Rising Opposition: Is Kenya Kwanza Jittered? | Kiruga Thuku

[00:00:02]studio giggling. Well, for this um until 10:00, we have with us a very vocal member of UDA and he's also part of the national executive uh committee >> uh of UDA, Kiruga Thuku and uh you know it's it's it's Monday and there's a lot that happened over the weekend uh when it comes to the sasa of this country seeing um you know others mobilizing Kika that's the Linda Moni faction we had uh Ri who was all the way in western Kenya um again uh speaking matters politics and we're seeing how the opposition outfit is shifting and shaping up uh much as you know we had CS here who said be um >> be aware that this administration will still be there come next year and I'm pretty sure that is what our guest will be reiterating but even as we just look at the political landscape how about we look at uh what happened in Tika yesterday we [snorts] had Sifuna, we had Faith Oambo on the ground. We had CIA governor, that's James Orango, we had Kangata joining the Linda Moni faction and also just get to hear from Riy all the way in western Kenya as you were speaking to the Luya community there on matters opposition and politics.

[00:01:33]61.

[00:01:55]>> [groaning] >> This is the happiest day of my life.

[00:01:59]This is the happiest day of my life. I have come to think of rallies.

[00:02:16]>> [music and singing] >> support.

[00:02:39]>> [cheering] >> I only want a better Kenya. A better One job.

[00:03:24]>> [laughter] [screaming] >> up to start working for the workers.

[00:03:56]Well, quite the rally there in what we need to be looking at and we have our guest here at groundant >> before we get into the day's conversation and even as you give us reactions to what you saw in thika.

[00:04:12]We'll start with the quote of the day and today's quote is courtesy of a sineagaliz economist, philosopher, novelist and physician known as Feluin Sar. The quote reads, "To imagine a different future, you must first be honest about the present." How does that speak to you?

[00:04:30]>> Yeah. Uh that's And um maybe allow me to first say thank you very much for this invitation.

[00:04:40]And uh good morning viewers.

[00:04:43]Um, and starting with what you've just quoted, >> you know, we need to come to terms with the realities of the day >> because you can see people are just trying to paint a very negative picture.

[00:05:04]>> Of course, we have the challenges. It's good that you have just hosted the CS energy here and he he has explained to you people where for example like the f crisis where the problem is coming in from uh you see it's not actually a problem about just the Kenyan government.

[00:05:23]Many governments in the world have been facing this problem.

[00:05:28]>> And so I I think we need to come to terms with the current situation and you know the current reality of the future of of the current you know because it portates either a positive or a negative future.

[00:05:49]>> Um I've seen those clips you've put here. Um you know some of us have worked in the past with those guys.

[00:05:58]For example, myself and our SG honorable Hassan have in the past we worked with honorable James >> and uh I don't see anything quite different from what we you you know those rallying cause back then are just what uh we just see even today.

[00:06:22]But um the truth is um that we have a working government as a party you know and as the neck of the party >> our major duty is to support our party leader and his deputy and the entire party system. You know now we are the governing party to accomplish and to execute our manifesto all those things we promised to Kenyans.

[00:06:54]Of course, we have to accept there have been challenges but uh the president, our party, our government have been on top of the game and um you see one thing that we all need to appreciate you know these participation guys you know it's like an learning alone they will think they are the best they will think they number one >> as a government as a We are very busy >> executing various developments across the country. You see, so when the time for now the real competition comes, you see in fact these guys will claim they have been leaked as they are used to.

[00:07:41]And if you want to know where our party starts, >> you know, in the little you know political arena in this country.

[00:07:53]Look at all those bi-elections we have had.

[00:07:58]How many have UDA lost?

[00:08:01]Very few. UDA has been scooping almost every direction including in Kenya itself in B >> and they were telling us oh here in B I don't know they give very sweet stories in every situation when you listen to them in fact they can tell you the world is coming to an end you know this evening and you believe them >> because they really paint very nice stories but the thing is >> you've seen our party leader who is the president of this country if he's not dwelling you know making development to us across the country and I I think all of us agree even you guys agree >> we have one of the most hardworking presidents in the world today if he's not working alone this country he's out there because you know mashia's people want to say oh he's traveling a lot he's a chief Kenyan diplomat The president is the number one Kenyan diplomat and he's marketing our country very positively. He's inking one deal after the other in the following nations he's visiting and to quote his words he's not going to these visits for >> he's actually he's doing his work. The thing that um before Marian comes in the thing that I'll be very clear is we should not applaud someone for doing their job. If anything, we should be asking if at all they're doing it properly and doing everything that is required of them which we'll come to in our conversation.

[00:09:39]>> Yeah, we will actually um come to that.

[00:09:42]Uh where do I begin? I wanted to ask about this I want to call them formations I guess that are emerging from from the United opposition and whether or not they like you said you know what they're flowery they're this that you know it's all very outwardlooking but I want to zero in on Governor Kangata who just joined Linda Monanchi yesterday well officially at least as far as we know and you know what He said, "Mimi, I'm after development." What is Governor Kangata seeing differently from you? And I want to say because you're both Mount Kenya politicians. Um, whoa is what I'm saying. Because in my interpretation, Governor Kangata has been weighing his options. [music] The last time we had him here, which was less than two months ago, he was very non-committal on what side he stands on.

[00:10:39]But I you that tells you that someone was weighing their options trying to see where the people are swaying >> and from his decision it seems that the people in at least his constituency of Muranga are seeing one term. So he's decided he is one part of that camp.

[00:10:55]>> So what are you seeing different from governor Kangata? You know one thing we need to appreciate as a leader you are not supposed to take people where they want to go. You are supposed to take people >> where they are supposed to be. And that means as a leader >> Mhm. You have a godgiven duty to sit down with your people and tell them look here people I know in your opinion you would want us to move to this direction >> but from where I see it from where you have sent me as your leader if we take that route >> it may not be the best because of 1 2 3 4 and you expl explain to them. And some of us >> who have chosen to work with President William R, >> who have chosen to work with his government >> are doing exactly that.

[00:12:02]>> But you see that is very problematic, very very problematic because you come and speak to the people and represent the people because the people have they they have their needs, they have their wants and they want representation that is going to make sure that their needs and wants are met. So when you decide to take that away from them, they say we want to head in this way which is having economic freedom, having enough money for us to take care of our families, having proper healthcare, having x y and zed, right? Speaking the voice of the people, and then you go on and decide, no, my vision is the one that is superior to yours, and therefore I am going to lead you where you're supposed to be because I can dream better than you. I can I can represent your needs better than you are representing them for yourself. I'm finding that to be very problematic.

[00:12:51]>> Right. I'm literally you're literally an elected representative of the people.

[00:12:57]>> Well, that is very problematic.

[00:12:58]>> No, look here. Um personally, I was first elected an official of a political party >> at the age of 19.

[00:13:12]I I guess at the age of 19 both of you are still in classrooms. [laughter] I was elected as a Democratic party official.

[00:13:20]>> Mhm.

[00:13:21]>> And I worked very closely um with Mikbaki.

[00:13:27]I was very youthful and I learned a lot of things from this gentleman >> and one of them is to start read as long as you know the direction you are leading the people to >> is the correct one look even in the Bible >> Mhm.

[00:13:48]>> God would set prophets >> he would not tell them if you go there and talk with the people and they refuse then you should follow them. No, you should tell them and give them the direction. Now I wanted to >> prophets are appointed, leaders are elected.

[00:14:02]>> Yes, I'm elected.

[00:14:03]>> And so even more >> not even look here.

[00:14:09]>> Even I'm elected by the people.

[00:14:11]>> Correct.

[00:14:12]>> Why the reason why I even have you know a greater duty to ensure I don't misread these people.

[00:14:21]Um I was elected on a UDA ticket and I normally tell our people there you know their vote was followed by the by blessings because at our county assembly I'm the chairperson of implementation which means everything discussed or everything discussed by the assembly and needs implementation by the county government. I lead in following that up.

[00:14:46]Then our party gave me the privilege of being the chair of the UDMC's caucus >> and a member of the party neck and you see all of us myself the likes of GI the likes of and very many other people we all of us were there in this government >> you see when an impeachment happens in this Mhm.

[00:15:16]>> Whether governor or who for whatever position people ask to court, >> they tell the court and you have seen in every impeachment that have taken place.

[00:15:24]>> Oh the court please stop this impeachment. Stop my removal from office for one to three reasons. Now I'm here >> and this this is what I want our people to see. I have a position.

[00:15:37]>> I earned through my hard work campaigning for our party.

[00:15:42]Now for some reason there has been a fallout. So people are going to courts to safeguard their positions yet I'm expected >> the position God has given me and I'm using to influence policy I'm using to influence development I was expected to leave it. No, what I've been telling our people for example in our manifesto we have we talk about health issues from where I come from we had a very problematic relationship between the the then annex alth you know and the national government by and the national government then so now what we did we requested the president we have In requesting for this hospital to be made a level six hospital the president asented it is now level six and through our connection with the government >> we are influencing a lot of things there we have combined with the other leaders this facility now it's undergoing even a further construction of another story worth 1 billion shillings we are going there when people get into problems we are you know we go to government offices to the Ministry of Health. We have a problem here. We have a problem here.

[00:17:05][snorts] Now, you've talked about people getting wealthy. Yes, people want to get wealth. Now, for example, last week through the help of the agriculture minister.

[00:17:16]>> But before you go into agriculture, let me hang on that. um OA uh the K&H annex at OAI now going into a level six is a wonderful thing for the people of OA and for the nation at large and for our healthcare system.

[00:17:32]>> Uh do you ever ask yourself how many >> either K&H annexes or level fives need to be turned into a level six across the country and how many of those people may not be friendly with the government. So then their level five and six I mean their level five is not becoming a level six or they're not getting >> Yeah. No, it's it is it's [laughter] it's a fair question. Yes.

[00:17:55]>> Because we operate as if uh development is a favor which it's not.

[00:18:01]>> It is not.

[00:18:02]>> It's a guaranteed right for people. So it's nice that the people of Aaya have a level six. It's a wonderful thing for for our healthare system. But what happens to every other place across the country that requires a level six but doesn't have one? Look here you know I've just given the level six as an example >> in fact in in our area >> um for example in that constituency you are talking about and it's just good to confirm that I'll be learning there as a member of parliament in the next election ticket >> we have in every word that is chinga mahiga and kha >> upcoming markets we have Mobaki stadium that is upcoming in itself. all the roads you know we have a lot of roads there that had stalled now the contractors are back there and those those ones that they have not come back you know they are under the procurement they undergoing procurement so what I mean is this >> it's a matter of choice and I ask myself do I want to wake up >> go out there shouting one time you even forget the common date you are given by the people. You just want to go out there, you are shouting, the issue is this and you look very keenly >> and this is what we have been telling our colleagues >> after you do all that shouting what are you bringing home to the people and instead of that we've decided whatever the consequences will be Because the president who is our party leader his agenda is development of this nation because his agenda even in that m Kenya region he's been calling us for meetings he've been enquiring you are the leaders there kindly bring the development agenda of the wanchi so that it can be uptaken by the government but our friends there they just want to shouting shouting shouting and that is the If as a leader you just want to go out there shouting shouting shouting then at the end of the day the government is not working. It is not a government that is not working. It is you as a leader who has failed.

[00:20:32]Go to government offices say my our road here is not working our hospital here is not working. The president cannot be any everywhere. He's not a miracle worker.

[00:20:42]It is us who has been given the mandate to lead by the people who have to take.

[00:20:48]That is why we have how many constituencies? 290.

[00:20:52]>> Every constituency have a member of parliament. They don't say because we have a president we will not have an MP.

[00:20:59]We have over 2,000 MCAs. They don't say because we have a president we cannot have an MCA. We have senators. We have women. Before you start shouting all this has not been done. What are you doing for your people? And I want to challenge leaders.

[00:21:15]>> You are supposed to lobby for development for your people.

[00:21:21]>> Well, it is politics versus uh Kufua Kazi being on the ground and doing the work and you make a valid point, but there's also just a few extractions that I want to make from your argument and we'll come back and discuss that. This thing that we keep hearing uh all party members of UDA and those within Kenya Kwana government everything goes back to the president and that in itself [snorts] shows the executive having the say the ultimate say when it comes to either development on how matters should run yet there are institutions there are offices there are officers who've been elected and put in office to actually make sure that they work whether or not they're a member of UDA whether or not they're a member of Kenya Kwanza That's a conversation we'll be coming back to in the next half hour that we have Kirugatuku who's the UDA party national executive council member. We'll take a break. We'll be right back.

[00:22:14]Welcome to the final hour of fixing the nation with myself, Mariam Bishar, and Eric Lativ in absentia. Coming back to our conversation with uh Kirugatuku who's a UDA party national executive council member and we're just here you know touching base on matters politics to nonawanasa over the weekend they tend to be so busy up and down across the country and of course there's two factions here there is the Kenya Kwanza faction that is very adamant on saying that there's a re-election that's going to happen and in the next time development is going to continue in the country then we have the opposition faction that says And um I just want you to speak to that in terms of the boldness of the opposition and much of the public in saying that uh President R's re-election is just but a rumor. Um [snorts] are we are we as as not we but as Kenya Kwanza let me speak to you. Are we dismissing and rubbishing these claims because they don't have merit or because we are very very convinced and I know that's the line that KK has been using in terms of look at our development scorecard that is enough to get us in but is that enough for the monangi >> um like I said dear before you know challenges are always there >> for example the list challenge has been that challenge of well I don't want I don't need to go back there has explained so well here why we found ourselves there but um I want to agree you know there is a lot of unnecessary excitement in the opposition lungs and you know when you want to badmouth someone there is a lot you can use to badmouth someone oh miam she doesn't even own a vehicle I don't know she should be wearing brew instead of what if she you know you can criticize >> anything >> anything and you would have a lot of materials yeah >> because you would just need to look at someone and what they don't have instead and that's why we say count your blessings >> now if you look this have been the language of these guys even before all those bi-elections we have had they've been saying But I've given you something you cannot see that in all the bi-elections they come talking big they even moving with they you know doing all manner of drama >> but the UDA comes in calmly just like we have the old election here which by the way UD is very very very likely to win and we are giving it our best shot because what we are interested in is development we are not interested in the other shenanigans these guys keep bringing up and that's why I'm saying you know there is the big talk people engage in you remember even that time when we were young we were saying oh by the age of 30 35 five, I'll be a millionaire. I'll have done this. I would have done this.

[00:25:43]>> It's okay. You know, dreams are not bad.

[00:25:47]Imagine it's not bad. But what I'm telling you, what we are inviting Kenyans to do is to look beyond all this politicking because look, it's very very surprising. Beyond this ranering these guys beyond telling you they want to chase away President William R they have even they don't even have an of any development they are talking about but come to our side boss is there the president >> in every engagement I've had with the president since the last elections and even before post talks about development and that is why you fight he goes to western he talks development he goes to coast development he comes to mount Kenya region development he comes to east northeast development and that is how despite their pronunciations about I don't know winning by whole time >> ud will have even will have worn the hearts of the people who are the owners of the votes even before those timelines these guys are giving us because any government it's about addressing the challenges facing the people. You look I've told you how I start how I started in matters of leadership. I've seen Muay Baki's government had been inside there supporting you know being an a party official. I've seen Uhuru Kenyata's government. I was one of the campaigners for that government and I've now I'm privileged. I'm even serving under President William Rut's government and what I can say is that the president means well we will definitely support him on his development agenda and I'm telling you even in that Kenya region people are saying well what we need is development because even in the first place the reason why people go to elect government it is in order for that government it is not to eliminate challenges per se because they always be there.

[00:28:06]But people go to elections to elect a government to work for them to address the challenges facing them. And truth be told, much as we have been having challenges, the government have really tried to come up with proper solutions >> and that is the way we shall continue.

[00:28:27]Then when we come to now campaigning proper you know we are busy working >> and people will you see for example now when President Uhuru Kata retired the this road from Keno to N >> Marua it was like 40 30% done now the government the current government has done that route at Marua we have one of the best interch ages in this country.

[00:28:58]And then listen, we agreed with the government that highway now will not move from Mara to Shaka Nuki. That road will go to town because you know we we we agreed with the government if it went through the Shaka route. It would have struggled near town out of life. Now that road will go to near town then join the route you know in in other destinations you know ahead there. So the thing is this >> people have a choice you know someone can say my glass is half full another half empty.

[00:29:42]>> [clears throat] >> If if the choice of the people of uh Shinga [music] and OA where you also aspire to be MP where you are a member of county assembly if they say their choice is anyone other than President R.

[00:29:57]What do you say? Mhm.

[00:29:58]>> You know the good thing is I not only lead the people of the place I come from many and most of them are my friends >> and what have happened is before any major political decisions we normally sit we listen to each other >> and I've been talking to our people >> I've you know they'll tell me >> I'll tell them for example they know earlier this The president came to my ward.

[00:30:29]>> Yeah.

[00:30:30]>> And when he came there, I brought there a very sick child.

[00:30:34]>> The president assisted us. I can count over 50 instances where I have directly involved the president and he has been of help to our people. So the thing is this I know what you want to I wonder where do you want to go even in an earlier in >> an easy question. if something changes, you know, you said you're listening to them and you've been in conversation with them, you know, and you you know their needs. If they change their minds for whatever reason, whether it's a miraculous overnight change or whether it's actually what's bubbling underneath right now, what would your stand be?

[00:31:07]>> My stand is this and it will not change.

[00:31:10]Mhm.

[00:31:10]>> Mhm.

[00:31:11]me and my our people >> our friends and we will continue engaging and I'll prove to them because you know even if you go to a case >> you are given an opportunity convince us on why we should follow this direction or another politics >> it's a matter it's a game of convincing people >> or convincing each other if I may say >> I think you're missing the the the job description there You're an elected representative.

[00:31:42]>> Yes, I am.

[00:31:43]>> Represent oversight, legislate, and >> represent.

[00:31:48]>> That represent part underline. So, it doesn't matter whether >> you think you know best.

[00:31:56]>> Essentially, what >> is in law is that you represent the people of Shinga and in future maybe you'll get to represent OIa as a constituency. So what they say goes >> and and look here what what am I supposed to where where am I supposed to represent them >> in parliament? Yes. Exactly.

[00:32:16]>> In your county assembly.

[00:32:18]>> Exactly. And I'm doing exactly that and that is even why last week >> I even had questions there at the assembly >> asking about why the hiring of you know various caders of uh you know health uh you know in education sector >> but there is one thing and I can see where you are driving to I'm saying [music] I have a godgiven duty you know when you become a leader >> you have a greater duty correct >> of coming speaking with your people >> of trying to talk with them >> and you agree >> we are going to follow this direction instead of this other one and let me give you a very practical example let me let me give you one example >> I'll ch can I I'll even challenge I'm not saying it is not a god-given duty I'm saying that is escapism it is the people who have given you the mandate are the people of Shinga when you say it's god-given it's almost like you're removing >> the the people you can't I cannot >> look here let me let me give you a very let me give you a very practical example >> a convincing game you really believed that it is them who have put you in power >> they are they are the one it's number one God number two them >> let me give you a practical example during the last general elections you know we in UDA were like literally sweeping everywhere >> but look someone like my friend >> honorable Someone like my friend the late one and a few other guys >> defied that wave >> and they got elected. You see, I'm telling you, you [music] know, you've heard our people like saying, "Oh, we wish we knew this. Oh, we wish we knew this other." And I'm saying as a leader, >> I'm a leader because my people elected me.

[00:34:14]>> Correct?

[00:34:15]>> And as their leader, >> I have to come plead with them. I'm not coming there to chase them for them or or or to them. I come I tell them where you sent me >> I've seen this I've seen this other I've seen this other and it is in our best interest because you know in politics it is just about you know you place yourself in the best strategic position for example >> for example in the current political setup >> anyone who loves the truth will tell you the best strategic place to be is in government and that is why you have seen even those people we were competing with in the last elections because they know the advantage of being in government they have come here they've done negotiations with the government like these Kbaki used to advocate he used to advocate the power of negotiations and now they in government yet someone comes here and is telling me no these people we led into this government we should now leave the government to other people to benefit with our no I cannot do that I would rather I even don't win any seats in the future but I must stay put into this government we campaigned for and won >> and through which we are bringing development to our people >> so you leverage you leverage whatever hand you have at the moment which is again matters politics and uh the leveraging and the benefit of being inside government or not I think is problematic in its own way because then that means there's no disscent there's no opposing views that if you happen to counter anything that government within reason and it's not just countering for no reason then that becomes a problem and I want to go back again on this term of being appointed by God and elected I want to focus on that and zoom out a little bit >> because you're here in capacity of a UDA rep >> yes >> and I'm actually very curious to know whether that is a doctrine within UDA because it's something that we've had the president say time and time and again that I this is a god-given duty for me to lead this country which fair again where when it comes to invoking the name of God is something that a lot of times we're just like yeah leave it to be we're a Christian nation but is it a doctrine that's within UDA that that becomes a resounding thing that we hear from UDA appointed officials and elected officials within UDA that I've been appointed by God and therefore I know that which I should do for you and not so much then you invalidate the will of the people >> again very problematic discourse but I don't want us to leave that is it a doctrine within you [laughter] >> what you know faith is very personal >> and um what I would want to tell you we normally say service to the people is service to God almighty and what we mean you know when we exert God and he press in whatever we do >> um for example in the world that I currently represent >> in the entire multi-arty you know period I'm the first person I'm the first leader to be reelected Yeah.

[00:37:52]>> And um maybe through our blinging, you know, as we grew, we came to believe because that is normally where I personally come from that um >> if we get an opportunity to serve, we are not only serving the people but serving God because you know at the end of the day you anchor your service >> to humanity into some you know superior yeah and that is good. So it is not about a doctrine or what have you but you know even most of the lies you hear from politics you know they are lying they insulting each other some even using very vulgar language and you ask yourself >> is that exactly >> is that exactly what God would want me to be doing. So the thing is this >> you know in this world everyone have a few >> Mhm.

[00:39:03]>> of why they were created.

[00:39:05]>> Mhm.

[00:39:06]>> And some of us believe you know God created us here you know to dignify and you know exert his name.

[00:39:19]>> Mh. And so in everything we want to do right >> and and you have examples in the Bible where people would want to be doing one thing but maybe the will of God will be on another one. So I don't want to see that it's a doctrine you know that we've been fed by anyone.

[00:39:39]>> Okay.

[00:39:40]>> It's just individual belief. Mhm.

[00:39:43][snorts] >> Fortunately, it seems mine anchors well very well with that of my party >> of the president. Yeah. [laughter] >> Uh as we wrap up the conversation, I wanted to know this formations that are happening within the United opposition or Linda Monanchi or whatever you call it.

[00:40:00]>> What changes are happening within UDA to counter these new formations? Whether it's the addition or the entrance of uh Governor Kangata, former LSK president uh Faith Oambo and so on and so forth.

[00:40:15]what's happening within UDA to counter >> you know our focus >> as the party >> have remained one and this is you know the vision carrier >> Mhm.

[00:40:29]>> of our parties the party leader >> Mhm.

[00:40:32]you know helped with by the supported by the deputy party leader and all of us >> and our goal because our leader says we should develop this country. We were given the mandate to execute our manifesto and so development is our key word.

[00:40:57]So we we don't focus >> on individuals. Even when I say I want to become an MP, it's not about fighting the current MP or something like that.

[00:41:06]No, I respect him [clears throat] very much.

[00:41:08]>> It's not you, you know, as a leader, if you focus on individuals, >> you fail. So our focus for now and if you ask me as a party official, my focus and the collective focus of all of us in the party >> is to support our party leader in executing the various developments across the nation and that is what we shall continue doing >> and we hope as very many people will see this and they will keep coming. They've been coming. Yeah. and they will keep coming >> and then when campaigns come we shall campaign on the platform of the development we shall have been able to achieve for Kenyans. We shall appreciate well there here and there there could have been this short because of this this one or the other one >> but we shall be able to show Kenyans that indeed >> President William R deserves two terms >> to finish the good development or we have laid foundation on >> and I can tell you one thing if President Moy Kbaki had gone for one term >> we would have been some of the greatest losers in this country. But when Muz Kaki came in for the second term, the people over there know most of the road networks that were done were done, you know, at that juncture and which makes me you allow me to digress a little >> of late and that is why I'm telling you it is even you know you even feel you wouldn't want even to go to that opposition side >> there like there was this strike about the fuel increase which was being caused by the upheavalss in the Middle East.

[00:43:01]>> You fight the people you would expect to think better.

[00:43:07]>> Mhm.

[00:43:08]>> They are the ones whenever there is a national issue, you know, there is a national upheaval, they are coming back there, especially in m Kenya region, they inciting and even paying our youth to go and light lit bonfires using, you know, old tires, using petrol. It's powered on those, you know, tires.

[00:43:31]>> And what this has been doing is that within weeks of that burning of tires on the on on our tama clothes, we get bored. Then the same same guys will come back and say the government is not working. It's not sealing our loop. It's not good. These guys are an allegation.

[00:43:49]>> Yeah, it's an allegation. Unless you can substantiate it. Yes, I can substantiate and say >> most of the incitement we have seen >> these things don't have fall from heaven >> during Mo back his tenure there was not a single fire that was lit anywhere you know that so what have been happening the guys they claiming they want to become our leaders >> they of course the ones who have been inciting these things and this is something that is coming from those oppositation sites and we know that for sure just the same So, now that you know that, >> what have you done about it? Have you gone to the DCI? I don't know to police station.

[00:44:29]>> Yes, we have. Yes. Yes, we have really complained to them. We have really complained to them because this is destruction of property. People are allowed.

[00:44:38]>> There's something that can back that up >> to say that you know what >> I know for a fact that this person was the one either arming people or funding them. No, you start, you know, let me tell you, you start the backward method.

[00:44:55]These are people here.

[00:44:56]>> They are liting bonfires. You left them.

[00:44:59]>> Mhm.

[00:44:59]>> Then you use them. They will lead you to the owner.

[00:45:04]>> You know who, >> of course, but you see.

[00:45:06]>> Mhm.

[00:45:07]>> You may know some, you know, you know, we have worked with these guys and we know how they operate. We know how they talk.

[00:45:13]>> So, >> you've worked with the goons or >> No, no, no, no. with these with these politicians. We've worked together in the past.

[00:45:20]>> So the problem is you may know you see something ah you know the way some so so and so talks this must be his work but now without that link of evidence >> that now becomes the challenge but what I'm saying is and we have requested our security officers on the ground >> once you find because the law allows you to pick it >> the road does not allow you to destroy our roads. So we have said and we have requested if there is picketing it's a big picketing you know no one interferes but if someone is destroying property if someone is destroying our roads >> you are less them because that is what the rule says then let them lead you to the person sponsoring them to do that >> but we need to call that out >> because it is so illogical It is so unnecessary.

[00:46:17]>> It is. I'm happy that you touched on that and I wish we had uh enough time to just speak to the goonism and what we are seeing because uh you're not saying anything different from what we've had the political class say which is alluding and throwing allegations at the opposition without naming names and that again is very problematic because you leave it to the people to assume who it is. It's very presumptive and um on top of that we are not seeing proper prosecution of these elements that are behind the funding of guns. Well, we were in conversation with Kiruga Tuku who's a UDA party NC member just looking at again matters Kenya Konza politics the opposition and what is happening.

[00:46:57]Thank you so much and karibana to fixing the nation again. We'll have you back.

[00:47:03]>> Thank you very much. God bless you.

[00:47:06]>> Thank you.

[00:47:08]All right, just to get some of your feedback as we get into um our news fixes for this hour. So, someone had asked uh ah honorable Kiruga knows he won't make it as Otai MP on a UDA ticket, but is writing on President Rut hoping to get a nomination. Okay. Um D'vori says it's high time we different differentiated sorry between leadership and politics. Uhhuh.

[00:47:35]Jimmy Quan says, "If it's God-given, then be a pastor." [laughter] Um, uhhuh. Another one from Habs dispensing. Uh, no, actually this is Davari saying, "Devolution is supposed to bring development, not when the president visits our hometown." Um, which is something that we've alluded to on this show time and time again. Uh, how can Kenyans judge success beyond campaign promises and political accusations? That's from Nelson Mandela and he says corruption remains the biggest threat to government performance. What measurable progress has Kenya Kwanza made in fighting corrupt corruption sorry and recovering public funds which these are some of the big questions that we continue to ask.

[00:48:19]>> Right.

[00:48:20]Well, getting on to something very interesting that is happening this week and that is Kenya hosting a very very big event. The world will be converging in Mombasa from tomorrow for the 11th edition of the our oceans conference which is happening for the first time on African soil. Now government scientists and the civil societies among other stakeholders will be deliberating on a shared commitment to secure a resilient, just and thriving ocean for generations to come. Now the forum will also showcase Kenya's efforts towards ensuring a sustainable growth of the blue economy and uh the impact on the livelihoods along the coast. We'll be hearing from the CS of the blue economy and mining that is Ali Hassan Joho and also the peers for the blue economy that's Betsy Jagi. Let's listen.

[00:49:16]It's a global conversation. It therefore means that the steps, the necessary steps they took to unlock the opportunities. But most critical the commitments that shall happen in this conference are huge.

[00:49:47]The opportunities that will come are enormous. The network that will be built here is great. From the time the conference uh was conceptualized and started, there has been more than 2,200 plus commitments.

[00:50:06]so many billions of dollars. We're expecting a continuation. But this time, the beauty about this whole discussion is that it is happening on an African soil for the first time ever.

[00:50:20]>> We have over 300 billion that is untapped in the Kenyan coast. Be it from port infrastructure, be it from maritime, be it from fisheries and aquaculture. That is one. So the opportunity is here. The opportunity is in Kenya. The opportunity is in the coastal communities. And these projects are the ones that we are going to present and have a conversation have and have deals with the private sector so that they can be able to invest in the Kenyan coast and in Kenya.

[00:50:48]That is PS Betsy Injagi of Blue Economy and before that was CS Hassan Jo of Blue Economy and Mining just speaking to the significance of this particular conference and Mariam and I will be down fixing the nation team uh down at the coast just bringing you all the updates from the conference and also just getting to speak to the people of Mombasa getting to understand how what is the contribution of the blue economy to our GDP what is the potential and what are the risks the dangers says, "Where do we need to invest more? Where do we need to protect more? Are the people down at the coast actually feeling the impact of being [snorts] in this huge huge economic area and zone?

[00:51:29]And do they feel very well represented when it comes to these conversations?"

[00:51:32]Because sometimes the conferences become shops.

[00:51:34]>> Yeah.

[00:51:35]>> Yeah. And then it's um people from everywhere across the world coming in to your city talking about you and your life something that you live every day [laughter] and they they they debate and they have high level meetings and da da da and outcomes and at at no point does someone come to talk to you or engage you or ask sincerely what would work for you. Correct. Because you're the one who's been coexisting with the dolphins since correct the beginning of time.

[00:52:02]>> You're the one who goes out to fish. are they having any input to these conversations because those are the people that we ought to be getting the information the data from. So from Thursday >> in another story that aired yesterday and this is some good news. A 26-year-old tech enthusiast is on a journey to alter biased narratives that uh are learned and the only individuals cap are learned and the because only because of AI intelligence being trained with only individual data. This follows the innovation of an AI model where users can interact with the model in their local dialects. Now over the years, artificial intelligence has evolved and this evolution has been received differently. Now it may spell doom to some careers while to others it is a sign of technological advancement.

[00:52:56]Rafael Camau he's aiming to transform different sectors and lighten the burden of communication. And uh the idea behind Raphael's of course move is to make AI as localized as possible. Have people interact with AI in a language they know. And I think uh a big part of the bias that we see with AI is what languages is uh it's trained with. So then of course it carries those and it's like okay if you the way we say here bitings or >> AI may understand how to translate ni it will translate every one of those but we understand what you mean when you say you need to train it right but let's listen into Rafael's basic uh invention I want to call it he's a tech enthusiast let's listen into what he's doing to localize AI >> the thing that really annoyed me is that I saw there was a bit of western bias in in the responses that we were getting.

[00:54:01]So I was deeply intrigued as to how we can have a localized AI. We have limited [music] data transformed into the digital form.

[00:54:15]So getting that was really a huge problem. So I had to use the available information that there is uh online and um basically so it took around roughly I can say a billion parameters so yeah of local data so when you say a billion okay it's still tiny compared to large language models that we have from observed data the accuracy of egglide when it comes comes to local languages tally is at around 78%.

[00:54:53]So it's it's still a good performance given it's a local model but still there's still room for improvement because um we have limited information.

[00:55:03]So with additional information [music] and extra training the model will be able to perform better.

[00:55:09]>> Um we do call ourselves a silicon savannah. I love when we are doing things that say silicon savannah for real. That's wonderful work from Rafael there and does give you a lot of hope as far as our tech ecosystem is concerned and of course uh in removing the biases to as little as we can the biases that exist within AI but that's really good news there >> absolutely and um >> you know Kenya continues to be such a hub when it comes to um these tech jobs and just as we've been discussing here hopefully we are able to come up with a framework that protects the people that work within that space >> and something that is progressive not reactive because we find ourselves again now back and forth in courts dealing with issues to do with uh you know proper representation of this group of people and I hope we're able to make the shift from being reactive to being more proactive.

[00:56:02]>> That's very true. Um on matters budgets we had uh Joim Simu here >> uh a week ago or pre-budget. Yes. And uh he was questioning one the the things indicated in the when it comes to debt.

[00:56:16]Yeah. And this is something that Jimmy Wigi who's a party leader of Safhina and uh we have uh Willie Sauteno uh his deputy who've really been at the forefront of calling out government when it comes to debt. Now the audience debt matter is going to be decided on the 25th of this month and just today Safhina party is going to address Kenya's 2026 27 debt budget. Safina party leader Jimmy is expected to address uh this budget having announced it as a debt budget driven by excessive borrowing. The party has since raised concerns over alleged audience debt, illegal borrowing and lack of transparency in government financing.

[00:56:52]Safhina is expected to present its alternative economic plan including major tax reforms and reduced cost of living measures. The party reiterates its stance against heavy debt servicing claiming it is severely straining Kenya's economy and businesses.

[00:57:07]>> Right.

[00:57:07]>> Um seen a lot of the opposition coming out. Mother Koya yesterday did say that she also before Colono Mosoka presented her alternative budget. We had um the wiper party leader come out with his alternative people's budget and now we have Safhina party coming out again with their alternative economic plan and um also just proposals around tax reforms which goes back to what we're discussing with CS Opio and I >> yes >> is if we have all of these smart people around who have alternatives >> to present and we're saying we are having a very inclusive government that will listen to just about anybody.

[00:57:50]Why are we not having a chat with these guys?

[00:57:53]>> Facts. Um anyway, to be fair, I I know as a government you can't listen to everybody. You also there'd be an overload of information, but what I get is there's key proposals here that have come from whether it's the Colono Musoka budget, it was called the the people's budget. the people's budget whether it's proposals whether it's Safina party asking about ODS debts the themes remain the same which is let's audit our debt which is let's reduce taxes on XYZ those are not >> crazy things again they're not things that are beyond the government's doing >> but um before we close the hour there's something we wanted to focus on from an editorial perspective and today state house will be hosting the Kenya National Commission on human rights presentation of landmark human rights reparation framework. Now the presidency will today host the presentation of the Kenya national commission on human rights which uh on reparations for victims of human rights violations at state house Nairobi. The report developed under a presidential directive outlines a structured national system for compensation, accountability, and institutional reforms following verified complaints linked to past unrest and rights abuses. The framework proposes a fivepillar reparations model, including financial compensation, restitution, rehabilitation, public acknowledgement, and guarantees of non-repetition.

[00:59:27]Stakeholders are expected to discuss the fine the funding challenges that will obviously meet this reparation fra framework implementation timelines as well as safeguards to ensure transparency and to prevent political interference in victim compensation.

[00:59:42]Now hopefully at uh the end of the day or as soon as they are done with this in state house we will be able to get >> a view actually into the full reparation framework and to be able to interrogate it. But as I've said many times on this show and will continue to say >> the reparation framework can come and I have never been opposed to compensating victims of police brutality but until people are doing time until people are behind bars until there is criminal justice for the victims of police brutality for the lives lost for the injuries for properties damaged then we will find ourselves right here in another year, maybe five, maybe 10, and looking at, oh, oh, let's form another reparations framework or let's enhance this one. Maybe the penalties weren't steep enough.

[01:00:36]>> And for me, >> the thing has always been >> if you let the state pay the bill, who exactly is paying the price, >> right? If the if the state is paying the bill, who is paying the price? because it's taxpayer money that is used to compensate victims of police brutality.

[01:00:57]So, it is your taxpayer money going to uh pay a victim of police brutality.

[01:01:04]Where is the accountability in that chain of command? And I will say it again, the idea here is not that these victims don't deserve compensation. I'm very much for it. But I'm when we read that statement, the framework has a fivepillar reparations model that includes financial compensation, restitution, rehabilitation, public acknowledgement, and guarantees of nonrepetition.

[01:01:28]Nowhere in those five things do you hear about criminal justice? And I am very like granular on criminal justice because we've done this runaround before. We've had other actually this would not be the first victims of police brutality to be to be compensated and they wouldn't be the last. they won't be the last. And maybe just looking at how far back this dates, >> think about uh victims of post-election violence that again were supposed to be compensated and there was um you know just the sentiment that came from those is that yes they were resettled but they felt one excluded when it comes to certain compensation and even that we had the truth justice and reconciliation commission that came out again with a report and recommendations on how people ought to be compensated. So this compensation uh conversation is not a thing that is new to Kenyans and we've never seen a situation where we've had full proper compensation and also justice because again let's date it back 2007 right >> those people that again were uh responsible for whatever happened in the country we all know how that ended up >> it is >> these victims at the very core of all of this police brutality any form of unrest. There's always the victims. Yes.

[01:02:51]So, we don't see justice, but also full compensation of them. Maybe it's because, and again, I'd be very interested to see this framework and full implementation of it is why are we then bringing up a framework now?

[01:03:06]why in 2026 yet we've had issues um time and again whether there's elections whether there's protest around matters compensation >> and also seeing that the only time we see Kenyans getting fully compensated is when they move to court >> right >> you move to court plead your case and then the court actually then demands for you to be fully compensated think about victims of certain abuses like um the wagala massacre >> uh and house um you know torture victims until you move to court is when you can be fully compensated. So would this framework then give us that kind of confidence to know that Kenyans don't have to move to court to get full um compensation and also to get their rights um you know their justice.

[01:03:55]>> Right. Yeah. I'd love to hear from the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights because some of it just sounds very dreamy. I'll be quite honest when you talk about guarantees of nonrepetition goodwill basically down that's essentially what we're doing with people's lives and it can like I >> we're missing something so simple here that >> if you again >> the question that needs to be asked over and over and over again you as the taxpayer footing the bill for compensation Who's paying the price >> here for all these excesses, for the lives lost? Is this justice of assort to these families and to the victims?

[01:04:41]Absolutely. Yes. Economic justice is a thing. So my question is not should we be giving them this money. It is who is paying the price? It's you, the taxpayer. the person who either fired a tear gas canister into someone or fired a live bullet or beat someone with a baton and injured them, that person continues to walk free while you as the taxpayer foot the bill. So that for me is where like the line just needs to be drawn. And unless we move towards criminal justice, I think we're going to continue seeing this. I'm thinking about people who have been compensated in the past and like you said, >> yeah, >> when you move to court, that's when things happen. Kenneth Matiba I think was a good example. He suffered immensely under the Moy government was compensated handsomely but essentially the people behind it did not learn their lesson. Correct.

[01:05:33]>> And I call sometimes Kenya is just a graveyard of injustice. I think it's just injustice on top of injustice on top of injustice on top of injustice because as the permiss person committing excesses >> when you are not held accountable it emboldens you to commit the next excess >> or if you are a person who is capable of committing excesses but was kind of worried about a consequence then the minute you see that you know what it's okay there'll be a compensation framework or you know everything I can get away with it that's the message we're sending >> you know even as we're in Mariam. The thing that I'm wondering is >> how how uh how political this particular framework is because the late ROinga and the current administration I mean put together certain demands to this administration and it was the 10point agenda.

[01:06:28]>> Yes. And part of that uh Nadco report was compensation of proh protest victims. And when he passed away, Edwin Cifuna came out, looked at dissected the 10-point agenda and said, "This has been done. This hasn't been done." And there was a deadline to it.

[01:06:47]>> And seeing this happen now, like two things could be true at the same time.

[01:06:52]Yeah. that this framework whether or not there was a 10point agenda is something that was very necessary for it to be done but how much of it has had the political goodwill just because it's something that we need to takeick off the 10point agenda >> to make that camp happy so I wouldn't really also remove the politics of it um from this um particular process and also just seeing the full implementation of it how much political goodwill do we need for it to be fully implemented otherwise it becomes another rosy report that's been put together and says yeah we actually did I mean it exists but the implementation lacks because of a lack of political >> goodwill >> I couldn't uh put it better it's essentially the same people that are part that are in a position to actually do something to change how things are done to ensure that this doesn't happen again >> um >> politicizing it putting it in a 10-point agenda and then coming back and saying, you know what, look, look what we've done. This is wonderful. And I was alluding to uh compensation earlier and Kenneth Matiba always is the one that comes to mind as as the biggest example cuz I'm not sure if any other individual has been awarded more than him. He was awarded 504 million shillings by a court of law for his illegal detention. And if you know about Kenneth Matiba Saba Saba, you understand where that number came from. 504 million shillings is an incredible amount of money.

[01:08:24]>> Correct.

[01:08:25]>> And it is a form of justice to Kenneth Matiba and to his family.

[01:08:31]>> However, if it was a real deterrent or would do anything >> to make sure that police brutality excesses, extrajudicial killings, detentions, and so on and so forth are a thing of the past, then we wouldn't be seeing them today. Kenneth Matiba was detained in the '90s and we are now in 2026 essentially still doing the same thing calling for the same uh compensation now but we've put a framework in it. So, I'd really love to hear from the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights on where criminal justice falls and you know the I've brought it up with so many elected leaders um especially the female members of parliament and the names the the things that have been called is idealistic and uh not utopian there's another one idealistic and >> yeah just cutesy basically Mariam it's like yeah so cute that and I'm like it's big nonsense like definitely miss me with that because until we hold people accountable, this country will not be safe for people to protest in and for people to actually uh pick it and to exercise their freedoms.

[01:09:38]>> Correct. Correct. And I'm just wondering how far back does this then how how do we you know we have a framework. Yes.

[01:09:48]How far back do we go in terms of compensation? Where do we start?

[01:09:52]>> Do we start from 1963?

[01:09:54]>> Do we say this goes back to 2007? Yeah.

[01:09:57]>> Does this start from 2024 when we had the Jenzi protests?

[01:10:01]>> I'd want that question answered and rightfully the Commission of Human Rights um would be a good guess to have.

[01:10:08]But also government because it still comes back to government. Does it have enough? 2 billion shillings is what was allocated for compensation of protest victims.

[01:10:17]>> Was that enough? If one person that is Kenneth Matiba got 54 million >> 4 million shillings. Let's do the math and look at the numbers. So we also have to be very very realistic as a country in that the source of funds. Who are we pinching this money from? Because again >> it has to come from somewhere.

[01:10:38]>> It has to come from somewhere. Do we even have a provision for it?

[01:10:42]>> So so many questions that uh would be going to towards you know this particular framework. good yes on paper but the very execution of it depends on so many things political goodwill aside is how many years are we looking at who counts as a victim >> who who is a victim if a police if I was standing on the street and a police >> oh that's a good one pushed me >> pushed me yeah >> I could say that is um I I I experienced a form of violence if I happened to be wrongfully arrested I could you know there's merit to that and saying that I'm a victim victim of a protest, a victim of violence. Point is the nuance of it, the intricacies of what who are the people that we are actually compensated is what we really need to look at. Very true.

[01:11:30]>> Otherwise, there's people who could easily come and present themselves as um victims.

[01:11:35]>> Is the political class also involved in this? Now that's the next question because you know it will will absolutely >> politicize who gets this compensation because someone has to verify and at this point um I remember when we last talked about this it was the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights that was coming through and this is through um reports made at police stations uh and they would verify and these are people that they have talked to and they have and people that had registered I think as we had what I think it was over a thousand I'm trying to remember the last time I spoke to someone from the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights over a thousand people that had been um that they had registered. But that's a very good question cuz how far back we go and then um how do we verify that these are legit cases? The next one then becomes even as we are saying that okay this person um experienced these excesses uh what's the how much >> what what excess >> what carries more weight >> I was short visav I um I was I got soft tissue injuries for example and also to the families of those that you know lost their loved ones so what is the threshold that we're looking at with each of those different classes is of um you know victims of um of of such extremities. I mean the questions are so many and the more I think about it the more I see >> how the answer ought to be just don't just don't do it >> then would not find no no no compensate them just the extremities we see from police >> it's follow the rule of law then we won't find ourselves here >> we won't have to sort out this puzzle just because you chose to do extremes that you own >> just don't do it >> but as a you have to think about it as a police officer tempted to commit an excess. What is keeping me in check?

[01:13:30]>> Yeah.

[01:13:31]>> If the law is not keeping me in check, there's no criminal justice followup.

[01:13:35]What is >> what Yeah. What deters me? What is holding me back? And that's why and the independent police and oversight authority >> I guess they try. I guess I guess >> try is such a good word. I yeah try is a honestly it's a generous word but again nothing happens until something happens so this idea of compensation financial compensation >> restitution rehabilitation who are you rehabilitating if you haven't >> identified the culprit >> unless it's rehab like um >> phys like physical therapy I don't know but again who are you rehabilitating if you haven't identified perpetrators.

[01:14:21]>> Public acknowledgement and guarantees of non-repetition. Public acknowledgement.

[01:14:25]Who is acknowledging in public? Is it the wrongdoer? Is it government? Again, because government is a big body.

[01:14:30]>> Yeah.

[01:14:30]>> And we've we've talked about who gets to who essentially is being held accountable.

[01:14:36]>> Also from that Kenya National Commission on Human Rights conversation, it was they were working with OBS and people who have reported and who have also come to report to them. M >> do you know how many victims of any crime will never go to any police station because then those are the institutions that actually are behind their their grievances. So how do you investigate yourself?

[01:15:02]>> How do you start? We I mean we clearly saw today just on the story that we covered on the Daily Nation this story of these two ladies who went to report again rape two rape victims attacked five months apart went to report to DCI ended up being treated as suspects because again it becomes you do not trust this institution to be able to deliver justice to you.

[01:15:25]>> Yeah. The fact that they went to report the first victim went to report a case of rape in Juja Kiamu at Setta police station.

[01:15:35]>> Nothing was being done. I guess she tries to look for someone to help her cause. Bonafes Mongi comes to the police station, speaks da da da. An inspector is assigned to this case.

[01:15:47]>> Yeah. [music] higher. The inspector then ends up under the investigation of the DCI >> because they are alleging that she is working with Bonafice Mongian Co. to plan protests in June.

[01:16:01]>> That that's where our security apparatus is thinking. These are the people you're excusing from the criminal justice system when you decide that compensation is the answer. M >> we have to end the show there but I think this conversation we'll have to have with the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights and we'll have to have with should they come here the DCI boss Muhammad Amin the inspector general of police and the [music] deputy inspector general Masenelli we'll also have it with Kipumba Murmen CS for interior the day they come here because until we figure out how to get justice criminal justice for these victims the the financial compensation will only act as a band-aid. Correct. Correct. Well, coming up next, we have Ranai and Claudia Saba on Nation FM. That's 96.3 five shift. And we have Winnie Lubebe who's coming in on your world. Catch you again tomorrow. This has been fixing the nation one conversation [music] at a time with myself, Lariss boy, Mariam Bashar, and Eric Led in Absentia.