Danny Robins Explores Ramsgate’s Underworld

[00:00:00]If we can now find a historical connection, it makes it more tangible and if anything, it makes it more real for the people that have had those experiences.

[00:00:09]>> He was coming in a part of the bedroom where there used to be a door, not the door that is there now.

[00:00:14]>> If it was perceived as a legitimate haunting in the house, why can't it be perceived as a legitimate spirit attachment? I never cried about that before, but I feel sad for her.

[00:00:33]Hello. Welcome to a very special video case update on the last of our uncanny summer specials. Little biter. What a case it is. If you've not heard it yet, go and listen to the podcast episode right now. This will make a lot more sense if you know the story. But let's just have a reminder, shall we? From our witness, Rebecca.

[00:00:54]>> She was in bed. She hear she heard the door go and a little girl came into the room. She came to the end of the bed and she had a bucket and spade and she come alongside my sister and bit her from her hands up to her face.

[00:01:07]>> She sees a girl walk into her bedroom.

[00:01:10]>> She hears her as well. Yeah. She's like chatting and she comes into the room >> and the girl bites her.

[00:01:15]>> Yeah.

[00:01:17]>> That's pretty bloody eerie.

[00:01:19]>> Terrifying. She was terrified. It really It really scared her.

[00:01:24]Such a powerful case this one. Lots of new evidence coming your way in this episode. Also, some new theories from our experts. So, let's meet them again.

[00:01:34]Dr. Kieran O'Keefe and Dr. Kate Cheryl.

[00:01:38]Kate, this was quite a case, wasn't it, that we had here. There was so much going on in this one.

[00:01:43]>> Oh, absolutely. It's jam-packed. It's hard to keep up with. There's shared dreams, there's ghosts, there's poltergeists, there's the ghosty dog.

[00:01:51]Big fan of that one. And then this this twist at the end. It's got everything.

[00:01:55]>> Oh, it's amazing. Suddenly these things felt like they came together, didn't they? You had that idea that the little girl and the dog may not be disconnected. They might be connected, but a horribly poignant story that we found.

[00:02:07]>> It is. It's It's one of those ones that really lingers with you long afterwards because of that human aspect. I think so often we hear these stories about ghosts and ghouls and we think of them as just little shapes with sheets over their head. But as soon as you have that human interest of, oh no, these are these could be real people, real young people that endured immense suffering.

[00:02:29]>> Well, it's an interesting concept, isn't it? We talk about ghosts as being potentially trauma replaying itself. You know, if people are coming back after death to seek answers or to have closure, then that idea of this little girl finding Rebecca and and having that connection with her was kind of quite a beautiful one really and one that was immensely touching. Kieran, you talk about headscratching moments often those moments that put you as a skeptic to the test that that that challenge you to come up with explanations. Did this case have those? Yeah, I felt like the case was a bit of a test to be honest. It started off um you know with some easy questions if I can put it that way. You know, we're dealing with dream imagery, but it did start to ramp up, you know, and there were lots of elements of this case where you really had to think very carefully about what was going on. Even to the extent where they started to see a figure, they started to have the ghostly dog experiences, trying to explain those particular points became a little bit more difficult. But then when you had the appearance of the visitor >> and the phenomena around the visitor, >> such [laughter] a sinister title, by the way, what what a what a horrible eerie name for something, the visitor.

[00:03:50]>> It is a very very odd name. It would not be my choice, that's for sure. the sort of name that really prays on your mind, but the appearance of the visitor together with some of the objects, you know, the the glass exploding. Yes. Some real headscratching moments. It was a real test for me as a skeptic. You >> you had a potential theory on what might be causing things. You talked about those tunnels that are underneath Ramsgate. incredible network that started off as an underground railway, grew into this place where people protected themselves from the bombs falling during the Blitz in the Second World War. You told me to go down and look into those tunnels and it was an amazing experience, I've got to say. I mean, but partly because it was such a hot, scorching summer's day and going down those subterranean tunnels was blissfully cold, but also they they were bloody chilling. They were frightening.

[00:04:43]You're wandering around these long, seemingly neverending tunnels. We heard a bit of this in the podcast episode.

[00:04:50]Let's just see a bit more of this. This This is me going down to those tunnels under Ramscape.

[00:04:58]Right. So, we're getting into the dark bits of the tunnel now. Oh my goodness.

[00:05:03]Look at that. That is so misty.

[00:05:06]>> So, that is part of the airway shelter then. That's not the original railway tunnels.

[00:05:09]>> The original airway shelter. A >> lot of frightened people down these tunnels.

[00:05:12]>> Yeah. a lot of tension, um, fear, all those sort of things. There's nearly a thousand people in here in 1940.

[00:05:19]>> It's interesting, isn't it? Think about all the people sitting underneath where your house is.

[00:05:24]>> Yeah.

[00:05:25]>> Who were hiding from these bombs landing on the houses?

[00:05:28]>> Terrified.

[00:05:29]>> Shall we venture further into the darkness?

[00:05:30]>> We can go into the darkness. Let's do it.

[00:05:34]>> So, we're talking about ghost stories.

[00:05:37]Are there ghost stories associated with the tunnels?

[00:05:40]>> There are a few. Yeah, we've heard whistling as we've gone down on tours.

[00:05:44]People up here have seen a soldier figure in the tunnel. You've got to imagine, I mean, in here there's nearly a thousand people sort of leaving. And we think there's around about 530 children that weren't evacuated.

[00:05:58]>> We've got a child in our case.

[00:06:00]>> Rebecca saw a little girl in her house.

[00:06:04]>> It's strange. There's a tale we have and what we know is a fact that two children were killed in a bombing raid. Uh one was a year old and one was four. Um and they they lived in a house in Holik Dane Road, but their mother was out in the town at the time.

[00:06:20]>> So where is where is that then in relation to >> It's not too far. It's not too far from where you are.

[00:06:24]>> Yeah. I think I had a friend that lived on Holland Dane Road.

[00:06:27]>> So it's not too far at all. The sister of the mother died and her two children died in one bomb. two terrified little children that are killed and mommy's not there. You know, could it be that they're looking for mommy?

[00:06:43]>> So, so do we feel we could be underneath Rebecca's house then?

[00:06:48]>> Yeah, >> it's very very close. It's got to be in this area somewhere.

[00:06:54]>> It's up there, Rebecca.

[00:06:56]>> I don't know how I feel about that.

[00:06:59]>> It's so interesting, isn't it? When we think about what makes a haunting. Is it a building? Is it people? Is it the land itself? Here you've got your house up there, but you've got all of this underneath it as well. And this was full of people.

[00:07:10]>> Yeah. Just right underneath us.

[00:07:13]>> It's almost like a mirror image. You've got you guys living up there in your house. Then all of this underneath there. This this kind of underworld.

[00:07:21]>> Yeah. People living in darkness underneath it.

[00:07:24]>> If we're looking for a potential suspect for who that little girl or who the man is, then there's not only the people in the house. with all the people under it.

[00:07:32]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:35][snorts] >> M the plot thickens.

[00:07:38]>> Have you ever had a spooky experience yourself here?

[00:07:40]>> Um I've actually walked in the tunnel and it's been at night cuz I sometimes have to stay overnight here and I've heard my name called.

[00:07:50]>> Why you just hear a voice?

[00:07:51]>> Steve.

[00:07:51]>> Just says Steve.

[00:07:52]>> Steve. Steve.

[00:07:54]>> It felt like it was about 20 yards away.

[00:07:57]Somebody just saying my name is Steve.

[00:07:59]And I thought, >> "Okay, we What was that?"

[00:08:02]>> Well, we put it down to Eric. There's uh we have a mannequin of an air raid warden and his name's Eric. We've always called him Eric. He looks a bit like my granddad, a really spooky chap, but hats come off the hangers where we store the hats for people to wear. They just fall off. Um lights flicker, things like that. So, we always blame Eric. Should we carry around?

[00:08:23]>> Yeah, let's go. Okay.

[00:08:26]Stay.

[00:08:28]Steve, >> did you hear that? Steve, >> no. What was that?

[00:08:35]>> Kate, it's such an interesting idea, isn't it, that when we're looking for causes of a haunting, we think about the house. We think about who's lived in the house. We maybe don't think about what's actually underneath that house.

[00:08:46]>> Yeah, absolutely. Ramsgate isn't some new fresh field that's never been moaned. There are century, there are millennia of history beneath that house.

[00:08:56]Because Ram's Gates uh sits on the aisle of Thanet which was quite significant uh in the Roman Empire. It had a lot of Roman settlements. It had villas. It had farms. It had a lot of burial sites. I'm not suggesting that the dog was perhaps this great Roman hound guardian, but let's not dismiss it. Why not? That sounds fun.

[00:09:16]>> [laughter] >> But the street itself where Rebecca lived is within the area where a lot of Roman clifftop burials and settlements trace back to. And when the Victorian housing was being built and when any extensions have been made, any little digs, there's just constant evidence of these centuries of settlements and quite prominent uh Roman settlements there.

[00:09:40]So, who's who's to say that perhaps it's these Romans could have had an influence over these strange happenings? Who's to say that Victorians didn't? When you get this many layers of history, it's like trying to pick apart a wet book, you can't. It all just becomes one.

[00:09:58]>> Such an image uh that thinking about history as a wet book. Uh Kieran, um what did you think in the end about those tunnels? Could that be a factor in this haunting?

[00:10:08]>> Yes, I think it could. Um, you know, we hear from Rebecca that she didn't necessarily know about the tunnels, but this is something that, uh, you know, would have been known in that community and maybe by the rest of her family. And and even if she didn't know about the tunnels, it still doesn't discount the possibility that that could be a really good environmental suspect in what's going on. You talked uh about the idea of those underground tunnels being like a church organ and that that's a fascinating idea. The idea of acoustics and the way they can impact on us. Talk us through that. Yeah. So people may not know but there are various cathedrals around the country where they have church organ pipes that are infrasonic.

[00:10:49]Infrasound is low frequency sound below 20 hertz. We can't hear it but we're affected by it. And these long church organ pipes they basically produce infrasound which because the sound physically affects us is almost adds a sense of profoundity when they are used within church organ music. But the same principle a long pipe you know can exist with a tunnel that is effectively a long pipe and all you need is air blowing into that pipe and it causing infrasound and therefore anywhere anybody that's around that particular area could be experiencing infrasound which can affect you you know physically physiologically but also then become a trigger for you misinterpreting other things.

[00:11:37]>> We are of course looking for potential suspects here. They could be environmental like the tunnels. They could be people. This is a house full of people. We've heard from a few of them now. We heard from Charlotte, the younger sister. We heard from Rebecca, of course. We are now going to hear from their mom, Sue. [snorts] I met her there in the studio in Ramsgate. Let's hear her addition to this testimony.

[00:12:03]>> Have you ever seen the little girl?

[00:12:05]>> No, I don't think so. Have you Have you seen the man?

[00:12:09]>> I've seen the man. Well, I think I've seen the man. You know, I was upstairs and I fell asleep and then something woke me up and I looked to my left and there was a man coming through the door with a tray in his hand.

[00:12:26]>> When is this?

[00:12:28]>> Quite recently. Gone. A couple of days ago.

[00:12:30]>> A couple of days ago.

[00:12:32]>> Yes, it was. Cuz I don't believe in any of that. Well, I do, but I don't. If that makes sense. But a couple of days ago, you saw the man.

[00:12:38]>> Yeah.

[00:12:39]>> What happened?

[00:12:40]>> I was sitting at home and suddenly something woke me up and I looked to my left and I saw a man coming in holding a tray. I know what he had on because it struck me. He had white hair. I think he had a mustache. I just came in a tray.

[00:12:57]But the funny thing is he was coming in a part of the bedroom where there used to be a door, not the door that is there now. And so he is walking through where that door used to be.

[00:13:07]>> Yeah. Where it used to be.

[00:13:10]>> Kate Sue is interesting, isn't she? She She's not a child at the time. You know, we're going to read certain things into children having experiences. She's above all of that. She's the adult in the house, and she is having experiences, too.

[00:13:24]>> Absolutely. I find it really interesting when we're able to hear from um the parents in haunting situations because they're not only experiencing the phenomena themselves, but quite often they're having to really step up to the mark and say to their kids, "Go back to bed. There's not a Victorian chimney sweep in the back garden, knowing full well that there is cuz they've seen them."

[00:13:46]>> Her experience is a little bit different to theirs. this man that she sees. Odd little details like carrying a tray.

[00:13:54]Does that give us any clues as to the identity of the visitor?

[00:13:57]>> I think it's an interesting one. My first thought was, oh, it's a spectral waiter offering her a cup of tea after a long day. Not all ghosts, not all spirits that we see or claim to see are going to be terrifying monsters. There are far more reports of people saying, "I saw a man in gardening clothes walk through my bedroom." than people saying, "Oh, there was a Roman legion wandering through my living room." They're the more exciting ones, but the most mundane is the most frequent. And I I think this house is old. It's had multiple uses.

[00:14:32]There's had there's been so much stuff happening underground as well. It you could cherrypick a million different people that it could be, but thankfully, I don't think this particular manifestation is a particularly violent one. though more men with trays are perfectly welcome from the spirit world, especially if they've got a drink and a snack on them.

[00:14:51]>> A ghost that brings us a cup of tea is a lovely idea. We're always looking for answers in these cases. Did we find one at the end? This newspaper article that we found detailing a child who'd had this horrible situation where they'd been left with a dog, basically behaving like a dog who had been on that very street in Ramsgate. Do do you feel that leads us anywhere closer to an answer for this case?

[00:15:17]>> No, I don't think so. Uh, you know, I I've talked about this before. It's almost like a a join the dots scenario.

[00:15:25]We are so [sighs and gasps] kind of invested in trying to find a real answer to the hauntings because otherwise these are just kind of unidentified figures associated with uh the experiences. If we can now find a historical connection, it makes it more tangible and if anything, it makes it more real for the people that have had those experiences, but we're dealing with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of history. I'm not surprised that we found some sort of connection on that street.

[00:15:59]Not necessarily the house, but we found some sort of connection on that street, but it doesn't mean that it's paranormal.

[00:16:05]>> We're going to just hear Rebecca's take on this now.

[00:16:10]So, I've just moved out with my daughter and my friend's doing a girls night with wine and some other girls coming around.

[00:16:16]So, we have um we all go to house and she's booked a medium and the lady's giving the readings upstairs and we would go up one at a time and she would give us a personal reading. And as I go up, I walk into the room and she says, "Oh, a little girl and a dog have just run in behind you." I say, [music] "Oh, okay." And then she said that you've just moved house, haven't you? They really like the mom that you are. to your little girl and they've decided to come with you.

[00:16:42]>> How could she know this?

[00:16:43]>> She wouldn't. It's just so specific. And the fact that she said it was a little Scotty dog and the skeleton that we found was a little little dog as well.

[00:16:50]The fact that she put a little girl and a dog together and said that they followed me into the room.

[00:16:55]>> Did that feel nice or or a bit creepy?

[00:16:58]>> I got goosebumps. Creepy. But I felt sad for them because in my mom's house, everyone had grown up and there was no one there anymore. I think that maybe they wanted to come where there was a family.

[00:17:09]>> The idea of a little child feeling lost is is a horrible one that your whole job is about defending against that, protecting children, making them feel safe, >> keeping them with their mom.

[00:17:19]>> The idea of a little girl experiencing that after death of being trapped in some space where she is alone for all time.

[00:17:28]>> Makes me emotional.

[00:17:29]>> It's a horrible idea, isn't it?

[00:17:30]>> It is. Yeah, I feel for her.

[00:17:32]Maybe she sees in you.

[00:17:35]>> You're going to make me cry.

[00:17:36]>> But maybe she sees in you that the mom that she didn't have.

[00:17:39]>> Yeah, >> that's so silly to cry. [laughter] I never cried about that before. But I feel sad for her, Kieran. Hearing that, it's a moment that sends a shiver down your spine. And it feels like it makes this lovely sense, doesn't it? this little girl following Rebecca around, seeing her as a good mom. But I know you've got very strong feelings on mediums. What do you feel hearing this?

[00:18:08]>> Yeah, I think we've got to be very careful of how mediums operate. Not to cast any aspertions that we may be dealing with somebody fraudulent. I'm not saying that. I'm saying where does the information come from? We place great significance on this event because it ties everything together almost, but for me it doesn't make it any more evidential. Kate, what are your thoughts here hearing that testimony from Rebecca?

[00:18:30]>> Well, I I got to admit I am biased. I do like a good medium.

[00:18:35]>> I'm I'm a big fan of spiritualist history, spiritualist mediums, and I do think there's something in it. But I also think with this, it's it must be so reassuring for Rebecca to not only have confirmation that, you know, she's a good mom, all of these nice things, and that it's recognized by an external force, but also that everything that happened to her regarding that child and that dog when she was growing up, it wasn't something to be scared of. Are you then open, and I'm going to put you on the spot here, are you open to the idea that there was actually a ghost little girl and a ghost dog following Rebecca around and that this particular woman, this medium, could see that?

[00:19:17]>> I Why not? Why not? I've I've read centuries of of cases of people saying that they experienced certain phenomena in a household and then when they moved, when they got older, it followed them.

[00:19:31]Naturally, a a lot of these claims are rather more frightening and a bit more, oh, I've moved into a new build and suddenly the kitchen hates me. But in this case, it does seem to just be following in that nice tradition of a spirit refuses to move on for whatever reason, adheres itself to something familiar, something kind, and then follows. And maybe as the years go by, that spirit will get weaker and ultimately move on as as people go and develop their own lives. But I I see no reason to believe that if it was perceived as a legitimate haunting in the house, why can't it be perceived as a legitimate spirit attachment afterwards? We don't suddenly stop believing in ghosts when we leave our front door. So, I I I think there's something in it. And I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing either. Who wouldn't want a ghost protector dog following them? [laughter] If they were giving them out, I'd be queuing up. I'd be first. I >> I would sign up for that. And especially that one you talked about in the episode, hairy Jack. I'd love to have hairy Jack following me around.

[00:20:32][laughter] >> Yeah, it would bring a certain confusing comfort I feel to know that. Don't worry, I'm fine walking home at night.

[00:20:40]Harry Jack's got my back. [laughter] >> Look, thank you so much to both Dr. Kate Cheryl and Dr. Kieran O'Keefe there.

[00:20:50]>> All right, that's all we have time for.

[00:20:51]Thanks for spending your time with us.

[00:20:52]This is a case I feel that will be up there with all of the classics in the Uncanny back catalog. Such a strange story. We'll be talking about it for a long time to come. We'll be back in the autumn with a new uncanny series. Get in touch. [email protected].

[00:21:09]If you've got a story to tell, send it in. We're making the series right now.

[00:21:13]You could be an episode. But until then, stay spooky.