To the Moon and Back!

[00:00:16]Hello and welcome to the to the moon impact live stream. Um, exactly gosh 57 years and four minutes ago, Neil Armstrong took the first steps of our species onto another world. And we're here tonight to celebrate that and talk talk not just about the moon as we call it, but moons in the solar system, dark skies, astronomer and residence program, all sorts of great stuff. My name is Kevin Schindler and I'm the historian and public information officer at Low Observatory and I'm pleased to host this program tonight brought to you courtesy of Grand Canyon Conservancy, Grand Canyon National Park, and Low Observatory. And for the next hour, we're going to be talking about all sorts of celestial things. And if you have any questions, um, just enter those in the chat and as time permits, we'll, um, answer those. Um tonight I'm just so excited tonight because one of the things we're talk gonna talk about is this residency program at the Grand Canyon that continues to expand um astronomer and residence though there is also an artist and residence program and other residency programs that are starting but tonight um we have two past astronomer residents astronomers residents and the current astronomer residents for another four or five days.

[00:01:37]Um, so let me introduce our guest tonight. Uh, Laura May Laura May Abbron is a scientist and multid-disciplinary artist. She hosts and co-produces the monthly show All Space Considered at Griffith Observatory and conducts research on interstellar comets and potential Earth impacting bodies. In 2023, she was the astronomer residence at Grand Canyon. Welcome, Laura May.

[00:02:02]It's great to see you again.

[00:02:04]>> Hello, Kevin. Good to see you again.

[00:02:06]Thank you for having me.

[00:02:07]>> Oh, it's always nice. Any excuse for us to get together and chat is a great one, >> right? It's the astronomer and residence community.

[00:02:14]>> It is. And and the newest member of that community, um she's not even a recent graduate. She's still doing it for a few more days. Um Dr. Logan Pierce. Um Dr. Pierce is a post-doal research fellow at the University of Michigan, having earned her PhD in astronomy just south of us at the University of Arizona in 2024. She studies stars and planets using sophisticated technology and like Lori May is a renaissance woman with quite a wide variety of interests. As I mentioned, she's a current astronomer and resident of the Grand Canyon with just a few days left to go. Um so before we start um talking about the moon and all things else, what's it been like?

[00:02:58]How's your how's your experience been, Logan?

[00:03:00]>> Oh man, it's been great. Um you said, as you said, I do have a wide variety of interests. One of those is national parks. Uh I'm a huge buff uh uh for exp trying to explore and get to all of the national parks in the US. I've been to 44 so far out of 63.

[00:03:17]>> So I'm getting up there. Uh and my other one of my other major interests is um public outreach talks to on astronomy to the public. And so this residency was just a slam dunk for something that I would want to do. Uh and it's been amazing. Um, I love being able to just live at the Grand Canyon and get to know the rangers and meet people from all over and talk, answer all of their uh, interesting and ver wide variety of questions. Some of them are challenging uh, and show people the night sky and yeah, it's just been a dream >> and you use all sides of your brain when you're up there and doing that.

[00:03:58]>> True. And Laura May can you can comment on this also. I mean if you visited the Grand Canyon it's it's inspiring. You leave exhilarated and and thoughtful and um >> but living there is lifech changing.

[00:04:16]>> It it's you go away a different person >> and I it's been a couple years for me and I still feel that way. I went to the canyon a lot before that but it was a whole different experience. And Laura May, I think you had that similar type of experience.

[00:04:31]>> Yes. Uh and you know, I had I I mean, I'm from France, so you know, we part of the reason I moved to the US was also these extraordinary places. We have plenty of beautiful places in Europe. Uh but the US, it's kind of on another level when you see places like the Grand Canyon. And I had come in 96 or 97 with my family uh from France. I remember it was incredibly hot, which is a reminder for everyone not to go down into the canyon right now if if you're planning on hiking down there to be extremely careful if you do so. Uh but yeah, I remember it being incredible and you know, at the time when I was visiting um the canyon was smoked out. There was a fire and you couldn't see too much of it, but I still remember it very vividly. And then after I moved to Los Angeles in 2017, you know, I kept coming back. Uh, I came almost every year since I lived there and it astounds me when I meet people in Los Angeles who have not been to the Grand Canyon. I'm like, it's eight hours away. What are you doing?

[00:05:32]Like, it's one of the most marvelous places in the world. And then now I add on, you should go during a new moon. Uh, it's obviously beautiful at any time. In fact, I'm actually very partial to the moonlight in a nonlight polluted place.

[00:05:48]Uh, that was something I kind of discovered. uh that was very remarkable and that I was not expecting to discover. But yes, the canyon changes you especially I've only ever lived in capital cities and and again it's a double whammy because it's both this extraordinary wonder of nature and the sky that all three of us have you know made part of our careers on and that allows you to kind of connect to the things you're actually researching and to the work you do and the things you've devoted your life to. And it's a place where that little treasure has been maintained, which is pretty pretty rare unfortunately nowadays, but we're lucky it's there.

[00:06:28]>> Oh, yeah. And it it reminds me that the first astronomer residence, Tyler Nordrren, he's the one that coined the term half the park is after dark.

[00:06:36]>> And it it truly is, you know, during the daytime, >> you gaze down layer upon layer of rock and you're looking back in time.

[00:06:45]>> Yeah. Um the same thing at night time when it darkens if there's no moon in the sky. You look up and it's it's a time machine. Um and you know you were talking about how spectacular it is in the dark but also in >> I feel the same way because there's it's dark up there. I mean >> you know I mean here you know in Flagstaff where Low Observatory is located is dark. the first international dark sky city. This is the 25th anniversary of that. And you can walk outside of a restaurant in downtown Flagstaff. And now there's the Milky Way. It's stunning. 80% of Americans live in a place where you can't see it.

[00:07:22]>> You guys are very lucky. Uh and I was very impressed. I actually a hilarious story. I fell I tripped at Low Observatory I think in the parking lot because I was like, "Wow, this is amazing. It's so dark and wow." and I fell and like cut myself and I was like the sign of a good a good night's sky is injury.

[00:07:41]>> Huh. I don't I don't know if we want that reputation but you know our our buddy Dave Biker has a similar thing but he wasn't gazing up. He was in a hurry.

[00:07:49]>> Yeah.

[00:07:50]>> Diff on a curb and went down years ago.

[00:07:53]>> Oh no. [laughter] >> But he wasn't looking up at the time.

[00:07:56]>> Uh yeah. One of the one of the cool things about um hosting constellation tours is, you know, it is that the vast majority of Americans and people uh abroad as well um don't have access to the Milky Way where they live or anywhere nearby where they live. And um some of my favorite moments here have been when people come up to me, like one lady came up to me and told me that um she basically cried when I showed her where the center of the galaxy was. And just like the amount of people that this is their very first experience encountering the Milky Way.

[00:08:32]>> Yeah.

[00:08:33]>> It's just been incredible.

[00:08:34]>> I've seen that, you know, I think we've all had that experience with people who have never seen it before and it you really get reconnected with the universe a little bit. I had one lady who, you know, it was clear night. She came up and said, "You know, I thought it was going to be clear tonight. There's that dang cloud up there." And I said, "That's that's the Milky Way." And she was just flabbergasted.

[00:08:57]>> Um, that's what those skies are like up there. And yet like you're saying Laura May when there's a full moon out to me it's special because like we're we're celebrating the moon and one of the things is you know the anniversary of the first moon landing proved moon landing >> and if you go to a place like Mazer Point >> and when the moon is full and you those moon rays shine down into the canyon and you can see the very trail where the astronauts hike down as part of their training when we went there. And it just connects it connects it all together.

[00:09:34]The human exploration, the the awe and wonder of it, looking back in time, whether you're looking up or down, it's it's cool to do that. So, yeah, going to the canyon is it's more than just looking at it. It's a feel. It's experience.

[00:09:49]>> Yeah. Uh it really is. And there are canyons on the moon, as I'm sure you know. Uh there's two in particular.

[00:09:56]There's Val Schroinger and Val Plank.

[00:09:59]Uh, and it's kind of fun. I I like to contrast them with the moon because or with the Earth's canyon because obviously the Grand Canyon took millions of years to form, but Val Plank and Val Schroinger formed as kind of this uh big impact and then ejecta and they're on the they're on the other side, the far side of the moon, and they formed in just a couple of seconds. And it's so funny to think of that difference and that even though you know we are also made of the same stuff the moon obviously you know came about from that large collision with a Mars-sized body called Thea and then you know we we have the a little bit of material from the moon and it has material from us and yet we have so many differences between us and that's kind of one of the the neat things. It also seems that the from simulations I've seen the moon seems to have formed in just a couple possibly a couple of hours is some of the estimates which just blows my mind. Uh but you know Yeah.

[00:10:58]>> So Laura May tomorrow NASA calls you they say Laura May would you like to be on a mission to explore the far side of the moon?

[00:11:06]>> 100% yes please let me. Logan, >> no. I'm sorry. I I don't have a desire to be an astronaut. [laughter] >> That's okay.

[00:11:17]>> Yeah. How about you?

[00:11:19]>> Oh, I I I would I think >> Yeah.

[00:11:22]>> I think if it was if it was a mission to Mars or a long one, that would be a different thing. But to the moon, like a couple weeks worth of of travel, frequent flyer miles, I it would be hard not to, >> right? I would probably be getting motion sickness the whole way.

[00:11:40]>> But, you know, that's a sacrifice we make. [laughter] >> I would too.

[00:11:45]>> Yep.

[00:11:45]>> Yeah. Maybe you're convincing me if I if it was short, like a couple weeks.

[00:11:49]>> You might have to train for a while.

[00:11:52]>> Train. Although, I will say, you know, >> it's a good excuse to get into shape.

[00:11:55]>> Good shape. And you know, some of the training they had, I was realizing that the Aremis uh 2 mission, they had such cool training because they're not just training on, of course, going to the moon and the systems and everything.

[00:12:07]They were training on photography, for example, you know, how to take really cool pictures of the moon and, you know, take pictures during the eclipse that they saw and things like that. And man, I was like, "Oh, that's so cool." they get to kind of I think in the way that all the Grand Canyon astronomers have artistry in their background or you know writing and art and etc. you know the astronauts are also people who are multidisciplinary and have just great skills and they want to cultivate that in these astronauts so that they can do as much as possible and Kevin I'm sure you must know about that I only found out recently that the I guess the Apollo 17 mission was the only one that had geologist on it >> yeah it seems like the previous ones um it was much harder to trace back so you know they collected some rocks etc but it seems like it was a little harder to do science with them because they couldn't completely pinpoint exactly where they had gotten them, etc. Whereas, I guess with the geologists that went um it was much more, you know, specific and really solid science, which is, >> you know, to to be fair to those astronauts, they did, it's remarkable the training they did. I mean, they got essentially like a master's degrees in geology, >> you know, crash courses. Um, but you're right. I mean, even with that, you have somebody who's been doing geology his entire career and getting him him up there and is, you know, is a natural.

[00:13:33]Um, and so, you know, he was him getting up there was really fortunate to have a scientist actually walk there. I mean, the other astronauts certainly did well and communicated well with what we were doing, but yeah, having having somebody who has that in his blood was a was a different thing. Yeah, >> there's a we have a question and I I don't know if uh Kevin you mentioned it or somebody else mentioned it. We are currently I think still clouded out which is why we're not >> Yeah, right. I and I and I I keep meaning to mention this and we get on to another cool topic but we were planning originally to do some viewing tonight.

[00:14:12]Um, but we're in the middle of monsoon season in northern Arizona and the [clears throat] weather gods have said you guys are just going to talk tonight and not look through telescopes.

[00:14:23]>> This is my life as a as a observational astronomer. Yes, >> this is my life going to a telescope and having clouds.

[00:14:30]>> And that's yeah, that's one of the one of the things about doing astronomy. You know, we've tried for years to complain, but turns out nobody listens.

[00:14:40]>> Yeah. you know that cloud seating technology that we're developing clearly >> turn on the fan and blow them away please >> right now maybe we should plan to do this again on September 19th which is the uh international observe the moon night is just moon night but in September is observe the moon night so you know >> well you know what you know what makes it fun though is um I'm a gl a half a glass half full sort of guy and so so we won't viewing, but we can also talk about things beyond just our moon >> because there's a lot of moons out there. And we were talking before we went live. Scientists are finding so many moons around um especially the gas giant Saturn and and Jupiter in particular and Saturn now has more than 200 that are known and that number is going to keep escalating. you know, you get better technology, observing techniques, and this is what happens.

[00:15:40]>> Yeah. 274 moon now, um, moons around Saturn, 101 around Jupiter. And >> I had no idea there were that many, >> right? And 891, uh, in total in the solar system, which means we'll make we'll break a thousand, I guess, probably in the next couple years. But I suppose we should tell the public that a lot of them are moonletits. They are not like we we really lucked out guys like we've got a great moon. It's the OG kind of you know it's really big. It's >> it's also the biggest moon in the solar system in terms of ratio to its host mass.

[00:16:14]>> Oh interesting.

[00:16:17]>> The mass to of the earth compared to the moon is >> the biggest like the >> Yeah, it's the biggest moon in that respect. It's not the biggest moon.

[00:16:26]Absolutely. But in relation to its host mass, >> not even Pluto and Kiron. I would have thought that they >> Well, you know, I tend to think of Pluto and Karen, they're not really actually a planet moon system. It's more like a it's more like a moon, a binary planet situation. So, they're so close in mass that they um instead of like Karen orbiting Pluto, they kind of orbit the same center of mass, which is outside of Pluto. So they're kind of like a seessaw going around. And so we might call them a binary planet instead of a moon planet system.

[00:16:58]>> And in fact has other things. It doesn't just have that. Well, I think it has 10 moons maybe or around that number.

[00:17:05]>> Oh, I thought it was more like five, but I could >> It might be closer to five.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah, Pluto has five identified moons right now.

[00:17:11]>> Yeah. [snorts] >> Um, we've got a couple questions by the way. Uh, Judy from Concord and Case asks my own my old stomping ground. I lived in Charlotte for a couple years.

[00:17:22]She asks, "Are there places that do dark skies tour? And if so, how long ahead would I need to plan in advance?" Now, I'm not sure if she means over there or here in uh or at the Grand Canyon. Um but you know, the astronomer in residence obviously is there to show you the dark sky. So, right now, Logan, you're doing the constellation tours, right?

[00:17:44]>> Right. Um, but if you're interested in um places closer to where you live, um you can go to uh the international dark sky uh what's it called now? Dark skies international uh their website darks sky.org uh has a searchable map for certified dark sky places um all over the world. Uh and so you can use that to try to identify like dark sky certified uh parks and regions and sanctuaries.

[00:18:14]Um, and you can also check um, so I was looking, so I live in Michigan and I was looking the other day uh, what's in Michigan and there were three um, certified international dark skate parks, but then the state of Michigan also had its own separate certification that included even more areas than was on dark skies.org. So you can check your local government as well. And part of part of generally getting a designation like for Dark Sky International for instance is is um that the community has taken action um to to use appropriate lighting that that darkens the sky. Um but also doing education. So most of those communities or parks or whatever they are, that's part of what they do. They do star parties and such. And they're also astronomy clubs. Um it's easy to do a search for astronomy clubs in your area and they um quite often will do public events and you can just get on their website. So if you do a search for you know astronomy clubs in my area um you can find that pretty easily.

[00:19:15]>> Yeah.

[00:19:15]>> Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say so Los Angeles Astronomical Society, if anyone is joining from uh Southern California, uh we are now, by the way, most likely the largest astronomical society in the US, other than of course the American Astronomical Society, which is a little different. Uh but the largest astronomy club, I guess, >> am I correct?

[00:19:34]>> Uh and so we have a dark sky property.

[00:19:37]So, we actually for members, so anyone can show up to star parties and things like that, but for members, we actually give them access to this super cool place we have that's about an hour and a half uh north of Los Angeles, and it's a pretty good sky. I think it's I want to say it's a border 4. I know that's not, you know, the best of the best, but California, Los Angeles, >> Laura May, you introduced the term, you got to define it.

[00:20:00]>> Yes, that's right. So, we do we do rate the night skies. uh if you're a little unfamiliar with our our night skies. So, one fantastic, great. You're seeing the Milky Way in all its glory. Nine bad cities. Terrible. Not Flagstaff, of course. Um but yeah, you you want to aim for and you can look up the dark sky map. So, you can actually pinpoint kind of where to find one of those dark skies nearest you. Uh and generally, as soon as you get out of a city, you are going to be much better off. Um so, you know.

[00:20:32]Yeah. So apparently California no longer has bortal ones. Uh I found this out the other day. Uh which is tragic. And every year on Earth, light pollution goes up on average by 10%. I couldn't believe it when I saw that number.

[00:20:47]>> I went and checked it >> and I was like, that must be an exaggeration. And it was true. And honestly, even I go to Iceland every year and I've seen the light pollution get worse there. And keep in mind, this is a an island with 300,000 people in the middle of the Atlantic. Um, and it really is kind of incredible to see the rise in light pollution and people not really, I guess, caring about this issue or not knowing. I don't think it's that people don't care. I think it's that they just don't know a lot of the time.

[00:21:16]>> Yeah.

[00:21:16]>> And and that's really it's really changed the dark sky preservation because it started with astronomers who wanted to limit the amount of artificial light so they can do their work, see the stars and stuff better. But now we know that artificial light has a negative impact on life on Earth, plants, animals, including us humans.

[00:21:37]>> And so it's it's gone beyond just those pesky astronomers who want dark skies.

[00:21:42][laughter] Plus, there's, you know, there's there's something about dark skies. Even if you're not into astronomy per se, standing under a dark sky is inspiring.

[00:21:54]And um I think we're we're at a place in in society right now, we see this at the observatory a lot where people are a little tired of staring at their phones and technology. They want to reconnect >> with the universe around them. It's like when 911 happened and um holy cow, if you wanted to go and find a bicycle or a camping material, camping equipment, good luck because people started going back outside.

[00:22:22]>> Really? I didn't know that.

[00:22:24]>> I went to um we were getting my grand sweetie a her first bike and went to Walmart. There were no bikes. I've never seen that.

[00:22:34]>> Wow.

[00:22:34]>> You know, and you know, all we wanted was a little pink. They had nothing. And it was because everybody was turning to the outdoors like I think we're seeing that with looking at the night sky.

[00:22:45]>> Yeah. There's someone's asking uh Oh, sorry.

[00:22:48]>> Oh, I was going to bring up that question. So um there was a question about are there any border one sites in the United States? I mean not in the continental United States I don't think right but are there any in Alaska or I >> I mean I guess Hawaii might on top of Monaca might be because we do our research there. Um I expect it's a bortal one. I I'll be honest, I'm usually there during the full moon because when we observe asteroids, uh you know, we're doing infrared and stuff and so Yeah. And so I very >> I always observe during the full moon because I don't it doesn't matter to me what the moon phases. So I've never been there when there's no moon. Yeah.

[00:23:27]>> Well, that's great though. You can probably get time easier than those who want who need really dark skies.

[00:23:33]>> Yes.

[00:23:34]>> I wouldn't say easier. It's just they they Yeah. they >> they spread it they spread it in ways that is you know easier for everyone but yeah so it's it is possible that there are no longer I would be surprised if you know anywhere had bortal one because yeah it really is anywhere in the world at this point you know I was thinking gosh it's I was looking at some data earlier that we got from an observatory in Namibia and I was thinking gosh you know it's so tragic obviously Africa doesn't have a lot of electrification it's part of the projects that are ongoing. But at the same time, I was thinking, man, I guess maybe it's one of the few places on Earth now, unless you're in the middle of an ocean where there's no light pollution in some parts of Africa, uh, where some of the more rural parts away from cities perhaps, you know, but it's, yeah, this is a this is really a diminishing resource. And, uh, we spoke about this together a little earlier. We had some pretty I guess daunting news a couple days ago from the FCC. And this is something that has rallied the entire uh astronomy community, which is that the FCC approved an application that was made by a company called Reflect Orbital. They are a California startup. Their plan is to send a bunch of mirrors in space and reflect sunlight down on Earth during nighttime. I know that sounds insane.

[00:24:59]And the other day we spoke about it on All Space Considered and compared it honestly to a Death Star because I can't really think of anything else that you know would so endanger wildlife, the environment, our way of life, uh our health, just >> so you know they're like oh we're going to power solar farms at night and etc. And that's cool. But if for anyone who's ever sh, you know, used a flashlight to shine it on something, you cannot make a straight beam down onto a thing, that's not how this works. And so you are looking at a potential end of the night sky if they actually manage this. So they are going to launch this uh soon, a test one. The FCC says they don't have the ability to regulate this. Hopefully this will create more legislation and awareness.

[00:25:45]>> It's going to have to. Yeah.

[00:25:46]>> Yeah. It seems most people aren't even aware of it. But then it you know it gets to a point that and that goes back to the question as as more countries are exploring space who who regulates it.

[00:25:58]>> Yeah. Who get who should regulate those?

[00:26:00]>> Yeah. And and this sort of thing is going to accelerate >> those discussions on a global scale >> especially because space is uh and there are so there are sections in the international space treaty on the moon.

[00:26:13]Certain things that you cannot do on the moon. Um, but space is not just a resource, it's also an environment, right? Um, and that is something that I think is forgotten by all of this is that you can't just put anything you want willy-nilly. And as you said, Kevin, there's a kind of lack of, uh, frontiers and, you know, national boundaries when you put stuff up in the sky. And I almost thought, well, if they say no in the US, they'll just go to some other country and get it approved and launch it from there or, you know, something like that. And that's pretty terrifying.

[00:26:45]But lots of good things in space to preserve.

[00:26:47]>> And you know, you know something though with even though there's that news that has come out recently on the other hand, light pollution is something that um we can all improve. We can all help to improve um you know and it and it's something that in the long run it's generally you save money. Um you get you know shielded light that pointed downward. And in Flagstaff, part of the so-called Flagstaff solution is using amber lights, cooler colors, cooler like a amber color versus white. And you still get the light you need. You shine it where you need it. Um, and it's a cooler color and it dramatically um can increase, you know, the darkness and it's and it's not it's not sacrificing safety.

[00:27:38]That was what I was going to bring up was that, you know, there is this >> sense that more that decreasing the amount of light is going to decrease safety. And they actually there there's a lot of cases where the inverse is actually true. these really bright lights um that shine in all directions and are bluer um they actually create a lot of glare and they create a lot of harsh shadows uh and where people can so you can um not actually actually not see the area around you as effectively uh because of the harsh shadows and the glare and this is um so right so there's a it might feel a little counterintuitive but designing um less light and light for dark skies actually can increase the safety and the efficiency of the and effectiveness of the whites.

[00:28:31]>> Yeah. In fact, when you drive the contrast, I remember seeing some videos that were showing, you know, your eyes are better off when you actually have slightly less lighting on the road. You see any animal that might cross it much better than if you have so much glare on the road. As you point out, it's the same as if you have an intruder somewhere around. Um, so yeah, more light. You need better light and you need light on timers. That is kind of the better option that you know doesn't get spo and yeah, it's a huge money save as well.

[00:29:01]>> And light going where it's needed and not >> where it's supposed to. Yeah.

[00:29:05]>> Not where it's supposed to and not where it's not needed. You know, >> I have an image that I show in my talk of a really bright street light and um you cannot see until I point to it that there's a man standing right below the street light because >> the light is so the light is not doing what it's design supposed to do and polluting the sky at the same time.

[00:29:28]So, >> and everybody's had a neighbor that their light light shines in your window at night.

[00:29:37]Do you need it on at 2 o'clock in the morning?

[00:29:40]>> Also, it floors me. I'm going to be honest. In, you know, in Europe, we have shutters on our windows. And it's something that floored me when I moved here is that my quality of sleep is much lesser is just not as good in the US because people don't even if you have blackout curtains, you know, light comes in and comes down. Um, and it's just not as effective as electric shutters that just kind of shut out. And especially, you know, we're astronomers. Sometimes we have observation runs at night and we're not at, you know, those facilities. We're at home. So you're you're not benefiting from those really good, you know, nighttime sleep and rest. And it really shocked me in the US how little preservation just of even darkness inside our own homes. Um, yeah, was happening. So work in progress. Uh, we had a a question earlier on the age of the moon compared to the age of the canyon as we descend. That's cool.

[00:30:35]>> You know, I think maybe we would take this other question first and then we'll get back to the movie.

[00:30:39]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:30:40]>> Because there's a new one and this is really interesting. Um Charlotte's been experiencing birds colliding with um with a few well-lit buildings downtown.

[00:30:50]They're making attempts to turn out the lights, but I'm not aware of any efforts to modifying any infrastructure. Any suggestion how to find start modifying on a community scale? those efforts almost always start at the grassroots level.

[00:31:04]>> Um, and there, you know, in the past it started with astronomy clubs, but that's just because that's who was interested.

[00:31:12]But this this is a a big problem. I mean, classically sea turtles, you know, a a sea turtle will lay their eggs in the sand, go back to the ocean, and when the little turtles hatch, they it's it's in their system to know to go toward light, the moonlight reflecting off the water. Well, if there's a street light, >> they think that's where they're supposed to go. And there's so many examples of them crossing the road, they get run over or just descate or starve because they're going in the wrong direction.

[00:31:43]And there's so many examples of that.

[00:31:45]Bird migration patterns, um, plant plants, um, the leaves changing color not at the at the regular time. There's so many examples of how life is being negatively impacted. Yeah. Um if I can uh um if I can answer this question directly. Uh so a lot of the work has to start from the grassroots and it has to include um advocacy to the local governments and it basically requires things like light lighting ordinance changes uh which are difficult and it takes time because it's it's bureaucracy and the wheels are slow. Um and so uh it often takes a a larger sustained effort than like one or two people can accomplish. Um and so there uh one of the an amazing resource is um on the Flagstaff Dark Skies uh website because the city of Flagstaff kind of has been a leader in in doing this and making these ordinance changes and they have guidelines for how to um uh address like city lighting ordinances and stuff. Um, you can also find resources at the darkskies.org that I mentioned earlier. Um, and then you can also look and see if there is a local dark skies advocacy group. Um, there's uh so I'm at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and uh there is a Michigan dark skies um society that is run out of uh Ann Arbor that I I joined recently. Um and so you they're specifically targeting an or Ann Arbor city ordinances. So, um maybe something similar exists in your area.

[00:33:24]>> And also it it really pays to show up honestly even in LA where a place where obviously no one would think oh you know yeah we're not getting a dark sky here but you know some of us have been showing up consistently to meetings.

[00:33:36]They had a park planning uh actually while I was at the Grand Canyon last year there was a they were having a series of talks on uh developing the parks and kind of modernizing them etc. And I showed up to a couple of them.

[00:33:49]There was actually another person there that I didn't know who was talking about uh you know light light concerns as well. And you know they take those concerns and they note them down. And when you contact people even going to your city council meeting come with a little bit of information that you can find online on darks sky.org. Um they do have tools on there to help you. And it really is just people you know advocating uh individually in their community. That is how it gets done. the other astronomer in residence who's not here tonight um who is uh Stephen Steven Hmel you know he managed to get a city I believe near the Grand Canyon I forget what that place is called uh >> or valley >> Cameron it was Cameron >> and he managed to get them to he spoke to them and etc and managed to actually have them implement uh some solutions uh so it's it really isn't impossible this isn't some unsolvable thing it really just takes one people in communities to get involved >> and it's and it it certainly takes um patience. Um but I think I think there's more and more awareness as we've talked about. I know I know for Flagstaff when they started pushing this it was the first I mean Flagstaff had the world's first outdoor lightning ordinance which was 1958 and so really so much of so much of dark sky movement is centered here. Um >> and then and then in 2001 the first the first international dark sky city recognition and um and it it took a lot of effort and still does because the technology changes um and and the lighting industry you know sometimes it's been a combative thing. I mean the lighting industry understandably they're selling a product and um >> and energy companies too.

[00:35:40]>> Yeah. But but push back from energy companies.

[00:35:43]>> Yes.

[00:35:44]>> Crazy.

[00:35:44]>> We've seen um when several years ago there was a conference in Flagstaff where you know folks on both sides got together and it was very civil and there was really good conversation. It you know it's not trying to get rid of what the other person is doing just tried to moderate and understand and like so many things in life you know open dialogue and communication it goes a long ways.

[00:36:10]But the cost-saving measure seems to also honestly I mean look the bottom line for most people is the the tax money and you know people it's it's a saving and I think when you with that argument communities will listen to you because they want >> it's a win >> and it is cheaper now >> really is a win-win.

[00:36:27]>> Yeah.

[00:36:28]>> You know that all the the fixtures and different types of lights and stuff. I mean, when this first became a movement, it there weren't a lot of options, but now you go to Home Depot or Lowe's or whatever and you can find um lighting that that um goes by the standard. So, it's getting easier to do.

[00:36:49]It's kind of like recycling to me. It if it's easy, people will do it. If not, then maybe not so much. It's getting easier and more cost effective.

[00:36:59]>> Yep. I was talking to um Raider Lane here who's uh the other day who's a ranger, the night sky ranger here at Grand Canyon and he said that >> the dark sky ranger >> the dark sky the famous dark sky ranger um he he was telling me about how when they um so when Eltovar, which is the historic hotel, one of the historic hotels here, uh had these like really beautiful historic lights uh on the porch um and then they were replaced in the 50s or something with some kind of like kind of ugly, very not dark sky friendly lighting. And in the their ef efforts for um refurbishing that lighting, they actually restored the old lighting and made it dark sky friendly.

[00:37:43]So speaking about win-win, not only was it, you know, becoming dark sky friendly, more energy efficient, but it was also like increasing the historic preservation of this hotel as well, which is just a really cool success story uh of this kind of thing.

[00:37:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. And it it's a movement that there, you know, the problem is getting worse, but the movement is getting better or more widespread. So there's a lot of hope with it, I think.

[00:38:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

[00:38:11]>> We can keep talking about dark skies, but let's get back to the moon a little bit.

[00:38:14]>> Back to the moon.

[00:38:16]>> We address that that question. I'm curious about the age of the moon compared to the age of the canyon as we descend.

[00:38:23]And I love that because like we were talking before, there's a lot of ways of comparing like you were talking before about um you know, you're standing in the canyon and there are canyons on the moon.

[00:38:36]>> Um you know, you can be hiking down into the canyon and there's a deposit. It was a tidal deposit. So it was formed when the tide, you know, um changed, you know, deposited sediment. And what causes the tides or what's the major force for tides? The moon. So you can be walking on this rock that it's kind of originated with that thing up there. And so there's a lot of really neat connections. And I like that same thing with, you know, with comparing the the strat of the Grand Canyon, which goes back, you know, more than a billion years at the bottom to to, I don't know, 245 million or so at the top, something like that. It's like two It's like 27.

[00:39:18]It's like 280.

[00:39:20]>> 280. Yeah.

[00:39:21]>> At the time.

[00:39:22]>> And I mean, the moon formed, you know, roughly about a hundred million years after the Earth formed. So, it's they're both very similar.

[00:39:32]>> Four and a half billion years old or so.

[00:39:34]>> Yeah. So, you know, we were and it is such a such a huge part of Earth's development and life's development.

[00:39:41]Stabilizes our tilt, stabilizes our orbit. Um yeah, super important. Kids for some reason always ask what would happen if the moon exploded tomorrow. Um and that is not that is not good. That is not something we want. Um >> yeah.

[00:39:56]>> So in fact I mean ironically there was a so I worked on an asteroid called YR4 uh last year I think it was. So it was a potential earth impactor that was discovered in 2024 and then there was the potential that it might impact the moon which yes astronomers are all yay that's so exciting. Hey, we get to observe something incredible. You should not wish for this because it sends a lot of debris towards us. So, in the best of cases, cool. We get extraordinary meteor showers, but in the worst of cases, it impacts a lot of satellites and things like that. So, not not really something uh something we want. We don't want big impacts on the moon. That's uh Yeah.

[00:40:35]>> Yeah. Well, you know, we and we keep talking about the moon and what we know about it, but we look at other planets.

[00:40:44]Most of the other planets in our solar system have at least a have at least two moons.

[00:40:50]>> Yep.

[00:40:50]>> Mercury and Venus don't, but everybody else does.

[00:40:54]>> Pluto has five. And then >> and some of the some of the other dwarf planets have moons like Aris has a little moon. Uh I think >> Oh, yeah. That's right.

[00:41:02]>> I think Jamea has one or two. I forget.

[00:41:06]>> But yeah, some of the other dwarf planets out in the Kyper belt um also have moons.

[00:41:10]>> What What are you guys What are you guys' favorite moon?

[00:41:16]>> There's so many to choose from.

[00:41:18]>> Yeah. Well, so I I gotta I gotta hold a torch for Titan. Titan is a moon of Saturn. Um it is insanely cool because it has a water ice bedrock. So like like silicut rock in the Grand Canyon and on Earth, that's how water behaves on Titan. Um and Titan has it's cold. It's so cold that it has a methane cycle in the same way that the Earth has a water cycle. So Titan has lakes and rivers made of methane and ethane. And the methane and ethane evaporate and it collects into clouds and it rains out just like water does here on Earth. And uh uh you know we have we see on Earth there are some microbes some microbial life that actually breathes methane. So it's not too much of a stretch to think something could live possibly live on Titan. Um and Titan has been explored by uh the Cassini spacecraft and it launched a a lander called Hygens lander that actually landed um not where the lakes are. It landed where the the dunes are, but um it's like sand dunes. But I got to hold a torch for Titan. It's just so freaking cool.

[00:42:31]>> How about you or me?

[00:42:33]>> Uh I think I'm going to go with Pan.

[00:42:35]I've always loved So Pan is a moon. It's the innermost moon of Saturn and it is shaped like a ravioli or torillini.

[00:42:43]>> It's just so beautiful. Uh and yeah, it's it lives in this little gap in the A-ring. Uh it's the innermost. And I have to give also honorary credit to Apotus because it is part of 2001 space odyssey. So there's a lot of Saturn honestly.

[00:43:01]>> Uh Saturn has >> great moons. How about you Kevin?

[00:43:06]>> See like a lot of things in life I have many favorites >> because I mean our moon >> is probably at the top because of the cultural connections.

[00:43:15]>> Yeah. Um, and it's my favorite thing to look at because every night you look at it, depending on the shadows and everything, there's so much detail. But then there's Pluto's moon, which was discovered by a friend of mine, Jim Christie, lives back east.

[00:43:32]>> And then I think Iuspotus, as you mentioned, is the two-toned, which is really cool. But but then there's Phobos and Deemos of Mars, which um In Goliver's travels, he suggested there were two moons of Mars and it was just a guess, but still it's got that kind of cultural connection. And it was and they were discovered the same year in 1877 as the supposed canals of Mars.

[00:44:03]>> And so there's >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That look at How can you not like that? It's so cute.

[00:44:10]>> It's so cool.

[00:44:10]>> It just makes me hungry looking at it.

[00:44:14]>> [laughter] >> Can I uh can I also just um >> throw some love?

[00:44:20]>> What did you say, Sarah?

[00:44:22]>> Oh, so I was also gonna um throw some love. Speaking of uh moons of Saturn and possible s uh locations where life could exist, I got to throw out for Europa and Enceladus.

[00:44:34]Uh they Europa is a moon of Jupiter and Enceladus is a moon of Saturn. And both of them have like a rocky core and a shell of ice. And then they have a liquid water ocean underneath. And so we think that they're some of the the best candidates for locations for life on elsewhere in the solar system if it exists.

[00:44:57]>> These are some of the likeliest candidates. And um there's actually a spacecraft on route to Europa right now called Europa Clipper. And um one of the things it's going to do is so there's little there's little cracks in the ice and there's like plumes of water that shoot out through these cracks. And so Europa Clipper is going to fly through the plumes and sample them and study the wa the liquid water ocean underneath the ice.

[00:45:21]>> It's also worth worth mentioning that Juice is on the way there too. European Space Agency.

[00:45:25]>> Did you say more about Juice? I don't actually know too much. Oh, by the way, is supposed to arrive in 2030.

[00:45:31]>> 30. Yes. So Juice about Juice. Yeah, Juice is arriving in 2031. Uh, it is the Jupiter Icy Moons mission. Uh, it was funny, I tell you. I went to meetings for it like 15 years ago. And one of the PIs, she was like, "Oh, I hate that name. I think we're going to change it."

[00:45:48]And I guess it never got changed.

[00:45:50]>> I'm sorry. It's a bad name.

[00:45:51]>> Once people start using it.

[00:45:53]>> I like that name. I don't know.

[00:45:54]>> Okay. All right.

[00:45:55]>> Retro. It's retro.

[00:45:57]>> Yeah. Uh but yeah, you know, it's awesome that they will both be there at the same time. And in fact, I forget if it was um Juicer Clipper, but they used they turned on their navigation cameras and they were able to wait, was it Juicer Clipper? I think so. And they were able to get images of ThreeI Atlas, uh this interstellar comet I work on. Um so a lot of different missions, you know, that are out there. And that is cool because also it shows, you know, there's going to be coordination. I think I asked uh the PI from Clipper some time ago and they do have plans to potentially, you know, obviously uh Clipper is mostly for Europa, but I think Juice has a couple of different plans for the different moons and so they may coordinate some of the observations, which is just having two missions there. Man, we are we're going to be really lucky in the 2030s.

[00:46:49]>> Yeah. You know, I I I have to say there's one more moon that we didn't mention that um if we're gonna put our sci-fi hat on, we have to talk about my miss.

[00:46:57]>> I was gonna bring up my miss.

[00:47:01]>> Yes, it look. It's the Death Star. You star. Yeah, >> I'll get a picture up.

[00:47:05]>> And and I guess we've ignored Uranus and Neptune moons. Um B some of them are based on Shakespeare characters.

[00:47:13]>> Um but they're not as that as well known, I guess. But there's still we learn so much from moons. I mean from determining masses of planets in the old days that was a critical way of determining mass. Um there's so much we can learn from them.

[00:47:29]>> Yeah.

[00:47:30]>> The dust star moon.

[00:47:34]>> Isn't that wild? Honestly >> uh there is I will say there is a very interesting moon uh around Neptune which is called Triton. Uh Triton has a retrograde orbit. Uh, we think it might be a remnant from moons long ago that were potentially destroyed and then that one kind of uh >> I thought Triton was >> I thought Triton was believed to be a captured Kyper belt object.

[00:47:57]>> I've read different things about Triton.

[00:47:59]Okay.

[00:48:00]>> It's it's that was what I I some recent studies I read were pointing out that potentially its origin was a leftover.

[00:48:07]It might also be capture. Um, and one of the a very interesting recent study on Uranus that was investigating its tilt, uh, it orbits on its side through the solar system. So, it's rolling on its side. It's kind of weird. It's tilted.

[00:48:23]So, it it's tilted at 90 degrees and it we think some of the recent studies from Paris Observatory mentioned that it could have been a very large moon in the past that as it kind of pulled away from it, pulled it into a resonance and pulled it sideways. And I thought that was kind of a neat neat theory that was a pretty good explanation. So moons are important.

[00:48:44]>> I'm glad you mentioned Uranus and its rings because um the rings of Uranus were discovered. Next year will be the 50th anniversary.

[00:48:53]>> Oh wow.

[00:48:53]>> And and they were discovered like um Pluto's atmosphere was proven based on occultations. I'm watching you know the planet pass in front of a distant star.

[00:49:06]And in the case of Uranus, there there were both groundbased observations as well as observations on the Kyper Airborne Observatory, you know, a telescope inside of a plane, the predecessor of of Sophia.

[00:49:20]>> Sophia >> um which is now on display down in Tucson because it's it's been decommissioned.

[00:49:27]>> Yeah. But um the way they discovered it was you know they were you know observing this occultation of of um the star by Uranus and you know expect the light from the star to blink out but it was more of a um slow change you know a fading and then later it kind of faded back on essentially and it was because um I mean there there were in that case Pluto, the the gradual change was because of atmosphere. With Uranus's rings, there was like this blinking. It you could see the light then not see the light not. And it was it was being blocked by rings.

[00:50:09]>> And so >> 50 years ago, >> my gosh, how time flies.

[00:50:15]>> Before we move on from talking about different types of rings, can I put a plug out for um or different types of moons, can I put a plug out for exomoons really fast?

[00:50:23]>> Oh, yeah. So, uh, you know, planets around other stars, we they're called exoplanets or extra solar planets. Uh, we now know of over 6,000 exoplanets that have been officially confirmed, and the number grows every day, but we haven't yet detected any moons around exoplanets yet, but that is, I think, is coming very soon. Um, so there's a really cool uh system. Let me get it. I have a picture. Let me find it.

[00:50:53]um called PDS70.

[00:50:55]So here's uh PDS70. So what you're looking at here is a combination of uh a bunch of different instruments imaged from a bunch of different instruments, but this is a really young star. The star has been subtracted in the middle. Um so you can't see the star. Uh but there's a ring of debris around the outside and there's two little baby planets that are just now forming.

[00:51:22]um they're they're brand they're like infant planets and they're PDS7B and PDS7C.

[00:51:28]Uh and when you look specifically in just the cold dust which is the stuff that moons form out of, you see, let me get it up. You see uh that ring of material and PDS7B has disappeared but C is is glowing bright there in that cavity of that ring. And because that's that's because sea has what we call a circumlanetary disc. So this is a debris uh disc of material around the young baby planet. And so this is the stuff that moons can form out of. So we're seeing here a baby planet and possibly the precursors to moons forming around this planet. Um and so that's really cool and exciting. Uh, lots of people I work with are actively engaged in hunting for exomoons and so stay tuned because um I think we're actually gonna find some soon.

[00:52:24]>> Also, there's a great bedtime story. I have it somewhere. It's called Goodn Night Exomoon. Someone >> an astronomical parody. It's incredible.

[00:52:33]I recommend buying.

[00:52:35]>> I need to get that for my colleague who is heavily engaged in the Exomoon hunt.

[00:52:39][laughter] And you know this is a it's a great example to me of how we keep learning so much in astronomy. You know the technology gets better. Our ability to analyze data gets better.

[00:52:52]>> You know there's some my background at one time was was in paleontology and collecting fossils is pretty much you still go out and dig. Um it hasn't changed all that much but but you look at telescopes how they've changed and the and using things like adaptive optics um which you're Yeah, maybe we can talk about that a little bit. Um but it's the technology we keep advancing and you can look at the same area of the sky >> and find completely new things because we because the advance of the technology.

[00:53:24]>> Yeah.

[00:53:24]>> Yeah.

[00:53:25]>> And clever new clever techniques for how to look for things too to imagine. Let's talk about your Yeah. Talk about your research a little bit with adaptive optics, what that is and >> Oh, sure. I'll try to do it really quickly because uh I don't want to waste too much or not spend too much time on it.

[00:53:41]>> Well, we have seven minutes. So, >> I'm going to go quicker. I'll go quicker than that. So, uh basically um I work in a field called direct imaging where we are we're trying to make these images like the one I just showed you of a of a planet close to a a really bright star.

[00:53:57]So, planets are faint and stars are bright. And so this is really really hard to do but it's the next frontier of exoplanet science basically. Um and we've been able to do it for something like 30ish 20 or 30 planets that we've been able to directly image. And so what Kevin is referring to adaptive optics basically you know when you look at stars and they twinkle um it's very cool it's very pretty. Uh it's bad for science. And so what I do basically the the type of technology that I work with is you um basically measure the amount of twinkle or distortion that's happening and you use a special mirror to correct out that distortion and make it uh not twinkle anymore. Make it like it as if you were in space.

[00:54:40]>> Where's the atmosphere? So basically I like to say I dinkle stars.

[00:54:45]>> That's that's a that's a really nice description. We we by the way we have a question on since our moon is slowly drifting away from earth how far will it need to drift before it stops affecting things like our tides and tectonic plates. So you would need billions of years. It is not it you know it's drifting by about one >> an inch and a half a year. Yeah.

[00:55:06]>> Yeah. Uh but you know we will lose total solar eclipses in a couple million years though. That'll be very sad but end.

[00:55:14]>> Yeah.

[00:55:15]>> And what a great this is so cool. like we live in such a great time. Um we have a north star that's really close to actual north and it's fairly bright.

[00:55:24]>> It's not always the case. And then we live in a time when we have this moon.

[00:55:30]It's 400 times smaller than the sun, but it's also 400 times closer.

[00:55:35]>> So they appear the same in the sky. But as moon slowly moves away an inch and a half a year, eventually it's gonna appear smaller and smaller till it won't cover the sun and we will no longer have total solar eclipses. But we live in a time when we have that. It's so cool >> very exciting.

[00:55:54]>> Yeah. Any last question guys that you want to get in? I think we've got about four minutes left. So we couldn't get any observing unfortunately. Clouds >> classic, >> you know, classic classic astronomy. to talk about research and moons of the solar system and beyond. Pretty cool stuff.

[00:56:14]>> Yeah.

[00:56:15]>> So, Logan, what are you going to do?

[00:56:17]What are you going to do um for the last few days?

[00:56:21]Um, so tomorrow you and I are gonna go hike down the South Kabad Trail a little ways to a place where um there's a famous photo of Neil Armstrong when he was uh training in the Grand Canyon for um geology. Uh and then Kevin is going to give a talk about the Apollo astronaut training in the Grand Canyon.

[00:56:43]And I'm really excited for that because I'm a huge fan of the Apollo missions.

[00:56:48]Um, and then, um, my last two talks are about dark skies and then I'll start heading home.

[00:56:55]>> Nice. That's a good way to go out.

[00:56:58]>> We have Laura May, when are you coming back?

[00:57:01]>> Listen, I would like better.

[00:57:03]>> I'd like to come back and finish some paintings in September that I started.

[00:57:07]Um, so that would be good. This is a moon painting, by the way, that I made for the Artemis missions. Uh so yeah hopefully maybe in September I can come back uh during the art uh festival uh if not later in the year at some point. By the way we have one uh one more question.

[00:57:24]>> One last question. Why is the moon away from >> away from the earth? So that's because of tidal friction. So the same way that there's kind of this energy exchange. So even though we get tides, the moon also technically gets tides from us. And so it absorbs a little bit of the that friction and that is what kind of pushes it away. Um so we have an influence on the moon. We also that's also why we technically were tidily locked. We only see one face of it. Um and the moon it's a beautiful symbiotic relationship just like in biology.

[00:57:57]>> Yeah. If we didn't have the moon it would be so different on Earth. Mhm.

[00:58:03]Well, you know, I'd like to imagine if we were like one of the other planets that has even if we just had four or five moons, you know, you know, it's the cultural part of it, the moonrise and the romance, even though Logan tries to remove romance and get rid of twinkling stars and everything, but beyond that, but but to have multiple moons in the sky or >> or or if we were a planet, not that life could necessarily exist on a planet with multip stars, but to have two sunrises and two sunsets.

[00:58:36]>> Yeah, I really enjoy I really enjoy sci-fi stories that try to imagine what civilizations might look like um or experience on these type of different solar system setups. Uh I think it's really cool to just imagine how their, you know, years might look and what how their culture might respond to what they see in the sky. I love I love fiction like that >> for all mankind. But also, I don't know if you guys have watched it, but it's got >> it's got some great narratives on I feel it's very realistic some of it of like labor issues on Mars and what would happen when we go to the moon and it really actually brings about I think some of the accurate political problems that we may have when we go to the moon uh and that may not be fully addressed by the international space treaty even though again there's a there's a lot of uh there is already some legal framework but potentially never enough legal framework for us little little creatures.

[00:59:33]>> The Expanse also The Expanse also.

[00:59:35]>> Yeah, I need to watch The Expanse also deals with uh labor relations and oppression by, you know, of the little guy by the, you know, corporations and stuff. Yeah.

[00:59:46]>> Well, I I think we're going to have to end the broadcast so we can go watch some shows. [laughter] >> I promise we're not sponsored, but you know, >> I'm just really like I'm just a really big nerd. [laughter] Well, I think I think that's part of the crowd here.

[01:00:03]>> Yeah, probably.

[01:00:04]>> So, it's it's really been great talking to you guys, Logan and Laura May. This is always a lot of fun. There's >> space is inspiring and it is it's part of who we are >> and to look up and wonder is really fun and to talk about it is great. So, thanks for joining us. Um, thanks for all of us to get getting together is a great excuse to talk. And we we had several behind the scenes folks. Lauren Cisneros who is always remarkable, Karina Haynes, Heather Craig doing all the behind the scenes tech making all this happen. So thanks to all them. It's it's I just like to get with you guys and sit back and listen >> because there's so much great energy and knowledge and inspiration. So, um, it's been great getting together and and and not just joining forces as individuals, but Grand Canyon National Park, Grand Canyon Conservancy, Low Observatory.

[01:01:00]What what great work all these places do individually and collectively.

[01:01:05]>> Thank you so much for having us and thank you for everyone who participated.

[01:01:09]Uh, and send questions by the way. We really >> And big shout out to Bob MacArthur who's watching. Um Bob Bob started as a volunteer at LOL. Then um he was doing so dang good we had to pay him and now he's warping minds in Colorado. Um he he intentionally became a middle school teacher. Um which I always marvel at and and thank you and thank all the teachers out there.

[01:01:34]>> Yeah, you were ground.

[01:01:36]>> I mean we we're gonna go now but just as we leave just I want to leave with a thought of who's inspired us in life and and thank those people who have in the past and continue to inspire us. People like Bob MacArthur.

[01:01:49]>> Yep.

[01:01:50]>> So with that, thanks everybody for joining us.

[01:01:52]>> Thank you so much. die and told