The debate offers a sharp look at the conflict between winning individual elections and maintaining a coherent national party identity. It correctly identifies how short-term survival tactics can unintentionally damage the party's long-term credibility.
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2026 Midterm Debate ESCALATES
Added:They're going to be saying, "Look, he ran as not a Democrat or by pushing of distancing himself from the Democrats.
Therefore, he might be fine and it's very helpful perhaps for the individual candidates brand." At this point, the average American citizen has proven that they are beyond [ __ ] [ __ ] when it comes to associating policy with anybody. So as long as the Democrats get in office and do good things, nobody's going to remember 2 years ago that some person said this thing about this thing jerks off about it was like the comma is for a day them and Donald Trump is for [ __ ] loser fat [ __ ] American trailer park trash. Okay, the how the [ __ ] is this even a message when Kla didn't spend any of her [ __ ] time talking about trans people in her entire [ __ ] campaign? This was a this was a statement she made in like 2019. Is that Kla's fault for messaging? Was it exposed Democrat's fault? No, it's because the Republican media apparatus has defined what the Democratic party is. I like we're looking at fault or being perceived as hyper progressive when in 2019 she was making public advoc advocations for how we could figure out to legislate reparations >> in 2019 in 2024 Donald Trump called herself the president of no new wars and in 2025 we just lost the worst war in US history. I mean like this is it's a media problem.
>> How do we deal with competitive races?
What rhetoric is okay? what rhetoric should be off limits, what should the strategy be? And we're here to talk about it and I'm happy to talk about it.
I want to give the mic first to Mr. Hutch and he can kind of explain what he means a little bit, maybe clarify, tell people who he is, all these things, and we'll just kind of go around the room.
Okay, go ahead. Well, I should clarify, and I don't know if this like [ __ ] up the prompt for the debate, but I think you could say I was being a little hyperbolic. I don't know about like fully throw Biden and the party under the bus, but kind of like if it helps.
My logic is like pretty straightforward.
The Democratic party brand right now is just really bad. I loved Biden's presidency. I thought he was a very strong president, but uh the approval rating for the party, I think, is the lowest in recorded history. Doesn't really seem to be turning around despite a lot of wins over the last year and a half. And for races like uh Maine where you flipping this red seat where there's a lot of independent voters and especially uh Texas with Tyler Rico in the Senate race uh there is value to him you know putting some distance between himself and the party which is kind of toxic right now. And I don't like generally when left-wing politicians uh talk [ __ ] about the party or Biden, but I think it's necessary in some of these races, and I'll just leave it there.
>> Okay, we're we're going to talk about it. I I it doesn't [ __ ] up the prompt.
Uh at least for me, I I still disagree.
Bishop may or may not, but we'll we'll we'll talk about it. Um Bishop, I want to give the mic to you. What are your thoughts here, >> everybody? Um yeah, so as far as this topic goes, uh there there's clearly a a big problem right now with the branding with the Democratic party and there's uh very low polling on people's opinion on the party. Um but I I don't think what we need in American politics and democratic politics right now is more [ __ ] on the Democrats. I don't think that that's like an element of politics that is under represented right now. Um I I do understand and champion the fact that in specific races there needs to be criticism of unpopular policies.
Um, a really good example is uh Taler Rico and uh him moving forward with a break in a lot of Democratic candidates uh on the um uh trans issue involving minors. Um and and so I think that on one hand it's important to remember injustice is real, corruption is constant. So we do need change. It it it demands that we criticize bad policies.
But I I really uh bristle at the concept of throwing something under the bus because the implication there is that well, you know, I'm just going to accuse the Democratic party of being DC elites and the Epstein class and me, even though I'm running on the D ticket, I am not a part of that Epstein class. and and that's why you can go with me. I don't think that we should be endorsing this demolition of of our values and of our move movement. We should be repairing it.
>> Thank you, Destiny. What are your thoughts?
>> Yeah, I don't know how much disagreement there's going to be between everybody here, but I mean, I think it's just one of kind of like strategy. Um, the bluer the district you are, the safer you are, it should be, the more you're building the party. like those people can afford to attach themselves to the Democratic brand and then hopefully build it stronger. They can take a little bit of a hit if there is some hit to take there because you're trying to boost the popularity of an unpopular thing. But I mean, if you're in a purple district, sometimes you have to create space between you and at least the perception of unpopular democratic policies. And if we're ever going to have the majorities that we need in the Congress to bulldoze Twitter HQ or to take back every piece of property that Elon Musk has seized to the United States, then we got to do everything we can to get our majorities in Congress first.
Do we think that this creates kind of like this self-perpetuating problem that we have that uh the more we criticize the Democrats in order to win specific seats and specific races, the more that becomes the thing to do and then we ask ourselves, why is the Democratic uh party's popularity so low? Well, it's because in every competitive race, we seem to be throwing them under the bus.
And so, I understand like this desire to do what you got to do to win sometimes.
And maybe and and and to be clear, I think it's okay to criticize Biden, the Democrats, the DNC when they do something that is incorrect. But I think it's just it's just a problem. And I think one of the reasons we're having this problem is because of this kind of uh strategy that Hutch is suggesting of just well you got to do it to win so we're going to keep doing it. But it again just kicks the can down the road.
What would your response be to that Hutch? I'm really curious.
>> I don't want to make any assumptions but do you think that your response to this proposition is colored by your disdain for like the lefty candidates that just fully toss the party under the bus all the time?
>> Yes. Okay. So, in my >> in my head, I'm I'm, you know, I I should have added more clarification. I I kind of hinted at it in the tweet, but Destiny mentioned it. I mean, if you're talking about a candidate like, you know, Chris Rab in Philadelphia or something like that, you know, that's like one of the one of the bluer districts in the entire country. And so, I that is just a completely cynical, self-serving rhetoric that I find to be destructive to the party. And and I don't co-sign that kind of a thing. Like Tarico really is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. He's running just an a decidedly like less partisan campaign than any other Democrat that I've seen basically. And you know, for a state like Texas, don't you think there's value there in just acknowledging how unpopular Biden was and uh and how unpopular the party is currently, especially in a state like Texas? I mean, that's that's a pretty tall order to to run as a partisan Democrat in that state.
>> I understand it's a tall order, but we're never going to build the Democratic brand if we keep retreating from it.
>> That the reason Oh, go ahead.
>> So, I Okay, I agree to marry these two points a little bit, and I would hope we would find agreement here between me and Hutch. Um, the throwing the party under the bus thing, this is exclusively within the realm of people running for office. I don't think members of the media should be doing this. Um, so if you're on CNN or if you're on MSNBC or if you're a streamer, whatever, I don't think you should retreat from the brand there and constantly trash Democrats for whatever reason. I just think there might be times when if you're running in like a very purple state and there's some unpopular thing related to Biden, creating distance there is probably an okay thing. But but different different roles for different segments of society, I guess. Yeah.
>> Would you agree, disagree, Hutch? What do you think?
>> Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.
we're talking, you know, to your point, you're asking like how do we repair the damage or how do we repair the repair the brand?
>> Yes.
>> I don't know if that's going to happen until we get power and actually do things. And so in order to get power and do things, I think you have to make smart calculations when you're running depending on >> the way. Yeah. But if the way you ran to get power is I'm not the Democrats and then you do something good, people aren't going to necess like they aren't going to connect that in a way that we want. They're going to be saying, "Look, he ran as not a Democrat or by pushing of distancing himself from the Democrats. Therefore, he might be fine."
And it's very helpful perhaps for the individual candidates brand.
>> These are this type of connection you're talking about. If you're training a dog, you can't spank it after it's peed on the carpet like 10 hours later, like when you come home. It can only associate things close in time. I think at this point, the average American citizen has proven that they are beyond [ __ ] [ __ ] when it comes to associating policy with anybody. So, as long as the Democrats get in office and do good things, nobody's going to remember two years ago that some person said this thing about this thing, all that matters is like building the coalition, getting in power, and then doing good things. And then on the media side of things, we have to work at communicating that better. But on the lawmaker side of things, um, America is a policyless country when it comes to why people vote for things. So, I I don't think that should be a concern at all in my opinion.
>> Number one, one of the big problems that I have with this is this idea that there is some kind of a coalition. I think that one of the things that uh one of the things that Wick is pointing out is that if these people make it a part of their brand that they're borderline independents and that they are their success is that they're a borderline independent and they're not a part of the Epstein class and they're not a part of the DC elites, then they're going to continue to be beholden to that message through the at least a a a sizable amount of their career, a sizable amount of their uh time in office And I we've seen that with independence. I I I mean I I think I do think that there's a big difference in uh let's say like close competitive uh competitive campaigns, which competitive campaigns is the terminology that you used, Hutch. I I do think that I in uh competitive campaigns there is more room for distancing yourself from particularly uh damaging policies. But I I I also take a a a big issue with the idea that if we can just get into power, everything's going to be okay and everybody's going to love us. I feel like there's like this kind of idea here that it's like just one more election, guys. Just one more elections and we're going to fix one more election and we're going to fix everything. And the reality is there needs to be accountability. There needs to be accountability for the aspects of the Democratic platform that have driven people away. There needs to be accountability for why we've lost certain types of voters. And I mean, on one hand, you're you're hearing that you're like, "Oh, well, okay, accountability for these negative things. That sounds like more criticizing of the Democrats." But it's not necessarily a matter of criticizing the Democratic party so much as is it's criticizing specific ideas. And that's how the Democratic Party is going to go grow. And the way I see it, that's how we're going to win elections.
Well, I I don't think that it's as simple as just winning power. It's it's it's what they do with that power is really important. And I think they need to swing pretty big on reforms and some social democratic policies the next time they're given power. And I to piggyback off of Destiny's point, I agree with him that I think that people's attention pan spans are pretty small, especially voters in this country. And you know, like I I guess I would just pose the question to you guys, like what do you think a candidate like Pelah or shared Brown should say when they're asked, you know, when they're pressed about like Biden's border policy and they say like obviously, you know, like this was a big problem, a big vulnerability for the administration and and for Kla's campaign who inherited that baggage. You know, what do you think he did wrong and what would you do do differently in terms of policy? like that there's no way to answer that question without somewhat throwing Biden under the bus and acknowledging that he did drop the ball and kick the can down the road too long when it came to the border.
>> But there's a distinct difference between saying, you know what, I don't think Biden did this correctly and I think I would do it in a better way than the Democrats are just weak on the border and we should never trust them.
But I am not the Democrats. I'm more of an independent, a maverick if you will, and I will go in there and I will get what's done for the needs of my people.
Like, it's it's about how you say it, how you approach these things. And I think that when you make statements like we should just throw the party under the bus or throw Biden under the bus, what you're doing and and this is kind of like, and you mentioned this earlier, like how much of this is colored by my disdain for some of these lefty arsonists as I I see them in the party, is that what you're doing is you have people, influencers, streamers, people like that, who take this and they run with it in a way that I think is destroying our brand, is destroying ing our party and is saying like, "Hey, the only way we can win is if we distance ourselves from the Epstein class, the DNC, all these things." And this doesn't just happen in these competitive races.
It has a much broader effect than what you're you're saying. Like, we have to realize that what happens in a specific race does not always and in fact rarely stays within that specific race. These things have ripple effects outside that break containment that go beyond the scope. And that's what I think that that's happening. I think that there are too many people who are saying, you know what, Democrats just can't win by being Democrats. We have to be different. And I I I it's going to destroy our brand long term. It's a bad strategy.
>> Brand. So, okay. So, it's just it comes down to recognizing who has what responsibility. It's not on the responsibility of individual candidates running in competitive districts to do brand building for the Democratic party.
like, you know, why not?
>> Because that's not their job. They they can't do it. It's it's too much. It's just not fair for them. Where do you put your strongest seats, your your majority speakers, your Pelosis and your Schumers, right? These aren't people generally in a congressional seat in uh like Pennsylvania or Michigan, right?
You put these people in like the bluest places possible because this is where the leadership of your party sits because it's like a safe district because you know that you can, you know, fight and dictate the party stuff from there. But you don't have people that are, you know, fighting for their lives in competitive areas also trying to do brand rehab for the Democratic party.
That should be the job of safer Democratic seats and then media people that are interested in establishing a strong brand for the Democratic party.
That that's like that's it. Yeah. It's just not >> it's not happening in the safe seats. In fact, the opposite is happening in the safe seats. In the safe seats, what we're seeing is some of the biggest damage to the Democratic brand that we've had in my adult lifetime.
>> Sure. then the criticism needs to go to that. But the the purple people like if if the tankies online for however little whatever influence they have and then if the conservatives in real life are the ones who are dictating what the Democratic party's brand is which they are right then why would you hitch your wagon to that in a in a purple area in a competitive area and then try to salvage that brand while simultaneously fighting for your own election? This is just not possible. That's an impossible fight.
We're not, just to be clear, I'm not asking them to defend every single thing Biden or the Democrats do. I'm asking them not to actively tarnish their them, right? Like a do no harm type of thing.
Like I do think it does lasting damage not only to the local area but to its branded nationally. um when you have someone in a purple state in a deeply competitive race that decides to just trash talk uh the DNC, Pelosi, Schumer.
>> I don't know. Okay. I think maybe I don't know how much distance there is.
We should clarify. I think what we're talking about then I can't speak for Hutch. I would be surprised if he disagrees. I don't think any of us are saying that like if you're in a purple district, you need to go on TV and be like, "Fuck Biden. I hope he dies. I hate the Democrats. They suck [ __ ] as a party. Like, let's go new independent."
I don't think anybody's saying that. But it's just like if somebody asks you a question um like I if it's 2027 and somebody you know our house majority if a Schumer or Jeffree type person ask a question like you know what was going on with Biden in the border I think they should fight for their life on that position. [ __ ] you. Biden did better on the border than Trump did and the 20 30 40 million people that came in was a [ __ ] lie. The wall didn't get built.
That was a [ __ ] lie. ICE didn't do [ __ ] anything. That was a [ __ ] lie. And fight on that. But that's a job for them after the election in a if if you're running a competitive race on these upcoming midterms and somebody asks you, you know, what do you think Biden did on the border, we're not saying like, you know, Biden let in 30 million illegals to kill and eat our children, but more just like, you know, I think that Biden dropped the ball on the border. It was the thing we could have improved on and, you know, we look forward to doing that in the midterms, blah blah blah. Just like that type of thing. I don't think anybody's saying like it needs to be a fullon like, you know, >> Well, let's let's clarify from Hutch then. Is is that really all you're saying by throw people under the bus that oh, we can just be a little critical of of the DNC sometimes? I >> mean, ideally, but like when I look at when I look at Platner in Maine, I don't like hearing it. I I'm not a fan of his, but it it really seems to have worked with those with that electorate. And so, I'm I'm of the I'm of the mind right now that just do whatever you do like you need to do to win the the that seat.
Like, that's just so important to me.
And then like for for for Democrats that become obstructionists, like those are typically the most vulnerable Democrats when it comes to primaries. So, you know, if if if they use that rhetoric and then actually get elected and then they're, you know, actually um adversarial actively like while they're in Congress, the those Democrats that don't play nice are typically have like a shorter shelf life than the ones that do play ball. So, >> but the Democrats aren't winning in Maine. I I mean it the first person that Graham Platner attacked once he won the primary was the Democrats. And so you can talk about him having a D in front of his name all you want, but I mean I I I don't we can I I feel like the whole intention, right, is to uh be willing to pull some kind of a vote blue no matter who is so that way the arguments in Congress are between different shades of blue instead of between blue and red.
And while I can understand that, >> okay, I'm going to I will actually if you make me defend platiner too much, I will rope on stream. Okay, to say that Platinar attacked the Dems as soon as he came to office, this was after a series of the most weak sauce insane hit pieces, okay, on the [ __ ] planet. All right, that New York Times piece of like he took her by the shoulders, he put her in a room 20 years ago. Like if Planner attacks the Dems after he wins the primary, I think he's got he's got like a week or two of that where you got to let him slide, I think, a little bit.
Right.
I I I don't know. I mean, I I think that when Chuck Schumer comes out and fully endorses you and the Democratic party comes out and fully endorses you, I think that uh calling the Democrats a bunch of pedophiles is uh I don't think it's just distasteful. I think it's a I think it's a whole [ __ ] statement.
>> What is it? What did he say? What did he say?
>> He he accused the Democrats of being the Epstein class. He said Democrats and Republicans in the Epstein class. So I don't like the I don't like that saying for >> not calling them pedophiles.
>> Well, I mean like it's a that's a much broader thing, right?
>> Is it?
>> How what is the connection? Is it pedophiles to an island and they [ __ ] them? Or at least that's the that's the thing, right?
>> I mean, isn't the idea, right, that there are a few elites, maybe some Democrats that went to the island? Isn't that the whole idea?
>> Yeah, but it's it's more it's a popul.
[ __ ] brain rot populism, which listen, I hate it literally more than everybody on the [ __ ] planet. But I don't think that's the same as him saying that like everybody in the Democratic party are all pedophiles and they're all part of the Epstein class.
Even Osaf like alludes to like Yeah, I know. I don't I don't like it.
>> But would we rather have Platiner or would I mean, here's a question. Would you rather have Platiner or um [ __ ] Mills?
I don't like the fact that I am going to have to point to the fact that I that I've never supported Graham Platner if I ever criticize somebody's morals ever again. And I'm >> Why would that matter? Who's playing that game? Didn't Lindsey Graham say something on TV after the Garland thing where was it Lindsey Graham who was like, "We would never block any Supreme Court justice or whatever." And then like they instantly changed their rules the second they have the chance to put in was it [ __ ] was it Gorsuch that they nuke the filibuster to put it? But these Americans don't care. Americans Yeah. Americans in general.
>> I don't want to become the that party, right?
>> There is no virtue on the road to defeat. It doesn't matter if we if we if we can't win seats.
>> We're talking Okay. But we're not talking just one election. I'm talking about a more long-term I want to consistently win, not just win the next one. Right. Yeah. This >> Go ahead.
>> We're talking We're talking about a one seat out of a 50 person Senate. And we're and and we're talking about accepting all this >> Mills. [ __ ] I keep >> one seat in Maine. And >> but what choice do you have?
>> What choice do you have?
>> Like not not vote for not support Platner. I mean, I I don't understand how at this point after 10 years of the Trump era and you know, the Republicans have been losing their minds for the last 30 [ __ ] years. It's just I mean, I I don't like Platner. I don't like him as a candidate. I don't like his politics. I don't like his rhetoric. But I don't have any hesitation in me whatsoever to support this guy. I donated $50 to his campaign. Like there's just what choice do we have?
What choice?
>> The dem the Democratic party isn't like polling at 30% because we don't have a seat in Maine. That's not the change.
That's not what's going to change this crisis that the party and that the movement is facing. If we can just if we could just accept Platner and we can just accept his, you know, everything he's doing, everything he's saying, that's going to change.
>> You don't need to do that. But the Democrats aren't pulling low because vulnerable.
One time one time, please.
>> You just have to accept that he's the candidate. He's the guy that the voters of Maine chose. You don't have to [ __ ] gargle his nutsack. You don't have to like give $50.
>> You can you can be honest about the fact that you don't like his character. You have questions about him, but that that shouldn't that shouldn't dissuade you from taking the only action that makes sense in the spot in the face of Trump and MAGA. Do you worry that your support of Platner, as tepid as it might be, with all the caveats that you've made, might do long-term harm in the future, right, when people go and >> No. Well, what do you think would what do you think is more harmful? Like Platner winning and being a Democrat in the Senate or Republicans continuing to control that chamber of Congress?
>> That's that's not the the question. The question is which is more harmful? the fact that the Democrats elected and supported and donated to a man who lied about having a Nazi tattoo and all these other really big red flags that people have huge issues with or Senator Collins getting elected again and voting with Trump uh what 80 75% >> one senator that blocked us from a public option.
>> Why are we acting like Senate seats are a thing to be gambled with right now? We have problems with the Democratic party's brand. Those problems need to be alleviated from strong blue seats and the Democratic media. That's it. It's never going to be repaired by people fighting in vulnerable districts when conservatives are allowed to dictate what the party is to the American people. You you cannot fight back on that from a vulnerable seat in >> you you repair the reputation with with good policy and competent governance like the Shapiro Shapiro is a really good example of this in a microcosm in the state of Pennsylvania. You know, just you know, replicate that at the national level. It's not easy, but it's >> You know what Shapiro did? He stand the Democratic party. He was an unapologetic Democrat in a very purple state. And guess what, gang? It worked, right? He didn't have to apologize for being a Democrat.
>> He's had some shade for Biden and Kamla, I believe. I'm pretty sure.
>> Nobody needs to be a psychopant. I don't think anybody here is arguing. We're not asking for everybody needs to be a psychopan.
But I think I I I can't get past this idea that's like, oh well, you know, if if we just if we can just push just like a couple of things over the edge, it's going to solve this big gaping hole. And I I would say the big gaping hole that we have is the problems that came when we were in power. When we talk about uh you know, while Biden was in power, that's where the damage came. The damage came from when we were in these offices.
And that's why people don't want to put him put us back. And in order to do that, you do have to criticize ideas, but you shouldn't be throwing out the baby with a bathwater because then any repairs that you're you're doing it it isn't actually repairing the party. It's just repairing that one individual. And I I think that that's kind of the the big difference here. I think the big difference is that like we're I don't think also that like you know Graham Platner for example needs to be going out to all these town halls that he's doing and saying I know you guys have a problem with the Democrats but let me tell you about how great they are. I think there's a there's a big line between him having to do that and him calling people and him doing what he's doing and and and other candidates doing the same. In fact, I I Hutch, I think you brought up a really great point that uh Tallerico is actually doing what you described the best. He he he really isn't throwing the Democrat party under the bus. He he but he is also very very carefully and very accurately addressing some of these problems and and I would say that he is a case case study of what I would say it should look like.
>> I I agree. I think he's doing a really good job. It's like a soft kind of distance, but it is there. It is distance. But I'm also thinking about races like in Iowa, this um this guy uh Sand who's running for that seat in a state that's voted for Trump by 10 points I think in the last three elections. I'm thinking about like the independent guy running in Nebraska. Um it's not just about like, you know, defending light blue seats or being competitive in in purple seats. It's also I, you know, like we need to start targeting ste seats that are Trump plus five or Trump plus 10. And in those states and in those districts, you probably are going to have to be a little bit more firm in setting that distance. And uh you probably shouldn't be pulling too many punches when it comes to >> the line for you on this, right? Like how how much if say someone's running in in Iowa, like you said, a Trump plus 10 district, right? Um, and you want he wants to win and he thinks, you know what, the only way I can win is I have to go as hard against the Democrats as possible. Is there a line where you'd say, okay, that's too much. Even if it would increase your chances of winning, I don't think you should do this.
I'm sure there is a line, but I'm open to a lot of things. If it means like flipping an R plus10 seat, like I'm I'm open to someone, you know, running on some of the MAGA language on the border, for example, if it meant if it meant pushing them over the finish line.
>> Sure. What about abortion? Say someone was like, you know what, I hate abortions and I want to outlaw abortions in my state.
>> I think uh I think in like an again, if it's a if it's about flipping an R plus 10, >> increases their chance of flipping the seat, it doubles their chances. Hold on.
This isn't a fair question. You're now you're that's like saying like, "Oh, so would you support a Democrat if they would vote alongside Republicans on every important issue?" No, we're talking about rhetoric here. We're talking about like quote unquote throwing somebody under the buses and distancing yourself from their administration akin to some kind of like populist type rhetoric. We're not talking about like, well, what if they would you still vote for them if they would vote for, you know, outlawed?
>> They say they would. They you know that this is the rhetoric they're using to get elected. I I don't know if that's a real thing that where you can just totally fabricate or lie about your positions and then get elected after.
>> What do you think Trump did?
>> What do you think Trump did? He fabricated and lied about all his positions. Uh no new wars, all these things. It worked.
>> Yeah, but that I think it's a I don't think I think that's a >> there's a difference there that I I can't fully annotate right now. If it was the policy of like generally Democrats elected people to lie about [ __ ] and then get in office and then do [ __ ] then then they [ __ ] lied about it then that would be based. But the idea of like having just a like the whole Republican party does that. The idea of like trying to get a couple hypersp specific Democrats to lie about particular policy get elected. I mean I guess in that case I would be in favor but if you could demonstrate that that was like a possible thing that just seemed like a little bit extraordinary for for Democrats to do right now. We're kind of revisiting a topic that was broached by uh Ezra Klene like a year ago, the the pro-life Democrat in in Missouri or whatever state he it was like the worst example he could have given because abortion's not popular uh for the Republican party right now. But, you know, on other things like being more hawkish on the border, being you know more lawfare when it comes to like gun laws, you know, these are I'm I'm not just talking about lying by the way.
I'm talking about like propping up candidates that will connect and resonate with the primary voters of that state and the general voters as well.
Um, so it's not it's not just about like rhetoric. It's about like literally widening the tent and and welcoming people that you know maybe were a part of this coalition 20 years ago but now serve a or going for a district or a state that has been firmly read for like the last two decades. You know, how else do we like build that Obama coalition?
>> Sure. If not, >> well, but this is this is the this is the key difference here that I think keeps getting missed is um like I I heard you say that, oh well, you know, maybe maybe they should be more lzair on regulations about firearms. And it's like the Democrats should be more lzair about firearms because it's a popular policy. It shouldn't be the Democrats are the problem and I'm the savior and I I'm Graham Platner and I'm not going to ban assault weapons. the it should the problem is with the policy and unpopular policy should be challenged on a policy level but not as a party and and I I think that that's the big problem is that we need to be able to grow as a party and if we if we move forward on the policies with our candidates then that's great but we also need to bring the party along with it. I mean that's that's the repair that needs to come.
Well, I I think I think some people have the goal of like perfect unonymity or like more unity within the party. I think I have a opposite goal like I you know like my goal is to you know be an actual big 10 party because I don't think it is possible to to get to enough popularity with voters to have like strong majorities in the Congress and the presidency running like a hyperartisan Democrat or or or rather like what the platform has looked like for maybe like the last like 10 years. Like I think I think we have to be a party of people that you know >> roll out the welcome mat for people who kind of buck the current orthodoxy.
>> I don't disagree with that. But I do think at the same time we need to make it more attractive to come into the tent, right? We need to make it like these R + 10 districts and things like that.
>> It's because they do not like Democrats, right? There's a I forget what district it is, but there's districts uh I wish I could remember off the top of my head.
I'm blanking on it, but they run the Democratic candidate drops out so that the independent can run because >> Nebraska in state of Nebraska.
>> Yeah. The people won't vote for someone with a D next to their name. They just won't do it. Right. And so we run the independent as the actual candidate that we want to run. And I >> that's actually not even the case. He's not going to co he's not going to coalition with He's not going to caucus with the Democrats. But but but the Democrats know they can't win their seats. Like it's No, but better than the Republican, right?
>> Yeah. That's a smart decision. Yes. Yes.
>> But the problem is the problem is with that strategy is it it just kicks the can down the road further and further and further. And what I am talking about is the need uh and I think what Bishop is talking about as well and he can speak for himself though is the need to rebuild the Democratic brand. And I think that the responsibility, and I'll disagree with Destiny here, the responsibility is on people who run in a uh competitive or even a a lean R district, right? I think that they do bear some responsibility. Again, I'm not asking for complete and total lock step, purity testing, all that [ __ ] What I'm asking for is you simply don't call the DNC the Epstein class. you don't throw Chuck Schumer, Pelosi, Biden, all of our leadership under the bus because one, I don't think that it will work long term, not for the Democratic party. It might work for that specific candidate, but long term, it it it's led us to the place that we are today. And the place that we are today is not not great.
>> And and Hutch, I think uh you know, for for me, I want what what you just described, which is a Big 10 organization. I I would like uh for there to be Democrats of all flavors, right? I'm I'm a Virginia. I am uh you know a very typical like southern Democrat where I I I think a lot of other Democrats would consider me a moderate Democrat on on a lot of issues like the Second Amendment for example.
And uh and yeah, you know, like and maybe this is just like me projecting, but like what I want to see from my uh from my politicians and from this big tent party is us bringing these policies into the Democratic party so that the voters can say, "Yeah, but the Democrats uh the Democrats do right in in our in our elections on our state politics, you know, we don't we don't have as much of an aversion to this." Because one of the things like what we saw with Kla Harris was she just carried so much baggage.
She carried so much baggage because people were associating all all these negative things with her even though she was campaigning on an entirely different issue. And I I think it's a matter of uh if we're going to build that big tent then we we need to be able to associate those new ideas with the Democratic party.
I I just I'm fully I believe that the reputation that the parties have comes from the media. I don't think individual politicians can do almost anything to change this and looking to politicians themselves to to try to change this I just think is I think it's a fool's errand. I think it's impossible. I I think the president is enormously influential in terms of for the incumbent party. Yeah.
>> And so like Obama Obama had a huge um hugely positive impact for like the party brand not just here in the states but you know across the world. Um you know he had some some problems like obviously with the the ACA being unpopular.
>> Crushed how many how many was it six sessions in a row or whatever that that they didn't have majorities in the in the Congress? Didn't he have a [ __ ] Congress for so long?
>> That's because he spent all the political capital that he had. And and not just him, but you know, Democrats voted for the ACA knowing that they were going to lose their seats. So like, you know, they did sacrifice. I mean, that's that is what political capital is. It's just like losing seats to get a policy across the finish line. And at the same time, that happened at, you know, uh, after the housing crash. So, I mean, he was going to have a rough go of it regardless. But he is by far the most popular politician in the country. I I believe to this day definitely the most popular Democrat in the country. And so, you know, Biden just wasn't he was a good um president. He did good policies for the most part, but he just was just a horrible spokesman. And unfortunately, I think that's a big part of the job.
So, I think a lot of the the damage that you guys are worried about in terms of the brand and like how do we fix that? A lot of that falls on who the Democratic primary v voters pick in 2028. And then after that, it depends on how they govern.
>> C. I mean, certainly there are other factors at play here. It's not just any one thing. There's no unfortunately magic solution or magic bullet that we can use to fix all the problems of the Democratic party. Um that's just not possible and I think it's beyond the scope of this conversation. I do disagree with Destiny though that nothing that the candidates do can really fix this issue and it's mostly it's all the media's fault. I would agree that the media absolutely bears a lot of the blame here and how they talk about it and how streamers and influencers and journalists and etc. all uh frame these issues and discuss these issues absolutely matters. I would never disagree. But I do I I just reject the notion that there's nothing Democratic politicians or candidates can do to change that fact. I think that if they are wise and message better and are have better rhetoric that it can mitigate some of the problems that come from a negative media environment or a corrupt media environment that we find ourselves in. And to think otherwise is just why do anything at all? Why just not why not just [ __ ] get up there and say a bunch of slurs and then just let the media do what they do, right?
You mean like the Republicans do?
>> I mean, are they winning right now?
>> I mean, it >> Let's not do this.
>> Yeah, >> let's not do this.
But >> I I mean, one of the things that I'm I'm really worried about is like we see that like the state the state of the modern uh Republican party is, you know, like a lot of people and I I swear Kla Harris got so much flack for this. And maybe I just see this more because I'm in the pro- Ukraine space, but the truth is the the more moderate run uh the the uh the calling to these other values and and saying, "Hey, we you know, we are defenders of democracy. We are defenders of these values." It did bring a lot of people that are traditionally conservative over to the Democratic side. I mean, I I inhabit a space of politics where all of the Reagan Republicans [ __ ] hate Trump and they [ __ ] hate MAGA and they they are at least not voting if they're not uh, you know, converted on the political side and and we've seen we've seen uh groups of people flop from, you know, voting for Obama and then millions of people went from Obama to voting for uh Donald Trump. And so I I think that there there is a manner of being able to like win voters over um it depends I mean on on leadership and um you know I I agree Destiny that um we have such a such a very particular media environment and uh the the way that media influences uh public opinion and things of that matter is something that our brains are just categorically they're just not evolved to handle.
Um, and the the media has gotten very good at uh taking advantage of that. But I I also think that like at the end of the day, it's leadership that's responsible for these things. It's the it's party leadership. It's political leadership and they are the ones that we're supposed to look to to move us forward as a society.
I just I I feel like I want to point out that part of Trump's success or a big part of you would say a crucial part of his success in 2016 was kind of torching the Republican party. Like the you know I don't like that this is the case but where we're at right now with the electorate is probably a vast majority of the country is dissatisfied with both parties. And we can do the thing where we can get really wonky and explain well no actually the border wasn't as big of a problem because of this and this. Like you've already kind of lost the debate at that point. It's just these are really complex issues, especially when you get into like policy, right? And so for me, it just makes more sense to just >> not necessarily fight against the current vibes and like use those vibes to to your strength. And you're not per you don't have to permanently toss the party under the bus, but >> we're going to have to rebuild at some point. And in order to do that, you you can't you can't ignore like how voters feel even even if those feelings are wrong.
>> I understand. But here, one of the one of the things you just said is is is precisely my worry. You are correct. In 2016, one of the major reasons that Donald Trump was able to be successful, not only in the primary, but in the general election, is because he torched the Republican party as a whole. That has had disastrous effects for the Republican party, the Republicans's brand. It has more Yeah, it's basically dead. It's a hollowedout shell. It's now infested by parasites called maga. Yeah, but Trump is completely >> They'll be back in 2032, bro. They're They don't worry. They'll be fine. It's American politics. We go back.
>> But Trump is what's happened to their values in the meantime. I mean, the the the uh uh the Iran Warhawks in the Republican party are crying themselves to sleep right now.
>> Yeah, that's fine. But this didn't happen because purple because exposed Republicans in competitive races decided to torch the party. It was because the guy who won the presidential election, who should be the biggest champion of your party, was completely antithetical to the party. I think it's a different like I I don't think I would want if somebody is running for president. I don't know if I want the person running for president to throw the entire Democratic party under the bus.
>> Even if it would win I you're asking hypotheticals that are that are almost antithetical to what would you even imagine of a Democratic candidate to be?
Like if you're saying like would you want somebody to win the Democratic candidacy if they pledged to like have the Aryan race, you know, secede as like the master race of the United States? I I can't I don't hyperbolic.
>> I'm not being hyperbolic. the the Democratic Party brand, I would argue, has been relatively consistent through time, at least in my lifetime. Like, if you look at the politics of Clinton compared to the politics of Obama compared to the politics of Biden, there's like a relative amount of stability there. So, it's hard for me to fathom a hypothetical where you say, "Well, what if the next person running for office was able to win by throwing all the previous uh Democratic establishment under the bus?" and >> you wouldn't have to you wouldn't have to throw all the previous establishment under the bus, but I can imagine an AOC or a similar style candidate, even though I think AOC is is has moderated quite a fair bit, and I actually kind of like her now. Um, but that's beside the point. I can imagine a candidate like that getting up and saying, "Hey, Democrats have been the problem. we the Clinton the era of Clinton, Obama and Biden just hasn't worked and we need to do something different and we need to really change this and and go off on the most populist brain rot you can possibly imagine and I can imagine that candidate possibly winning in this environment.
But I think that that would be a disaster.
>> Yeah, I think that would be bad because it would set the tone from the very top that would completely change the party.
I think that would be bad. We would want these other people in exposed districts if they had to to win. We would want them to potentially distance from the Democratic Party brand in service of furthering the Democratic party's political goals. If the president or person running for president throws the entire Democratic party under the bus, well then it seems like we're moving now on a different path to to further a different set of goals, which depending on the person, it probably I probably wouldn't be okay with.
>> Sure. But one of the problems that we're having and one of the things that I am concerned about and one of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation is because I feel like people like Platner, uh, people like the guy who just won in Philadelphia, what was his name? Um, >> yeah, >> maybe it wasn't I might have been Philadelphia. It might have been somewhere else. Anyway, um, what they're doing is they're building a precedent.
And this precedent is going to be referenced, argued for, uh, advocated for, and possibly even used by candidates going forward, not just in, um, competitive districts, but districts all over the nation. because and one of the things about politics is it has become nationalized in a way it wasn't 20 30 40 years ago and that has had uh unfortunate effects and I think that this precedent that's being set and this precedent that we set by saying it's okay to trash the the Democrats um if it helps you win is going to be used by ad actors to make that the new normal and it's a problem and it's we for playing into it. And I don't think we need to. Frankly, I don't think we need to do that to win. I don't think it's necessary.
>> Yeah. And by the way, if you can only win by throwing the party under the bus and by throwing Biden as a whole under the bus, you don't deserve to win. Like there I there is just this huge problem.
Tell me how we're looking at the state of Maine while Graham Platner is tripping over uh over obstacle over obstacle over obstacle and nobody else has the ability to step forward and uh take charge in that election. J Mills was still in the election and she wasn't able to capitalize on the absolute implosion that he's facing. And so like yeah >> that's more on that's more on Schumer.
Schumer is more to blame for all that than than anybody else. He recruited Mills and then they didn't support her.
And so, you know, I I think I think Platiner is a a bit of an anomaly. I I still think right now, even though we're seeing some high-profile like DSA types win elections across the country, they are for the most part like almost exclusively limited to already like very blue.
>> Yeah. But I'm I'm worried about the rhetoric that they use becoming normalized because I think that the rhetoric matters. I think that the rhetoric of course drives perception and I think perception matters in how people vote. Like you said, people have the memory of goldfish in a lot of ways and that comes to policy too, right? Um, you can have the best policy in the world and I think Biden had great policies in a lot of ways didn't matter because the rhetoric, right, wasn't communicated properly. The and a whole bunch of other issues as well and then we have what we have today. not because Biden failed as a president and his policies but because of how those policies were communicated interpreted um and all the other things surrounding it and I think that yeah we are in kind of crisis mode right here who which who said here that wasn't Obama the best or whatever most memoriz memorable president or whatever did he destroy >> Democratic party brand like didn't Obama kind of run as an outsider a little bit right that was Hillary's nomination I I'm hold on I'm sorry I'm dramatically unders saw it. Obama definitely ran as an outsider. Um Hill Hillary was like the c candidate who was supposed to win that election. Like when Obama entered that primary, it was I don't want to say he was quite as behind as like Bernie, but I don't think many people saw that as that serious initially and then he gained a lot of popularity and then that was considered a huge upset. And I feel like Obama talked quite a bit, right?
Hope and change, hope and change, hope and change about changing, you know, the direction of the country and everything else. So I don't think that did lasting damage to the party there. I I think there are ways to message separately.
>> There's a difference.
>> I'll let Bishop take it.
>> Yeah. I I I you're completely right, but I once again this is the difference in rhetoric that we're talking about.
There's a big difference in talking about repair and you know talking about hope and change and talking about demolition which is saying that we need to overthrow the entire system because they're all a part of the Epstein class.
I think that there's a outrageously uh important difference. And one of the things that Wick is talking to, it's so funny as as we're talking, I I'm I'm kind sometimes getting swayed a little bit and then and then I'm getting swayed back and forth as we continue to talk about this, but the rhetoric is is so so so important because I I think about somebody like Zoran Mani. So our mom Donnie very popular uh right now seeming uh very very successful but because he's in office and because the rhetoric he's used was allowed and because he he is encouraging more of that rhetoric he's backing somebody who seems to uh almost uh almost explicitly uh be against aid to Ukraine because she's the DSA candidate. Uh I I mean she apparently her campaign severed contact with progressive victory when they started trying to corner her about her position on Ukraine. And then when you look at somebody like let's let's give another example with Bernie Sanders who didn't even win the election but because we accepted his rhetoric into the party and we incorporated it into the party we've just had 10 years of him endorsing nightmare after nightmare in American politics whether they're political pundits whether they're political uh candidates and it it just goes to show that the spread of this stuff it needs to be addressed and and we can't pretend I think it is so silly to to sit here and be like, "Oh, well, the rhetoric on a winning campaign isn't going to impact the perceptions of a political party." I I I don't understand how you could even really make that argument.
>> I think I would agree real quick. I would agree on both of those points, although maybe these people could do better for endorsements, but I think that furthers my argument that this is the maybe the job of people who are in super ultra safe blue seats. like Bernie and Mani are not facing heavy Republican opposition and I think sometimes our furthest left in the country maybe spends a little bit too much time criticizing the party rather than trying to build the brand up. Um I don't know if I would go as far as to say Mi has done a poor job of that. I feel like for the most part I I know this particular candidate people feel a certain type of way about the Ukraine stuff but um I mean this these are not vulnerable seated people that are doing big damage to the party I don't think.
um of of all the sitting members of Congress, how how often are we are we thinking about or centering their campaign rhetoric in the last campaign that they did in the discourse? Like I feel like that just like never happens.
Like you get >> it only happens when it's a problem, right?
>> Well, what do you mean?
>> Well, what what do you mean? I'm I'm saying like a year. Let's say Platner wins. Like do you think in a year we're going to be talking about his campaign rhetoric or do you think we're going to be talking about his vote?
>> How much does Federman right now define the average Democrat? How many people in the Democrat are like, "Man, Federman, wow, that's a guy we all should be like." How many Democrats are like, "Man, Mansion at Cinema, these are Yeah.
Wow. That's what we got to be like, guys.
>> I'm sorry.
>> I mean, I'm a big man, but the mix >> I'm saying that Mansion Hold on. You're you're Hold on. Why you trying to trick the [ __ ] out of me, Hutch? When you say you're a mansion fan, you meant that you mean that you were a fan of the Democratic senator in West Virginia, right? But I imagine you probably wouldn't have been h >> you wouldn't have been happy with him if he was like a California senator or like like a New York senator, right?
>> Correct.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That Yeah. What I mean is that like these guys who are in the vulnerable seats that sometimes have like these positions that are a little bit not in line with the party or or a little bit out of line with the party, they don't define the rhetoric for the rest of the party. It's not like the whole party became mansion and cinemas.
The whole party didn't become hasn't become John Federman's because of the people who are in the vulnerable areas, you know, having off-brand tastes.
>> Yes. But in the area like the person who sits in uh Mansion's seat, I believe, is a Republican now.
>> Yeah.
>> Because again, Mansion built his brand, but it did nothing for the Democratic brand. And in fact, I think that was perfect example of the problem that we have. We It worked for Mansion and it worked for no one else. Because the Democratic brand was brought to ruin because of our media. Not because of our Not because of our legislation.
>> No, no, that's not why Mansion That's not why Mansion fell out of fell from grace. His popularity tanked after he supported Biden's agenda and then there was a revolt from West Virginia voters.
Like his support for the ARP and the IRA and the infrastructure bill in a state that's like coal country. You can you can track like his pro approval rating.
It fell off of a cliff when he voted for Biden's agenda. That's what lost him that seat.
>> Yeah.
>> Fair. That's a fair point.
>> Yeah, it's a fair point. And and once again, I I mean, I think that this might just be me being I don't want to say pedantic, but stuck on stuck on the issue where I I think that when you have candidates, let's say in red areas or, you know, purple areas, whatever, um that adopt uh policy issues that run contrary to the typical Democratic party issues, I think that's fine. But I think what's important is to tie that to the Democratic party in that area because like like we're seeing in in some races, uh to be a Democrat is just to be poison. And it's up to leadership, it's up to political leadership, it's up to, you know, these campaigns to be able to change that. And you could say that, oh well, you know, Nancy, how can they how can they change it? These people are nobody on the on the media like stage, right? Is is Nancy Pelosi supposed to fly to rural Kentucky and and craft a political movement or are we supposed to have political leaders from their local areas?
>> First of all, even Nancy Pelosi, I think in what is it two or three midterms ago, was it over the BL? Even Nancy Pelosi was telling people to throw her under the bus if she thought it would help them win their races. That might even be a direct quote from Nancy Pelosi. But what I'm saying is that like Platner does Platner does not have a YouTube channel. Platiner does not have a podcast. He does not have a media presence anywhere. It's just whoever decides to >> Well, >> I mean, he he has a colossal media presence right now. The whole world is listening to everything he says.
>> I'm saying that he can't he cannot craft he can't craft a message. These people in vulnerable areas aren't able to craft messages. Even um G Gavin Newsome is the closest thing maybe that we have to it.
But for the most part, like it's up to the if if you don't have any kind of messaging arm for your party, nobody is going to be able to message for the party. If you were a democ, let's say that you're Ken Martin right now and you want to establish, you know what, the Democratic party, we're going to have a stronger position on Israel, it's going to be no more aid, no defensive whatever weapons. If Israel can't agree to ABC, to some, you know, conditions for peace in the Gaza Strip, to some conditions for normalizing relations with Lebanon and Hezbollah even or whatever the [ __ ] I don't know what it is, but they if Ken Martin wanted to message that, where the [ __ ] would that even go to?
>> Where would you take that message?
>> Are we >> I'm asking you a specific question.
Where would you take that message? What platform?
>> You would find an advocacy group that agrees with you that has this infrastructure in place and you would push it forward.
>> There's nobody. There's nobody. I If I ask you this, I would say Trump I think that for Trump think Trump should say we need to nuke Iran. Okay. Okay. But that's just Trump. Where should Well, actually Trump does have his own media platform. Where did Trump go?
>> Trump could go to Fox News. Trump could go to Joe Rogan. Trump could go to all these platforms. He could put out all and that message will be heard crystal clear and it will ring from the mountain tops, okay, in the United States all the way down to the valleys of California, okay? And everybody will hear that message crystal clear. But that's not because Trump is a great messenger or because they're on point or whatever else. It's because their whole media apparatus is built out to message these things. You're you're I think you're just you're asking too much from from vulnerable seated Dems for people who are running for Congress who have smaller platforms than than you, Wick.
Honestly, like they they have no they can't message anything.
the I'm not making fun of you, but I say like some of these people running for Congress will have like a a Twitter account with like 2,000 followers and then like they get like one like per tweet and nobody knows about them. Their mom [ __ ] runs whatever [ __ ] Maybe for a congressional office is a little larger. But like a lot of these people, they just don't have like the ability to get out here and have like massive messages to repair the Democratic party brand. So everything they do is just going to be the detriment to themselves without really helping the Democratic brand at all. Trying to do some impossible mission of rehabilitating a brand that they they have no control over. Yeah. I'm asking specifically for them to do no harm because you better believe that that message of them calling all the Democrats an Epstein class will be picked up by media apparatuses that are >> I don't think they should call all the Democrats the Epstein class. I don't think anybody's done that though. But I don't think they should do that.
>> I I mean I also Sorry, Hutch, you you go on.
>> No, you go ahead.
>> Yeah. I I just I find it a little bit odd to be making the argument that we aren't going to be holding political leaders accountable because they don't personally run CNN and they don't have a lot of Twitter followers. Like I I I maybe I'm just completely delusional, but I feel like the political leadership is responsible for political messaging within a political party. And I I also think that it's I I mean and you could talk this frankly is a political party responsibility, not a political candidate responsibility to be able to provide access to the media for those political candidates to get that message out. But it's still the political candidates and not the news anchors that are getting the message out. I I I feel like this is like almost a weird little technicality.
>> It sounds like a weird It's not absolving. Okay. Why? Why?
Okay.
>> I I mean I I I completely I I understand exactly what what you're saying about like, okay, well, if Trump wanted to stand at a podium and say something, nobody would be able to hear them unless there was a camera there, >> giving them like friendly like suckoff coverage, right? Mallerie McBur sucked on the Matt Bernstein show. Slutkin sucked on Breaking Points. And when I say sucked, I don't mean they had a bad performance. They did the best they could, but they were thrown to the to the lion's den. You're never coming out of interviews like that with a strong message and with people looking at you like, "Oh yeah, this is a candidate I want to back." It's like, "Did you [ __ ] survive the experience?" And if every single Democratic politician has to go into some environment where the where the goal is to just [ __ ] survive and hope you don't give somebody a clip to, you know, character assassinate you with, you're not going to do anything. You're just, it's a it's a it's hopeless. Well, would you agree that the uh the media apparatuses that do that that you're discussing uh are are toxic to the Democrat brand that are >> No, that's why I said at the very beginning of this I was like different responsibilities. Whatever rhetoric we're talking about for the Democratic brand here, um you know, if you got to if you got to under the bus him a little bit to to win in a vulnerable state, then fine. That's not what I think the media should be doing. What didn't we just get our 57th [ __ ] book announced yesterday about Biden sel? I think I saw some [ __ ] guy was writing like Jesus Christ.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I saw.
>> [ __ ] me, dude.
>> What was Jack Jake Tappard book or is >> No guy some XY [ __ ] loser. Yeah, [ __ ] him. But >> understand if you as a candidate know, and you should know, I think it's your responsibility if you're going to run for office to know that these media environments exist, right? Then you know that if you give anti-democratic messaging, this media apparatus will pick it up and propagate it and spread it for you. And if you want airtime, which you probably do as a candidate, right, with 2000 who your mom runs the account, right? Um then you're going to be uh looking to try to do that. And that's part of the problem. These problems go hand inand they're not unrelated or disconnected. It's part of a there are different bricks that are making up a wall that are uh keeping us out of power in in a large way. And I'm asking the brick right in this incident.
It's a candidate. Don't give ammo to these people.
>> I I don't think you can I don't think you can um eliminate that tension. That tension within the Democratic party is just always going to be there. Like you're gonna have you're gonna have politicians like I don't want to learn AOC and now Chris Rab and and you're gonna have these other these other politicians in the Democratic party.
There's going to be a wide cavern between them on policy and like I I just I don't know how to get rid of the tension >> worse than it's ever been.
>> Yeah. I don't I don't think we like I don't think this is running it's ever been.
>> Wait, but why is it worse than it's ever been?
>> It's worse than it's ever been. nothing to do with the Democrats. It has everything to do with the fact that Republicans have defined what the Democratic Party is for like the past decade.
>> Well, what does everybody jerk off on the left and right about what Kamla's worst ad was, which I don't think it was like statistics being our worst ad, but everybody jerks off about it was like the Kla is for a day them and Donald Trump is for [ __ ] loser fat [ __ ] American trailer park trash. Okay, the how the [ __ ] is this even a message when Kla didn't spend any of her [ __ ] time talking about trans people in her entire [ __ ] campaign? This was a This was the same in like 2019. Is that Kala's fault for messaging? Was it an exposed Democrat's fault? No, it's because the Republican media apparatus has defined what the Democratic party is. Like we're looking to polic or being perceived as hyper progressive when in 2019 she was making public advoc advocations for how we could figure out to legislate reparations >> in 2019. In 2024, Donald Trump called herself the president of no new wars.
And in 2025, we just lost the worst war in US history. Well, I mean like this IS IT'S A MEDIA PROBLEM.
>> TRUMP is Trump is absolutely ridiculous and what he gets away with and I'm too smallrained to understand how he gets away with >> he doesn't get away with it because of politicians gets away with it because of the because of Fox News, because of the media.
>> That's but it's there's no politician that could have made Trump as popular as it is. It's the relationship between media and political class on the Republican side where their whole messaging apparatus is done by the media. They don't have they don't think about this. They don't think about how to message a policy thing. The media does it for them. And then on the Democratic side, you're trying to message into a into a an entire world that is hostile towards you. That's not possible.
>> I I think two things can be true at once. I think uh obviously uh we have a really horrific media environment. I think the uh the liberal movement and the Democratic party at large needs to outrageously uh look at the their failures in the media environment and what they can do to remedy that. Um and I I think that's true, but simultaneously I I just I and I might just be misinterpreting things, but I I feel like the direction this conversation is going is that we we we there is no real room to hold political leadership responsible for the things they say. And there there is no uh like fun at the end of the day it's not up to the political leaders that are running to be governors to be congressmen to be pre well not president because we've and I agree we've established that some races are more important than others but I feel like we're making the argument that it isn't their responsibility.
They're they're absolved of whatever they say because at the end of the day it doesn't even matter because the media is going to spin it negatively. So [ __ ] it. Say whatever you want. They're not absolutely there's a bigger problem.
Doesn't mean this isn't a problem.
>> There's obviously a boundary. I don't want somebody going up there and saying like, "I don't support Biden because I think he ate children." Okay. Obviously, there is going to be some boundary, but I'm just saying that messaging and Democratic party.
>> What about you?
>> What's What's the question? Is there a boundary? I feel like I answer go up and say Biden loved eating children and they were guaranteed to win.
>> No. No. That would be too far. So, yes, there's Yes, there's a theoretical >> serious. You've you've bitten some bullets in the past, Hutch. Okay. You've bitten some >> No, I'm more thinking about like like actual concrete policy vulnerabilities for the party. Like, I think it's fair game for conservative Democrats running in red districts to basically fully toss Biden under the bus when it comes to the border. Like, I do think >> Yeah, I agree.
>> I do I do think he [ __ ] up on the border a bit by not addressing it until the 11th hour. He addressed it earlier, but Republicans didn't want to do anything on legislation. Don't give any anything.
>> They were like they try they were like on like at the midnight of passing legislation and then Trump asked >> they were but that bill I think had been in like had been in discussion for like 2 years. But there were there was like it was thing after thing after thing. It was COVID coming in the recovery from that. It was October 7th. It was [ __ ] Russia Ukraine. It was so much. And then like by the time we got back on the Yeah. Sorry.
>> Biden and the Democrats they they I mean they passed. Hold on.
>> Wait, hold on.
>> This is a perfect illustration. Hutch, >> real quick. Hold on. Hold on real quick.
Um Biden and the Democrats, they passed a partisan bill through the House. It was filibustered in the Senate and so it was killed. But that's not really like honestly trying to do something about the border. And uh we did see just an explosion of border encounters, you know, some some some way into 2021 to the point where it was like the highest level of border apprehensions I think ever sustained for like several months and he didn't really like do like he was spending most of his time. Trump got to say nobody comes over because of health reasons and then we lost it. They tried to fight it back. The issue is that unfortunately Biden was not an authoritarian [ __ ] demon who would just arbitrarily executive order what should be done via legislation, right?
that that the limit caps that we wanted for pass crossing the border or whatever to to cap that if there were too many people came over. Trump just did that via [ __ ] EO because he doesn't care about the legality of it. That was part of the legislation they tried to do with Biden. They tried to bring back Title 42 to stop the crossings from coming over.
>> Biden Biden didn't to cap the border to to cap the amount of people that Yeah, >> he might have at some point, but I well maybe at the very end I know they I know they tried to bring back Title 42, but the Supreme Court said no, you're not allowed to do that anymore. And then you had the whole wave of people that wanted to come in naturally just cuz there like the world was kind of shut down for like 6 months at least during the co [ __ ] and then once it came once it was >> I'm not blaming him. I'm not blaming him for that. I I understand like it wasn't his fault that that many people showed up. I mean there was there were a lot of things outside of his control.
>> Do you understand how a candidate in a u a redder district pushing the narrative that it was his fault and he did do all these things paints a false narrative what happened and it makes Democrats look bad worse on the board. five candidates from purple areas are able to overcome the two or 300 other elected then [ __ ] us. Then who cares and we deserve to lose every other point anyway. That's crazy. It can't it can't possibly be that their ability to >> signal lightly some distance that that it destroys the party.
>> The straw that breaks the camel's back doesn't mean it isn't a straw on the back that will eventually break.
>> No, but wait. By the time we get to 2028, like and I'm not saying this is going to happen, but I hope it does. Um, by the time we get to 2028, if the primary Democratic primary voters choose someone that's like a generational talent like Obama, none of the rhetoric from these from these senators campaigns are going to matter. Like that person is going to be the representative for the party and they're going to be >> I'm not going to rely on that though.
I'm not going to Oh, if we have a miracle candidate, then might we we it might not matter. Okay.
>> Gavin Newsome in AOC right now. I don't it's not looking good in 2026. I know we have two years, but like it's looking really bad >> in for for 2028.
>> Yeah.
>> Why?
>> I know. I know. I said I said we still have two years, but it's like Kla Harris is still leading in the polls. Like I I I think we uh we we need to be a little bit more intentional.
>> But this has kind of always been the game though. This is like it's a game of inches. You win every seat you can and then you hope that the primary voters choose like a strong leader. we had generational talents with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and then, you know, Joe Biden comes around. He's just not that guy in terms of messaging. But that's that's kind of always been the game.
Like you you just claw every seat that you can get and then you elect the most capable, charismatic, you know, effective messenger uh and an effective like um uh politician.
>> You seem to understand the game of inches when it comes to these things, but not when it comes to rhetoric. The game of inches matters there too. And what you're doing is you're sacrificing these uh policies and not the perception of Democrats as a whole in order to maybe right possibly have a better chance at winning a specific seat. And I'm saying that this is this is you're drinking poison that will eventually kill us.
>> I don't even know whose messaging is being cited so much as like being destructive to the Democratic party brand. Like is this even >> Right now it's Platers. Right now is the the biggest example we got is Platner. I are is that even like really like the I I don't I don't maybe I just am not that plugged into the media. Hold on. No, no.
I know Democrats have an issue with him for for decent reasons, but like are Republicans undermining Democrats in other districts legitimately because of stuff Platner has said or done. Is this >> you Alaska is going to be running against Platner. Texas is going to be running against Platner.
>> We'll see how that we'll see how it turns out. Like clip it and ship it.
>> Clip it and ship it. I I would be shocked if Telerico is an ultra competitive candidate in Texas and they're running like the party of platiner ads. I don't know. I feel like they'd be more likely to still focus on um on like AOC or something. That just seems crazy to me. Also, the Republicans, I don't know. I mean, they'll probably host of it, right?
>> People like Biden, >> they are going to run ads that are going to try to that are going to try to tie the party to Platner. But his problem is not his rhetoric. His problem is he has a [ __ ] Nazi tattoo and lied about it.
and it's just like a mess. You know what I mean? Like there's plenty of other >> Democratic problem, but yeah, that is that is >> No, I don't I don't think so. I mean, not not on a national level. Like I don't you're not seeing like ads go up in the Pelola race, you know, focusing on some DSA candidate in in uh Philadelphia or whatever.
>> I think that populist just real quick, I think populist rhetoric is poison and it is harming us.
>> Agreed. In the media, >> not not from not from politicians. I don't think politicians are going to are going to be caring or dramatically changing the perception of the Democratic party in in vulnerable districts. I just don't think it's going to happen.
>> But that's my perspect I disagree.
Bishop go.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean um I I I I actually agree with uh Hutch and and and this is sort of the foundation of my argument and I' I've said it a couple times and I I feel like this is sort of the uh the uh disagreement here is that like for example uh Hutch was describing the uh difficulties of the Biden administration with immigration and uh I I appreciate the library of uh of timestamps that uh Destiny has about the uh evolution of that uh stuff in Congress. But from my perspective, I when I think about Biden and the immigration, I'm thinking about the standoffs between the Texas National Guard and the DHS trying to let people across the border and things of that nature that got really heavily put on Biden. And so I do think that uh you need candidates that are facing those issues to have the freedom to be able to say on these issues, on these specific issues, me as an individual or me as a competitive candidate is going to diverge from Biden or the typical Democratic party. But I I think that it's important to differentiate it uh that it's the the chasm is on the issues and not on the community, not on the party, not on the D because that is how we get the big tent. We get the big tent by saying southern Democrats are just built different. You just have to accept it. You just have to accept that blue dog Democrats, they're going to believe things that people in New England don't.
And that's what a Democrat is. And that's what a blue dog Democrat is. And that's what a moderate Democrat is. And that's what a man Democrat is.
>> A question for you, Bishop, actually, because I'm very curious. Do you think that there's any what would you consider necessary beliefs to be a Democrat, if any? Is there a necessary policy position, belief system, uh, value that you have to hold or you you're just not led into the tent?
>> Yeah. I I mean I would say that fundamentally you need to believe in the core principles of liberalism and that needs to be um I I mean frankly I think that our political leadership should be able to explain this on a political science level. Not necessarily in their campaign speech but like they should at least give us the top three then >> um I mean I I would say uh gosh I wish I had notes in front of me for like the the principles. Uh but I you need to be more aligned than not. I don't know if there's like a particular northstar policy for me at this point. Maybe if I thought about it core principle that you would point to say you kind of got to believe in this.
>> Yeah. I mean >> I would say uh to to define it I'd say lock and liberalism would would really be where you need to be to be a Democrat. And I I think uh where I would actually differ from Hutch where you need to be more aligned than not is I think one of the biggest problems in the world that the Democrats have right now is trying to understand the difference between um uh between a liberal Democrat and a progressive Democrat. And I believe the reason why it's so difficult to understand the differences in these two is because they are way more aligned than not. They are very closely aligned, but some of it doesn't line up and some of it leads to pretty disastrous differences and we're still trying to figure that out. And the short answer to why there is that difference is because there's an underlying political philosophical difference. And that's why you have progressive Democrats that are like, I don't agree with Asan [ __ ] but I don't hate him. And then you have liberal Democrats that are like, I think Hassan [ __ ] is the devil. And so that's how you wind up with those two things.
Even though the progressive Democrat and the liberal Democrat agree on like 99% of the issues at >> Isan net positive even among Democrats in the polling.
>> [ __ ] >> I don't think he is.
>> I I He's 77% unknown uh minus 10% uh liability. Yeah, but there were there were there were there was like a breakdown with like specific demographics in a poll. Just like >> I don't know the demographic breakdown off.
>> I know that the demographic breakdown is that the largest group of people that like him are people who live with their parents.
>> I remember that he [ __ ] dominated with them.
>> Why would you ask that on a poll?
>> And then parents, it was the craziest thing ever in that poll. And then par among parents who had children at home, he pulled it, he had 0% favorable. So like the kids that are watching his streams that live at home with their parents, it's like they he they [ __ ] love him and then the parents >> is amazing.
>> Yeah.
>> I I've never heard of a poll that's like, "How do you feel about this person and do you live with your parents?"
>> Yeah. Wow.
>> It's a weird question to ask, but they did. But I guess that Well, that that's one of the problems I think that the Democratic party has is when you ask them, okay, what does it mean to be a Democrat?
What does that mean? Right? Like that's a question that is very very hard to get an actual answer to pe from people. And I've asked this question a few times in interviews and in uh panels I've done and things like that. It's really hard.
I'm curious your answer, Destiny. Like Hutch here says, "Well, you just have to be more aligned than not like 51% aligned, I guess." Uh we'll do it. And uh Mr. Bishop, was Locky liber lockin, I'm sorry. Lock in liberals. Do you have an answer for us, Destiny? I'm curious.
>> For what? Like on a national level?
>> What does it mean? What what what does it mean to be a Democrat? What if any core principles do you need to hold to consider yourself a Democrat or to be considered a Democrat?
>> I mean, it's going to be hyperontextual in time. Do you mean to vote Democrat or do you mean like to closely align?
>> No. To be a Democrat, not just to vote for us, but to be one.
>> I don't know. It's probably some general broad principles of like social democracy. So, you roughly believe that Americans need some assistance from government redistribution on the economic side um to create more opportunities for people to go to school, get jobs or whatever else. Um, and then all the basic like classical liberal stuff. But I mean that that would have been the old like distinction between a Democrat and a Republican. But I but right now we have a Republican party that's just absolutely [ __ ] insane. So I don't know. It's hard to define a single party without like an opposition party. But >> I think >> I think part of the issue here, Wick, is with a two-party system, you have to consolidate in a way that is a bit unnatural. So like if you go to European countries that have anywhere between like five and 15 political parties, you have these different identities that get to have the the different groups that get to have their own political identity. And so it it becomes a lot harder to come up with like an all-encompassing sort of category or criteria for what it means to be a Democrat in a party with like you know 100 million people or something or 80 million people, however many registered Democrats there Traditionally, we would define ourselves in opposition to the Republican party. Like there's going to be issues that that we have like tension between. So like if you go back like 10 years to like the neocons, we would define ourselves as people that are a bit more dovish when it comes to foreign policy. Maybe more diplomacy vers first versus just bombing people going to wars. Ideally, um we'd be in favor of greater social welfare, uh more redistributive tax policy, um you know, more public funding for things like schools or whatever. Like these would be in opposition to the Republicans that are on the other side of that. But right now, I think being a Democrat is just it's a 95 or higher IQ test or a morality test. And and if you're not in that camp, then you're a [ __ ] demon or [ __ ] in my opinion.
>> Being anti Oh, go ahead.
>> Opposition to Trump is like a big part of the Democratic party brand right now.
>> Kind of. Yeah.
>> I >> But that's a terrible That's a terrible political movement.
>> Terrible idea. You resolve if I'm a Marxist Linist.
>> Look, I will take I will take anyone's vote. Like I don't care who you are, what you believe, what you identify as.
I don't care if you want to vote for the same same person I do. I will take your vote. Like that I I I don't think is in contestation here, right? We're not contesting that. But when I I do think we need a stricter guideline than on what it means to be a Democrat than we don't like Trump. I think it just needs to be more than that.
What does it mean to be changing fundamentally in a way that's going to be disastrous?
>> No. Right now, what it means to be a Democrat is probably going to have a lot of overlap between I would hope most moral people and like what it means to be an American. Like we if we don't have an opposition party, how the [ __ ] do you even define what a Democrat is? Like in my mind, the Republican party is not a real serious political party in the United States right now. So I don't know. I I don't know how I would define the Democratic party in a way that separates it from just like what what I think an average American ought to be.
Um, and then without an opposition party to define ourselves against, I just don't know what you I don't even know what you would say about that.
>> It's the inevitable. It's the inevitable outcome of being the opposition party.
Like, how did the Republican party define themselves when Obama was president? Being anti-Obama, like the party is going to have a better identity once we nominate a president before at least before Trump, the Republican party had a throughine. Yes, they did uh do a lot of anti-Obama stuff and they were kind of seen as the opposition party in a lot of ways, but it meant more to be a Republican back in 2000 or 1990 than it does like than just I'm against the Democrats and to be a Democrat than just I'm against Republicans.
>> Yeah, it did. But that's because we had opposition parties, right? You have your gay, liberal, coastal elites. Your city people tended to be more Democrat. Your rural people tended to be more Republican. your techy people tended to be more Democrat like yeah we could draw all of these lines but that's because we had an opposition party but but I mean now I mean I don't know what the tech bros are are conservative demons you like I don't know I don't know how you would I mean tell us how would you define Democrat in a way that's like unique from just I guess what you would want like an average American I guess to be right now.
>> Sure.
>> How would you how would you establish an identity?
>> How would I estab Well, these are different questions, right? So I'll answer Destiny's question first. What do I consider someone or what the Democratic party should be, right? Are people who believe in uh free and fair elections? People who believe in >> Hold on, stop being >> I said that's different from an average American. So our opposition party should not believe in free and fair elections.
>> Does the average American believe The average American is looking towards populism, which I don't know if they believe in free, >> but even in their mind, it's still going to be free and fair elections. They're not thinking that like the elections are going to be rigged.
>> Sure, >> the polls are pretty serious. Like there's a pretty substantial amount of Americans that don't believe the polls.
I mean, think about all the Trump There's like 6% of Trump voters believe that Trump didn't legitimately win the election. I mean, >> well, wait, that's different than saying, do you believe that we should have free and fair elections? That's what I thought >> there there. Yeah, there there is a substantial portion of the American populace who are looking for a strong man who this is a real and growing problem in America, right? And I think that these are just that is just one of the conditions. There are others, right?
But it's a box that unfortunately we have to ask, right? Do you actually believe in free and fair elections? Or would you steal one if you could? I think that is a fair question that we have to ask people nowadays.
>> I don't think most of them believe that they're stealing the election though. I think they believe that they do have the popular support on their side. Like for the average voter at least, like the average January 6th Republican was not thinking like, "Fuck, Trump's got to steal the election with these electoral votes." uh they were thinking that the elections had been stolen from them via some huge rigged mail and ballot scheme and that Trump was like trying to show that actually the American population really did vote for Trump uh you know in the majority.
I I don't know if that's true. I think that a lot of them are post hawk rationalizing and they are living with a cognitive dissonance that is causing a lot of anxiety within a lot of them but a lot of them just don't [ __ ] care.
They're psychopaths.
>> The psychopaths are going to be one or two%. I think the average of them are, for all their [ __ ] faults, I love them to death, are going to be like my parents who watch stupid [ __ ] [ __ ] on Facebook and they were in the Air Force and they serve their country and they love this place and they think that the dirty Democrats stole the election with mail and ballots because of biolabs in Ukraine and and Kami La Harris and the Commi News Network and everything else. Unfortunately, as [ __ ] stupid as it is, I I think that's more the average MAGA person than the sociopaths like Ryan Mle or whatever other people should be [ __ ] shipped out of this country in helicopters over the ocean.
My dad and your parents would get along swimmingly. But Wick, I think right now, tactically, in the short term, it is actually the best play for Democrats to be defined as opposition to Donald Trump. While their brand is really bad, Donald Trump is historically unpopular and then they should ramp that up when we actually get the majorities.
>> Yeah, but that's the Yeah, that's the disagreement we're having here, right?
Is yes, I think short term, tactically it probably will work. Like I don't think look I think I think I could win an election in this environment. Okay?
Right? Like I think that anyone who doesn't have an R next to their name will probably do much better in this political environment than they otherwise would. But the problem becomes like what comes next? What comes after?
What happens when Rubio is the freaking nominee and the Democrats built an entire identity off of we are not Trump >> comes out swinging saying that he believes that in the American dream where a Latino can come to the United States of America and accomplish that >> he's going to have but he's he's going to have the same problems that Kla did inheriting the baggage from the administration that she served in and and this is a historically unpopular president. I don't want to get too complacent, but Rubio's not going to have an easy job against literally any candidate right now. It's also Rubio right now.
>> I think it's also, as much as I hate to say this, and as much as I want Democrats to rule forever for the rest of my lifetime, um, when you criticize the opposition and then they end up changing in order to avoid your criticisms. In our minds, we see that as like a snaky, sneaky, whatever, [ __ ] these guys things. But we take a step back, it is significantly better. Rubio, as much as I love my fellow Cuban American, is a significant improvement from Donald Trump. Holy [ __ ] >> Sure is. Yes, he is.
>> Hugely.
>> Yeah, absolutely. And And that's I Yeah.
I I just I I don't think that we should be building our entire identity off of uh being we're not Trump. I I think that there are some Democratic politicians that do. And I think that there are plenty of politicians, Democratic politicians, that don't. And uh and I think that the ones that don't are the ones that are going to have uh the most success long term. Uh it's like uh what coercion can win in a moment, but it loses for centuries. Um so I I yeah I but I I I really am worried about uh I I think that's a great question, Wick.
It's just like sort of the ambivalence about like well what is a Democrat versus what is a Republican? But I I think the the >> we need we need a better answer. No, no, but we have we have but we have a lot of through lines right now. We have a lot of through lines right now with all the campaigns that are going they're focusing on affordability, corruption, and anti-Iran war. That that's that's what's defining the party right now.
>> And that's the rule of law. I think the rule of law is a huge one. And when you look at what's what's going on with this, I mean, frankly, the Trump administration and uh they're skirting around the rule of law and the IRS and all that jazz. Uh, and this is why I I it's kind of a cheesy answer for an audience to say, "Oh, yes, uh, this political philosophy defines what a Democrat is, but I I think it's uh, you know, ordered liberty. I think it's uh, social democracy, and I think it's rule of law and and equality under the law is uh, is the really defining things that make somebody a Democrat."
>> Talk to Destiny about the rule of law.
He's got some ideas.
Um I I I yeah and and that's the concern. It's the the main question I think the main disagreement between you and I Hutch is the long term versus short-term thinking. And I I understand how important the short term is, right?
You can't live long term if you can't survive the short term, right? Like if we get blown out in the short term, it doesn't matter what happens long term because we are suffering now and people need help now and we have a Supreme Court picks coming up soonish, right?
That we will need to fill now. But I don't know if I'm willing to sacrifice everything and anything or as much as you are, I should say, to be a little more fair about it, in order to secure um these short-term gains because I believe that they'll be at the expense of the long-term health of not only our party, but the nation as a whole. And we are going down a path that I do not want to go down when regards populism. And uh to Destiny's point, the media environment does need to be we need to do something. I don't know what right but it needs to happen but we can even in a bad environment take actions or avoid taking actions that will help us and make it more likely that we can be successful not just now but in the long term. That's that's just the disagreement we're having. We I we and I listen I agree with you a million% but there are things where the answer is like it's like blaringly obvious where the huge problems are right now. Like you've got a guy who who is eating no protein, goes to the gym and sleeps like 8 hours a night and you're saying like what if he slept 10 hours a night? What if he slept 12 hours a night? What if he slept 18 hours a night when the reality is he's just not eating enough? Right?
You have this glaringly huge issue and right now it is the media and it is 99% of the problem and trying to say that some Democrats just need to figure out a way to message better if they're an exposed district who is at risk of losing a race when the media apparatus on the right can cover for literally everything. You like you have a you have a media apparatus is Tyler Rico I don't actually know. Is Terico gay?
>> No.
>> No, he's in gay.
>> I don't even know. Okay. I don't even know the Republicans that way. They're like openly like I'm pretty sure like >> AI videos.
>> I'm pretty sure they called him trans.
>> Isn't Lindsey Graham gay? Like >> probably.
>> Well, like probably.
>> Yeah, almost certainly not. But like we don't talk about it because nobody in the media talks about that. But Talerico is getting hit for [ __ ] soy. I don't even know what the [ __ ] they're targeting him on. Or like what happened to you know we're talking about Biden's week on the border and Trump was going to the where's the wall? Did that ever get finished? I don't know. Mexico certainly didn't [ __ ] pay for it. And there were 30 million illegal immigrants supposedly that snuck in over Biden's term and we've deported maybe two million of them. Like the media is winning on all of these points. And it is the media that is doing the heavy lifting on 99% of the messaging here.
It's not the Dem uh the Republican politicians. Uh you know, look at these for all the credit that I give some of them having dropped out. Marjorie Taylor Green was Trump's strongest warrior. And now that she's out of the camp, her messaging carries as far as the Young Turks will carry it, right? she's just not as influential anymore because the media establishment on the right has now tossed her out. So like looking to these politicians to be the one to create the brand is always going to be a fool's errand when the media is like 99% of the issue right now in my opinion.
>> Yeah. The the the disagreement we have here Destiny is while I agree with you 100% that the media is the main problem.
Look I I live by the philosophy when there's little you can do what little you can. And a candidate, however talented, is very, very unlikely to be able to fix our media environment. But what they can control, what they can do is work on their messaging and work on what they can do. And I understand it might not be enough to solve problems.
>> Wait, but the most at least do as little harm as possible.
>> I agree. You're asking though, what is the most important thing that a person running for office can do?
>> Have a have a winning uniform, >> raise a lot of money. No, [ __ ] all that.
No, it's to win the office. That's the that is their job at the end of the day.
Media and messaging is secondary to that. They have to win office. That's the most of all of the foundational politics in a democracy. Winning office is the most important thing because without that nothing else matters.
>> Agree that they should not and well they cannot and should not win at all costs.
>> At all costs. No. But if if a family is struggling to pay their bills, the answer is not to have your 14-year-old drop out of high school to start working at McDonald's because everything is just getting [ __ ] up at that point. Even further down the line, we need to fill seats in Congress. That is the most important thing that matters right now.
Our lift messaging apparatus is in shambles and it sucks [ __ ] like [ __ ] horribly. We are never going to have that fixed by vulnerable Dems potentially losing seats in a in a fool's errand to repair a media apparatus while fighting against Fox News. Never.
It's hard to >> it's hard to know where to how to get into like solutions when you talk about the media stuff. Like what do you have any ideas in terms of how to address that? It just seems like >> the Well, you either one, you either mobilize the military and you destroy Fox News headquarters, you deport Murdoch and Elon Musk, and you bulldoze the ex [ __ ] server farm just to send a message.
>> I'm not sure if kidding or not.
>> You Well, I'm talking about save our country. Okay. or on the lift part, on the lift part, you tell people, hey, you [ __ ] need to message positively for the Democratic party and you need to understand every everybody >> everybody has the rules that they play with, okay? And then when it comes to the Democrats, everybody comes in and then they attack us over the head with our own rules. And for some reason, I don't know how to communicate this cuz Americans are truly [ __ ] [ __ ] and lost on this. Americans have this thing [ __ ] into their skulls about freedom of speech and all this [ __ ] and it's the most important thing in the world and it's virtuous to criticize your own side, but only the Democrats do it and and somebody has to communicate. I don't know if it's the CEOs of these companies, Barry Weiss, she's got to go to Canada or Mexico or to Iran. She's got to be [ __ ] ejected from this country, but the the lib left messaging apparatus has to understand that if you're going to bring a politician on, go look at the interview that Kla Harris and Tim Walls did on CNN on here. If okay, if you want to understand the issues in this country, go look at the interview that Kla Harris and and Walls gave on CNN when they were running for office. And then go look at the very first interview that Donald Trump gave um to the I don't know if she's Hispanic or Indian, the one woman on it's either ABC or NBC and look at the difference where where when a lib is asked questions on a lib platform, it's you said this, you and I know you answered this here. Well, here's a follow-up and then here's another quote from you and are you sure about this? It's a brutal interview. And then Trump is like yes, Master Trump, what do you think about this? Oh, he just told 20 lies. I'm not going to. Okay. And then what about this Trump? Oh, 20 more lies. Okay. What about this Trump? Until that gets fixed, everything else is completely [ __ ] And you know, we can nibble around the edges of everything else, but I think you're better off, honest to God, organizing mass harassment campaigns to go stay outside the homes of like CNN execs until they realize that their messaging is destroying the country. I know that sounds radical. I'm sorry, but like that's that's where I'm at.
>> No, I I mean I I agree. Uh, I agree that fundamentally if we're going to have a change, we are going to have to uh have a massive overhaul of the lib left uh media space. I I don't think we're going to be able to do that by going to the current uh organizers of that mass media space and saying, "Hey, please do it differently or we're going to stake out your house." I think we're going to have to do it by simply uh galvanizing uh lift media.
>> That's Yeah. And and I think and by the way, everybody's everybody's tired of it. This isn't this isn't like a minority of people feel this way. So I do think that there's the motivation to be there, but it's just going to take up programs and organization and intentionality. Um, but I I do I I do think of that one >> just real quick on that just I I don't mean to well I am interrupting but like that this is part of the problem that again bringing this back like these arsonists are look look at when chorus look at chorus right tried to put together a media group that would be positive towards Democrat Democratic messaging liberal messaging and push that [ __ ] it got attacked not from the right >> but from the left right Like it obviously was there. There are arsonists that are within our ranks that are trying to burn any improvement.
>> Listen, this is absolutely true. This is absolutely true. And [ __ ] them. And [ __ ] all of them. But you know what? What?
What is this stupid [ __ ] quotes we used to jerk ourselves off the time?
What? Uh uh the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for uh great men to remain neutral in times of crisis or whatever. Where the [ __ ] was everybody else on the core [ __ ] I I'm not calling out you guys, but I mean like like mainstream media. Where the [ __ ] was anybody defending them? Nowhere, bro.
You can have people defending. You can have people attack Jack Pizzobic and you will get [ __ ] the Republican parts of the establishment coming up to defend this guy who's literally a subhuman and people will I think he has a BOOK CALLED SUBHUMANS TALKING ABOUT LIKE [ __ ] DEMOCRATS. It's crazy. Or unhuman I think is what it's called. Like there is that doesn't exist on the center left.
If if Biden is trying to tell a story about anything, then the entire center left have their com receptacles out to jerk off about how great they are to hold him to account for it. And then on the right, they're like, "How could we sell this [ __ ] lie?" And they hate it. They even know it's a lie. Look at all the leaked messages over the Dominion thing where Tucker Carlson is is literally talking about Sydney Pal.
We caught this [ __ ] [ __ ] lying. I think that's a verbatim quote. This [ __ ] [ __ ] lied to me on my platform and they're STILL AIRING IT AND LYING for her. You can't compete against that.
And the politicians absolutely can't compete against that.
>> Well, I mean the the way that you compete against that is just by drowning it out with more different voices and utilizing better media strategies. I mean there >> media strategy where how give me I need a I need an actionable thing cuz your media strategy is >> an actionable thing >> like where what do you do? Where do you go?
>> Sorry I'm an actionable.
>> No. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean you're you're rightly fired up about this and frankly you know a lot of your arguments have sort of led me into how I feel about this space and how I am trying to position myself in this space.
I I mean I I think that uh the winning media strategy is for people that are subscribing to this liberal ideology to organize and to have organized media campaigns and organized uh political media campaigns. I think that they should be uh emulating successful uh successful media campaigns that we're seeing in other political ideologies. I mean I think >> those are coordinated but the coordination happens with the mainstream media platforms they're doing it they're doing it but the reason why they do it the reason why the mainstream media uh uh organizations why they collaborate with people on the right wing is because it works for them and the reason why that the liberal media campaigns uh don't coordinate is because right now that's what works for them. It's it's like uh but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's because they've decided that's they're going to be because everybody over there is mind [ __ ] And I'm going to assume most of them are not doing it in bad faith, but it's because they're mind [ __ ] into thinking there's some [ __ ] virtue in it. We raised I'm not trying to like Okay, like we raised like $260,000 in a single day in an online fundraiser for my little DG thing, which is like a not super far left, which I think is a kind of a cool thing. I think it's a pretty I think that's a pretty crazy thing in terms of like an actual absolute dollar value amount of money raised. I have had one mainstream media reporter reach out to me for a relevant story in the past six months. Can you guess what story that was?
>> I I bet it's something not related to the fundraising.
>> The lady who did the story on Hassan [ __ ] is is in my email reaching out to me to get comments from me to build that story. That's that's the difference right now in our media environment is the right will do anything they can to launder stories to support their party and their candidates and then the lib left is trying to find the final piece of the Biden sility crisis to talk even more about how good they are they'll hold their own accountable that you can't win in that environment. No amount of platinum messaging or anybody else is going to is going to move the needle much when all of your media [ __ ] hates you. And by you I mean like the lift media is like adversarial to the democratic establishment.
>> Yeah. I mean >> again I don't I 100% agree with all of this. The problem is I think that you aren't taking into account and and one of the problems that we the reason we have gotten here and the reason people think this is virtuous and the reason why Hutch thinks it's perhaps a virtue for candidates to throw Democrats under the bus in certain instances is all related to the same thing, right? That we aren't we aren't [ __ ] standing our guys. We aren't sitting there putting our flag on the hill and saying, "Yeah, I'm a [ __ ] Democrat. I'm [ __ ] proud of being a Democrat." And yeah, we are the best party on the [ __ ] uh in this [ __ ] country right now. And [ __ ] you if you criticize us, but the standing has to be from the media. I don't expect somebody from an ultra blue area to stand Platner. And I don't expect Platner to stand the party, but I expect the media wing to stand the party. That's what has to happen for it to work. It can't be the c the candidates. It's you're on a national the Democratic Party is a national brand. Races are run at the local level.
Even even senatorial races are ran at the local level. It's the state the state of Maine, the average voter there is not the same type of person as the average American citizen.
That's true. But again, I think that races are nationalized in a way that they weren't before. And these things have ripple effects. As I said, >> yeah, I I got to say I >> run against Platner in Alaska. They're going to run against Platner in Texas.
They're going to run against Platin.
>> We'll see.
>> I I mean, I I agree with uh with you, Destiny, with uh you know, your criticisms of the media. It's it's I I think it's the biggest problem that we're facing right now. I I would I I I'm very eager to see what the lib left is going to do, if they're going to involve, if they're not going to involve. I I personally am going to be trying to play as much of a role as I can in uh in that. Uh but as far as this conversations go, um you know, beyond that problem that does exist, I do think that we need to hold uh political leaders accountable for the things that they say in politics. Uh, I do think that when political leaders say things that are outlandish in politics, it can it they can be held accountable for it.
For example, that candidate out of Texas that said that she was going to send Zionist people into FEMA camps. Um, and that absolutely crucified her campaign.
I I do think it's possible for political candidates to say things that are important. And I also think that it's it actually really important that we hold them accountable for what they say and we hold them accountable for their messaging. I do believe that uh your your percentage thing is right is that like you know maybe what a political candidate says is 2% on the meter and then the way that the polit the political media clips it is the other 98%. I I I I could very much see that being the percentage breakdown. But as far as the conversations on our political leaders go, we need to be demanding more from the people that are leading us. We need to be demanding more from the people that we are putting in positions of power. And we we need to be calling out weak leadership when we have it. We need to be willing to sit here and say, "Hey, you in the elected office, you're [ __ ] up. You ruined this for all of us." And like, "You need to change your policies. These are unpopular policies." And you keep on shoving them down our throat for some [ __ ] reason. We have all of our conspiracies for why you're pushing these unpopular policies. We have all all of our conspiracies for why you're uh pushing this. But it it doesn't have to be the beall endall. We as Democrats can be a big party, a big tent party and we can adopt uh policies. I I think that people have the right to govern themselves and if people in one part of the country prefer some policies and people in the other side of the country prefer different policies, they should be able to govern themselves and that should be able to be under the Democratic party and not this uh weird fascist thing where everybody is a psychopant and saying, "Sir, yes, sir.
Trump, I'll suck your dick for $20."
Look, that's >> Yeah. Ma Maga in the far left, uh, MA and Hassan specifically >> operate almost one to one. You can't criticize Hassan. No one criticizes Heis Hassan in their camp. If if you criticize Hassan in their camp, you get pushed out. Like they are seco psych, however you [ __ ] say that word. You know what I mean?
>> Seco fans for >> for Hassan. Psychopans.
>> Like I can see them in my chat right now. I mentioned Hassan and they're there like lightning ready to defend their daddy, right? just gobbling his >> media people though. Media people media people. Mi disavowed, right? Manny disavowed. Other people had a distance.
Media people. You're talking about the a media issue.
>> I love you.
>> I understand. But it's a both issue. And I understand what is way more important than the other. And I agree with you, but that doesn't absolve the like even if it's 91% on one side and 9% on the other side. Let 9% still matters and it could still again elections are won in this country by like one two% in some >> it's not a matter of what m it's the difference between necessary and sufficient. It's not a matter of what matters. If you're really thirsty and I ask you what's more important the glass or the water I mean like you need the you have to have the glass to put the water in. It doesn't matter what the water does absent the glass being there.
I'm just going to lick the ground.
Right. It doesn't matter what the politicians say or do if there's no media apparatus there to accelerate it into the into the public consciousness like the Republicans have. And especially not if you're going to lose an election trying to do that. It's just not their job and they're not going to be successful at it anyway.
>> You will lose the election trying to do that. I think that's a lie. I think that's what's what's feeding these things is the idea that if you run as a proud Democrat, you will more likely lose your election. I don't believe that.
>> Well, in the cases where it's obvious where being a prodemocrat would win the election, what do you me and Hutch would say?
See, but that's the problem. None of us have a crystal ball that going to say 100% what's going to happen. We have to make inferences. And one of the inferences that I am making or that I see being made, I should say, by Hajj is that there are certain districts where Democrats just can't win.
>> Lots of people under the bus. And I >> we don't even know if Graham Platner's strategy is going to work for him.
>> But where was the Democratic opposition?
I mean, do do you think that James Salerico would be leading in the polls versus Paxton if he was in Texas saying the Democratic Party is the best party in the world and we're, you know, we're just great.
>> I mean, I I've said him in in particular, I think that he's uh the way that he is uh I think the way that he is handling it is exactly the best possible way you could handle it. And I think that the way he's handling it is number one a little bit different from how I happen to interpret your tweet. And I think more importantly, it's it's different from how we're seeing some other people handle it in in competitive districts and in non-competitive districts.
>> Look, you don't have to like agree with every single thing that the Democratic Party leadership does. That's not what we're asking here. And and frankly, that's a straw man. What we're saying is >> well, I mean that if that's what you're saying, then that necessarily means voicing your, you know, disagreements, whatever they may be.
>> Throwing people under the bus is the same as voicing a disagreement on a policy. That's why I tried to clarify at the beginning like, you know, maybe I'm being a little hyperbolic there, but like some tactical distance sometimes in some districts, in some races, on some issues. Yeah, maybe be more aggressive about it and and just straight up say you think Biden was bad on this or the party was bad on that.
>> It's also again messaging is important.
And if you want to, you can stress Democratic wins, what Democrats are doing well. That is popular.
>> You should you should do both. You should do both. You should do both. I'm not saying you should just >> Yeah. Go ahead. I think we've done a really good job at disagreeing for an hour and 43 minutes on something we all agree on. Actually, >> we don't Okay, the different I know this is the what what is that name? The distinction of small differences or the the prejudice of small I don't know the exact saying but you know when there's very little daylight but it's still very important the little bit that we disagree on. I think that's what's happening here.
>> Yeah.
>> Love to get to him.
>> Yes.
>> Let me read. I I just got one for $100.
So, yay. I guess I'll read that one first. $100 from Killer 64 US. Thank you for the $100 to say, "Glad we're getting our 1984esque multi-hour of hate on the Democrats again. We need more conversations like these. Really energizes a base. Dude in the top left is so embarrassed to be talking about the Democratic party, he doesn't dare show his whole face."
I uh I don't know if that's why he's covering his face, but fair enough. Uh $2 from Meta42 TMR. The handsome Baldi owes Mike $1450.
>> Uh $10 from Rad L. I'm fully behind criticizing Dems for their faults and separating your platform from those faults. However, you should always note one side is worse and never use lies to denigrate the party for approval. Do you disagree with that?
I think for this I think we should have come Wick this is your fault. I think you should have come with like five or 10 like sample messages and I I I think that of the four people here I feel like we would probably agree on like 80% of it.
>> I feel like the positions that we have right now have the illusion of being further apart >> than they actually are.
>> You [ __ ] up Wick is what he's saying.
>> Always. You know what? This is another one. I am the most democratic here because I'm the one catching the blame.
Okay. It's always throw Wick under the bus. Okay, just like you advocate for the Democrats, just throw all the Democrats under the bus and advocate.
>> It's all your fault. Wick >> is Biden's strongest soldier. I get it.
I I I will uh take that mantle. I will tank the blame for you. Uh $10 from Trava. Why are we comparing what Dems could have done who follow road signs and lights when Republicans and MAGA push full pedal down on the car till it crashes into a wall and ask Dems to fix the car afterwards?
>> Tyler K.
>> You want to win elections? That's really what this is about.
>> Yeah. Well, this is a strategy meeting, gang. Uh, $20 from Tyler Karen. Bishop, the damage came from when we were in office. End quote. So, do you think we shouldn't elect another Obama because he wore a tan suit? Don't you think the scandal goalpost will be moved like it has been for the past 20 years?
>> Uh, to answer your question directly, I don't think any American that isn't a political pundit gives a flying [ __ ] about the tan suit. And frankly, during the period of time, I don't think anybody gave a [ __ ] about the tan suit.
And frankly, if you want to talk about ridiculous scandals, we can talk about the CNN articles that were talking about Trump gets two scoops of ice cream while everybody else gets one. The media, don't get me wrong, I want to be crystal clear, the conservative media is significantly more hyped about that kind of uh scandalizing and [ __ ] and dragging Hillary in the [ __ ] emails and so on and so forth. I get it. I'm not drawing I they're not equivalent.
But but what I do want to say is yeah, I think that it's unpopular policies that have made Democrats unpopular. I think it's Democrat uh Democratic failures in certain areas such as the border that have led to their lack of popularity in those communities. And I think that the what you can do is you can say this policy is bad without the Democratic party being bad. Because if the Democratic Party is bad, then in this two-party system, that means the Republican party is good. And and the Democratic Party is too good on too many things to throw the entire party under the bus just because they've got a couple of policies that are deep that are unpopular. And frankly, I think that the thing that we demand is that the Democratic Party takes the policies that are successful and moves them forward and takes the policies that are unsuccessful and unpopular and cuts them out. And that's how you get a good system. That's my position.
>> Seems good to me. Mackie Hilden for $10.
I think rebuilding the brand responsibility is 30% good policy, 10% democratic rhetoric, and 60% left-wing media. What is a breakdown from each participant?
>> There's a missing component there, which is like the leadership like the like the president like when you have an incumbent party that has, you know, has the presidency. I think that's a big big part of it. So, I don't know how to answer that question really.
>> That's fair. Uh, Trib One for $10. This is for Tiny and Baldi. I think if we add a way to explain our W's better, it'd be more beneficial in the long run. I understand populism's easy to message on, but there's got to be a way. Do you all think it's possible?
Trump's campaign colluded with Russia.
Okay, that's just it's we know that to be a fact. the Charlottesville thing, Trump was saying Nazis were good people.
Uh, like these are these are just facts that are true that our media was scared away from because the Republicans counter signal on it so much. If any of these things were relevant to um the Democrats, then we would believe the exact opposite. I I just cannot stress enough how little political leadership even can do anything when the media is so strong on these things. Like, we can't even talk about stuff related to Russia anymore. Even the lib left media is traumatized by it. Like if you don't if you don't I just don't know how you could ever overcome that environment. I just don't see how that's possible. Like even when people not to take away from anybody saying anything here, okay, but even when people say, "Well, isn't Trump like kind of losing now?" Like how how many layers of hell have we had to sink through to get to a point to where maybe kind of sort of >> Yeah, he's he's losing a war and he's like kind of losing Uh, well, >> I'm a big [ __ ] I'm a big [ __ ] the voters guy. So, um, you know, like a lot of the problems that we face go beyond the media and and politicians. It's just sad fact is that a lot of Americans >> a lot of Americans, a majority of Americans heard Trump's pitch and preferred him. And so, you know, >> that's a whole other angle to this.
>> Oh, go ahead. Please finish.
>> No, that's it.
>> Okay. $5 from my listening library. A Mandani doing videos explaining his bills is awesome. I'm in a Republican area. People here feel that politicians are untouchable and do not communicate.
Thank you $5. I know I come off as a onenote record here. I don't give a [ __ ] Listen, I love I think Mani's done a great job. The biggest reason why Mandani is successful is because he is a blue mayor in New York City. So Republicans don't talk about him and the tankies won't attack him because they want to claim him as their own. So Mani is able to go out and he does a really good job at all of his advertising. I'm not gonna deny this, okay? But I'm sorry if you think that mom has done a phenomenal job being the mayor of New York City. He's transformed into six months. You're [ __ ] Okay? Nothing significantly has changed in New York City. Okay? He's only been mayor for 6 months. He doesn't even have the opportunity to make massive significant changes in New York City. The only reason why the biggest reason why he has the reputation is because the tankies don't touch him and because Republicans are never going to have a [ __ ] mayor in New York City. So he can do all the messaging that he wants on his own free of anybody trying to [ __ ] with him.
>> Yeah. But doesn't that doesn't that like a certain viewer would hear that and think well doesn't that just mean we should go towards tanky policies so that they don't touch us anymore and we solve this environment media environment that you talk about and I can't that cannot be the answer. I think that's a fail state.
>> How is that the answer? No, the answer is to build your own lib left media apparatus. That's like saying we've got all these people you know committing the crime of murder over and over again. How do we overcome it? Well, let's just legalize murder. Well, no. I mean that doesn't I mean unless you want to beat tankies. No, but I'm just saying that the all the criticism needs to go towards having like a mainstream media platform. I love alternative media, but mainstream media is really important where Democrats can go on and get their message out and have like a good time and like here I just I just I pray for a world where Democrat Democratic politicians can go on to left-wing platforms and be treated as well as [ __ ] Vance was treated on the [ __ ] view. Okay. Jesus [ __ ] Christ. That's all I ask for. Holy [ __ ] >> Insane.
They were tougher on him than 90% of the [ __ ] interviews for for any administration member throughout this term.
>> Barely. If that's a tough interview, then I can bench three plate. Okay, it's it was there were no follow-ups. He was allowed to lie with impunity on every single [ __ ] answer. Okay, Wilie Goldberg was either asleep or stroked out for like 20 minutes of it. And usually in my the limited viewings of the view, she's like the most vocal kind of like superlived person. Um go back and listen to Vance's answers. It was like a [ __ ] lie on almost everything.
He got to have a clean record. Almost nothing got really challenged or followed up on. Like, I don't know. I think it was a very easy.
>> It's a It's a low bar. It's a low bar.
>> Well, they they ain't going on uh people who can actually hold their feet to the fire. They just won't go on their shows.
True. They just refuse.
>> This is where I will agree with Wick that there is some things that the political leadership can do. So, for instance, I think maybe one of the reasons why Trump has had an easier time in the media is because he uh for instance, when he was coming back in office, he was tweeting out or on truth social saying things like he would put Mark Zuckerberg in jail for life because of unfair treatment on Facebook and then he sued every single [ __ ] media company that banned an account of his.
Maybe the next lib president needs to do that. Maybe Gavin Newsome needs to start making death threats or whatever to Well, I'm just saying, you know, as much as I want to say, as much as I want to say, okay, they get friendly interviews and I hate the media people. Well, I mean, also Trump is kind of like threatening them with [ __ ] prosecutions and tweeting out [ __ ] about putting them in jail forever. So, you know, I maybe that's the way to get a more friendly media environment. Maybe it helps a little bit.
>> Well, so I I try to ask this every every chance I get uh in in a Discord call with you, Destiny. So, it's it's been a very big uh part of this topic is uh us exploring a little bit uh on the problems with the current live left media. So, what's what's your prescription? What are we doing? How are we fixing this? Because I'm a small bean. I'm a small bean, but you know, I I' you know, I' I'd like to make a difference. I'd like to get involved.
What What do you think is the uh the >> He said he already said you got to deport uh Rupert Murdoch and Barry Weiss.
>> I think that I think there has to be you either need legislation that mandates some type of media equality or whatever between both sides. I think that's less likely though than the other thing which is you need to communicate your CNN's your MSNB MS now whatever the [ __ ] you need to understand like hey guys uh you need to like work with the Democratic party more and you need to figure that out and if they're not then you get like the president to say some [ __ ] where it's like hey you know I was looking at Anderson Cooper and my FC guy or FCC guy actually thinks that he's not funny and he's about to lose his program like Trump did with Steven Cobar or like Trump did for a couple days with Jimmy Kimmel. Oh, maybe we need to apply that kind of pressure until we have our own little media apparatus built up on the on the left.
>> To your to your point earlier though, um I think aggressive media training for like center left or you know left to center libs that are not quite um in the crystal ball Kolinsky sphere. like we need our preferred politicians going into those spaces, but not uh they need to understand what they're walking into and they need to have like a a legitimate strategy for how to navigate those conversations.
>> I mean, a little but the [ __ ] main character was the head of DHS was saying the most [ __ ] [ __ ] constantly and she was still surviving interviews because everybody was there to like [ __ ] hype her up. Okay. Like, you know, the guy who was the voice actor for um the guy in um in Home Movies on Adult Swim. Anybody know what I'm talking about? He released a jazz album. Anybody know who I'm talking about?
>> The freaking Whoa. Coach Mcgherk.
>> Yes.
>> The Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Voice actor for him. He doesn't know how to play piano. Okay. But he released a jazz album and he thought it'd be funny to hire a bunch of backing musicians.
Well, he does random [ __ ] [ __ ] on piano. But the the backing musicians are really good. The album is listenable.
I'm not joking. You should look it up after the stream. It's listenable, but it's because he's got a really great backing ensemble. He doesn't know how to play piano. It's [ __ ] but it's a funny concept and it is the current state of our media. Okay, Donald Trump will ramble out the most insane [ __ ] answers ever. And I'm not I I do agree.
I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be like, "Oh, none of this stuff matters." I'm just saying that like if I was Kla Harris and I heard people compare me to Trump and say that they voted for Trump because they didn't feel like I had the qualifications despite despite being a district attorney, despite being an attorney [ __ ] general, despite being a senator and despite being the vice president and all Donald Trump has done is [ __ ] a porn star and lied about it and inherited wealth from his daddy and bankrupt [ __ ] casinos and then make a living on reality TV, I would kill myself. That's all I'm saying. If people were to tell me like you got to do better on the media thing and and I know I know you're not just saying that. God the media part is so [ __ ] important though. That's all. Okay.
>> It is. It is. $20 from lockis. This debate sounds like Republican framing.
If someone asks a candidate to bash, turn it on the questioner. Where was this energy with with all the Republicans? I have my qualms with Democrats, but I'm focused on MAGA.
That's also a great strategy. Yeah.
Like, oh, you want to talk about uh Democrat Biden in the border? Why don't we talk about the uh what was it $600 million bribe that Trump got from Qatar with the plane that they sent him? Why don't we talk about the crypto scams of Trump like basically fleecing tons billions of dollars.
>> The FBI director whose eyes look like he's trapped in a permanent LSD trip who wrote three books calling Donald Trump the king. I mean Jesus [ __ ] >> You don't Yeah. You don't need to you don't need to buy into the Democrats bad at all. You can simply go on offense every single time. And to Hutch's point, yes, media training would help you do that. Just say, "Oh, you want to talk about that? Well, we can talk about that after we talk about Trump who's losing the war in Iran and getting people our service members killed for nothing. For nothing."
>> Did you guys Did you guys see the um the new story about Kash Patel from yesterday?
>> The new one. Oh, you're going to have Look, you got there a lot of be >> It is It is one of the wildest stories that has come out of this administration. He was he set up a million dollar taxpayer funded slush fund that he was giving to FBI agents that were basically acting as his own um like personal weapon against perceived enemies. And they were they were giving them money in in $8,000 per week because it was under some threshold where it didn't have to be reported or something like >> Yeah.
>> What's that?
>> $7,000 Israel payments or whatever the [ __ ] >> Yeah. Was that is that really the wildest one? I don't know. I kind of like the story about Cash Patel getting so wasted that one night that the FBI had to bring the battering ram to his door when they were knocking on it to see if he was up.
>> My favorite Cash Patel story was him uh trying to go jet skiing when he was at the Five Eyes conference in the United Kingdom.
>> Jesus.
>> And instead of being at the Intel meetings, he he was going jet skiing.
That that's my favorite Cash Patel story.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> The Trib One for $5 says, "I'm talking about politicians for my last dono.
There's got to be a way to construct messaging to where it's solidifying MWS and improving on them. I'd also take uh [ __ ] on MAGA. Um we should do both, but look again, do no harm is my advocacy here. You don't have to [ __ ] on dems ever at all. I don't think it helps. [ __ ] on manga if you want to [ __ ] on people. Anyway, >> uh $5 from my listening library. Wick.
Republicans default to Christian values.
They aren't lost, just hypocrites.
They'll bury the bad parts and go back to acting like good Christians.
Okay. Uh, trip one for $5. The constant dem bashing is just so toxic in my opinion and our policies have been amazing for the working class. We save people. It's so [ __ ] annoying. True.
$10 from protest. Wick and Bishop, you need power only that ma and only that matters. You guys are sojacking over platiner. We need seats. That's all that matters. Also, the Dem brand was already down pre-plater in these new candidates.
Want to respond to that, Bishop?
>> Yeah. Yeah. The reason we don't have seats is because we've uh we've pushed away the American public. I mean, pretending that there is no problem with the Democratic party and that if we can just if we can just coersse people into one more election, we're going to dominate and we're going to suddenly control Congress even though we're we've been struggling for all this time and we have these historically like unpopular positions. Uh I I I think that's completely unrealistic. Um I I I I believe that it's possible uh to for for a period of time be able to claw uh elections here and there. And >> wait, can I ask real quick? What did the Democrats do to push away the average American?
>> I think that they adopted a series of uh social uh a series of social policies and other policies.
>> One policy. Um, I think the overemphasis on things like uh uh defunding the police and uh things uh I think that way I think the way that the party handled the conversation of things like white privilege and the way that they've handled some of the conversations about how uh bigotry >> and violence if you were to turn off all Republican media and listen to Democrats talk, how often would the concept of like white privilege or anything come up.
>> I mean, I I think we haven't used the white privilege terminology in in quite a while, but that's that moved on to uh anti-racism and uh all the this stuff.
And I and I want to be clear because I'm going to get clipped. I I you know, I I obviously there's problems with systemic racism and modern day racism and things of that nature. And obviously bigotry exists against trans people and so on.
>> To be clear also, I I agree with you. If as soon as I hear somebody say the term, by the way, anti-racism, I know that this is the most [ __ ] [ __ ] person in the universe to talk to. But I'm just saying that like where where do like the only place you see this >> is on conservative media. It's because Jim Jordan has dragged some insane person. Yeah, I know. But I'm just saying that our definition of what the Democrats have done is just what whoever conservatives can dig up and then put in front of us. There are no like polic Biden didn't make like you know white servitude day or like black worship day or >> politics is politics and framing is everything and the way that you >> I understand what you're saying you can't fight you can't fight on a policy level against the right-wing media apparatus. You can't do that.
>> Well, you're right. But you also have to play politics. I mean we've had people that have lost political campaigns because they had a funny laugh. And pretending that that isn't a part of this and won't always be a part of this is silly because it always will be and there always will be conservative media.
>> That stuff peaked in 2020 though. And I feel like every time I see a prominent Democrat like Gavin Newsome for example in his podcast with Ben Shapiro, you know, damage. Yes.
>> You know, obviously he was like put deliberately putting distance between himself and like the peak kind of 2020 woke era stuff. I just I don't see that really in the Democratic party currently. Uh I >> I mean I think when the TNC is opening with land acknowledgements, we've still got a problem.
>> Wait, did we do that?
>> Canada. I don't know. Are they doing that in the TNC?
>> Yes. Yes. The Democrat National Convention. Yes.
>> Okay, here's the thing. I If this is happening, this is mega cringe. It is a billion times more cringe to fly a [ __ ] traitor Confederate [ __ ] flag in the South. And that is widely accepted and adopted. Every for every time there is a Confederate flag, we should do a land acknowledgement. For every time one of these [ __ ] losers talking about how great Robert E. Lee is, we should have a cheek guavar [ __ ] Not really, but like I'm just saying the difference in fixation is >> Yeah. Let me get through these. Uh, we got a couple callers that I want to get to, too. Uh, natural phenomenon for $10 says, "I can forgive much if proconstitution candidates win.
Proonstitution is the only brand right now. Pelosi tells candidates, "Run against her." She says, "Just win, baby." Even if calling for new leadership. Thank you for the $10. Uh, $10 from pondering politics. I'm just starting, so I don't know if this has come up. There's evidence that Kamla telling the view she wouldn't change anything from Biden was a major factor in her defeat. What should she have said?
I think she This was such a [ __ ] It's so hard to figure this out because this is just [ __ ] The reality is this is a historically difficult position to navigate. She didn't have enough time to run a campaign and she was the vice president of the current administration and she's running in a populist climate where people want to see massive change but you're obviously tied to the current administration that you're a part of. So I don't I don't know if Kamla could have ever messaged her way out of that.
>> I don't think she had enough time period. I don't think that's even talked about enough. It I mean this we've had a historical problem with candidates not having enough time to campaign. She was a classic example.
>> Got a lot issues. She she could have she she could have I mean like I wish that somebody mentioned the fact that Pelosi told people throw me under the bus if you have to. I wish Biden would have done that instead of telling her to basically protect his legacy. Was incredibly selfish of him. She could have distanced herself from him like very obviously on the border and maybe a little bit on Israel. Although that would have tricky. Um >> she could have she should have just called Trump the nword over and over again until he called her the nword and that would have dominated the immediate cycle. Would have been [ __ ] epic.
Unironically it would have been based.
Uh, okay. Uh, $5 from Blacklist OTAA to say, "To be fair to Chris Rob. He's moderated a surprising amount. He did an interview with Breaking Points where Crystal was visibly disappointed by it."
Didn't see the interview. Can't speak to it. Uh, $10 from Lydia Wilder. Core principles for Democrats. Protect and aid our global allies. Belief in the value of markets, and belief in a robust welfare state in the form of expansive healthcare coverage and food assistance.
>> I like it. Ordered liberty. Absolutely.
>> Fair enough. $2 from Bogsy. Did Bishop say lock in or Lockheed liberalism?
>> Um although I am a huge proponent of Lockheed liberalism, I said lock in liberalism, which uh to sum it up real quickly. Natural rights.
>> Fair enough. Ryan, >> just as a quick thing, just as a quick thing, the next election cycle, if the lift doesn't get their [ __ ] together, which I don't think they will, also quote me on this because this is a risky prediction and I hope I'm wrong. I actually don't think that Rubio is gonna have much trouble distancing himself from Trump because I just don't think the Republicans are gonna talk about it at all. They're gonna move on to the next thing and the lib left doesn't have enough resonance in their media cycle to fix it on a particular point and that'll just be it. Right. If we couldn't do >> the vice president.
>> Yeah. And if we couldn't do the Epstein [ __ ] files, if we couldn't do that, then there's no shot that we're going to be able to tie Rubio to Trump. It'll just >> I guess we'll find out.
>> Rubio's going to inherit all of the good things about MAGA and none of the bad things. I I'm I would >> No, you guys I think you're I hope you're wrong. Even Vance Even Vance is distancing HIMSELF FROM TRUMP RIGHT NOW.
HE'S just he's doing it. He did it with the leaks to the New York Times. He kind of did it on the view. It was like >> I just don't think it will work. I hope it won't work. I'm unless my confidence level is is not high on that, but I'm hoping it won't work. So >> I I think you're working from an outdated premise, Destiny, because I think the media was way too chummy with Trump in the first like year, but they're pretty brutal with him right now. Like he is getting savaged in the media.
>> The I'm sorry. This is I >> probably harder than Biden was. I I I the media right now feels like the I'm trying to like if you go into a village and you kill a 100 people every single day and then a month later you you know people are criticizing you and then you go into a village and kill 20 people then people are like okay like that's where we're at when you say like the media is being pretty savage to Trump right now. Like everything has gotten so normalized in this country. I like it is comical where we're at with Iran is is so beyond bad of anything that could have ever been like Israel can't accept this peace deal. I wouldn't even blame Israel for not accepting it. Like we have destroyed the balance of power irreparably in the Middle East in ways that might come down the line decades from now. So we say like the media is being harsh. It like kind of but it's one of those things where like if we win the next election like if it's not like a 50 state landslide I'm like what is happening? If you believe the US has won the Iran war, I want you on my show next week. Please get in touch with me. I'd love to have a >> go to CNN's >> Go to CNN's YouTube channel. Go to MSNBC's YouTube channel. Go to ABC News's YouTube channel. It's all like negative coverage of Trump. So, I mean, I just, you know, I I don't think he's getting friendly treatment right now.
>> It's It's not just negative coverage, though. It's how that coverage permeates and how it's handled, right? He he put a junior officer in charge of the Department of Defense and then he single-handedly lost a war. I mean, the fact that uh they aren't seriously the fact that there aren't serious talks of impeachment means that he he's getting an evil.
>> It's crazy. It's this is it's like the story of every fascist empire that comes into power and they're gone in one generation. We have a person who renames an alcoholic renames the department of defense to the department of war and then the US loses the first war in its whole history as bad as it has unbelievably [ __ ] ironic. It's like bad writing in a shitty [ __ ] Netflix series for how over the top stupid it is.
>> Technically they didn't legally change the name. That's true. It's just the title. Thank you.
>> See there it is. He's doing IT RIGHT NOW. HUDGING IT RIGHT NOW FOR TRUMP.
THERE he is. It's the guy who thinks we just need to win the midterms to do nothing. Why you giving him too much credit?
>> $5. Let me finish these. $5 from Lawson and Harrison. You guys are wrong. Hassan obi heads don't live with their parents.
Their parents live with them. It's different.
>> Cuz they're providing homes for like what Hassan does. True.
>> $10 from it's Vishy. What do Wick and Bishop think of the Blue Dog Caucus?
They are moderate Dems who have better rhetoric than leftists, but will also critique the party. They also have been voting worse than the squad. Uh, bishop, I I have an answer, but do you want to answer that, bishop?
Uh, oh, is he Did he He might be gone.
Okay. Um, yeah, I think that the Blue Dog Caucus, such as it is, yeah, it has an abysmal v voting record in a lot of ways. Um, I I I haven't looked at their rhetoric lately. I can't I can't speak to it. But again, my problem isn't I criticize some of the things that the Democratic Party does. That's not what I'm beating the drum about today. My issue is with again buying into Republican narratives on Democrats, promoting them in order to win and also simply just being anti-dem Democrat in general, even in competitive states. I think it does long-term harm to the party, long-term harm to the brand, and it makes it harder to win nationally overall. Um hopefully Bishop gets back soon. Um and he can answer, but he's not here now.
Uh, okay. Uh, $2 from It's Fishy. Uh, as a Hutchhating leftist, I think him and D1. Well, you're wrong, but thank you for the $2. Uh, $2 from Lydia Wire. Uh, the Mom Donnie Media.
Oh my my There he is.
>> I got to get going here pretty soon, Wick. Just so you know.
>> Okay. Well, I'll tell you what. We'll read the rest of them later. Let me bring in a couple callers. Okay.
>> All right.
Hello, we're live.
>> Hello. You're muted on your end if you're trying to >> Hi. What do you got for the panel?
>> Um, I want to disagree with the tiny streamer.
>> Go ahead.
>> So, I think your um idea about fixing the liberal media, I don't think that's going to work at all.
I think you can I agree with you like the approach to the right-wing media, but the leftwing media I don't I think people will smell or like sniff out if it's just if it's a pro like if CNN is suddenly going to go really prodemocrat, I don't think that work that works. I think it just it comes across as kind of condescending to voters.
>> No, I don't think so. I think that's a [ __ ] talking point that the conservatives put out and then they come and they beat us over the head with it and the conservatives like, "Dude, but don't you guys want to be like criticizing your own?" And then you're like, "Oh shit." Yeah, you're right.
That's just not true for any Listen, I think >> you're going to have bad You're going to have bad candidates. They're going to get ripped apart by the opposition if they can't if they can't handle a like you were watching that CNN interview.
Was it Dana Bash? Yeah. With uh >> I think that was a very neutral and fairly soft not soft, but it was a neutral interview that any Okay.
>> normal journalist would be would be and any normal politician should be able to handle. Sure. And if that first of all, you're [ __ ] but secondly, show me show me a Trump interview that was like that.
Uh, the one with ABC that he walked out of.
>> What do What was the question they asked that made him walk out of that interview? Do you remember? I don't actually remember. I'm not That's not like a bonus or that's like a test question.
>> I also I also don't remember.
>> She was firm with him. I'm I'm going to stick up for the caller here. She was firm with him. She asked him followup.
She didn't let him get away with stuff.
>> No, no, I agree. She was. And Trump left. He walked. Elon Musk, didn't he walk with from his Don Lemon interview?
>> He did. The re and that was on his own [ __ ] platform. The reality is is conservatives don't >> you want that? That's a win.
>> No. Yeah, but but historic Trump's already [ __ ] seven elections deep now into [ __ ] our country. Like it's too late at this point. Where were these interviews prior to this? They don't have them. They don't have these challenging interviews. Yes. Now, after tariffing the world, after unlimited [ __ ] corruption and bribery on orders of magnitude that are just previously unheard of in American politics, and after losing the worst war in all of US history, now he's getting kind of tough interview questions. Like, >> don't disrespect Jonathan Swan like that cuz he tore him up in 2020.
>> Was he the the meme guy?
>> The Australian guy.
>> Yeah. With with the pictures.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Like we still have people going in front of Congress who won't acknowledge who won the 2020 election. By the way, every single one of those [ __ ] >> that's liberal media not holding Republicans to account not necessarily giving Democrats a hard ride. I think these are two separate things. I think >> why is it that why are Republicans so dominant when they don't have any challenging interviews on their side?
>> Say it again. Sorry.
>> Why are Republicans so dominant? How were they they were able to sell the idea that the election was rigged in 2020 and nobody on their side challenged them for it?
>> That's that's the right-wing media. I agree I agree with you on the right-wing media just not I don't think I think the left wing media can be hard on Republicans the right-wing media is not hard on Republicans at all and then but I don't think the leftwing media being more soft on Democrats I don't think that benefits you at all >> it does because it lets them get a message out without it constantly being challenged everywhere so we can at least start >> what question what question would you have liked Dana Bash to ask Camel Harris that you didn't ask >> I don't think our questions were necessarily bad but like the follow-ups So, um, related to the fracking thing, right? There is like a there's a layup way that you can answer that question.
Like, um, I know in the past, Kamla, you seem to have been a bit more hostile towards fracking, but now it seems like your opinion has changed. Uh, what would you say to Americans that are a little bit worried that you might change your opinion on that again? Uh, you know, what was something was it the fact that we are making so much money off of fracking now that you think it's a good policy that the United States should continue? And the combo will go, "Yeah, I think it's so good now. I agree."
Blah, blah, blah. And then that would be how you advance that. You can that. So she answers the question for her.
>> Yeah. Welcome to every Trump interview ever.
>> That's every Fox News interview with every single Trump person ever. Yes.
>> Do you want >> I don't think you want that at that point. You don't really have a media like is is the media called like the fourth estate or something where like it's supposed to be like >> Oh [ __ ] At that point you don't you don't actually have a functional media whatsoever.
>> No, you're true. Actually I that's actually kind of true. I actually do think there's a lot of virtue in the lib left constantly holding ourselves to this like really high standard of like first amendment principles and good strong media criticism and I think we're just we're getting so much out of that.
I come by the way to that question.
Thank you.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Rick, sorry you can.
>> Yeah. No, you're fine. Dev, do you have anything for the panel?
>> Well, uh that traceless guy in the backstage, he he was there for an hour before any of us.
>> I know what he wants to ask. As soon as I joined in, he was like, "If you guys get in before me, I'm going to [ __ ] He's probably flipping out in there right now.
>> I know what he wants to ask. It's about Darius stuff, and I don't I don't give a shit."
>> Oh, is it? Oh, Jesus. Okay.
>> I don't give a [ __ ] So, >> so I've been listening. I I took some notes. Um, but the other guy left, so I'm going to not talk about the things I wanted to say to him. Um, firstly, >> Bishop, he's right here.
>> Yeah. Oh, wait. You came back.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. Yeah, I'm back. What's up, Dev?
>> Okay. Yeah. Real quick, you mentioned lock and liberalism. You know that Loach believed that atheists couldn't be good citizens, right?
>> Maybe that was right.
>> Sorry.
>> Lock uh Yeah. So, uh lock in uh lock in philosophy is not defined by every little thing that he had. If you want to get into the relevancy of lock in political philosophy and American thought, you're going to start with uh two treaties of government and uh that's going to be the foundation for everything. So, >> yeah.
>> Yeah, I know. I know that the the constitution came from basically the two treaties. I understand. Yeah. Um, so I I guess um somebody mentioned somebody mentioned uh uh platforms like libs of Tik Tok digging up the absolute worst of the left and then projecting them out there as if they are the entirety of the Democratic party. Right.
>> I have said that before. Yes.
>> Yes. And that's definitely true. Um it's also however I think it's not just what conservatives managed to dig up. It's also that other left-wing groups across the world do tend to be more left-wing than American left-wing groups. And then you have people saying that, oh, this is what the left is, right? Because like the left in the UK is kind of crazy. The left in Canada is kind of crazy. The left in America is a little bit less crazy. So, I do think you have a situation right now where um a lot of other countries issues are being transplanted into American politics and that goes both ways, but they're being transplanted into American politics basically just to serve us a right-wing agenda that doesn't really exist, if that makes sense.
>> Probably true. Yes.
>> Oh, okay. Um, I guess the last thing to think about is, um, I've been watching you guys have this discussion about about, um, you know, democratic optics for over a year now. There's been five or six different panels on it, a few of them on on your channel, Wick. Um, and I'm not sure it matters as much as you guys think it matters. The whole media thing is really important. But in in my view, Trump won 2016 because he was the only politician who was willing to critique the second Iraq war, right?
Biden won 2020 because co happened under Trump. Uh Trump won 2024 because co inflation happened under Biden and then there was the last minute switch with Camala Harris. I think the American voter really just remembers the last big thing that happened that they don't like and they vote accordingly. And some of that's going to be media, but a lot of it like I I think the Democrats are set up to win big. And there's a lot of work to do after they win big. But like I'm not sure even even a really a really solid Republican messaging apparatus plus a really shitty Democratic one, that's still not going to save the Republicans coming up.
>> So I think I think some of this is kind of out of our hands.
>> Sure. I agree to an extent that yes, the environment is somewhat be beyond our individual control or even the control of the party or even control of any messaging or any media apparatus. I would agree with that that that's true.
But I reject >> hold on I reject the idea that there is nothing we can do right. I just reject that idea. And what you're saying there kind of implies that that it doesn't really matter what we say, what we do, what we run on, the policies that we present. It's just gonna whatever event happens, we are subject to the whims of fate. And I just reject that as a as a concept. I don't think that's true.
>> I mean, I I I reject that, too. But I do think that Trump is so unpopular right now that you could have Democrats raping babies publicly and they'd still win elections.
>> So like I I think the Republicans are are so [ __ ] right now.
I I that that's a that's a that's obviously something you can say. Um I I I do agree and I think that that's one of the problems that we're seeing is a lot of people are going to this is why a lot of the DSA types and the lefty types are shooting their shot right now because this is the best chance that they're going to get. And when they do win, because if they don't have an R next to their name, they are more likely to win. They'll point to that and say, "See, our policies were popular the whole time." and it's going to cause a whole chain reaction of issues that we're all going to have to clean up with or clean up in the Democratic party after this. But yeah, I get your point.
I get what you're saying. Is there a question you have for for uh either because he has to go soon or destiny?
>> Um I guess yeah, I guess these aren't just questions. Just me kind of giving my thoughts on what I've what I've seen so far. I mean, the reason I think this is because I remember at some point for for a video that that I did a year or two ago, it would have been a year ago.
I went over just the the uh the data from the 20 24 election and Trump didn't actually really gain any voters. Like he had like he had more raw votes, but proportionally it was in in all the various demographics and locations, they were all roughly the same. The only thing that changed is that the American population grew. So, you didn't really get any more votes really. What happened is that a whole bunch of Democratic voters were demoralized and stayed home.
That's what happened. So really, I think and and and this time around, the Democrats are not going to be demoralized. They have a lot of reasons to get the [ __ ] out there and vote. So I think this is kind of in the bag. That's all.
Okay, cool. Wonderful. Hutch, you have to go soon. I want you to give an outro and let people know where they can find you, all these things if you need to head out. So >> yeah, thanks for having me on.
Appreciate it. Um, you guys can find me at youtube.comhutch, twitch.tv/hutch.
I stream usually Sunday through Friday starting at 7 a.m. Pacific, 10 a.m.
Eastern. And uh, yeah, thanks for having me on.
>> Of course. Always a pleasure, man. I don't know. Um, >> do you um do you have any other issues that you wanted to bring up while you're here, Dev, or you you're good?
Um, no. Why?
>> I just I'm just curious, man.
>> Well, wait. You want do you want me to say something ridiculous and and destroy my career further after after Sunday?
>> Okay, that's good. We're good.
>> Hello.
>> Okay. Uh, Traceless, you're here. And Mandel, what do you got for the panel while we're here?
>> Um, so I wanted to touch base on what Destiny brought up earlier about kind of like media bias and kind of sucking Trump's [ __ ] Fox News kind of does that a lot. Obviously, because they're a right-wing media outlet, but they also give them the easiest questions in the world. Like they'll ask him like, "How, for example, earlier, I think it was in January, they were like, "How was your weekend? You had a busy weekend. Tell us about it." Like [ __ ] like that. It's like they're not pressing him on anything. When he does [ __ ] that's [ __ ] for the country, they're just like, "Eh, it's not a big deal." And I also remember when Fox was also kind of like genuinely kind of slandering Destiny on that one uh thing back with the the whole Charlie Kirk [ __ ] when he was talking about that. They're like, "Destiny, Destiny got fired from his site or whatever. It was like Jesse Walders being a retard."
Um, it's just it's just frustrating. In regards to the uh democracy with the Democratic party, their identity, I think they need to continue to touch base on what they campaigned on for the 2024 election, but just maybe elaborate more on the points that directly affect the average American. So, like uh the cost of education, the cost of living, affordability, and stuff like that. And they can also now use uh Trump's economy and the uh Republicans how they've handled the country throughout since uh 2025 and 2026 and we'll say 2024 because they had the majority of the House and Senate correct after the election was done. Um so they can point we can point to the price of the cost of goods the cost of gasoline still that is in like the upper uh $4 range continuously which is [ __ ] So, I'm just saying stuff like that, we could use that against them and that's how we win is basically uh advertise with that.
>> Okay.
>> We got to we got to start doing those uh grocery grocery receipt posts. All right. We we got to bring those back.
I feel like those move numbers.
>> Yes. I just don't have any receipts from like 2023 or 2022. I just don't. Um Okay. Mandel Mandal, how do you say your name, sir? Do you have a question for the panel?
>> Yeah, just two things quickly.
one. Um, this previous caller reminded me of this thought, but I I I was wondering your thoughts on this because I was thinking about for 2028. For me personally, the number one thing that I really care about is I want someone to come up and say I am going to appoint a commission with like I don't know tons and tons of people are going to read every email, every White House correspondent, every single thing that this admin did all the way down to like the runners and the messengers and and find every little bit of corruption and see who was telling people. Like that's what I care the most about is the corruption. I was wondering if you think that's a viable strategy.
>> Yeah, I think that running on law and order, running on the rule of law, ordered liberty as uh bishop here would say, uh that that's a very fine strategy, right? There's nothing wrong with My second question was more for um I've been trying to get on a few different panels recently because I I'm a high school teacher in in New York in the Jewish community here and I myself am not a practicing Jew, but just I wanted to discuss at some point all the all the various um left-leaning and leftwing anti-semitic tropes that have been coming up and stuff like that. I just want to um dig deeper into that at a future time. I'm I'm actually a subscriber for for both of you guys. I just wanted to put out there maybe if you guys have time in the future >> uh DM me and uh if you have an interesting topic like that uh just DM me and uh we we'll see what we can set up. But thanks for coming man.
>> Thank you.
>> Okay, >> last but not least, Lawson Harrison.
Mr. Harrison, what do you have for us today, sir?
>> What up, fellas? I just wanted to add one thing to that last caller. Um, I do the corruption is something I care a lot about and when you hear people say like, "How do we do this without being political?" There's no chance of us being able to tackle the corruption thing without it being political.
There's just no way to do it because it's going to be so one-sided and that's all I got.
>> True. There is a um I wish I can remember there was a [ __ ] I think a lawyer emailed me and another lawyer had a great quote but it had to do with um the Pisco thing when Pisco was defending um Hassan over his TSA [ __ ] like a year ago. It was one of the most [ __ ] positions the Pisco has ever taken, but it um uh [ __ ] I wish I could remember this guy emailed exactly, but basically the idea was that as long as you stick like a bumper sticker on a car with a political slogan now every single traffic stop becomes a political thing. And the idea that you would um or or rather you could argue it that way, the idea that you could ever try to separate out the political bumper sticker from any traffic stop becomes impossible. But like if you're a serious human being, you would say, "Well, obviously just because he has the political bumper sticker doesn't mean that it was a political stop." But like if the if the news wants to say this or somebody wants to argue this, that's always going to be argument somebody could put out there.
All that to say that like um you know what Lawson said is is correct. This would be it would come off as a political process because there is a political party in power and everybody doing the messaging like message runners or emails or whatever the [ __ ] else are all going to be Republicans. So it's always going to come off as political.
But you can't let that stop you. That's a word that's wielded sometimes by people to scare people out of enforcing anything. It's like, "Oh, you're politically partisan. You're politically." They don't care about that at all. And also, yeah, it's it's politics. Of course, it's it's going to at least appear to be somewhat politically partisan. But, um, yeah, you it's it's ridiculous to to say that just because you slap a political action on something that the underlying crimes or whatever become undiscoverable.
>> I agree. Now, obviously, there's ways to do it that would um highlight the political nature of it and ways that will kind of subdue it. And so obviously I do think rhetoric matters in that. But you're correct. It doesn't matter what it is. Uh if Republicans don't like it, they're going to call it a political lawfare. All these things, right? Even if it's the most um legitimate thing in the world. So no, it can't stop us. But we do have to be cognizant of how we are viewed and take that into account because I do think that that matters.
$10 from skeptical ninja. It's been bugging me the whole time. Can you have sensor bar dude pronounce tarico and chasm?
>> Oh, I mean I'm probably mispronouncing it. I feel like uh it's uh talico and chasm.
>> Chasm.
>> Chasm. Also, wait. I'm sorry. Let me read these three sentences real fast. I found this email. It's November 25th.
>> Uh guy emailed me. He said, "One five years ago, Scottas heard a case regarding where to draw the line between political persecution and legitimate pers and prosecution and oral arguments.
Lisa Blat, a famously spicy Scottus lawyer, made a rhetorically catching argument and then he links to be a time stamp and the quote is, "I really would advise every criminal to put a political bumper sticker on their car." Uh, the argument was convincing enough for Justice Alto to reference it in his concurrence. And then he links the Supreme Court for this. Uh, and then quote, I think the quote, this might be from Alto. For example, a driver with an anti- police bumper sticker on his car could claim that any traffic stop was due to his protected speech. Any person who carries a sign while trespassing uh blocking traffic or disturbing the peace could similarly allege that an arrest for these offenses was motivated by the sign's message. Um all to say, yeah, don't let people use like, oh, this is political as a as a stopping mechanism for, you know, trying to figure out, you know, corruption in the Republican party, I think. Yeah.
>> Wearing my MAGA hat as I stab people to call my uh prosecution lawfare. That's great.
>> Basically, >> uh $10 from Drive Me to Fire. This is a two chat question and he did pay $10 more dollars so I'll ask him. Uh, one, do you think a big reason for the discrepancy in media loyalty between the left and right is that the right leading populace is just easier to capture, entertain and hold, leading to behemoth networks like Fox, the Daily Wire and Tucker, whereas the left-leaning populace has higher standard is more willing to incline to fracture their news sources.
No, unfortunately you used to be able to say that, but the fact that they could capture so much of like the kind of like tech world shows that obviously even smart people can fall for this style of messaging.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh Mamba Claude for $5. Wick tell Hutch at Destiny thinks one battle after another is a bad movie. I'll have to DM it to him. Sorry. Uh $2 from the Tribuan to say we need IRI to make course for libs online. Uh make a course for libs online. Sure, I'd watch that. Uh $10 from the Ramen Dawn. Question for Bishop. How do we force out the pro two uh second amendment argument among safe blue areas in a more effective way? Also shout out the 47.
>> Yo yo. Um yeah, I I think the largest argument uh for the second amendment uh anywhere is obviously the constitutionality of it. I think that we're very lucky right now that uh the second amendment move community has moved uh away from the NRA which is uh the they've really let's say at least slowed down on their ability to advocate for uh gun rights. And so I I I think that really it's it's going to have to happen in a courtroom. I'm try I'm following the uh ongoing legal challenges against the new uh firearms legislation in Virginia right now and it seems like uh even though uh Abigail Spamberger is quite a moderate uh politician um it seems like the quickest and most efficient way which is like 6 months to 3 years from now of seeing change it's going to happen in the courtroom. So uh thank goodness for the uh constitution as far as that goes.
>> Fair enough. $10 from the skeletal big.
The only way to fix the media apparatus is to make the internet a public utility and regulate cable news like the radio waves. Also, everyone chat needs to flood the zone with their free AI prompts. Well, first of all, no. Making the internet a public utility would be a I think I think the the term is common carrier. Um that would be horrific. Uh we don't need that. I I think that would be a bad thing for um the ability of media companies and social media companies to moderate their platforms in a way that they would yeah that that that would be okay with free association. But yeah, that's my thoughts. Any uh disagreement on there?
>> What what what do they what would they do that they can't already do that they aren't already doing? If if you become a common carrier or a public uh utility, then you are uh not allowed to discriminate based on certain factors that you otherwise would be as a private company. Um and >> so asking again, what are they doing right now that they or what would they be able to do that they're not already doing the Republicans in power?
>> Well, no, I don't think it's an issue of what the Republicans would or would not do. I think it's a freedom of association issue just uh as as a as a principle, right? Um you would have media company or not media companies, yeah, social media companies be unable to make decisions for their own platforms. And I I I'm just fundamentally opposed to that. It's not a Republican or a Democrat issue in this case. My opinion, >> my uh my belief on the issue is that uh the human brain is not going to be able to develop in a way to effectively handle the information operations that are happening over social media and the internet at large. And the damage is going to become so great that eventually there's going to be legislation passed that is going to significantly censor those parts of the internet, if not the internet as a whole. I think that we're already seeing that in the UK right now.
And you know, maybe it'll be uh a a like crazy amount of time in between Europe reaching that point and the United States, but it will happen eventually.
That's my take.
Okay. Uh five gift TV memberships. Thank you, True Striker. Uh $5 from Mamba Mamba Claude. Hutch is always fighting against Destiny Solutions. Has Hutch thought of he who saves his country breaks no law so we can deport Barry Wise?
>> True. Uh, >> okay. $5 from Dylan Blair. Would you >> Wait, declare the record. I don't think twist fighting against any of my solutions, though, to be fair. Okay, >> fair enough. Uh, $5 from Dylan Blair.
Would you support reducing the threshold for impeachment in the Senate to 30 senators? It's mutually assured destruction is deterrence.
30. 30 is perhaps too low of a bar in my opinion.
>> No.
>> Okay. $5 from True Striker. The Batman was just okay. Too dark and the actor who played commisser commissioner Gordon phoned it in. If you like that movie, you have bad movie takes.
Did we Did we mention the Batman? Is it?
Look, thanks for the $5, I guess. Uh $10 from Thunder of Transifa. The Clintons have done the most damage to the party brand at no fault of their own. You don't fight that by running candidates in red and purple districts who attach themselves more to the party. Lol.
What do you mean? the Clintons have done more party brand damage than anything else. I I I disagree with you.
>> I also disagree.
>> Yeah. I think that Hillary Clinton was treated like a pariah when she ran for president and history has done nothing but vindicate her.
>> Um >> yeah, if anything like the people running against her, Bernie Sanders, etc. have done more damage to the Democratic Party brand.
>> It's just true. It's just true. the Bernie Bros. He's still gonna He can still win, by the way.
>> Okay. $5 from Mr. Migs. Just $5. I love that. No, nothing I have to say. Uh $10 from Vishu. Never understood the hesitancy with Platner. Just own him and his mistakes. GOP had worse candidates.
So, one and they don't care. If he's attacked, bring up another bad GOP candidate or Trump. Well, again, my issue with Platner and people like Platner is I don't want my party to be the party of you can go to Main Street and shoot five people and not lose a single voter. I don't I don't think that's a healthy party dynamic and I I don't want that as I don't want to be a part of that party.
>> I just hate because I hate vets.
>> Fair. Uh sorry about that. Uh yeah, I uh I I don't want to give Platner the uh the 51st vote. I don't want to give him the most power out of the entire Senate.
I think that uh somebody who is dishonest about virtually everything and who doesn't have any values at all, right? He doesn't value his service.
He's completely ab abandoned what is supposed to be probably the most important thing to him. He clearly doesn't value the sanctity of his marriage. Um he the fact that this man is supposed to be the first 51st vote and resist corruption in the Senate I think is a bit of a stretch.
Okay. Uh $20 from Tam Dank. What mechanism norms or norms would you want in place to ensure unity but enable self-criticism in the party so that it doesn't run into an echochamber problem?
It always feels like it's not the right time to criticize.
You're big on the media stuff. What would uh what mechanisms would you want in place to criticize?
>> Saying you can't criticize what?
>> I don't know. Right. Well, I mean, you can criticize. It's just I just don't I just We also need a place where we can have like friendly things. Okay. If I get accused of um not imagine me being accused of anything. If I get accused of murdering a child, okay, and I look and I've got like eight platforms available to me and I know that all of these interviews are going to be tough. All right. And nobody in the public knows well what's Destiny's side of the story for murdering a child.
I'm going to have I'm going to be fighting for my life on every platform I go on. if I can do like three interviews first where every interview is like a layup. We're like, "Okay, so we know you've had a bit of drama lately, so let's talk." Okay, so you're in Miami, Florida, where the children are really [ __ ] annoying. Okay, and you know, I've seen the police report. This kid ran out in front of your car.
Apparently, it was late at night. You know, a lot of us can't even see while driving. Can you give your side of what happened, Destiny? If I have the opportunity to do that in three different interviews, then my narrative is set and everybody that's like on my team kind of knows like, okay, okay, okay, this is the story. Now, when I go and fight on other interviews on hostile platforms, I have that narrative set and I can kind of like reference back to it while I'm in more combative areas.
Democrats don't ever get the opportunity to start from a position of here's our story and then we're going to go out and and defend it. They have to try to like refine the story on adversarial platforms, which is impossible. I don't I just don't think you can do it.
>> That's fair.
>> And uh to your point, Destiny, I also happen to believe that on the Republican side, they get a lot more of a luxury on media. They don't get treated as poorly in my opinion on like live uh like interviews and stuff. They don't really get pressed as hard as they should be.
>> It's a double standard. Yeah, >> it is. Absolutely. Dev, did you have something to say?
>> No. Fair enough.
>> Sorry, what?
>> No, never mind. And I thought you uh unmuted to say something, but you did not.
>> You owned him.
>> Okay. $5 from Trava. Chorus would have been the Dem's media apparatus, but it got astroturfed by lefties over fake concerns over corporate Dems being evil.
It has to stop. Well, yeah. I think that like I guess as a uh the obstacle or one of the obstacles to us building an alternative media structure like the one that the Republicans have are these arsonists in the party or just we are we are basically fighting for control of the Democratic apparatus and uh we need to win that before we can do anything.
Um, >> and and by the way, the only way that we're going to be able to do that is by having uh people that are willing to endure the criticism from those arsonists. The problem is there's too many weak weak leaders that they don't even believe half of half of the things that the arsonists are pushing for, but they're too afraid to face the criticism. And so they capitulate to things that they don't even agree with.
And that's where we're at.
>> Trillion%. And it's not even that they're too weak to face the criticism.
It's that they won't defend the other people that are having to deal with it.
That's the that as long as that environment exists yet because everybody's [ __ ] petrified.
>> We need we need a streamer. I've talked to crowd about this, but we need a streamer NATO. Okay. We need a liberal NATO. Uh social media NATO basically.
Could you imagine having a streamer NATO where anytime somebody says anything bad about you, there's like a whole network of people that light up across Twitch and social media and Casey Tron and Frogan and Mike from PA and Emma Vigiland and Hassan [ __ ] and all of the soccer people and all of the Reddit subs and like Foy and and all these Right.
Yes. Like that's what happens, right?
anytime one of them get dinged, every single person lights up to come out and provide like the most uncritical support of these people imaginable. And yeah, >> we need we need that. We do.
>> The deep state is in the works, boys.
Just send me a deal.
>> We'll get it. We'll put it together. The uh the power behind the throne will rise again. Okay, we'll we'll we'll get it.
We'll get it done.
>> I I think the problem for with that is that liberals tend to be more self-reflective because they actually do want to improve and be better. So, it's it's a hard pill to swallow sometimes.
>> Do it somewhere else. then do it somewhere else. Parents can want to change the way that they parent, but that doesn't mean that mom and dad have to disagree in front of the child. And right now, the the media is the messaging for the political party. So, treat it as such. There's no virtue for like, you know, managers can disagree, but you always present a unified front to employees. You're not going to have your, you know, your manager and his boss disagreeing in front of employees.
It's just not professional. It's not good. No business has ran that way. No household is ran that way. And no country should be run that way, unfortunately, right now. How it goes.
>> Yeah, I agree. 10 gift TV memberships from AK Bossi. Thank you. Uh $5 from Benji Boy. Thanks for hosting another great discussion. Oh, you're welcome. Uh did I already say this? $5 from Hedonic Samuel. Good stuff, Wick. Tell T uh tell Steve to tell Dan's cat that I said.
Okay. Uh, Eligy, Democratic messaging and Democratic media at large should mention Alex Prey and Renee Good in every other sentence like it's Lincoln Riley.
>> That should definitely be a much larger part of discourse than it is.
>> Uh, well, there's just look, one of the one of the I guess strengths of the Trump regime in 2.0 is that there's a new thing to be mad about every week.
>> Yeah. And that's true.
>> Things get forgotten unfortunately. So we don't realize just how bad it is because we are always kind of just going on to the next thing, moving on to the next thing.
>> I mean, there needs to be [ __ ] posters with the with the service members that we lost in this god aful war >> on every [ __ ] corner. And it's unbelievable.
>> How many people How many times did we hear about the um Afghanistan pullout stuff? How many times did we hear about that? Crazy enough. Also, another thing negotiated by Donald Trump. Isn't that [ __ ] crazy how that works?
>> What a [ __ ] loser, dude. I There are so many [ __ ] things that I can't say on these stupid websites. Oh my god.
>> We We still We still hear from um >> So, >> we we still hear about that one woman who was killed during Jex. Like, she's a hero. And six years later, >> the whose family they paid out $5 million of blood money to. Unfucking believable.
>> Yeah. Money for the taxpayer money.
Yeah.
>> Isn't that [ __ ] though? you're allowed to just that that can just happen. Like you don't get a say in that as American. Like if I say like I don't want my money going to that going to some random person that didn't deserve it, you know?
>> I'm just saying >> 300 billion to Iran. Get ready. Have fun paying that off.
>> Yeah.
>> I I am curious how and this is the black pill in me. I'm curious if this is too far away from the midterms to be relevant >> probably.
>> Unfortunately, >> that's why my biggest fear has always been they find a way to resolve this and then gas prices and everything start to settle and come down and Americans are like Uh, actually okay. I kind of happy right now.
>> Uh, Dustin, you think they would suck Trump's dick after that happens, too? As soon as the gas prices go, but like look what Trump did. He got our gas prices back down. The Republicans campaign on it.
>> Look what happened.
>> Yeah. Look what happened after the third or fourth assassination attempt. They They used it to push the ballroom, right? Like, and they were on point. It was lock step and they just pushed that [ __ ] >> You want to know who I'll vote for? I will donate all my money and support them. Is the person who's running for president who after the next assassination attempt goes on media and is like, man, why do so many people hate this [ __ ] That's what I want to hear. Okay.
Okay. $20 from dirty deeds to say Democrats mean nothing. Liberalism is what we should strive for. If the shackles of the party must be thrown off, then so be it. Playing a political endgame will leave the other endame near unwinable. both are important. Thank you for the $20. Um well, that's the thing.
Uh Democrats and liberalism should go hand in hand. I think that we should tie these two together.
>> Yep. That is that is how you have a like lasting uh a lasting system is by uh core principles that are going to belong in a political philosophy.
>> Yep. Uh $10 from Zerk. Question for Destiny. Correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like you believe the Democrats need to tell a more coherent American story. Any idea on how to create that environment?
>> Uh, no. That's not at all what I'm saying right now. That is an issue down the line that um Democrats need to deal with, but right now we just need to not lose ourselves to whatever the [ __ ] is happening.
>> Fair enough. Okay. My username you called in. What do you got?
Um I was uh the overall topic of discussion um that uh yes you should if you have to bully some other Democrats to gain seats um regard um assuming that their uh principles or stances that they would bring forth are not liberal in nature and a more in a in a more neutral environment. Uh this is a far more extreme environment in general. Um but it it for political necessity I think that is actually uh very much required based off of um the America is very [ __ ] large. Um and there's a lot of different people living in America and you have to if you want to win votes you have to kind of tailor a lot of your things toward each individual cultures. We have um 37 million people in America across 50 different states. uh they're all vastly different with different needs, different worries, different responses.
Um I I um I I would um for the original question, I would suggest that. And then um for Destiny's comment, uh no, this is why the Democrats lost. Um the the quote unquote spirit of the nation kind of died under Democrats. Uh based off of >> What do you mean by the spirit of the nation died under Democrats? What? What do you mean >> too many trans people?
>> No, no, no, no. Uh, it's fine. Uh, the what it meant to be an American and and this is very an incredibly amorphous subject and it it completely is different for not completely different but is different for um every American what it means. But it seems that like um somewhere along the line and it's not only it's not only Democrat um that uh we we've lost this uh monoculture that uh is that this is what is American and we've kind of splitted from that a lot.
So um the Republicans more so I would say as a reaction not as um not as an instigator.
>> Okay.
Yeah. I I disagree. I'm I loosely understand what you are describing, but I have no idea how that's associated with the Democrats. And I also uh don't really feel like my understanding of what you're describing happened in under the Democrats necessarily.
>> No, it's a it's been a long I would have the same critique starts Republicans if they weren't massive quivering [ __ ] Um >> death of the death of the monoculture. I mean, that's that's kind of like the rise of the internet and so on and so forth, but I don't think that that's that's certainly not like 2020 to 2024.
>> Uh, no, this has been a long um the separation of the sorry, the uh both parties moving away from each other has been around for longer than 2020 to 2024. This is just I want to say this is predetermined, but this was >> okay. Looking back at it, this kind of seems like other Trump is a bit of a fluke, but the uh um polarization does seem to be like a natural progression so far. Trump is very weird.
>> Trump is weird. That is true. Okay. Uh other guy, uh new guy. What do you got uh quickly?
>> Uh yeah. So you whatever describing a Democrat, you keep talking about the adherence to liberal principles. But I kind of want to reiterate here uh kind of what Destiny said earlier that like an adherence to liberal principles should be the floor across the board.
Republicans, Green Party, Libertarians, uh Democrats, like that this should be what unites us as Americans. So when you ask like what it means to be a Democrat and what it means to have the Democratic brand, you just saying liberalism doesn't really say anything. Um, and then on top of that, uh, kind of what Hutch was getting at is that if adherence to liberal principles is really what we need to defend here, which it is, then sometimes shedding adherence to, um, a party whose brand isn't doing anything for the fight I'm trying to have, uh, might be beneficial.
>> So, my concern, I'll just re just real quick, I'll just reiterate my concern.
like it might be beneficial, but I think that the long-term harms of that is it's like if your doctor prescribes a medication, you can't a lot of these things are harmful if you keep taking them over a long period of time. That's why they only give you a certain amount and a certain time. My my issue is none of you guys know how to properly apply these these principles or these things.
I don't think it's necessary either. I think that you're prescribing Ivormectin for CO It's not going to actually work and it's going to uh at best do nothing and at worst case cause you a lot of problems.
>> Sure. Let me ask you this then.
>> Would you give up the Democratic party for the continuence of liberal democracy?
>> If that was on the table, yes. Would you give up um your uh position that we should ne that we need to de criticize the Dems if I can demonstrate 100% that that wouldn't work ever? Like yes, the obvious the answer is obviously yes, you would. like we don't have what I'm saying. So, what I'm saying is So, what I'm saying here now, right, kind of what what uh Hutch was getting at earlier and kind of uh what Destiny was getting at is that we're not really in a battle between Democrats and Republicans right now, we're in a battle between liberal people and illiberal people. And if maintaining a liberal if maintaining a liberal democracy means shedding the veneer of a party affiliation then I will do that because under what undergurs all of that liberalism I don't think that means that right now the people who are trying to shed the veneer and change what the democratic is are illiberal people it is people like yes but if we see but if we don't these are the people who are asking may may I finish these are the people who are asking you and pushing you and these are the primary driving factor of the people who are like you need to throw Chuck Schumer, the DNC, Biden, all these people under the bus. These are the main movers and shakers of this rhetoric. Why do you think that they are trying to do that? Why are they think that they are trying to convince you that it is necessary to do that in order to >> We're not talking about, sorry, I'm going to mispronounce his name again, Terico, uh, Terico. We're not talking about him taking an unpopular stance like uh transgender issues on minors or some some aspects of the border. We're not talking about him taking these unpopular uh policies and abandoning them. We're talking about people that are specifically pushing bad faith illiberal uh dishonest arguments. And so when when you're saying, "Oh, well, this is the the fight between D and R is liberal versus illiberal," it's like, "Yes, that's true." But on top of that, we're also facing a lot of illiberal elements in the D camp and we need >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I may. It's because we're allowing them to define the ground that they want to fight on and always acting react or reacting to what narratives that they put in play, right? Like Destiny says all the [ __ ] time, right? Democrats are always responding to Republican narratives.
Republicans drive the narrative on anything they want about what Democratic messaging is, what Democratic positions is, and we're always reacting after the fact. So what happened is I I don't I don't know how much you know about like RTS's or like any type of like tactical strategy. One of the most important things that you can do in any engagement is to um establish some fortified position on the ground on which you're going to fight. And by allowing them a first crack at what they believe liberalism to be, now we're fighting on their territory, under their framing, and on their terms. And we will always lose that fight when specifically the infrastructure that we have is behind them as well.
Yeah, the the linguistic ground is is very important and rejecting their linguistic uh territory, their linguistic framing is a very important part of establishing boundaries. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But you you you do you understand my my point though, right? like that the the point of being willing to shed this veneer of like party affiliation is us allowing ourselves the ability to fight on ground equivalent to them.
>> I disagree. I disagree. I think that what you're doing is you're buying into their narrative framework that you have swallowed the pill that they have sold you right that they have uh tricked you into buying that you need. Do you know how to break somebody out of a cult wick?
>> Huh?
>> Do you know how to break somebody out of a cult? like somebody who's deeply bought in like do you know what the first step is?
>> Separate them from the cult.
>> No, it's to establish some uh sense of understanding of their reality. You have to you have to make them uh you have to make them believe that you understand their reality and that you have to at some point in the beginning engage with them on that reality because trying to take a sledgehammer to that reality is going to is only going to make them double down. You have to begin by coaxing them into understanding that they're like to to sew some doubt in it before you have any hope of breaking it.
Right. So, >> sorry, this is [ __ ] This is like some level [ __ ] intelligence.
>> This is correct. This the same way you get people into the cult is the same way you get people out of a cult is building rapport.
>> Okay, we're not we're not talking about getting people out of a cult and we're also not talking about building rapport with voters. Hello.
>> What do you think a politician's job is to do? What do you think a politician's job is to do except build rapport with the vote with voters?
>> That's my point.
>> Build a connection.
>> Yes, that's my point. Nobody is saying that the politicians should not be building rapport with the voters.
>> But if building that rapport necessitates them to shiliation think we should be a little racist to build rapport with them.
>> Only if it's against everyone's a little bit [ __ ] racist.
It doesn't matter.
It's because what they believe No, it's because what they believe is like fundamentally opposed to what like the values of liberal democracy >> fundamentally opposed to what we do, right?
>> Say that one more time. I'm sorry.
>> So if someone believes in illiberalism or illiberal values that's fundamentally opposed to what we do, right?
>> I I would say so. Yeah.
>> So why are we adopting their framing?
Why are we adopting this illiberal framing that the Democrats are bad? That the Democrats are bad. I'm not saying that we should adopt it. Wait, wait. I'm not saying we should adopt it or >> feed into it.
>> I'm No, no. I'm saying we should understand it and we should engage with it as it exists, not as we wish it exists.
>> I understand, but you don't have to engage it by feeding into it. You can engage it by opposing it.
>> I'm not talking about important. I don't disagree that you shouldn't like obviously you need to understand even the worst people. You need to be able to have a theory of mind for how they operate and understand their worldview, how they see things in order to better communicate with them. I don't agree with that at all. I don't disagree with that at all. My my issue with your advocacy here is that you've seem to broad the framing that I think is just incorrect that we that people need to do this in order to reach voters. And I don't think that's true.
>> So those people in Texas, right, the ones that turned down all of that what was it? FEMA money um because like Biden was going to get to come and take their [ __ ] homes right before the warning system that it would have paid for um wiped all of them out in a [ __ ] flood, right? Like, do you think that it would be better for a Democrat to go in there and have the message that, yeah, Biden could have probably done a little bit better, right? It's not inherently a lie, right? But it's much easier to sell them than Biden was perfect on the [ __ ] border and nothing happened and everything was a lie. Like, which do you think would be the better way to go?
>> I don't think this is a false dichotomy.
I'm the false choice, I should say. I'm not asking people to say Biden's perfect or never criticize the Democrats or to criticize what they're doing. What I'm saying is buying into these narratives that they're pushing is hurting us nationally. And it's very important because hold on finish. If I may finish, the brand of the Democratic Party, as we all agree, it's the liberals versus illiberals. And it's very important that liberals win. And this is very important in this context for America as it is today now to strengthen that brand and not weaken it.
>> No, no, no, but you just said it. It's important that liberals win.
>> Yes.
>> Not necessarily that Democrats win. If we could form a liberal party that would make up 50% of the electorate that would come from traditional like establishment Republicans and establishment Dems, I would advocate for them because right now cuz right now liberalism is what we need to be fighting for.
>> But you understand in this environment if Democrats don't win and a liberal has won.
>> No. No. That's only because we live in a two-party system. But what I just laid out is where Okay. Well, oh, in order for your thing to work, we have to change the entire [ __ ] No. What I'm saying is No. What I'm saying is we advocate we advocate for Democrats because Democrats are the liberals in the room. If there were liberals in the room, there would be Democrats.
>> Mhm.
>> Your problem is that you are looking at one election. Wick and I are looking at all of them. You're looking at this as a binary. For example, the main election where if Graham Platner doesn't win, Susan Collins wins. And bottom line, end of story, start of story, one liberal loses, Graham Platner, because he's a D, and one illiberal wins, Susan Collins, because she's an R and going to support Trump. What Wick and I are saying is that we are convinced that the after effects, the ripple effects of this one election, and maybe not this election because it's a Senate and Senate seats are particularly important and could potentially raise to the level of importance. I would I could totally buy into that. I think some elections are worth more than others, but certainly not all competitive elections are worth the ripple effects of the damage to the party brand because there's more than just one election. There's all elections until we're dead and then a whole lot more.
>> Okay, here's a Okay, do we do we all agree? Do we agree? Do we all agree that the Democratic brand is [ __ ] >> I have dog [ __ ] >> Okay, that is it is perceived. Yes.
>> Okay. Would we care if it's a fresh warm pile of dog [ __ ] or a weak old white crusty pile of dog [ __ ] Would Would we really care about that that much?
>> You understand that the Democrat equivalency to me?
>> No, no, no. Because what you're saying is you're all agreeing that the Democratic Party is [ __ ] and what you're saying is is that the Democratic Party is only going to get worse.
>> No, I think that it's [ __ ] because they've had bad policies.
>> Yep.
>> That's why bad policies.
>> I I mean, we've listed many of them throughout here. I think that they've overemphasized certain things. I think they've underemphasized certain things.
I think they've underdelled on certain things. We could go into that at a different time, but I'm not gonna do that in passing for like >> No, that's fine.
>> Okay.
>> Just done it for three hours.
>> Okay, gang. We have run the gamut here.
We have circled the wagons. We have circled the drain as well. Um, thank you all for coming today. Tomorrow, well, first, if you like the show, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, and tomorrow we are going to have Dev and Tali versus Bri Lives and Get Money Dre on whether or not anti-white racism is an issue in left-wing spaces. Uh, tune in for that. It'll be at 6 p.m.
Eastern. I'm excited to host that. Uh, any final words from anyone before we end this [ __ ] show?
>> Yo, I just wanted to say that Destiny mogs Hassan every time. He's so much smarter than Hassan. [ __ ] Hassan. True.
Thank that a great point. Caller >> breach.
>> I'll talk to you guys later. Wait.
Bye-bye everyone. Bye. Bye.
>> Bye.
>> Bishop. I want to talk to you.
>> Okay. DM me.
>> Okay.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
>> I'll talk to you later. I'm going to leave. Bye.
>> Bye.
>> See you.
>> Wow. Good job, guys. Remember to hit that like and subscribe and don't forget the notification bell so that my videos show up right in your feed.
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