Gov Sakaja,Sen Sifuna, Cherarkey & Kajwang Drama at Senate Public Account Comitee For Grilling

[00:00:00]And you know you began by saying that you will bring that matter to the Senate.

[00:00:05]We will sit back and wait for that matter to be brought. Because, you know what, Chair?

[00:00:09]This mistreatment of uh county governments by the national government does not begin and end with officers of the county governments. It also extends to allocation of resources in the Treasury to county governments.

[00:00:26]So, bring that matter, let's deal with it.

[00:00:28]>> Yeah, just as an exit point, uh Governor, just just under 30 seconds. Uh then the hypocrisy in your statement is you fired Kirich based on that uh legal challenge.

[00:00:41]>> No, he's not been fired. Um he's not holding the position for now.

[00:00:44]>> But you have appointed somebody substantively.

[00:00:48]>> Yeah, we have 10 CCs.

[00:00:50]And uh for you know the one >> So, you moved him to another >> Yes.

[00:00:55]>> department.

[00:00:55]>> He is the substantive CC.

[00:01:00]>> Yes, uh because he came here, he's not out, or he became substantive after I asked.

[00:01:04]>> For you. Yeah, you know, sometimes he sees you on TV, so he's, you know >> Yeah, there's there is an issue that uh we have to agree on, Governor. Warrants of arrest only issue if you fail to attend court.

[00:01:15]>> No.

[00:01:16]Yeah, that's why I want this thing substantively [clears throat] dealt with. We have warrants every week without issues of attending court.

[00:01:22]>> This is where we we we want to guide you because you cannot bring matters that are before the courts to the Senate for resolution.

[00:01:29]>> No.

[00:01:29]>> The issue that we want to be clear on, eh? Even you have been subject of arrest warrants from the Senate just recently because you failed to appear. If you appeared before the courts, that is where you make your case because also those courts, they are also Kenyans.

[00:01:44]They understand the challenges that devolved units are going through. We have been through numerous such issues.

[00:01:49]I remember when uh the lawyers were issuing those warrants all the time, and it is usually those legal bills, and you sit down with some of them, agree on a payment plan, something you can take to the court.

[00:02:00]>> My senator should listen to his governor.

[00:02:04]>> Why are you preempting the issue before I bring it?

[00:02:06]>> Wait to look at the entire >> Chairman.

[00:02:09]>> The entire >> That is what we call chairman.

[00:02:13]>> Chairman.

[00:02:14]>> That is what your senator is warning you against.

[00:02:16]>> But everyone deserves a fair hearing.

[00:02:18]>> Let's talk >> I can't even hear you.

[00:02:20]>> [laughter] >> Let's hear it.

[00:02:21]>> Let's talk >> Listen to that point.

[00:02:23]>> Senator >> Listen to him.

[00:02:25]>> Why can't we just move to this?

[00:02:26]>> Senator Ongwae.

[00:02:27]>> Because you see, let's put our mics >> He said he will, he has not.

[00:02:30]>> He'll bring it subsequently.

[00:02:31]>> He may not even bring it.

[00:02:32]>> Let's all put our mics off.

[00:02:33]>> But we don't want him to do exercise in futility.

[00:02:36]>> So, why why can't we just let him do what he has to do?

[00:02:39]>> We got the serious >> Because at face value, it's exercise in futility.

[00:02:42]>> Yeah, the Senate is a house where everybody comes to for redress.

[00:02:47]>> Said you know it.

[00:02:49]>> You cannot all be talking at the same time, please.

[00:02:54]>> Yes, let's >> Just talk in turns.

[00:02:57]Let's just talk in turns.

[00:02:59]Now, let us listen to Senator Wambua.

[00:03:04]>> You know, me, chairman, I'm saying is the governor has said that he will.

[00:03:09]He has not.

[00:03:11]Let's wait for that to happen.

[00:03:14]When it happens, we will deal with it.

[00:03:16]>> I am saying let's go to the issues here because there are quite serious issues here.

[00:03:20]>> Yes.

[00:03:21]>> I would personally want to know whether the the 1 million machine for making chapati has arrived.

[00:03:25]>> Yeah.

[00:03:26]>> Those are issues that I want to discuss.

[00:03:28]>> I am not chairman, eh?

[00:03:30]>> Please, let's just talk when you all get my mic. It is possible for you to ask for the mic, and I'll give you the mic, and you prosecute your case.

[00:03:39]Now, Senator Sifuna, are you asking for the mic?

[00:03:41]>> I have asked.

[00:03:42]>> Please do.

[00:03:43]>> Uh finally, you know, I don't know how I can put this. If you go to the wrong forum with a problem, uh expecting resolution, it's it's actually uh I don't know how I can put it, Governor.

[00:03:56]Uh because we have even in our standing orders, we have the sub judice rule. We can't deal with matters that are before the courts. Uh what was giving us guidance, but we will wait for that. I just wanted to know because it's a matter of great concern to me personally because I know Kerich. Are you aware as a government of his physical whereabouts?

[00:04:15]>> Cha Cha let me say this. One, we've not come on that matter. I have not said we're bringing substantive issues with respect to court rulings.

[00:04:25]Because the sub judice rule is that if you bring a matter that is currently before a court and your hearing of that matter can jeopardize its outcome, that is when you don't discuss it. I'm talking about the Government Proceedings Act.

[00:04:39]And allow me to leave it at that, Chair.

[00:04:41]>> Is it possible, members, that we leave that issue >> He's not answered my question.

[00:04:48]>> and we go to the substantive matter >> because looking at the time >> I've been asking you to give me >> You know you know this is this is a house of record, eh?

[00:04:57]And we all know, including Governor here, that we have all taken an oath, even as as we sit this afternoon, to respect the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya. So if if the courts have issued orders and you have county attorney, you have a legal department, you have gone to court, you have lost the case, and there's that court order. What really do you want the Senate of Kenya to >> Which Which matter are you talking about?

[00:05:22]>> Whatever matter. Any You know you are you are coming here.

[00:05:25]You you are you are trying to ventilate before us that that that you have a problem with this issue of courts issuing orders.

[00:05:35]>> Chair, that is >> Chair can I say something? That is the folly of judgment before a matter is brought to you.

[00:05:40]>> What is the issue you are raising? Look at it.

[00:05:42]>> What is the issue you are raising?

[00:05:43]>> I'm talking about unfair execution of Government Proceedings Act.

[00:05:47]>> Through court orders.

[00:05:49]I mean you That's not a matter.

[00:05:53]Chairman, that's not a matter that we can prosecute.

[00:05:59]It has not come before us.

[00:06:00]>> Even putting it on record itself is unprocedural.

[00:06:04]>> Uh chair, I think the governor shared the frustration they are going through as county government.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah.

[00:06:11]>> And it's not the matter that brought them here before this committee. So, I think until when he actually has done his own research and is ready to come before Senate for a solution, then we should move to the audit issues. Please.

[00:06:26]>> Senator Chair, we have been around. We know what a good is happening around this country. We have had a lot of issues where counties are being frustrated left right. And that's what the governor just said. I think it's a matter of summarizing everything. Let's wait for that opportunity.

[00:06:41]>> That's Finally, I think my question simple and flimsy.

[00:06:46]>> My which the governor has put it to rest that the CCM is not acting is substantive. The only person who is still in process is the county attorney.

[00:06:55]>> Yes, that is the introduction was that it was acting, but the governor has confirmed he has The revolution comes, governor, I agree with your frustration.

[00:07:04]>> Yes, sorry.

[00:07:06]In article 96 or 95, the Senate protect exists to protect the interest of counties and their governments.

[00:07:13]It is very unfortunate that even before listening to the substantive issues that our governor is saying counties are facing, that senators can be prejudicial.

[00:07:23]Why don't we wait for that matter to be brought, look at it, if it makes sense, do what you need to do. If it doesn't make sense, then you leave it. It could and dismissive.

[00:07:34]>> Yeah, it's okay, governor. The matter that the governor is talking about is not in this house yet.

[00:07:40]>> No, it is not.

[00:07:41]>> Go and prepare, bring it and >> It has been dealt with in one way or another in the last part in the last senate but not substantially.

[00:07:47]>> Thank you senator. You want to read something?

[00:07:50]>> I've not been answered on whether the county government of Nairobi knows where Kidero is physically.

[00:07:55]>> I will not answer that.

[00:07:58]>> So that that is individual to his his rights. I will leave it.

[00:08:02]>> Fair enough. I think fair enough.

[00:08:03]Looking at time. 10 minutes to two members.

[00:08:05]>> Chair chair just as an exit with your indulgence, if you don't know where your employee is physically, how will they execute their duties and is still substantive?

[00:08:14]>> So how would he know where he is really?

[00:08:17]Is there something I don't know about this issue?

[00:08:19]>> Chair, can you control the meeting, please?

[00:08:22]>> Can you be chased? I think let's let's just uh go to the substantive matter, members.

[00:08:29]Is that okay?

[00:08:30]So before before Governor I came in, we had opportunity to engage with the auditors on the matters raised in the receiver of revenue.

[00:08:42]We will start with the receiver of revenue and then if you get time we go to the executive.

[00:08:47]We looked at the matters that were not resolved. These are the matters that we shall look at now.

[00:08:55]The first paragraph was paragraph eight. That is page five.

[00:09:02]On the certificate, receivables from exchange and non-exchange transactions.

[00:09:10]Auditor, you had already done your audit.

[00:09:15]And because by 31st um we had our report at 1st March, the governor had not turned up.

[00:09:24]We had and adopted this report.

[00:09:28]What we do wanting from you is we're just looking at the implementation of this report.

[00:09:34]So still we'll go through the issue and then the governor would give us the response and how they're implementing the recommendations of the Senate report. Please go through 8.1.

[00:09:55]>> Thank you, chair.

[00:09:57]>> Sorry, 8.2.

[00:09:58]>> 8.2 >> 8.2, yes.

[00:10:01]>> Note, do I read the whole of it or in summary?

[00:10:04]>> Just read the whole of it.

[00:10:06]>> Ah, thank you.

[00:10:07]Note 22 to the revenue statement reflect receivable from exchange transaction totaling to Kenya shillings 7 billion 529,000 million 755,055.

[00:10:21]However, receivable totaling Kenya shillings 4 billion 816 million 825,885.