Why the RSS does not want to register| Rise of Hindutva Pop | South Central 80

[00:00:06]This is a podcast by the newsm and you are listening to South Central.

[00:00:12]>> Hello and welcome to South Central a TNM podcast where we put the south at the center. I'm Da Rajendran your host and joining me in the studio is not my regular co-host Puja Prasana but it is our Karnataka bureau chief Anisha Shet.

[00:00:25]Anisha welcome to the show.

[00:00:26]>> Hello. Okay. So, Puja is in Hyderabad.

[00:00:29]In fact, I too was in Hyderabad. My interview with Kavita is out. Puja is doing more interviews. We're doing stories on data centers on SIR XIS which has just commenced in Telangana. So, do watch out for all these stories. And uh before we go to the headlines, a reminder as always, South Central drops every Friday. This is a podcast where we discuss headlines from South India and we deep delve into two topics. Every week we have guests, mostly journalists.

[00:00:58]We never invite politicians. Should we?

[00:01:00]You tell us. Write to us at south [email protected].

[00:01:04]And don't forget we are a media house that does not take money from corporates or politicians or political parties. We leave it to you to take subscriptions and allow us to run this organization.

[00:01:15]So take a subscription or contribute to South Central. Anisha the headlines.

[00:01:21]>> Okay, let's get on with it. Um we'll start with Tamil Nadu environment clearance for brigger housing project in Palarana revoked. So the state environment this is a mouthful. The state environment impact assessment authority has revoked the environmental clearance granted to brigade enterprises for its proposed residential project in the palaranai marshland. The palikaranai marshland is a ramsar wetland site by the way. Uh so the cancellation comes after the authority found that the company started construction without obtaining mandatory approvals from the wetland authority. No actually the authority didn't fine this whole thing was exposed uh by the NGO uh which is Araurkum during the DMK's time and there was a lot of demand that this project has to be cancelled. There were accusations that somebody in the government clearly took bribes for this project to happen. So after the Vijay government came into power they have canled it. Moving on, aging population could push Tamil Nadu deeper into debt trap. TV PVK government's white paper.

[00:02:24]So the Tamil Nadu government's white paper on state's finances has flagged a rapidly aging population as a major threat to fiscal stability. It has warned that rising health care and social security demands along with a shrinking taxpaying population uh sorry taxpaying workforce could aggravate an already worsening debt situation.

[00:02:46]No, I think we must have a South Central on these white papers and how they are political weapons really because a white paper of the TV after a few years or of the Congress in Kerala after a few years is not going to look any different because the measures are continuing right and I think all these white papers again are absolute numbers they're not showing you when debt is increasing how is development going on it's a very political uh weapon really I think we must have a proper discuss discussion about it later.

[00:03:17]>> That actually sounds like a good idea because we really should know how they're arriving at these calculations and you know whether they're flattening out any complexities.

[00:03:27]Okay, next we go on to Kerala. Kerala toddler death. High Court questions inaction on grandmother's complaint. The Kerala High Court has questioned why authorities failed to act on a complaint made by Arshett's grandmother before he died. Ashit was only 20 months old when he died and he is alleged to have uh and he allegedly died due to prolonged abuse at the hands of his mother's partner in Travandram. So um for those who have been following the news Arshit was assaulted very badly uh by his stepfather or his mother's partner and he died on May 29th. So my colleagues Harita John and Azifa Fatima a few days after all the coverage died down they decide to go back to the story that is when they found that the grandmother on May 3rd which is 26 days before the child died had called a child protection unit and in a 17-minute conversation she actually told them that look my grandson's hands are fractured how can a child's hands get fractured when he falls down from a tricycle plus she was a nurba volunteer which is someone who trained to understand trauma and injuries. So she says all this to the child protection officer who does not take her seriously at all. So we got the conversation, we played it out, we gave it to all the malam channels to ensure that there is wider coverage. And after that the government has stepped in. The government has of course sacked that guy which I don't think should have been the impact of that story because one person moving out of system is never the solution. What we realize is that when you call a government helpline, they are not even logging in the calls. So do watch that video. Puja had done a let me explain last week. Azifa and Harita wrote a story and we have even put out that audio. It's it's quite distressing but it also shows us how our systems just don't function. Um next we have Ed questions Vina Pinari Vision's daughter for around 8 hours in CMRL payoff case.

[00:05:24]This was Vina's first appearance before the enforcement directorate. Uh the the ED is said to have asked her about payments amounting to over 2 cr made by CMRL to her company Exlogic which is now defunct. Uh the ED also raised questions on the loans uh given to Exlogic by Empower India Capital Investments Private Limited. This was a loan of about 50 lakh. Uh and Empower India Capital Investments is a company operated by CMRL managing director SN Salidaran Karta and the loans were given despite Vina's company failing to make timely repayments. Moving on to Karnataka, a pillar behind P Lankh's legacy, writer Indra Lancesh dies at 82.

[00:06:09]Uh Indra Lancesh was the wife of P Lankh who is a Canada journalist and writer.

[00:06:15]Uh she's also the mother of Gowi Lanckesh, Kavita Lanckesh and Indrajit Lancesh. Uh Gori of course we know was a journalist herself and she took over her father's newspaper after he after his death and she was killed by allegedly by Hindu goons uh in 2017 and uh the family now includes only Kavita Lancesh who is also a filmmaker and Indrajit Lank who also uh is a journalist and filmmaker.

[00:06:45]Next um close to two lakh trees likely to be felt for Bidi AI township. Over 10,000 farmers in Bengaluru south district which is formerly called as Ram Nagra stand to lose their land to uh the Birhi township which is proposed to be set up. Uh it has been described as India's as India's first AI powered city and last week the state government issued a final notification to acquire the land. If nine villages in Bidi are acquired for this uh project, nearly two lakh trees will have to be cut to facilitate the development. So this is DK Shivar's pet project Nagra eases constituency and there are major protests happening there.

[00:07:25]>> Yes.

[00:07:26]>> Um next we go to Telangana. Telangana government will inaugurate road named after Donald Trump in Hyderabad. Um wow I'm stumped. Okay.

[00:07:37]>> No. So Telangana government is going to name a road after Donald Trump. I think the chief minister himself is going to inaugurate. The basic uh thought is that oh we will please Trump and then Trump will uh be nice to us.

[00:07:51]>> So they have imaginatively come up with the name Donald Trump Avenue.

[00:07:54]>> Yeah there's one that's a road in front of the consulate the US consulate.

[00:07:58]There's one road which is going to be named after Google and another one in uh after Ratant Tata. But that's not the same. I I mean the Congress is a party which has taken a very striden stand in support of Palestine uh you know and has been saying that Donald Trump debatable is India. No Priyanka Gandhi has been very very categorical >> government in Karat has never allowed a protest.

[00:08:20]>> That is true. I'm saying the central leadership has um and on top of that we have been saying that they have been saying that oh Trump is India's enemy and uh he's doing all this to India and now their government is naming something as Donald Trump Avenue. I wonder if they'll reach change the name after another president comes.

[00:08:39]>> Uh next we go to Andhra Pradesh. Pawan Kalyan secures gag order from a Bengaluru court on land encroachment allegations. So the allegations were made by YSR Congress party mouthpiece Sakshi media and Telangana Rakana Sea uh President Kavita earlier this month over a parcel of land in Hyderabad claiming that it falls within a lakes's full tank level area. Now what we must note is that Pawan Kalyan has been accused of possessing land in Hyderabad but he has come all the way to Bengaluru to get the gag order because this is the land of gag orders. Anybody can come and get gag orders here. Please come. Our magistrates are waiting in line to give gag orders. Um row over remarks against home minister. Uh Pala demands apology from Amarat. Telugu asam party has strongly condemned the remarks made by YSR Congress party leader and former minister uh Guriada Amarat on home minister Wgenalapuri Anita the party called them as deeply offensive misogynistic and unbecoming of democratic discourse. I mean some men just can't see beyond the makeup. He said that Van Anita the home minister is full of makeup. She spends hours doing makeup and some sort of crap like that.

[00:09:53]These are the men who don't deserve to be in public life but alas they are.

[00:09:56]Thank you for the headlines Anisha. So what's been making the headlines this week is Karnataka Home Minister Priyankhari insisting that the Rashtria Swam Seak or the RSS should declare what its registration is and they should tell how their funds are being managed. The RSS has hit back. Moan Bhagwat has said that even Hindu what is it? Hinduism is not registered. So why should the RSS be registered? is one of the replies.

[00:10:24]Everybody has jumped in from Mahesh Malani to the VHP to RSS ID or Guru Morti all of them defending the RSS need not register. Now there's of course the political uh point of it as to why is Priyankar uh going after the RSS like this and the second question is the RSS reply itself and why they've never wanted to register as an organization uh ever since their inception. So to discuss all this we have with us Shardul joining us from the newsre studio. Shardul welcome to the news minutes south central first time here.

[00:11:00]>> Yes first of many I hope but yes >> and joining I mean making reappearance after reappearance is Nikita Sakena journalist who's worked with multiple organizations. Nikita welcome to South Central.

[00:11:13]>> Thank you. Okay. So, uh first about the politics, right? Priyank's um I think what Priyank is trying to do or at least what I've learned is that he will send more letters to the RSS if they do not reply to the letters and say that they have they don't they have a registration number which they clearly don't have.

[00:11:34]He's going to push for no marches. They cannot do public marches anymore. The VHP can do the uh what is it? all the other branches can do but not the RSS because they are not registered is what he is going to uh insist on is what I think the RSS of course can approach the court. Okay. So uh first thoughts Shardul you must have been seeing all the reactions right uh from Moan Bhagwat to the VHP everyone else. I did I did and like believe it or not this is not a new discussion at least for my years but it was always in a different tone than in this life and by especially by a political actor like Priyank who is not without a name let's just say that but besides who's making noise I personally am always interested in things when people give arguments for not following following the norm so to speak like an organization generally registers and RSS hasn't and their argument that their body of individuals and think in my head when I read that was body of individuals are like RWA like uncle G's is that what we're talking about because RSS is big and for those who don't have context I I I grew up in RSS so I am very familiar with everything that goes on every day.

[00:13:02]It is a functional and organization with hierarchy which says and as far as I understand has its finances completely transparent for auditing as they say. So I don't see a reason for not registering but I was wondering if they went to register what would they register as as an NGO and the comparison you say of Hinduism which is again a misnomer there is no such thing that's not comparison because that's personal belief system RSS is not personal belief system of any kind RSS is a specific voluntary organization which claims to work for cultural reasons of Hindus and Hindu benefit and blah blah blah all that but I don't see a reason for not registering and another argument that it hasn't been registered till now so why now that doesn't make sense what was true yesterday may not be true tomorrow so many things have changed especially they make the argument which I also read in the piece you guys wrote right and couple of other pieces But that we were registered uh we started our operations in 1925 before independence and governments have dealt with us. So why registered now? But that doesn't make sense. It has nothing to do with what's happening today. So many things have changed and with time they should also change. I mean they have first name basis access to the heads of the state in this country and of course our prime minister is a excharak. He he he lived his life for decades as a pcharak. So their links are open, transparent and invariable. So even as an ex-member and if I put myself in shoes of 25 years ago me, I don't see a reason for not registering as far as I understand. Mikita, I think there's been a lot discussed about the reasons why the RS is not registering. Right. I think one of them is primarily that the funds that the RSS uses the RSS doesn't want to be traced back in any way which is the reason why it operates through a lot of other trust foundations and organizations. uh in fact uh seeing the sun the database which is put out uh uh by organizations outside India which also caravan has reproduced here caravan has fact checked and reproduced shows that there's a network of around 2,500 to 3,000 organizations which are connected to the sun so there's a reason why they've not registered and this is a this is a question which has been dealt with by courts by governments but the RS is continuing to say we will not register a strange >> yeah So I think a couple of things here are interesting. So one like you mentioned seeing the song might be the first time we're actually going to we have gotten a quantifiable sense of how far this network runs and in fact if I'm not wrong I saw an update that they're going to be adding 100 more organizations or some such to this network now and there's a very interesting point that Felix Padel one of the researchers associated with the project makes in an accompanying piece that they wrote for the caravan which is that when you think of this organization and I'm paraphrasing here, but when you think of this organization as vast, not only do you of course miss the connections that might otherwise be visible, but you also tend to think of them as being larger than they are. So that's just on the hydraheaded nature of how the SA operates and how it works both ways which is that a it means we miss some connections that we might otherwise see um in how political cultural systems are operating but we also might run into the dangers of exaggerating their influences or giving into the myth of them being present everywhere if we are not to quantify how big this network is. The second thing is you know um this is also a caravan story and one that I know you've mentioned previously I think on a South Central podcast that I was also on which is uh Amita Singh's cover story I think uh last July if I'm not wrong which looked at quesong that is the headquarters of the RSS indeal right and there's a lot of interesting material in there of course about the headquarters itself and the vast amount of money I think the RSS by its phone estimate says 150 crores.

[00:17:39]Um there's also very interesting nuggets of information in there for instance about the foreign donations that Savah Bharti and one more organization which are RSS affiliates get from for instance a Maryland based organization called the India disaster relief fund or some such. Now this is and as the cover story highlights coming at a time when you are seeing a lot of civil society organizations in India struggling to retain their FC licenses. We've seen scores of organizations that have had their FC licenses canled particularly those that are seen to be dissident. So there is this conspiratorial nature with which the RSS works and it does come back to the same question of why is there such resistance to opening yourself up for legal and public scrutiny. Um and the other thing that I think Bhagwat has said this time which was interesting to me is he's using the fact that the organization has been banned thrice. uh once after Gandhi's assassination, once after during the emergency and once after the demolition of the Babri Masjid to say that if we were banned, of course the government knows that we exist. But the question here is not whether we know that or the government knows that you exist. The question is how much of your scale and how much of your operations are shrouded in opacity. Um so I think that sort of evasion is also very interesting and I don't know if this is an argument that they have used before because the body of individuals argument is something they they turn to much like this idea of guru dakina all our contributions are voluntary uh and so on and so forth. No, I think they have.

[00:19:32]>> No, so I think they started with this line for this. I mean they moan Bhagat is mostly repeating what he said previously last November when again it was again Priyank's another another letter written by Priyank to Karnataka's chief minister then which sparked that response. So this body of individuals saying I mean to the best of my knowledge at least it's recent and they're all referring to what they have said in uh income tax proceedings in the 1970s which lasted up till the 1990s.

[00:20:03]>> Yeah. Uh Shadu you wanted to make a point.

[00:20:05]>> I wanted to just just couple of points.

[00:20:08]One correction their headquarters is not Jand Walan. Jandde Walan was Delhi headquarters. RSS RSS RSS RSS headquarters are in Rashmi Nagpur. The second is their audits do happen. So Gurudakana does happen. It's a whole month where they organize and it is voluntary like nobody asked. I was like I started so many new shakas in new districts. We never asked and instructed not to ask okay who's giving what but what their claim is that we do financial audits but they are not ready to make it transparent which is why the registration is required.

[00:20:46]Am am I making sense? like they treat it at individual sort of private firm they're not for public but what k is demanding is when you operate in public life and all that as far as I understand if I'm wrong please correct me that you have to register so that we can monitor what you're doing you are a organization of no substantial I mean like not unsubstantiable means you have immense contributions coming in be it individuals or trusts like you mentioned that database mentions and you operate in public life with now almost almost part of the government right that's the core argument so yeah >> no I think Priyang Kar's first argument is a the fund I think is the secondary issue with for him for him the first issue is that if you are not a registered organization how are you having public events especially public marches at this scale what gives you the right to march he's saying let the BHP march let SARI march why should the RSS hold marches because you're not registered But I am wondering if the RSS has to register, what will it register as? You can be a society, you can be a foundation, you can be a trust, public, yeah, you can be a private limited company, an LLP, what will you register as? Private, militia, paramilitary organization. What will you register as?

[00:22:03]Because if you're a society or a trust or a foundation, you must make clear what are the goals, intents, etc. Right?

[00:22:09]And then you can't go beyond that. So can you say uh weapons training, arms training, uh latis or distribution of lattes or public marches is my intent. I think there is also a problem of what will your society charter say which the RSS has to deal with. Right. So Priyank I think the main focus is the marches Shahul. It is not the funds are secondary as far as I understand. Um and the RSS push back has been continuously the same. In fact, it is only now that Moan Bag has sort of changed the line saying that Hinduism is not even not registered. Why should uh I register?

[00:22:44]which I thought was a ridiculous argument like uh I think Pawan Kera the Congress leader was right saying that tomorrow okay I am a Hindu can I say I will not register the news minute uh because Hinduism is not registered why should I register the news minute IT department cannot come here because I'm a Hindu why should I register right I don't understand how that argument works um yeah you want to add something >> yeah I mean like so the interesting part is like if you go through the things that the RSS has said you know when income tax proceedings and the charity commissioner of Maharashtra uh saw responses. They claim two different things in two in front of two different people and all at the same time in the same decade in the same cases. So in front of the Bombay High Court the RSS once claimed that it is a charitable institution and then in front of the charity commissioner it claims that it is not a charitable trust but it's a political institution. So it's saying one thing to one authority to escape you know uh any kind of accountability either under the Bombay trusts public trusts act or under the income tax act when the income tax department had initiated proceedings based on uh you know whatever things were going on at that point of time. So each time somebody asks them a question depending on who it is they use whatever law there is you know to make a case in their favor but finally it's like you know round robin right you tell one person one thing another person another thing and finally you're not saying anything at all so then what is the RSS is it is it a social organization cultural organization political organization >> but I think the the excuse that is most used for the RSS not to be under any scrutiny is that they do very good work.

[00:24:26]All these interviews, all these uh justification put out, people are saying that oh they have helped flood victims from for decades. They have done sava, they have done uh all kinds of uh you know in the education sector. They're helping tribal populations. Therefore, you must not ask questions is one line which even Moan Bhagwat has taken. Now your thoughts Nikita?

[00:24:49]>> Yeah. So I think this uh comes to the core of why it's important for this organization to face public accountability or scrutiny. Right? So for instance to even quickly come back to the funding question, what does voluntarily donation mean in a time like today when the RSS is clearly the most important political force shaping the country's worldview today. It is the ideological fountain head of the ruling party. We have had folks from the RSS being diffused in all kinds of uh powerful positions um in the country today. So when you when we are saying voluntary and what does it mean for this organization to not be registered? So how do these funds get scrutinized? Um there's another interesting point from that story that I just quickly want to flag before coming back to your question. For instance, Amitita's story mentions I think a 2019 or more recent maybe 2024 petition by this gentleman called Lalen Kishor Singh who points out that Bhagwat and the RSS's headquarters in Nagpur for instance are afforded Z plus security of about 150 personnel if I remember correctly is what that legal document says and he estimates the cost for this to be about 125 cr. Now previously in the case of Z plus security for MKkesh Amani he's been directed by the court to pay for it himself and the question that this uh you know petitioner raises is is the government paying for this? Is the RSS paying for this? If the government is paying for this this is public money going into their security why is it going to an entity that we don't even know I mean as far as their legal status is concerned doesn't even exist and if they are paying for it themselves then we don't know where the funds are coming from. So to also return to this question of SA right um multiple reports and I think we're going to see reports from the TNM that are also flagging this have shown us that historically uh especially since this I think over the ' 70s when the RSS was also trying to do a rebrand so to speak um and was trying to reach out to communities that it recognized it was not able to uh bring into its core SA has been a way for it to expand its influence for the ultimate cause also of a Hindu raashtra right so for instance um Arnab Gowami's video where he's talking about I mean a lot of the claims that he's making in that video I think need to be fact checked and scrutinized but for instance he talks about COVID relief work right and um there's an interesting series of three pieces that the caravan staff writers Sager has done uh around that time I think these are from July 20 or 2021 where he is looking at how there were about 736 NOS's that are affiliated with the RSS that were listed you know in the cent's list um for civil society organizations that are doing relief work out to a list of about 94,000 plus organizations. Now this means that these NOS's are eligible for state disaster refunds as well or they were for instance I think eligible for free food grant by the food commission of India. So they're using government resources and so when Bhagwat says that we also don't need to come under the scrutiny because um we're not using uh anything the government is giving us it doesn't actually stand true to for their business affiliates and because this network is so opaque. So there are two question one is what is this SA ultimately in service for? Um and I think uh Saga's thesis for instance mentioned this very interesting book by Malini Bhutaji which is called disaster relief and the RSS if I'm not wrong which also looks in at two specific instances over the '9s and late 2000s to understand how even disaster relief work is ultimately meant to help not only build the impression of the RSS as this humane and compassionate organization but also in Carter building. Um so we can't see the SA as being isolated from the goals that the organization is trying to fulfill. Um and the second day is when you're doing SA through these affiliates, the question of funds does arise again because these are many of these affiliates are registered. So they are able to get get access to funds. We don't exactly know how they're being used or moving across the network.

[00:29:29]Shardul about this whole point of SA that RSS does a lot of work and the video that Nikita is referring to of all Gowami I think he was responding to this KG's question and said I equivocally support the RSS uh I I will be the only network which says this etc etc. Yes.

[00:29:46]>> Well what what Arnab Gowami says makes no difference to me. I I stopped watching TV when Sasby Kabi Bahuti started airing. So I have been away from TV for a long time but I have seen the good work and the good work argument is this the good work does not mitigate the bad you do it it it it's a non you know non-starter argument at least in in a legal sense to my mind just because you provided aid let's say after a train or like Nikita mentioned Lur maybe she was mentioning Latur or Bhuj um earthquakes which were sort of couple of things where it was more noted I think because they were covered more due to modi at least bjan but the point remains that even if you provide support and I agree with the point nikita made that you're not actually doing voluntary work but that's true for everyone right like nobody does these things for out of the goodness of their heart like it is unavoidable that people h will have self-interest in public life be it politics or in social service. Nobody is a saint here and that's not the expectation. The expectation is transparency.

[00:31:01]So the work you do does not mitigate one what your interference and increasingly more active support and aid to BJP in politics which they did in many elections. Now they admitted they did before 2014 they did not. They used to say our workers take part but we as an organization don't. In 2014 post 2014 results they admitted that yes we as an organization worked to save the country or whatever job up I'm sorry about the Hindi but whatever the explanation you put out in the public.

[00:31:37]The other is that don't ask questions is a ridiculous statement in itself but sort of compounded for an organization which claims to represent Hindu belief system and faith. The one thing which you can sort of assign and easily say that this belief system whatever and everything it encompasses says that if you are not satisfied with an explanation ask questions.

[00:32:05]So that is again counterintuitive to my head and in the more you have sort of stake and equity in public life which includes policy and governance like BJP ministers, home minister and departmental ministers have open meetings they attend strategy meetings of RSS also right pratinidi sabha we had discussed in different context pratinidi sabhas happen annually and BJP members ers and representatives are attending them. Furthermore, the pcharaks which are deputed to all these organizations the sort of key links or junctions junctions which sort of manages this whole plethora the web of organizations is general secretaries which are originally pcharak deputized to VHP. Bajangal is a sort of you know ancillary organization of VHP it's not directly linked to RSS but like Dharm Jagran like you mentioned Akal Vidyal which has worked with tribals and so many others it is the general secretaries which are pcharaks and they are deputized and brought back to RSS one of the biggest examples is if you remember the general secretary of BJP national one was Ramlal when Modi was elected in 2014 he's now back in RSS core committee He's not in BJP anymore.

[00:33:27]So these Pcharaks do manage everything.

[00:33:29]They are the sort of links which maintain the harmony because there are internal rifts also but the overall projection the aim goal remains the same and that is the core point. They have to register because now you have provable provable evidence that shows that you are taking part in governance. you are taking part in deciding policy for people who are not part of your organization or part of the ecosystem anyway. So we need those numbers, we need those details because you are working in public life, you need to be transparent.

[00:34:04]>> This idea of uh it the idea of them saying that you can't ask questions as being uh contradictory to what they say they stand for. I feel like I differ slightly there because it seem I mean it seems quite clear that one of the core ideas uh that they are aspiring towards is also uh maintaining the cast order right maintaining a hierarchical brahminical cast order. um their hierarchy seems to reflect this.

[00:34:36]Their the world view that they are shaping seems to reflect this and in that order it seems quite natural then to say that questions are not welcome, descent is not welcome or descent is welcome only in as far as it helps us in maintaining this order.

[00:34:52]>> No, I think I think the irony or the facade is that whenever you ask the RSS about the registration, they they continuously point to other things that they do, right? like whether it is social service, whether it is working with marginalized communities etc. and all the organizations working in these areas are dealing with the from the RSS in one way or the other and there are funds flowing to those organizations. So the RSS is a fountain head that really enjoys the goodwill of whatever the other people do but is itself not registered and what Nikita was talking about is a story that we intend to publish next week. So I hope all of you will subscribe and read it. It's an investigation where we look at some of the money from the government coming into RSS linked organization. We talking about course of money coming in but the RSS will say we are not registered. And I was also thinking that it's not just the RSS. The RSS at least calls itself a body of individuals. The Bajangal is not registered at all and the Bajangal is everywhere. Uh you can see the Bajangal uh organizing events. Bajrangal is holding protests. that's also not registered and even the Bajangal's money comes through VHP right whatever money VHP there's a lot of money and we are talking about lots of money coming from abroad we are there are reports saying that millions of dollars are coming into RSS linked organizations but and at the same time you are also not allowing other NOS's in this country to function so the rule really does not apply to you but to everybody else and they are not seeming to get this irony, right?

[00:36:28]>> Yeah. And like saying that we do good work is like say and so so we should not be questioned or registered is like saying okay you know what I drive really well so I don't need to apply for a driver's driver's license. I mean it makes no sense right. So that is one part of it but there is also the thing that like as you were saying right like they're claiming credit for work done by others right now if you look at like putting together everything that we know together I mean today like about the RSS's organizational network and you know that mapping project which uh the caravan published it's like there's this huge body of organizations that are carrying out the RSS program but how are they managing to do that has anyone ever gone to a Hindu I mean or or let's say for example a recent event which in fact I think Mr. K also has spoken about uh in March there was a huge event of vice chancellors and it was an education conclave organized by the RSS all its material says that this is our event and so on and then it was being held at a state-run university. So, so the uh some congress leaders raised objections, demanded answers as to how you know a government university was hosting a RSS conference.

[00:37:44]So then I spoke to some of the organizers at the time and they said no, we've paid for it. So this is a commercial transaction. Where do they get the money for that from? Right? That is also a question that needs to be asked like how are you managing to fund all your activities because you're claiming credit for them. Right? So if you're claiming credit for it then you should also be accountable to the public for that for your activities right so I think that there is there's lots of questions here that need to be answered and the RSS is saying no rules apply to us >> sorry one of the other things is that for instance the affiliates that you were mentioning da it's not like or what uh Anisha was also talking about while these organizations are delin and um it'd be interesting to hear from Shardul on this as well. Maybe it's not like it's impossible to link the folks in positions of power and that is how you see the linkages very clearly. I mean in instance after instance including in some of the pieces that reporters from TNM are now you know investigating we see that these link I mean you scratch the surface and the links are actually quite clear. uh if you start looking at the overlapping individuals. The second is that um and this is not a new point but perhaps worth bringing in which is that this lack of transparency also means that we don't know who is an RSS member because there are no records and this is something I think Amita also mentions and delves into into her cover story. when you don't have an organization for example that comes under the society's registration act you don't have membership records so for instance where we see this more clearly is the most clearly is the RSS's denial of Natang say the assass the assassin of uh Muandas Gandhi as being someone who was an RSS member whereas the journalist Direndra Kha's work um and the sort of archive we dug up show that he was in fact a member um up up until the very last. Right. So this opacity also means that we don't we it goes down to the very granular level of not knowing which individual is a member of the RSS.

[00:40:01]>> May I explain a bit briefly? So this is by design plausible deniability like imagine it like this. You are not registered. Everybody just congregates every day like a group of friends. Let's say somebody messes up big time which cannot be solved by connections or by something then you have plausible deniability like we play with this guy but we don't we are not responsible for his individual actions. Does that make sense? That's by design. That's that's how I do that's how they do it.

[00:40:27]>> Yeah. It's a it's not a bug it's a feature.

[00:40:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it happened in other cases also but I do differ with DK JA and Natur. But our news work which I'll recommend in the end does specify that. But that's for recommendation. So >> no I I think there are more serious things uh you know than just than just the fund. I mean these are all serious individual opaces uh you know all that but lately we have also report seen reports about how the RSS is doing lobbying abroad though the RSS has denied it. There is enough paper trail to now show that they have been lobbying in the US. We've also heard about how the RSS interfered even in the Flipkart Walmart deal and so many things where in governance they've played a very clear role right I also you know I can understand an RSS a few years ago like till the 1970s they were not even an entity uh which mattered I mean after Gandhi's assassination and the ban everything for many years they were not they did not matter till the emergency and the new government formation everything but now I mean at that time I can even imagine the RSS out to fear not wanting to register you know being in trouble but in today's India do they have to be really worried about registering themselves and being caught unless there is some new government that is going to come and be brave enough to put RSS people behind J >> no I mean like I think okay this is just like me thinking off the top of my head but yeah in a way yes because today so much information can be simply leaked okay a couple of days ago in defense of all the rockers that Priyankar created Gurum Morti tweeted about the RSS constitution right now by last night early this morning copies of an undated RSS constitution are floating around on social media and uh so yeah there is if the RSS is resisting registration and transparency and accountability so fiercely it only means it has that much to lose and hide >> I was just saying that we tend to see it being recast again and again as a benign organization today and that's what uh you know a film about the RSS is trying to do that's what Arnab is trying to do when he delivers that solucree on you know while he as a network believes in the RSS and that was also interesting phrasing because he kept calling himself I think he kept saying my network but anyway um the thing is that you you are again and again recasting the the narrative now is to recast the organization as a benign organization and we it's necessary to remember that this is not a benign organization for instance this is an organization uh that raises in its very origins a lot of violence and where the ideology is even when you're talking about SA for instance the SA is not non-discriminatory so I think it's also important to remember that while it may seem like they don't have that much to worry about we're still talking about an organization that time and time again has done things that will should rightfully bring it under a lot of scrutiny and possibly even at some point action who knows sorry >> so what I was saying was so nikita I had said sorry for interruption so don't worry about that but what I was trying to tell you that like registration may create a logistical problem for them a big one I'll tell you why they have parak right what what is a pcharak pcharak is a man who has left his home or his family and everything and works exclusively and solely for RSS. They live in RSS offices and they are from the bottom unit Nagar which is in a city right a local couple of colonies to the national level which is moan Bhagwat right or these are all pcharaks they do not get any salaries but they get expenses right the money they spend let's say on fuel and everything they have to expense it back to be so that expenses can be managed if you register an organization Now you have to sort of give this hierarchy also which till now is only internal hierarchy based on their organization.

[00:44:47]I'll give you the terms like nagar jilla district is a unit for city and rural area. So zila or mahanagar these are tiers of pcharak depending on their responsibility. But if you create an official structure, you will have to show that these people work solely for this organization and no other.

[00:45:14]Right? You will come under perview of law. I imagine any organization which hires people permanently for lifetime.

[00:45:22]Right? They will never go back home.

[00:45:23]They will never have families. They are transferred. There is an organized system for how they work, where to assign them, right? Young ones, older ones, different states. So that people don't get too attached to people where they work. So two or three years barring exceptions when you register I would imagine you need to give official hierarchy to this network of people which you transfer in and out of the organization and in and out of the different jurisdictions of the law and how do you expense that how are they expensing it so these things come in come into question and I would say that's why they resist. The other reason is it took them 16 years to decide from knickers to pants with with internal discussion. 16 years. I was in RSS when the knickers was debate started. I had gotten divorced after leaving the organization long ago. The pants weren't decided. So it they take a very long time to decide minor things. So I would imagine there is a lot of resistance inside and they don't like to do it you know. uh through top dictad internally that's a thing >> and they wouldn't definitely like to do it because somebody's demanding them to right somebody from another party >> especially now when they have power >> yeah exactly >> that also brings ego >> okay so thank you very much Shardul and Nikita but this is not going to end here I think what is starting from Karnataka is something which the Congress want to em wants to emulate at least in Kerala Telangana for now. So everybody's going to start insisting on registration also because they are seeing that even there the vice chancellor thing that you said that is happening in Kerala also where we saw three major vice chancellors attending the an RSS event. So this discussion is not going to end. Watch out for our story next week. Thank you for joining Nikita and Shardul.

[00:47:25]>> Thank you for having us.

[00:47:26]>> Thanks for inviting me for the first time.

[00:47:29]Can a song incite violence? Can lyrics cause murder? That's something what Kunal Purohit journalist and author has been researching for many years now. Uh Kunal uh has written a book on Hindutwa pop and today he joins us. The book is called Hop the secretive world of hindutwa pop stars. Kunal, thank you for joining us here at South Central.

[00:47:51]>> Thank you Da. What a pleasure to be with you guys.

[00:47:54]>> So I was checking out your Twitter thread yesterday. So for those unaware Hindutwa pop is basically this I don't know it's a genre of pop now we can say where the Hindu right-wing hindutwa right-wing uh carders will go outside mosques and other places especially during festivals when there are processions and they will just play these really hatefilled songs. Now uh Kunal has been researching on how that's also taken off spectacularly on the internet with all these songs doing very well on platforms and in his book he actually recounts in songs from various states of India I think uh Karnataka and Telangana if I'm not mistaken also feature songs from these places. So Kunal, yesterday you wrote an entire thread about how a lot of these uh platforms are allowing this hatefilled content uh to be accessed by people and also to be monetized, right? Take us through that.

[00:48:51]>> So essentially, DA, you're right. Uh you know, over the last few years, we've seen this this this genre of music emerge uh and and first it emerged from rural areas and and semi-ural areas, and now it's it's firmly in our cities. It's in the big towns and and metros of the country. Uh I live in Mumbai and and outside the airport last year I found that hop songs were were were blaring and being played in rallies. So it's it's it's now no longer a subculture or or a genre which is only found in distant uh rural India. It's it's it's firmly a part of of the country's sort of soundtrack in some ways. What we've done essentially with this study that I did for the center of study for organized hate which is a Washington based think tank was to try and essentially have a a comprehensive first ever compilation of all hop songs that exist on the internet and and link it to what big tech is doing to this country and and to our social fabric. Right? So what we essentially did was big four big platforms YouTube, Meta, Spotify and and Apple Music. We we essentially just looked at their own hate speech policies and the norms that govern what goes on those platforms and against those norms we we found that there were 523 total Hindutwa pop songs which were which were going against these very norms and violating these norms by inciting and calling for violence against Muslims and Christians and by also you know sort of stoking hate against them by dehumanizing them and abusing them. So that's 523 songs across these four platforms and and you know we we sort of also looked at multiple things. We looked at how how popular these songs were. So give you an instance on YouTube alone we we found that these songs were heard more than I mean nearly 200 million times. So more than 198 million times essentially. Um on Instagram we saw that there were more than 6 million reels that were created using these songs. And each reel will then have its own sort of you know amplified impact and be seen by a number of people but 6 million reels alone. Uh the the other part of the study really focuses on on how big tech platforms are not are not just giving these songs and artists a platform but they're also profiting from this music da as well as giving money back to these creators. So what we could establish was how uh a lot of these creators their accounts were monetized.

[00:51:18]So they were getting advertising revenue from from YouTube. Uh they were getting royalties from uh from Apple and Spotify. Uh and they were also able to raise money directly from their viewers through you know through features like super chat or super thanks that YouTube has for some creators. So we we were able to establish how this is an ecosystem where both platforms big tech platforms as well as hate pop creators are actually benefiting mutually and hate and then platforms are just very willing to let them you know sort of let them flourish on these platforms without any regard for what they're doing in in society. done. Yeah.

[00:51:55]>> So, I was looking at the research. It said that ads for 13 103 brands ran, right? And I think your graphic said that OpenAI, Notebook LLM, Notebook LM, Amazon Prime, Dell, Motorola, all these people are putting out ads on these songs and it's not like they're unaware of what this is about. A >> and and the Reserve Bank of India disturbingly. So what we found was essentially you know in this ecosystem we there is there is not much clarity that these platforms offer as to how the the monetization model really works. But what we found were that you know these songs which firstly shouldn't have been on the platform to begin with uh you know there calling for violence against minorities and stoking hate while all of these brands are very willingly sort of on you know on these channels advertising themselves. So when you're going to see a song which calls for the extermination of of Muslims from this country, you're very likely to see an ad by some of these brands that we just mentioned and that itself is problematic. Now, as I said, right, I would be very happy if if if YouTube or if these brands come out with a clarification and say we didn't know what was going on those songs. Uh I think that would be wonderful. But at this point, we don't have that clarity of whether they willingly signed off on on being advertised with hpop music.

[00:53:16]Have you heard these songs on Nisha?

[00:53:18]>> No. Um >> after reading the book, I went and checked a few of them on YouTube. I think this was more than a year ago.

[00:53:25]They were some of them were quite scary.

[00:53:27]>> Yeah, I follow crazy like Twitter handles of all these guys. So I'm a little overdose turn like all the rubbish that people keep doing in Karnataka. But I mean so what I see I'm wondering like see >> Anisha I'm so envious of you for not with these songs. Yeah. I I wake up humming these songs >> because I've heard enough and like yesterday there was like some gathering in hubli where some 3,000 women were given kishul disha by the shriam sa I think so there is all there is enough lunacy I suppose happening here also so I mean there's more than enough for him to go around u but see the songs that you've been tracking are overtly fanning hate inciting violence right I was wondering what you make of like say for example in Karata What I've seen is that there is a different set of uh mobilization I suppose you could call it which is happening along music per se in terms of setting up of these what we call as bajana mandalies basically prayer budan groups right so I feel like there is a uh one set of music is calling for incitement is is inciting hate but there's another kind of music organization that's happening which consolidates or heightens a sense of devotion or is consolidating a Hindu identity you know what do you make of this contrast I was wondering so these bajana mandales are mostly around Ram by the way so that is also interesting because of the push that the RSS has for that particular god >> I think essentially I mean we we have a long rich history of of of bhajans being used for various things and the book also actually talks about uh the history of how some of these were also used for political purposes except not for you know purposes of the far right as we are now seeing. So I think in in a sense bhajans per se wouldn't be a problem but what we're increasingly seeing uh in my experience especially is that some of these have have very subtle forms of regurgitating the s's way of looking at religion. Um right so a lot of them would talk about for instance the Ram mandr uh and the inauguration of the temple without any any political context to to why that you know why that is to be looked at with a certain amount of skepticism and why it is a political movement. So they will regurgitate things like you know Ram was banished for 500 years and and and Modi and the temple got him back. Um so so that kind of subtle you know rhetoric is present.

[00:56:04]Um, interestingly what you mentioned is we're now seeing a a slightly more upscale version of that Anisha in I don't know if you heard of these bhajan clubbing events that are happening. Um, where Yeah. Yeah. So, so we're essentially seeing again them also, you know, sort of appealing to the same section and saying that we're actually just singing devotional music which is about Hindus. But a couple of things there, right? They're again again singing those songs which were specially created around the consecration of the Ram temple two years ago. So they they they sing and perform those very songs where which say you know Lord Ram is back and so on and so forth. Some of them even actually play a clip from Narendra Modi uh from his his Manibbat podcast where he where he was highlighting how Bhajan clubbing is amazing right and he was praising Bajan clubbing. they play his clip in the in the program to almost validate their existence. Uh and they make no I mean you know sort of they make no effort in many ways to actually delink themselves from the Hindu folk. Um uh we've also seen attempts by you know the BJP especially in DU and and other states where they're treating these bhajan clubbing performers to perform in college festivals. So they're clearly seeing uh you know this sort of religiosity and and this appeal to religiosity I think as a pathway to hindutwa politics because that's how you also end up luring younger people towards religion and then ultimately luring them towards your idea of what religion is and I think that is what bhajan as well as bajan clubbing in some ways are able to do >> so kunal tell me something you have been observing the hedgehop first thing is hop a word that you started I wouldn't want to claim on that, but I mean I just thought it was a catchy word. I don't know if there was uh I mean people were calling it pop and then like you know sort of hate music and stuff but I would keep listening to K-pop. I mean I wouldn't listen to it but I knew about K-pop and I said oh you know why not call it Hop.

[00:58:04]>> Oh my god.

[00:58:05]>> So it was Yeah.

[00:58:07]>> You have no respect for K-pop.

[00:58:09]>> No I love K-pop anyways.

[00:58:10]>> Exactly. So um Kunal tell me so you have been observing hop for a few years now how how popular has it become over time right and how has it spread across languages across regions can I'll add one more layer to that is there a class layer also in all of this because you mentioned once at the beginning that you know this is primarily a rural small town thing and now these budgeon clubbing events so is it cutting across class now or was there ever a difference? No. So I in fact when I started tracking it in 2018 uh I I I went with these assumptions that okay this is a predominantly rural phenomena.

[00:58:48]There's only a certain class of people because when I would report on these things in you know in rural UP rural Jaran and come back to Bombay and tell people about these songs nobody had a clue. I wouldn't see anything on social media. Um and then slowly over the last six seven years as I've been tracking it um you know hop has moved from the rural to the urban like I said but it's also actually transcended class barriers because what was happening on the streets outside mosques in in in India especially is now happening outside mosques in bigger cities of India as well including Mumbai including Hyderabad in Lakn in uh in in in in in parts of Karnataka in Delhi So we're seeing that this has transcended you know those urban rural geographies in terms of class also it has now transcended those class barriers because uh as I said right it's what it's done is now it's also being played in college festivals uh in in colleges here I mean I was horrified when the when the cricket world cup that happened a couple of years ago H4 was was played in the cricket world cup and I mean you know if you guys remember I remember the the tickets were exorbitant So you know that it's only a certain class of of people in India who were able to afford those tickets and when H was played in the stadium they were singing along uh while it was played. So what it essentially tells you is that you know it's been able to create a a broader appeal across class and geographies >> and you're saying that across language also it spread right now. Can you tell us a few examples that you have tracked where it has had real life implications because of the calls for violence?

[01:00:29]>> I mean essentially Zanya the book began with uh you know with me reporting on a on a real life incident where there was a Muslim boy of of 20 years uh who was lynched by a Hindu mob in in a place called Gumla in Jarkand. uh when I when I visited that many many months after the incident and and no news report had really pointed to this link the only thing that we knew about this lynching was that it had happened on Ram Nami.

[01:00:57]When I went back to that place to understand what had happened what I found was that there was a Ram Nami procession this is again 2017 and the Ram Nami procession started playing songs which called for Muslims to be attacked. um you know something to the line of Topiwala juk jam right and and other songs which called for Muslims to be attacked because they were they were targeting Hindu girls and so on. uh this this procession once the procession finishes and some of the men are going back uh these men spot this Muslim boy talking to a Hindu girl right so 2 hours ago they're dancing to this song which calls for Muslims to be exterminated because they're targeting Hindu girls and then these men find a Muslim boy standing and chatting with a Hindu girl and and what they do is they drag him to the nearest street pole they can find they tie him and then they lynch him to death u so That was that was actually my introduction to this world. We've seen this happen multiple times over in Caron. We've seen this happen in Bah in UP where essentially Hindu processions are passing through sensitive communal communally sensitive areas or areas which predominantly Muslim population stand outside mosques or outside areas where Muslims stay and then they play songs which are essentially abusing and dehumanizing Muslims. Um I've understood that the trick essentially is to get a you know to provoke a reaction from the Muslim side and once that reaction comes it it then becomes a full-blown uh you know riot or or a clash. This also happened in Mumbai by the way in 2023 where again a Ramnami procession you know sort of stood outside a mosque in in in this place called Malad played a song which essentially called for Hindus to wage a war against um you know adheres or or people who were against Hindu religion and and and that provoked someone from the Muslim community to you know to throw a chapel and then it became a clash. So there are multiple instances where this song has been able to trigger that that kind of violence. But I think DA I mean more than that I think what it's also doing is is is psychologically normalizing the rhetoric of hate. Um what it essentially tells you is that you know it's okay to think of Muslims as as people who are harming Hindu traditions as harming Hindus as people who need to be exterminated or driven out. That's the kind of rhetoric that it's constantly sort of, you know, normalizing in your mind. Uh and and what what music does is music doesn't, you know, restrict itself to a political space, right? So it's not that you only go to a rally and you listen to these songs. These songs are playing everywhere. They're playing in your home, they're playing in your car, they're playing in a in a shop. Uh and and sort of that normalizing chilling effect is is what is very very problematic for us as society.

[01:03:48]>> I want to ask about the big tech, right?

[01:03:50]So even in your book you have written about uh I mean in several articles also afterwards about how many of these videos are on YouTube and there are millions of people watching. Has there been any communication from the big tech companies uh saying that they're concerned like you know uh for example when we talk about um how videos are taken down like there was one time when a lot of videos of journalists were being taken down because of random complaints and when we started voicing our opposition big tech reached out to us saying that how do we help? Um has that ever happened because of your writings and people following it up? Has anyone ever asked can we sit down and talk about how to really curb this uh this problem on the big tech?

[01:04:35]>> Well, in my experience, none. None at all. Um, ever since the book is out, I haven't been reached out by any of these big tech platforms. Um, in fact, what we did even with this report, DA, is that we didn't want to assume that big tech knows about these songs and they should they should proactively take them down.

[01:04:52]So, we went a step ahead. What we did was we reported about 40% of these songs. Yeah, 43% of these songs and we reported them manually across four platforms and told big tech platforms that look we found these songs which are problematic and violating of your of your of your policies. Why don't you take an take action against them and and we gave them 6 months right not a few days not a few weeks we gave them 6 months to act against it and what we found at the end was that only 8% of the songs were taken down. Um so what is what is very clear then is that it's not that big tech is unaware. Uh it is that big tech doesn't want to be taking action against these songs for whatever reasons that that they believe. Um there are there are other indicators that big tech is actively also encouraging some of this because we found we found you know some channels for instance which were very very instrumental and and and had a big chunk of these hop songs that they were creating and YouTube gave that channel a silver creator award for doing what it was doing right um we found other channels like I said we three in fact three YouTube channels consist of 40% % of all the songs that so it's it's not as if they are you know disparate sort of actors and it's very difficult to take note of three channels alone have 40% of all age pop songs on YouTube so if YouTube wants it can it can very very easily take action against them but it is clearly a sign that that you know they don't want to be acting against hindutwa rhetoric on the internet uh now look at the contrast what you said right look at the contrast in in the experience of a country like India where you make a you make a joke or a skit which is joking about the prime minister and it's taken down. You post videos about trains being overcrowded and it's taken down. Someone posts a video about data centers and how they might be bad for the environment and it's taken down. So these same platforms are very proactive and very actively monitoring any kind of disscent, any kind of criticism against the government but they're suddenly you know hless and unaware that hop exists on their platforms. Uh so I think that should tell us why these platforms are not looking at acting against it >> and I think language is an excuse that they make. I I've often realized that when we complain I had this experience of complaining about Facebook uh pages not even groups I think a few years ago which used to be in Malayalam. So they would upload pictures of uh kids. The pictures are very normal like kids maybe taking uh like you know walking on the road or in the park but the comments would be filled with sexual violence right and we had to keep on telling Facebook to bring down these uh pages and Facebook would tell us at that time that they this is I'm saying almost 8 n years ago that they do not have the uh bandwidth to actually look at content which is not in English Hindi including Hindi they said it was very difficult they did not have the staff etc. But I don't think today they can give any of those excuses because they have enough AI to go their algorithm is completely AIdriven. They know exactly what the content is and they can't even get away by saying that oh this song is religious 90% where is the hate we are not able to place like perhaps only one line is hateful right or two lines I don't think they can even make those kind of excuses anymore. No, sometimes we've also seen da that the thumbnails themselves have have such incriminating imagery on it, you know. So it would it would have a snake and the snake's head would be a Muslim man with a skull cap. Uh or we would have, you know, songs with say Batam molana jirama and you know so stuff like that the titles and the the the thumbnails themselves are very very incriminating. So they can't even say that we don't understand what this language is. I mean most of I think all of them or or maybe uh uh maybe 90 95% of these songs that we found were all in in Hindi. Uh there were some songs that we found which were in Marati as well.

[01:08:57]So you know big tech cannot say that it doesn't understand the language of the largest market that it has uh in the world right which is which is India. So it can't understand Hindi. It's it's difficult to believe.

[01:09:09]>> I think in South India this has been seen largely in Hyderabad. We've also reported a couple of times where in front of mosques they have been playing these songs especially in go shamal and some of these constituencies right have you tracked some of the stuff which happened in south also >> so hyderabad yes because you know t raja singh personally leads these ram nami processions and in fact he's also a singer he he sort of sings a lot of these songs himself so on YouTube on Spotify you know after the show finishes go and search for his name and you will see videos of him singing in a in a studio and then those songs are then played u you know in those Ram nami pro processions when he's leading it right so in some ways he's the playback singer he's the actor he's he's everything uh but it's no it's not just about uh it's not just about Hyderabad I mean we we I know that there are Telugu songs that exist beyond Tira Raja Singh's songs uh there are actually in Karnataka in multiple places uh Ramnami processions are are are very much the way they are in in North India which is that there are these large processions and they play incriminating hpop songs and they stand outside mosques. Uh if you just go to you just go to YouTube they they actually you know sort of upload videos every single year unfailingly uh about these processions right especially places like Gulberga um I know that Hubli's had some of these uh sort of experiences as well. So there are these places which are again known for their Ram nami processions and and I think some of the reasons to do with it not being able to expand further is possibly because there is a non-BJP government in Karnataka. uh I don't know how how much longer it'll be able to hold because uh we used to have this very very similar expectation from West Bengal for instance that you know this could never spread in West Bengal and and yet despite Hindu pop songs not being in Bengali them all being in Hindi we've seen over the last few years that Ram Nami and these songs have actually become very very popular in West Bengal similar is the case in the state that I am in which is Maharashtra where we find very few age pop songs in in Maharashtra And yet you know Ram Nami processions are very common now and these songs have become extremely popular in cities like Mumbai as well. So what we're seeing is that you know it no longer needs the regional language to be able to grow in a region. Uh Hindi age pop songs and the allure of of of those processions I think there are enough reasons for young people to be attracted to it.

[01:11:42]Unfortunately even in in Mumbai uh Ganesh Chhaturi is actually a very popular festival for Hindu pop songs.

[01:11:48]Now and it's not just that these songs are then played uh what happens is there are these traditional bands which you know which play music live in some of these Ganesh Chhati processions I mean even those bands have now started playing Hindutwa pop songs similarly you know Mumbai and as well as Gujarat there is the tradition of the garba right during the Nabraatri nights and even during those festivals now age pop songs play while people dance to sing songs like bharatka bata bacha Jirama and so on.

[01:12:20]>> Okay. So, thank you for that Kunal. Two things. One is do read the book Hop the Secretive World of Hindusta pop stars.

[01:12:27]But do not follow Kunal's recommendation which is he's saying go on Spotify and check for Raja Singh songs. Are you like crazy? My algorithm will be showing me Raja Singh and the likes. So, thank you very much Kunal for joining us.

[01:12:41]>> Thank you so much Za. Thank you Anisha.

[01:12:43]Thank you guys.

[01:12:44]>> Okay. So now after the second discussion with Kunal we will go to the recommendations. We will start with you Anisha. What is your recommendation?

[01:12:52]>> Okay. So I have two recommendations and I think if you need to understand the RSS we also need to understand the time in which it was formed and I think the best person for that is to read Ambedkar uh Ambedkar's essay from fractions to millions. This is on uh when you know the first communal awards happened and when the census by the way back then in the early 1910s 20s would ask a question separately on untouchability and counted untouchable people as separate category from Hindus and it is after that it is around that time that the RSS was formed and reading that essay really really changes the way you look at Hindu society. Indian society the RSS etc. And another one would be Ambedkar's annihilation of cast. So yeah when I first read it when you know that whole Arunati Roy essay this thing and all that happened like when I read it I thought that yeah somebody in the RSS sat down and read this and then developed its program as a counter to what Ambitkar was saying. So yeah I mean that was me very very ignorant back then but yeah I think there is some measure of >> 1925 perspective too. So uh I mean just just to sort of connect it to what we've been speaking about I think I think everyone should read this book. Uh I don't know if you guys have read this.

[01:14:15]It's it's called careless people a story of where I used to work which is essenti Facebook staffer and and she was high up in the chain and it's it's astounding man. And I mean her her her sort of talking about what goes on within within you know corporate boardrooms like Meta's one would imagine that a a a corporation as powerful as Meta would would take more care to be doing what it's doing and and and I think the book reveals that it doesn't it doesn't care about anything except profits. So I I really hope that people do go and read it especially because Mark Zuckerberg doesn't want anybody to read the book.

[01:14:52]So the author has been actually banned from promoting the book. So I hope more and more people read this. I mean since we're talking about the RSS I would definitely recommend uh from the caravan Amritita Singh Sager and Dain's work all of them have done a lot of excellent reporting just mapping the RSS and since we're also talking about Karnataka and we didn't actually get into it but you know the way in which the RSS has functioned within Karnataka is a subject of maybe a very separate uh conversation maybe Gishma 's uh 18 part series for the first post is something I find myself going back to quite frequently.

[01:15:33]And just to throw in a non RSS recommendation there, the Heidi Blake investigation on allegations of abuse against at Andrew um for the New Yorker is extremely disturbing and very interesting. And of course, the News Minute has done its own separate series of articles on the manosphere. So maybe that's an associate recommendation.

[01:15:56]Shardul you took my recommendation away.

[01:15:59]I'm going to give the same thing.

[01:16:01]>> Okay.

[01:16:02]>> So mine is one. So I already mentioned and also a bit of a selfplug but I recommend it to everybody who finds themsself or imagines themselves in opposed to this new regime BJP and the whole thought process. The reason is and like DA would know but in a different context like while I was writing this series and I was pretty new in the profession. I had a lot of tussle with the desk. But the whole point is if you are analyzing let's say quote unquote your adversary to deny or sort of short sell their key abilities or achievements is sort of a self goal like you should never you should never ignore the capabilities of your adversary.

[01:16:48]So this is a three-part let's talk about Rashti Swam Saksung how it began from the very beginning the thought process till Modi's election since then we've known and I got to write it because I I grew up in the organization. The second one is an interesting book I found couple of weeks ago. I have finished it but I'm sort of I don't I want to reread it. It's the science of revenge understanding the world's deadliest addiction and how to overcome it. It's written by James Kimmel Jr. It's a very interesting book that it it says that revenge is also an addiction which human beings are invariably linked to and now we've given it different forms and shapes. One of them is most known as and we call for it as justice for the wrong done when state sort of enters the court and everything. It's a very interesting aspect and window and he uses neuroscience not just his argument neuroscience neuroscientific facts and fMRI plays a lot of uh role in this his arguments and he is a lawyer personally so very interesting book it gives you a window into societal and individual thinking how we think about justice and what's wrong and what's right >> yeah so my recommendation was already given by Nikita but I want to give the same thing it's the New New Yorker's piece on Andrew Tate's empire of abuse and there are a couple of videos also they put out. It's a very shocking series about how he built his empire simply exploiting women and as the blurb says it's not just an empire. It's also a political force. It's also religious force in in one way. So do read that. Um that's it for recommendations and everything else this week. Thank you very much for joining us here on South Central. Thank you to my producers Mega Mundan and Jasim Ali uh AJ who does a production Sukanya Shaji and Ria who does all the socials. Keep watching, keep listening, and don't forget to like us on Spotify, Apple, etc., etc.