as one of the doctors Furo Sidwa points out like you don't get these numbers by accident. You don't get these higher numbers by accident. And the rate is like hundreds of times higher than it is in in Russia for instance. So it's not like this this doesn't just go with the territory. And um you know it's it's really fascinating because uh or disturbing. you see this documentary show some media clips and they're like, "Well, of course we can't uh confirm that. CNN can't confirm uh any of these claims." And another thing that you see is like again, and this is an example of how um complicit the media is. You know, you hear people saying things like, "Well, they were hiding a terrorist or using this hospital uh for military support." Like, first of all, it's almost always not true. But even if it were, that's a war crime. you're not allowed to just do anything you want because there is someone like that in a hospital. Um it's I mean it's it's just stunning. But so so speaking of media and critiques um you as I was saying um you uh responded to Crystal Ball's uh I would say very good interview with um Adam Smith. Uh let's take let's just throw your tweet up on the on the screen. We won't read the whole thing.
I'm just going to quote uh one part of it. So hold on a second. So, you wrote um uh how does it serve the cause of Palestinian liberation for you to platform Adam Smith and to not even mentioned that there is an anti-war socialist challenger to him? So, expand on that and has anyone from uh Breaking Points reached out to you since then? Um and and what are your thoughts on the on the overall uh interview?
>> Yeah, the interview itself was pretty good. I mean, Crystal did a great job uh you know, just uh holding him, you know, just never letting him weasel away from from the positions that he was uh carrying out.
>> And she kept her cool, which I couldn't have done. I would have been so frustrated uh by how condescending he was. So, >> absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah.
Absolutely. Props for that. No, no doubt. Uh, and I think that these types of hard-hitting interviews are necessary and they've happened too too few of them do happen and as it turned out this one happened because Adam Smith reached out to her and I probably he had some convoluted idea that it was going to be good for his campaign. Uh, but and and also because he's under threat from our campaign. So the whole happening, the occurring of the interview, the basis of that is that he is feeling threatened from our campaign. So it's just jarring to have that whole interview happened as good as it was, which I'm not denying, to not even mention that he has a an opponent who is credible enough that this guy is running scared from his own bill, >> right? Yeah.
>> You know, that is that is real credibility. I mean, you know, if you want if you want a sign of how much momentum this campaign has and potential that it has and that you should help this campaign and so and that that's one point and the other thing I would say is that uh it is it is like I said it is really important that we have such interviews where where these politicians who always have cozy time in at NBC or CNN that they really be forced to answer some tough questions. That's important.
But I will also say that that in itself is no threat to him as long as he gets to win his re-election and he will win if I don't get into the November election. If I get into the November election, then it's in real question whether he wins or not. But if I don't get in, then he's it's a cakewalk for him.
>> Right. Right.
>> But so I I don't I don't agree that it it really provides any kind of challenge uh in itself to this agenda of Zionism and the billionaires. If we are not presenting actual threats to their very existence, in other words, the best way to expose a politician and really really hold their feet to the fire, if you want to use that phrase, is to present an actual challenge to their career. Right now, Adam Smith is scared not because of a gen generally existing mood of anti-ionism. He's scared of of losing his own election. That is the specific thing he's scared about. And so I don't understand how journalistically it is it makes sense for you know 45 minute interview to be done and not even mention that there is somebody running against him who has won previous elections. Even if you think that this campaign doesn't is not strong enough to go forward to the November election. Two things are true. one is that I have a whole track record of winning all my elections and winning uh you know historic victories like the nation's highest minimum wage and also the demands we are running on those are very powerful demands they're very they're very um that those are demands that the working class wants to hear about that is why we have this momentum from this campaign because these demands are so popular ending all military aid and ending and and a permanent arms embargo you know we have other demands too but there was a topic of the interview. So that's why I'm mentioning those. So I do think that it is important that journalists talk about our campaign and also interview our campaign because it is not I don't agree with this sort of circular logic that and and this is not crystal ball but I think Ryan Grim said something to this effect that that uh well she something to the effect of it's not a quote paraphrasing that but it's not a viable campaign so I'm not going to help make it viable you know so because we we are not viable on day one we become viable by building the campaign by left interviewers interviewing us like this interview today. Th this is what helps us build the momentum. And so I think everybody has a collective responsibility to build that kind of momentum if we actually want to build the anti-war movement and we actually want to end the genocide. So ultimately, yeah, I don't I want to be clear. I don't have any uh personal grievances with anybody on breaking points. What I want is for this campaign to succeed and get into the November election. And so with that goal in mind, I think it's crucial that uh we have this campaign covered everywhere else. And also just to make make it clear how viable this campaign is, we've raised $700,000.
This as an independent socialist campaign, the median donation of our campaign is $25. The median donation of Adam Smith's campaign is $1,000. So you know clearly we have and we have eight and a half more times you know eight and a half times more donors than independent donors than him than he does. In other words far more numbers of people are donating to our campaign but obviously the average amount they're donating is smaller because they are not Loheed Martin executives campaign. So but but but it is far from a French campaign. It is not a French campaign.
It is an actual campaign with real chance. So it's absurd. It would be absurd to argue that it is not. But like I said, I I have no personal u bad feelings towards anybody, any particular person on the left. What I want is for this campaign to succeed because it is in the interests of the Palestinian people and the working class. That is why I appreciate uh Crystal uh re reaching out and she, you know, I sent her a message and uh I messaged uh Ryan Grim also and then they're going to have me on on Monday.
>> There you go. But I'm going to say it's the Katie Halper Show bump. No matter what. Yes.
>> No matter what the the chronology is, we're gonna say it was the Katy Halper Show.
>> Hey, there's there's a Katie Helper bump. No matter what. Don't underestimate that. I'm not even joking.
It's really true.
>> Yes. Thank you. Um and this is And your election is coming up really soon. And there you go. Defeat Apac. Elect the socialists who beat the billionaires. Um do you want to I mean I think it's worth showing Brian's response. Uh I'm glad that it sounds like you guys are moving forward, but I would like to respond to it. Um again, not in a vicious way. I think that it raises important issues.
So, let's show uh Ryan's response to someone um I guess pressuring Ryan and Breaking Points or Drop Site News to have Shama on.
>> I think it was Brianna Joy Gray's.
Yes. And Brianna of course has had you on as a big supporter of yours. So, someone brought up your the fact that you had been endorsed by the Stranger, right? And um Ryan goes the Stranger endors and again I think Ryan does very good work. I've and I he's been on the show and he will in the future. Um, the stranger endorsement is a good argument.
I see. Shama also just got an endorsement from Seattle Gay News, which helps make the case, too. This is the kind of thing I've been asking for.
Evidence the campaign is real and not just a waste of working people's money.
Instead, the argument I get back is quote, "You're a Democratic sheep dog, shill, whatever." End quote. The case against Sant is that she can't build a coalition big enough to win because she and her followers are sectarians more interested in attacking DSA or those close to them than building a coalition.
And the response to this just fortifies that reputation. But if the campaign has real juice, I don't care about that.
Happy to have her on. Also, nobody from the campaign itself has reached out to me to pitch an interview. If somebody from the campaign wants to reach out and make the pitch, I'm happy to hear it and open to any serious insurgent campaign.
That's how every other campaign does it because that's what makes sense. And also, you guys are overrating the power of of a BP or drop site breaking point or drop site interview, but that's fine.
I'm happy happy for people to do that.
Anyway, DMs are open. Just make the case. End quote. So, I do think though that a few things. One is that it's it's kind of not up to I would say I understand like coverage and this is something a lot of us don't want to admit but co I mean coverage choices and interview choices there is a a kind of in some ways an inherent endorsement on some level right you may not be saying go vote for this person but there is something perhaps legitimizing although obviously they had on Adam Smith and that was the opposite of legitimizing right that was like totally uh scathing and and rightly Oh. Um, but I also think that there's a self-fulfilling prophecy issue here, which is that someone's not viable perhaps because they don't get media, right? That is like, so when you put them on the show, you're helping them become more viable. But also, I just think it's newsworthy, like someone's race, whether or not you think it's a viable race. And certainly, we've seen examples like, you know, I have friends who were big Zoron supporters who called it a vanity campaign at the beginning. Um, and so I I think that there's a lot of stuff to like this does raise a lot of important questions and I'm glad that it looks like they will have you uh have you on, but also even to the extent like let's say you're not a viable campaign, there's power in highlighting and platforming someone like you be precisely because even though it's superficial like the more you scare and of course this is not a guarantee and politicians lie all the time and we again have to be vigilant but the more you scare the person into running into changing his position, right? And again, I want to be clear. I don't think that, you know, Adam Smith, I'm sure, will make promises that if he, knock on wood, I hope this doesn't happen, but if he wins, he will run away from. But it's still important to raise as much uh the profile of someone who has the right um ideas as much as possible regardless of whether they're win.
>> Yes, absolutely. I I could not have said it better, Katie. I really agree with everything you're saying. In fact, it reminds me of u what Eugene Debs, the great American socialist said that I would much rather vote for what I want and not get it than vote for what I don't want and get it. And I think that really that that political difference that lies at the heart of what Ryan Grim is saying. You know, he says, you know, I don't want to waste working people's money. Well, that raises a question to my mind when I saw that like what do you consider a waste of working people's money?
>> Another question, right? Because do you is it a waste of working people's money to support a campaign that has raised $700,000 and that is comes on the heels of four election victories in Seattle of somebody who has never sold out the working class and who has a whole history of winning working-class victories and who's running a campaign on incredibly important demands like ending all military aid and a permanent arms embargo. Is that a waste of money or is it a waste of money to vote for Democrats who keep selling you out over and over and over and over again? So, I think there is a difference in political thinking here and that is what's driving all of this. I don't believe I don't actually I mean obviously I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth and you know Ryan Grim is free to say what he thinks. Uh, and like I said, I don't have any personal animosity towards anyone, but if you're talking about if if if we want to take what he what they're saying at face value and say, well, it's about what's viable. Well, Marian Williamson was never a viable campaign, but they covered that campaign to death. They covered it a lot. So, is it not deceptive for the working class to prop up Marian Williamson in that way when I mean, first of all, it's not only that she was not viable. I don't support her period. But if viability is your criterion indeed then how how do you explain that and ultimately it is I think ultimately none of that is as important as what I think is important which is uh can we can we talk about what we actually need for the working class. What we need is fighters for the working class. And so even if you have disagreements with me, you can see that my track record is as a fighter. I have never sold out. You may agree or disagree with me, but you don't find me bullshitting on anything, you know. And if I change my position on something or if I feel like I need to uh, you know, say something, you know, say have a different position on something, I will say it openly. I will say, "Yeah, I thought about this and this is what I think." I I never never ever That is not something I am guilty of.
>> Uh, and I have never sold out. I've always taken an average worker's wage and donated the rest of my, you know, elected salary to social movements and I'm running against art Zionist Adam Smith. How can this not make it a viable campaign? How can it not be the correct thing, the right thing to do on behalf of the Palestinian people and the working class to feature this campaign?
That is what I'm talking about. And ultimately, just one last thing, it very important to clarify.
>> I don't agree with sectarian. I mean uh his definition of sectarianism seems to be that I have some critiques of DSA leaders. That's not sectarianism. You know we of course the left has to have debates. In fact we have to have open discussions and debates. That's not sectarianism. Sectarianism is when you refuse to put forward put have a priority of interests on what's good for the working class in order to just make your internal point or to score a personal score or something like that or or to keep funding for your own organization as some of the black gatekeepers did during BLM. You know, they refused to support our tax Amazon campaign because the Democratic party supported promised them money for their NOS's, you know, their own pet NOS's.
That is a classic definition of sectarianism and grifting and all of that. But uh for us to have a critique of other leaders on the left, that's not sectarian. We will absolutely support any progress for the working class no matter what other disagreements we have with whoever else is putting putting that forward. And so I think that in that spirit and also keeping the interests of American working people and the Palestinian people at the center, I think it is everybody on the left's collective responsibility to help our campaign get into November.
>> Um Kama, how much time do you have so I can prioritize my questions?
>> I have uh I can probably stay for another 10 minutes.
>> Okay, great. So um wanted to ask you about something that doesn't get a a lot of uh attention. In fact, I I know a little bit about this issue, but not a lot. And I had no idea about the existence of this in the United States.
Um, let me just uh Okay, so um uh you have helped lead the charge in in the country in banning discrimination based on cast. um you uh authored legislation uh uh about this while part of the Seattle city council and you became the which became the first in the country to ban it. So tell us more about this struggle like the history of cast um and I again I know that this is exists um in India and I had no idea that it was something that happened here. So tell us a little bit about this and I remember one of the times I had you on actually you you talked about this because it was the international I think it may have been the international like dolllet day or something. Um so tell us about this um and the fact that that it exists here.
>> Yes. Yeah. So the cast system is uh something that it's a it's a form of oppression a system of discrimination and oppression that has existed in South Asia for you know about roughly 2,000 years. And you know, it exists still today for the same reason that racism still exists in America and and all over the world because these types of oppressions are something that capitalism creates because it's part of the divide and conquer strategy to divide up the billions of people in the in the you know the international working class. And so cast not only persists in India and it can be really horrific where it's it's by birth like you you're born into a lower cast or an upper cast family >> and then it can you can face horrific forms of discrimination sometimes even just violence you know rape of Dalith women dalith is the Indian word for the lower cast person or oppressed cast person >> which is has been known historic I mean in case it rings bella the untouchable.
Yes. Yeah.
>> Yes. Yes. That that was the historic name and then they they the community adopted their own name.
>> That's Yeah.
>> Exactly. And so yeah it can it can take horrific forms in India you know outright violence as I said rape of uh of Dalith women is very common unfortunately it is really brutal. In the United States obviously it doesn't take those forms but it still exists.
cast discrimination is uh really pervasive as the South Asian immigration has grown dramatically over the last 20 30 years. Now you're seeing this here as well. And uh so our bill to ban castbased discrimination in Seattle is so historic that it is the first such bill anywhere outside South Asia. And and and to date it remains the only such bill. And I say that because there was right after we won in Seattle, there was an effort in California. And then earlier this year, there was an effort in New York State. Both of them failed.
They both failed. Even though they are democratic dominated states, especially California story is instructive. It is like the story of Calare, you know, the Medicare for all in California, which has been crushed by the Democratic party four times in the last 10 years. Even though the state has a Democratic governor, Gavin Newsome, and the state legislator's two houses have either a supermajority or a near supermajority of the Democratic party. And it is the Democratic party that ended up crushing the effort for cast discrimination also where they ended up rewriting the bill in such a way that it opened the door.
It paved the way for Gavin Muome to veto the bill. It's really terrible. And so it really shows you know the people who were invested in defeating that bill in California they were active in Seattle as well. These are the people who are the supporters of the right-wing government of Modi, the Narendra Modi, the prime minister in India. And he leads a movement called Hindutwa, meaning it's right right-wing Hindu people like it's like the Christian um um you know, the rightist Christian fundamentalist. Yeah, sorry, that's the word I was looking for. Christian fundamentalist movement. And so there there are so many people very wealthy people in the United States who are sponsoring Hindutwa in India and also in the US. And if you look at the donations that people have taken, both Democrats and Republicans have donations from these people. And so they're they're becoming more and more of a powerful entity and they fought against our bill in Seattle also. And they fought against it in California. But we won in Seattle.
They didn't win in California. And the simple reason, Katie, is exactly what we did, which is a class struggle-based fighting strategy where we forced Democrats to vote yes on it, even though they hated taking a position on that because they don't but because the Democratic party doesn't, especially this was under Biden, they did not want to take a position that's antagonistic to the Indian government, but we forced them to take it. That's the main thing.
In California, they had a they rejected they specifically rejected our approach.
the leaders of that movement, they even went so far as to say things like Chama should not come here. You know, we don't want her here in California uh in interfering in our effort here because they were so convinced that my fighting approach is the wrong way to go and the way to do it is to have cozy relations with the Democratic Party. And guess what? The Democratic Party stabbed them in the back and they don't didn't win it. I mean, imagine if we had won it won it in California. That would have been a huge victory. But nonetheless, Seattle's victory is an international victory. I mean, it went viral, Katie. I mean, I had I did I ended up doing interviews for Indian media in Indian languages, which I speak, but it's not easy for me to speak politics in those languages. But I had to bone up my Hindi and Marathi in order to do those interviews because it was viral news and even now people are really inspired by that. And also people are learning lessons because California lost, New York lost. Why is that? Why did Seattle win? So people are starting to learn the lessons which is really important.
>> And tell us more about your own personal and political trajectory. Um where you grew up, when you came to United States um and how your experience shaped your political views.
>> Yeah, I grew up in a regular working middleclass home in India. I was born in Pune, which I think is a city where you have connections.
>> Yes. In fact, I'm wearing a shirt today from a store called Eitheror. I don't know if you know about the store either or it's like a it's very um they don't use sweat shops they use like they work with people and um like collectives and so in honor of you and Pune yes we have good friends my friend um met a woman he's a ethnomusicologist and was studying sitar he's a a white American dude uh and he met this wonderful woman who's actually a therapist um who I should have on the show she's a physician and a therapist very popular on Instagram actually um uh and Yes. So, we visited them and so I'm wearing this Pune uh a store shirt. Okay.
>> You know, you know, Katie, this is so brilliant because I was thinking this whole time that I love that shirt and it looks kind of Indian.
>> I wonder if it is but obviously we were speaking politics. I didn't want to inject all of that. But yeah, that's so incredible. Well yeah I was born in that city that you're talking about Pune and I grew up in Mumbai which is this big city like New York some distance from Pune and I uh and I you know I uh my earliest memory was uh of having this question in in my mind was both a moral and a scientific question and I was obsessed with this question which is that how is it that with all the progress of humanity all the technological innovations all this wealth that generated How is it that there is an a, you know, an ocean of misery around us? How is it possible?
And all the answers that I got were really stupid answers like it's karma or you know these they don't work hard. I'm like are you kidding me? These are the some of the hardest working people who are in misery. And so I my conclusion was there was something systemic. But I didn't have anybody to tell me that oh my that my thinking was not nothing strange and in fact this is Marxism. Uh but so I uh I came to the US and I uh I I was just shocked to find out that even in the richest nation in the world you have poverty, you have racism, all of that. And so I think all of that drew me towards Marxism. And it's just a quirk of fate that I came all the way to the Pacific Northwest and then found people that, you know, that I agreed with and and then yeah, since then I've never looked back. But as far as running for office, that was not my personal decision and I think that is very important to share because you know careerism is the deathnell of movement. So and so when people run for office or rise to prominence to further their own career ambitions that can be a slippery slope to selling out because then it becomes a choice of are you going you know you have to keep good relations in order to uh in order to you know further your career and that means selling out. It's like AOC described it as reputational and relational harm which I mean I don't agree with her on many things but this is she captured it accurately. This is what you go need to go through but that is required. You cannot have good relations with powerful people and win victories for the working class. That doesn't that that's an imaginary universe. That universe doesn't exist. So you have to wear your antagonism with the powerful people as a badge of honor because you're fighting for the working class. Uh in any case, the reason I mentioned it as part of my personal story is that it is important to share that I didn't just wake up one day and decide I'm going to run for office. We collectively decided that uh running for office might be a really good avenue to build the working-class struggle. And so who the candidate should be, what the actually whether we should run an election campaign, who the candidate should be, and what the program of demand should be, all of this is democratically discussed. And it's just uh you know it's just unfortunately for me I I I I was the candidate.
>> Yeah. What do they uh there's an expression heroes aren't made they're cornered.
>> Yeah. I was definitely cornered.
>> You always wanted an uh whether it's like someone running for office or like a school principal or uh you know a college uh president. You always want a reluctant administrator.
>> Yes.
>> Um well Shama, any final words for this interview um before before you leave us?
and thank you so much for your time, generosity um uh and thoughtfulness.
>> Thank you so much Katie likewise for all those things. So maybe I just should add since we were talking about cash just in terms of why building movements is so necessary is that I expected that the Modi administration would take uh you know would would uh retaliate against me personally and they have they've blacklisted me and I'm not getting a visa to go to India and so I haven't seen my mom and my sister and my family for over four years and my mom is getting older and so this this is the kind of price Yeah exactly it's really awful to that we have to pay but but My the reason I mentioned that is that the only our only uh defense against this is to build mass movements and really winning this fighting to win this election. There is no way that I alone can fight against Modi. We have to fight together against the right-wing >> against the billionaires and it has to be an international movement. And I hope that everybody who's watching this will help us. Go to chamasaw.org og donate, sign up for a phone banking shift. And listen, if you live anywhere in driving or carpool distance of our district, you know, congressional district 9 in Washington state, you have no excuse.
You have to sign up for canvasing shifts. And if none of the shifts work for your schedule, email our campaign.
We will make a shift around your schedule. We need to go out there and talk talk to working people. And we need to do what we're calling the force multiplier. Meaning every person going out talking to 25 30 people in one shift, maybe more. That means that those are then going to talk to other people.
That is the kind of force multiplier we need urgently. The election is on August 4th. The ballots have already gone out.
People are already voting. So we want to make sure we can maximize the vote for this campaign and be one of the top two vote getters for November.
>> Great. Um well, thank you so much. And yes, it's and it's a jungle primary. So, uh it's actually in some ways easier um to for [clears throat] you to get to the top. So, uh to take him on, to take on Adam Smith. Well, thank you so much, Kushama.
>> Thank you so much, Katie. A real pleasure talking to you. Take care.
>> Of course. Great. Bye. That was wonderful. Um so glad that we got to talk to Kama. And actually, I've been meaning to have her on again. I had her on years ago and then um I I was reminded to have her on. It's like kind of serendipitous. The public people were like, "Oh, are you gonna have her on?"
And I said, "Yes." And then then I saw this on online and it was a reminder uh of how soon the uh election was and I thought there was a very uh interesting conversation online. So again, thank you to Kama and we will put her uh the link to her campaign in the description. Now, we are so excited to be bringing on another excellent guest who's also been on the show before. Um, and she is going to be talking about something very important, very disturbing. Um, her name is Tara Alami and she is a Palestinian writer and organizer and member of the Palestinian Feminist Collective and she's going to talk about this uh, very upsetting but extremely important, not to be ignored uh, report on Israel's use of uh, sexualized violence. So, welcome back to the show, Tara.
>> Hi. Thank you for having me.
>> Of course. Thank you for for joining and also thank you for doing uh the work that you do. This is a report that you guys at the Palestinian Feminist Collective wrote with the support from the um progressive inter with support from the progressive international. Uh can you uh outline some of the uh most important or most significant findings of this and it's called a predatory state Israeli systemic sexualized and gendered violence against Palestinians.
>> Yeah. So I mean everyone can download the report on predatorystate.org.
Um it's almost 200 pages. It's um essentially a chronological um you know history of of the use of of sexualized violence and gendered uh violence against Palestinians uh since the beginning or since the beginning of the NKBA since the establishment of of Israel um until uh as late as April 2026.
Um so you know with all this evidence and um you know including testimonies but also a few case studies through which we analyze for example the use of AI um to uh to enact gendered violence uh blackmail honey traps um uh and and coercion uh with the creation of of false relationships with Palestinians to um to infiltrate political groups and communities um all the way to you know, the subjugation of of Palestinians uh to sexualized torture and rape and humiliation. Um, our analysis uh is that uh Israel is committing this sort of violence, sexualized and gendered violence with genocidal intent. And we we have a few, you know, we have four key findings.
>> Sorry, Tara. Can you do just because this is so important, do you have a pen or like a I hear a noise like it sounds like a >> Oh, no.
or like a necklace. I hear this like um >> That's my necklace. That's awful.
>> Oh, no. No. Is it making noise?
>> I don't know. Is it Is it still >> Do you hear that? Like it sounds like a ro like you're hitting a rosary or something. Not like Not that I've ever held a rosary in my life.
>> It might be my bracelet.
>> Oh, bracelet. That's what it is. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> I'll stop moving my >> Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. I'm so sorry. I just because it's so important. I didn't want the the the noise in there. So, the four You cut you off. So there are four um findings.
>> Yeah, we have four um key findings. One of them is that the scale and consistency of uh this uh sort of violence um throughout uh or since the establishment of Israel um with evidence that documents distinctive acts and strategies that are carried out with a consistent pattern against Palestinians in different contexts. So within prisons, outside of prisons, um within makeshift detention uh centers as we've seen in in um within people's homes, um you know, and just everywhere on on Palestinian land illustrates the institutionalized dehumanization um of Palestinians that is orchestrated um to enact collective harm and collective punishment against Palestinians. Um the second finding is that the methods of sexualized violence um that we analyze constitute a pattern that is um clearly derived from a coordinated policy and a mandate. So it's not a random or um you know incidental uh >> exactly it's not you know the lone act of a cartoonishly evil soldier or settler. Um it's systematic and it's carried out with um intent and consistency that can only be a result of protocols um uh that are mandated and institutionalized within um this settler colony and also ingrained within the culture that sustains it. Uh the third finding is that you know this is um uh the purpose of of the sexualized and or the purpose of the enactment of this violence is to inflict collective terror on Palestinians. Um that this is you know even if the crime is committed on an individual. So a certain Palestinian prisoner is sexually tortured for example the intent um is to inflict harm on the entire Palestinian nation. Um because of the sheer depravity of these acts, their breadth and and and the scope of distorture and violence um that that you know this report reveals um can can only be seen as as an attempt to eliminate uh Palestinians through ethnic cleansing and and mass murder um with explicit articulations of of intent to kill. Um and so importantly now that you know people are um or now that for the past 3 years we've been saying that Israel has been committing genocide against the Palestinian people uh using these legal frameworks within you know international law um using the definitions of international law. It's important to utilize also and to say that sexualized violence and torture and gendered violence are both being carried out with genocidal intent and they are both part of of this genocidal crime. Um the last finding or the final finding is that there's been a clear acceleration of of sexualized violence since uh the appointment of of Benvir um as the minister of of national security in 2022. Um and and several reports have come out uh testimonies even before the beginning of the genocide in that indicate beyond you know beyond any doubt beyond attempts to deny even though I'm I'm not really seeing any attempts to deny from from the Israeli population or state in fact they're actively celebrating it and and inciting rape. Um but beyond any attempts to or to doubt this this evidence um it proves that sexualized violence is part of a larger arsenal of strategies that are used to destroy the Palestinian people um used to attack Palestinian peoplehood livelihood and uh futurity on on Palestinian land.
>> And can you explain why you use the term sexualized violence instead of sexual violence? Yeah, actually I mean this was part of um a debate that that we had internally while um working on this report. So um when people look at the report they'll see that at the beginning we have a glossery of different terms.
Um the reason we chose sexualized violence is because certain types of violence um that we've observed um for example sexual humiliation um all the way to rape, sexual torture um fit different um definitions or or or meet different criteria of of types of violence. And so we use sexualized violence as as an umbrella term to encompass all of these types of violence. So to encompass sexual humiliation that can take the form of, for example, forcing prisoners to undress in front of each other. Um forcing uh prisoners to wear underwear that does not fit them properly, specifically women prisoners. um all the way to being raped uh by a group of Israeli soldiers as an individual alone or in front of other prisoners. Um and and and and you know uh also of course as we've all seen the photos of Israeli soldiers after they invade the homes of Palestinians taking pictures of with with lingerie and and uh sort of weaponizing intimacy and sexuality um against the Palestinian people in an attempt to to humiliate them. And so the use of sexualized violence is is supposed to be um was intentional um to to sort of you know act as an umbrella term that could you know have all of these forms of violence fall fall you know underneath it.
>> You know I think something that's really important is that much like people are saying oh it's it's Netanyahu who's bad or you know Israel got bad in ' 67 Israel got out of control. You know, it it that framing uh seduces a lot of people and of course it's uh inaccurate.
It's a historical and it it obuscates the fact that it was foundational, right? Ethnic cleansing was always part of the plan. And and kind of likewise, you some people, I'm sure, think, oh, this sexual torture that we're seeing now, the sexualized violence, this is something new. when as your report uh outlines and uh some people already know this I mean there have been excellent uh writing about this uh this sexualized violence was foundational as well used to ethnically cleanse uh there are absolutely haunting uh writings about this and we'll review some of those uh but can you give some context to this and then we'll talk about something that for instance like Bengavir actually you know uh sorry Freudian slip uh Bengurion uh wrote about uh he was the first prime minister of of Israel. So um and I'm switching chairs so I'm going to go off screen um if that's okay. Uh I'm listening but I have to move switch chairs.
>> So >> absolutely do we switch your chair. Um so I mean the report begins with testimonies and and evidence from 1948.
um evidence that was collected from published diaries of of uh the early Jewish settlers um who formed the armed gangs and militias that terrorized Palestinians um and depopulated our villages um using threats of rape, but also importantly enacting rape against um against Palestinians. What's really important to notice or one of the patterns that we noticed while looking at this evidence and compiling it is that sexual slavery was an important strategy um for these um early uh Zionist gangs and militias that were invading Palestinian towns and and depopulating them. Um this included things like uh gang rape and um the kidnapping of of Palestinian girls. um threats to kidnap them, threats to to rape them, but also actual kidnapping um and and gang rape of of uh of girls and and women um in an attempt to um instill fear in Palestinians uh at the time and and force them to flee their villages.
Um, the thing about, you know, these claims about Netanyahu being an especially evil person or Beng being an especially evil person is that, you know, as we all know and I'm sure a lot of your audience knows, um, it completely erases the context of of the establishment of of this settler colonial state on Palestinian land. Not only because um there's clear evidence that sexual violence and threats of rape were used against Palestinians in the beginning of the NKBA um to force them to to to leave uh to flee and and to ethnically cleanse our land, but also because it's a complete misunderstanding of the power dynamic and the framework within which this sort of violence happens um in a settler colony. And so it erases entirely um you know a history outside of Palestine um of sexualized violence and torture and gendered violence being used against native people, colonized people um in the establishment of these settler colonial states. Um and also uh sort of you know uh launders this narrative that this is just like I said one cartoonishly evil person. Um I think you know you like one thing that that really over the past two years has um has made this you know I think as as clear as possible and I think that's why I I sort of find it really confusing when people try to minimize uh or or perhaps question the use of sexual violence by Israel against Palestinians is that you would think that a society and and a state that seem to be 100% % aligned um on alleging that Israeli women were systemically raped by Palestinians on October 7 um and also entirely intent on using that hoax as one of the justification justifications for this genocide in Khaz um and further annexation of Palestinian land in in the West Bank and Jerusalem. You would think that the state and and its population would not be so eager to jump on the opportunity to rally in favor of rape um and torture of Palestinian prisoners in particular um but Palestinians in general. You would think they would not so you know brazenly incite or celebrate rape as a strategy. Um and yet here we are and that can only mean one thing. It can only indicate one thing which is that this is a settler society um and and a colony that was built and continues to be sustained by a depraved culture that is entirely based on torture whether sexualized or not. Um it's entirely based on the oppression and exploitation of of Palestinians and their land. Um and this is not only allowed to happen. It doesn't only slip through the cracks. It's the very foundation upon which the society and state were established, >> right? Um, yeah. And you have also uh, you know, the Knesset member saying that it's justifi legitimate to insert sticks into people's rectums. You have these rapists becoming like celebrities uh, on like late night television. You have comedians making jokes about dog rape.
Um, it's kind of like pick a narrative, right? like either these are, you know, blood liable, anti-semitic lies. And if people are just listening, not watching, I'm putting those in air quotes because it's obviously a lie. Uh or it's something that you are okay protesting for the right for calling legitimate um joking about, etc. So, um I want to start off uh or I wanted to bring up one of the uh really disturbing examples. Uh Brad, you have the screenshot, right, from this um an article.
Um, we're we're going to see um a diary entry of Benorian uh describing something extremely disturbing. Um, >> and Katie, what I do have uh is the archived uh Harets article, which I think contains what you're looking for.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um so uh I saw fit to remove her from the world is the title of this um article in uh Harareets. Newly revealed documents obtained by Harats tell the long-hidden story of what Bengorian described as a quote unquote horrific atrocity. In August 1949, an IDF unit caught a Bedawin girl, held her captive in a Negv outpost, gang raped her, executed her at the order of the platoon commander, and buried her in a shallow grave in the desert. 20 soldiers who took part in the episode, including the platoon commander, were court marshaled and sent to prison. Um, and I believe that we have um uh let me just grab this uh extremely disturbing um thing that uh Benorian says. And obviously I sorry goes without saying this this whole episode this whole interview needs a um trigger warning. Um so uh let's see. Um I'm looking for the actual quote. One second.
One second.
Okay, one second. Um, okay. Uh, I saw fit. Hold on one second.
Okay, I'm really sorry about that. Okay, here it is. Okay, so this is um in 2003 a seal was lifted on the personal diary of Israel's first prime minister, David Benorian. and other classified Israeli military documents. Reporting on the newly declassified material, the RS published a story on the August 1949 abduction of a teenage Bedawin Palestinian girl from the Nikab who was forced into sexual enslavement and gang raped by soldiers at the Narim military outpost before she was killed and buried. Bengurion's August 22nd, 1949 diary entry shows that the highest ranks were aware of this case. He states it was decided and carried out. They washed her, cut her hair, raped her, and killed her. Um, testimonies from the 20 soldiers involved in the assault indicate that the order came from the platoon commander, identified only as Mosha. After the girl's abduction, Mosha gave his soldiers a speech on the importance of Zionism and their contributions to the formation of the new state. He concluded his speech by giving his soldiers two options regarding their captive. She was either to become a kitchen worker or their sex slave. Um, in reply, uh, the soldiers chanted, "We want to fukk."
Uh, Moisha then arranged a three-day rape schedule for soldiers from three scowads to take turns raping her. After the first night of enduring the gang rape and physical assault, the girl fell unconscious. The following morning, she resisted her asalance and was in turn executed and buried on Mosha's orders.
So can you tell us more about this incident and the context and and how we see this kind of uh as as how and why this is not an isolated incident.
>> Yeah. I mean first um one thing that I just I remembered um about how difficult it was to to research this to do research for this report along with other collective members um is that these records that were unsealed at some point um you know after a 50-year threshold they were declassified a lot of them were later sealed um and reclassified as top secret um and So there's evidence that does exist and did exist in and that was open for the public that had then that you know had then been resealed and and reclassified as top secret by Israel. Um the other thing is is you know of course uh the um the existence of of this evidence only um as reported exclusively by Israeli scholars and and sources um due to to these physical restrictions to the records that are denied. And so this is just you can imagine if this is a diary entry that was declassified and allowed to enter the public imagination and public discourse. You can imagine what exists that is still classified. Um what exists that is still hidden in Israeli archives. Um you know >> or that just died. I mean that are like in the >> or that were Yeah. were destroyed or someone dies and they throw out the diary. Right. Yeah.
>> Exactly. Destroyed or only existing within the memories of of the people that perpetrated them. Right. Um this is you know this diary entry we we we included it um because it's it's a microcosm really or one example of of the use of sexualized torture and and this violence um during the early days of the nekb I mean this one is from 1949 but um there's a lot of evidence from the Dasin massacre in 1948 um a lot of survivors at of the at the time came out with with testimonies about how sexualized viol violence was being used against them to force them to flee their homes. Um specifically Zionist militias um that later were then you know instituted and mandated as the Israeli as the IDF um Zionist militias using loudspeakers driving through villages um with uh threats of of rape, screaming threats of rape uh through these with these loudspeakers. Um and so >> I thought it was the Arabs. I thought the Arabs were telling people to leave, right?
>> Um and so these these accounts, speaking of of evidence and what is seen as legitimate evidence, but also what is classified and and hidden um this account uh these testimonies were unverified. And so the testimonies, these primary um uh you know uh memories and and testimonies of the sexual assault assault were unverified um until uh there was um uh because sorry there was a seal on a British mandate investigation. And so the British mandate itself was participating in investigating these crimes that were committed against Palestinians um people that they were already colonizing. um and then had sealed the evidence proving that these crimes were um were committed. And that only changed in 1970 um at a time where sexual torture and violence had increased in intensity and frequency specifically in in prisons um specifically after the the occupation of the West Bank and Jerusalem in Huzz. Um and so in in 1970 it was exposed by by these British journalists. Um and they had revealed uh or retrieved this this investigation and and reported on on their findings. But this is really important to understand because there are many instances where you see gaps in in re in testimonies. for example, years where um in in our chronological timeline, specific years where we don't say that this testimony came out or that testimony came out. The fact that these testimonies don't exist in the public um you know or imagination or or in public consciousness doesn't mean that these uh that this form of sexual torture or sexualized violence didn't happen. And more importantly, it doesn't mean that it slowed down. Um there there was a specific period um after the 80s towards the '9s and the early 2000s where you start seeing less um in incidents of of of sexualized torture and violence in prisons. There's you know many reasons.
One of them is that uh you know there's this sort of um relationship between the use of sexualized torture and violence within prisons and the strength of the prisoners movement um in inside these prisons. But also it's because after worldwide and international condemnation um of of these tactics and strategies when people like Rasmud started going out to the UN testifying to being um raped in front of her father um to her father being tortured and and forced um to have sexual intercourse with her. Um there were widespread condemnations.
What Israel did after that is that it created a legal framework to house sexualized torture and violence um to to to um put it within boundaries that are permissible. Um and and this was you know revealed in um in a report in the early 2000s by Domir um after I think in 1999 the Israeli Supreme Court had created these boundaries uh within which the use of sexual torture and violence is reasonable. Um, of course, according to the discretion of of those enacting it against Palestinian prisoners, this includes things like um, uh, torture that doesn't leave physical marks on people. Um, it includes things like psychological torture, um, inflicting psychological pain through the use of sexualized violence. And so that's that's just, you know, one thing I wanted to mention about certain periods where you see gaps in in testimonies or perhaps a decrease in or in the frequency or intensity of sexualized violence. It's not so much that it stopped happening or that it decreased in intensity or frequency all the time.
It's more so that it started being allowed within a specific quota. torture was actually institutionalized um and you know uh used as as a legitimate uh strategy in in interrogations within Israeli law. I mean of course we know this doesn't matter whether or not it's it's instituted in Israeli law to Palestinians. Um but but this is you know for our findings extremely important because it illustrates a methodological um utilization of of sexualized violence against against Palestinians.
>> And can you talk about the you know um every accusation is a confession and how much uh Palestinians uh especially on October 7th have been accused of of rape. how much the media repeated that uh how much they covered the rape that uh had no documentation and how much they ignored the rape that has been documented.
>> I mean, yes, of course. I I it's it's been I mean like I mentioned in the beginning this this entire state and its population seem to be in complete agreement that this allegation of systemic mass rape um is you know a justification for uh for a subsequent genocide of of the Palestinian people.
Um and yet our you know uh our research um on you know on the contrary has documented that this systemic and institutionalized rape and torture is actually used against Palestinians by by Israel. Um and so of course you know on October 7 within a few hours the first thing we observed was that you know these western depictions of Arabs and Muslims as dangerous um these uh uh depraved beings that have uh savages that have no control over sexual impulses had unleashed their violence against these innocent Israeli women that were simply living um you know or going to a rape sorry going to you know, a rave. I know.
>> Yeah, I raved. Um, and and and uh immediately these racialized constructions of of Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim men were propagated in in the media were taken as absolute truth. Um, and uh were were laundered and and to this day um Zionists and and and uh and uh Zionists are seeking condemnations from anyone and everyone for a hoax. uh for what is essentially a hoax. Um when in reality um and and everyone gave them these condemnations >> when in reality the international community and all these people that were offering up condemnations of of alleged sexualized torture and alleges sorry alleged systemic rape had historically completely ignored all the testimonies from Palestinians um uh alleging and testifying to this sort of violence being inflicted upon them. Um and so you know what we saw immediately was that there was this security threat um against created against a colonizer that is moral a colonizer that is you know just or a colonizer that is peaceful and doesn't really have anything to do with the state to which to which they belong. So, you know, these constructions of of Muslim and Palestinian men um took off and and the these logics were then sort of enshrined as as theology um that Palestinians are just existential threats um to uh to uh in order to justify extreme violence, in order to justify genocide in the name of security and defense. Um and and that was part of of these mass rape accusations uh with with with genocidal intent. And so we say and and and we assert in this this report [snorts] that these allegations in and of themselves were were were leveraged with genocidal intent. Um and this builds on on patterns um that have been uh documented uh the use of of these allegations against um against uh people that are you know being exploited and oppressed and repressed by imperialist and colonial forces. Um but essentially what happened was that these volunteers at a Zionist organization uh this ultraorththodox uh Israeli search and rescue organization were first responders to scenes that simply did not exist. Uh they collected testimonies from Israeli women who seemed to not exist. Um and and if they do exist then they were killed afterwards. Um and that was taken as as complete fact. um you know, these media organizations that tout these journalistic standards that tout adherence to neutrality or or whatever um completely ignored all of these criteria that that they need to to verify um this sort of allegation against an entire nation. um the allegation that the Palestinian people and and Hamas, a political party, members of this party, um engaged in systemic rape on on October 7. Um and and these, you know, media laundered and propagated uh this hoax as as total truth, but also importantly, NOS's and nonprofits played a really important part in in in in propagating it. they completely disregarded any sort of legal uh threshold that they use otherwise to verify these allegations. You know, within a few uh a few months, these reports and papers, tens of pages were coming out from from these organizations, including Physicians for Human Rights Israel. Um which at the same time is is trying to stop the the genocide in in Huz. Um um they released a paper after one month exactly on November 7th that was titled sexual and gendered va b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b based violence as a weapon of war. Um and so you know now we were in in in using the war framework which completely doesn't work as I mentioned for this sort of dynamic. Um, and so, you know, UN women immediately >> invited Israeli women to talk about uh the systemic mass rape that that allegedly happened, >> you know.
>> Yeah. The Sorry, keep going.
>> The last thing I want to mention is is the absolute disaster of of an article which is Screams Without Words.
um, Screams Without Words, shared this harrowing story allegedly of of this Israeli woman that was raped, later killed, and her own family came out and was like, >> "We don't think this, yeah, we didn't agree for you to publish this. This didn't actually happen." Um, >> and you misrepresented what you were doing and saying, >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> You said that about the journalist, quote unquote journalist. And then the New York Times releases an article by Nick Kristoff about sexual violence that is committed against Palestinians. And it's in the opinion section, >> right? It's an oped, not a report.
>> This is an oped. Yeah.
>> And of course, you know, it's so important to remember that much like the genocide claim. This has been said countless times by countless Palestinians um that it's genocide and countless times that there's rape. And I think it's obviously significant though. I mean, and people get very frustrated. They're like, "Oh, now that Nicholas Kristoff says it, now people pay attention." But of course, we we know that we live in a world where that happens, right? Like, it's lamentable, but it's obviously going to have a different impact. And likewise, I mean, it is very hard to uh argue with a Bengorian diary entry. So again, it's not that we don't believe the countless men and women who report uh share being having been raped. And of course, there's so many more who won't because of obvious issues of stigma. Um it's not that but for the Bangorian thing, we wouldn't believe it. It just happens to be a particularly damning piece of evidence for people who are not disposed to believe it. And I just want to play, you know, we've played this many times, but I do want to play this this really disgusting um Dana Bash clip that comes from December um of 2023, I believe. So, it was right after, you know, months after. And and at this point, there hadn't even been that many reports on the alleged mass rape hoax.
Um and yet you'll you'll see that she is um adamant that uh Primila Gyipol condemned something that hadn't even been reported on. Uh one one thing I actually want to say about the doctors for what is it is uh doctors for human rights is that one thing that they did say at least early on and I'm not crediting them. I just remember this stood out is that they were like no uh it wasn't cuz there was a rumor that it was like there were orders, right? They were like, "Yeah, there were some rapes, but it wasn't necessarily given upon orders." Um, and even they said, "Well, no, like the only evidence that there were orders to do that came from people who were tortured, and that's not reliable." So, anyway, but let's go to this um speaking of torture, sorry to subject everyone to this to this exchange between uh Congresswoman uh Primila Gyipol and Dana Bash. I want to ask you about uh sexual violence and the it's kind of remarkable that this issue hasn't gotten enough attention uh globally widespread use of rape uh brutal rape sexual violence against Israeli women by Hamas. Um, I've seen a lot of progressive women, generally speaking, they're quick to defend women's rights and speak out against using rape as a as a weapon of war, but downright silent on what we saw on October 7th and what might be happening inside Gaza right now to these hostages.
Why is that?
>> I I I mean, I don't I don't know that that's true. I think what we always talk about the impact of war on women in particular. In fact, I remember 20 years ago I did a petition around the war in Iraq saying talked about it since October and I've condemned what Hamas has done. I've condemned all of the actions. Absolutely. The the rape, the of course, but I think we have to remember that >> Israel is a democracy. That is why they are a strong ally of ours. And if they do not comply with international humanitarian law, they are bringing themselves to a place that makes it much more difficult strategically for them to be able to build the kinds of allies to keep public opinion with them. And frankly, uh, morally, I think we cannot say that one war crime deserves another.
That is not what international humanitarian law says.
>> Okay. With with respect, I was just asking about the the women and you turned it back to Israel. I'm asking you about Hamas. In fact, >> I already answered your question, Dana.
I I said it's horrific, and I think that rape is horrific. Sexual assault is horrific. I think that it happens in war situations. Terrorist organizations like Hamas obviously are using these as tools. However, I think we have to be balanced about bringing in the outrages against Palestinians. 15,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli air strikes. threearters of whom are women and children >> and it's horrible but you're you don't see Israeli soldiers raping um >> well Dana I think we're not we're not >> okay so I mean that line there is like it's actually useful almost because Dana Bash is demonstrating in real time what atrocity propaganda is and I'm I want you to respond to this but that line at the end is just so uh such a a a tell I mean it's so revealing and incriminating because she says, "And it's terrible," referring to the killings of civilians, but you don't see um Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian women. And the reason that's so powerful is because it's exactly doing what atrocity propaganda does, which is like, well, it's terrible, but there's like a characteristic. It's like there are different types of people, right? So like the Palestinians are rapists and the Israelis aren't. So, while it's unfortunate that there are all these civilians killed, it kind of has to happen because we're dealing with monsters.
>> Yeah. I mean, I would I I don't follow this this woman's journalistic career, but but I would love to know what she said after the videos leaked from from literally, you know, we saw >> Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian men.
>> Um, that's Yeah, >> exactly. I mean, it's it's like the layers and levels. So, one is that she and Jake Tapper, who are major Zionist mouthpieces pieces, um, and she's interviewed Netanyahu very respectfully.
Um, she and and Jake Tapper both put forward the mass rape pokes. Jake Tapper interviewed the people who were later discredited. And we're not talking about women who said that they were raped.
We're talking about alleged witnesses who then had to admit that they didn't see what they said they saw or other people debunked it. Um, uh, not only did they never correct the record or acknowledge that the things that they said happened or the people that they put on their show and said happened, they never acknowledge that those things were disproven. They also never acknowledged the state stuff. And that to me, it's like I don't my expectations are so low. I had never thought that they would uh like retract their lies, but I thought that maybe maybe just so they wouldn't look like the absolute like racist ghouls that they are that maybe to cover their asses and like pretend to be journalists, they would say, "And this is all and this is also bad." Even if they pretended that both sides had done it, right? I kind of thought maybe they would say and this is of course awful and it's, you know, a few bad apples, right? Or whatever. But the the the impunity in which they operate allowed them to not even mention it like not even pay lip service to it which is just so incredibly infuriating. But uh please uh uh yeah what are your thoughts on this this sense of impunity and how it enables I mean I would say it actually enables and empowers this kind of ongoing abuse. Yeah. I mean, well, it does enable it does empower it. It incites actually rape as as as it incites the use of rape um against against Palestinians as not only a legitimate strategy, but also a desired strategy uh to be used against Palestinian prisoners, but but Palestinians in general. I mean, I think, you know, one of we we've I think we've witnessed really one of the most incredible in the worst way possible journalistic um I don't know arcs over the past three years. First, within a few hours uh allegations of mass systemic rape and I think I mean I I don't know if I don't know what definition of systemic or or mass they're using, but within a few hours it was being reported as absolute truth. Um and then a few hours later or a couple of days later it was revealed that the main person sharing these allegations of systemic rape was uh in in the IDF. Um, and then a few hours uh later, you know, you start seeing allegations even by people that, you know, like this woman, this this woman that was being interviewed by people who >> want to do the both sides things, you know, like it's it's it's so like yes, I've condemned Yeah. Exactly. Right.
>> And I've bent over backwards and I've condemned and I've condemned them and you're still being, you know, attacked on on national TV by by Zionist mouthpieces. Even those people were fabricating fabricating allegations of their own. They were saying, you know, it's really awful that we're seeing, you know, people doubting the the October 7 mass rape allegations. Have you considered that these women were killed after they they had been raped? Have you considered that these women are too scared to share their testimonies of of being raped and that's why they're not coming out on national TV? And yet a year later, less than a year later, they're featuring these rapists in from from prisons on on TV. They're parading them around like national heroes. They are, you know, uh protest. They're not protesting because they're not against it. They're rallying in in support of of the use of of rape.
>> They're protesting against the attempts to uh hold them accountable.
>> Hold them accountable.
>> Yeah. um which which the attempt to hold them accountable in and of itself was was really just you know an optics situation because the video was leaked.
But the reality is this guy the the men the soldiers that perpetrated that rape are just fine. They're living their lives um if if not committing more and enacting more sexualized torture and and rape against Palestinian prisoners.
>> Right. And and the sick thing is that the only reason that there was like any debate over whether or not to um detain or investigate the rapes was because it was a way for Israel. It the debate wasn't like is it should these people be punished for moral reasons. It was like if we if the world sees that we are not prosecuting war crimes then the ICC will have jurisdiction. Like that was the only reason that anyone was considering it as a viable option. It wasn't like, oh, because rape is bad.
>> Yeah.
>> It's like, we can't give the ICC the excuse to to have jurisdiction here. Um, this is a really um disturbing thing to talk about, but I think it's important and you talk about in your report, which is the use of dogs um in sexualized violence. So, uh can you talk about um what you found uh here?
Yeah, I mean we have an entire section that is dedicated to sexual torture and rape with dogs. Um, you know, it's it it was one of it and it still is one of the most difficult things to to try to understand and comprehend because we've always I mean we've been socialized to see dogs as as pets. um they are pets and they are loving animals.
A man's best friend, they are souls that you know accompany us in in our daily lives. Um and and the idea of someone so depraved to train a dog uh to rape a human being, I think is incomprehensible or unconscionable to anyone who is normal. really anyone who's who's a normal human being that who's not depraved and and not uh someone that enjoys torture and and rape >> um as as as a hobby and as a job within the Israeli um state. Um and and so there was clear, you know, we we've documented um uh this this violence and in the report with several testimonies um and there was we found that there was clear intent to sexually humiliate um and and torture Palestinians during arrests um before uh you know before being taken to to prisons, during interrogations, but also during imprisonment uh using dogs. Um, and so, uh, there was a a systemic character to the to the use of dogs, um, to commit sexualized violence. But I think also what's really important is um, dogs are also used by by the Israeli army, by Israeli forces to to kill Palestinians.
Um there are many stories from from about Palestinians being mauled by Israeli uh trained dogs um to be left and their families finding them weeks and months later specifically after families were allowed to return um to to the south uh sorry to the north um uh finding the decomposed and and um uh the decomposed remains of of their loved ones that had been uh killed by by dogs trained by Israel. And so um what we find is that there's there's early early evidence of of dogs being used um uh as uh you know used to rape prisoners, but the the highest or the highest frequency of of the use of dogs was during the past three years. Um you know there are countless testimonies, even more coming out. There were more testimonies that came out a few days ago or a few a couple of weeks ago from released prisoners and detainees specifically after the prison exchanges that happened over the past three years of uh of prisoners being um blindfolded uh stripped naked and then trained dogs being let loose on them um while they are blindfolded uh subjecting them to to rape. um and and also forcing other prisoners um to witness that. Uh there was also several this is from a Euroamed human rights report. There were also testimonies from the PCHR's torture and genocide report which was very widely um circulated. Again, this one is, you know, prisoners that uh were stripped naked um and then uh forced to watch each other um being uh sexually tortured and raped by a by an Israeli trained dog. Um also watching, you know, each other of course screaming from from the pain knowing that they had been that they are next. um that the dog will later be um let loose on them. Um there's another um uh testimony about um from from a prisoner who part of his testimony was about how this dog um knew deliber knew what it was doing. It was very deliberate in its actions and very well trained um in in this you know in in rape. Um he says that the dog did it deliberately knowing exactly what it was doing and it inserted its penis into my anus while the soldiers kept beating and torturing us and spraying pepper spray in our faces. Um there are countless more testimonies I think you know of course extremely disturbing but listening to them researching them writing them down understanding them is nothing. I mean the the the disgust and and pain and and you know confusion I guess because it's so difficult to understand that we feel is nothing compared to being subjected uh to this and so you know I urge people to read the report um even even though of course it's it's extremely disturbing but also because it's it's extremely disturbing >> right yeah and it's um you know a lot of people are like oh my god this is such a lie this is blood liable because dogs can't physically do that. It's like well what ironically is that like I mean there are claims that this happened to Jews during the Holocaust. There's like one at least one uh documentation of this. So people saying that are Holocaust deniers which I mean they're fine being Holocaust deniers when it comes to this Holocaust, right? But there's also a woman who is famous in in under Pinoce for using a dog to rape prisoners. So, I mean it's it's disgusting that we even have to bring this up whether or not this is possible.
I mean, it's it's a really disgusting thing that we live in a world where we have to make the point that it is possible for dogs to rape uh human beings.
>> And and it's I think you know the the jokes the jokes that are made by these Israeli comedians or I don't know content creators whatever they are um about >> there was a real stand-up guy like a guy performing standup. Yeah.
>> Yeah. about how these, you know, allegations are so absurd that they must be fake. Um, I think shows the extent of the dehumanization of the Palestinian people for for Zionists. Um, and yet at the same time, allegations of mass rape on on October 7, systemic mass rape, premeditated mass rape are supposed to be believed uh without question, without doubt, without any evidence. And when there is evidence, if it's unreliable, if it's later debunked, you're still supposed to believe it. Um, and I think, you know, yeah, this is just clearly the the extent to which Palestinians are are dehumanized by by Zionism and and the the sponsors of of Zionism, >> right?
>> And also why it's it's so important to, you know, speak about this, of course, to to document it, to share it, to provide this analysis that that is, you know, included in this report. um in order to make it and and I think I I said this before last time I was I was on this show to make it as difficult as possible for Zionists and Israelis to exist in society.
We like we need to ostracize, marginalize and isolate Zionism as a political ideology and and Zionists from um any sort of respectable civilized society that does not um condone or enjoy sexual torture and rape as part of its of its cultural heritage.
Um and and that is you know one of our tasks as as you know as people that are involved in the movement as solid solid people that are in solidarity with the Palestinians. um to make it impossible um and and just untenable for someone to proudly exist as as a Zionist within us to walk, you know, between us. Like I I think I saw the other day or today the Hendra Foundation identified a US uh sorry an Israeli occupation uh forces soldier at Tomorrowland at a festival dancing living his life and and later found evidence of foot photographic footage and and photographic evidence of this person committing war crimes and had taken that to court. Um it it is our responsibility to make it completely um unt untenable for for Zionism to to exist uh among us >> as like an acceptable ideology >> as an acceptable ideology and acceptable way to live life um and and to continue to justify and perpetrate the genocide of the Palestinian people and its expansion into the into the rest of the Arab world, it expansion into Lebanon, the attack on on the continuous assault assault on on Iran.
It's our responsibility to to isolate Zionism.
>> And by the way, we will be having on um a some a lawyer with the Hin Rajab Foundation uh soon, Jacob Jake Rahm who's done amazing work. Um well um this is awful um and important and it's it's so important partly because it's so awful like we have to make sure people know about this um and and because we have such a an a genocidal media. I mean our med the media is just absolutely complicit in this right and and it without their complicity you wouldn't this wouldn't be allowed to happen um because people face no obviously I mean international law has failed um diplomacy has failed all that but but less I think obviously the media has enabled this to happen um tell us quickly um where people can find this report also what the Palestinian collective uh uh feminist collective is and where people can find out more about that organization.
>> Yeah. So, the report um is available for download on predatorystate.org.
Um you can keep up with um our posts, updates about it on um Palestinian feminist collective on Instagram or uh on the Palestinian feministcolive.org website uh where you can follow our organization. We're an anti-imperialist uh feminist uh collective of Palestinian and Arab uh members. Um we organize for for Palestinian liberation here on in North America on Turtle Island. Um recognizing that um that Zionist settler colonialism and imperialism are are the primary contradictions. Um but also or and also um using um or or or uh you know using gender and and and and sexuality as as an entry point um to understanding um imperialism and and settler colonialism.
Uh, of course, you know, we provide a lot of analysis in in this report uh about colonial feminism, about the ways it's been weaponized against our people to justify exactly what we're witnessing. um on one end asking for condemnations every single minute of the day of of alleged rape and on the other hand uh uh enacting it against um against an entire nation uh with with genocidal intent.
>> Yeah. It's almost like it just doesn't matter if it's Palestinians who are getting raped.
>> Mhm.
>> Just doesn't count for these people. Um well uh I just want to read a comment for you which is Tara God bless you and your work. Thank you John uh John Ballaya for that comment. Um and I want to also acknowledge uh you guys uh progressive international for supporting this and literally the handful I mean I think you can count on one hand of the the places that really reported on this um electronic and defa Mondo Weiss and the Greyzone. Those were the places that uh before other more mainstream ones did uh were were pushing back on the mass rape uh claim >> and and these reports and investigations are are cited frequently in our report.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so and that's I should say I should clarify Western of Western. Yeah. Um thank you. Uh anything else you want to say before um you um leave us for tonight? And of course we'd love to have you back on.
>> Thank you for having me. Um, I think I I would just, you know, again encourage people to to engage with the content of this report. Um, um, I I understand completely as as one of the people that worked on it, how disturbing it is, how, you know, incomprehensible again to anyone who is remotely normal, right? um the extent and severity of of violence, the way that it's, you know, you can see the pattern and the methodology behind it. Um but I I encourage you and urge you to read it, engage with it partic specifically because it's so disturbing specifically because um this is a pattern that is happening right in front of our eyes and it's our responsibility um to to use this evidence um to enact uh as much um you know pressure on on for sanctions, for divestment uh for mobilization for a people's arms embargo for, you know, to destroy Apac and the Zionist lobby um and and to grow our movement, >> right? Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much. And oh, and before people say, oh, it's anti-Semitic to say we need to de, you know, make Zionism unacceptable, uh there are more Christian Zionists than Jewish Zionists. So, this is a non uh, you know, obviously it's linked. I mean, Israel is a Jewish state, but Zionism, the first political Zionists were Christians. I'm not saying this at all to like exonerate Zionist Jews because Zionist Jews don't get like a a pass.
I'm just saying that, you know, luckily for uh for the world, unluckily for the world, Zionists don't have to be Jewish.
So, for people who are accusing Tara or me of, you know, anti-semitism, I mean, it's it's almost not worth even responding to. But I but I do think it is important, actually. I do think it's important to remember that, you know, Zionism is a uh a project that unites various faiths and uh and and uh back backgrounds um which is uh very disturbing and something we have to talk about. Um and of course has uh everything to do with imperialism and colonialism as you guys document so well. Well, thank you so much Tara and uh I we will link to this report.
>> Thank you. Thank you for having me.
>> Thank you. you have a and is have you been I saw you did a great um um uh presentation at the people's forum. Have you have you guys been invited on to more media?
>> Yeah. Um yeah, we have. Um I mean thankfully you know alternative and and leftist media have been gracious and inviting us the the the launch event uh from the people's forums on YouTube also.
>> Yeah.
>> Um we also one of the panelists that attended is Hadil Chhatara. She's a freed political prisoner. She she says her own testimony. Um extremely powerful testimony and and I I yeah I would urge people to to watch this too. It's on YouTube.
>> Great. And I would love to be connected to her because I would love to have her on the show.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. And of course, full disclosure, my co-host of useful Idiots, Aaron Mate, was there >> and Erin Mate was there and I and I was there. [laughter] >> Yeah. And you were there and it was excellent. So, and we can link to that also. Um, we'll have such a Thank you again, Tara. And have a great night.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Good night.
>> Good night. Okay, so uh that was excellent. That was disturbing. That was so important. And their report is the result of a lot of hard work. And as Tara said, you know, we have to um it's painful as it should be and it's excruciating to read um because if you uh didn't you uh you know, if you're a human being, you're not going to uh enjoy it. But it is also really important to read. And it's actually like, you know, the history is I mean, it has fascinating history. I mean, it's it's history of evil, but it there it's just it's I mean, it's incredible to to see what these people documented. I mean, the the people who did it, they didn't hide it. Uh they didn't publish it, but they were writing about it in their diaries or writing about it to like their superiors. Um I think that Brad, um I have to ask your advice about this. Obviously, we're not going to pay wall any of this. I mean that's goes without say but Brad can you join I have to ask you something. Do you do you think we need to like uh take part of this? I'm worried that because of the content and we don't beep things out like that we should maybe like immediately cut this and upload just that part of it so that it doesn't like kind of uh get the rest of it suppressed. And then we can eventually make a version that has beeps so it gets does that make sense? So so the shama stuff doesn't get suppressed and we can put this up right away in another at another YouTube that won't have beeps but the suppression won't affect the shama thing and then after that we can do a beep version so that'll get even less suppressed.
Uh, well, my knee-jerk, um, I think that as long as we don't I don't know, it's inside baseball for for folks, but you know, when you do this sort of thing on YouTube, you have to kind of check a lot of boxes and you have to >> say like, is this suitable for kids and and things like that. And um I think that as long as we do that honestly and appropriately. Um but then that being said, >> kind of like um the other week where we played your very nice video, but it had some uh stuff that threw up some flags and we're like, "Oh, now we got to take that out." Okay.
>> I think that if that were to if we found that that were to be happening, then yeah, we could quickly and easily do what you were describing.
>> Yes.
>> So, if you are watching this and it cuts out kind of in a jarring way, um, >> hey guys, if you're watching this, the following may apply. So, to see the rest of this, we are not paywalling it obviously, but we are going to put it up elsewhere so the whole thing doesn't get demonetized.
and not demonetized. I don't care about that. Suppressed. We will put the link in the description. Now, that may or may not be applicable. So, this is kind of like I feel like we're in Back to the Future or something like that.
>> Right. Right. Hello, future people.
>> Exactly. Yeah. Um like if you're if you're watching this, that means they've whatever. Um >> I feel like we need to like spin a top and wait to see if it topples over.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway, I mean that was just very important and I'm very grateful to Tara for that and I I do feel like it's kind of the least we can do is is read about it um and uh you know take that in because again it pales in comparison to what the people have experienced um and it is Yeah.
>> Wow. Okay. Well, um we will be doing a stream on Friday um with uh Ro Kana um as well as with Kamal Mousellet who um whose father sorry Camil Muslet whose son was 20 years old safe when he was killed by Israeli settlers while visiting Palestine from Florida. He's a Palestinian-American.
That doesn't matter as we've covered before. Um and we actually have interviewed um another um relative of Safes um because Safe is the cousin of Muhammad and we interviewed his uncle.
Um Muhammad was tortured and imprisoned but was not killed. Um yeah. Uh okay.
So, anything else that we have to say, Brad? Make sure you like, make sure you subscribe. Again, liking does not is not for validation. We will not be paywwelling any of this, but please do.
We en encourage you to support the show by uh becoming Patreon supporters at patreon.com/thekatyhelper show or by becoming YouTube members. And thank you. Yes, we have two new members, right? So >> one new member, but it comes up twice.
I'm not sure why, but we we love to see it. Yeah, you count as twi two to pe to us. So thank you Miley. Then we have uh some nice super chats. Love to Shama Sant. This lady is a fighter. Um, thank you for having Shamaans, Katie. Um, free Palestine, free Lebanon.
>> It sucks that we continue have to have to add countries.
>> I know. Yeah. Iran. Uh, Katie, thanks for having Shama Swant on. She's the real deal. And we Seattleites needed this.
>> Yeah. Um, then we have a super chat.
Thank you. a super sticker from a name I can't read. Sar. No. Oh, no. Sar is the the Oh my god. It's currency. Yeah. Um >> I would have been really impressed if you read the name. Yes.
>> And that's our own fault. That's not this person's fault.
>> Yeah, of course. Um then a super sticker from Tana Hamd. Thank you for that. Um and then uh Tara, God bless you and your work. and let us read let's read the the recent Patreon subscribers that we have um since last stream.
Okay. Uh let's see. Um when was our last stream, Brad? What was the date?
>> That would have been And I need to just have this in my head before >> I know. It's my fault. Yeah.
um the 1st, 20th, the 17th.
>> Okay, so since then we have um thank you so much. Um uh let's see where are we? Okay, thank you so much. The 17th, you said >> I believe so. Yes.
>> Okay, so let's see. Thank you so much, uh Roberto.
Uh, thank you so much. Uh, Kim, thank you so much. Uh, second. Sorry about that. Um, usually it shows me their name. Oh, I know why. Let me do this. Okay, I got now. Okay. Thank you, Roberto. Thank you, Kim. Thank you, Ken. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Becky. Thank you, Danny. And that's uh that's all we have to say for right now. Um and again we will be here um uh we will be here on Friday with Roana and Camel. Um and again thank you for tuning in.
>> I did everything [music] right and they indicted me and I don't know what the I'm doing. [music] Antifa
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