Goldenrod Geek-out! What YOU Need to Know About this Ecological Powerhouse!

[00:00:00]They're keystone herbaceous plants.

[00:00:02]Um and we always talk about oaks being keystone plants and and that's certainly true, but not everyone can plant an oak.

[00:00:08]Maybe not everyone has the space for it, but I think most home gardens could squeeze in a goldenrod somewhere.

[00:00:14]>> In today's episode of the Backyard Ecology podcast, we're talking with Sam Hodly.

[00:00:19]Sam is the manager of horticultural research at the Mt. Cuba Center, where he evaluates native plant species, old and new cultivars, and hybrids in the trial garden. Hi, Sam. Welcome back to the podcast.

[00:00:30]>> Shannon, thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:31]>> Oh, I'm so excited to have you back again because some of our listeners may remember you from some of our previous episodes, where we've talked about Carex's, which are the sedges, and Vernonia's, which are the ironweeds.

[00:00:45]And today it's going to be so much fun because we're going to talk about another genus of native plants that's a major natural ecosystem powerhouse and one of my many favorites. I've got a >> Yeah.

[00:01:00]>> One of my many favorite genera.

[00:01:02]And that's the Solidago or the goldenrods.

[00:01:05]>> Yeah, no, that was was an incredibly fun trial.

[00:01:09]Um and I think it's a really inspiring group that hopefully we can get people excited about to plant more goldenrods in their home landscape. It is hard to imagine, well, there's a handful out there that get close to goldenrod and maybe one or two that surpass them, but in terms of ecological value that a group of plants can provide uh to your home landscape, goldenrods are unbelievable.

[00:01:32]Um we certainly saw tons of insect activity in the trial garden, whether it was insects visiting the flowers, caterpillars eating the foliage, and there was all kinds of bird activity as well. Um they're just incredible group of plants.

[00:01:44]>> Yes, and that's one of the exciting things about goldenrods is that it's not just the pollinators. It's not just the insects. It is everything uses goldenrods pretty much.

[00:01:57]>> Mhm.

[00:01:57]>> Yeah, no, like they're keystone herbaceous plants.

[00:02:01]And we always talk about oaks being keystone plants and that's certainly true, but not everyone can plant an oak.

[00:02:07]Maybe not everyone has the space for it, but I think most home gardens could squeeze in a goldenrod somewhere.

[00:02:13]There's tons different kinds, various sizes, habits, forms, bloom periods.

[00:02:19]There are something we said all the time in the trials, there is a goldenrod for any home garden, any condition.

[00:02:25]They are an incredibly diverse and incredible group of plants.

[00:02:29]>> Yes, exactly. And it's that diversity which is so cool.

[00:02:34]And I know when I was in um college and taking all my wildlife biology courses and botany courses and field botany courses, a lot of times my instructors, and I had some amazing field botanists >> Mhm.

[00:02:48]>> and systematic botanists for instructors, but they're like, okay, goldenrods are really hard to identify, especially your field goldenrods that everybody's so familiar with that turn everything yellow >> Right.

[00:03:00]>> in the fall, all those big fields.

[00:03:02]They're like really hard to identify, so you have to take them into the lab with the flower, put it underneath a dissecting microscope, and count the little pieces of them.

[00:03:13]>> Mhm.

[00:03:14]>> And those aren't really the ones that we're talking about so much cuz those field goldenrods, they're amazing in the field.

[00:03:22]>> Absolutely.

[00:03:23]>> But they don't really do well in the home gardens.

[00:03:26]>> Yes, I think there's definitely, I mean, right plant, right place.

[00:03:30]Some of those field goldenrods, I mean, ecological value off the charts. They're wonderful in a naturalistic landscape.

[00:03:36]In fact, if you are looking to kind of have a plant that will quickly colonize a natural area in the back 40 of your garden, maybe it'll even push back against invasive plants. There's some goldenrod species that are incredible candidates for that setting.

[00:03:52]But for your small home landscape or maybe real estate is at a premium, you may not want to unleash Solidago altissima and canadensis um, in your small home garden. But again, um, there is a place for those plants.

[00:04:04]They're wonderful. Every goldenrod is incredible. Um, but there's definitely quite a large number of species that are really well um, adapted to a small home garden. They're more well-behaved, if you will. We actually found that of we evaluated 70 different goldenrods, and we found that only about six or seven of them were are what we would classify as aggressive or unruly in a small home landscape, which really kind of I think was unexpected from by a lot of us. I think there is this perception that goldenrods are aggressive and weedy and um, maybe aren't the best for a small home garden, but there's uh, there's plenty of candidates um, that are really well-suited for those kinds of gardens.

[00:04:46]>> Right. And we'll talk more about those different species specifically in a little bit.

[00:04:53]But, one of the things too that I found was really interesting about the goldenrod um, booklet that you guys have. And you can get it online, too.

[00:05:03]>> Yep.

[00:05:03]>> But, one of the things I loved about it, besides the species descriptions, was the wonderful job that you did here of showing all the different parts of the goldenrod. Because if anybody's ever tried to identify the different goldenrods, especially if you're not using one of the picture apps, which >> Right.

[00:05:24]>> don't always do the best job. I mean, there's some that do pretty good job, but a lot of them goldenrods can look very similar.

[00:05:30]There's a reason why my professor said, "Take it in the lab and look underneath those things."

[00:05:35]>> That's right.

[00:05:35]>> And if you look at any of those keys or any of those really hardcore goldenrod field guides and if there's a whole lot of jargon, and there's pieces and parts to them.

[00:05:47]And those pieces and parts to those flowers don't look the same at all stages of the flower and the seed head.

[00:05:53]And so, that picture I think did an amazing job of showing what what you're supposed to be looking at at different phases of the picture. So, I mean, that was just one of those odd things that I was not expecting. I WAS LIKE, "OH, THIS IS GREAT."

[00:06:07]>> YEAH.

[00:06:08]NO, it's We have a lot of fun putting those together and um sometimes we do want to use those those jargony words and to take the deeper dives. We We're not necessarily like a botany textbook.

[00:06:19]Like, we're not going to We're not necessarily setting out to help you key out a plant. We're more kind of laying the groundwork. So, if you did want to take that next step, if you wanted to take the deep dive into goldenrods, and we all know that there is a deep dive that can be taken, um that you have the tools um and you understand what tools are necessary to to take that dive. Um So, we kind of This is more of like a setting the stage part of the report, so we can introduce some of these terms, some of these anatomical features that might come up again and again in later parts of the report, um and people can kind of familiarize themsel- familiarize themselves with some of those those pieces of the flowers, so we can refer to those, um whether that's later in the report or on the online content, or just kind of set you up for success if you're going into one of those more intensive keys.

[00:07:05]>> Yeah, I really appreciated that and loved that from somebody who has tried to do those deep dives, and honestly, unless you use those terms all the time, >> Right.

[00:07:19]>> it's like every other word I'm having to flip back to the dictionary, and that just like blows your brain, and there's no fun doing that.

[00:07:25]>> Yeah. Now, we have a lot of fun making those, and um just a quick teaser, uh this isn't goldenrod-related, but we are writing a milkweed report, which will be out in January, and we're working on a very similar page, or maybe multiple pages, looking at all the anatomical features of milkweed flowers, which are fascinating. So, stay tuned for that.

[00:07:44]>> Oh, that's going to be so much fun.

[00:07:46]>> Yeah, it's great.

[00:07:47]>> So, let's start talking about some of the ways that goldenrods fit into the ecosystem.

[00:07:55]>> Mhm.

[00:07:55]>> Let's just kind [clears throat] of start off by setting the stage with the ecological importance of the Solidagos that we've kind of alluded to and talked about.

[00:08:02]And it's really great because like I said, it's not just one little group. It's everything that's using it. That's using them.

[00:08:11]Things use goldenrod not just when it's in flower.

[00:08:14]>> Right.

[00:08:14]>> But throughout the growing season and then even throughout the winter, too, potentially.

[00:08:19]>> Yeah, no, absolutely. We saw wildlife activity from spring through winter in the goldenrod trial and it was one of I mean, in addition to all the insects we observed visiting the flowers, eating the foliage, it was one of the best places to see warblers during the fall um cuz they were visiting those plants, they were picking off the insects that the goldenrods were attracting.

[00:08:39]And one of the other things that was really amazing about that trial um is, you know, in addition to the diversity of these plant sizes and the rhizomatous habit versus clumping habits and foliage texture and all of that, there's also a lot of diversity in when these plants produce flowers. We actually had our first goldenrods blooming in mid-May, which is unusual.

[00:08:58]It's definitely an exception to the rule, but Solidago cutleri grows in alpine habitats in northern New England and upstate New York. Um they bloomed very, very early for us and there were insects visiting those flowers during May and early June. And then we kind of got into the meat of the goldenrod season. June, July, there's some early species, but August, September is really kind of peak bloom for us.

[00:09:20]We even had flowers in October and November in the trial garden. These various species, if you choose them strategically, you can have goldenrod flowers, maybe May is the exception, but from June through November in your home garden. And during that time, you are going to have insects just off the charts. We We saw just about everything you can imagine visiting those flowers.

[00:09:42]I would say the minority of insects that we observed would be like the large charismatic butterflies. We saw bees, bugs, beetles, just everything. It was really really an incredible array of insects that were visiting those flowers, gathering nectar, gathering pollen. We also saw insect predators on those flowers as well, picking off those insects that were visiting those flowers, whether it was ambush bugs or Carolina mantises.

[00:10:09]Just the diversity was amazing. And just the number in as well of insects that we were observing was some of the highest we've ever observed in the trial garden. Often we present our data in the average number of insects we're observing per minute, which is generally our frequency or excuse me, the duration of time that we're observing these plants on a daily basis. And the average was above anything else we had seen to date. Um We had plants that were attracting upwards of five insects per minute on average. That incorporates cold mornings, incorporates hot afternoons.

[00:10:44]And we had one goldenrod in particular that attracted, I think it was upwards of 12 insects on average per minute. Um which is on a single inflorescence that we were observing that activity. So just incredible the amount of value that these plants are producing, the amount of insects these these plants are bringing into potentially your home landscape. And those insects equate to food for other wildlife, including those warblers. And it doesn't stop there. As you mentioned, those flowers produce seed and we would see juncos and sparrows all winter long feeding on that seed. Mammals as well. I'm sure we would see rodents and maybe some rodents we weren't thrilled to have in the garden, but that rodent is potentially food for hawks, owls.

[00:11:28]So this is really a keystone plant that is the building blocks of this entire food chain that you can start in your home landscape. And in addition to insects and birds, we saw plenty of caterpillar species feeding on the goldenrod foliage, and these are really truly keystone plants. Um and it's hard to imagine many other plants that can provide this amount of ecological value to your home landscape. And there's so many of them, and I would challenge anyone to include at least one goldenrod in your home landscape, but maybe three, four, five, half dozen.

[00:12:00]But yeah, they're great plants.

[00:12:01]>> Right. And it goes the timing's important, too.

[00:12:05]>> Right.

[00:12:06]>> With them, because if we're just looking at the nectar resources and the pollen resources, so the flowers, I mean, they bloom in the fall when you've got a lot of our migrating fall insects, which aren't just monarchs. So, we always think about the monarchs, but there are other migrating um insects as well. So, a lot of those are using it.

[00:12:27]Um or it might be the last resources available. Right? Or some of the last resources available going into winter for the late season bees and next year's um queen bumblebees.

[00:12:39]>> Exactly. We actually did track bumblebee activity in the trial garden, and it became um at least our observations started to really peak in September and October, and we even saw them into November, right up until the bitter end, until those last flowers are being produced, we saw bumblebees coming to these goldenrod flowers. And some of the most visited goldenrods in the entire trial were those that were really late blooming, those October and November bloomers. And I think maybe if all things were created equal, if those plants produce flowers at the same time as most of the other goldenrods, that kind of peak season of late August and September, we may have seen similar numbers on everything, but these flowers are blooming at a time when there's so few other floral resources, they really are this important last season or really late season, some of the last floral resources that are available. Um and bumblebees were certainly one of the most visited or most counted insects during that time of year.

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[00:14:14]>> We've got a lot of old fields on our property.

[00:14:16]>> Sure.

[00:14:16]>> About half of our property is old fields. And so, goldenrod galore.

[00:14:21]>> Mhm.

[00:14:22]>> And it gets up into the yard and stuff and cuz it's the field goldenrods that are the aggressive rhizomatous ones, the ones that go by runners.

[00:14:31]>> Mhm.

[00:14:31]>> And um we don't mow the grass. We're We're off.

[00:14:35]You don't have to Nobody sees it but us.

[00:14:37]So, we don't mow the grass all the time.

[00:14:39]And there's been times when we've let the goldenrod grow in in spots and stuff or maybe we'll let it grow and then uh that's getting a little weedy, so we'll mow it down in that area of the yard.

[00:14:49]And then let it grow up later.

[00:14:53]And by October, November, like you were saying, that which was mowed is now blooming after everything else that's out in the fields has died off.

[00:15:03]And yeah, always have bees galore on it when we do that.

[00:15:09]>> Yep. I think that's I mean, it's a similar thing you can even do in your home landscape. When people talk about the Chelsea chop all the time as a great way to kind of reduce the size and um the branching of some of these plants and make them a little more shrubby. But oftentimes during when you do the Chelsea chop, you are also delaying the bloom period, um which is I think sometimes can be used as a strategy to prolong your bloom period of your garden overall. And, sometimes what I recommend doing is instead of Chelsea chopping all of your goldenrod, maybe Chelsea chop a third of it. So, a third of those plants will bloom for a longer and later period of time, and you will kind of extend the duration of those floral resources in your garden. So, similar similar outcome to that mowing just on a smaller scale.

[00:15:51]>> And, we don't want to Chelsea chop everything or mow everything.

[00:15:56]>> Right.

[00:15:57]>> Because we do have pollen specialist bees for goldenrods, just like we do with a lot of other different plants and genera.

[00:16:04]But, yeah, those pollen specialist bees, they rely on those flowers being available at a certain time. So, if we're delaying them, it we may be delaying it too late for those specialists to use it. Other things will still use it, but not the things that need it and can't eat at anything else, um for the larva.

[00:16:26]So, yeah, doing that maybe a third like you suggested of the Chelsea chop, or like I said with ours, it's just mowing what comes into the yard and then letting it bloom um later, versus doing the whole fields.

[00:16:40]>> Yeah, now we we looked a little bit at specialist activity with the ironweeds, with Melissodes denticulatus, which you know, we talked about before. And, goldenrods, there's there's many specialists. We didn't get into that level of detail in this trial, but again, goldenrods are known to host some of the most pollen specialists of any genera in the eastern temperate forest region, which is also incredible. Um and again, many of those insects are reliant on that resource at a very specific time. So, if you can if you're really interested in supporting those specialists, I think finding that local those local genetics, growing those locally native species that are blooming in sync with those locally native insects. That's really the best way you can support those specialists in your home garden as well.

[00:17:23]>> And then, I mean, like you were saying, so many other things, too. You've got beetles of all kinds on there, and wasps, and uh um the like you said, the praying mantises.

[00:17:34]I mean, there's just so many cool things >> Mhm.

[00:17:37]>> that are on the golden rods. Oh, and the golden rod crab spiders. Those are some of my favorite spiders.

[00:17:43]>> Yep. Yeah, they blend right in. And um they're incredible. And we even saw uh caterpillars feeding on the flowers themselves that would blend perfectly in. They would turn to that beautiful golden yellow.

[00:17:54]Um it's just Again, the closer you looked, the more you'd see just these tiny little beetles as well that would be inside of the flowers themselves, just inside the flower tubes of these teeny, tiny little disc flowers.

[00:18:06]Um just amazing.

[00:18:08]>> And I guess we should, since you're mentioning disc flowers and we talked about all the different parts, mention that when we talk about golden rods, I mean, it's easy to think of golden rod flowers as that big flower head.

[00:18:19]>> Sure.

[00:18:20]>> But that's actually an inflorescence made up of lots of different flowers.

[00:18:24]>> Right. Yeah, many little heads are capitula. Um inside that capitula sensor, that big inflorescence, um and if you look at one of those little tiny heads, it looks like the tiniest little sunflower. It's complete with ray florets, um which look like little petals, your disc florets. Again, if you just miniaturize a little sunflower, that's exactly what it would look like. Um there are one or two, or one golden rod in particular, that doesn't have those ray florets, but the vast majority of them do.

[00:18:53]Um Unlike golden or excuse me, iron weeds, which just have the disc florets, they don't have the petals at all.

[00:18:59]Um but yeah, if you with a hand lens, um you can just kind of unlock this miniature world of beauty that golden rods have. And of course, they're, you know, beautiful big flowers, kind of in your face, these yellow inflorescences, but I would encourage you to take a, you know, a really detailed, zoomed-in look at those flowers. They really are stunning.

[00:19:16]>> Yes.

[00:19:17]Goldenrods can definitely become addicting. The more you look at them >> and the more you see because it's just it's like all the different insects that are on there. And then the more you look down, it's smaller flowers and all the insects are inside of those that you didn't notice. And oh yeah, it's just absolute They're addicting. You can keep going down further and further and further.

[00:19:41]>> I know. I feel like they're they're like carrots that way. It's just such a big diverse world and you can you can take that deep dive. And I feel like there's always more to learn, which is it's really fun working with these these larger genera because it just seems like what you can learn is truly inexhaustible. There's something new you'll see every single day. There's a new species you'll learn about that wasn't in the trial. And I should mention that the trial was not an exhaustive look at the genus. There was many species we weren't able to incorporate in the trials. But I think of the 70 plants we had in the evaluation, it was a pretty good look at some of the diversity in the eastern temperate forest region, but there's so much more out there.

[00:20:18]>> Oh yes.

[00:20:18]>> [snorts] >> And then I mean, again, we've gotten into talking about the flowers because that's the big showy part.

[00:20:26]>> Right.

[00:20:27]>> But then when we think about what happens afterwards, after those flowers bloom, after the most of the seeds have been eaten and it's fall and it's winter, they still keep providing a lot of shelter and food.

[00:20:42]>> Mhm.

[00:20:43]>> Because there's all kinds of insects inside of or on the stem. You know, on the stem or in the stem a lot of times.

[00:20:53]And so that's shelter winter shelter overwintering shelter for them.

[00:20:58]>> Mhm.

[00:20:58]>> But then the birds come in.

[00:21:00]>> That's right. Yes.

[00:21:02]We We were always hopeful that we would see some galls, Um, of those insects that are nesting inside of those stems over the winter in the trial garden, we never actually saw any develop, at least the stem galls.

[00:21:15]Um, but we do have them in our natural lands. We have some really wonderful stands of Solidago altissima and Solidago gigantea where you do see those really beautiful spherical galls that are produced on the stems of those species.

[00:21:28]Um, and, you know, in addition to it just being kind of an interesting thing to see in winter, a nice and unusual texture, you know, that little that little grub is inside of that gall. And what's really cool is that that is providing food, especially for woodpeckers during the winter months. And they'll go they'll go to that gall, they know there's protein inside during the coldest months of the year, and they'll pick those grubs right out of there. Um, it's yeah, those goldenrods just seem to continue to give uh to wildlife throughout the season. And a fun fact, something I didn't know is that um, those grubs are even used by ice fisher fisher people up or fishermen up north um, during the winter months when, you know, it's not easy to dig um, for worms or or anything like that in the ground when it's frozen. But those grubs are there above ground, they can open them up and use those uh those grubs as bait. Um, which is yeah, something kind of a fun fact we learned during the research for the report.

[00:22:25]>> Oh, yeah. And I've heard that um, those the goldenrod apple galls?

[00:22:31]>> Yes.

[00:22:31]>> There's a good reason why you didn't find them on the plants in the [clears throat] trial garden.

[00:22:36]Because they're pretty specific to which goldenrods that they'll use.

[00:22:39]>> Gotcha. Very cool.

[00:22:40]>> So, it's only in those tall field goldenrods >> Yeah.

[00:22:44]>> that you find them.

[00:22:46]>> So, that makes sense.

[00:22:47]>> That's why having that diversity is so important.

[00:22:50]>> Right.

[00:22:51]>> But then it's also, I mean, we love watching the um, birds go after them.

[00:22:55]>> Yes, absolutely.

[00:22:57]>> But there's also parasitoid wasps that will go after them. So, then you've got that whole other layer of insects going and a whole deep dive that you could go there.

[00:23:08]And then there's another one, um, the Oh, I'm forgetting what the name of it is, but there's another type of gall insect that makes a gall. And that's the one where you get all the leafy stuff at the top.

[00:23:20]>> Yes.

[00:23:20]>> So, you have the goldenrod apple gall, which is the looks like the little ball or or the apple on the stem.

[00:23:25]>> Right, exactly.

[00:23:26]>> And then you've got the leafy stuff up at the top, and that's a different insect entirely that's making those.

[00:23:32]>> It's the little bunch galls, right? The the little midge that does that.

[00:23:36]Yeah. They're fascinating. We We saw something similar to that in the trial garden. Although, I've seen [clears throat] more of that even at home on Solidago rugosa, those little bunch galls at the at the growth tips.

[00:23:48]They're so unusual. We did open up a few to try to get pictures, but the insect had already emerged, but again, just a whole another layer of what's going on in the landscape. And if you look closer, you'll see all these really specialized interactions, um, with goldenrods, even in a home landscape. I guess if you have the right plants, um, as well.

[00:24:07]>> Yeah, it's just so fascinating how many different ways you can go about and look at this.

[00:24:12]>> Yes.

[00:24:13]>> Um, yeah, you just keep going deeper and deeper. And then, of course, if you've left things standing, so that the birds can go up and down the stems and eat everything, that's also going to pretty providing shelter, too.

[00:24:25]Because the goldenrods don't fall down quite as quickly as some of the other plants do. So, that's a kind of like the gra- a lot of our native grasses don't fall down as quickly. So, that's places that the birds can get up and hide underneath and have shelter from some of the winter storms.

[00:24:43]>> Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, some of the the some of the taller, more rhizomatous species are some of that have the more I mean, some of the sturdiest stems, at least in the evaluation, and really um, the stems remain rigid, they remain upright, and if you cut them at the right time of year, they can also provide that habitat for cavity nesting bees. Um, especially some of plants like Solidago gigantea, altissima. So, a lot of field species you were mentioning, um, they can be really viable habitat for stem nesting bees and wasps.

[00:25:12]>> Again, not the species that we would recommend for a small garden on a tenth of an acre at next [laughter] to >> That's right.

[00:25:20]That's right. But, yeah, if you have the space, absolutely.

[00:25:25]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:27]And then, like you said, there are golden rods that really fit pretty much any type of location or hab- or um, conditions that you've got out there. I mean, there's really open sunny field golden rods. Again, not the ones that you want to plant most of the time [laughter] in your yard.

[00:25:48]>> Right.

[00:25:49]>> Um, I I I I keep wanting to repeat that because I don't know how many times I've had people go, "Oh, there's a field next door to me. I can go gather some seeds and just plant those in my in You don't want that.

[00:26:02]You're not going to want that. They look great in the fields, not in your yard.

[00:26:05]>> Yeah. Chances are they'll find their way over anyways, um, without your help.

[00:26:09]>> True.

[00:26:10]>> But, yes. No, it's there's definitely, again, right plant, right place.

[00:26:14]>> Yes.

[00:26:15]>> Um, but, uh, yeah.

[00:26:18]There's definitely there really truly are golden rods for every garden location, whether you have dry soils, wet soils, sun, shade. If you only have room for like a small container, or if you really have a bigger garden bed, or even a huge open field, there is a golden rod that will fit just about every home garden. Um, thanks to that those species diversity and habitats that these species can be found in the wild, um, it's just amazing.

[00:26:45]>> Yes. And that's one of the things that really surprised me, too, when I was first really learning about golden rods, is golden rods are supposed to be sunny.

[00:26:55]>> Right.

[00:26:56]>> But there are shady golden rods. And so everybody's always looking for that shady plant. There are species of golden rods that look gorgeous and do wonderful in shade.

[00:27:06]>> Yeah. Now it's a great way if you if you only have shade at home, if you're looking for ways to increase the pollinator value of your your woodland garden, there are several golden rod species that are incredible candidates.

[00:27:19]And many of them are fairly commercially accessible as well. I will say in the trials they got a little bit of an unfair shake in the evaluation because we planted we had to plant everything in full sun um just the way the trials were set up. But we did try to give them a little bit of extra attention because several of those species that didn't do well in the trials because it was too sunny for them um in that location, we know they're wonderful garden plants.

[00:27:41]We use them extensively in our naturalistic gardens at Mount Cuba Center. We find them even in the natural lands at Mount Cuba. Plants like Solidago caesia or blue stem golden rod, um Solidago flexicaulis, um even plants like Solidago patula, these are incredible plants for the shady home garden. Um a few of those species can handle dry shade as well.

[00:28:02]Like Solidago caesia is a really good candidate for drier locations in shade.

[00:28:06]Um plants like Solidago patula like a wetter spot in shade. Um but they're all incredible ways to brighten up your garden if you have only have shady landscapes and also increase the wildlife value of your of your woodland garden. Um or if you have a little bit of both, you could have sun and shade, um you can have an even broader uh diversity of golden rods in your home garden.

[00:28:28]>> Yes, the Solidago caesia, the blue stem golden rod, >> Yes.

[00:28:32]>> I'm planting a lot of that underneath one of my I'm starting a new shade bed garden that I've been working on and it's two maple trees.

[00:28:39]>> Yeah. Oh my goodness.

[00:28:41]>> shade.

[00:28:41]>> Yes, exactly.

[00:28:43]Yeah.

[00:28:43]>> Deep dry I mean there's shade and then there's maple shade.

[00:28:46]>> Mhm.

[00:28:47]>> This is maple shade. And I'm putting it out there in ferns. Doing gorgeous there along with some of our fall asters as well.

[00:28:54]>> Yeah. No, and they're they look great with asters. Um, you can mix them with ferns and sedges.

[00:29:00]Um, they're just incredible uh addition to a shady um, home garden.

[00:29:06]Um, and caseyi I think is one of the best. And we evaluated another species that's really similar called Solidago curtisii. Tends to be more of a mountain plant. It's a little bit of a larger species than Solidago caseyi, but very similar idea in terms of these long arching stems that often are kind of that blue to even black in color. And we did find curtisii was a little bit more sun tolerant, but handles uh shade just as well as as uh caseyi. So, another one to kind of keep an eye out for, but um, several of those species are very very shade tolerant and actually prefer it.

[00:29:38]>> Yes.

[00:29:39]>> Are you a fan of Backyard Ecology? Do you want to make sure you don't miss out on any of our content, announcements, or other fun stuff we have planned? Then be sure to sign up for our free weekly newsletter. Each week you will receive a helpful email from us with tips, stories, upcoming events, and our newest content. All conveniently packaged in a way that will take less than 5 minutes to read. I will have a link in the description for how you can join the thousands of others who have already subscribed to our free newsletter.

[00:30:06]>> And I mean we're talking about native plants too or native plants here as like native plants to What was your definition of it?

[00:30:15]>> Oh, native plant Eastern Temperate Forest region.

[00:30:17]>> Okay.

[00:30:18]>> While we generally promote our results to the Mid-Atlantic region specifically, we do source plants from basically the Eastern half of the United States.

[00:30:26]There's a few reasons for that. Um, one is that we want to have as broad a look at that genus as possible or that group of plants. Um, but if a plant is commercially available, if you can get that plant at your you know, your garden center we would like to be able to tell you whether that's a worthy investment or not, whether that's worth putting in your home garden. If it's not locally native, we'll do the testing for you.

[00:30:48]We'll see if it works. Um but we do also focus on locally native species. Um we have a had a really good mix of local genetics as well as commercially sourced plants that are from maybe not so local of a habitat or a a um of of a location where that plant is originally found or found in the wild.

[00:31:07]Um it's a really kind of a big broad net of plants that we do bring into the trial garden.

[00:31:12]>> But yeah, I would encourage people to really look for the species that one, fit your conditions because it's not going to grow if it doesn't fit your conditions. Um and then two, to pick the species that are native to where you are because that's going to give you the best results in the long run. Probably. Rather than I mean, yeah, but you could get this species or that species.

[00:31:39]But when you're having to choose between the two because nobody has unlimited space.

[00:31:42]>> That's right.

[00:31:43]>> The native species is native to where you live >> Mhm.

[00:31:47]>> is going to be the better choice.

[00:31:49]Um even if there's another species that's native to the to eastern temperate forest.

[00:31:56]>> Right.

[00:31:57]>> But is it native to where you live? It's the different scales here. Just like with golden rods, you can dive so deep.

[00:32:03]Native plants still, you can also go really deep with.

[00:32:06]>> Yes. And if you're listening from the Mid-Atlantic region, we do have a page in the report that is Mid-Atlantic specific. So we have coastal plain eco or coastal plain native species, Piedmont native species from this region. If locally native is important to you and your goals in your landscape, there's a little bit of a resource there. Um we also have a sortable Excel file on our uh on our website that you can go through kind of regardless of the trial performance. We have information on those plants, those species, and where where found in the wild, and you can make lists for yourself based on your gardening conditions. So, if you're saying, "Okay, I want I only have dry sandy soils. I have full sun or shade." You can make lists for yourself of goldenrods that will work in your garden specifically.

[00:32:50]And then you can cross-check that with some of the species that are native locally native to you if that's again your goal, and you can get a really good list of plants that will work for you.

[00:33:00]Um and you know, the the research reports are really just showing you what works well in those average garden conditions in the Mid-Atlantic region, but it is so much more than that. I think you can use our research to inform any number of decisions based on any number of gardening goals.

[00:33:14]>> Oh, yes. And that's two of the One I was really really excited to see that ecoregion specific table for the Mid-Atlantic. I was excited to see that.

[00:33:26]Um I think that's the first time you guys have done that.

[00:33:28]>> Yeah, we're we're trying to do more of that kind of thing. We really want to have results that anybody can use. And people's various goals will will change depending on what they're trying to do, what they're gardening for, how local is local um in terms of what they want to include in their home landscape. So, we're really trying to have a little bit of something for everyone. Um and we're really um I would say the trials really started off as being very horticulturally driven. So, the larger horticultural like garden industry um it was kind of like for the home gardener, not really too focused on you know, what was locally native or plants that were really well suited to restoration.

[00:34:07]But with the goldenrod trial, we had results for plants that we think can do the home garden perfectly well, but are also maybe really well suited for restoration projects. And what we were finding with some of these species is even when they're really well suited to both these worlds, some of these species just aren't very commercially available.

[00:34:25]So, that was something we kind of um endeavored to change at the end of this evaluation was to try to get some of these species that in some cases were extremely locally native to us out into the commercial world so that home gardener can put it in their landscape but also it could make these species available to the restoration practitioners as well so these species can get back in the landscape in a bigger scale and to be appropriately cited in the Mid-Atlantic region. So that's it's it's a newer thing for us but it's something we're starting to lean into more and more with some of our more recent trials.

[00:34:57]>> And I love seeing that and seeing how it's evolving and everything's evolving with those trial gardens. And the one thing that I've absolutely love and find so valuable and that you've been doing for a while and I love it is that Excel spreadsheet. Every time you guys do our trial report now I'm like downloading it and I'll use this even for myself to try and get those ideas of some of the things that might work in a drier setting or a wetter setting or sunnier or shadier that I might not be familiar with those species. And then I'm going back and seeing, okay, is that really native to here or not? But it gives me that first first sort.

[00:35:36]And it's a whole lot easier to go to sell Excel spreadsheet that you guys have already put together >> Right.

[00:35:41]>> and do that first sort through than for me to have to go through and find every species myself and then find that same information and do the sort. So I really appreciate you guys making that available in the way you >> Of course. It's it's all about helping people make informed decisions. So we're not trying to push anyone in any one direction. I think anybody's garden goals are you know equally valid but we're just trying to help people you know get access to good information and make good choices about plants that will work in their landscape and they'll hopefully have success with their plants, success in bringing wildlife to their home garden and hopefully want to plant more native plants to bring in more wildlife. So that's the hope.

[00:36:21]>> And I think you guys do a really good job of that too.

[00:36:25]And so yeah, you guys have just recently released uh well, at the beginning of the year >> Yes.

[00:36:30]>> the Solidago report and you evaluated what was it? 50 plants or 50 or 70 species?

[00:36:37]>> We evaluated 70 different golden rods. I think the species count came to about 50. Now, the reason for that, there was a few cultivars, a few hybrids, and few selections of some of these species where we did try to have the selection as well as a wild type plant uh presented, but about 50 species total of the overall 70 plants that we evaluated.

[00:36:56]>> Yeah, and you will look down for 3 years in your trial garden. So, yes, this was mid-Atlantic. Yes, this was medium average normal soil for you guys.

[00:37:07]>> Yep.

[00:37:08]>> Which may not be medium average normal soil for anybody else.

[00:37:11]>> That's right. That's right.

[00:37:12]>> [laughter] >> Georgia, this is not medium average soil for you.

[00:37:15]>> Right. A little different. Um although, I will say some of these plants uh one in particular um you know, it's been tested in different locations. Richard Hawke at Chicago Botanic Garden tested Solidago rugosa fireworks there as well, um which actually was selected from eastern North Carolina. And that plant was incredible in our trials. It was incredible in Chicago. This is just a plant that seems to um do well just about wherever you put it. I don't know about northern New England or the deep south, but some of these plants are just incredible. Um I think some of them are going to be a little bit more finicky on where you put them, maybe a little bit more locally adapted. Um but, I think that's part of the fun of trying these things. If you are outside of the mid-Atlantic region, try some of this stuff. See if it works. Um and some of these species are pretty widespread.

[00:38:04]They have large ranges and we may have only had the mid-Atlantic form or collection of that species, but if you lived in New England, maybe see if a local nursery is growing that local form. Same in the southeastern United States and see if that same species will perform well for you. It's It's really kind of fun to do those little trials at home as well.

[00:38:22]>> Yeah. And with golden rods, it's Oh my gosh.

[00:38:27]I don't want to go too deep into it because it's mind-blowing.

[00:38:30]But um again, you can go so deep into golden rod. How deep do you want to dive with them? But some of these species that have um really wide um native ranges, >> Mhm.

[00:38:43]>> [clears throat] >> the genetics variation between those is huge.

[00:38:49]>> Yeah.

[00:38:49]>> And not just like genetics as in, "Oh, it might get 5 ft here and 3 ft there 6 ft there." Not that sort of what we I would consider a normal genetic variation.

[00:39:00]But Solidago genetics is like crazy insane. Um you can have one species and depending on where you are in the country, so different different populations that are geographically distinct.

[00:39:18]One population may be have um two sets of chromosomes.

[00:39:22]>> Mhm.

[00:39:22]>> One set may have four sets of chromosomes, and one set one other population may have six sets of chromosomes. I mean, it's just like no.

[00:39:30]>> Mhm.

[00:39:31]>> It just gets insane. So again, for ecological purposes, trying to get not just native species to where you are at, those locally native species, but also >> Yes.

[00:39:45]>> when possible, and it's really hard to do this, get the local genetics or as local as possible, it's probably going to give you better results both ecologically and just growing in your garden because they're going to be more adapted to that area. Now, it's really hard to get local genetics for many species. That's a given.

[00:40:07]>> Yeah.

[00:40:08]>> Like I said.

[00:40:09]>> When possible, do what you can.

[00:40:12]But it's it's also kind of fascinating knowing that that genetic variation is there.

[00:40:17]>> It's actually something we are trying to look into in more detail with with some of our upcoming trials like Pycnanthemum and even Bluestem our Bluestem trial with this species of Andropogons sampling some of these species at various latitudes even some of these really widespread species like Little Bluestem.

[00:40:35]It's native to a huge swath of the Eastern United States and its performance at least in a common garden setting which is what we're looking at in the trial garden varies dramatically and the size of that plant and when that plant flowers and that is something that we've seen again and again in terms of the phenology of these plants. When you take a plant from the deep south or southeast United States if it was collected in South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi we bring those genetics up and compare it to our Mid-Atlantic forms it often blooms much much later than our local forms and is later to emerge in the spring and sometimes they are so different that I would imagine a specialist that is adapted to our local forms of these species is timed with their bloom period might not even be able to access the value that that southern plant is providing and the same thing goes for plants that are sourced from northern populations except they bloom much earlier than our local forms.

[00:41:32]That's something we're seeing again and again in these evaluations.

[00:41:35]I would say that it's sometimes like you said it's difficult to find those local genes and sometimes when you're buying that straight species there's not a lot of information that comes along with where that plant came from in the wild and that can be tricky but we can really I think as consumers we can start to demand a little bit more transparency of nurseries in terms of where those plants came from, where that seed was collected, how it was grown, all of that good stuff. I but I think that's that's I think things are getting better it's improving and it is in terms of availability of local of local genetics but I think as consumers we can we can be pushing the envelope a little bit more and hopefully creating a better uh a better consuming environment where you can get some of these plants a little bit more easily.

[00:42:22]>> Right. Because, I mean And this starts to get a lot more complicated, too.

[00:42:29]Because, like with the Solidagos especially, like there's a lot of genera that do this, but Solidagos especially are really well-known to hybridize when you get those species that are overlapping ranges and blooming at the same time.

[00:42:45]>> Right.

[00:42:46]>> They hybridize a lot.

[00:42:48]So, again, I mean, this kind of goes to what you were saying a little bit before is everybody's got different values >> Mhm.

[00:42:56]>> and reasons why they're doing this. If you're just doing this because native plants are trendy and you want to have native plants, okay, great. Don't You can tune out of this part of the conversation.

[00:43:05][laughter] But if you're doing it for the ecology, cuz this is Backyard Ecology podcast, >> Right.

[00:43:11]>> and thinking about those pollinators and the wildlife that uses it and the plants themselves, then how might this hybridization impact things in the long term?

[00:43:26]>> Mhm.

[00:43:27]>> It's a good question, I think, to ask.

[00:43:28]And I don't think anybody has that answer.

[00:43:30]>> Right.

[00:43:31]>> And 5, 10 years ago when I first heard people starting to ask this question, like routinely, some of the botanists and researchers and scientists, uh my initial thought was oh, there's so that's going to be one or two plants out there.

[00:43:47]So, that hybridization, the genetics are going to get swamped, it's not going to be that big of a deal unless you're putting it like into a restoration >> Right.

[00:43:55]>> But, native plants are taking off.

[00:43:58]More and more people are trying to do this. And that's exciting and that's wonderful.

[00:44:03]But that compounds that question that question and that potential problem that we don't know what unintentional consequences it could be.

[00:44:11]>> Right.

[00:44:12]>> And right or wrong, I don't know. I don't have an answer.

[00:44:16]But I think it's a question we have to start thinking about and asking if we're doing it for the ecological reasons, to create those homegrown national parks, to help the pollinators, help the wildlife.

[00:44:28]And like you said, you give the information with the reports that anybody can go and figure find out the broad scape stuff. And then it's up to us as individuals to say, "Okay, I like the species. Is it native to where I live?"

[00:44:45]>> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Or is it not? Because just because it grows in your area, it doesn't mean it's native. I mean, I've got a friend that lives 45 minutes from me.

[00:44:56]And he bought cliffside goldenrod.

[00:45:00]Or um there's a bunch of different common names for it. Um Drummondii.

[00:45:05]>> Yeah.

[00:45:05]>> Solidago Drummondii.

[00:45:06]>> Yep.

[00:45:07]>> At a native plant sale. From a native plant nursery in Kentucky.

[00:45:12]>> Mhm.

[00:45:13]>> It's not native to Kentucky.

[00:45:15]>> Right.

[00:45:15]>> It's native to Missouri and a little bit of Arkansas.

[00:45:18]>> Right.

[00:45:19]>> But he loved it because it was growing so well in this rocky area.

[00:45:23]>> Yep.

[00:45:23]>> But in his main front garden beds, it looked gorgeous there. He asked me one time um about a year after he planted it. He's like, "Oh, this is going so wonderfully. Why don't you ever talk about it, Shannon?" I had a small native plant nursery at the time. And he's like, "Have Do you guys need some seeds?

[00:45:40]It'd be great for you to grow." And I was like, "Well, it's not native here."

[00:45:45]Which he was really surprised about, too. And I was surprised when he said where he got it from, too, that they were selling that one. But um yeah, it would it was gorgeous.

[00:45:55]>> Yeah.

[00:45:55]>> Where he was at.

[00:45:56]Um we had the conversation about hybridization. He was like, "Well, I'll watch it and stuff. Um but then within 2 year the second year it had spread so much >> Mhm.

[00:46:11]>> that he started pulling it up. By the third year, he was ripping everything out because it was like taking over his garden beds.

[00:46:16]>> Wow. Yeah.

[00:46:17]>> Because it was it liked it so much in that area. And that's when he was like, uh yeah, maybe this isn't the one that needs to be growing in my garden in my for my area.

[00:46:27]>> Mhm.

[00:46:27]>> Um because of those other deeper issues, but yeah, you've kind of got to it's questions that we're only just now starting to even think to ask, I think.

[00:46:37]I mean >> Yeah.

[00:46:39]No, I think it's it's it's a really valid point and I think um I would I would say that when we're talking about some of these plants, growing them outside of our range and cultivars, hybrids, these are perhaps plants that are best suited for suburban home garden, for even like a garden in a city where you are relatively isolated from any natural habitats, any like truly pristine, unmodified um natural areas. And you know, the goals of that landscape might be very, very different from a restoration site where we you know, we're encouraging locally native, local ecotype plants, seed grown, um that's the priority. We we certainly would not plant Solidago Drummondii out in our natural lands. Um although it actually ended up being a really good plant in our trials as well in terms of being a well-behaved goldenrod. I think there are certain areas where you could use it, but this is again, right plant, right place. Um we wouldn't be planting this in a restoration setting. As you mentioned, Southeastern Pennsylvania, northern Delaware is a very different place from Missouri. Um and taking these plants out of their natural habitat, bringing them to the Mid-Atlantic region, you know, they they can behave differently. Um so it's something that you do have to think about, especially if you're thinking about where your gardening, where your garden is located. Um yeah, it's just it's it's complex. I think this whole conversation is very deep, it's complex, there's a lot of nuance to it for sure.

[00:48:10]Um and [clears throat] uh I think there's a lot of things that we're starting to think about that I think are really, really important considerations that you've been mentioning.

[00:48:17]>> And like you said, just like the trials started out more from a horticultural perspective and then are now evolving and developing. I think that's where a lot of the native plant growing and the native plant gardens is doing.

[00:48:31]They started out a lot of horticulture.

[00:48:33]Yeah, they bring in a few more butterflies and that's something wonderful and it feels good and but now they're starting to evolve into that deeper thing. And that's where I think our thinking is starting to develop evolve as well and the questions that we're asking and thinking about those goals.

[00:48:48]So, yeah, I'm not trying to make it sound like it's bad good or bad, it's just kind of like >> Right.

[00:48:54]>> raising those issues because >> Yep.

[00:48:57]>> Sometimes you don't even think to ask those questions and then somebody says it and it's like Oh, yes.

[00:49:02]>> Mhm.

[00:49:03]That's right. [laughter] Yep.

[00:49:06]>> Yeah, that kind of squirrelled off, but I think it's a good squirrel.

[00:49:09]>> Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's it's I don't know. I like when organic things happen and it is important to talk about.

[00:49:16]>> Mhm.

[00:49:16]>> Um so, I think it's I think in in terms of how we assemble the trial, like you almost feel like a collector. Like it's like you're you want one of everything, you want to just try all this stuff.

[00:49:28]Um and I think there are times when as gardeners we can be guilty of that, too, where you're just interested, you want to learn about these plants and I truly believe like the best way to learn about a plant is to grow it and to observe it, to watch it. Um but I think it maybe sometimes it's not that simple in terms of really what is the most beneficial thing to do, uh especially when we're talking about wildlife. Um but then the other side of it, too, I think about like where I garden at home. I There's nowhere around me that isn't an intact natural area. It is The world around me is is suburbia. It has so changed. There's no remnant prairies. There's no remnant old-growth woodlands. It is as human changed as it can possibly be.

[00:50:14]And in that kind of area I do think of these things on a spectrum. Like, well, you know, Solidago Drummondii is a heck of a lot better than butterfly bush or, you know, I mean, that's an extreme example, but um I think it's it is complicated. But if I lived next to a restoration area, like think about the serpentine barrens up by us all the time. There's this incredibly rare habitat. It is loaded with rare, rare species that only occur in these tiny little pockets of serpentine rock.

[00:50:46]Um And I think I would be pretty nervous about planting a plant like Solidago Drummondii near that.

[00:50:54]Um, cuz that to me sounds like a habitat where Solidago Drummondii might escape and make itself right at home.

[00:51:02]Um, so I do think you have to look around you and think about where you live, the consequences of what might happen if that plant escaped. Like I always talk about non-native plants in a similar way. Cuz you're you know, I think that, you know, generally I say it's, you know, it's not it's not a cardinal sin to include a non-native plant in your home garden. I think we do just have to think about those plants as our responsibility. If we do start to see that plant behaving in a way that we think could cause ecological harm, if we're starting to see it seed around in places we don't want it to or to spread, I think it is our responsibility to remove that plant when we start to see those tendencies. And I rarely hear people talk about native plants in that same way. But I think there are or native plants in the broadest sense.

[00:51:49]But I think it's something that that we need to think about. But again, I rarely rarely ever hear addressed and discussed. But I think there are cases where we need to we need to be thoughtful and considerate and observant. I think that's really the biggest thing like your friend seeing what Solidago canadensis I did.

[00:52:09]Like you know, that's that's great. That's an example of someone being observant, recognizing there's a problem, and acting before things maybe got out of control. But yeah, it's it's again complicated. There's nuance. It's it's difficult.

[00:52:24]But it's really interesting, too.

[00:52:26]>> Yeah, exactly. And complicated and nuanced is exactly the way I look at it because yeah, I've always thought the same thing, too. Is that I'd much rather somebody plant a species of Solidago >> Right.

[00:52:38]>> or Pycnanthemum, your mountain mint, or Vernonia, your name whatever it is native to North America.

[00:52:45]>> Right.

[00:52:46]>> Or native to the eastern US that isn't native to your specific location than to plant something like a butterfly bush or because it's going that semi-native is going to do at least more good than the other. At least more initial good. But the more I get into it and the more I think about it it's like I I start like you said, it gets to be complex and complicated. And I don't want to make it so cuz I start thinking about oh, but how close is too close to a natural area?

[00:53:18]>> Right.

[00:53:19]>> And how far does it spread and you get into start thinking about and you can get so lost in the weeds and I don't want to make it so complex or so nuanced or lost in the weed that weeds that people like tune out. No, it's too it it's too much and to back away from native plants at all. So yeah, it's finding that balance.

[00:53:36]But I think there is a place to ask these questions and I think we're We're to the time where like you said, we're not talking about it in the same way. And I think we're getting into that time where it's an important conversation to start having and to start raising that question and that awareness a little bit.

[00:53:53]>> Yeah. No, I I I completely agree. I think I think there one of the strengths of the trials is to make this information accessible and to make people feel like, you know, okay, I can take my first step into gardening with native plants and I can feel empowered to do that. Um and maybe it's also uh one part of our responsibility to to start having people ask these deeper questions. I think we want to, you know, create as big an umbrella as we possibly can, get people involved, you know, just get people into this world um and then, you know, you know, start asking these questions once you're really you're there and you're starting to understand things.

[00:54:32]But like you said, like it can be really overwhelming you throw like all this stuff all these concepts at people all at once.

[00:54:39]And we one of the things we talk about a lot is, you know, at least when you're starting, it's like don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect. Like start somewhere. Plant a native plant. Just start. And then we can evolve and we can grow in this journey that we're on can maybe we get to that place where we're growing like all seed grown locally native plants. Like we're doing you know, we're growing them in milk jugs.

[00:55:01]We're we're we're doing the thing. We've killed our lawns. You know, it's like and maybe that's where um that's the gold standard. That's where we really want people to get to. But I think we do have to start them somewhere and I I really see the trials as as that being a strength of the trials is get people getting people's feet in the door. Um showing people the diversity of all these plants that are out there. Um I think that's where that's where I have the most fun. Um just just seeing that spark of excitement of people, you know, being inspired by the beauty of these native plants and the value of native plants. Um which is yeah, it's the whole thing. Um anyways, it's it's exciting. Get it? I get it.

[00:55:38]>> It is very exciting. And I agree. I mean, definitely want to get that spark. Don't let Don't let the perfect stop you.

[00:55:48]>> Right.

[00:55:48]>> Do what you can where you're at now. I will be the first to admit I don't have all native plants on my property.

[00:55:57]>> Me, neither.

[00:55:57]>> Not everything is local Not all my native plants are local genetics, even.

[00:56:02]>> Right.

[00:56:03]>> Um, because I can't get local genetics for everything I want. I mean, I try to keep it at least within a neighboring state for the genetics.

[00:56:14]I try not to go too far, but there are I still got plants that have that genetics because I bought them before I started thinking about that stuff.

[00:56:24]>> Right.

[00:56:24]>> And I haven't pulled them up.

[00:56:26]>> Right.

[00:56:26]>> Cuz [laughter] I like them, and they do do some good.

[00:56:29]Um, so, yeah, it's it's a good start, and I think the trial gardens that you guys do are amazing at that. So, I will have a link to the latest report, the Solidago report, um, in the show notes for in the description for anybody that wants to go back there and look at it. And yeah, you guys do such an excellent job with that.

[00:56:51]>> Thank you, Shannon. I appreciate it.

[00:56:53]>> And in the next episode, we're going to to kind of dig into that report and learn about which species performed really well and some things to consider potentially when growing goldenrods in your garden. So, thanks so much for being a guest on the Backyard Ecology podcast and for sharing your knowledge with our listeners. And talk to you more in the next episode.

[00:57:16]>> Absolutely. My pleasure and anytime.

[00:57:18]>> And if you'd like to learn more about the goldenrod apple galls that Sam and I talked about, then check out this short video.

[00:57:25]And don't forget to take some time to enjoy the nature in your yard and community.