House of Assembly Finance Portfolio Committee, first reading of Bills and Regulations.

[00:00:00]for Amen.

[00:00:40]Finance Committee, Tuesday members because that's when we consult with our constituents and Fore special Okay.

[00:01:38]Fore legislation.

[00:02:06]for preamble.

[00:02:25]Customs and excise exercise excise amendment bill revenue services amendment bill amendment billate and questions.

[00:02:58]333.

[00:03:01]May I take this opportunity and invite the honorable minister for finance and preamble first on the customs and exercise amendment bill SEO.

[00:03:18]>> Thank you so much Mr. Chairman. I'll maybe stand uh just while I do the preamles. Um Mr. Chairman, in fact I'll start with a quick preamble to the preamles if you don't mind Mr. Chairman and that is that honorable sorry >> I'll start with a quick preamble to the preamles >> just to just to set just to set the tone um so so so uh members of parliament what we have here in committee we have uh we have as the chairperson put it exactly we have six bills and amendments to bills and then we have three regulations. So none of these are new bills. These are all amendments. The amendments in general are are really are tweaking our legislation to be able to be more efficient in tax. That's the general rule. The gen what you're trying to do here. These are also not big amendments. They are generally small amendments. And so hence you'll even find my preamles are really simple.

[00:04:08]Normally I'm normally I've got a five, six, 10 page preamble. These are mostly one or two page preamble. So because it is so concise, so now there are important changes Mr. chairman, but they are not uh they are not many. They are they there are they are there there are um they are not sorry they are not big within them. There are a lot of them across the different legislations but not too many in each legislation. So if I can just unpack it that way so one can expect this and like I say they are broadly to try to refine our tax legislation because as you know at the moment we are focusing not trying to increase tax in S1 in fact trying to decrease tax and make tax easier to pay but broadening to make sure everybody pays is the critical part of what we're trying to do here. So as you mentioned Mr. Chairman I'll start then with the customs and excise act amendment bill.

[00:04:58]Uh the ministry of finance submits the customs excise amendment bill 2025 bill for consideration by the honorable committee. The objective of this bill is to five different things. Promote clarity, consistency and certainty on the administration of the act. Secondly, regulate uh the disclosure of information by esatini revenue services.

[00:05:22]Thirdly, recognize existence of other agencies which have ties with eswatini revenue services. Fourthly, enable the minister to enter into agreements with other countries for the purpose of establishing places of entry or exit for Esadini in foreign countries and development of accreditation programs.

[00:05:43]Consistent with the above, the bill seeks to provide a legal framework for exchange of information between Esatini Revenue Services and stateowned entities for tax purposes. We're finding the linkages sometimes are not there. So trying to provide those linkages to make sure we can collaborate properly across entities. It also provides the implementation of a single window operation also known as a onestop border operation for competent authorities as well as the implementation of accreditation and authorized economic operator programs. These programs will strengthen trade facilitation with other cycle member countries. Further, the bill recognizes the recently established revenue appeals tribunal as a competent authority to adjudicate on tax appeals, thus promoting transparency in the administration of the act.

[00:06:35]This conforms international standards on customs operations. In line with the World Customs Organization on international agreements for custom operation, the bill sets out the legislative framework for advanced rulings. Advanced rulings are written decisions for customs authorities that specifies and clarifies uh origin the valuation of goods prior to importation or exportation. They are designed to expedite processing of goods for customs purposes thus um enliven thus enliven trade. Lastly, the bill recognizes and bestows upon agents to execute comprehensive customs processes on behalf of a principal trader. This is to shorten processing time spent at points of entry into SYD. So, Mr. Chairman, that is the first preamble on the Customs Excise Amendment Bill 2025.

[00:07:33]>> Uh, thank you, Minister. You don't have to sit down now. But all I wanted to remark on is that we don't have the the preamble that we are reading. We have a very short one that was sent to us. Just a paragraph and um we would want to have these preamles because they are very helpful when the debate ensues.

[00:07:55]>> Yeah. So whoever has it director if you have it in your I mean soft copy you can send it direct to the cl so that members can can be appraised say thank you very much. We don't have that.

[00:08:12]>> Thank you Mr. Chairman. I presume that what I emailed and what was emailed to me are the same ones.

[00:08:16]>> Yeah >> they are the same ones.

[00:08:19]>> Yeah.

[00:08:19]>> No it's it's I wish I could actually agree with you minister. I really wish so. But uh what I have in my own emails is just a paragraph and I think that that's the same thing that was sent to members. Sorry.

[00:08:36]>> You have >> Yeah. Oh, the I think there was something because they were the paragraph here ends with uh >> are you not looking at the regulations?

[00:08:46]You're looking you're looking at the preamble on the regulations.

[00:08:48]>> It's the preamble >> for the regulations. Yes. This is the act >> and then we don't have that. Let me see.

[00:08:56]>> It is it is in the pack there.

[00:08:59]>> That's the regulations.

[00:09:01]Uh premier for the >> for the customs >> that we didn't get.

[00:09:09]>> It is the third last one. Sorry. There were so many Can you just send it to all the documentation that you send?

[00:09:43]>> I think Shabbang made an error because he got he got that got on.

[00:09:49]>> Yeah. So on on my on my list that I emailed, it is in that list. Obviously things can get lost in translational way. Honorable, but but it is it is in the list that according to my email was was sent there. Um and like I said, unfortunately the sequence is not right.

[00:10:02]So the the first one on that on that list is the is the customs for regulations. So it is so the the sequence is cockai according to the list you've given us now to to do today in so there's not yet so you have to go to I think it's the eighth the eighth one on the list there to find the customs excise act amendment bill >> correct Yes.

[00:10:41]>> I appreciative of that. In the meantime, I would suggest that you require the second.

[00:10:51]>> Okay. Okay. Let me do that. So, so this one. So, so honorables. Yeah. So, just watch out because you've got the it gets confusing. You got the customs excise regulations and you got the custom excise amendment bill. So just uh I think the first one on the emails is the regulations but it's it's the almost the last one today in discussions. The the first one he spoke about is the amendment bill preamles.

[00:11:13]Okay. So so the next one according to according to the list that we're going to work on today of the first three is the SWAT revenue service amendment bill number eight of 2026.

[00:11:24]This is a one-pager. Uh the ministry of finance submits the Eswatini revenue service amendment bill number 8 of 2026 for consideration by parliament and the finance committee in this case. The Eswatini revenue service was established through the enactment of the Eswatini revenue services act of 2008.

[00:11:40]The responsibility of this institution is to assess and collect all revenue on behalf of government. The act stipulates that there shall be established a fund into which money would be deposited through various means including appropriation by parliament for the for the purpose of ERS.

[00:11:59]However, as government is constantly faced with the deficits within a budget, it transpires that ERS uh would also be subject to budget allocation cuts. Yet, it is the institution that finances the national budget. The insufficient allocations to ERS have crippled institutions operations which result in ERS underperforming in terms of meeting their collections target. This is necessitated considering another option of funding ERS so as to sustain operations for maximum revenue collection attainment.

[00:12:30]In line of this, the bill seeks to ensure that ERS gets sufficient annual budget allocation so as to sustain operations. I think in short, Mr. Chairman, I think this bill is uh trying to say that once we have established the budget VRS on a monthly basis, they can take their budget from the tax proceeds before transmitting the money to the tax rather than transmitting it all and waiting for their their subvention and then sometimes subvention comes late and it means the amount of tax you collect is is less. So that's what we are that's what we are trying to do here just to try and make sure operations remain slick and operations remain on track with uh within ERS.

[00:13:07]>> I think there was was sent electronically. I think there was an error because uh the the it only shows the first page in all the bits.

[00:13:20]It only shows the first page.

[00:13:22]>> That's it. Sorry.

[00:13:24]>> Yeah.

[00:13:25]on this one.

[00:13:27]>> On this one >> but the other one page customs.

[00:13:43]>> Yeah.

[00:13:46]Okay.

[00:13:48]Um minister I hope director is trying to sort us out but go ahead to the third one minister so let's don't debate shame thank you thank you chair so so again you know what I sent on the email was a lot of our was the preamles and the presentations obviously the actual bills as we were tableabling them in the house the the the the the speaker's office was emailing them but unfortunately because we tabled them probably over four different sessions I presume it's getting so so so you're spot on. Let us let us get one email with everything the preamles the presentations that will still be coming obviously as we now being workshopped as well as the bills keeping in mind honorable some of these bills are so simple they are mumb only a page so so so keep that in mind too it's not that like I've said before they are not long lengthy things uh some of them are only a one-page document they are that simple like the stabilization fund one it's it's a few lines it's that it's that straightforward right the third one is the value added Tax Act amendment bill of 2026. Again, onepage preamble here. The Minister of Finance submits the Value Added Tax Amendment Bill 2026, VAT bill for consideration by Parliament. The object of the bill is to amend the VAT act 2011 so as to provide four five different things here. Regulations and compliance obligations for non-resident suppliers of electronic services.

[00:15:15]Establishment of an electronic invoicing system that enhances transparency, traceability and collection of VAT.

[00:15:22]Ensure alignment of VAT treatment of electronic services with international best practices and realities in the digital economy. Fourthly, the imposition of administration penalties and offenses for non-compliance.

[00:15:36]And the fifth one is facilitating investment in long-term projects. In line of this, the bill seeks to ensure that the uh currently untacked digital economy is subject to VAT and ensure that non-resident suppliers of electronic services are charged VAT. An example here on what chair is like if you download an app and you pay for the app, there's nothing eswatini gets for that and it's wrong because it's a service being provided in Esatini. So this bill is trying to deal with those kind of things. Whilst this is beneficial for the country, it is designed to comply comply with best practices globally. This bill will also facilitate investments in capital intensive industries and support long-term projects. The net effect is the generation of additional VAT revenue as well as to bolster efforts geared towards enhancing economic development in Eswing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[00:16:27]Those are the three first preamles.

[00:16:31]Thank you very much, honorable minister.

[00:16:55]entirely up to the honorable member.

[00:17:05]Uh, thank you very much, Chair.

[00:17:19]dete like it's in the same problem. The rest fund.

[00:18:26]Okay.

[00:18:30]Maybe still on on that.

[00:18:44]before made against secondly Maybe if if foods. So that maybe Customs and exercise amendment.

[00:20:18]and then V8 um what's the real target? Are we targeting the black market?

[00:20:28]Um the two is it like an maybe an invoicing There's quite a lot of money from that model especially from And um check city up front.

[00:21:52]for sure.

[00:22:31]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:44]laughter is medicine sometimes.

[00:22:57]Mr. General Mr. Jefferson income tax.

[00:23:35]right now.

[00:23:44]But The balance is good.

[00:24:33]Good try. Good try.

[00:24:42]Mr. Close by I think amendment.

[00:25:07]Amendment section to all income tax derived derived from disposal of a membership interest in a company.

[00:25:32]What exactly are you telling us?

[00:25:49]Because within inside.

[00:26:15]Welcome.

[00:26:21]I think any percentage of collected revenue.

[00:26:46]I do trust the current minister but in future could there be no abuse of this any percentage where we will find minister% any percentage of the collected revenue we prescribe the percentage as parliament thank you honorable chairperson honorable chair 200.

[00:27:43]Okay.

[00:27:46]David Cruz andala followed by collection.

[00:28:21]We remain either it's the same Honorable exercise decisions which were taken by a cycle.

[00:29:00]cancel.

[00:29:01]So, No, sorry. Sorry.

[00:29:49]complicated because challenges affected.

[00:30:10]Let us all be affected.

[00:30:19]Why them exceptional? Because they have a mandate to make sure cash flow in the country.

[00:30:37]So if we are saying they they must relax because they know whatever that they going to collect they will get.

[00:30:48]So it's up to this one. Thank you chair.

[00:31:16]two minister whatever percentage that has been decided the problem the current situation uh three in as much as continues not to be happy.

[00:31:56]Now, you know, all I'm trying to assertain from the minister is In this particular case, who is who is client?

[00:32:39]That would be my concern. Honorable minister, you may respond.

[00:32:44]>> Thank you very much, honorable chair.

[00:32:46]Um, let me respond as best I can.

[00:32:48]Understanding obviously, honorable members, it will go for workshops. We can go into there will go in really deep explain do the do the preamles and really go into depth on every point. Um so some of them I might touch on light but I will try and still respond to everyone. Honorable Alea was asking about ERS deducting before remit and this I think there's a few questions along this line little bit of discomfort I suppose around ERS collecting. I think honorable chair the Bible says something like you mustn't muzzle the ox while it's threshing while it's threshing threshing the wheat and it's and it's a bit of a similar scenario here if we muzzle the ox you find there's no wheat for anybody because the ox is not eating while it's trying to trying to create food for you so so so it's it's a it's a on that principle honorable chair it's um if if we if our cash flow challenges means that ERS can't deliver the mandate It now means that because keeping in mind tax tax authorities around the world aim at like a what they call a 4% rule which means that the cost of collection mustn't be more than 4%. And so and so these things in bump bump are percentage links. You give them less you get less tax. You give them up to 4% they say above 4% it's not having the same impact but if you give them less you you get less tax. So along the same principles, if we do have months when cash is tight and the ERS doesn't get money, it means that our collections are going down. And so for that reason, we feel as government, it would be a good idea to make sure every month uh that ERS makes sure that they they get what they need so that your ox that's grinding the wheat remains healthy and can continue to grinding while maybe there's not enough wheat for everybody, but at least the ox doesn't doesn't also start going slower because of the fact that it's also not eating. So, so, so it's it's it's that principle. Again, it would be lovely. Uh, I think the honorable deputy chair was mentioning what if we just pay YS up front.

[00:34:42]Unfortunately, keeping in mind it's about 700 and something million pay them. If we pay them up front the first month, then then we're going to create even a worse cash flow problem for ourselves. So, I think the need is to say every month, what must the amount be? And again we can discuss honorable chair we have felt let's link it to percentage so that we can because because again the thinking comes in if we're now paying them every month norm the pressure somehow somehow comes off but I think the two things keep the pressure on if we keep it a percentage clearly the pressure is there to collect what they can for the government because they are getting a percentage of it if they collect less they get less if they collect more they get more it's aligned with interests number two the bonus system will still remain So which mean there will still be to say listen government will set this target and just for information sake government has stretched last year too far this year we've stretched them even worse as I sit here especially with what's happening in Iran the target is unattainable if I can put it so unfortunately I can even say publicly reaching their target this year we we've stretched so which means normally government says what can you collect we stretch it to say okay well if you can get this there's a bonus and so they've I think in the last five years or six years, they've hit a bonus once and uh because we stretch and we probably at the moment stretching too far just just just for clarity. So we will we will continue to putting putting an amount there and if they reach the amount they get a bonus. So those two things will mean that hopefully they do still strive as best they can which sometimes people feel causes pain but strive as much as they can to collect because unless they collect properly roads I'm saying us all delivering on our mandate sen we fail uh if we don't get that right um I hear I hear the one so honorable uh Dr. Dr. Mongorsio was saying you know what about uh if there's something more urgent uh honorable chair so so if there is something something more urgent uh uh government has the balance of the tax collection so it means it has the if it is a 4% let's just say government has the 96% to take care of the most urgent things but let's at least make sure that the 4% remains there and and deals with like I say just keeps keeps the the system going to make sure tax sustainably comes not um how will we see about the digital services tax? We must keep in mind that even though even though it's very difficult to say if I if I download an app today uh and I pay I pay for the app or I'm buying something on the internet whatever the case it's very difficult to see for the tax man and but you must keep in mind all of that goes through our banking system. So our banking system sees it and so what we are trying to do here is trying to link the information from banks, information from uh financial services unit so we can so we can see to see what has been done.

[00:37:29]The idea is not to text the theati doing it. The idea is to say that when you've downloaded an app that we can say to Google or Apple or all these international companies say according to our legislation you have to pay tax in Eswatini and according to our records you have received X. you owe us so much tax. These big entities, they don't want to be they their their interest is not to try and cheat from tax. They they they they are quite willing to pay tax what is due to the different countries because they want to operate here. They don't want us to block them in esotin.

[00:38:00]They want to be available. So they they the countries that are doing this, they are receiving tax from these entities.

[00:38:05]But unless your legislation is there and you have the proof, you're not you're not going to get your tax. So it's not it shouldn't affect Emaswati at all.

[00:38:12]Emasati won't even know the difference I think. But the difference is with our legislation right and then with our records we should be able to access quite a bit more tax because more and more honorable chair we are now buying using using devices. Our our world is becoming quite electronic. Um honorable from Kabutoa was asking are the amendments.

[00:38:32]I see a member.

[00:38:55]Thank you. Thank you. Um, honorable chair. So, um, honorable court is asking, "Are the amendments aligned with the neighbors?" Most definitely. In fact, some some of these on some of these amendments, we playing a bit of catch-up. We we're trying to catch up with what the what the neighbors are doing and, uh, as well as just with best tax principles, we are trying to get this done on on the VA on the VAT front.

[00:39:15]Are we targeting black market? In fact, we are not. Uh, the target here is really the blue chip companies. Most of the companies that provide digital services they are out there you know exactly are they massive companies so it's not necessarily where we are closing black market ones is one is is and we're getting to the uh the vet the the rules you're putting on VAT to bring in these systems which is not necessar I wouldn't call it a black market it's just let's call it our retail sector our friends that are out there that are sometimes not paying over the VAT and we need to and and that system is going to be able to close those loopholes there to make it extremely difficult if you don't pay VAT in eswadini. We've launched this and we now just need the the the legislation in place to make sure we can actually implement it fully and have the teeth to do something about it if we find gaps. Um and again I think just touching then on a second question will this close the VAT gaps locally? It definitely will. So we feel that what we are what we're bringing you here if you approve these things will close the VAT gaps we are having in our system because the problem as I've touched on before with our retail sector not paying VAT is two things. Number one, we're not getting the money. Number two, because they are cheating the VAT system, they are putting the good taxpayers out of business. So, it's got a it's got a double hit on the government when you have entities not paying over the VAT.

[00:40:30]So, we have to we have to become brilliant at knowing exactly how much VAT is due and collecting the VAT. So, companies that are legitimate companies that are paying VAT are not adversely affected or out competing the marketplace. Um, I think I've responded to honorable Mafenny's question around upfront payment. uh honorable came in to say that things are standing on the contractor front um but you know here we are talking about tax as if everything is normal uh he is correct Mr. Chairman, at the moment things are cash flow is very tight. When we passed our supplementary budget, honorables, we we didn't have we had we had the money for the strategic oil reserve, but we didn't have the cash for the other things. We went to the market straight away to start raising this cash. This morning I was in meetings raising the money. We are constantly doing our best. The money will start being raised. My feeling is in about a month's time and only by probably November will have raised the final amount of of budget support that we need. So unfortunately honorables, I wish I could sit here and tell you no, around the corner things are fine. It's not. It's going to be tight for a while.

[00:41:32]It's probably going to be tight until October, November. And so we'll do what we can on a weekly basis. Tax comes in, we'll try and pay bits and bobs. If we can raise something, it'll give relief.

[00:41:42]Uh but the truth is, honorables, I'm going to come to you with uh budget support. This year is unfortunately it's a large budget support I'm coming with.

[00:41:50]I'd plead for your support. It's that budget support is going to pay for these contractors. Now again we say oh minister budget supports recurrent. It's not recurrent honorable. It's for exactly like you're saying it's for road contracts. It's for finishing the ICC.

[00:42:01]It's for the strategic oil reserve. It's for these things that have got long-term credibility to our economy. And so it's called budget support, but it's not necessarily to keep the lights on for salaries. That money we do have. It's to be able to implement projects that we've all decided to implement. And so just to just to just to ask for your indulgence when that comes, Mr. Chairman, we are coming with some serious budget support requests this year. Um, when it comes to then on he also asked about tax on on on capital gains tax. So maybe just to be clear on that one. Number one, capital gains tax.

[00:42:34]Number one, we only charging for businesses. So as a individual, if you buy a car, sell a car, that doesn't affect you. Or if you buy a house, sell a house, it doesn't affect you. It's when a business buys a vehicle, maybe the same car, is when when you sell your assets, you're going to pay tax on the capital gains. Now, keeping in mind something like a vehicle normally does not have capital gains because what you're selling for is less than what you bought it for, unless by chance you're selling it for more. So, if you're selling it for more, you're going to have to pay something in. But, it's often going to apply to something like a building because you'll buy a you'll buy a if you're a business, you buy a shed uh and you convert it into a business and you do business there over the years. You might have bought the shed for 20,000. By the time you finish 20 years time, you now whatever need bigger premises, you sell it to move. You're selling it for 2 million. You'll pay you'll pay the difference between what you paid for that shed and what you're selling the shed for. Cuz keeping in mind the upgrades on the shed you you were writing off against tax n out of 10. So which means and which means government was investing with you in that shed. When you sell the shed now you share with government is the rules.

[00:43:36]And so and so just to understand the capital gains tax. So it's it's not relating to VAT. VAT doesn't come in here like you're talking on the vehicle.

[00:43:43]It is purely for fixed assets that will be sold by businesses. Um we then had honorable welcome was saying any percent by the minister in parliament is rather prescribed. So I hear you. I think it's a good argument from honorable welcome.

[00:43:55]We'll I think we'll see Mr. Chairman when we discuss this. Let's find the best way. I don't think ERS is adamant on it. We can find the best way to protect uh you know me from doing something silly one day or parliament.

[00:44:06]You know we can for sure put the rules in place that we feel we need. Uh honorable from Guteni was also asking about the 200 Milan Guini as you said Mr. Chair that will come in. Honorable Cruiser Nala was saying ERS um uh targets will get a percent. I think I did unpack that is to say that they will they'll get a percent now of the revenue collected I think is the neatest way. Um we can do it that way or obviously we can say there's the annual budget and every month and and it remains that way. another way to skin the cat.

[00:44:35]doing a percentage somehow incentivizes them to collect because like this year now the incentive for them to try and get the target I think is going to be tough because the target is with a with a crisis in Iran the target is bomba it's it's it's it's high and so who knows maybe by God's grace they get it but you might find now they're saying oh we can't get the target oh you know let us just relax now whereas now if we are saying a percentage that relax doesn't come in because they know just to be able to pay salaries we need to chase and we need to make sure that we get money to be able to pay salary. So it still brings that incentive element in if it remains a percent. I think percentage base is the smartest way to go. Honorable from Cleni was asking about decisions taken by cycle council as was said by the chair. I think it'll come in the regulations. Uh ERS um cash flow should affect all I think I've touched on that. I think the best is to actually make sure we don't actually hurt them if the cash flow is tight. um and and and I think his fear that they might relax and that's why I think keeping a percentage and keeping the bonus will make sure that we don't get that element of relaxing. Honorable chair, you came in with some final questions was to say that um uh bonuses uh will they will they also uh will they also take so um uh and where where the current bottlenecks and so I think we will definitely continue with the ERS bonuses and uh in my opinion will be honorable chair and that is that the bonuses uh can be taken but to be honest I'm not sure we'll check when we unpack it whether the bonuses can be taken I presume the bonuses will still be paid from government if if the target is reached or are they going to sorry are they going to take from the from the squammer >> it's part of it's part of the budget amount yes so it means if they reach it they will then have to get the bonuses in that in that case but again like I say we'll just be very clear when we unpack it and then uh where are the current bottlenecks uh we got lots of bottlenecks honorable chair at the moment the bottlenecks um is sometime the bottleneck in this case we're trying to trying to preempt is government sometimes running out of cash and you somehow something is more important that month than and you delay. We we often don't pay them uh or we don't not pay them. Just sometimes we pay them late.

[00:46:44]So you find that instead of them getting the money on the 19th so they're going to pay salaries on the 22nd you find they're only getting the money their money by the 25th or the 28th. And anybody anybody in jail if you if you are used to getting yourself even you get it before month end if you are used to getting it 22 you are by the 20 by 22 you know I mean you are waiting for that money and even if you say no well it's not month end yet we're giving you 28th people don't understand that it creates a lot of discomfort in organization when you pay even one or two days late it it creates that stress which is unnecessary the person is no longer thinking of his work he's now thinking about am I getting paid this month and and he's you're creating a lot of stress in the system if you do that So hence we believe that this will be the neater way to to de-stress the system. Um but yes if we talk of bottlenecks in the in the tax system we are really trying to we dealing with many bottlenecks in this holistic pack of legislation we're bringing to you honorable chair uh because uh we have found uh that there are many areas that need that need fixing for us to be able to collect better. Uh people are people are not happy wants payment from government and government doesn't pay.

[00:47:49]It's a very good question honorable chair on this one. What we need to understand and somehow make sure the message gets out to the population. If you are owing tax on invoices that government hasn't paid you for, you absolutely can go to ERS, explain to ERS to say number one, I can't pay you now because government is owing me. Prove that government is owing you and they will give you relief from paying straight away. Number two, you don't get penalties and interest if it is due from a government delay. That is an agreement we have at ERS. ERS applied that agreement. Our contractors, our people that work, our people that are paid possibly paid by government, they need to understand this and they must be able to have that discussion with ERS. That door is open and that's the principle that we apply honorable chair. But people don't know it, I think, because the problem the VAT system says the moment you invoice that becomes due. And unfortunately, if you've invoiceed government and you are waiting 60 days to get paid, you are expected to pay on the 25th day you're supposed to pay your VAT and you don't have that money bum bum with you. And it's not your fault. It's government.

[00:48:51]The same government that is asking for the tax is the one that's not paying you. And so we've got that mechanism where you can open the doors open at the RS. You go and you explain your situation and and you make sure that on a monthly basis you'll be reporting.

[00:49:02]You'll be in some kind of system. We're reporting say this month now I've received that money. I'm paying this one. I've received that money. I'm pay you'll be in some kind of system there.

[00:49:09]But um but the but we are we are not uh charging you uh charging you for late payments if it's government. So so just for clarity but but that's that's a good question because I know people always asking me and it seems like people don't know this so it'll be very good for the citizens to understand that better Mr. Chairman. Thank you >> minister. Um thank you. uh and I never finish but I just want to um emphasize the point that you you've just address yourself to the last one you know Minister and it's so frustrating to some of us because You know, I is not interested.

[00:50:42]was win.

[00:50:45]Honorable Good.

[00:51:24]RDF micro.

[00:51:37]reality.

[00:51:38]They don't even have fuel to check.

[00:51:56]Just keep this thing moving.

[00:52:13]It's terrible. So the crisis how hard it is for you. But we were pleading with you. They don't even have fuel to go and see the project in your prioritization of payments.

[00:52:32]Thank you.

[00:52:41]It's two issues.

[00:52:58]Honorable minister.

[00:53:19]Is it not possible invoicing number two from pillar to post that is the sight of the business people.

[00:53:59]So in the absence of writing these are the stages that you must go through. I thank you chair.

[00:54:39]kind of like a certificate because clearance clearance.

[00:55:02]clearance.

[00:55:08]Fore honorable minister, you may respond, But minister to me it's inconceivable feels is still a government entity. So is if the governmental on the one hand I think there is something so we may have to consider uh doing something legislation at least in that area. Thank you.

[00:56:28]>> Thank you. Thank you honorable chair. Um look honorable chair I think it it does it does come down to a discussion I in fact sorry I'll start with your I'll start with your last question first it does come down to a discussion of even though we in cash flow constraints we still need to do the right thing and I'll use an example as here comes cycle receipts we've we've committed we've signed an agreement with civil servants we're going to pay that back pay of 85% in July now the truth is I can promise you I've got more urgent payments than that 80 850 million which I which I would love to actually pay like like microp projects. Yeah, I would love to to put money towards oh what can we do?

[00:57:09]But the problem is when you've made a commitment as government and you've given a firm date as government to now get to that date the money is there and now you start saying ah and you start scratching your head you start you start creating a lot of instability you start creating distrust I know you can say there's distrust other side but at the same time we've made a commitment here and it's a very similar and that's why I'm saying unfortunately we have to pay the civil servants the 850 million when it comes in from su because it's been identified over a year ago say this July cycle payment will pay the 85%. So, so unfortunately we have to stick to this kind of commitments and the bonus is a very similar discussion to that honorable chair where if we've made an agreement with ERS to say and a collective agreement agreement which is signed with a union is to say we'll set we'll set a stretched bonus a stretched target. It's not to say ERS says oh minister next year we'll collect 18 billion. I say oh great okay you'll get a bonus on 18 billion. We don't do that.

[00:58:05]We say to them if you collect 18.7 billion now you'll get a bonus. So, so the bonus is not just for doing their job. The bonus is for going over and beyond the target to be able to reach it. And hence they haven't reached it for 5 years or they reached it once in the last 5 years is because really we stretch it. In fact, this year to put it because of Iran now we've stretched it too far and I'm scared that they're going to just lose incentive because they they can see this target for this target. So so so Mr. Chairman again we this is debatable I suppose is the bonus right or wrong but but the bonus is structured as if there isn't a cash flow crisis now I know you add the cash flow crisis to it looks maybe awkward but one can't look at everything from a cash flow crisis perspective you need to look at what is the right thing to do and then I now unfortunately we've got a cash flow crisis I know I'm not convincing you honorable chair but this is I'm giving you the the motive behind it why we do it and why we still think it is the right thing to do but let me go into the questions um honorable from to say micro has got nothing. Uh first of all, Mr. Chairman, what what I must declare and what micro projects and I know and I love micro projects. Please don't get me wrong. I I believe they're doing a great job. The reason why I fully support a lot of the funding going to micro projects is because they do they work efficiently, they work quick and they and it's it's cost-effective what they do. So I fully support them. But the rule with micro projects has always been they do not put a contractor in place until they have the money in their bank. Something changed on the chairperson. So which means we had at some point we had a we had a crisis. We allowed them to spend because they didn't have the money but we allowed them to put some contracts in place to put some roofs onto schools because schools opening saying the money's come from NDMA. The money got released. They got the money from NDMA.

[00:59:50]Once they had permission to put roofs on schools without the budget in their bank account and since that day now it's just the gates have burst open and they are now issuing contracts putting contractors in place all over the place without the money in their bank account.

[01:00:04]And unfortunately now that we're having a cash flow crisis or cash flow, it's not even a crisis maybe yet. It's a cash flow tightness and a cash flow constraint. We are having must watch out how we put things. But uh uh but but but at the same time we are we are we it's now making a a cash flow tightness. It's making it a crisis because now we're having all these contractors out there that have now been put to work and they did not have the money in the bank account.

[01:00:30]Unfortunately, we are going to have to bring good practice back to microp project and micro projects, the ones that are out there. Stop issuing any new contracts. Let's get whatever money you get. Let's pay the contractors that are there. And only when they are paid and the money is in your account like you've done for the last 20 years do you only then put a contractor in place. I would I really believe honorable chair we have to bring that principle back in to the practice of how we work with microp projects. So um but but the truth is on a weekly basis honorable wei and Mr. Chairman we honestly do do what we can for micro they are far behind at the moment. I'm not even going to try and defend that they are they are not they are far behind but but we understand the pressure we understand the crisis but unfortunately if it's a matter of do you pay do you keep the lights on or do you pay micro or do you pay salaries or do you pay or do you pay debt do you pay micro unfortunately those other things if you don't pay them it's game over.

[01:01:23]It's it's a it's a much your your small problem becomes a massive problem. So unfortunately we pay what we can but they are not at the it's it's not like it's game over if you don't pay in this week. So for that reason unfortunately these amounts roll and they do get there. Um honorable chair. So again I think honorable DS just did say because I understand it's I understand it's it's a it's a massive problem out there with microp projects projects uh being stalled and contractors leaving site. I do get that uh and and that's why we're trying to raise the money to be able to settle it and like I say something might come out soon but as we sit here uh it is still very tight. Uh put something in legislation I think is what the DS is recommending. Obviously we can consider that we can discuss that and to see what we what we can do along those lines. And then um honorable villain was saying give government suppliers some sort of tax clearance. I I think let let me actually just be very clear, honorable chairperson. We need to understand that government about a year and a half ago changed how we handle VAT on government suppliers and government projects. No longer does a government supplier get VAT, which means that ERS does not demand VAT from government suppliers. So VAT is not our problem here. VAT is deducted from source, which means that when ERS pays a supplier, they've got a supplier that's done a job for 20 million, the VAT is 3 million, they pay ERS the 3 million directly and they pay the contractor the 20 million directly.

[01:02:57]So, which means that there's no longer that. So, it means the contractors no longer those don't no longer have a VAT problem, but they still sometimes have a income tax problem. So sometimes you find that they've done work. You come to year end or you get to midyear when you must pay when you pay um midyear taxes and you find there now it's tight for paying income tax and that's maybe where taxivity comes in. But we have dealt with the VAT one because at the same time what we sometimes found was suppliers take the VAT and then it gets eaten as well. It doesn't get the portion that should be going to ERS doesn't go. So ERS even though even though they might not be getting it they can claim. So all the input VAT they can claim from ERS does pay that and Treasury then pays them the VAT. So we have averted the problem the VAT problem which is by far the biggest problem but the the income tax one is still an issue and that's where we're saying the doors open for them to come and talk but that is really much less much less of a crisis than the VAT crisis. I I think that's the more or less catching the responses I will >> that's fine minister before I allow you to proceed to the next phase I just want to make sure that um maybe speak a little bit about in defense of my corporations.

[01:04:11]We as the government or should I say the executive in this particular case and again with very good intentions. I believe there have been storms that have hit numerous schools in this country.

[01:04:25]Numerous schools. We go there as the executive.

[01:04:31]when you call the executive you say tomorrow you see and it's not one school the government does not wait for that project and and obvious and I can assure you and you know it.

[01:05:24]My goodness me.

[01:05:36]you know, but I'm saying ministerations.

[01:05:50]It is the government Not that I want you to respond.

[01:06:10]Honorable minister.

[01:06:12]Um the next one.

[01:06:18]Yes.

[01:06:36]200 million.

[01:06:47]The other money How about the projects minister? Now we move on to preamble income tax amendment bill members of parliament and designated office bearers pension fund amendment bill and fuel tax amendment bill in that order. Thank you minister.

[01:07:31]>> Thank you honorable chair. Let me go through those preamles. Uh so as you said honorable chair the first one is income tax amendment bill number seven of 2026.

[01:07:39]The ministry of the ministry of finance submit the income tax amendment bill number 7 2026 in consideration for the honorable committee. The income tax order of 1975 provides the legal and regulatory framework for the levying administration and collection of personal and corporate income tax on a source basis. It aims at generating revenue for government ensuring that there is equitable income redistribution. This amendment seeks to clarify the meaning of eswatin source income. Revise the threshold of permanent establishment and enhance information sharing by ERS with public authorities.

[01:08:16]Provide for the taxation of gains arising from disposal of business assets. Align timelines for the remittance of withholding tax. Reduce administration of penalties and provide for matters incidental there too.

[01:08:32]Section two. The legislation currently has an ambiguous term as pointed out by the decision by the revenue tribunal in awarding a case against ERS stating that Esatini sourced income is not defined in legislation. To avoid such decisions, it's prudent for the policy maker to insert a definition as such. It it has further been noted that the definition of permanent establishment allows non-resident contractors with short contracts to be assessed at the end of a tax year which poses a risk to them declaring a loss. Yes. If yet if the period is to be extended from the current 30 days to 90 days, there's definitive revenue acrewing to government through withholding tax at 15%.

[01:09:17]Section five, in order for your RS to expand their mandate of revenue collection administration, exchange of information with other stakeholders is a key driver. In this regard, the order is amended to uh legalize the inclusion of other key stakeholders that are custodians of permanent taxpayer information.

[01:09:39]Section seven. A new paragraph aimed at aligning with the introduction of taxation of disposal of business assets is proposed to be added in section 7.

[01:09:47]This makes it legal that gains from the disposal of a business asset be liable to tax.

[01:09:54]Section 32B, 32 C, and 32D. These sections are open are open to multiple dates on which the withholding tax will remitted to the CG. And this amendment seeks to fix the date at a specific day for any month following the transaction having been made. The second schedule, this amendment was brought for consideration by parliament 2023.

[01:10:15]However, assembly did not deliberate on it. Yet, Senate did uh and disposed that the alternative penalty be reduced from 250 milini to 50 per day. During the publication in the gazette, the figure was printed at 200 mlangi. this uh through a corendum a proposal was made to the honorable speaker to the effect that this penalty be reduced to 50 mlangi per day. This is in line with what we were talking about earlier where there was some clarity needed on this point. Uh in line of this bill uh this bill seeks to ensure that the existing tax administration loopholes are closed.

[01:10:51]Uh the honorable committee has therefore requested to approve to consider this bill to facilitate the attainment of the stated objectives.

[01:10:59]So right the next one is now the members of parliament and designated office bearers pension fund the pension fund that's been set up for us as parliamentarians. The ministry of finance submits the madu amendment bill of 2026 for consideration by the honorable committee. The bill seeks to amend the members of parliament and designates office bearers pension fund act 2013 so as to prescribe a new rule for the payment of annuities to reelected or reappointed members of the fund. Specifically, this new provision states that a member who is reelected to parliament or reappointed to a designated office for a second term shall not be paid by the fund the annuity benefit and that such funds uh benefits shall be preserved by the fund.

[01:11:45]Currently, a member is entitled to an annuity payment for the previous term irrespective of reelection or reappointment into office and this has put strain on the fund. However, this new rule provides for a modified approach for members being reelected or reappointed for a third term as such members shall receive as an annuity from the fund monies that acrewed during the first term. While monies acrewed during the second term shall be preserved by the fund. Finally, with respect to a member who's reelected to parliament or reappointed to a designated office for the fourth or subsequent term, the fund shall page that member pension benefits as a lump sum upon the third term.

[01:12:24]Benefits acrewing to the member relating to the fourth or subsequent terms shall be preserved by the fund to be payable to that member upon separation from the fund.

[01:12:35]We now get to the fuel tax amendment bill of 2026.

[01:12:40]The minister of finance submits a fuel tax amendment bill uh 2026 for consideration by the whole committee.

[01:12:47]The introduction of the fuel tax act of 2022 was meant to give the commissioner general powers to collect fuel tax and ensure that wholesalers comply as per the dictates of the act. Further, the commissioner general initially initially had the authority limited to collect the fuel tax but did not have the powers to enforce it in the event of non-compliance but was subsequently given appropriate powers to ensure compliance by wholesalers of petroleum products. The current uh setup dictates that the fuel tax becomes due and payable after the sale to other licensed uh wholesalers or retailers. Such an arrangement means that fuel tax is not collected at importation. This is despite the fact that all petroleum products are imported into Esatini. It has been realized that fuel tax collected is decreasing by the day whereas the numbers of consumers is increasing. It is for this reason that a decision has been made to collect fuel tax at importation.

[01:13:47]Consultations have been made with shareholders or stakeholders rather including the Ministry of Natural Resources and Energy and the Esatini Revenue Services and concurred with the pattern of increasing consumption numbers against decreasing fuel tax collected. analysis reflects that the country will benefit from increased revenue resulting from the collection of fuel tax at importation as opposed the obtaining situation where imported fuel is not fully accounted for as fuel tax is currently levied at pump price.

[01:14:17]Furthermore, living fuel tax on future locally manufactured petroleum products would contribute positively towards increased revenue. In line of this, the bill seeks to ensure that revenue leakages are closed through the collection of fuel tax at importation.

[01:14:30]Thank you, Mr. Thank you minister cruiser.

[01:14:50]Oh yeah.

[01:14:59]200.

[01:15:20]What contractors contractors Then minister 200 for Parliament 2013. Minister The same minister.

[01:16:56]at the time.

[01:17:17]Lord That was wrong. Minister practice the same office that practice ministeract Welcome. And then Screen minister, educator, honorable minister, chair tax amendment. This was this amendment was brought for consideration by parliament in 2023.

[01:18:36]However, assembly did not deliberate on it. Yet, Senate did and proposed that from 250 to 50.

[01:19:01]I mean, issues bills of this nature. So refresh what transpired and how eventually Firstly, maybe reduction from the 200 to 50. It's it's it's it's recommendable.

[01:19:50]So, it's We are hoping which is much better tax amendment.

[01:20:13]Fuel tax I collect from importation.

[01:20:29]So it's it's much better because volumes will still be the same will be known.

[01:20:47]Welcome income tax amendment particular issue 200 and then we hoping to 25 now honorable chairperson I've spoken to you about this one a couple of times and I've also spoken to the minister I bought that myself on this issue.

[01:21:23]The the house never never never pronounced itself on the schedule 200. The others were reduced to 25 but this one only this one and contradiction the house.

[01:21:56]So the message from Senate 25, that was a message from Senate.

[01:22:03]But still never pronounced itself on that one. But then let's come to the So you correcting an error from 20 to 50 m. What about the people that have been affected by this era?

[01:22:47]Those that were made to pay the 200 malang.

[01:22:52]How then are they reimbured or how are they taken care of because of this error?

[01:22:59]Because the is an admission of the error and also prop like the other fines,000 but even there's still no at least I think for me and the the closes. Thank you.

[01:23:54]200 to 50.

[01:24:26]In fact, at least at least East.

[01:24:56]school.

[01:25:37]Minister. Foreign speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

[01:26:10]And then Stakeholder meeting.

[01:26:30]Stakeholders.

[01:26:41]Google support.

[01:27:26]I'm sure I thinkers Fore years a punishment.

[01:28:33]After presentation, Minister You could see it opted for 50 mang while 200 Thank you.

[01:29:24]I think 50 into plume rules into implemented that that rule.

[01:30:05]I think that pressure has come from the public.

[01:30:21]It does not come from us because objective So, so it's a in general you never you never win with this thing but at some point the money must make it must be there to say to people.

[01:31:21]I understand the spirit.

[01:31:46]It must be sustainable.

[01:32:01]Within five years, invest.

[01:32:17]So this how sustainable is this fund to continue to pay others because But it's better better devil than the 200.

[01:33:26]for I think I think The house never agreed to it. Never agreed to hop never agreed to that. In fact, even income tax. There we would see the report finance commit.

[01:35:29]But this matter was raised 250 Parliament two weeks ago.

[01:35:57]Now this I kept at least 10,000 million 10,000.

[01:36:25]It's on record.

[01:36:28]Now, all these records.

[01:36:49]Now, granted, report to 50 report then it becomes law between 20050,000.

[01:37:43]The question order minister is who then said or who then put the penalty That is the fundamental question because neither of the two chambers might be about 200,000 but people were charged 200,000 I'm sorry 200 per day now I'm involved more than yes it is true it is in the interest of the fund the fund it's not about no as an individual and two it is not correct this is a pension fund pension fund Parliament white now.

[01:39:17]more than it is about the funding. You don't want to collapse the fund but at the same time it is about you more than anything. This is seeks to protect you because and is earning interest for gainful employment.

[01:39:47]So you don't want to say that is not in your interest as an individual.

[01:40:20]Because it's not about you, it's about yourself and your family.

[01:41:01]We are faced with those situations and you don't want to do that to yourselves.

[01:41:11]No, no.

[01:41:17]At the end of the day, whatever the case is, based on experience and besides, you don't want to collapse a pension fund.

[01:41:37]That is not the purpose of a pension.

[01:41:43]Anyway, that is my my you may proceed.

[01:42:07]Thank you.

[01:42:09]>> Thank Thank you, honorable chair. Um, honorable. Okay. So, so if you don't mind, I'm going to summarize because there are a few very general questions along here. So, I'm just going to summarize them. The first one being the 200 mlang guinea 250 mlang, 200 mlang guinea, 50 milangini requests for 10 mlang. Um, first of all, let me just be clear, honorable chair, this is not neat. As government, we are not proud of how this is handled. This is an untidy element. I really don't I really please believe me there was no intent. We don't do that.

[01:42:38]We follow what uh parliament tells us to do and we try and get it right. What I understand and that is that in the body of the act there were numbers that were changed but this 200 was somehow it's called hidden in a schedule and and in the schedule it was 200 is what I understand. We can clarify this maybe in the in the when we get when we get to workshop this. Apparently it was 200. It was 250 in the body of the act but somehow the schedule was referring to 200 and in assembly it wasn't it wasn't discussed at schedule because we discussed everything in the main act the schedule somehow it is what I understand and I might be wrong what I understand is it wasn't discussed there when it got to Senate they said no no no 50 because they then picked up that somehow everything was changed in the act but this one was not as far as I know honorable chair if I if I recall correctly when senate when senate issues came back to the house there were this one and a lot of other ones and the and the recommendations were rejected by the house I can't recall exactly but this is what I think I recall but we'll clarify all but the bottom line honorable chair and that is that we have to fix it that's why we're opening it here is to say it's a problem honorable welcome is spot on he's been he's been uh he approached he's spoken about this matter through the speaker the speaker has spoken about the speaker even himself has applied himself in this matter and understands it quite well and um and at the same time at some point I was saying are we applying it? They were saying minister not applying it but we I'm hearing from the private sector and even from speaker fence minister it's being applied this 200 mlang guinea so again we're going to have to then discuss if we then make a change again we've got two choices here do we go a corendum right now my team at fiscal is saying minister we could do a coragendum hence I'm talking about a corendum it opens the door on little welcome is talking to you do a coragendum now now you somehow have to unscrambling an egg is quite difficult you can't you can't unscramble something that's scrambled it becomes it becomes tricky At the same time we are putting it here because it must be fixed. And so we are pleading with the house help us fix it. What's the right solution here? Now honorable chair to say what is the solution here. I think we must keep in mind what what exactly this penalty is for honorable chair.

[01:44:42]It's when an employer makes an agreement with an employee. I'm going to employ you for let's just say 10,000 Emilangini. They agree employer is going to pay him 10,000. When payday comes the employer says uh Gwam you don't get 10,000. There's tax you 35,000 is non- taxable you've now getting 6 half,000 above the tax threshold 25% 1.5,000 from yolo and I'm paying it to the tax man as the employer the employee he just gets his 8 half,000 mlang instead of the 10,000 upon because it's his tax that is being paid on his behalf to the tax man instead the employer says while I'm battling with my issues. I'm keeping your tax in my pocket for a period of time while I'm battling. It's we are punishing the employers and employees. We are this is not touching them at all. We are not trying to punish any that's being employed. We are touching businesses that are keeping tax that they are withholding from employees. So what we are saying is we need we need an indog for this thing. If we say 10i honorables honestly they're going to say oh thank you it's I'm going to make a lot more money from interest on this money than I'm going to pay for 10 I'll pay the 10 millangi and I'm going to make lots of cash because the business I come from it's millions pe is a figure which is in the millions it's not lower it's it's a big number the moment companies think oh I'll rather pay the 10 mlangi we got much bigger problems here and and it's very wrong for employer to keep pie from which has been deducted from his employees. So please honorables work with us here. I'm not I'm not sure 50 mlangi is right. I'm not sure 200 but let us discuss this at the workshop. Let us find out what's the right amount. But the truth is if we make the indu going to work against us instead of for us here. So so so it will so so please let us let us try and do the right thing on this one. Uh honorables when it comes to mapadu I will I will again I'll plead let us have a let us workshop this issue clearly um just keeping in mind honorables that if you just just from a financing perspective if you have a fund that that that that it accumulates shortterm and if the fund gets depleted after 5 years and it starts again depleted you can't invest that money for very good returns. You need a fund that has it can have a little it can have this but the money it must have money in it. If you have a if you have a fund that keeps cash in it you get very good returns for members. And so here for all of us myself included Mapadu needs to have a longerterm cash in it to get a good return for us for the money that we're even leaving for short term. If short-term has got long-term elements it's got more you know we can talk about this unpack it clearly. I'm sure when I looked at it, it felt like they were doing the right thing. And so, let us let us have a let us try and see.

[01:47:49]They're trying to accommodate those that you come in for one term and you go home, you're getting the best possible outcome. But if you are staying for more terms, then at least you are insured that by the time you leave at the end of the term, you're getting something. But you got some flexibility. It's it's a combination. I believe that is the right thing. At the same time, leaving the fund with money in it so that even the short term um Okay, so those were the two big issues and I think I'll then I'll then discuss everyone's but skip those ones as we go.

[01:48:19]Uh honorable Diaz was talking about this one. Honorable uh doctor was talking about uh the 50 mileni as well but supported the fuel tax. Thank you for that honorable honorable welcome. Uh also talking about the 50 mlangi and what happened there. Uh how we going to back pay the corendum? You're right. It it is it is a tricky one. We're going to have to look at that and there should be a cap. I I think it's a very good idea honorable. maybe build a cap into it is to say that if you are um if you're deducting again we must just be very careful that PE you must understand PY can be very big numbers honorable PE could be I mean PE of my salary is whatever 20,000 I don't know what the exact number is but keep in mind we don't want to incentivize employers to withhold this money they they are business people if you say there's a cap of 10,000 MLini and they say oh let's keep let's keep my 20,000 000 for 5 years and there's a cap of 10,000.

[01:49:12]Ohani, they're going to keep it and they're going to pay the 10,000 after 5 years because it's easier than paying over my tax. So we just be careful honorables. We must do the right thing there. Minister 200 Then before so honorable just for clarity you are right in the house of assembly a lot of these charges were reduced we are applying the reduced charges es the only one that was not amended is the P A Y1.

[01:50:13]So as the acting chair was saying uh now he he he he he was saying that uh it's not you know it's it was broad it was broad but the assembly reduced all the other ones that affected masati more directly and uh and those were applying properly there's no problem there that was it was amended those amendments were made that's it was only this one that stayed on the side the p a yee fine is the one that was not amended and again I think honorable Alec has got a point we need to be careful if we take it to 50 honorables we need you know, we need to we need to pitch it correctly because but this one is not affecting employees directly. It's it's affecting employers that withhold that withhold this payments. Um uh having a cap is maybe a good idea, but like I say, watch out for businessmen. They sometimes they see an opportunity the cap might mean that they're incentivized to withhold this money again. Uh honorable Meta was saying maybe make a 10 mangini. I wouldn't I wouldn't suggest it.

[01:51:08]Honorables Madu a backpay portion. Um he's also asking will the a good question will what we are doing on the fuel tax possibly increase the price of fuel. Uh it won't honorable the fuel price in Esatini is regulated unlike Squatlante next door recently they opened it to say the fuel pump can charge what they want. This is the this is the base price and people can compete in Eswatini. We don't do that. We regulate the pump price as well in Eswatini. So which means that we are saying that you're going to pay tax here and the pump price remains as it is at at this stage. That's how this that's how we structure it. So so so to answer your question, it won't affect the pump price.

[01:51:45]Honorable Princess Goenzi was asking if have stakeholders been engaged on the Madu one. I think the beauty of this one is stakeholders are being engaged as we sit here we engaging stakeholders and we are discussing the stakeholders. So, so, so but I'm sure that they did something but I'm saying is that you know the beauty is it's cabinet it's uh and it's us here and and obviously there are the but there are the other ones uh there will definitely I'm sure that there was stakeholder consultation done at a certain level but uh but again the main ones is us or the the bigger the bigger amounts are the ones that uh have to approve it um the members should have a choice uh regarding pension uh you got a good point honorable man was talking about the 50 malangi 2 which I think I've responded to uh honorable able was saying the included rule uh and he's right we need to we need to consider that maybe we'll look from the legal perspective does that does this apply which means that if the p a p a yee that I withheld was 105 the example I used and the fine and the penalties get worse than 105 do they does this rule apply and does that hurt them it does apply okay so which means that uh it's a good point uh we need to then make sure that ERS doesn't say okay you withheld a 105 but your penalty is 000. You know, I mean, we need to we need to double check on that one. Um, uh, we then have honorable Lucaba also talking about the same two things, the 200 milini and the mopadu. Honorable um, uh, matanta mata, sorry. Um, should should be should be 10 mlangi and the mopadu and does it give them their money. Um, huh. Matuna.

[01:53:23]Sorry, I'm worried I pronounced it wrong. I didn't see if I wrote a u there properly. I didn't write it properly there.

[01:53:31]Um, honorable chair, you were referring to the Hanset, what the Hanset was saying. And like I say, please, if you don't mind, we will absolutely clean this up now. We'll work out what the best way forward is in the workshop and we'll apply that and we'll really make sure we done. I am confessing to the fact that I agree it wasn't neat. We should really have handled it differently. But just your direct question was where does the 200 come from? Uh, the 200 was actually the amount in the schedule. Now, and that's where it shows we we were making a mistake in the first place cuz there was a 250 in the body of the act for the PA fine that we changed. But somehow in the schedule, this 200 remained 200. We didn't actually move it around. It was actually 200 and it stayed 200 is my understanding honorable chair of the slot and then I think thank you very much ch you you just broadened our understanding of the of the Madu one and I think that is uh that is understood now. Thank you.

[01:54:24]supplementary questions.

[01:54:29]>> Thank you honorable chap. I I think uh chairperson the honorable minister needs to to verify on the issue to say the 200 only applies to pie because the general feeling of the of the population it's like the 200 apply anywhere on any default with is it v is it is it income tax is it returns it's it's the general feeling is like everything is 200 and if it is it is only for the pa A Y E honestly it makes a lot of sense because if it goes any less people would benefit from defaulting they will make money from it and they will purposely do so but the way it currently is like they apply the same amount in everything I don't know if if it is totally different the understanding chair it's it's like that on the ground thank you chair >> the understanding or the practice >> clarify But just for again taking the advantage of my other head I'm happy in this in this room there are two gentlemen who attended the stakeholder consultations which we do regionally regions was brought up to the stakeholders and because it's about our membership will come is equally responsible.

[01:56:19]that needs to be corrected.

[01:56:28]And then I think we are stakeholders.

[01:56:48]We expected consultations.

[01:57:14]You can you can invest your money.

[01:57:20]Because it has set something% 11%.

[01:57:40]But here it's not clear at all.

[01:57:53]Conflicted on this one. I think We need irresponsible especially when it comes to demand.

[01:58:32]Thank you very much.

[01:58:51]statements.

[01:58:54]The only investments but Number two, we all know 59.

[01:59:39]So that's all.

[01:59:57]Thank you, honorable. I I think as as so as it may test chair, it is a fact that pension fund is is is administered as pension. You only get it when you change employment or when you lose your employment or when you retire or when you die. I think if we we want to go like we want to take the money while you're still employed, then we need to change the entire name not to be a pension fund. Maybe a provident fund will work in that way. I think uh doing a consultation like the other members has just said here will help to to just educate them at the entitlements of a pension fund. You cannot take your pension you are still with the same employer not unless it's provident fund or any other fund regardless how much uncomfortable you are you you are with the conditions in the fund but if it's pension you have to separate move away from that fund that is when you can be able to benefit from those funds.

[02:00:54]>> Thank you chair.

[02:01:02]It will also help if government at least because Sorry.

[02:01:33]>> At least more than 25.

[02:01:41]Welcome.

[02:01:58]And maybe because they'll be making money somewhere else using this man includen maybe.

[02:02:25]Very stringent.

[02:02:27]You've been holding this money with this money deliberately.

[02:02:55]investor something.

[02:03:02]So by the time Thank you, honorable chairman graduate.

[02:03:28]Usually some of us have never been employed permanently, but get a contract with graduate talking about something else. Uh, I think maybe Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

[02:04:27]Income tax bracket for inflection because Maybe intervention clearly you understand. I am aware.

[02:05:17]the members who have an issue.

[02:05:20]It's a it's an individual problem.

[02:05:25]No matter how much you can explain to them and they don't come to workshops.

[02:05:30]Two years ago we had a workshop inductor.

[02:05:35]They never came but first thing they would open the mouth and what is the issue because each and every member so all I'm saying this is your fund this is a pension fund legislature it's not about chairman If you have a problem with the chairman, you may have the chairman, but the law will always stand and that is a fact.

[02:06:12]Honorable minister, you may respond.

[02:06:16]>> Thank thank you very much honorable chair. Honorable chair sham many of the honorables just made statements and gave us advice but I'll answer the few that were actually questions. So honorable was asking about um the the 200 mlang guinea which applies to pie and that is a practice all from ERS is confirming to say we number one the legislation the 200 mlang guinea is only applying to pie according to the current legislation that we have um uh ERS is confirming to say they definitely don't apply the 200 mlang guinea to other fines they're applying the 25 mlang against other fines but please honorables we can check this we're going to workshop let's have a look make 100% sure if If you if you've heard people are playing this for other elements, please bring that evidence. It can help us. Mistakes can be made. But but the legislation is clear. It's only applicable to PE as we speak. And I think it has it seems like it is being applied to PAE is is what we are hearing. Otherwise, Honorable Manzini made some statements which I think we'll we'll clarify on further. DS statements should be come. Honorable doctor said uh maybe more MP should come back. It'll be a good idea. Honorable welcome did um did did make a good statement to say that we need to really keep in mind that we don't incentivize um incentivize employers here too. So and and that that's a good point honorable chair. We need to get that balance right. We're not we're not overly punishing them something daily which is not deserved but at the same time hey these are business people and they they're very crafty and they could they could also very well find themselves intentionally withholding if if we get the numbers wrong. So we need to make sure very it is a it is a punitive thing to to do and to be applied. Honorable Alex should do a workshop. Uh I think uh honorable Masipul is talking about a gratuitity and and I think honorable chair was correct. There is obviously there is a gratuitity element. So those MPs that that come back I know we made a change honorable chair that those that come back don't get the gratuitity. Those that those that come back yeah those that don't come back get the gratuitity.

[02:08:17]Those that come back don't get it.

[02:08:20]Honorable Ellen uh is raised a good question on the brackets. We we we don't we haven't been changing brackets uh honorable for a while and he is right.

[02:08:29]We we need to start considering brackets. The 3,500 minimum bracket has been there for too long. It is something we need to we need to start considering.

[02:08:36]So we will take that point and start having a look at that. Unfortunately at the moment because we are trying to get as much tax as possible without actually coming with new taxes. These brackets have not moved. uh but inflation is there and three and a half thousand malangini is becoming a bit a bit low.

[02:08:50]We do need to consider that uh as soon as possible. Thank you honorable chair.

[02:08:55]That's it from me on these batches of legislation.

[02:08:58]>> Thank you. I think closer was lamenting about a payment that was was never was never made to them. So I don't know whether you responded to that minister.

[02:09:10]Did you?

[02:09:11]>> And no I don't respond to that one cuz I wasn't there when it wasn't made.

[02:09:20]Well, I think the minister that made the payment is supposed to be the one talking.

[02:09:27]Anyway, thank you very much, honorable minister.

[02:09:32]Welcome. Yes. Yes. Honorable and stuff.

[02:09:48]What had you identified in terms of because then you could have maybe funded someone's uh personal life by writing off such an amount of debt you know maybe that clarity you thank >> uh please ask the minister >> thank you honorable chair so so obviously audits are done on an annual basis and we've done quite a few different audits on on the university you're referring to as an example and uh and if there was that money flowing into personal lives or or being stolen that would have been coming up in those elements. Uh but at the same time what we found when we looked at UNESCO they had this if I recall 1 billion tax liability and it was made up of different tax elements. There was POA in there. There was uh uh other there was VAT they hadn't paid over. There was uh taxes that they income tax from their money-making entities that hadn't been paid over and all the penalties and all the interest. Uh and the truth is it got to a point where they just couldn't pay it. So if you recall we put in a rule with all the paristat and many of them found themselves in the same place is to say show us six months of good behavior of paying all your taxes for six months and we'll write off the debt. We were never going to get it anyway honorable.

[02:11:05]was it was absolutely impossible for them to repay it and so they did they did that then in fact we helped them because we started holding it from source before paying them the subvention we held the tax at source and that then kind of forced their hand they then complied for 6 months and then we then wrote off the tax but um uh but we we we will we believe that the audits would have highlighted anything to what you are referring to in case money was siphoned but uh but the bottom line is they were they were just uh running an unsustainable business and got themselves into that financial dilemma.

[02:11:39]>> Thank you.

[02:11:42]Let's move to regulations RSF customs and exercise amendment to schedule. I think minister please.

[02:12:03]Thank you very much honorable chair.

[02:12:04]I'll start with the revenue stabilization fund amendments regulations. So uh yeah all three of these not one of them are new regulations. All three are previous regulations. They are just amendments to regulations. The first one is a stabilization fund. Um uh honorable chair the and finance committee the ministry of finance submits the revenue stabilization fund regulations for 2026 for consideration by the committee. The purpose of amending regulations is to seek approval for the revenue stabilization fund amendments regulation 2026 which is proposed to amend regulation six of the revenue stabilization fund regulations 2023 in order to extend the period for ministerial discretion over the capitalization of the fund to two years to from two years to three years.

[02:12:53]Parliament recall that the member states of the southern African customs union including the kenility are highly dependent on su receipts as a major source of government revenue. However, su revenues are inherently volatile due to the cyclical nature of the three components of the common revenue pool namely customs excise and the development component particularly the customs component is the one that's very volatile.

[02:13:19]The proposed amendment seek to amend the ministerial discretion over the capitalization of the fund by one.

[02:13:24]>> Sorry, honorable minister honorable.

[02:13:29]Thank you. Proceed honorable minister.

[02:13:32]>> Thank you. Thank you honorable chair. Um so we we requesting additional one year from the current two years to three years thereby providing flexibility during this current financial year 2627.

[02:13:44]Um and this extension is necessary to mitigate anticipated fiscal and cash flow pressures in the 2627 financial year and to ensure that sufficient resources remain available to finance priority government programs and obligations. This approach strikes a balance or strikes uh sorry this approach strikes uh an appropriate balance between maintaining fiscal discipline, preserving the integrity of the fund and ensuring adequate budget financing. It also demonstrates government's continued commitment to fiscal sustainability, thereby mitigating any potential concerns from credit rating agencies and development partners including the World Bank. This initial discretion was necessary because cycle receipts increased significantly from 3.8 billion mlangi in 2223 to 11.8 billion in 23 to 2024.

[02:14:34]Strict application of the five-year moving average formula at that time would have required a substantial deposit into the fund thereby reducing resources available to finance critical government expenditure. Subsequently, saku revenues have maintained consistently high averaging appro approximately 11.7 billion between 2023 and 2024 and 26 2027.

[02:14:59]That's the first one honorable chair.

[02:15:01]The next one's a custom excise amendment regulations.

[02:15:05]This one is quite simple. The Ministry of Finance submits the customs excise amendment regulation 2025 for consideration by the honorable committee. The regulation aims to revise upwards changes for customs uh operations which have not uh been revised in over a decade, hence no longer appropriate to the current time.

[02:15:25]This is therefore justified to revise them in order to support customs operations. Also the regulations ensure alignment with decisions taken by SAKU council of ministers on integration of customs operations as well as customs legislations across SAKU member states.

[02:15:44]This is essential to enhance intraaku trade. Additionally, the regulations legitimizes uh places of entry for commercial purposes into the country including the kingdom 3 international airport. This the main objective is to strengthen trade facilitation and support efforts geared towards economic development in our country.

[02:16:08]The last one for the day honorable chairperson is the value added tax amendment regulations of 2025.

[02:16:16]The minister of finance submits the value added tax amendment regulations 2025 uh for consideration by the honorable committee. The submission is consistent uh with section 84 of the VAT act of 2011 which empowers the minister to make regulations for better carrying out the effect of the provisions of the VAT act. The objective of this amendment is to harmonize and ensure alignment of the VAT legislation following the promulgation of the VAT amendment act of 2022 as well as an implement implementation of the VAT act which is the amendment of schedules notice in 2022 which provides VAT relief. It also enhances uh proper use of the reverse charge mechanism to support trade.

[02:17:04]Additionally, it provides clarity to the administration of vet in donor funded project projects consistent with the constitution of esadatini as well as international agreements designed to foster inclusive development in our country. This includes specifying the schedule of public international organizations in the vet regulations to strengthen administration of the VAT legislation. Thank you honorable chair honorable minister.

[02:17:36]The floor is open on the regulations for now. Thank you.

[02:17:56]Fundabilization fund.

[02:18:23]Latex regimes uniform is treated favorably.

[02:19:00]It has nothing to do with understanding.

[02:19:25]Thank you, honorable How much is it and what criteria governs its withdrawal?

[02:19:45]Thank you.

[02:19:51]That being said, Minister Yes.

[02:20:15]Then the question is thank you honorable minister you may respond.

[02:20:28]Thank you very much honorable chair if you don't mind I'll start at the last question. Um so just for clarity the the at saku level we have not agreed to say this min this country must change this it's not at the level all we've done is we've said that we need to try to align our regulations and laws around custom exile so that saku moves smoothly and so so at the moment that when we saying that at saku level ministers have agreed for alignment it is purely to say that we've agreed to say we all need to try and align in a certain way and that's what we're trying to do we are finding that our legislation maybe is saying uh this this is the amount of excise duties that are saying something else we are saying no no let's all make sure we're the same so that in saku which is the objective of saku in saku there's no like let's let's take VAT in Eswatini we just follow South Africa with VAT if there's a even if we are half a percent lower or half a percent higher it's chaos at the border because people must either pay in or claim or something funny so so so in that sense we always try to align to make sure smooth crossber transactions take place with our bigger neighbor uh around these issues. So, so that that's what you're referring to. It's not a matter of someone dictating to us to say you have to do this. It's not at all the case.

[02:21:42]It's just that we have agreed to try to align so that we make it smooth for our taxpayers and our companies. Uh otherwise then honorable Alec was asking uh are we not maybe leaving too much in the fund and and so honorable just just to explain in fact I'll maybe expand all together because obviously it's a question. So let let me start with the fund to to start off with the fund uh currently has about 1.75 billion Emma Guini in the fund. It is not a a theoretical figure honorable. It is real cash in a real account sitting at central bank central bank reports on it.

[02:22:14]If you look at the central bank reports you will find that um uh that that that the reports are reflecting exactly as I'm saying. Uh this is a year unlike the previous year. Last year we took money out of the fund. We had about 2.5 billion in the fund beginning of last year. Because we only got 10.4 billion from SAKU, we took 1 billion out of the fund so that we could continue spending 11.4 billion. This year we got 11.7 billion. So this year we are putting 300 million into the fund again because at the moment the average we are working on is 11.4 billion seems like the new average. Now the reason why we need this so so just to explain maybe the next question. Why do we need to change this 2 years to 3 years? If you recall, honorables, we had a extremely low year.

[02:23:00]In fact, put it this way. We did a few measures. If you if you recall, we for instance, we changed the the the gray import rules. There were gray imports coming to the country. We changed the rules from 15 years down to 8 years. It was it was tough. It people this this was it was a massive industry, but the industry was hurting our cycle receipts heavily. Fuel, we would allow most of our fuel just to come from Mosmbique as an example. was actually we paid the same price if it comes through South Africa or comes from Mosmb beek so we so what we did is we did some alignments we still kept the the channels open from Mosmb beek but we took it from I think almost 70% down to 20% from Mosmb beek overall those measures increased our amount of saku money from an average of about 7 billion to an average of about 11.4 4 billion just just the measures that we did. So we really managed to collect more cash. Reliance on SAKU is another story. We can talk another day on reliance on Sak. But it was foolish to leave money on the table as a country to leave money with other to give out our money to other countries. We now just verily we taking money that is due to us as Esatini now. Um but unfortunately now when we are using so so now the Saku the Saku stabilization fund says we will use a fiveyear rolling average. So, so we'll look backwards and look at the previous five years. Work out what's the average to see how much in this year you are using as an average which means you are cutting and filling.

[02:24:25]Now the problem with using going backwards is the 5.9 billion we received in when was it 2122 Masagashi I think there somewhere we re it was so low it was the lowest point in a long time 5.8 if the 5.8 8 billion is in the 5-year rolling average. And maybe in the workshop we can draw this out because it is a bit complicated to understand. But if the 5.8 is in the average, it means the average is a lot lower than what it should be. Meaning that this year I would have had to leave I would have left a whole lot more into the fund which was exactly as honorable saying now you end up putting in much more than you actually need to in the fund because you are using that one very low year. So all we asked this year was to say let's increase because because we knew that we said give the give the ministry discretion for two years and so we said so what we're asking for now is can we change it to say can we make it three years just so that that by the time we get to next year that 5.8 8 billion is now out of the 5-year rolling average. The rolling average is now what it should be and so so so that's the just to try and get your head around. I can see you understanding. So, so it's a so so just to understand what we are doing what the request is and that's what we're trying to do. So, so at the moment in the year that we are in once again we've applied the 11.4 4 billion and we are putting 300 million into the fund taking it from about 1.5 in the beginning of the year because there's interest also growing in the fund fortunately and it'll get to about 2 billion by the time the year is finished which will be very nice going to the next year with about 2 billion in the stabilization fund and it and it really makes a difference before our economy would spend and then all of a sudden it drops and you you got a real crisis. Um right the next question from uh honorable Alec was to say that uh you know how does this how does this different countries with different relationships with international suppliers affect us? Uh number one it really doesn't affect us quite heavily.

[02:26:16]What we must keep in mind and that is that SAKU is around imports. Uh it's it's it's tariffs on imports. It's structured in a way that if the if the imports are for agriculture or for industrialization, there's normally not much of a tariff on it. If it's for luxury goods, if you're buying a Lamborghini, let's just say in Eswatini, you're going to pay 40% import duty on a luxury car. So it's it's it's skewed towards it's skewed towards charging heavily for luxury goods but trying not to not to affect agriculture industrialization the the growth of your economy. It's trying to tax the upper end about 140 billion every year from the whole cycle pool goes into it.

[02:27:01]Ewatini contributes 1.5 billion into the fund and we receive 11.4 billion 11.4 on average from the fund. So it really is beneficial for us. But what I'm getting at and that is that we must understand that it's based on imports. So, so the restrictions that we're referring to to different countries, the restrictions are on exports which doesn't affect the fund at all. It's on imports. Eswatini the sec our second biggest import partner. South Africa is number one. Our second one is mainland China is our second biggest country we import from which means goods we import from mainland China. If there's tariffs due, we pay our tariffs and the money goes into the fund as we should. So, so, so the different so the export funies that we have don't have an impact on the on the fund as sorry for taking a bit long but if I go short it sounds like I'm trying to avoid the question I think that's answering the questions uh honorable chair >> thank you very much speaker chair the stabilization I've got no problem it's it's justifiable extension one year from the minister every I do believe we still have a problem on illicit financial flows.

[02:28:47]picture.

[02:28:52]But we know for a fact, and we've spoken about this, as measures of closing the steps.

[02:29:21]Then China I don't know why our foreign policies we are friends to all enemy to none.

[02:29:55]What is the what is the the the position?

[02:30:10]the the proprian that is number one. You know it.

[02:30:37]Thank you chair.

[02:30:40]Thank you. Oh.

[02:30:56]cabinet.

[02:31:05]China West Africa.

[02:31:45]Honch.

[02:32:24]This year so empty fuel. Thank you, M. uh minister. You may proceed.

[02:32:50]>> Thank you. Thank you very much, honorable chair. Uh so, first of all, questions from honorable Diaz. Um um first of all, illicit financial flows.

[02:32:57]Um u there's two different things here, honorable chair. Number one, there's illicit financial flows and then there's also this cheating VAT is really what it boils down to. This swiping in the shops story. So illicit financial flows we were we were shocked actually a while ago honorable chair when we realized that there were a lot more illicit financial flows than what we realized uh and uh we haven't as the problem that we have in satin sometimes the left hand doesn't speak to the right hand so we were having um STRs coming through FIU ST okay I'm using it to me across STRs are suspicious transaction reports that come from the banks they report into our financial intelligence unit financial intelligence then takes takes them and they say right okay this one is a crime.

[02:33:40]It goes to police. This one is fraud. It goes to ACC. This one is tax evasion.

[02:33:45]Goes to ERS. That ERS element wasn't happening properly. So, we have a we have a new CEO there and it's now it's now working properly and all of a sudden ERS is receiving a huge amount of information about finances going out the country and uh when they looked at the a huge amount of 4 billion, they found that I think one in 10 was paying tax.

[02:34:04]So, it was we we we we finding we got a massive problems around this. as well as the fact that uh these gambling things are also somehow gamblers even the ones that have licenses feel like they shouldn't pay tax for some reason. So but these issues are being sorted out.

[02:34:18]So so so holes around the illicit financial flows are being closed quite well now and you'll see also in the legislation we're adding something small here where reporting to ERS should also take place around certain things. you will see with the tax compliance certificates is helping a huge amount.

[02:34:35]So that these days if if someone is transferring a big amount of money out of the country they must come with a tax clearance to say on this money my taxes are in order I've paid my taxes to transfer this money out the country. So we're closing loopholes on the illicit financial flows from this right hand.

[02:34:51]Now speaking to the left hand stories when it comes to the swiping uh we are making amendments here honorable chair which are going which are allowing us we we've uh ERS has done they've been working on this for years uh but they went to tender they now have someone from uh Serbia who's actually been out who's going to be our service provider on this. They went through a huge recruitment process to find the best in the world for a country like ours for SWAT to be able to close the loopholes on VAT. So these things of not wanting to swipe in the time it won't they cannot swipe they can do it but when that transaction takes place at that shop there's ways to check it from multiple sources to make sure and we'll unpack this nice because it'll be very good for you to understand honorables because we need your support when we're going to roll this thing out. So, so we'd like to really unpack this and we are there's changes and regulations to give them the power to be able to do this and to be able to make sure they can enforce it. But I strongly believe that when we have unpacked that to you and when we going to enforce this, we're going to be able to collect a huge amount of VAT that is currently losing our our our country and it's mainly from the retailers being referred to by Deputy Speaker. Um uh I think a good question also is what's the sensitivity towards mainland China or let's say Beijing because China the word China is used on different fronts. Um uh at at the moment honorable chair honestly as someone has put it here we've got zero problem with mainland China zero problem with Beijing. We recognize the independence who recognize the sovereignity of Republic of China on Taiwan. That does not mean we've got a problem at all with Beijing. The fact that Beijing doesn't want to have a diplomatic ties with Esatini is a choice that they have made not that we have made and they are making that choice because they are saying that they got a one China policy and they claim that Thai that Thail Taiwan is part of them and for that reason anyone recognizing the sovereignty of Taiwan they not giving diplomatic relations to so that's where we stand but from Esatini side they our second biggest trading partner we as was touched on the dam that's being built on it that across Africa you find that mainland China is very active and to build dams they provide the loans and then they build the dam in Sydney it wasn't even the case they didn't even provide the loan the loan came from African development bank that we loaned and just because they were the cheapest contractor and and they had done they had the experience of building these massive dams before they won the contract and we didn't then say oh it's mainland China we're not going to give the contractor's contractor no we fine it's mainland China we allow them to come in they they got the contract by a sender. Now sometimes you find that uh Taiwan is not comfortable with us doing this work with mainland China. That's not our problem between Taiwan and mainland China. They've got massive trade relations. It wouldn't be fair for them to say what dealing you mustn't have trade relations. So from that perspective, we we we we've got trade relations and we and we got we got as good as possible relationship as we can have and like I say, we've got zero problem with mainland China and we work with them as best we can. Uh so just to put clarity on that. Um and again maybe then coming to honorable Mafenny's issue when it comes to mainland China there's definitely no strange or or other import duties on mainland China goods. when it comes to goods coming from mainland China or anywhere in the world, it's normal. If there's an import duty on that product, it applies to every country that we import from. There's no special thing. So, so no, there there's there's no um arrangement when it comes to us selling goods. Yes. Now, there's a difference. Taiwan has given us very preferential trade for us selling our products. So, when we are producing honey and sugar and whatever, there's long list of products. They've given us a zero import duty to Taiwan. So there we've got a very fatal one. Now mainland China is using import into China from us as the indulg to hit us with to say no no no here other African countries have got zero tariffs. Eswatini you are the only one on the continent that's got tariffs because we don't have diplomatic ties with you. So there there's an export tariff issue but there's no import tariff issue for clarity. Uh honorable chair I think you're touching on fuel smuggling but I think you did say we can unpack this very clearly because I think what the committee needs to understand is with what we are doing here with what is happening are we going to make sure we are closing the gaps on what is happening and so I think when ERS does the presentation on this on this fuel one we'll be able to really prove that uh that we are closing the gaps because we have gaps in our system by only charging when it's when the wholesaler sells to the retailer. Hey, there's there's a few gaps in the system where somehow it doesn't happen. And at the moment, we are saying as a country to say our fuel usage is going down and down and down and down every year.

[02:39:38]Honorables, it's just not true. You see the roads, you see the traffic, you see the movement, this it's going up and up and up, not down and down. So, we clearly have a problem here and I think we're going to be shocked when we apply this law to seeum what it should be. And it doesn't only affect our 3M getting 80 cents of tax. It affects MVA levy. It affects our road fund. It affects our uh the strategic oil reserve. There are a few of these things that collect levies.

[02:40:03]It affects all of them. So if we get this right, it's going to have a big impact on all those entities. Thank you, honorable chair.

[02:40:10]Thank you very much, honorable minister.

[02:40:30]Speed point.

[02:40:43]So exuberant.

[02:40:53]Speed point.

[02:41:05]Has been small business.

[02:41:40]Minister, please come here, Minister.

[02:42:13]Yeah, honorable chair, I think. So, I think the only question was really the speed points uh and and at the moment at the moment the the >> I wasn't listening that kept the second question. Sorry, I was I was I was looking something else. So, let me let me then start on the first one is to say that the speed points uh the speed He's 100% right. The speed points especially on smaller transactions it's quite high because I think there's a charge there and there's a percentage and so uh on this one what central bank is working on now is to do the at the moment the transactions taking place in South Africa when you swipe it's going there and it's and it's expensive uh esat the bank is working on that transaction now taking place in Esatini. First of all, we've now they've already done the the quick payments, what they call quick payments, which means if if you are moving money between banks. It's no longer going through South Africa. It's now going between banks in Esatini. So you'll see the moment you pay from one bank to another bank, instantly it's showing straight away. So that's working. It's done. It was tough doing, but it's now through. The next the next one is now they're working on this one where the swiping through Mastercard, Visa card, and things. It's happening in Eswatini, which means that and what they're saying is the charges are going to come down. Now I don't know how much and I don't know what but let's double on a corner when it happens. At the moment the charges is totally out of our control. It doesn't come from us. Um I think your next point was to say money leaving the country is to say that what can we do about what can we do about that? How can we handle that? Uh and you're talking about the contracts that contractors that we issue that we issue Fore 1 million million.

[02:44:21]So, so, so honorables, this one, this one, number one is a bit tricky. So, we need to number one make sure that what business are we looking at? So, at the moment, we've got a citizenship empowerment bill which is uh the the law was passed already. We're now busy with regulations. When the regulations are passed, it should really make sure that there's a category of businesses which must be citizen citizens owned. Now please understand honorable somehow we've got non indigenous imasati walking around with citizenship bing and and and and that's and that's another big problem that we are having because how they got that citizenship is questionable with many of them some have got it 100% legitimately but some of them are gota masati and it's very it's very strange what is going on that so so number so the problem is we can have a good citiz citizenship empowerment bill is not going to help us if somehow people have got IDs and citizens and passports which they have got uh irregularly. So what I'm saying is we unfortunately we can do all we can on this front but unless you close this door here we're wasting our time. Uh but but but secondly now when it comes to making sure investments are being done what this is where a citizen empowerment bill is going to be effective is because let us just say it's a company coming into the country they're producing goods for export and the country and and and it's helping for jobs you know what anybody must come in you can take your profits where you want to but when goods are being sold in Esatini that's where it is our money we've got control over and there we must be strict is to say if it's goods that are being sold in Eswatini to Emasati. Now that money must we need to do everything we can to keep that money in country and ensure that it's our people doing that work. But we must be careful that that does not prevent someone from coming into the country to set up a factory who's exporting and we're now somehow making it tough for him because those are the ones you want to make sure it's open and free because we we the market is langly all he's doing is using a masati to do the work. You know it's tricky but we need to we need to I think the empowerment bill coming through or the regulations should clear this up but we need to check the citizens beside. Thank you Mr. Chair.

[02:46:40]>> Thank you very much foreign minister we have come to the end of our business for the day.

[02:46:49]9.

[02:46:51]Uh, we're hoping would see uh 9:00. No number 10. 9:00.

[02:46:57]We're hoping from here they're going straight to a hotel Hilton where they're booked and then tomorrow morning.

[02:47:11]Um, let's agend the commission.