The "Middle Finger" Bill to the SEC & Big Ten?! Matt Brown Breaks Down the Future of College Sports

[00:00:00]Pat, thank you very much for your time today uh with both Craig and me. Uh what was your reaction uh when you saw and then eventually knowing you you probably went with the fine tooth comb went through the Catwell and Cruz bill?

[00:00:14]>> Uh thanks for having me guys. I I was not terribly surprised about the bulk of this bill. Um, I I admit I've talked to staffers from both of those Senate offices over the last year and had a good sense that whatever the compromise was going to look like would be mostly centered on eligibility on limited antitrust exemptions and would try to ignore the employment question as much as possible since that is the kind of biggest partisan trigger. Um, I think looking at the whole, what was it 117 pages, 111 pages, I I I think that there are some legitimately good policy ideas, things that if you separated them from this bill might get 75 plus votes in the Senate. There are some uh lines in here that I think are well-intentioned, but not terribly realistic or or bad ideas.

[00:01:01]Uh, and and a few that are are very clearly meant to be a screw you to the Big 10 in the SEC, which I think is funny. Uh that wasn't something that came up in any of my conversations leading up to this. We can I think reasonable people can debate whether that's good policy or legislative overreach. Uh but it is a little bit funny to see.

[00:01:21]>> Matt, when does the SEC and Big 10 break away and start their own college football aid?

[00:01:26]>> When it becomes profitable to do so. And right now it's not. And it isn't for a lot of different reasons. This is a similar thing that comes up uh every couple of years really since I've been doing college football sports writing for a living. Um, a lot of a lot of groups of schools, whether it's all of Division One or all of FBS or all of some other subgroup, get get all, you know, frustrated and angry with the NCAA and think we we should go do our own thing for for football. And then they realize what the liability costs are going to be, what the medical costs are going to be, the the new legal costs, and they realize, actually, no, this system's pretty good because now when we get sued, we could go make the big sky pay for part of it, or we we we could pass some we could we could we could distribute those costs along along everywhere. Um, there's certainly going to be a lot of broadcaster interest in what wherever Big 10 or SEC institutions are are playing football, but given the massive amount of money you would need to buy your way out of so many different contractual commitments and the political challenges here, as you can see, there's a bipartisan consensus. We all hate these two leagues and and I think breaking away and trying to do your own thing would attract additional antitrust review. Could happen someday.

[00:02:38]don't think it's going to happen immediately. And if it does, I'm not convinced it happens on Big 10 or SEC uh lines because once we start cutting away major parts of college football, I don't see why we have to assume Ruters gets to be a part of that, >> right? Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, when I when I think of Super League, I've long said I don't think it's just taking those two leagues as is and just, oh, they're a Super League.

[00:02:59]It's like, I'm sorry, but I don't consider fill in the blank Ruters, uh, the new Indiana that we all just point to as like the worst team. Yeah. I don't I don't consider them a super league versus an Oklahoma State or somebody like that. But um it is very interesting because man, I I brought this up to Michael McCann a little while ago, but they talk in pro sports terms, but there are still universities. And so there are all these different political elements that are entirely different, but you hear them talking about this like they are pro sports teams. And it's almost like you have to remind yourself of no, you're universities with political affiliations and a lot of vested people that make this a bit more complicated than just treating this like signing your your new deal uh for for TV partners >> unquestionably. And and I'm sure Mr. McCann, you know, got got into this because he he's forgotten more about this element of the law that I' I've learned as a layman. But you're right.

[00:03:50]uh universities uh are are obligated right now under title nine to sponsor a whole bunch of other different sports programs that NFL and NBA teams are are not. Uh professional sports leagues pay their athletes as employees and have a collective bargaining agreement and all of the labor structure that comes with that which is not part of college sports and college sports for the last hundred years hasn't even been trying to to show a profit. they they there's been every incentive to spend every dollar that you possibly get. Um because there's no profit taking, right? If you if you end up with a $30 million surplus, maybe you have a rainy day fund, you send it over to the library, you get a nice plaque at NACTA, uh and then you have the same problem again next year. So, if you try to completely superimpose that legal structure onto what you have right now in college sports, you're going to have problems. And I I would argue and I think I think I think McCann would as well that that's a big reason why the CSSE hasn't really worked out why there's been a lot of frustration and and chaos I think over the last two years because if you're not going to treat people like employees, you can't treat their contracts like employees and have the same buyouts and restrictive covenants and and next thing you know there's just a lot of uh of of roster attrition and change that the schools don't really have any power over. Matt, take me and others that aren't like very much entrenched to what goes on in Congress, the House of Representatives, the Senate, the process or whatever, because this is not going to happen next week. They're going to meet, but kind of take us through what must happen and how much of this bill can get through the House to even be voted on by the Senate, if much at all. This is, I think, a really great point because to me, the major obstacles for this thing to become law are less about the bill itself and more about calendar and process. The way that this would need to work, if you know, if I'm if I'm trying to remember my my schoolhouse rock days or or my undergraduate days is do you need that this Senate bill to escape a filibuster to eventually get 60 votes? So, you would need every single Republican to support it and then I believe seven Democrats and more Democrats if any Republicans like Ran Paul decide to vote against it. Um there's going to this bill is going to go through other committees and markups and there's going to be changes and tweaks before it is put up to a final vote and once that happens then it goes to the House. Um the House looked at a pretty similar bill, the SCORE act multiple times over the last year. Uh there I mean there were there are a few meaningful differences. score pro expressly prohibited athlete employment. This bill does not. Uh but then it needs to go back and the majority needs to vote on on and approve that as well. Part of the challenge here is that it is the end of May and there's going to be a a recess in the Senate in August and we have a midterm election in early November and there's generally not a lot of legislative activity in the month or two before that because people are traveling and they're campaigning and they're not going to show up for votes. So, if this is going to work, it needs to be rushed.

[00:06:46]It needs there there's this is something that has to get wrapped up realistically by the end of July. So, that there's not a whole lot of time. And things that have nothing to do with college sports, like, I don't know, a war uh or or uh uh any number of of international or major national events could change the legislative calendar and get this push back.

[00:07:07]>> Matt, uh what do you think of of kind of the the Cody Campbell, Greg Seni back and forth? I don't know if you saw much of that today, but uh just uh I just find it interesting kind of the tug-of-war and the the power being pulled in different directions. And Greg Sanki, a guy who's still got plenty of power, but he is the figure head for schools and they are in a place that we never foresaw them being in because they were so dominant for so long. But, uh feels like a guy who's kind of not in fully control uh and and kind of a little bit defensive, but also I can see why people side eye Cody. just curious your your thoughts on just kind of the power dynamics at play here.

[00:07:42]>> It's it's super interesting and I don't want to get I don't want to be partisan but I think it's a little bit of a microcosm of how a lot of policy works in this country period. Right.

[00:07:50]Unquestionably Greg Seni has still has enormous amount of power. Well along with Tony Patiti more power than any single individual likely within the college sports infrastructure. And if you think back over the last two or three years both of those individuals have not been shy about exercising that power and pushing it. uh because those two leagues represent the wealthiest and and and the overwhelming majority of the biggest brands in college sports. So, it's those two that really get to decide how the college football playoff works.

[00:08:16]It's those two that were the major driving forces between changes in the NCAA basketball tournament and and for a while a push to maybe get rid of some of the automatic bids for for the low major programs. It's those two that have pushed for major governance changes. And that can all work if you have the power.

[00:08:34]But you have to remember that there are a lot more states out there that are govern that are the home of ACC or Big 12 or Mountain West or or Sunb Belt institutions and if you push those folks around enough and boy I friends I I'll tell you over the last year I've gotten a lot of phone calls from athletic directors who are not normally prone to profanity who have expressed some really pointed frustration with the Big 10 and the SEC. eventually they're going to go to their lawmakers and and the pure math of how the Senate works is if everyone is just so sick of your crap and thinks that you are the figureheads for all that is wrong with with with college sports right now, they're going to gang up on you. Which is part of why I think it's a little bit funny that there's there's there's clauses in this bill that are pretty explicitly middle fingers to the Big 10 in the SEC. Why are there middle fingers in here specific to that? Well, it's not just because Senator Maria Canwell from Washington uh remembers what happened for her constituents who root for Washington after the Pack 12 fell apart and suddenly now they're they're going across the country to play Ruters on a Wednesday, but also what happened to Washington State and the community of Pullman. But beyond that, yeah, you also have a billionaire who has enough money to to influence how bills are made and to go buy a ton of television advertising himself and who is a leader for Texas Tech. one of the prime examples of an institution who's deeply in their their best interest here uh to to to try to limit the amount of power that the Big 10 and the SEC have. If you're like a bajillionaire and you're friends with the president and you can buy a bunch of television ads, senators are going to listen to you and his fingerprints, I think, are all over this particular bill. And it it just so happens that uh this exact personal fight is is part of of what happens here. And I'll tell you, we all know about this because this happened about college football. This happens for bills and other industries all the time.

[00:10:24]>> Oil, electricity, whatever, right?

[00:10:28]Animal rights. I mean, I'm just whatever.

[00:10:31]>> Sure. Could be could be Uber, could be technology, could be copper manufacturing, who knows? It's just whatever that particular niche is.

[00:10:38]>> Cell phone service, internet. U So, Matt, >> I I I don't have a lot of legal knowledge, but I'm learning this along the way. But when I read it and when I saw the part about how the the Big 10 and the SEC basically would want to would pull their television revenue, media rights, whatever, and then also accept that they can't grow along the way because they're going to be over a billion dollars in revenue. There is no I mean I don't people can say whatever they want about Petiti or Sanki or those kind. There's no reason why they would want to do that because they've been spending the last se several years getting to that point, right? Yeah, I I a part of me thinks that I don't know if the Big 10's going to be super interested or the NCC super interested in expanding in the immediate future anyway just because that it's no longer profitable once you're so large. But of course, they would be furious at the concept of a senator from Washington State and from Delaware and from Texas telling them that they can't. Why? That doesn't feel American to me, which telling you what you could can and can't do with your business, right? Um and and the the the issue about the pooling the media rights. I've told this to Campwell's people. I' I've said I've written this on extra points and shared this with others. If you were going to create a mechanism to pull media rights and wave the antitrust law to allow to to make that possible and you're not going to force the Big 10 or the SEC to do it, which I guess you could do if you just decide to nationalize television broadcasts for college football or something. If you don't force them, there's no mechanism to get them to do it. they would rather make less money but have a bigger gap between them and everybody else than they would potentially make a little bit more money but then have this you know the same television check coming in that Duke and Texas Tech and Baylor get um the other thing and I far be it for me to regularly agree with Greg Seni on the internet but I think he's right when he says we don't have any reason to believe that pooling all these media rights would automatically mean more money for everybody else uh that sounds more like a plan to other people to to draft off of the financial success of the SEC and kind of unspoken here, the Big 10.

[00:12:45]There's only so many outlets, you know, companies capable of buying television rights. And that number is getting smaller, not bigger. Um, I don't know if you add a bunch of nickels and dimes and quarters that you're going to end up with a $100 bill for everybody. Um, I know that there's there's a private equity group that's very influential right now in Congress that's pushing that idea, but that doesn't mean it's true.

[00:13:06]>> What did you think of uh speaking of private equity? Uh but this was very clearly this isn't PE, this is PI, this is private investment. But what did you think about the fact that uh none of the Big 12 schools have seemingly taken up Redbird Capital on their offer? It does feel like they're even advertising now as more of a play for the future that the future TV deal, the future business partnerships and all that, but did that surprise you in any way?

[00:13:29]>> I was a little surprised that nobody took it. What I had been hearing leading up to this was that only two or three schools were were even were were seriously interested and the this the schools that were more likely to take it were going to be some of the newer uh institutions in the league that that have more infrastructure to build up.

[00:13:49]But I you've heard this now I think from several athletic directors of the public schools that have turned this down and the rationale makes complete sense and that's the money's too expensive.

[00:13:59]>> Whether you're Colorado or UCF or Iowa State or Texas Tech and you need $30 million to build a new baseball stadium or to make some other hires, you can sell a bond. You can go to your governor. You can borrow money from a regional bank from the university itself or some other entity for three four and a half%. And what Redbird is offering is that money I I want to say was around 10. Um, and that's that's not a generally not a good financial deal unless you've exhausted traditional, you know, avenues or opportunities to get capital. What makes it working with somebody like Redbird potentially attractive is bringing in their expertise. I can think it actually makes a fair amount of sense for the Big 12 as a conference to do that 12.5 million dollar deal with Redbird and and maybe other leagues might look to doing that too. But if you're Houston, it's true.

[00:14:47]Like you you really don't need that money. And if you do, you can get it way cheaper than what's being offered here.

[00:14:51]And I'm not surprised people are turning that down.

[00:14:53]>> Matt, how many Freedom of Information Act letters do you send out every year?

[00:15:00]>> Every year.

[00:15:01]>> Oh, let's just say in the last 24 hours.

[00:15:03]I bet it's like I know you do a bunch.

[00:15:06]I'm just trying to kind of in a light way just kind of get pick your brain on that.

[00:15:11]>> Sure. I I in the last 24 hours I think probably just five.

[00:15:15]>> Okay.

[00:15:16]>> It's easily north of a thousand over over the course of a year. You know, I'll tell you like we there's, you know, about 200 or so public schools in division one and we will foil every single one of them at least twice a year, usually three times a year for just basic transactional stuff. Give me your your saw you hired a baseball coach. Let's see the new contracts. I saw you uh you switched from Adidas to Nike. Let's let's follow up on that and your annual budget. And then we'll do a ton over the course of the year for for things that are very serious and things that are not so serious. Like I I tweeted this right before I hopped on here. Um I I sent out requests to 20 schools because one of my readers asked, "How much toilet paper does a college football stadium go through?" I'm like, "That's a great question. Let's find out." And and God bless the University of Washington. They did the math and they they they shared the numbers and if I get, you know, five or six more, I'll do a whole story on it. But we we we send out requests for what, you know, what are the what are the contracts for halftime show entertainment, right? What does it cost to play Red Panda? Um what what does it cost to get insurance for a marching band? U you know, a lot of that really granular thing. And then the more granular stuff that sometimes the schools that work with us that that or that are subscribed to our newsletter ask us to find out. Um and we're happy to do that, too. So, Matt, I would like to leave on um more of like a football adjacent note and just wonder uh we're like a month out from media day starting up, which is fun, but also kind of frightening. Uh we got to take advantage of these these last few weeks, but uh what in this crazy ass off season has piqu your interest the most that you're looking forward to? the potential for success or disaster in Baton Rouge, like the SEC pointing fingers, Davo versus Pete Gold, like there's been so many things. Uh the playoff talk obviously never goes away. Just what's what's piqu your interest?

[00:17:04]>> You know, I'm going to try to I'm trying to think here for a second about what is especially interesting on the field. I I am really interested in Clemson football this year because Clemson did something that made sense in the moment but is extraordinarily risky to do which is they essentially gave Davo tenure. Uh, and I get why they did it, right?

[00:17:23]Because he was he's the the the most successful coach in in school history and and and you know steered the the the institution out of 20 years of mediocrity and has been an important cultural force within the school at large like the athletic department and the school has borrowed some of of Davos's personality and demeanor and everything and I think mostly in a positive way and they are not hitting close to expectations right now. They're going through assistant coaches and Davos's clearly really frustrated with the fact that people are frustrated with him. Um I have absolutely no idea how good they're going to be. They could win the ACC, they could finish seven and five um and and just beat South Carolina at at the end of the year, but but how how it's it's not common. I think that you see really successful coaches completely reinvent themselves and change what what made them successful.

[00:18:12]It's part of what was the part of the true genius of Nick Sabin. I think I don't know. I I have no idea if Dabau has it in him. And if he doesn't, that's going to get be a real messy divorce.

[00:18:22]>> You know, you're right because they they won a national title in 80 or 81.

[00:18:26]>> 81, I think. Right.

[00:18:27]>> Yeah.

[00:18:28]>> Yeah. And they had some guys, some players and teams that were pretty good, but they were almost like Georgia.

[00:18:33]Remember Georgia won with Hershel Walker and Vince Douly back in I think 80 beat Notre Dame and they had some good teams but then they they didn't start knocking on that like high high level of national championship competitors until like in the last six to eight years when Kirby showed up. Yeah, they came close a couple of times under Mark Rick, but I'm old enough to remember earlier in my career the the the term Clemsoning as part of the college football fan vernacular to come in with high expectations and to blow a 21-point lead to Georgia Tech on a Wednesday or something or or or to somehow failed even though you have you have recruited very well and have these other things going for you. And I remember what Clemson was like before Davo, which was, you know, a perennial 500ish, you know, often forgettable on television kind of team. But it's not just that because you can have teams where you win a lot of games and the the coach relationship is kind of transactional. I I think it's a little bit different for for for Davo because this whole thing is no, we're we're going to we're going to lead with family. We're not going to make college football transactional. we're going to make this the gigantic non-denominational Protestant church camp and we're going to baptize people at midfield and had a lot in common with the kind of people that root for Clemson. And none of this is pjorative, by the way, right? Like this there's something very admirable about going from selling insurance to building a national championship, you know, college football team. Um, but the way that you built those teams in 2016, 17, 18 is not the same way that you built them now. And it's it happens, but it's that's not super common, I think, for coaches to completely, you know, change how they approach roster management or or how they approach uh their their things schematically.