The Man Who Built Robots for 60 Years | Mark Rosheim

[00:00:00]This is the 1980s.

[00:00:02]This is our first um prototype of a wrist wrist.

[00:00:11]See the ball and socket? So, I built this by hand myself.

[00:00:16]I bought a World War II lathe that weighed about 300 lb, dragged it to This is where I lived in an apartment and I was a young person in my 20s and I uh and I bought a milling machine from Menards or some and that weighed about 250 lb.

[00:00:36]Uh so, this was the first first prototype and uh of the OmnWrist series.

[00:00:44]And that more currently This is an an example of something that we built without CAD.

[00:00:55]So, I uh got to build this model.

[00:01:01]And then I started to market it to robot companies and I got a job offer in Michigan and Detroit uh at a company called Autoplace.

[00:01:11]And um you know, we ended up not doing a deal, but this was my first patented robot joint. These things ran on brushless motors and this is our oh early version of our own custom linear actuators.

[00:01:28][ __ ] that [ __ ] I mean, it's like I'm so uh we did these goddamn linear actuators for years and I can tell you from experience that it is a dead end.

[00:01:39]And but anyway, talking about heat, these things were running hot. These brushless motors, when these things were running under test, it um you couldn't touch them, you know, they were so hot. And we burned out some. So, yeah.

[00:01:55]You might shake hands with this robot and get third-degree burns, but that's you know, that's part of the game. So, but my first robot was this guy.

[00:02:08]Made out of Tinker Toys. So, if I may digress slightly, the Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Devices.

[00:02:19]And this is a very famous book by Al-Jazari, which I'm probably mispronouncing his name.

[00:02:26]But, um Oh, there.

[00:02:32]I don't know if you can see this.

[00:02:35]And I could see the cams. And in fact, I have that right here.

[00:02:41]Oh god, it's heavy.

[00:02:45]Oh.

[00:02:47]Yeah, so there's the cams. See the cams?

[00:02:51]Well, this is the the Leonardo's cart.

[00:02:54]The U-joints go about a common center.

[00:02:57]In the Omnires 3, they're they're they're spaced apart, and that's what makes it so compact. So, um and then I have a chapter on hands, on humanoid hands, and why I think they should be designed the way we designed them. Oh yeah, I forgot this guy. This was my very first robot.

[00:03:18]Amityville Horror windows.

[00:03:21]Scary windows.

[00:03:22]>> This is a different location.

[00:03:24]>> [clears throat] >> Yeah, and um and I have my friends with me.

[00:03:31]Danger, danger, danger, danger.

[00:03:36]>> [laughter] >> Where exactly are I think this is the top floor, right? This is the top floor.

[00:03:43]Oh my god.

[00:03:46]>> Yeah, this is I'm up in the top floor of my international headquarters, so >> Wow.

[00:03:52]>> and but I got this guy I got this guy.

[00:03:58]>> Oh, wow.

[00:04:00]What's your name?

[00:04:01]>> I I made this guy in sixth grade.

[00:04:04]>> Oh my god. How do you feel keeping all of this over the years? I would feel crazy.

[00:04:10]>> This This This is an exact recreation.

[00:04:12]The original one is long gone, but this is exactly what I built. I've a Well, I have a really good memory. But then I did some detective work and I you're like, "Where did I get this motor?" And then I remembered that at the time, I mean, I didn't have any motors. I'd taken it out of a little toy fire truck. And then I went online looking for that fire truck and then I identified it.

[00:04:37]And it was a made in Japan toy.

[00:04:40]And uh then I hunted down the uh uh the an identical part in an antique store.

[00:04:48]And And that was it. I I identified it.

[00:04:51]I could remember it really well.

[00:04:53]And uh all the dimensions like this black dial came from original one came from my dad's drug store and it was used as a kind of a screen and uh I could remember the Folgers coffee can.

[00:05:08]That's what my parents drank.

[00:05:10]And so um it But all these things like this can this motor you know, these lights it lights up. Um they They don't make that stuff anymore, so I had to hunt this stuff down.

[00:05:25]And this battery is not real. It's a fake Rayovac battery that I made myself.

[00:05:33]And inside of it are modern batteries.

[00:05:36]So it was quite a quite an effort to get this guy um together.

[00:05:44]So but do want to start the show? We'll start in at the beginning or >> As you wish. Where would you like we start?

[00:05:50]>> Okay. Okay. Well, >> [clears throat] >> anyway, how it all started was with this guy, the robot from Lost in Space.

[00:06:02]This guy still works.

[00:06:04]Lights up.

[00:06:06]See, you turn this off.

[00:06:13]So, um this was my favorite show, Lost in Space, in the mid-1960s.

[00:06:20]And the adventures of the So, um another one I liked a lot was the cartoon show Astro Boy.

[00:06:32]A- And uh that was uh broadcast at 3:00 3:00 in the afternoon every day on the Bozo the Clown Show.

[00:06:42]And I remember one time I missed the show.

[00:06:45]And I threw a tantrum so bad that my mom threatened to call the police to get me to calm down.

[00:06:52]So, uh anyway, so but what I didn't know at the time is Astro Boy and uh the the Lost in Space robot were Lost in Space robot was designed by a Japanese uh designer, Robert uh Kinoshita. A- And also, Astro Boy was designed by a Japanese designer.

[00:07:14]So, there was a Japanese influence in the early on.

[00:07:19]Um and then this is another robot toy I liked a lot called uh Zer- This is Zerak of the Zeroids.

[00:07:30]This thing, these cost a dollar in the 1960s. You know what they sell for now?

[00:07:36]>> How much?

[00:07:36]>> About $500 in a box in in a in a good box and new in it. Nice looking. So, these are Uh there's some Japanese company uh Ideal Ideal Toy Company.

[00:07:50]I Ideal um made uh made Hong Kong.

[00:07:56]So, uh this design I think is really prescient. He's on tracks and no walking legs.

[00:08:04]I think this is quite an interesting design.

[00:08:07]So, and then also Star Trek, you know, came along in the '60s.

[00:08:15]And um but my first robot was this guy.

[00:08:23]Made out of Tinker Toys. So, >> Explain this.

[00:08:28]>> Oh, okay.

[00:08:29]>> What's fun but it was really interesting the um >> Here's his Here's his eyes.

[00:08:36]So, his head moves around.

[00:08:38]And he has a a motorized base that he can roll.

[00:08:43]But what is really innovative and interesting about this thing are the arms. Because the arms are guns.

[00:08:51]I'm going to fire one.

[00:08:53]>> Oh.

[00:08:54]Oh, interesting.

[00:08:58]>> And here goes it Here Now I'm going to fire the other one.

[00:09:01]Hopefully I won't kill anybody.

[00:09:03]>> [laughter] >> Oh, that was kind of a dud. Um well, but but what's what's what I'm what I'm leading to is Okay.

[00:09:12]This was my first invention, which is a Tinker Toy gun.

[00:09:16]And so, it's powered by a uh elastomeric uh energy retaining uh actuator. In other words, rubber band.

[00:09:27]So, we have a rubber band, but it's kind of clever how I See how it's threaded into the Tinker Toys.

[00:09:34]It's a single rubber band, and then threaded into this little thing.

[00:09:39]But, this is around 1965 when I was around five.

[00:09:45]And it's a parallel mechanism in that the the rods are parallel. Now, flash forward another 60 years.

[00:09:54]See the similarity?

[00:09:57]How how similar they are? I mean, we have these I mean, these discs and we have two discs here.

[00:10:03]And and the rubber band in there is and then we have the motors in gray here, the motors here. So, they're very they're very similar. I can use my t-shirt as a And um I think that's kind of interesting. And and in my book I talk about this and and other uh strange parallels, you know, to Leonardo da Vinci's robots and so forth.

[00:10:30]Um So, anyway, around sixth grade Wait, I forgot this guy. This was my very first robot.

[00:10:42]This was my very first robot.

[00:10:45]This is my very first robot and I built this. My parents had gone to a party and the babysitter, Mrs. Booth, was uh taking care of me and my brothers.

[00:10:53]And I found this this cardboard box was for a party sausage, you know, like these big party sausages and and uh I took that and I took a paring knife and I cut holes and then these are Christmas lights for outdoor Christmas lights and so he lights up. Anyway, see, he has a plug. So, anyway, I put this in my uh against the window of my parents' bedroom and so when they came home, I I stayed up, you know, I was getting sleepy but I stayed up.

[00:11:26]And they I can remember when my mom said, "Wow, what is this?" And she she thought it was really great and she called it a work of pop art.

[00:11:34]>> Oh.

[00:11:34]>> Of course this is the 1960s so you know pop art and Andy Warhol everything. But anyway this was my very first robot.

[00:11:41]>> And what was the inspiration? Did you saw something in a cartoon like then or >> Well well look at the see the see the hand arms and see see the arms are like the Lost in Space robot the claws you know.

[00:11:55]See how the claws are are are similar.

[00:11:58]So um you know we really have the Lost in Space uh you know influence there.

[00:12:07]But I just um you know I I just configured this guy you know like a face and then I took a black magic marker and made a smile on him. But to find you know I I figured out I remember what this box was and about its size and I went through a big hunt to find these and I like you know I I realized eventually it was a standard box 2 ft by 4 4 in by 4 in. Standard box.

[00:12:37]I looked and looked I didn't want to buy like 20 of them you know.

[00:12:41]And eventually I'm in my office I turn around and I had this box sitting there something had came you know came in it.

[00:12:49]So I just uh you know based on memory put them together but he's very accurate and so this was my very first robot.

[00:12:58]>> Wow.

[00:13:00]>> And uh so um and then you know around 6th grade I made this guy.

[00:13:09]And uh so this was kind of ambitious.

[00:13:14]Yeah he and then he can swing.

[00:13:20]Yeah I did this in around 1971 or so in 6th grade.

[00:13:25]>> And I did this to ask back then in school, do you have any classes for I I doubt you did any >> No, no, no, this is all my own.

[00:13:34]No, I would bring this stuff to class.

[00:13:37]And this teacher who had a degree in mathematics, Mr. Williams, he was encouraging, you know. But no, I did this all on my own. I designed it, you know, found the parts.

[00:13:51]Um now, I did have a very supportive father.

[00:13:54]And I had my own charge account at the local hardware store. So, I could just go in and buy things, you know, without having to pay for them cuz my dad paid for them.

[00:14:04]And uh uh but, you know, he has a gripper.

[00:14:09]And he can he can pick things up and he can move around.

[00:14:14]So, I brought this to school and kids loved it.

[00:14:17]Now, so but but then uh in junior high school, I it was a different story and this is a a an uh adding machine I I invented.

[00:14:34]So, it set on zero. So, I I have this indicator.

[00:14:37]Let's say we want to add two and we bring that down.

[00:14:41]Oops.

[00:14:42]Then we want to add four.

[00:14:46]Well, it's supposed >> [laughter] >> two it's supposed to read six. I don't, you know, I I'm too nervous to get it right. But um this was a simple analog adding machine.

[00:14:58]And recently, I was at the Science Museum in London and there was something very similar to this. Even had a spring in there, a ratchet mechanism that was invented like a hundred years ago.

[00:15:09]And and much more elegant and elaborate, but just the same design. And I do an AB comparison in my in my book, you know, showing >> I need to understand this.

[00:15:22]Because it's remind me to the water clock. Did you see the water clock that used the gears and water system?

[00:15:28]>> Yeah, yeah. It's similar.

[00:15:31]Yeah.

[00:15:32]Yeah, it's analog. It's analog. Um and uh see if I can so 1 plus 2 Well, anyway, I need to think on this >> Explain gears, maybe you can explain the arrangement of these gears and how this translate.

[00:15:52]>> Well, what this arrangement is Let me get this real.

[00:15:58]Is there's this is a ratchet mechanism.

[00:16:01]So, uh this paw engages that gear and then there's a spring here so I can move this around.

[00:16:10]And so So you aim the pointer at 1 or or it's already at 1 and then you set it to 3 and then that gives you the reading of a 4. Oops, I probably didn't So, um the mechanism is is is like this.

[00:16:36]So So, we go to set it to 1, bring it down set it to 2 and it should be down there. Anyway um but this was my first I was inspired by I think Charles Babbage. I maybe read about him or I just thought it up on my own. I can't remember.

[00:17:01]But um so it adds simple numbers up till 10 or to 11.

[00:17:09]And I found you know, I found the disc I think in a wood pile or um So so two plus Yeah, there. Six.

[00:17:28]So, um anyway, this was an example of something I built in the family workshop.

[00:17:35]Uh and this is a reproduction, too.

[00:17:37]Now, um Oh, the teacher. I brought this to math class in a box and I had it underneath my seat.

[00:17:46]And I brought it out. My teacher just hated it. She screamed at me, "Put that away." She did not like that.

[00:17:53]I also had a another math teacher in that building that I solved a geometry problem in a different way. She hated it.

[00:18:02]My parents got me out of that class eventually.

[00:18:05]But in [snorts] uh seventh grade, I made this guy.

[00:18:10]This is my was a historic is a historical model of the um temple doors, moving temple doors.

[00:18:18]Uh the ancient temple doors. So, uh this is ground level and then this is an urn and you would have uh oil or something in here, light it up, and that creates uh the the water boils and it expands and pushes down in there and then it forces There's water already in here.

[00:18:42]The water goes up, fills this little thing, and then and then turns this turns this and moves the door.

[00:18:51]My door's not stuck on very well. Um but it's uh uh described in um ancient texts by Hero of Alexandria.

[00:19:02]And um so I built this in eighth grade and I demonstrated this to the social studies class. So, they liked that.

[00:19:10]So, this was my first historical model which led eventually to my Leonardo da Vinci historical models.

[00:19:17]And then um >> By the way, I saw I I saw the the video with the temple door uh in the Roman Empire they have this >> Yeah yeah that's it. That's it.

[00:19:31]>> pauses before the heavy bronze doors and lights a small fire on an altar beside the entrance. Without a single touch from human hands, the temple doors slowly swing open. This isn't magic.

[00:19:44]It's a part of Hero's impressive design.

[00:19:47]Beneath the altar, water and air were sealed in a hidden container. When the fire was lit, it heated the air which expanded and built up pressure. The pressure pushed the water through a pipe into a different container. As this container was filled with water, the increased weight pulled it down. The container was connected to two ropes tightened around two poles and when turned, the doors would open automatically. When the fire was put out, the air cooled, the pressure dropped, and the water flowed back to its original container through negative pressure. The doors slowly closed as the system reset itself.

[00:20:24]>> And and then this is a made from a croquet ball and this is my my first wrist actuator.

[00:20:32]And this comes apart and I was fascinated by the geometry of the the right triangles on a spherical surface and so well I I make um I bought this or I found this croquet ball and then I machined it on a band saw.

[00:20:53]And uh I picked the locks to get into the shop to get access at night. So it was kind of illegal. So this is when I was a a teenager. And then um I went to the University of Minnesota and they had a graduate course called Advanced Engineering Problems 5190.

[00:21:16]And I thought, "Well, and they say you could build something in this class." And even though I was undergraduate student, I went and took the class and they never asked me if I was a graduate student.

[00:21:27]So, I They didn't ask, I didn't tell.

[00:21:30]So, I, uh, got to build this model.

[00:21:34]And then I started to market it to robot companies and I got a job offer in Michigan, uh, Detroit, uh, at a company called Autoplace.

[00:21:45]And, um, you know, we ended up not doing a deal, but this was my first patented robot joint and, um, >> And this is looks interesting. Uh, it's very compact. What was the limitation of this design? Because it sounds to me a good ball of socket joint, maybe, um, >> The problem is it's not It's hydraulic like in the whole world started going electric. So, I came up with this.

[00:22:13]And this is the ancestor of, um, of of what you you showed earlier.

[00:22:21]This is the ancestor.

[00:22:23]So, um, I built this in my parents' garage.

[00:22:31]So, this is So, um, the NASA design is like two of these back-to-back.

[00:22:38]Only it's, um, half cut in half. So, instead of a full circle, you have a horseshoe.

[00:22:44]And I had that I built Yeah, that It This is the ancestor of that thing. Yes.

[00:22:51]Yep, this is the ancestor. And then I built a model of of what you're looking at.

[00:22:57]I can go get it if if we can cut for just a second. I'll go get the Okay, I'll go get it. We're picking you up in about 2 minutes.

[00:23:05]>> Okay.

[00:23:07]>> Yeah.

[00:23:11]The first prototype of the NASA thing that that, you know, you had on your video.

[00:23:19]And uh so I built this by hand myself.

[00:23:24]I bought a World War II lathe that weighed about 300 lb, dragged it to This is when I lived in an apartment and I was a young person in my 20s and I uh and I bought a milling machine from Menards or some and that weighed about 250 lb. So, I put this all in a spare bedroom of a two-bedroom apartment and I built this prototype.

[00:23:49]So, this is uh you know the the the first OmniWrist, really.

[00:23:55]>> have video for that. I don't see this in your You don't have this in the videos. You don't have this model.

[00:24:01]>> No, no, that not this prototype.

[00:24:04]I mean uh compared to I mean this was all I hand-built, you know, hand-designed.

[00:24:10]I did it all on paper.

[00:24:12]AutoCAD didn't exist when this was built in the I don't know uh '80 six or so. I mean, CAD almost didn't exist then.

[00:24:24]But, I found these like I found this part in a ditch or in a gutter on a street. I I found this in some uh surplus store and I bought some tubing and I fabricated this whole thing.

[00:24:38]Uh so, this was the first first prototype and uh of the OmniWrist series.

[00:24:46]And that >> [clears throat] >> more currently this is an an example of something that we built without CAD.

[00:24:57]So, it's fundamental. It's a It's a mirrored tripod is all it is.

[00:25:13]And you can I mean, this is one version where the motors are remote. The motors are down here.

[00:25:19]And then this version for the shoulder of the Surrogate Surrogate uh uh uh four, the motors are here.

[00:25:28]And so, but this is a fundamental robotic component, in my opinion.

[00:25:33]And uh you can make it this small with hobby store components.

[00:25:39]Or you can, you know, it's very it's fundamental. So, the I mean, what's so basic is uh you don't need in this design, you don't need custom linear actuators. You can use standard ball screws, standard ball screws, because the screws retract into empty space.

[00:26:04]You know, like alongside your arm or up here, you know, around your neck.

[00:26:10]So, um you know, if you bring up Surrogate four on your on the screen, you can see um how simple it is. It's just made up of Tinker Toys.

[00:26:22]So, we've gone It's taken me 60 years to get back to Tinker Toys. And And I'm back to the Tinker Toy method of design.

[00:26:31]And it's so easy.

[00:26:33]I mean, compared to humanoid robots like we did the Surrogate two for NASA, it was a nightmare just ordering the parts. There were hundreds of unique parts, expensive parts.

[00:26:45]And in Surrogate four, we finally got back to the Tinker Toy approach and have something very simple. and So, you know, Elon, if you're listening here, yes, this is it. Save you money.

[00:26:59]You will own half price what you're doing now.

[00:27:02]>> So, we have the Yep, here is >> No.

[00:27:09]Surrogate four.

[00:27:10]>> Sorry, the the newest one whose video >> Yeah, the new >> I have it. I have it just I have to get out.

[00:27:17]I don't know.

[00:27:20]Should be here.

[00:27:22]This is >> Yes, there it is. There it is. Yeah, run that.

[00:27:28]Yeah, uh so, the spine, for example, is one of these.

[00:27:33]And see how the the screws go up into, you know, the kind of chest area. It doesn't matter.

[00:27:39]You know, you don't need you don't need super compact custom uh planetary roller screws. You can just do it with standard ball screws and standard motors. So, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. We We did that 30 years ago. We called them Minacs, miniature and linear actuators.

[00:27:58]And uh they're they're very expensive.

[00:28:01]And nothing compares to commercial off-the-shelf components like ball screws or standard you could use stepper motors.

[00:28:10]They're cheap. You're probably talking a cost reduction of 1 to 200%.

[00:28:18]Half or more.

[00:28:20]The cost reduction in cost.

[00:28:22]But also, we have much more flexibility than what everybody's doing. I mean, we have 180° hemispherical um motion of the spine. And we have Z axis. See what it's doing right now?

[00:28:36]It's It's raising itself.

[00:28:38]It can go up and down, too. So, not only do we have pitch and yaw, a hemispherical coverage of pitch and yaw, we also have Z axis. So, you know, you don't need legs. You can put this on wheels. Now, here we're showing the shoulders running.

[00:28:56]And see how the the the ball screws retract into the back of the robot or uh alongside the upper arm. They they run parallel.

[00:29:08]They're parallel mechanisms. And so this is a a huge advancement over what's currently being done. You first of all, you got a human-like dexterity.

[00:29:18]You don't The problem with what everybody copies, which is Honda's robot or prior to that, the Disney audio animatronics, you have a horrible singularity when the arms are out. They they lock up.

[00:29:34]We don't have that because we're like a human. I mean, I could build an exoskeleton like all the robots out there, put that on you, and you would hate it because you would be restricted. During the day, you'd find, "Well, kind of I can't move up here. I can't do this. Can't do that."

[00:29:51]And that would highlight the limitations of what they're doing. What they're doing is not human.

[00:29:57]It's very low flexibility, very low range of motion.

[00:30:00]Uh it's barbaric, and we must stop >> Yeah, I I think this is interesting because I don't know if you follow the news, but there was two announcements for the humanoid I don't know how much you follow the news, but there was announcement for >> Yeah, or Yeah, I watch all these >> And I I have a bit of Yeah, I think I agree with you in that sense.

[00:30:22]Um the the robots that Yeah.

[00:30:25]Like what Neo from 1X. I don't know if you you know them already. I think you know >> Well, the the human shoulder is literally a double ball socket. The the rib cage is the rib cage is like a giant ball, and then the the scapula is like a socket, so that's ball and socket number one.

[00:30:46]And then the second ball and socket is is more obvious with the the humerus going into the um they call it the glenohumeral joint into the rotator cuff. So, you know, that's ball and socket number one, then that's ball and socket number two.

[00:31:01]And that's why we have such great flexibility range of motion. But, these mannequin-like robots don't move like human beings. And they're they're arthropods. They're like um they're designed like uh insects or um crabs, you know? Well, they're a mélange. You know, they're a mélange. The upper body is is arthropod, the lower body's a little more anthropomorphic, but um you can see that in uh Boston Dynamics when that robot crawls on its all fours. When it crawls, it it moves like this, like a crab. You know, you see that.

[00:31:43]Singularities occurring um So, you know, they're after the perfect trying to get that mannequin silhouette, which isn't even really human, because the human uh silhouette changes.

[00:31:56]Like the the scapula stick out, you know, you see your your um your uh uh shoulder blades move out, and and we have that property. When those ball screws retract into the back of the robot, they uh you know, it's like a scapula.

[00:32:13]It poke out it poke out backwards, but who cares? It's in the back, you know?

[00:32:18]And I I advocate also for because we have such high flexibility is let's give it clothes, and you know, and uh uh something that you can change. I mean, these hard-shell shiny hard-shell plastic shells that they put on these robots, they can do that cuz they have very low flexibility joints, but also the problem is in 6 months in operation, it's going to look like someone's snowblower. You know, it's going to get scratched up and You know, I mean, do you really want that in your home?

[00:32:52]Um I mean I imagine robotics being more like uh you know, The Jetsons with Rosie.

[00:33:00]It's a member of the family kind of and let's give the thing some clothes and you can change the clothes for different seasons and when it wears out and it would make it look, you know, more interesting. You know, I mean, who wants it to look like a vacuum cleaner all the time? I mean, it's how to use >> it's really interesting cuz most of the people say, of course, the size the functionality. There's no much of functionality in the in the robot. They just show it like this.

[00:33:26]But there's not too much like you see the the face. I think one of the complaint people the face. But it seems the the thing that you say the clothes is maybe they saw it interesting or the shoes maybe, but What what's here?

[00:33:41]>> Yeah, let's get some uh fashion designers involved. I mean, get away from the the male engineers that, you know, get to be on their CAD system and they design the hard plastic shell. I mean, you know, hire a few more you know, women or somebody who has some fashion sense. I mean, look at how us men dress.

[00:34:02]I mean, we don't know anything. I mean, So, um you know, I see it more as a member of the family, more of a a functional thing and not like a vacuum cleaner or a snowblower. I mean, with this hard plastic shell and Like I said, in 6 months it's going to get scratched up and it's going to look awful. And uh and you need you need clothing for the flexibility like us. You know, we are very flexible human beings and you you know, and why not? It's cheap. I mean, and you can change things and you can you know, why not give it clothes? I mean, why do you who wants these naked robots running around?

[00:34:47]How obscene.

[00:34:48]Um so anyway, uh that's you know but but like I said, this this is the the game changer in my opinion.

[00:34:59]Um and uh >> I think that's interesting Bart. Uh last time we discussed that, uh but if someone wants to use this in the design, what could be limitation?

[00:35:09]If you have to share any limitation.

[00:35:14]>> You mean physically or uh or >> mechanism, yeah.

[00:35:18]>> Well, um like I said, it's 180 180° hemispherical coverage because you have two virtual centers. There's a virtual ball and socket here, a virtual ball and socket here that adds up to 180°. So this thing it's kind of slow, but um you can tilt this thing all the way down because this group of ball socket joints has plus or minus uh 45° and then this one is plus or minus 45°. So eventually this thing will Well, it's easier to demonstrate with my other little model. Quicker and wait, this guy.

[00:36:08]So you know that's about 180°.

[00:36:26]Wee.

[00:36:28]So um you know, it's just a three screws, three U-joints, three U-joints, three screws.

[00:36:37]But, the bottom half is a mirror image of the upper half.

[00:36:46]So, and then also you have Z axis because you can you can um you know, pump these things out.

[00:36:56]Oops.

[00:36:57]Jumbled.

[00:37:01]Um anyway, yeah.

[00:37:06]Oh, there we go.

[00:37:08]Yeah, so I mean, it's to get Z axis is also neat, but the fact that you can make something this small with hobby store components is really unusual. I mean, you can't do that.

[00:37:20]You can't do that with this kind design.

[00:37:27]Yeah, there there's the more advanced version.

[00:37:30]And uh you can't shrink this thing. They they try I mean, NASA JPL made one that was about 50 mm.

[00:37:41]And you know, the parts, the bearings get so teeny and stuff, and this thing lends itself to miniaturization or being built very large. So, if you want to move a big dish antenna without singularity, they call it uh uh keyhole or a gimbal lock.

[00:38:01]This is a nice way to do it with not many motors.

[00:38:05]So, um so, you know, this is this is to me the the way of the future.

[00:38:12]>> I want to steal uh this because I like your design singularity free. I think that's the Yeah, when I show the design, it's Yeah, like the wrist here. I didn't see most of the humanoid ones they use wrist something like that. They just Why do that?

[00:38:28]>> Yes.

[00:38:28]>> That's the question. And I saw this um South Korean lab and I feel like this is quite similar.

[00:38:36]>> Oh, yeah, that's one of them. That's a um a variation of the Omnires 3. But it that design that design is really a French design that's in my book Robot Wrist Actuators.

[00:38:52]That's a really old design.

[00:38:55]Uh and the first to do something like that was the French. Now, it's it's uh closely related to my Omnires 3.

[00:39:04]It's just that instead of the U joints having a common center down at the base, you know, the three of them, ours is compacted in a a different way.

[00:39:15]So, they're related. They're related, but that's that's actually a design from the '70s.

[00:39:22]Uh and you can see it in my my first book Robot Wrist Actuators. Um I don't have a copy up here, but um Anyway, uh yeah, that's I mean, it's not very compact. The Omnires 3 is so nicely compacted and rugged and stuff and but it's kinematically the same. It's just in in in their design, the U joints go about common center. In the Omnires 3, they're they're they're spaced apart and that's what makes it so compact. So, um it's kinematically the same, but packaged differently and uh structurally different.

[00:40:04]So, but you can see how something like this would be very expensive to make. It's expensive to make balls and sockets that fit perfectly and stuff like that. But as a teenager, this seemed like a really appealing appealing shape. Um And but, this is the this is the beginning that led to that led to this.

[00:40:30]That led to this.

[00:40:32]And then, that led to this.

[00:40:38]You know, and then And then, eventually eventually, it it it led to going back to the Tinker Toy.

[00:40:51]Yeah, I'm I'm going to wash this baby.

[00:40:54]Wee.

[00:40:58]Um So, so anyway, this this is where it's happening now in my opinion.

[00:41:05]>> But, are you selling now? Are you selling them? The the latest iteration.

[00:41:10]>> Oh.

[00:41:12]If someone wants Yeah, we'll sell them.

[00:41:15]Yeah, we don't have them in production yet. We're we're more looking to license the the the patents uh and the technology to other companies and uh so, we've gotten some interest. Uh And um even some of the old designs have gotten new interest because they want to use them to shoot down drones and stuff like that.

[00:41:37]We had some negotiations with a prime, you know, the those monstrous defense com- companies.

[00:41:44]But, we haven't done you know, that didn't consummate. Uh So, we're forever hopeful to license the patents and have other people put them in production. I'm more personally R&D oriented. I like R&D. I don't really want to become a manufacturer. Um We we sell prototypes, and we've done that over the decades.

[00:42:05]Um and uh like our Surrogate Four, you can buy that as a prototype, but it's not a production unit. And it's not like a car or washing machine where it's totally refined and totally rugged and everything. It's a prototype and very radical prototype. Uh but it's certainly more rugged and functional than the earlier Surrogate series, which were really hairy, complicated mechanisms. It took us a long time to get back to the simplicity of Tinker Toys and COTS, you know, commercial off-the-shelf components and and that I I was forced to adapt that to make money on these contracts cuz you just trying to reinvent the wheel, you just lose money. It's just a money pit. So the whole sacred COTS, you know, uh mantra, which I worship every day. I go to my COTS God and and uh you know, my uh McMaster-Carr catalog and I pray that I will continue to use COTS components.

[00:43:14]And uh um and that's and and that's really neat. I mean, when I read about people, you know, designing their own linear actuators and reinventing the wheel and stuff and it's like, ah, that just We have been there. And we have done that and it's it's, you know, a dead end. It is a complete dead end.

[00:43:36]Uh and you can some of those you can buy. I mean, a company called Exlar used to make, uh maybe they still do, the GS series, which was a miniature um planetary roller screw linear actuator and they're made in Minnesota and uh we used those on Surrogate 3 um 30 years ago or no, um 26 years ago.

[00:44:01]So we have evolved to to this kind of thing.

[00:44:08]To get true human flexibility. And then our in another program, I I'd be happy to show you our our new robot hand. And it has a wrist.

[00:44:18]Uh it has a wrist similar to this.

[00:44:20]>> You have the hand already?

[00:44:22]>> Yeah we have a new hand. But it's um in the Surrogate 3 video, you can see just a little bit of I mean the new Surrogate 4 video, you can see just a little bit of it. And in the spine video, you see the red cable. That's coming from the hand.

[00:44:37]So, our hand will do this.

[00:44:41]Which is important because you need to be able to do that to push and to lift off your feet and stuff. None of the the hands out there have that because they Okay, now if you you run this video from the beginning, those red cables go up to our hand.

[00:45:00]And and at some point, you'll see just a little bit of it.

[00:45:05]Um >> I think one of the interesting thing is because the movement of the the wrist. I didn't see this kind of design again in the humanoid. I'm not sure how much why the design of choice of like I didn't see it in I think in most of the humanoid design now, but I'm not sure why they didn't consider such this movement that you have to move this range of motion. Which is very intriguing to me that you managed to do this.

[00:45:35]>> Well, they can't. They can't. I mean they Okay, now you see a little bit of our new hand.

[00:45:41]That's the like the the um what do they call the Easter egg? It's the or the the it's like the little Easter egg in this video. Um but we we believe in direct drive electric hands. Um uh cables are dead end. We tried that long time ago. It screws up the wrist.

[00:46:02]So, and also and I talk about in the new book, you know, the different types of drive trains and I do matrices and and so forth and so on and um so, you know, direct drive is the way to go and that's where the energy should be directed and some people are doing it, but um that's for another episode. You know, we talk about the hand wrist, but the I guess the most the key thing is I the wrist and the hand are designed together as a system, not independently.

[00:46:38]And that's part of the problem that people have is they they do their hand and then oh, well, I need to add a wrist and then suddenly they you know, it screws up the wrist or it screws up the hand.

[00:46:50]And so, um you know, we've been at this since the '80s.

[00:46:57]Uh and I worked with a a a very experienced, very brilliant Swiss engineer named Hans Trachsler back in the '80s and he said, you know, um cables are not the way to go, you know, the direct drive electric. And he just he could see what would be coming, you know, he he he was experienced.

[00:47:20]And you do not see cable systems in industry anywhere.

[00:47:26]I mean, uh there's a reason why cuz it's not reliable and it's too complicated. So, direct drive is the way to go and that's what our new hand is.

[00:47:37]And it's similar to our we've done hands, a whole series of hands over the uh decades and we finally have a a kind of a CATS-based hand that I think is interesting. Yeah, see that the problem is >> line?

[00:47:53]>> the cables Yeah, the cables, that's um uh uh Tesla's new patent.

[00:48:01]The The problem is those cables screw up the range of motion of your wrist, which is 170° flexion extension, 70° radial ulnar deviation.

[00:48:12]And uh and first of all, that is not like a human hand.

[00:48:17]Uh the human hand is is you know, they they they see the tendons and they say, "Oh, make this tendon oriented."

[00:48:26]That's not how we're designed. Um I mean, we're partially designed that way, but we also have muscles in our hand.

[00:48:35]And I in the new book, I talk about the you know, the different types of generic hands and um so you know, I don't The videos I've seen, I I don't see any of the hands with much range of motion in the wrist because of running all these tendons through the center through a kind of a carpal They have a carpal tunnel problem.

[00:49:00]And uh they have carpal tunnel syndrome.

[00:49:03]And uh and so they need to focus on putting the motors in the palm and in the fingers and and there's challenges with that. I mean, there's difficulties with that.

[00:49:16]John Hopkins has done a version where the motors are in the knuckles.

[00:49:22]And and I think they'll DLR has done something similar to that.

[00:49:26]And the the problem is it's so expensive and so, you know, it's kind of like the Wankel engine. The Wankel engine has fewer parts, but nobody drives Wankel engines. You know, there's a a happy medium between complexity and functionality.

[00:49:43]And and that's what I mean, we're not interested in the most powerful hand.

[00:49:49]We're interested in the most practical hand.

[00:49:52]So, something that is manufacturable, something that can be maintained.

[00:49:56]I mean, if you were to ask anybody in the manufacturing world, like Elon Musk and Tesla, and ask them, you know, how many hand injuries do your employees suffer in a year? And it's probably hundreds. Uh So, hands are intrinsically fragile even when they're attached to human beings. And And so, you want to make them serviceable and modular so you can replace parts.

[00:50:23]And that's not cable systems. Cable systems are not don't lend themselves to being modular.

[00:50:29]So, um direct drive or quasi-direct drive, really, uh uh is the way to go, in my opinion. So, and the challenge is the human hand has about 350 cubic centimeters of volume.

[00:50:44]How do you put your motors in that volume? And But, having started with the wrist uh as a for a long time ago, I'm very much, you know, interested in having that wrist function.

[00:50:58]And so, um we can talk about other types of gimbals that um have these challenges.

[00:51:07]>> One thing before going to this one, because I think the direct drive, we had a discussion also Yeah, with other people in the space, and they said direct drive had a heating issue.

[00:51:18]Do you think that's a problem, the heating, if you have direct drive?

[00:51:21]You're wrong with the heating issue.

[00:51:23]>> Well, yeah. Uh yeah, I can tell you a story about our very first hand prototype.

[00:51:30]Um which I have. If you can wait a minute, I'll go grab that.

[00:51:35]>> Okay. Okay, this will take me a couple minutes to get that.

[00:51:40]>> Oh, wow.

[00:51:45]Well, I had to go down there.

[00:51:49]This is the 1980s.

[00:51:52]This is our first um prototype of a wrist wrist See the ball and socket.

[00:52:02]>> to the first one? The um the the big chunky mechanism that we saw last time.

[00:52:08]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is this is the phase one prototype that was done for NASA.

[00:52:14]And then you saw the phase two on the video.

[00:52:18]But it shows our basic abduction adduction and then the and then the the uh gripping motion.

[00:52:29]So, what you're seeing here is the wrist and one knuckle, the head knuckle, first knuckle joint.

[00:52:36]Th- this one and but you mentioned about heating.

[00:52:40]These things ran on brushless motors and this is our oh, early version of our own custom linear actuators.

[00:52:50][ __ ] that [ __ ] I mean, I I it's like I'm so we did these goddamn linear actuators for years and I can tell you from experience that it is a dead end.

[00:53:01]And but anyway, talking about heat, these things run a hot.

[00:53:05]These brushless motors, when these things were running under test it um you couldn't touch them. You know, they were so hot. And we burned out some.

[00:53:15]So, yeah.

[00:53:17]You might shake hands with this robot and get third-degree burns, but that's you know, that's part of the game. So.

[00:53:24]>> So, how to how to solve this what's all heating issue? Like now tendon has all issue, but that drive the heating. So, what what do you think that?

[00:53:34]>> Well, yeah. Um in our current hand when I run it, I don't feel the heat, but these were brushless motors. Very powerful.

[00:53:43]and you know, I had little miniature ball screws or you know, a little miniature ball screws in them and all this stuff and uh and like I said, this is from like, I don't know, '88 or something.

[00:53:58]So, um the problem I mean, the the kind of basic idea of of two linear actuators that are producing um one is producing uh yaw and the other's producing pitch.

[00:54:12]They're perpendicular motions.

[00:54:14]I mean, our design hasn't really changed that much. It's how we package it and how we um we have a new line of linear we created new linear actuators from stock components.

[00:54:26]None of this custom crap. And uh so and also you can see how this thing, you know, these are quite bulky and they're long. So, it's a it's a the the designing of hands two things. One is you know, direct drive or quasi direct drive, not in the knuckles itself, but adjacent to the knuckles.

[00:54:48]And uh because that allows for the wrist motion, you know, that allows for having wrist that can do yaw and pitch and uh but our new design has uh full human range. It's uh like I said, it's 170° flexion extension and then um 15° this way and 30° that way, so it's 55° and um so we've come a long way in in repackaging it and and I guess the wrist kinematics are much more sophisticated cuz they're they're based on this kind of thing.

[00:55:28]Um and we filed patents and all this stuff and uh so anyway, uh but to answer your question, yeah, they they can run hot. And I would actually in the our new hand, I'd like to go with brushless motors, which have a lot more power than brush type motors.

[00:55:46]Uh but they're more expensive and um you know, they're they're certainly uh I think they they just run hotter. I don't know why, but >> cooling about cooling it what kind of cooling can be used if you have to go for?

[00:56:00]>> Well, um if it's a problem and I'm not sure it is a problem, but it'd be interesting to have a you could have like, you know, a circulatory system and then and then you could have little pores and they could sweat, the robot could sweat and then it would evaporate off and so the robot you might have a little cloud of steam coming off of them.

[00:56:22]And and uh so um you know, you may have to develop a perspiration system to cool the guy like we're cooled.

[00:56:32]I mean, you see how it's heading that way. It's it's heading towards the way we're designed. You want something that performs like us.

[00:56:40]Well, we're going to have to, you know, we're going to have you know, when we we move our arms around, we're going to have things poking out the back. It's not going to be a mannequin. You know, these guys they look like mannequins cuz that's about as far as they've gotten in their thinking. They're not thinking uh how we are, but um so we may have to have some kind of a cooling system.

[00:57:03]A per- a perspiration system. You know, why not? That gets rid of uh of heat. You know, that's how why we are that way. And uh as we get in complexity, I think we're going to have more and more uh human-like things. We might have to have little porta-potties for our robots so they can get rid of their their bad battery juices or whatever they need to do.

[00:57:28]They need to do it. The robots may have to have their own own little bathrooms to tidy up in and refresh themselves.

[00:57:37]And >> The thing is also most of them the the the humanoid now they they promise that like 1X and they said that they said that they will deliver the robot to the home this year which I doubt maybe I'm wrong but they have issue with the hand it's breaking it breaking constantly.

[00:57:55]>> Well, I I don't you know, I mean good luck. I don't uh I mean some of these systems may be teleoperated and I I could maybe see that working. Um but um you know, it'll be interesting to see.

[00:58:11]I'll believe it when I see it and um I mean if I was told that I had to do this to save my life and I had a year or two I would design you know, I think Tesla does their own little miniature homes they make homes. I would design a home to be robot friendly. I design the appliances I'd have you know, Tesla washing machines Tesla toasters everything and design them for robots.

[00:58:40]And then have a quick change gripper and and not even have a human humanoid hand at first. I mean I think see I if you look at there's a here's a way to look at that nobody looks at it.

[00:58:53]Look at the uh the the amputees that have a simple it's like a it's like a double hook.

[00:59:02]It's a double hook and there's a rubber band between the two hooks and they're hinged.

[00:59:06]And and they they grip like this and then they can hook on things.

[00:59:10]They sell 30,000 of of those a year and what those handicapped people are doing is they're using their their shoulder and they're using their spine to position that simple gripper and they can do amazing things and they have for 60, 70 years, that design uh Otto Bock, all these companies sell it, is proven. It works. It [ __ ] works.

[00:59:37]So, why don't they look at something like that and change their goddamn focus to shoulders and spine and then have a simple hand? Pardon my language, but I get emotional on the subject cuz they're not looking at it in the right way. I mean, they're just looking at us and it's like, "Okay, we'll copy that."

[00:59:58]So, um that's why I'm so interested in shoulders and spines and stuff because you can get away with a much more simpler hand. And uh um and then you have something that's practical that can work and that can do things and that can unload a dishwasher and uh I mean, I've I've seen uh there was a movie made about the double amputee. He'd been injured in World War II.

[01:00:32]Uh the movie won an Oscar. I can't remember the gentleman's name. He could fire a gun and reload and shoot and amazing what the guy could tie his shoes. Amazing. So, I mean, do we even really need hands at this stage? I don't think we can control them other than through teleoperation cuz each finger has as many joints as an industrial robot arm. So, imagine trying to control five industrial robot arms together. And it's what a nightmare other than through teleoperation. No one's been able to do it yet. I mean, there's conferences on that problem.

[01:01:10]And uh so you know I I see the focus is kind of off. There There's one entrepreneur I like a lot.

[01:01:20]Uh can't remember the gentleman's name.

[01:01:22]He's uh uh billionaire.

[01:01:27]And he talks about I'm going to put this thing on wheels. And and temporarily, I'm going to, you know, uh control this thing remotely through um telemanipulation.

[01:01:38]Pardon?

[01:01:39]>> Do you remember which company was that?

[01:01:42]>> he's an Asian gentleman. I can't remember the name of his his company. It's a a startup, a new startup in Silicon Valley, I think.

[01:01:50]>> thinking.

[01:01:51]>> Uh but I like his philosophy of putting the thing on wheels. And um but I think people need to look at what works and and in some unusual areas that they're not familiar with. Like with handicap people. And and uh you know, to to get to something in the meantime that can actually work. Um the hype is unbelievable. It's like See, I go back a long time.

[01:02:20]It's like now it's like I started in the late '70s professionally.

[01:02:26]It's like the the mid to late 1980s um with the excitement and hype of robots.

[01:02:33]And it kind of restarted with Honda's Asimo.

[01:02:38]And then uh Elon Musk's and and the Tesla robot. And then Boston Dynamics and all these people. And And now with the media it you know, you have so much more access. It's no longer filtered through you know, writers and editors like Popular Science magazine and stuff like that. So, there's a lot more content out there than there used to be.

[01:03:01]Um so, anyway.

[01:03:05]>> Yeah, I think it's interesting. For me, of course, I'm excited but I think the hype part and the decision and choices in the in the design of the humanoid, that what bothers me. I understand the hype need for more investor money. But I think the design choices that the bot is triggering. I think most of people that this is not the right design choices, for example, the hand, the using the the the the shoulder, the the spine, all the things just neglected in the design.

[01:03:33]>> I see a lot of highly edited you know, scripted things. Many of them are teleoperated. I don't see I don't see I don't see things like with industrial robots where they're you know, they're welding and they're spray finishing cars. I don't see that kind of footage.

[01:03:50]I don't see footage that's unedited, that's smooth, that you know, the robot comes into the room and unloads a dishwasher. I'd love to see that or loads a dishwasher or takes things out of a sink. I'd like to see a demo like that. I mean, I see snippets of it stirring in a pot for like 3 seconds or something or handing popcorn or drinks. That goes back to um to the 13th century and the Banu Musa the Book of Ingenious Devices, which I have a copy.

[01:04:29]Um Yeah, yeah, it started in the Middle East. Hold on just a second. This uh >> Uh There it >> If I may digress slightly, the Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Devices.

[01:04:54]And this is a very famous book by Al-Jazari, which I'm probably mispronouncing his name.

[01:05:01]But um Oh.

[01:05:14]Oh.

[01:05:16]Okay.

[01:05:19]Oh, there.

[01:05:21]I don't know if you can see this.

[01:05:26]>> Can you make it a little bit The light is just the light to Can you switch to the light?

[01:05:36]>> Oh, okay. Let's see.

[01:05:37]>> Maybe.

[01:05:41]>> Well, I have this light.

[01:05:46]>> I mean less light. Less light. It's it's just a >> Oh, that's light. That's That's That's blinding it. Oh, okay.

[01:05:51]>> That's better. Yeah.

[01:05:53]>> Can you see this little guy?

[01:05:55]>> Oh, it's just hard to see from the light.

[01:05:58]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I see. I see now.

[01:06:02]It's a really old >> all started in the Middle East and they started by dispensing drinks and crap like, you know, simple things. And they're still doing that today.

[01:06:12]This is called the It's a the book of knowledge of ingenious mechanical devices. Oh, here's a nice picture.

[01:06:20]>> Oh, wow. Okay.

[01:06:22]>> Yeah.

[01:06:22]>> So, this is Can you pronounce this?

[01:06:25]>> Uh >> I been >> Al-Jazari. Yeah, it's Arabic name, I think.

[01:06:31]Al-Jazari. Yeah, it's Arabic name.

[01:06:32]Al-Jazari. Al-Jazari. Al-Jazari.

[01:06:36]Ibn Al-Jazari.

[01:06:38]Yeah.

[01:06:39]>> Very good. Better than I can.

[01:06:42]Yeah, so this is where it all started.

[01:06:45]So, don't, you know, be nice to the people in the Middle East cuz all our robots come from them.

[01:06:50]>> it in the elevator. Thank you. I'll have to change it up.

[01:06:52]>> Oh, yeah. No, this is It all started in that area thousands of thousands of years ago in the I don't know, the 14th and 13th century and these designs have been built. They work.

[01:07:06]But I'm getting back the I you know, the idea is that dispensing drinks and all that stuff has been going on forever.

[01:07:12]And And so when I see a robot handing someone a a bag of popcorn, I don't get too excited. You know, it's like, "Okay, that's nice."

[01:07:21]But um uh you know, the focus you know, robotics has moved around the world.

[01:07:26]It's I think a lot of it is in Asia and um and it's you know, maybe coming back to the United States and there's some interesting startups out there that you haven't even heard of yet, but and and and I kind of like the idea of wheels and something like more like an AGV, you know, um automated ground vehicle.

[01:07:49]Like they use at work and they work, you know, they work really well and it's like if we mounted our robot on top of that, you probably don't need hands, you know, you can just you know, use your shoulder, use your spine and >> Yeah.

[01:08:05]>> And so anyway, >> I wanted to show you this I think I'm not sure how I think you're familiar with that.

[01:08:11]>> Oh, yeah. Japanese Karakuri Karakuri, yeah, yeah.

[01:08:16]But what's interesting about that that's little known is that is probably based on designs by that were brought to Japan by Jesuit missionaries because there's something about 200 years earlier than that called the monk and that was made in um in Europe. So the predecessor There's actually a predecessor to this guy um called the monk.

[01:08:40]Uh but they made hundreds of these little Karakuri. This is I think I've seen this video. He's a Karakuri master and uh he makes these things out of wood. But there's actually uh a predecessor to it done in in Europe.

[01:08:55]Uh I think it's German. It's called the monk.

[01:08:58]And he he has a similar mechanism, a cam uh, operated mechanism.

[01:09:04]And uh So, anyway.

[01:09:10]Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that guy.

[01:09:12]Well, this is what helped me solve Leonardo's robot cart.

[01:09:16]>> Really? Okay.

[01:09:17]>> looked at that. Yeah, and I saw the I saw the cams. And then I looked back at Leonardo and I could see the cams. In fact, I have that right here.

[01:09:30]>> Oh god.

[01:09:33]Oh.

[01:09:35]>> Yeah. So, there's the cams. See the cams?

[01:09:39]>> Wow.

[01:09:39]>> Oh, this thing is there.

[01:09:46]>> Oh.

[01:09:48]Awesome.

[01:09:49]>> Can you explain what it does?

[01:09:52]>> Well, this is the the Leonardo's cart.

[01:09:55]Oh, this is for another show. Let's do this time. We'll go into Leonardo another time.

[01:10:01]>> Sneak peek. Let's play it with a those I'm curious.

[01:10:05]>> I'll prep up for Leonardo. We'll do a Leonardo show. I have a bunch of a bunch of Leonardo things here and >> Okay.

[01:10:12]>> So, we'll do that another time.

[01:10:16]Um >> I I Well, let's leave it for another one. Yes. Okay, then.

[01:10:20]Okay.

[01:10:22]Uh I think you Do you want to say something? I I I think you If you want to say something or you want to end it here, um let me know.

[01:10:29]>> Oh, I I don't know. I think I've talked enough. I've babbled enough. Um but uh I could see endless shows. I mean, we could do this every month for the next 12 years. I mean, we could do one on Leonardo.

[01:10:42]We could do one on the hand.

[01:10:45]>> As long as you want, I'm happy to record. If you want to do this uh Yeah, let's do the one the Leonardo cuz it it would be interesting.

[01:10:52]>> Yeah, if you want to do a Leonardo show, we can do a Leonardo show, um next time.

[01:10:59]>> Leonardo's knight [music] was built from wood, leather, and metal, and powered by clever system of pulleys and cables.

[01:11:06]Movements of different limbs were linked together. When one arm moved up, the other moved down, creating a human-like behavior. To figure out how he could recreate motion using levers and pulleys, Leonardo would compare human skeletons side by side with mechanical designs. By comparing bones to levers and muscles to pulleys, Leonardo created detailed drawings of a mechanical knight, a mechanical bird, and even a mechanical lion. By understanding the muscles and how the body was put together, he could create machines that gave an illusion of life. The mechanical knight has been reconstructed in 2002 for a [music] BBC documentary. Robotic expert Mark Rosheim argued that >> Well, anyway, Anthrobotics talks about what we talked about today.

[01:11:53]It's kind of my journey designing robots in the 1960s and 70s, and and it it shows the continuous growth of my work towards the current humanoid robots that I'm doing.

[01:12:09]And I show the different models that we some of which we saw here, and and and I use my sketches kind of like I did in my last book, Leonardo's Lost Robots. Instead of Leonardo, I have my sketches.

[01:12:23]And then I have my models and the test data, and I I go through the versions of of our robot surrogate series from surrogate 1 2 3 to 4.

[01:12:35]And then I have a chapter on hands, on humanoid hands, and why I think they should be designed the way we designed them. And and I have some there's some test data on all these things, and but primarily it's kind of a picture book of of uh of uh my designs and um I talk about some of the people I worked with uh Cliff Hess, who's a legendary NASA designer and uh and uh this is one of my tattered manuscripts, but we go into the you know, the you know, my sketches and my robots and you know, like I have a you know, the lot of unpublished photos of the Surrogate series. Um this is Surrogate 2.

[01:13:29]And uh so there's hundreds and hundreds of photos. That's to me, I think in pictures. I I don't I'm not much of a writer.

[01:13:37]Uh but I uh um really like to show the illustrations and I have this unbroken record of notebooks going back to this, you know, my teenage years and and even earlier than that and I show the development of what I see anthropoids anthropomorphic robots, what I see them evolving to.

[01:14:01]Um I I see things the stuff now. It's like I said, it's it's Asimov repackaged. Uh instead of a matte finish beige body, it's shiny gray or black and Oh, well, great. You know, have a cookie. And and um so you know, I I'm trying to push the ball forward and and books are traditional way to do that and um I'm that's what I'm trying to do, but your podcast helps, too. So >> I think yeah, everyone enjoy your yeah, the evolution of the mechanism. I think the from the complex to simple ones.

[01:14:43]And I I again, I think it's it's a different way of thinking and I think you have been doing this for I think now 60 years now it's just almost 60 years you've been designing and it's great so you have seen a lot and I and I yeah I'm very happy and I I'm excited for the Leonardo episode I think that'll be a good one for you to talk about Leonardo.

[01:15:06]>> Oh yeah no I I think uh I think that'd be really interesting cuz I I don't often have an opportunity to talk at length about you know his process and and what's come down to us and I worked with a really great scholar Carlo Pedretti at UCLA and um really and I've met some really wonderful people along the line and there's tragedies and you know weird things happen lights go off during presentations and so it's you know it's voodoo magic Marwa voodoo magic.

[01:15:45]>> Mark it was really good talking to you again and I again we're excited about the book and I think you have a lot of knowledge and the goal is to get this pick your brains to to me and the audience to know more about how you think about designing mechanism and sharing the history for Leonardo and I think that would be cool to deep dive in that.

[01:16:04]>> I will look forward to discoursing on that subject.