A CHAT WITH ADAMS OSHIOMOLE

[00:00:15]Hello everyone, welcome to the MOM podcast. I am Shimalu, our guest today on the MON podcast. from the factory floors of labor activism to the highest levels of political power.

[00:00:30]Few Nigerians have been able to grow that much in our nation's political history and is one when he gets into a political conversation. You know his views are very very strong. Today I'll be speaking with a former president of the Nigerian Labor Congress, a two-time governor of Edo State, a former national chairman of the APC, and now serving senator, Senator Adam Sushima. It's a pleasure having you on the MOM podcast.

[00:00:59]>> Thank you for having me, show.

[00:01:01]>> Thank you so much indeed. Um, I saw how vehement you were um when you were on the floor and you spoke about the NNPC, but it does look like your colleagues didn't like it.

[00:01:14]No, let me be very clear on that.

[00:01:17]More than 80% of my colleague were with me, they supported me because what the Senate did was completely in breach of the rules of the Senate and the tradition of the Senate.

[00:01:31]Before you discuss a matter arising from the proceedings of a committee, the committee is asked to lay his report. The report will contain everything that transpired at the committee level and their recommendation and then you proceed to discuss the recommendation.

[00:01:54]Now uh usually this report is laid by the chairman of the committee and the second is in the eyes of the chairman the vice chairman or anybody nominated by him can be asked to lay the report but in this particular instance the I think the senate president had personal interest.

[00:02:20]Uh I simply walk in nobody asked me anything and then I saw the senate leader reading uh is it a motion or whatever it was and people were say but this is unusual what is the report that you're acting on and they said there was something in television and something newspapers is that the basis If your members have been accused or a member has been accused, you call on the member to explain himself what happened before you act. But here you have a senate president who decided uh that my that the the the a resolution will be passed and I think they took that issue in the night and I believe they acted in a manner that lend itself to huge suspicion.

[00:03:31]And you will also notice there were two things they they claim they were worried about.

[00:03:40]The first is that they said they want to disown the statement created to me.

[00:03:48]If I make a statement, can you disown it? I didn't say I was speaking on behalf of the senate president.

[00:03:57]I was speaking as a senator elected by my people to represent them and the views I parrot are mine and the powers I exercise are derived from the constitution of Nigeria not derived I tried to be nice when I was responding they are not derived from the senate president office no other why he can as well call any Nigerian to be a member of a committee you have to be a senator >> but do you think declaring Uh I mean asking for a warrant of arrest. Do you think it was you took a wrong decision?

[00:04:32]Yeah.

[00:04:32]>> They talk about the issues.

[00:04:34]>> Mhm.

[00:04:36]>> Um because even that sort of question should have come before the senior president. Do you think why did you how did you arrive at this before the senior can now debate whether it's appropriate or inappropriate?

[00:04:48]So let's go. Let me conclude the first question as to whether many of the senate were with me or not. They were with me because we were 13.

[00:05:01]Now the senate questioned two issues.

[00:05:07]Let me say the senior president that we don't have power to uh issue bant.

[00:05:17]Now the decision to issue a bwar the motion was moved by senator and seconded by senator and we all endorse it unanimously myself inclusive.

[00:05:38]The second is my respond to the to the former uh chief financial controller of NPC whose tenure is h the investigation covers who pointedly said to the committee that it is you people. And now I know that the senior president they said his daughter was taken by me carry and put in a where as Nigerians will say in a in a juicy position that he probably didn't merit.

[00:06:17]Um and so the senator in a generalized manner I said and you senators bring your children and I said but you guys have turned an MPC to a traditional institution where the son inherit the throne of the father they past leaders of NPC they all have employed their children their uncle their cousins their in-laws into various aspect of NPC and put them in different positions. If they carry out the payroll of NNPC, you will find that they've almost the third the top level to a family business.

[00:07:00]And I said, frankly speaking, are the childrens of senators not Nigerians?

[00:07:07]You can only make an issue if you give them a job they did not merit, they are not qualified for, and you didn't follow the right procedure. But somebody told me that the senior president was taking without not through a regular interview not through the normal [clears throat] but if that is his problem that is not the reason I will be there and somebody will accuse me and so I tell you now if I reacted in the manner that I did I didn't say the senate says you are a thief I didn't say the senate says the house of rep house of uh sorry the NPC is a house of thieves. So how can the senior disown what they didn't say that is not their resolution I spoke as a person and somebody think I have visual his reputation there are legal means this same senate president is on record and those records are everywhere where he adise us or remind us that when the committee sit it's like the minister is sitting the chairman exercises the power of the sitting president we have the right to issue burant warrant and The good news I will forward to you is that somebody who has read this thing many people who have committed have somehow I don't know how they have this record of all the people who have been who the senate had issued bench warrant from time to time previous based on the express provision of the 1999 conit constitution as amended of which you h the senior president can decline to exercise these powers.

[00:08:56]It will be up to him >> but [clears throat] he cannot pronounce that what is in the constitution is irrelevant nor can he lecture any senator >> about [clears throat] procedures and I told him this.

[00:09:07]>> So the same >> so now you asked me a question whether I thought it was appropriate >> to issue b warrant.

[00:09:14]>> Yes.

[00:09:16]is appropriate because in framing the 1999 constitution which give the senate these powers not the rules of the senate the 1999 constitution.

[00:09:30]Uh I think the framers of the caution rightly anticipated that there may be people who may be unwilling to honor summons and the oversight function of the Senate is at the heart of the responsibility of parliament to check and she check the constitution. It doesn't even allow the senior president to nominate anybody who is in the ruling party. the chairman of that committee must necessarily be an a member of the opposition.

[00:10:05]That is what the constitution says. Why?

[00:10:08]Because I think I I'm sure in the in the in the thinking of those who frame the constitution and I believe rightly is that to ensure checks and balances [clears throat] the opposition should produce the chairman >> prayerfully that the the opposition will want to hide whatever the government of the day wants to you know will expose whatever the government of the day will want to hide and to ensure that they look at this more objectively without political favor.

[00:10:36]>> Yeah.

[00:10:38]So, so that is it. Now, why did we have to talk about issue besarant if we have invited you night times to speak to an audit report and night times you did not show up.

[00:10:57]You did not even write to us to see this is why I am not able to come.

[00:11:04]And for there was a time we decided order the leadership of the former chairman Senator Wada to publish the invitation of Meleari to come and appear before the committee.

[00:11:20]And let me also clarify that the reason we had to call on the previous management is because the current manager MD rightly said he was not in a position to explain some of these things because they all happened before he was appointed.

[00:11:38]There was a time we had to remind him that he has inherited the asset and liabilities of an NPC and so he should be able to speak to the issues and even the letters we issue we decided they had to be issued through the current management of an NPC now if somebody doesn't appear and you do not what other instrument peaceful instrument love instrument is available >> so you are left with no other option that after the statement you made was what one of the things that that got a lot of people thinking that it should be bundled either dead or alive.

[00:12:15]>> Yeah.

[00:12:16]>> Do you think I mean with the benefit of hindsight do you think we should have made that statement?

[00:12:20]>> Oh yes and it is within a context.

[00:12:22]That's why I said you know before you speak to something you have to understand the overall circumstance of which you make a certain statement.

[00:12:32]A senator informed us, I think it was Senator Gib from Quir etc said about a week ago he had telephone conversation with Senator um sorry with Mr. Melari and he promised he will be present on that day.

[00:13:00]So he's not sure what might have happened.

[00:13:04]Then another senator, Senator Wi said the the day before or so or two days earlier he had the information he spoke to him and he said he was sick.

[00:13:21]He was hospitalized in Germany.

[00:13:26]He's hospitalized in Germany.

[00:13:29]Now my dear friend, even in court of law, if you are supposed to sit and hear a matter and the suspect or the accused person or anyone who is supposed to be in court on that occasion is not available.

[00:13:52]Even if it is the defense council or prosecuting council for health reasons is not able to come on a date that he has been served notice to appear.

[00:14:03]You will have to have a medical report to say based on this unforeseen development including illness uh the suspect or the defendant is not able to appear because he's is hospitalized in a hospital.

[00:14:29]That for me is a regular feed to do. So if me really was in a hospital having been an MD it cannot be assumed not to know basic common sense procedure particularly when you know that for previous eight times you have been invited you didn't show up and he was not in hospital he was in Nigeria here many of the members whether he plays golf I don't know what he does claim that oh they know he's around oh they spoke to him two weeks ago oh they met him so so for me if you tell us now that the man is hospitalized. I say okay >> in reaction to that because he didn't write to us. So I was actually communicating with those people who are claiming >> that his brother okay bring him here dead or alive >> I stand by that >> and you don't regret it >> it is just it is just >> you don't regret that statement >> because I think no no it's not unfair >> unfair but I spoke in a context I spoke in idom >> because I do not believe and he did not inform us and I was trying to say to the people that he just using that as a You know she you read law I didn't but I've heard in court when somebody is probably detained for an alleged offense and the court wants him to appear and the security agencies for some reason or the other are not producing the person before the judge and the matter cannot go on without the appearance of the person. If it has a criminal content the judge will say bring him let us >> be convinced that the man is alive either dead or alive. It is in that context. It is not a wish that you should die [laughter] >> but you want to convince yourself that >> they are not lying.

[00:16:22]>> I believe they were lying.

[00:16:24]>> I mean >> and even they were not lie the burden of communication to be by him.

[00:16:29]>> I mean >> he's not paralyzed.

[00:16:31]>> He's not a cautious. But I'm happy that after that day he was reported as say that he will soon be in Nigeria when he come. So why didn't he respond before then?

[00:16:41]>> Still to come on the mic on podcast.

[00:16:44]>> If have his way he will lock me out of the senate.

[00:16:48]>> Really?

[00:16:49]>> Yeah. Because he has misled himself into thinking that I am probably the devil he knows.

[00:16:59]All right. And there are many agents he doesn't know.

[00:17:03]>> On podcast on Instagram at the mic on podcast.

[00:17:10]Follow Mike on podcast on Facebook at the mic on podcast.

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[00:17:55]>> Sh. You know say I begin to register people for voters card and this registration will be the last do before 27 general election. I don't begin to arrest people from on the 11th of May [music] and they go close on THE 10TH OF JULY 2026. If you not you never register before or you JUST 18 YEARS ENTER any neck office where they near you or you still visit us online whereby www.cvro.neck [music] in neck nigeria.org to pre-register and when you do that you must enter [music] INC office where you do your fingerprint and your photograph if you relocate and you won't vote on your new location or your PVC was all [music] damaged register fresh just enter online water or enter any office apply for transfer or another PC again make vote now you're right now they bring this message now they make vote count they make our democracy Thank you for joining us on this edition of Mike on podcast. This podcast will return soon.

[00:19:02]>> You as a as a as a senator, two-time governor, a former NLC leader.

[00:19:08]>> Yes.

[00:19:08]>> There has been years of complaints by a lot of authorities about the opakqueness of the activities and the accounts of NNPC.

[00:19:19]Why does this surprise you?

[00:19:21]Well to be honest with you you know sometime I'm fighting to restrain myself and I do understand the burden of parliament of being a member of parliament because it's not like executive you have to have an aggregate opinion you know cumulatively I have come to the conclusion that anything affecting NPC.

[00:19:54]It is difficult for a Nigerian institution including the Senate and I will speak to evidence.

[00:20:08]Late last year, as you might remember, or was it earlier this year, there was the issue of whether or not NPC should supply crude oil to Dangote refinery and they had someone who was in Dumm or whatever this Mr. Farukq who insisted that they were going to import what many people believe was a substandard petroleum product from Russia which because of the action they are selling below par and therefore they can make a lot of money out of it at the expense of a refinery that on reflection now but for Dangot Nigeria economy would have be grounded completely because even big countries with powers and so on with more transparency. They have challenges assessing PMS because of the war uh in Iran >> between America, Israel and Israel and Iran.

[00:21:10]>> Now it got to a point that rightly the s felt that this matter cannot be left between these two people. And you know who moved the motion for this investigation? Is someone who many people believe is uh a spokesperson. He represent the senior president and he raised emotion that how can we be watching helplessly while the economy of Nigeria is under h pressure and people are making conflict statement that the Senate should investigate.

[00:21:49]The leadership of the Senate went to Dangote Refinery to go as cities for themselves and they all spoke to media men that they were very impressed about what they saw on ground that a Nigerian has been able to put in place.

[00:22:11]I think the leadership of House of Reps went. So following this uh dispute between Dangote with regards to whether or not they should access Nigeria crude before me was a sless debate and thank God Mr. President resolve it by saying no they should give a crude but before that it intervention NPC prefer to be importing finished product because that is the only way they make their transactions.

[00:22:41]Now, Senator Aquabio, our senate president set up and the senate approved a committee to investigate the issues between NNPC and Dangote refinery. Why NPC is unable to deliver crude to refinery? they prefer to export it and then import finished product of douful standard and the senate president said this is he's asking the senate leader to chair this committee uh as um because of the importance the senate attached to this dispute that has to do with the life wire of Nigeria economy Whether you are looking at terms of supply access to refining the job people are working with refinery in Dagot refinery and NPC as an institution.

[00:23:46]I recall vividly the day we were inaugurated.

[00:23:51]Some journalists they are like Google.

[00:23:56]They said to our chairman, "Are you sure that you will be allowed to do this investigation to conclusion?"

[00:24:04]And a report submitted.

[00:24:07]The Senate leader said for him to chair this panel is a statement of the importance the Senate attached to this issue between NPC and Dagot refinery.

[00:24:24]The journalist said to us, "No inquiry that has to do with NPC has ever seen the light of the day."

[00:24:33]The journalist said to said to the senate leader, to all of us and the senate leader confidently assured the journalist that this one will be different.

[00:24:45]Nice talk.

[00:24:48]As we speak, I have not been removed as a member of that committee.

[00:24:53]that committee has not been dissolved but that committee was never allowed to sit after all the we all the issues raised I didn't come to Abuja to at this age I'm tired to go arrest I've done enough but if I had to wake up to keep appointment in the senate and do all of thing that the the constitution enjoin us to do we must not be seen as fooling Nigerians we raise the tempo Then those are people involved are afraid. They move around in the night and then the following day everywhere is quiet. I don't want to be part of that tradition.

[00:25:33]So don't take it from me. Ask the senate leader. Ask the senate president what happened to his committee that he set up >> after he led the de he I was not in that delegation by the way. He led the delegation to Dangote refinery and make very positive statement about the huge huge investment that he saw and he set up a committee asking what is the report of the committee. We never sat one day and those journalists who are Nigeria gole the senators have come and go but the journalists have remained in their profession.

[00:26:11]>> Yeah. And they remind us that if it is NPC the committee will not sit and nothing will come out of it and as I speak never sat.

[00:26:20]>> It looks like the Senate leadership. So I think that what has happened is that >> once we raise the the bar the risk >> that Malik carry is exposed to >> if it does not appear and we said we will recommend and it's not from me play back all the various edited version the chairman of the committee who is the chairman he said I will communicate this to the senior president to issue to recommend that we have recommended that uh birch water should be issued.

[00:26:55]>> So if the city thought that they will not go by if the leadership let's be care because 80% of the senators were not in agreement with what senator go like president of the senate did that day.

[00:27:08]>> Yeah. So it does look like you were thrown under the bus by the leadership of the senate. Yes. And there are inferences to whether this is personal because this is looking like a Senate power play. And there are those who say maybe you are becoming a threat because there are discussions and permutations about the future leadership uh of the the National Assembly of the Senate and that your name has been thrown up about the future leadership of the National Assembly. Are you becoming a threat? Is that the reason why uh it does look like you and Senate President Gosabio are not on the same page?

[00:27:49]>> Well, or is there anything that >> What I can say for sure and I said it on the floor of the Senate is that there are two issues you are quarreling with.

[00:27:59]The first is that you claim that we don't even have right to make a recommendation and I I find that very ridiculous because if you cannot if you make a recommendation it is up to the person you are recommending to to decline but to condemn us for dear to say we shall report to our to our president and then you say you public disown us for saying so you know now who moved that motion the person secured the motion they were both on the floor of seen it he didn't mention their names that's why I said how come that is only my name that is mentioned if the issue before us I play back the conversation that day in full he said there are two issue I should speak to the issue of uh of b war batt motion was moved by senator uh this guy in labor labor party formally in >> senator no one Senator, Victor, >> Victor moved the motion and it was seconded by Senator Wui and I reminded the Senate Buy is a principal officer of the Senate. He seconded the motion. Why did you measure his name? Why are you reducing the Adam social money so clearly and I say I understand why they think and I think wrongly that they can destroy my image or make me sound like a a controversial figure and in his in his in their in his president's narrow calculations he believed that he projected me in the worst light that is it and I believe I'm trying to manage my language. I believe that he doesn't appreciate that the leadership of any institution including Senate.

[00:29:56]President of Nigeria is in the hand of God not in the hand of man.

[00:30:02]Have you become Have you become a threat to him? What is that? I probably forget forget that >> I was a founding governor of APC and I was DG of Ba in Buka Pain that has given us victory. I'm not say I I I I am responsible for the victory but that I work for it and I'm happy we [clears throat] got it.

[00:30:31]and he's so paranoid about anything that has to do with me.

[00:30:37]So everybody in the Senate knows that if have his way, he will lock me out of the Senate.

[00:30:46]Really?

[00:30:46]>> Yeah. Because he has misled himself into thinking that I am probably the devil. He knows.

[00:30:56]All right. And there are many agents he doesn't know and the level senate will not be like the third senate. This I can say it can be how senators are grubbling about his style of leadership but we try to manage and I've tried to assure him look Mr. Senate President I am a very fulfilled person. The source of my fulfillment flow from the fact that my expectation in life was not much.

[00:31:27]I never knew I can be counselor. I didn't even want to be. If you ask my colleague in the NC, they will tell you when we were discussing whether or not to form the Labor Party, I oppose the idea. I said our business is to be neutral. When politicians form government and they take a wrong decision is for us as trade unions to go and fight it only to find myself becoming a governor thereafter because of the way I led the Nigerian Labor Congress. Whatever job I'm given to do, I ask God to give me not just the job.

[00:32:01]Most people pray for opportunity.

[00:32:04]I ask God to give me courage, courage and even greater wisdom to do that job to the satisfaction of my constituent.

[00:32:15]>> So that is it. Senator, the senior president bias against me is very well known. M >> um I will not join in speculating as to the reason for his bias.

[00:32:29]Many people in that senate knows in fact if you if you if I'm going around the floor of the Senate and I go greeting certain persons and we have conversations uh the man become uncomfortable. He thinks that I I will give you this.

[00:32:49]Senator Yari approached senior president. He wanted to be uh vice chairman of the senior committee on interior. I am the chairman of the senior committee on interior and Yari said he want to be vice chairman and the senior president said to him so you want to join senator shumali to be planning how to remove him as senate president he said that but I just laugh it off there are occasions >> are you really planning to remove him >> pardon >> do you have ambition of replacing >> excuse me if you decide the way the senate work the senior president the among equals.

[00:33:32]He selected only the person favored by the senators.

[00:33:38]Remember if senator had got the majority he could have been the senate president.

[00:33:42]Mhm.

[00:33:42]>> So it's [clears throat] not about what anybody wishes but who the senators want >> but do you have the ambition of at because there are issues about those who voted against him or what I mean at some point they grumbling within the Senate but you are one your name has come up and I've asked you this question before that there are those who who see you and who profile you to become the Senate President. Well, I don't know. This is you are a media man. I can't question your sources or otherwise. But what I can tell you the irony is that because of some external consideration, I found myself having to support the senior president. not only to support him but to [clears throat] persuade anyone I could to vote for him and I voted for him and in a do he got all the three senate votes because we have to persuade people to do to to to look at the bigger picture and all of that. So I voted for him but I can tell you that within months of that office assuming office I think within 3 months or so my former my former uh colleague now governor of Edo state he came here who are actually persuaded that we should all support him and I told Senator Yari sorry based on the spirit the call I honorarily I was supposed to because he's somebody I had known we had worked together as a colleague in the same party for a long time but I told him on this matter of senior president sorry I am not able to support you because of certain criteria that we had agreed on namely that this position be zoned to the south south and therefore I am supporting senator uh the senior president and I did and I pursued senator Monday to agree that if we don't support senator Aquabio people will accuse us of for you remember detention >> that you have president as Muslim vice president as Muslim so if you have the senior president as Muslim and the speaker as Muslim before you know it they will say yeah we have actually start started the process of Islamization and on my honor I offered and approached people to vote for Senator Aquabio. The day of the election I wore I never do that. I wore his muffler with his portrait to indicate that I am proabio.

[00:36:36]>> But today >> uh like I said 3 months later that my governor came here and said we should go and see the senior president.

[00:36:44]I said no it's too late. I've been there a couple of time. I'm always told he's not around. Okay. He said no let's go. I felt for someone who has always respected me, I should also accord him respect. Okay, let's go. He drove two of us went to his house and I was sure when I saw him say, "Oh, Adam thank you." I said, "What is the matter?" He said he was told that I was planning I was attending a not senator's meeting who are planning to remove him.

[00:37:18]I said who are the not senators meeting who are planning to remove him? I asked him and he mentions some names and I said I have told you you were my colleague also you should know me if I hold if I come to the conclusion that I will support those who are opposed to you I will do so in the daytime why will I hold a noonal meeting when you cannot do me anything for planning anything I want to plan that is within the law it is lawful to remove a senior president following the provision of the Nigerian constitution and senior presidents have been removed while they are seated.

[00:37:58]So why will I have a secret meeting with northern senators? In any case, what is your problem with not senators?

[00:38:06]He said that what they were told. So I said to myself and I told the governor then before he he became governor. I said so if for any reason I didn't come here now they will say I am planning h I I'm attending a meeting of not senators that are opposed to and he uses this ethic thing to create a division in the senate I don't think that is helpful [clears throat] >> still to come on the mic on podcast >> story about in fact this [music] take us back about npc having a tradition of not accounting is as old as the Nigerian nation In fact, I will play to you when I finish the interview the comment part of the campaign agenda of MK Abola what he said he would do about NPC.

[00:38:56]>> The NPC has become a huge house of fraud.

[00:38:59]>> Make it a date with Shun Oaken Malloy on Mike on [music] podcast every Saturday at 700 p.m. as he x-rays issues beyond the regular and dives [music] deeper to depths that allow him bring you answers to questions on your mind. In this podcast room, everything points [music] to accountability and you are the boss.

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[00:40:10]SAY YOU KNOW I begin to register people for voters and this registration the last do before 27 general election I don't begin to register people for on the 11th of May and they go close on the 10th of July [music] 2026 if you not you never register before or YOU JUST 18 YEARS ENTER any ICE office where they near you or you still visit us online where be www.cv [music] cvro.neck nigeria.org or to pre-register and when you do that you must enter INC office where you do your fingerprint and your photograph [music] if you relocate and you want vote to your new location or your PVC lost or damage no REGISTER FRESH JUST ENTER online or [music] enter any office apply for transfer or another PVC again vote now you're right now I bring this message [music] now they make vote count now they make our democracy Thank you for joining us on this edition of Mike on podcast. This podcast will return soon.

[00:41:18]>> Senator, uh you built your reputation uh in the early stage as a um union leader, very well respected. A lot of Nigerians listen to you. But you look at what is happening in the country today.

[00:41:37]The president and the government of the day have promised in change a lot a lot of reforms and policies and they say look there might be present hardship but things will get better. But if you look at inflation, rising uh food prices, unemployment and looking back, the Adams who was the labor leader who would go to the street and protest on behalf of the Nigerian masses, if you were still NC president today, would you be protesting against the APC government?

[00:42:07]>> No.

[00:42:08]>> Why? Because the environment is different. And I tried and if you ask people in in the business community they will tell you that as NFC president I used to attend Nigeria economy summit group and that's where I met a lot of the uh leading players in the business committee so I can listen I can see through their thought process it broadens my knowledge of what is going on in the economy. me as society and it enable me to think through how we can respond where we think they are wrong and so on like when they introduce what they call Tina there is no alternative there's no alternative and I remember one day we we celebrate the fact that professor Alukuna of blessed memory said it is stupid for anybody to say there is no alternative believe that if you cannot die, you can live that even in life you have eternity either to die or to live.

[00:43:17]So knowing what I know now and I spoke to it during the campaign.

[00:43:23]Check my campaign slogan and also uh through Google find out my first interview with Arise television on the issue of President Bahinu's h presidency during the campaign. I said President Bahaminu will not run on the record of President uh Bhari of President Mohammad Buhari.

[00:43:54]Bhari was still a city president.

[00:43:57]I said Tinu will run on his own record and on his own person not on Bhari's record because President Tinu or Kadinu as he was was not a player in Bhari's government.

[00:44:13]He didn't even have the opportunity to nominate anyone of note as a minister in Bhari's government. Oh yes.

[00:44:23]>> Let me finish.

[00:44:24]>> He has absorb policies.

[00:44:26]>> Yeah. You see, President Tinu is a very sophisticated mind and he he has to he has to talk as a statesman.

[00:44:38]It would not be nice for the president to say I disown my predecessor. But I can say so if he's not able to say so because of his office and because of the role he played in helping president Bhari to become president after three times failure even though recently Amichi lied that he was the one. Meanwhile, Amichi did not vote for Boohari in 2015 because he unwisely I've said it to you before directed people of Rivers to back out the polls >> because he was overwhelmed by the forces of of as he was Governor Wiki. So as a DJ of the cap he he he asked his people not to vote. So but Tinubu stood by Bhari even when he was ignored.

[00:45:27]You recall that at a point presidentu has then asu leader of the party relocated so that at least he can be free from the humiliation arising from either choice of policy appointment of people and the overall direction some of the decisions that the president was taking and you remember that the first pronouncement of president uh Buhari was that I belong to no one I belong to everyone People like you who can interpret statement are proverbs. Who is the no one? Who is the one? Who does it belong to?

[00:46:06]>> And who is everybody that he belongs to?

[00:46:08]>> Could we have been referring to Balatenu at the time?

[00:46:10]>> Well, I leave that to you because you are specialized in interpreting and in hearing stories. But just to say that I said that why President um Muhammad Buhari was still in office because I know that President then leader as thinking was totally different from what Bhari was doing.

[00:46:39]>> So Bhari so derailed this country.

[00:46:43]>> Well if is that your view? If you are looking for headline, I will ask you to draw conclusions. For example, look at the last two main decisions he took when he said uh when they decided to change the currency.

[00:46:59]And are you sure even if you have money in the bank, you have money in the bank, you go and you have to queue asleep at ATM machine to draw your own money. And at a point it was reduced to a maximum of 20,000 then 10,000. At a point none was available. You were referred to go to POSOS. Most Nigeria didn't know what was poss.

[00:47:23]Now you recall they also said that any money you have not spent by social would have expired which amount to illegal confiscation of people's ad and income. They don't have the cash to give you and they say the one you have at home you cannot spend it.

[00:47:44]All of that was meant to destroy the economy and it did destroy the economy and presidentu has had to in a very diplomatic manner but please anytime president speak advise you to listen attentively to what he's saying and what he wouldn't say or what what he mean.

[00:48:05]Other president Buhari over 31 trillion naira back notes were printed other what you call ways and means they call it ways and means to give it an economic complicated matter. It is simple exactly the way the id mean as [clears throat] the governor of uh CBN in Uganda to go and print more money when the the the governor of the bank of Uganda said central bank of Uganda said Mr. President we don't have more money and he said go and print and the man said if we print more money the Uganda currency will be like will be like toilet paper will be worthless. The man say okay you call you g money what money we'll show you what they do with you know the other that happened >> so um that is basically what a mele the CBN governor was doing under the watch of president >> but senator the elections are here you don't think that Nigerians will punish tunu and the APC for some of what has become well tough policies see some tough environment that he met the country.

[00:49:21]>> Okay, I will ask you this question and you tell me if you were the voter whether you vote for a vote against it Abu Baka and any other main presidential candidate they all said they will withdraw the subsidy. So that was not controversial.

[00:49:48]So promises are cheap. What most leaders lack which president process is courage to do what he promised and he also made that promise along with Peter Oian on the first day he withdrew it. Why? Because it was a house of fraud. This policy was now a shield for all those who want to steal money to a point that we were borrowing to sustain subsidy. I should remember this if you want to talk about policies as you describe me as a man who led labor with credibility because the numbers were about 20 billion 30 billion 40 billion naira in a year.

[00:50:29]Now did it balloon to 6 trillion 8 trillion naira for subsidy one item and this subsidy does not include kerosene it does not include diesel because all of those had been deregulated just for PMS so so much money was be borrowed and stolen in the name of subsidy that is why all the candidates who have a little idea or even if they don't have who have people who have ideas around them told them to withdraw I am on record in a a a program organized at Mam Center with Okoji Weller as finance minister and >> Sani Sani Deano as CBN governor. I Adam I joined them there is remove my comrade who who succeeded me as general secretary of test workers union I said I now support the withdrawal of subsidy I was still in APC had it reformed I said I support it because it is now sless for organized labor to use their power to shield the criminals I don't know how not to call people is paid by by his proper name. Criminals in who who are stealing money in NPC and they just uh balance the book by reference to subsidy. We no longer should provide cover for them. In any event, they have deregulated the one that powered the mass transit diesel kerosene that poor people use in the villages to protect our environment to protect and discourage thief felon or trees to cook with firewood. It's already deregulated. So why should we provide cover for those who want to steal the name of subsidy to take as much as 6 7 8 trillion in a year? that is no longer pathetic. I am on record. I say so Google doesn't forget. Check what I said on that occasions spoke.

[00:52:43]KJ Weller spoke you know I was not exactly of a fan of KJ Weller because I have my views about his choice of economic policies and Sanusi and talking about Sanusi you remember that Sanusi as governor of central bank raised alarm about the the numbers of revenue accuring to NPC that were not remitted >> to the federation account. So this story about in fact this take us back about NPC having a tradition of not accounting is as old as the Nigerian nation. In fact I will play to you when I finish the interview the comment part of the campaign agenda of MK Abola what he said he will do about NPC. the NPC has become a huge house of fraud not in many ways he said that and the measures he will take to make NNPC accountable so this tradition >> this tradition of a parasa feeling that is above everybody because when you the problem with some Nigerians I emphasize some is that when they assume position of power and they begin to loot and they loot huge sums of money they become bigger than the Nigerian state they have enough resources to compromise all the instruments of of checks and balances.

[00:54:05]>> But but uh senator in all of these policies >> now back to your question. So I will ask you >> will you vote against Inubu for withdraw subsidy?

[00:54:14]>> You want the subsidy to return sh I'm asking you now not >> what about insecurity what one by one get away with are the lives of Nigerians to the finest tradition of journalism.

[00:54:26]But but the question is senator >> I answer them one by one >> whether or not you and senator sham if you were CNC president would you be giving you the answer you can't tell me ask me 10 questions at the same time >> it's the same question sir >> stick to your tradition you are wearing the >> same question >> no it's not the same question it's not yes or no >> would you as Adam if you as would you protest against this government if you were see NS president >> you don't protest without reason >> so you think >> protest is only you protest for specific reason. Number two, so I ask you will I be protesting now against the withdrawal of subsidy? I will not protest because that's why I reminded you that I have supported the withdrawal. So I cannot protest against a man who had the courage to do what other people couldn't do. Number two, this major massive investment in infrastructure, Governor Diri of Bay State said the minorities the nation because they live around coastal areas under a Nigeria highly respected statement who has passed away now Edw leaders wrote during the military that they should construct the coastal road because it enhance the community and the non-jaws who live around the coastal area. Nobody even gave them acknowledgement and now President Tinu is doing it. So Shu I will vote against that decision. I will support it. Number three, uh I don't know your family background, but for people like me, I couldn't go directly to university because my parents even had difficulties pay my school fee for secondary school. And now you have a president that has introduced uh student loan. Will you vote against it? Of course, I will vote for it.

[00:56:25]Senator number four, now you talk of security.

[00:56:30]The security or insecurity started under this government. Can you put your hand in the Bible? Wait.

[00:56:37]>> Can you put your hand in the Bible and say that president Ba Metu is not doing enough on security? Is he doing enough?

[00:56:44]>> Is he handling it well?

[00:56:45]>> Pardon?

[00:56:46]>> Is he handling it well? Because there are those who are complaining.

[00:56:49]>> So if you were the president, how will you handle it?

[00:56:52]>> I'm not a president. He's the one who promised me to the one who promised that he will keep Nigeria safe.

[00:56:58]>> He promised. He didn't say he will perform magic.

[00:57:01]>> So when you chief and you are not able to do it, is that not the >> He's able to do it. He's able to do it.

[00:57:06]Sh you mustn't make statement that suggests as though those officers and men those commanders who have been killed in in various part of the country particularly in the northeast in Maduguri defending the territorial integrity of Nigeria and safeguarded the life of Nigerian property and human lives. those who die confronted these notorious criminals that there not be something now what is the evidence of Mr. president's concern about insecurity.

[00:57:41]There's no better view than to look at the additional budgetary allocation. I can tell you for a fact that the first appropriation the national assembly considered by way of a supplementary budget upon the assumption of office of President Bala Metinu was to provide more money to the Nigerian armed forces.

[00:58:06]And look, I challenge you to look at the numbers what he had provided even in 2026 budget, what he provided in 2025 budget and relate it to what previous government budgeted and ask yourself the question was he budgeted this money uh for fun. No, it was a reflection and when he says he declared state of emergency, you think on a good day that is the kind of thing he want to say. All of these points to his commitment to deal with insecurity. The fact that it has not disappeared completely but he know that you want to see those who have line up now let's look at their record with regards to security beginning with uh Abubaka vice president from the northeast and started from the northeast.

[00:59:00]Abubaka could not even go to Maiduguri.

[00:59:04]We had to go with ACN because they were afraid of Bukaram.

[00:59:09]I was a member of the National Economic Council or National Council of States when the former president Good Jonathan requested that we postpone national elections by two months. In fact, he wanted three months because he reported to us that about 28 or more local government were hosting foreign flags and so we can't conduct election and leave a whole state or half of a state out of the process and the records are there that this was postponed. The election was postponed by two months even though he asked for three.

[00:59:54]other PDP Abuja came under attack.

[00:59:57]>> Are you saying that security has improved in Nigeria? Is that your Are you saying security has improved in Nigerian?

[01:00:04]>> I'm lecturing you if you like me to use that word and I don't want really want to say so. But if you keep asking, I will say sometimes you can invest all your efforts and yet your desired outcome you don't get it. Even as a law student, I don't know your scores. Spend all your night taking coffee to remain awake to read and to try to understand the lecture that were delivered in the afternoon or any other book that you were advised to read and yet you go for the election, you go for the uh exam on examination day, you score 40 or 45% or 50%.

[01:00:47]Meanwhile, your intention was to have a first class to score 80%. Is that because you were not serious? Now you are dealing with a a particular issue that has both local and international dimension.

[01:01:03]As part of President Ba Metinu's commitment to fighting in security, he has had to persuade America and I believe successfully for Washington to agree to support Abuja to deploy men to provide additional intelligence or whatever to assist us to deal with this issue of insecurity. Do you think it's a child play for a president to a government to approach another government to say look I have a problem and I I I need you I need your assistance. So you can't even blame him for not try to even seek help beyond Nigeria and because the problem has not completely disappeared. It would be very unfair to the memory of those who have died and I think recently the chief of staff made a point which people like you who are in the media should take into account that by time you drop a bomb the bomb doesn't discriminate between the iss whether knowingly or knowingly are living with them and then it is you the media will be shouting oh so so many innocent people have been killed we have to do a quiry how Do you manage this may well be living around your neighborhood?

[01:02:17]You do not know >> Senator.

[01:02:18]>> So please, >> yeah, >> I will vote for President Dubu because I have seen the effort.

[01:02:24]>> Additionally, let me ask you, sh will you vote for anybody who says he will return dual exchange rate. President has abolished dual exchange rate so that nobody make money by taking official rate from CBN and taking it to Aboki and converting it at so-al par rate or even what they call black market but there's nothing black about that market it is mind by who knows who >> the registered uh is it what do you call them now BDC's or so on >> now president has come and eliminated that so today on your TV you can see the transparency the daily exchange change rate. We all can see it.

[01:03:04]>> What you get is what I get is what your chairman will get is what my MD, my senior president will get.

[01:03:09]>> Senator, >> so are you going to return that >> senator?

[01:03:12]>> I will vote for Tinu to continue with that.

[01:03:14]>> All right.

[01:03:15]>> And when you are talking the way you do, I ask you >> before you get to this level, you got here in 3 years.

[01:03:26]You thought that really if we don't reduce issues of microeconomic management and social re-engineering to issues of magician you really believe that if you only you have idea of the state of decay and the complicated economic microeconomic environment that this president inherited massive financial abuses of thinkion that you will solve all all this problem in 3 years >> you think it's not possible he needs more Nigerians research knows that even in medicine you don't even change the surgeon. That's why doctors tend to work long hours. They want to monitor the patients and see to his recovery. And so that's why they don't do the typical 8 hours and close. They want to see through the management of the patient or they senator we need to.

[01:04:13]>> So I will vote for Tinubu to continue.

[01:04:16]>> Yeah.

[01:04:18]>> With the reforms he has carried out.

[01:04:19]Because in Nigeria typically you say you can't be doing the same old thing and expect different result.

[01:04:25]are choosing to reform so that we don't do things the old way.

[01:04:28]>> All right, Senator, >> but the way you do things will not go without some price.

[01:04:32]>> I hope we are able to wrap up in just one minute.

[01:04:36]>> My my my final question to you and I wish that we could do this in one minute. You have repeatedly dismissed opposition prospect the Peter Obese of this world, the Atu Abubakas of this world, the good luck Jonathans of this world. If Tonobu loses in 2027, would you think that that would it come to you as a surprise beaten by any of these persons?

[01:05:01]What would you be marketing?

[01:05:03]It will be >> now now, now I have said to you and I recommend this to you.

[01:05:12]I think Abubaka ask him what he's going to do differently.

[01:05:18]Who did you mention? Peter Obi >> Peter Obi asked Peter Obi. Peter Obi has no reputation unfortunately and I will speak to it. You cannot take him by his word. First he said he will never leave AA because Abga as a political party to him and he produced him as a governor.

[01:05:39]He he completed his tenure. He left Abga and went to the extreme of Abga because the logic of Ajuku was not to join a party who he believed would be controlled by those he had sorted to severe relationship with. Obi went there because he wanted to be vice president and he became one and he was defeated rather stay back and strategize Obi ported and joined the Labour party another extreme because he doesn't want to do any primaries. Labour party handed over the ticket to him on a platter of gold. He got according to him 8 million votes.

[01:06:14]Okay. What will some common sense prescribe that you manage that platform invest in it deal with all the internet challenges because there is no system. I can call myself an expert in a voluntary association management. Okay. Political party is a voluntary association.

[01:06:32]Membership is voluntary. You can join.

[01:06:35]you can withdraw now. He couldn't manage it. He want where food is ready. He left the labor party. His vice president running mate um that daddy who is I mean whatever you want to say that has shown that he can create manage the situation. He's not a trader. He's not a short-term turnaround businessman. He's buil one of the most reputable university in Nigeria today the beige university. He said he told Obi sir let us fix this Labor party issue. The man said no I'm not here to feed party. I want to fix Nigeria. But should know that the Nigerian consu does not allow individual. It's a party. It's a collective.

[01:07:18]And so he left Labor Party to go and look for where food is ready. He went to ADC.

[01:07:23]They terminated the leadership of ADC which they met there and forcefully took over the leadership because they are big men and women and when they said that there will be primary because he doesn't want to go through the first stage of election he left there to go and join NDC you have already seen the tension between Obi and the proprietor of of NDC my very dear friend uh former governor and now senator Saraki Dixon and look at the interview he granted how they were having people coming to join the party before but now they behaving as if bringing those people and should talk to his followers can't already see early warning signals so if you cannot manage a room allocate a student room to you and you can't keep it clean you come in you find that the bed sheet and the toilet is leaking and so on. You can't fix it. Then you tell me you are going to be running a real estate with several buildings called Nigeria. How can you?

[01:08:31]>> You can't manage a bulat can win in 2027.

[01:08:34]>> He will win.

[01:08:35]>> How?

[01:08:36]>> Because Nigerians are sensible. Forget about some of the elites who are compromised.

[01:08:41]Some elite are compromised for one way or the other. But Nigerians know that these elites always say so. That's why I ask you ask this any of them will they return subsidy?

[01:08:52]return rate.

[01:08:53]>> If loses in 2027, >> would they terminate the massive that is going on?

[01:08:58]>> If Tunibu loses in, >> would you be surprised?

[01:09:02]>> You will not lose.

[01:09:04]>> You are optimistic.

[01:09:06]The people can will decide political optimist. Nigerians know the difference between liars who are perfect the act of manipulated t TV tubes and podcasts to tell Nigerians are suffering. Niger they are not saying what did wrongly. That's why I'm asking you some of these key policy changes reviewing the tax base so that those who make money from Nigeria economy should also pay taxes so that we can provide for the others. Do they want to review the tax policy? What is it? So we don't have to see we can excuse those who are not educated. When people say oh because you are hungry oh because you are poor oh we are not delivered so so China did dises they never speak to say look if I was president the last thing I hear from is that he would have visited plateau or benui. All right. You believe Shu from your heart of heart that paying cordless visit is all that we require to change the security.

[01:10:13]>> Then they say oh he's not sensitive given the mood of the nation. He said so so or he travel so so you believe that this is really at the heart of our insecurity insecurity started order president vice president Abuaka.

[01:10:30]Now go back to Anabra state and play back and I'm giving you this as an assignment. I will pay for the research.

[01:10:39]What were the four first major decisions that Governor Obiano took when he succeeded to be as governor of anra state? We saw the visuals where Governor Biano was bringing down using bulldozer.

[01:10:53]I think he started it using bulldozer to bring out the houses of kidnappers and so-called bakasi boys that turned to got out of control and Peter Obi could not fix security in Anabra state. He took the intervention of Governor Biano who took over from him to begin to destroy the properties of those who he believe have used their acruas for kidnapping where wife kidnap husband husband kidnap wife and ask the children to bring bunny. He got to that level >> and governor be as there was I was a governor then my state was safer than an amra be. So ifu fix an amra state if he couldn't fix bakasi boys and bakasi boys got out of control and he took intervention of to now intervene you think that is a guy who will have the courage look at the rest they talking about h we should do do profiling fine but what did he say what should we be doing everybody knows that are not perfect but a statesman must provide answers say this man is driving left if I get a ticket I will drive right That's a specific choice. So you as a voter will say okay I think I like right hand driving not left hand.

[01:12:11]>> There has to be specific >> new tools that they will bring. We haven't had other than this buzz word do the right thing. What is the right thing?

[01:12:20]>> What is the left thing?

[01:12:21]>> Senator >> so will win hands down at this we not even get the kind of vote they got before. Senator, many thanks for talking to us on the Macon podcast always even though you interrogate me as if [laughter] you're a terrorist.

[01:12:36]>> Well, you're up to the task. Thank you so much indeed.

[01:12:38]>> But you know I'm not growing younger.

[01:12:40][laughter] >> Thank you.

[01:12:41]>> Thank you so much indeed. Senator Adams Usha Malay's conversation with us on the M podcast and I know that every part of this conversation is something that you can share. You can also tell your friends and your neighbors something up on the mic on podcast about this conversation on the state of the nation.

[01:12:59]But thanks so much everyone for watching. I'm Sha Kim. Bye for now.

[01:13:03]>> Thank you for joining us on this edition of Mike on podcast with Shyon Kimaloy.

[01:13:09]Mike on podcast for the independent mind.