A masterclass on the tension between commercial efficiency and the preservation of complex genetic heritage. Doc D reminds us that true botanical excellence requires the patience that modern industrial cultivation often lacks.
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Episode 115 ft Doc D of Doc D Seeds / Magic Spirit Seed Co - The Pot CastAñadido:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast, the cannabis podcast for budding enthusiasts. As usual, you're joined by your boy Heavy Days from the Upside Down Library. And as always, we want to give a massive shout out to our incredible sponsors who help make the episodes happen.
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On today, we have one of the cultreeders from our scene, the man who found the band-aid, Hayes, creator of Dr. these seeds. Magic Spirit Seed Company, a land race warrior and preserver of narrow leaf trait plants.
A massive, massive welcome to none other than Doc D taking the time to join us today here to chat all things breeding, plants, predictions for the future, and so much more.
So, without further delay, let's get into it.
All righty, gang. We're back for another one. And on today, a big welcome to one of the most cult followed breeders in the scene. A man behind the Band-Aid Haze, Dr. D's Seeds, and the Magic Spirit Seed Company, a land race warrior and preserver of narrowleaf drug traits.
A massive welcome to Dr. D for taking the time to join us today. how you doing?
>> Well, thank you, Heavy. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate the invite and uh look forward to having a nice conversation.
>> Oh, look, the the pleasure is all mine.
Uh, one of the questions we often start the show off with is what have you been smoking on recently?
>> Uh, so I have been smoking on, let's see, Triangle Kush, 92 OG, the Pure Kush. I got some Juicy Fruit Thai I just recently harvest along with my own dragon fruit tie, some big sir holy, some new pine dread bread testers, and then just a whole bunch of new stuff coming down that I'm going to be checking out, too.
>> Wow, a bunch of really cool varieties in the mixer. Let's start off. You mentioned a few OGs off the bat. I was cruising your Instagram. I noticed that there was quite a few very very tasty looking OGs in some photos. I wanted to hear what are some of your I get the impression you you you lean towards OG's and like them. What are some of your favorite OGs? I >> mean some of the ones I've really mentioned I Triangle Kush is one that I've had for years and years which I really really like. I mean at the end of the day the best OG is the one that you grow really well. Um, a lot of them have so many similarities to them, but you know, if you can really dial them in, I think those are the best OGs. But, I mean, the the Stalwarts, the the Triangle Kush, this 92 OG is a new one to me along with the Pure Kush. Um, but yeah, those are they're hard-hitting, potent strains, and I always dig those uh type of effects. So yeah, it's something I like to always have somewhere in my jar so I can always reach for those to kind of balance out the spectrum of things.
>> Yeah, I mean they're such like they're like the wheel, right? Like they're just so solid and staple. It's hard to not be into them. And um you know some super standouts you mentioned there. I'd love to ask what what sort of things do you like to pair with OGs in terms of your breeding? I know that you've done a number of different hybrids. is OG involved in them. What things do you find click well with it in terms of you know breeding?
I mean, you can do the like like kind of situation in which you take something that's very similar that's already an OG and try to refine the OG a little bit more, which I think is a really fun thing to do. And then you can kind of really try to mess with the morphology since, you know, the the OG plants themselves, the flowers are incredible, but the actual growth of them leaves a lot to be desired. So, it allows you to play with that whether you, you know, want to shrink down the frame of an OG or really explode it with something a little more warm flowering and see how those beautiful delicate flowers kind of translate to maybe a bigger frame and see if that really provides some nice synergy between the two.
>> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, being able to get those those growing traits a bit better is it would really round out the plant, right? And I know on on some of the more recent episodes we we had Sunny Chver on not that long ago and um he he mentioned about how you know at this point he's sort of thinking that like one of the big issues with OG is the way like you know there's such a big push for concentrates within the the broader consumer community. You know people are using pens, people are using extracts in various forms that you know like OG typically speaking like you know it doesn't wash very well or at least most of them don't. Um, you know, I'm I'm curious as to whether you've ever seen any of your OG hybrids that work better in that concentrate realm.
>> You know, it's not something I focus on as much. I find a lot of the people that are more drawn towards my genetics typically aren't in the commercial setting since so many of my strains typically go past 70 days and that's almost a non-starter for most of these commercial cannabis farms. So, I mean, I really get those dedicated heads that want something unique. The yield and the way it grows is less important to most of my clients than it is how it smokes. You know, it's the potency, it's the flavor that are the main drivers and someone who really comes looking for what I have to offer.
And I do think the commercial market because it's geared towards different objectives, they do limit themselves in a lot of the special cannabis that's out there.
Yeah. No, totally. I mean, as you said, it can be so confining to have to work within the realms of production and uh yeah, I've heard people talk about, you know, like the strain needs to be harvestable at like 7 weeks maybe. And and I just sort of think like I really don't know how many strains I've come across that are genuinely peing at that point. You know, you could maybe do it, but uh as you said, you know, looking at around that sort of 70day mark is is where a lot of your strains are sitting.
And I I'd picked up on that and I guess I wanted to ask you about that specifically. Um, and maybe we can talk a bit more about some of your your breeding work in general, but I noticed that it seemed like a lot of your varieties were finishing in that sort of 70 to 80day range. And I wondered is that conscious in terms of like I know that you you want to offer narrowly for idols um but obviously some of them can go a lot longer than that. Are you trying to get them down to that point where that's sort of, you know, like something some people might be able to work with or is that sort of not specifically a goal? It just sort of worked out that way.
>> A kind of let the plants speak for themselves and kind of tell me what direction to take them. It's never been my driving focus to lower flowering times, at least maybe until recently. We can talk later about the Band-Aid Haze line, but my newest release of the Band-Aid Haze line is probably my first attempt to really try to rein in the flowering time, give some people something a little bit different than some of the other Band-Aid haze lines I've released in the past. Though, typically though, I mean, even with me shortening down the flowering time, you're still looking from, you know, 70 to 85 days, which commercially isn't really going to work. But for someone uh in the home setting who wants to explore the cannabis gene pool but doesn't necessarily want to take something 13, 14, 15 weeks, it kind of gives them something a little more accessible. That way if they screw up, you know, they're not out as much time or or money.
>> Yeah, totally. Totally. I mean, I know that it can be such a commitment to to lock in for, you know, 15 16 plus weeks and and and certainly to be able to try something at that shorter range. I mean even like you know 70 80 days I think is like a bargain generally speaking but I guess the reality is you know most people haven't been able to try the magic that some of these longer flowering varieties can really offer cuz from my perspective I feel like you have to you have to sort of try it and then you're like oh I get it like I I I see why people are doing this. Um, and and we had a sort of a Patreon question that's like a good little segue into all of that, which was, you know, someone was really curious about like, you know, in your opinion, what's the best way to introduce smokers to sort of the longer flowering narrow leaf drug type varieties? You know, like is it as simple as you just got to give them a bud and and hope they really enjoy it?
or have you had any thoughts about how we might be able to open that sort of um you know realm of the gene pool to more more growers who maybe aren't there yet?
>> I think uh definitely from the the consumer's perspective, you'd like to see those types of flowers on the shelves. I mean, even before I really started my quest to try to find the most more unique genetics back in the medical scene in Washington, I would try to seek out these types of varieties that you wouldn't normally see, whether it's a a Malawi gold or a Thai, and every so often you would see those on the shelves. So, just being able to dip your toe in and and try some finished flowers that you connect with hopefully inspires you to maybe want to try those things in your own garden. So, there was the mix of that and then the mix of just wanting to explore the cannabis gene pool. I mean, you get some people get a little more bored of the normal flavors and are looking for something pretty different.
And that's what really called to me and I don't know if that calls to everybody.
I mean, you've had Ace Genetics out there for as long as almost I've been growing. So, there's always been options for people who really do want to seek out those types of things. And I do think now more than ever there's a whole host of options. And that wasn't necessarily the case when I first started. It was pretty limited to real seekers of long flowering strains. And now, you know, which is amazing, but people have um definitely queued into how unique some of these genetics are and there's more people than ever working with them, which I find is great.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's definitely more and more people working with them, right? And it's it's interesting because it's sort of like it does feel like getting, as you said, getting flowers on the shelf is undeniably a really effective way to get people into it. And it feels like it's just it's hard to get people to to grow it. I I remember one time I chatted to Bod and he was sort of saying, you know, you put a post up about making some some sort of, you know, long flowering variety and the comments are full of all these people who are like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, super keen, super keen." And then like when they're finally available like it's it's you know it's a bit of more tumble weed and crickets sort of thing and um you know sort of referencing that like there's a lot of people who really keen in theory but when push comes to shove and you're actually sort of you know like are you actually able to maybe allocate a little bit of room in the corner to one of these plants it can actually be pretty hard to um and and there's a lot of competing factors as you said you know people are paying bills and of course it's like a passion project for a lot of people but the commercial stuff is just such a big factor in, you know, being able to put food on the table. Um, I wonder, you know, I've always thought for a while, you know, this idea of just just like one spot in the corner, you know, like that's all you got to do really, like even if you just had one plan in the corner, it's better than nothing. Um, what's what's your thoughts? How can how can we get the average grower to give it a go if they're a bit on the fence, >> you know, and it really depends on your growing style, you know? Are you someone who is doing a perpetual harvest? you're constantly putting in new plants and taking out a few plants. If that's the case, you have a lot more flexibility to be able to put that really long flowering plant in the corner. You're still harvesting plants that finish at 9 and 1 half 10 weeks. So, you're getting your jars filled. You're still happy with the flower you have. But then 14 weeks later, when this yeast is finally ready, you know, you're not feeling as anxious. In terms of the commercial aspect, it becomes a lot harder because you're not going to be able to do that, right? You're mostly monocropping in big rooms all set with one type of flower. So, I totally understand. And on top of that, the difficulty of growing these types of plants is not for everybody. So, it just it it doesn't really lend itself to the commercial market. And I think for those of us that are not doing it on a commercial scale, but really just looking to connect with plants, it is about exploration. And some people don't need a path. They're going to go hike up the mountain and just do it themselves because they want to explore and really um carve their own path. And other people, they want to be shown. You know, they want to see the photos, the description. They want you to tell them how incredible something is. and only at that point will they truly get excited and maybe decide to dip a toe in. So, it's it's really just showing people what's out there and and trying to inspire them to want to seek those plants out and and um grow them on their own and and uh go for their own quest, their own journey.
>> Brilliant. I love it. You know, as you were talking about that, I sort of wondered what was what was my gateway sort of thing. And I think to be honest, although it's not strictly speaking what you're talking about, it probably would have been flowering out some C99 type stuff and being like, "Wow, I like this sort of racier stuff and then getting curious about the more longer flowering stuff." But you've got me curious, you know, what what would be some like entrylevel varieties that you think might get people on that track? Because obviously, you know, it can be really daunting. You know, there's a lot of people out there who probably want to grow some longer flowering stuff, but as you said, there's like Ace and, you know, they've been producing really killer stuff for years, but some of that stuff is like, you know, 24 weeks, like it's really wild. And then, you know, there's people like yourself um who are offering some some stuff that's a bit more tamed. What whether it's your stuff or other people's stuff, what's some entry- level varieties that jump to mind that you think might be like a good little stepping stone for someone to consider if they were like, you know, maybe I could do a 77day plan or something like that. What jumps to mind?
>> You know, I always thought like the C99 and the Apollo lines were super uh friendly to entry level growers. They uh have a more um narrow leaf look to them. They grow more similar to a hybrid and then they won't really finish over 70 days. So, you know, you can kind of dip your toe in um to a variety like that. You know, I'm growing a juicy fruit tone with an old um dense seed selection that grows beautiful. It finishes in 75 days. It has more of a a black currant tie type thing, but there's, you know, there's most varieties um that are heavily hybridized on the narrow leaf side are going to be finishing in relatively short. I mean, 75 days for me is just a couple more days over an OG. I mean, all my OGs I take pretty much to 70 days.
So, for me to say, "Oh, it's going to be in my flower room for an extra week or an extra 14 days." It's for me it's not that big of a deal. On the commercial side, of course, you're going to see that as you know, multiply times how many over the year and that's going to not work for you. But on the personal side, yeah, I mean, I I do think that there's a lot of varieties that have been worked by the Dutch scene that you can kind of queue into and uh are fairly easy to grow and kind of give you a nice stepping stone into some of the more exotic later flowering genetics.
Yeah, totally. That's what I think, you know. Yeah, especially on the hobby level, like, you know, 77 days, 84 days, not that much more than 70. And I agree with you. I I reckon OG needs to go 70 to really shine. Tell us about that Juicy Fruit. That sounds really cool.
You know, like I think a lot of people have heard about Juicy Fruit from being a strain of yesterday year and um certainly a lot of growers who have fond memories about it. How would you describe the one that you're growing in terms of smells and effects? And you know, does it sort of live up to some of the memories in your mind?
>> The cut I'm growing with, I've only had it um in my library for about a year.
I've had a couple harvests of it, and it's it's a fantastic plant. Super easy to grow. It has narrow leaves, excellent structure, great resin production. So, all those kind of modern hybrid things that ticks off. The appearance itself looks very similar to like an Apollo 11 or a C99.
And the effects themselves is cerebral, creative, nonlethargic. So, it allows me to, you know, smoke early in the day, still get a lot of things done, which I really look for in a a nice strain.
>> And is it like what sort of um aromomas do you get from it?
>> So, this one in particular is like a black currant. So it's kind of like a black currant type soda. I mean you could say it's like the juicy fruit gum.
It definitely has relationship to that when you're smelling it. So pretty different than something like an Apollo which for me is more on the pineapple weeder side but this is a very similar morphology when you're looking at the plants but when you smell them pretty different.
>> And you know often you hear about the idea of like Juicy Fruit Thai. Does this strike you as a pure variety or do you think it's been hybridized?
>> From my understanding, this is from Sensei Seedtock. So, the Thai is one part of it and the Afghan's the other part of it. So, I mean, you don't see too much of the Afghan traits besides it just being quicker to flower. Excellent resin production and not super pistol heavy, not you know, it has a really modern look to it which I think most people enjoy.
>> That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay, cool. And and I know earlier on, you know, you you mentioned the big sir holyweed. Um or maybe at least I I was just uh having a Freudian slip and thinking about it. You know, that's like another variety in my mind that's from, you know, a similar era a little while ago. Um tell us a bit about your big sir holyweed stuff.
>> Yeah. So over the years I've tried a couple different big sir holy weeds.
There's a cut that I connected with lemon ho of green jean uh green beans on a while ago. Uh that's kind of my introduction to the big s holy maybe around 2012 2013. We were on a local forum together and he advertised that he he had his big sir holy cut. It was uh selected from early reefer man genetics. So that's how I connected with him. So that was one of the original big sir holy clones that I had for a while was his selection. And uh after that I got really interested still in in more big sir holyweed genetics and that's when Booty released his his version big sir holy bud. And so I grew that one out from seed and I've done a reproduction of that one and I'm actually growing those out again. Um and they're pretty different. So I've grown lemon hocos cut which was from reefer man. I've grown Bodies, Big Sir Holy Bud, and then I also grew Snow High's reproduction of a big sir holy weed. I'm not I can't recall exactly um where those were sourced from, but the ones that impressed me the most was definitely less cut. Um it's pretty much a a squat short narrow leaf lemon eucalyptus sativa. It finishes in about 9 and 1/2 weeks.
uh extremely reinous, but the it doesn't yield very much and the flowers themselves aren't very dense. It's much more leafy. So, it has a lot of really beautiful qualities about it, but also can benefit from from breeding a lot. Um the Big S holy bud line is a really cool line. It's a little more robust growing.
There's a wider spectrum of types of plants from super stout kind of gany afghani plants to bigger more hybridish type plants. Not not anything on the pure sativa or narrow leaf side of things, but definitely big and interesting. And then that one has much different scents. Something from like a blueberry menthol to a licorice to uh doggy bread. It's got a really different type of vibe and aroma from it, but much more robust, I would say, than uh some of the stuff I found in the Big Sur Holy Wee from the Reefer Man lemon Hokco stock.
Yeah, interesting. I mean, it is one of those varieties where like it kind of reminds me a bit of the uh the Alaskan [ __ ] where it's like, you know, like is it one thing? Is it a few things from that area? You know, it sort of feels a bit in that vein. And I mean, out of curiosity, what what do you think might be some of the components in there? Do do you view it like that Alaskan [ __ ] thing where it's like it could just be a few things from that same area and that's why you see the difference or you think it's just like an unworked F1 hybrid and that's why you see the variance? What's your thoughts on the background of it all?
You know, it's so difficult to really tell with with things being underground for so long. And you know, I think people like to think that they have one thing and might be something else.
There's so much confusion when it comes to strains. Even Lemon Hoko's Big Sir Holy Wee in which he got a pack from Reefer Man. And I've shown Reaper man some of the photos when we talked years and years ago and he thinks that it was maybe actually his love potion that he mixed up the the seeds, right? When when you describe to him um what you find in that big store holy, he says, "Oh, actually I think that might be love potion." So, you know, there's even confusion among that. Even if you think you have something and maybe you have the packaging to back it up, maybe that was not even what it really is. Um when I look at Bod's big sir holy bud line itself I mean you definitely see components what looks to be some sort of point of origin equatorial strain mixed with some sort of Afghany just in the way the leaves look the general shape the the overall vigor of the plants and when I do look at lamb's big sir holy weed line I mean some of those aromomas are not similar to the other big sir holy weede lines um and when rement and talks about it being love potion and the fact that he and when you look at that that's a fan art of Columbian gold and so when I think about kind of citrus floral stuff it makes maybe a little more sense so it makes it difficult because I want I tend to just keep things labeled as they are and because once you start changing around the labeling things become even more and more confusing so you know on the back end we can have these types of conversations that way you know people can kind of make up their own opinions Yeah. No, totally. Totally right. And I mean I agree with you. Ultimately just keeping things labeled as they are can in a in a pragmatic sense maybe be the best option because otherwise yeah like I mean you don't really who's to say what it is. All I can do is you know be a steward of what it's been given to me as. And you know if if if more info comes to light we can go from there. But that's interesting to hear that um you know reefer man thought maybe as the love potion. I mean he certainly obviously you know love potion being one of his really big lines over the years he'd probably be very familiar with it.
So there you go. That that's interesting to hear that. Um let's go back let's go back and and talk about some of the uh the the early days. You know take me back to your your very first experience with cannabis. What was the first time you used it or interacted with it?
probably the the first time I ever smoked. I guess I was 13 or 14. Parents were away out of town. They would take little trips up to Vancouver and uh it was me and my brother and his friend over at the house and they wanted to introduce me to smoking cannabis. So brought me outside. They had their little bong and uh gave that thing a couple rips. But like most people, you know, the first time did not do it for me. So, pretty common story. And through junior high and high school, I definitely smoked more in social settings and really didn't probably connect with cannabis until after high school, moving out on my own, being able to partake in cannabis solo by myself and get kind of the full experience of what it meant to me and and how I really connected with the plant.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's really curious cuz you you speak to the idea of set and setting and um you know I think a lot of people you know including myself you know certainly didn't really get high on the first try. Um tell me a bit what was it when you're on your own you know was I mean when you when you tell that story it conjures images of like sort of a more introspective um like almost meditative sort of experience with it. But I'd be curious what was it for you when you're on your own that really helped it speak to you a bit more?
I think probably the creative aspect of it. You know, as a musician, I just really connected with being able to smoke and getting inspiration.
You know, nothing better for me to tell quality of smoke is halfway through a joint, I get inspired to go do something, right? I don't even make it through the entire joint because that cannabis has put me in such a mindset that I just want I need to get up and immediately go do something. And that's kind of the way good cannabis to me, the first few times that I had cannabis, it was that type of experience. You smoke, it makes me excited about the world. Um, and more so than just a social setting, because when you are in that social setting, you're smoking, there could be a lot of different reasons why you're having a good time. But when you're by yourself, it's just you and the plant. And you kind of really get to interact and see, how is this making me feel? Does it make me want to go do something? Do I want to take a nap? Do I want to read? Do I want to paint? Do I want to write music? So, being inspired in a way that other substances didn't make me feel, especially alcohol, you know, it's something I connected with cannabis much more than any of my other friends ever did.
>> Yeah. Nice. Nice. I love that. That idea of, you know, having to go do something halfway through the joint. That's that's a beautiful sort of expression. And out of curiosity, were there any sort of standout or memorable names of things you were trying at that time? Was it were you smoking stuff you didn't really know what it was or what were some of the more impressionable buds you had back then?
>> You know, I didn't really grow up in a community with a whole lot of smokers.
You know, I didn't have the cool uncle or the super cool brother who were mega stoners. You know, I am the the first in my family to really love cannabis and be into it, unlike a lot of people that come on the podcast. You know, I hear people with these amazing stories about their brother, their uncle, you know, or their father always being in the industry and kind of showing them the rope, what was good, what wasn't. And for me, it it came from a different place, I guess.
You know, it was uh solely driven by me wanting to find good cannabis and because not knowing what the cannabis I was smoking that really I I didn't like that. I I really like to know what I was smoking and that's why being able to grow it myself and know what I'm smoking was a huge step forward for me. I mean, the worst part was meeting up with the drug, meeting up with your dealer, you know, that awkward experience or, you know, not having cannabis and wanting to get it and trying to meet up with somebody and that awkward experience and when you get it may or may not be good doesn't have a name even when you ask for it, you know, because they're so low on the totem pole. they don't even really know what it is or care, you know, and uh at some point I just I think I re I reached a breaking point and especially when I was finally on my own and uh in a a setting that was safe for me to be able to grow and not feel like I was going to be compromised. That's when I kind of pulled the plug, started ordering seeds, doing the trips to Vancouver, trying to buy seeds, and and really getting into cannabis on that level.
>> I love that. so many parallels that mirror my own sort of journey as well.
So, I'm right there with you. You know, when we hear people talk about being sort of, you know, uh introduced to the scene by their their in the then family member, I'm right there with you. You know, I sort of had to just ultimately get just decide to do it myself at one point. And um you were you were near the Vancouver area. Um being in Washington, um might have been a little before your time, I'm guessing. Um, where were you going when you went to Vancouver to get that stuff? What was that journey like?
What strains did you end up growing initially? Was it I'm guessing this is after like the Mark Emory heyday stuff and it's a bit more in that legal climate or lay the lay the scene for us.
>> So, it would have been the the mid2000s when I first started growing and you know at that point I wasn't really big into forums or online stuff. There was a co-orker of mine who would kind of introduce me to forums because he liked all kinds of forums whether it was electronics or cannabis or whatever. So he kind of introduced me to the forums, but for for getting seeds, I mean, it was High Times catalog, you know, the BC Bud Depot, took some of my money early on, didn't give me any seeds. Um, and then yeah, driving up to driving up to Vancouver. It was I think it was the Vancouver Island Seed Bank, I grew uh I bought a strain, Emerald Wonder, which I can't recall the genetics of, and I tried to look it back up again, but hadn't been successful in determining what it was, and then a Ramulan grapefruit. So, those were kind of my some of my very first strains that I tried growing out. This is also when the purple craze was happening. So, I think Purple Wreck by DNA Genetics was one of the first successful orders that I made with the Attitude Seed Bank. Um, so yeah, probably some of the Purple stuff is what I was looking for when I first started growing. And then like I said, yeah, the Romulan grapefruit was something I got for the Vancouver Island Seed Bank and and and check that out.
Um, so yeah, those are probably some of my very first things that I I ended up growing out that wasn't bag seed or given to me by a friend.
>> Oh, wow. I mean that that's that's cool to hear that you got to try that Romulan grapefruit. You know, I can only assume given the time frame that there was probably the real deal for both of the parental lines and you know it sounds like a real Canadian staple in a sense.
You know, two two really well-known Canadian varieties there. So that's that's really interesting. Um when you were doing that growth, give us give us an idea about the setup. You know, like I used to take great pride in >> having this real janky sort of setup and making some halfdeent quality stuff.
What was your setup?
>> Well, that's it. You know, I it was right when I first started growing. I was living in downtown Seattle on Capitol Hill. I had a studio apartment.
Luckily, I um I knew the uh the managers of the apartment, so was kind of able to kick them some butts, kind of stay a little bit under the radar, not have the the managers checking out my apartment all the time. But it was a, you know, half of the half the studio was essentially a a wall curtain wall and behind that was my, you know, a couple 3x3 tents set up with the the old magnetic ballast and super uh super loud can fan just sounding like a turbine jet in my little studio apartment there. So, I'm sure it was pretty obvious to most folks uh living on in my apartment what I was doing. But yeah, it was a it was very simple setup. Um, but did the trick, you know, it really it sparked the love in cannabis for me is having those first few harvests that turn out well. I've seen a lot of people that start the journey, have a few bad harvests, and then kind of give up the hobby, which makes sense. But for me, you know, I I really connected with these plants and it was something I enjoyed doing. You know, you have a hard day work, you come back, you take care of your plants, you have some awesome smoke, and that really made me happy.
You know, it wasn't bruising around uh trying to get drains from a dealer and not knowing what that was. It was finally having top shelf smoke that I knew exactly what it was back when most people didn't know what strains they were smoking.
>> Yeah. Wow. I mean, I love that. I definitely remember those days, you know, like going to work, coming home, tending to the plants, and when you're in those newbie sort of more fledgling stages of growing, it's there's this real sense of awe around that sort of grow cycle and just to be doing it, you know, it's it's cool. Tell tell me a little bit about how you were growing.
Were you growing like I'm I'm assuming it's organic or um what was it what was it like back then?
>> Yeah, you know, semi-organic. I did I think a lot of people kind of end up running through a bunch of different nutrient cycles and kind of different companies and seeing what really works for them. And so I did the same. You know, you do something like advanced nutrients to botanicare and then all kinds of little subtle products and you get sold on all kinds of things. And at the end of the day, what I kind of learned from doing super soil and organic and synthetic is there is no right way to do it. It's pretty much what works for you. And there's an incredible amount of ways to do it. But what it really comes down to is just attention to detail, getting in there and doing the work every single day. Um, and listening to your plants. You know, your plants would tell you a lot. And if you're able to respond to that, pretty much most systems will work. But it is about being in tune with your plants more than anything else. I think that's what I learned those first few years is just being in tune with your plants, being there for your plans, you know.
Um, don't do tomorrow. The tasks that are need to be done today should be done today. Um, and I think cannabis more than a lot of different plants teaches you discipline because you have to be there every single day in my opinion for things to really go smoothly. I mean, just like a bodybuilder needs to put in that time in the gym. I think the same thing applies to the cannabis grower.
There's no real shortcuts. You just have to show up, be there with your plans, and make sure that they're well taken care of.
>> Totally right. And I guess that's where that old saying comes from. You know, the best fertilizer is the farmer's shadow. Um I I think yeah, there's definitely something to be said about spending that quality time with the plants. And um I I agree. You know, you you try a whole bunch of different stuff to ultimately settle on what works for you more so than the right approach. And and I'm at the point now where I, you know, I've been growing organic for so long. I'm actually actually kind of excited to do like a bit of a Synganics run and to just change it up just to see see, you know, there's got to be something to be said. A lot of people are doing it, but um if we progress forward, you know, you've you've been doing your initial grows. Um what what was the journey like? Was it was it the case that you sort of got a bit more tapped into the local scene and you got even more down the rabbit hole so to speak or was it that you made some sort of decision of like you know what I think this could be like a sort of a career path for me? What was that transition like from sort of being you know like growing yourself and being really keen to getting a bit more deeper into it all?
>> Yeah, I mean I was a pretty private person I would say for the first five or six years of growing. I mean, I checked out the forums for basic information and to understand what people were interested in, but I didn't really post.
I mean, I do think for the first few years of growing, you probably don't have that much expertise or opinion that's super valid to share. I mean, you're you're in such an infancy of really testing the waters. Um, so it wasn't until maybe four or five years after I had been growing that I decided to start a handle on a local forum.
It was called Northwest Green Thumb and it was more geared towards the medical community in Washington State, which I thought was which really appealed to me more than some of the bigger forums with people all over the place. So this was kind of that was my first introduction to kind of a a local scene um all for medical card holders. So I joined that up and at that point I thought I had some pretty cool strains to share with people and that's kind of what I did. Um so one of the first strains that I shared with a lot of people was my Dank Sinatra cut. So that was actually my first uh first line that I ever grew from Bodie was the Dank Sinatra line. I think it was in 2012 and I loved it. I thought it was such a unique interesting plant and obviously I really connected with Bod and I I thought his his ethos and the way he described plants and uh it got me excited. So it was rare genetics and when I joined that site I was able to offer flower clones and be able to connect with people that way. So that was kind of my first introduction into the the world of cannabis and really trying to connect with other growers. Before that, I was definitely kind of an island. I appreciated what I was doing on my own, but just really shared it with super close friends and that was it. So it wasn't until Northwest Green Thumb and that forum that I kind of decided to open up and uh really start trying to connect with people around this point.
>> Ah, nice. And is that where um I was speaking to Lemon Hokco a while ago. Is that where you met him? And because his whole Northwest 47 thing, is that where that originally came from?
Yeah. You know, there was a lot of really good people on that um on that site. So, Lemon Hoka was on there. Uh let's see who else you had. Ka was on there from Pacific Northwest Roots.
Exotic Mike was on there. um some kind of smaller breeders now, but uh Redeye Genetics was on there. Eric from Dungeon Vault Genetics was on there. Even Fletch from Archive was on there for a while. So, at the time there was just it was a whole host of people that were in the Washington medical scene that were connecting on that website. It was kind of semi-private, which I think allowed people to feel comfortable kind of connecting and meeting up. But, you know, I I haven't really experienced much of a comm community much of a local community that I did when when that website was up and running. So, you know, there are moments uh that are pretty amazing. These special times in the cannabis industry that are fleeting. You know, just like any kind of scene, it's there's a few years that I think really are memorable for people. Um and but those pass pretty quick. So, it's best to enjoy them when you're in it.
>> Oh, totally right. I can only imagine what it would have been like, you know, in that real heyday and having that tight-knit community. Sounds really cool. Was there any specific sort of um you know, genetics that were quite stand out to you that you got access to around that time or was it more of like a knowledge thing? Um yeah, what I mean because it sounds super memorable.
>> No, it was really cool to see what everyone was growing. um and kind of local favorites. I remember Dutch Treat was a super huge popular favorite one in the area, but it was great to see people showcase their work. You know, Lemon Hoka was doing all this blueberry work.
You'd see all the testers there and then on top of that, you know, people would come together for gettogethers based on that community, do big barbecues, and it was a supportive community. Um the main strength that I was drawn towards was was Lem when he had his big Sir Holy Weed. I mean, that's actually why I became such good friends with Lemon Hokco and he him as well as Bod kind of became my mentors. Um, but yeah, it was is connecting through strains. You know, he had an heirloom strain that was uh not very common, something that I was looking for. So, that's what drew me to him. Um, and that's kind of overall why I was drawn towards Bod and a lot of other people. you know, it's the strength that they have and that they find interesting and you kind of connect on that that type of level. Um, but yeah, people were doing interesting stuff. I remember Exotic Mike had a a feno of peyote purple that was pretty crazy looking that he offered to the community. Um, yeah. Gez, I had to think a little bit about that back to those old times. But yeah, lots of good stuff was being passed around. I guess Udub was being passed around a lot. you know, the the different types of UDub cuts that were going around the area. Um, I guess Pez, Pez was a pretty popular one, although it didn't get as much love on the forum. Was definitely a sta staple in the Pacific Northwest area.
Yeah, but those are some good ones for sure.
>> Yeah. No, it's funny you mentioned that cut of peyote purple. I forget that there was that one that went around the Washington, Oregon area that um I think I initially saw that through a guy called Medicarropper. Um but anyway, that yeah, some real blast from the past. So that's cool. Peas and Udub, I've heard of both of those. Obviously Udub, you know, gets a bit more of a shout out these days. But that's really that's really cool to hear that that was how you sort of got into it a bit more.
Before we we jump into, you know, sort of um you know, doing a bit more work and and teaming up with Bod, I wanted to quickly ask you would did you have the name Doc D by then? And if so, um where did it come from?
>> Yeah, I mean that's when I created the name was when I was joining the forums, you know, and I think at the time I just wanted a name that was simple to say when I was meeting up with people. I think people choose some pretty unique, interesting, silly screen names and I wanted something that was kind of more generic and easy to say. Um, but yeah, I mean there's there's some under layers of why I picked the name Doc D, but for the most part it's just simplicity and sounds easy, rolls off the tongue. For the most part, when I realized I'd be meeting up with people, saying doc was a was a pretty easy thing to go about. and the fact that you know we are all doctors. I see people as clients and we are all all it's the the western version of the mystic is the doctor. So that's that's what I am.
>> I love it. That's awesome. Um pragmatic if nothing else. That's really good. Um >> I wanted to ask you because I forgot to mention it a bit earlier. I I'll get flamed if I don't. You mentioned, you know, you had this dank Sonatra cut. You shared it with the community. Tell me what was it like? Cuz I remember when I first hit, it sounds like that was about the time when I first started growing cuz I remember I would look at Attitude and you know there was all this demand for Dank Sinatra the Stra constantly sold out. Um tell me what was your cut like?
>> Yeah, I mean the one I really connected with was a stout broadleaf gany plant.
It had kind of more the turkey dinner earthy aroma to it. something that at the time I wasn't familiar with. You know, you go through these kind of milestone checkpoints in your growing career where things are new and novel and then you've experienced them and when you run across it again, it's not this new novel thing. So that's what Denonata was for me. I hadn't really I hadn't tried any of the cushions before.
I wasn't super familiar with most gany strains before. So in itself it was a novel very cool unique plant and again like you said it's the there was a lot of people interested in it. It has a super cool name. Um so when I was offering that to the community people were pretty excited about it.
>> Hell yeah. And out of curiosity you know over the years there's been these sort of spikes in interest around the original LA Afy. Did you ever get a chance to try the the M and compare?
No, I never did. It always seemed like a really really cool plant to try to check out, but didn't seem like it made it into enough hands to really get spread around where I'm not even sure if it exists anymore. I hopefully it's still held tight in someone's grow room, but yeah, it doesn't get as much love as it used to, for sure.
>> Yeah, definitely. I that's sort of how I've always thought about it and I got the sense that even the DNA guys probably didn't have it anymore.
Otherwise, you'd probably see LA Con still being offered because that was, you know, that was I think in a sense, you know, Dank Sinatra was sort of in a similar realm to the LA Con and people were so interested in it. Um, but I mean, while we're talking about Bod, tell us a bit, you know, what was your first introduction to to Bod like? and and how did you end up sort of growing closer over time to the point where you know you you're you're quite you know working a lot with his genetics and and just having that close friendship and mentorship.
>> Yeah. I guess it it's kind of a slow evolution. You know, you you start by kind of being interested in in a guy's work, which at the time Bodie was doing something totally different than 99% of the growers or breeders out there. um in the way that he described his strains, you know, he kind of opened up a world of knowledge that I I didn't have before reading his descriptions. You know, he would tell you where things came from, what the clone was, possibly breeders to to look into. Um so, you know, just his basic descriptions really inspired me to check out his stuff. Um, so it went from just a a client of his, a customer buying, growing, and appreciating his gear. And at the time he was doing a lot of testers, you know, so who didn't want to be on Bod's tester list. So it wasn't until 2012 or 2013 when I had already grown, you know, maybe half a dozen to a dozen of his strains that I requested to be a tester. And actually, the tester strain was the what would now be the Band-Aid Haze. It was that was the first strain along with Black Triangle remix.
So those were kind of my first official tester strains from from Bod and that was I guess 2013 is when those were sent to me.
>> Wow.
>> Um so yeah. No, that's that was kind of the the initial inception. I mean it was there was no heavy dialogue or communication back and forth between us, you know. It was a me loving all the work that he was putting out, being a fan, requesting to be a tester. I had already, you know, posted a lot of the photos of how I grew and some of the uh some of the flowers and yeah, when he sent that to me, I mean, it the band-aid haze originally was just Cuban black haze across the A5. That's how we kind of knew it when the the testers were first sent out to me. Um, and once I grew those out, I had a couple runs with them, you know, I gave him smoke reports and and and photos of the flowers and he was so interested in what I had found in that cross that he asked that I send it to him. And so that's that was our first official trade was me finding something really cool in his testers relaying and describing what I found, him finding interest in that and us doing our first initial trade.
>> Yeah. Wow. That's I mean really, you know, kind of mind-blowing stuff that the first the first cross you test for him is is the uh the band-aid haze. And obviously we'll we'll go on to talk more about it. I mean, walk me through that first grow in terms of, you know, you've you've popped these seeds, you're growing them. Was it immediately obvious to you that there was something special going on? Was it more Were there any standout thoughts throughout the grow?
Was it more sort of when you were smoking it that you were like, "Oh, you know, like how did that go down?"
>> Well, you know, it was it was a tarpine profile I had never really encountered before. And I think that's kind of the story about most people's evolution through cannabis is the longer you do it, the more things you're ex you're exposed to and those things that are kind of novel become a little more common. But up until that point, I mean, I had never smelt a mere scene dominant haze before. I mean, I had grown a lot of at that point a seeds, no high stuff, um, and had really started dabbling into those longer flowering strains.
I had never grown anything from the the Cuban black haze before. So, when I initially drew it, you could tell that the plant itself, just the morphology of it, it was a really regal, beautiful plant. And that was before they started putting out the flowers. You know, it probably wasn't until I harvested the flowers and shared them with an East Coast friend, my buddy Matt at Kayona, and getting that feedback from other folks, it kind of solidified that this was a super special line and plant, just given their experience and what they knew to look for. I mean, I knew nothing about East Coast haze or piff plants, so I wasn't able to really put it into that category, but sending it to my friend on the East Coast who loved PIFF, grew up with that, he was the first one to tell me, "Oh man, this is this is piff." You know, from someone who never experienced anything, you know, I had uh no experience to reference back to what a New York haze or piff style plant was.
Um, so yeah, I just kind of ran with that.
Uh, but initially, yeah, it was a beautiful plant. I mean, it's in and of itself is a super regal, beautiful plant. Um, the resin production is incredible. And then the high, I mean, you smoke it and it's just has a a different type of effect that isn't found in other wines that I ever experienced. So due to the fact that I connected with it, I continued to grow it and then it was amazing by passing it to other people how much other people connected with it and wanted to share it and continue growing it. So it was a very natural progression just driven by people who appreciate good bud. I mean it's not an easy plant to grow or easy line to grow. So it it comes from a place of people wanting to seek out something different, unique effects, unique smells that weren't super common place um you know 10 12 years ago.
>> Yeah, totally. Totally. I mean that's such a cool story to hear that you like you know you're sort of sitting on this gold and it was uh it was when Matt from Kona was able to to let you know. I mean, I guess a lot of people out there, you know, have never had the ability to try PF. I I myself have never tried Piff. Um, like the original Cuban Black Haze. And, um, you know, Band-Aid Haze, as you've said, is in that same vein.
Um, maybe you could describe like what's it similar to? Like what's the effect like? Is it is it like, you know, paranoia and uplifting? Is it clearheaded and uplifting?
um give us a bit of an idea for those who have never tried it or the PIFF like what it's actually like to experience it.
I >> mean I think people maybe confuse PIFF with like a pure point of origin equatorial strain because it is long flowering but that's kind of that is not the effect. The effect is mostly full spectrum. I mean you're getting a lot of complexities in there.
uh it is a creative, it is super cerebral, it is not super lethargic, but it is not clear. It is not super functional. So, and that's what people like about it. I mean, it's like really really potent cannabis, but also what I like about it is you could it allows you to be creative. It still allows you to function and get work done. I mean, within reason in your maybe in within your home. Um, so it is really really potent cannabis uh that is more full spectrum than what people might expect and I think that really comes from you're taking a tarpine like mirine mirine dominant and instead of it being in a short flowering plant you're putting that same tarpin in something that flowers for a really long time and I think that really modulates the tarpine. kind of gives you this super tripped out effect because you're taking something that oftent times is more seditive in that mirine effect, but you're adding that longer flowering aspect to it and I think that really modulates the high and kind of that's why it kind of scramles people's brains and you know really makes an impression on them because it is such a different type of turping you would expect in a long flowering plant.
>> Yeah, totally right. Like I mean I think so many people are so used to just having that sort of tendolene base um within these sort of more hazy long flowering varieties that when you get that what I what I relate to being a more indica base being the the mercene um I I can totally get what you're saying and I remember definitely feeling like even just um having been able to try some of the um C99 stuff, the stuff that leans towards the princess I feel is in that same vein of like it's very disorientating and it's got that like indica sort of um knock you around feel to it whereas some of the more genius stuff I was able to try is that more clearheaded and functional and I can definitely see what you mean about you know like it it's got a bit of full spectrumness to it but when you were answering the last question you mentioned that you know it can be a little bit finicky to grow um can you can you tell me a little bit about that I mean I know that a lot of people are apprehensive about growing some of the longer flowering sativa stuff because if you know for example one of the things I commonly hear is you know if you give it a a burst of nutrients maybe a touch more than what you know it wants um you know it can push a whole bunch of new new fresh growth out um what what are some of the things that you think about when you're considering that it is a touch more more difficult to grow >> mastering the hazes is really difficult I think with any long flowering strain the approach you want to take is low and slow. I mean, you're running a marathon.
You're not sprinting. You need to conserve energy. You need to take things slow. And essentially, if you feed on like, let's say, a bell curve for your normal 9 to 10 week flowering plants, you just want to extend that out for the additional 13 to 14 15 weeks. Now, understanding how long the plant flowers beforehand is certainly helpful. When you're growing from seed, that becomes a lot more difficult because you don't know is this plant going to finish in 12 weeks, is it going to be 14 weeks or 15 weeks. So, you can't really plan ahead as well. But if you know how long the plant is going to flower for, then you can kind of adjust any sort of changes that you want to make to maximize the flowers. But low and slow, if you're growing inside, you know, you don't necessarily want to give them unlimited root space. Confining the roots definitely helps keep the stretch to a minimum. Obviously lowering the the lights um the flower the light cycle from 11 hours on to 13 off helps. And then I like blue spectrum bulbs. I mean I still flower under metal halloid bulbs just because I prefer the health of the plants and the way I can see the plants under a metal halli.
>> I'm right there with you. I I love metal halli. I I think, you know, some of my earliest grows where it was like metal halli using a sort of super soily type base where it's just water only. I I still think some of those expressions I I coaxed out were some of my favorite ones. And um it makes sense, you know, the the philosophy you describe of low and slow and just extending that normal feeding regime out and not not sort of nuking the plant with nootes at any one point. Um, I wanted to quickly ask cuz we actually had this question come up in the Patreon questions, you know, um, obviously when you were growing these seeds out initially, there was multiple females. Um, what were some of the other females like? And and was the seven like the clear standout to you during the grow or is more after when you were testing it? Were there any others that sort of caught your eye?
>> A little bit before, a little after, right? You know, you're growing these plants out there. It's not a line that is without issues. I mean, there's some fenos that have micro seeds in them and there's kind of a spectrum of the aromomas itself. So, you'll have a little more on the cedar side, a little less musky, still mirine, oceene, and piny dominant, but the way it expresses itself might be a little bit when you're smelling it. Um, so there is a little bit of a spectrum.
At the end of the day, it comes down to the smoke. and between myself and friends, we all kind of the committee came together and decided that that was really a standout plant that should be continued to be grown. So, it is nice to have second opinions. Although I already thought it was one of the better ones, it's always nice when you respect friends that have good quality uh good taste, quality, and uh can kind of help reaffirm that you're making the right selections.
>> Yeah, totally. Totally. And and clearly, you know, it's gone on to be tried by so many people. I remember, you know, when we had Yosami on the show, you know, he referenced that, you know, it made its way over to Europe and that they were just so thrilled that something like that had come out of, you know, the descendant of all that work and ET and all those guys in the backtory of it all are just all so super stoked to have this plant. Um, you know, I'm curious, you know, have you have you got to try much of the PIFF? because PIFF is back in full force. You know, even just the other day, people online would probably have seen that, you know, obviously people in the heady community pretty aware of Cuban black haze, but you know, with DOA recently posting about his whole thing about how he wants to work with it going forward, it it really feels like it's it's added a bit of extra fuel to the fire for the resurgence. Um, what's your thoughts on on the original Cuban Black Haze? Have you got to try very much of it? cuz I guess the common sentiment you hear is that the band-aid haze is is maybe an improvement on that. Um what's your thoughts on all of that?
>> Well, and that's kind of my approach as well since having the band-aid haze. I had that and experienced that before I ever had access to the Cuban black haze.
And even the Cuban black haze, I'm no expert on it, but from what I've heard that there's a couple different cuts floating around. So, you know, it goes back to the do you even know which one you really have? Is it the same cut that was used for the band-aid haze? Is it a different one? There's so many different things that have come out in S1's. Um, you know, and I've tried a lot of other people's stuff. Um, I'm uh I've grown up the PF S1 that was a quite a bit different than the Band-Aid Haze in terms of morphology and aroma. Um, I have grown a cut of Cuban black haze.
I'm pretty sure it was a different cut that was used. Um, it was a different cut than the one that was used for the band-aid haze, but still carries a very similar chirping profile. Just the high itself, both from my experience with that Cuban black haze cut and from what people have told me about perhaps this original Cuban black haze is it's pretty lethargic. and maybe oh maybe maybe more lethargic than a haze should be for someone if if you're going you know 14 to 16 weeks. Um it seems like it worked for for the East Coast in that setting that they had with the you know Cubans or whatever running running cannabis up from from Florida or whatever. But um yeah, I didn't have as much interest in the Cuban black haze after I got the band-aid to be honest. I mean, within the recent years, I did have, like I said, that cut of Cuban black haze and kind of worked it with my haze male to try to see if I couldn't come up with something interesting. But once you have a line that really works and you connect with, it's why I've gravitated towards just inbreeding and and working with the band-aid haze because I really enjoy it so much. It's um you know there's there is a spectrum of plants. Some are better than others, but it's far superior than a lot of the other hazes I've tried.
>> Yeah. I mean, it certainly makes sense, right? Like if you've got something that is considered to maybe supersede some of the older stuff then yeah that's of course that's and then there's obviously that personal connection and you know I wanted to ask you on that note about the personal connection like what's it like to have seen such a widespread adoption and and such positive you know sort of reviews and acceptance of this thing that you found you know because obviously uh it goes to say that whenever anyone is popping any seeds. No one's really thinking like, "Oh my god, you know, this seed can go on to just be this incredible plant that's so, you know, like it's got to in a certain sense it has to be like a bit of a surprise." Um, but yeah, what's it been like for you to see like, you know, uh, like right now I'm I'm looking at the, you know, seedfinder for the Band-Aid Haze and and just looking at all the the really bigname breeders who have been working with it, you know, like Karma, Bod, White Buffalo, yourself. Um just just to name like just the very first ones I'm looking at like some really heavy hitters in there, you know. How does that feel for your work to be you know not only vouched but thought to be good enough to breed with by other people?
>> I mean it's pretty humbling to be able to make a selection that you connect with not knowing whether other people will like it or not. Um, so to so to be able to make a selection that you find is really special, have other people check it out and then also connect with it and find it special is super wonderful. I mean, it's a unique experience that not everyone really gets to partake in. And it's nice that it really came naturally and it's just true lovers of the plant over all of these years slowly trading hands and getting to to one another. you know, not necessarily based on hype, but based on desire to have some of the best hay smoke that they could find. So, I I love the fact that I was a part of this um plant's journey and it's brought a lot of attention to me in a positive way and made a big impact on my life. So, you know, I'm grateful for Bodie for allowing me the opportunity to grow the plant, find the plant, share it with people, and then continue on my own path and try to create this strain the way I hope to to present it um going forward for people.
>> Yeah. No, totally, totally. What a sentiment of gratitude is what I'm hearing there, which is really beautiful stuff. And I want to ask you something about the breeding with it. But before we do that, let's quickly jump back to sort of the timeline. So, you know, you got these seeds, you found this killer plant. Was that sort of around the time you were thinking like, hey, I might be able to like actually, you know, do a bit of like turn this into a bit of an income, maybe like a career pathway, or at that point, had that thought not sort of dawned on you? Were you sort of thinking about the idea of your own seeds at that time? Or what was that transition like from just someone who was growing and found something cool to thinking, maybe I could actually, you know, do something in the scene with this?
You know, it probably wasn't until a couple years later that Stray Fox and I uh visited Bod at his place that I didn't really get the inspiration to start my own seed company after talking with those guys. You know, they were a big inspiration to me and encouraged me to forge my own path. So, at the time when I found the Band-Aid Haze, it was purely for the love of the plant. I mean, it was just I love finding unique, cool plants, sharing them with friends, and that's what I did. Like you mentioned, ET was a part of the the Band-Aid haze story. So, after I found the seven cut, I passed the Band-Aid 7 to ET as well as Bod and a few other friends. And ET took that original mail since he's a part of the story for the original mail. he was the one to res receive those A5 Thai seeds. He couldn't uh he did not have much success getting those to germinate and pass those to Bod. So when Bod popped the rest of those seeds, my understanding is it's just the one male that really popped out. So he made those crosses and then gave that male back to ET. So he was in possession of the original male and the Band-Aid 7 clone. He made a bunch of different hybrids, including the Band-Aid 7 to that original male, and that's when I selected my my BX male to begin some of my end crossing work.
>> Ooh, that's that's cool little backstory. What What did you find in those seeds? Did it did it really amplify some of the haze traits or Yeah.
What'd you get out of that?
>> Yeah, you know, so uh that's created a lot of the Band-Aid haze ex lines. The only one that does not contain that original backcross male that I selected would be the Band-Aid haze 1.0, which was an F2 male selection to the original Band-Aid 71 or Band-Aid 7 clone. Um, but the EX male is was super super cool. So, it's a the A5 haste tie BX mail is what I ended up calling it. And when I selected that male, I didn't have a lot of reference to go off of since I hadn't seen the original mail. Most of the plants that I grew from that seed line were gigantic haze plants.
Knowing that band-aid haze already finished super late, 15 weeks, 14, 15 weeks. I wasn't really looking for a super huge late flowering male. So I chose a real freak quick flowering more stocky mail. So kind of went the polar opposite direction in that to kind of rain things in. So most of the stuff that you'll see within the EX line finishes quicker than the mom. I've almost never seen any of the band-aid haze hybrids from the incross lines finish longer than 14 or 15 weeks. So it was able to rain those back in. And then also doubles doubles on the turppines.
So the mirine oamine pining those things are really reinforced on some of those in cross lines. So I mean you can look at some of the testing that was done at PIFON which is pretty cool. Last year a lot of the different various Band-Aid haze cuts were entered the Band-Aid 7 a couple of the different EX- 3.0's nose and they all share the exact same turppins in different levels. Some of them have kind of subtleties to them, but it really does kind of reinforce the fact that that male was really just reinforcing and bringing those traits right back into the Bay gene pool.
>> It's really cool to hear. I guess there you go. If someone's looking for a sort of something that's a bit more indoor friendly or just even shorter flowering cycle, it sounds like maybe the ex lines might be the incross lines might be some of the preferred ones. And I know you've done a number of different sort of versions of, you know, line work with the band-aid haze. And it was one of the questions we got from one of the patreons was, you know, how do they sort of differ? And you've you've mentioned what you've just said there. And you also mentioned a bit earlier on that um some of the newer lines you've done with it like maybe the I'm assuming that would be like the F4 and the F3 hybrids.
You said there maybe a bit even more shorter flowering. Is that right? Or did I maybe misunderstand that?
>> Yeah, you know, back crossing into that original A5 haze tie brought a lot of interesting traits. It did solidify a lot of the aspects that I enjoyed about the Band-Aid Haze, but then you also have more soapy Thai and still it is a longer flowering string. I mean, you you still get 85 to 95 or 100 day flowering plants.
the F3s. Although I wasn't selectively breeding to to shorten the flowering time, when I had grown out the F3s in the past, I realized that this is a much more structured, quicker flowering line, but still retain a lot of the beautiful qualities from the original Band-Aid Haze clone. So when I was back from Mexico, kind of restarting things back up again, thinking about new approaches, something that would appeal to more people and be a new direction for me. It's why I decided to revisit the F3s, make large selections, and try to bring something different to the Band-Aid haze gene pool, which is shortening the flowering time, trying to give it more structure while still retaining a lot of the beautiful things I loved about the clone.
>> Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so it sounds like each of them has their own little unique sort of twist. Um, I'm going to put you on the spot. If you had to just recommend sort of without knowing anything about the individual, if you have to recommend one of the Band-Aid haze lines you've worked, what would be one that you think is a pretty good allrounder and you'd be happy to recommend to someone without knowing too much about their preferences?
>> Say the 3.0 seems to be the line that most people have had success finding keeper plants in. Now, I think it is luck of the luck of the draw and what you're most attracted to. Um, you can find really cool plants in in most of the Band-Aid haze lines depending on what pops out, but the 3.0 has consistently performed well for people.
It's probably also because I've released more of the the 3.0 line than any of the other lines. So, just by, you know, default, people have experienced that line more. So, probably have been able to find more interesting plants from it, but it is very refined compared to the Band-Aid 7. It does flower quicker. I mean, you can find even plants that finish 75 or 80 days, although they're uncommon. So, yeah, the the the 3.0 is essentially a two times back cross of the the Band-Aid 7. Um but also with inrossing you have issues with that where you'll find mutated plants and things that you need to callull out earlier on.
>> Ah okay. Sure. You what do the mutants look like? You know are you getting some I doubt I was going to use some tongue and cheek there but I doubt you're getting some OG KB looking stuff in there. What do the mutants look like?
>> No.
>> No. Usually you know you'll get really almost weird tie expressions. It'll be really open flower structure with a lot of resin. Sometimes you'll have, you know, uh, leaves with kind of mutated fingers on them, like one or two will be mutated or have variegation on it or just not grow particularly well. So, you know, however the traits are recombining in that aspect, not always desirable.
Um, so yeah, it's something I learned. I haven't really been seeing that when I had grown out the F3s or growing out these new F4s. I haven't seen really any of that. And typically, you'll see that pretty early on. I mean, you germinate the seeds and within a couple weeks, you're like, well, these plants are mutants or kind of have a a [ __ ] growth. So, I typically toss those types of plants just to kind of keep things moving. Although they do have some sort of value. I mean, they are kind of fun.
Um, but I typically just kind of keep things moving.
>> Sure. No. Hey, that that's good to hear that, you know, they might they might not be worth even growing out even though there's a bit of novelty there.
You know, I think you're right, especially in terms of breeding forward, you sort of going to want that healthy population. Look, let's jump back to the timeline. You know, you said that you you had a quite a memorable experience where you met up with Stray Fox and Bod.
Um, you know, what what was that like?
Will you just, you know, cuz I I guess the reason I'm curious is, you know, I've I've been fortunate enough to have spent a few nights at Bod's house over the years, and I feel like every one of them is a similar experience where you end up, you know, he just sort of feeds you all this incredibly exotic cannabis that just blows your mind in terms of all the possibilities and and for me, they've always been very memorable sort of experiences. But I'd be keen to hear a bit about yours. You know, what were some of the standouts?
>> Yeah. No, I mean, you're exactly right.
It's quite an experience and Bod is just a really special guy and the way he cultivates and all the samples and just to be able to, you know, smell your way uh all across all the various things that he has to offer is incredible. So, you know, going back to that time, Stray Fox and I connected kind of over Bodie.
Uh, at the time, my folks had just purchased a place in Vegas right around 2012, 2013, and that's when Stray Fox was living in Vegas. I um ended up helping out his brother at the time and then Stray Fox and I ended up connecting when I came to Vegas. We really hit it off, you know, we came together, hit it off. You know, Stray had been working with Booty stuff for a couple years um already at that point. But I loved his ethos, his attitude. So we originally connected in Vegas and when he moved up to Washington for a few years, we just further collaborated, connected, hung out and at that point, you know, we both had a lot of admiration for Bod and what he did. So when the Emerald Cup came up in 2015, we kind of made the pilgrimage, drove down there together, went and visited him before uh the Emerald Cup and then checked out the Emerald Cup for the first time. And that was in 2015. So, we that was the first time hanging out with Bodie at his place. Like you said, it's just the amount of samples and things you get to check out is very inspiring. It it gave me a lot of ideas to take back to my own growth style and kind of emulate. And uh yeah, that was uh so that would have been the first time that I that we met up with Bodie was in 2015.
>> That's so cool. And and I know people are are very curious to hear cuz Bod mentioned it in his episodes. Um you know you you ultimately ended up getting to go on some land race trips, you him and Stray, the three amigos. You know tell me a bit about that.
>> Yeah, I mean anyone who's been on Breed Bay for any amount of time especially when it was super busy and popular knew that Bod had traveled all over the place. And that was super inspirational for anyone who's seeking unique cannabis. So when we met up with him in 2015, of course, we planted the seed that, hey, here's a couple guys that would love to go on a trip with you if you ever wanted company. And then in 2016 when we went down again for the Emerald Cup, hung out with them again, planted the seed, hey, if you have any desire to go on collection trips, you know, here's two guys that would love to go with you. And it was in 2017 that March is when we were invited to go with Bod to Guatemala, part of his uh Nurea Sea Trust. So he kind of gave us little scholarships, kind of helped us along the way and uh took us down to Guatemala for a super beautiful experience connecting with people down there and trying to scout and find some really great bud.
>> Yeah. I mean, what was that like? Did you I mean I have to imagine that there was some gold and and some less less than gold that you experienced along the journey. What what was the trip like?
>> You know I think doing travel to foreign countries is already an incredible experience.
Traveling with friends to a foreign country is even more of an incredible experience. And then doing it with someone who you really admire who's kind of a mentor is just kind of the cherry on top. So, you know, all around it was a really incredible experience.
Guatemala itself, we had a connection, Henry, who was able to kind of facilitate um acquiring seeds for us and cannabis. So, in on that trip, it was kind of more enjoying ourselves and connecting with people and less about scouting because it was kind of given to us by a local who was a grower and connected with everyone in the scene.
Um, but yeah, being able to experience another culture, being able to try to partake in their cannabis and then the sense that you're looking for something that no one else has just makes things really special. So whether it was, you know, going to Lake Octlon or going to the ruins, I mean, I remember climbing up these old ruins, being at the very top of them, smoking a joint with Bodie.
You have all these howler monkeys screaming at you. It's just a super super memorable experience. Not to mention, you know, one of us getting sick in Guatemala and all the craziness that goes along with traveling and getting ill and it's just it's a really memorable experience for sure.
>> Wow. Yeah. Hey, I mean I I think he had mentioned, you know, being at the top of the ruins, but I didn't never never thought about the howler monkey screaming at you that would affect it.
And then even more so getting sick, you know. Gosh. Yeah. I can imagine that's that's an interesting twist on it all.
Feeling feeling like uh you got some sort of, you know, exotic bug in your system that's going to be maybe a bit hard to shake off, but that's that's really cool. Have you ever ended up um popping anything you you picked up along that journey?
>> So, one of the buds that Henry gave us was uh what he called his haze. So, Henry's haze. I've grown that out and I've grown out what what I called the granola atlon. Essentially, he gave us a gigantic bag of seeds from growers all around the lake. And when I smuggled them back in, I mixed them in with a bunch of granola. So, that's why I called the granola adon. Um, and I have grown a little of those. They're pretty wild. They're I I haven't tamed or found one um that I continued on, but it's the gene pool that I need to dig back into before it gets too old. I mean, even at the time, the seeds just because of the nature of how they dry and store the seeds didn't have the greatest germination. Um so, we'll see. It's something I'll need to to reconnect with for sure. the Hey, but it's still cool to have that personal connection and that's that's really special to uh to have the the granola haze. I I like that. I love how these things work their way into the uh you know, the overall sort of legacy of it by Henry's Haze and Granola. And it's um it's some cool references, you know, and and I guess um while we're talking about haze, you know, something I wanted to quickly ask you was I see that you've posted a fair bit about a number of different hazes, you know, on your Instagram. I saw there was like a photo of some Oh haze a while ago and and you'd also posted a photo about having um you know made a hybrid between Green Haze and Harlem Dreams creating the Emerald Haze.
That's actually that was some of Pitifos's work.
>> Ah, there you go. Because I was curious because I was like, yeah, I know that obviously the Harlem Dreams comes out of his camp or, you know, is heavily associated with it. What What was your thoughts on the Green Haze and some of these other haze hybrids you've tried that, you know, a bit different to the Band-Aid?
>> So, I'm not totally familiar with some of the I mean, those East Coast guys have a universe on their own, which is totally amazing. that selection uh the emerald haze which is kind of an ironic name for it since it almost always turns purple. It is the green haze Harlem Dreams. It was Piff Coast work and it was selected by uh a breeder grower nutrino nutrino genetics. So he's someone that I've recently connected with since coming back from Mexico. He's definitely uh a haze head from the east coast that has been searching out high quality piff type plants. So he ran through a bunch of piff coast gear. That was his select cut from all the different lines that he ran through. Um and I've only really experienced it two or three times now. And you know I think I I overfed it because I thought it was a longer flowering plant. So, I didn't really time things correctly. Uh, the first time I thought it was more of like a 13-week plant. It turned out it was more like a 75day style plant. So, you know, the way you treat them is going to be pretty different. Um, so just now have I really harvested that plant that I posted a photo of. That plant just finished drying. So, I'm going to really be able to give it my my full opinion. The aroma is incredible. I mean, it does have a super ultra rich messene dominant, what's most notably known for for pith.
Um, very similar to the church cut that's found in some of the band-aid haze 3.0. I would say maybe even a little on the richer side.
And I'm not sure about the smoke because like I said, I took it way too long last time and it turned into couch locks narcotic bud. I ended up taking, you know, naps after smoking a joint of it, which is not really what you would expect from a haze.
>> That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, it goes to show, right? You can you the grow style influences the overall effect and you can get that big that big difference. And I I I I wonder how does that compare to, you know, cuz I'd seen that photo of the O'Hays you'd grown. I think it was um it might have even been Matt's Kyona. Um, how did that fair?
>> So, same thing came from my buddy Nutrino. Very cool. Again, he's a huge haze head and he grew out Todd's original haze plants and he found some cool stuff in that. So, that one is more on the piff style. There are also tarpenoline style plants in that O'Haze line from what he has relayed. Um, and it's difficult to grow. Is a super long flowering plant. Um, I've smoked the flowers from it. I tried flowering it one time, goofed it up. Now we're going for a second time. So, it's certainly on the more challenging side of things to grow since instead of a pith, you know, those are those hybrid plants, the NL5 haze, it really is a equatorial style mirine dominant plant. So, it's going to be difficult to grow. It's gonna take over 15 weeks to flower. So, definitely not for everybody, especially when you have kind of other haze plants in your arsenal. It might not be the first thing you go to, but it is a a really cool unique style plant. And the morphology is unlike most other haze plants that I have.
And there you have it, guys. Massive shout out to Doc D swinging by, sharing some love, sharing some knowledge.
I hope you guys enjoyed it just as much as I did.
As usual, we want to give a massive shout out to our incredible sponsors who have helped made this episode happen.
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As usual, big love from me. heavy days coming at you from the upside down library.
I appreciate you getting to the end with me.
And with that, I'll see you on the next one.
I'll see you
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