PARLIAMENT ON FIRE: Ichung'wah Demands Evidence From Robert Mbui On Mitumba Taxes!.

[00:00:00]Mr. Speaker, this bill is actually going to tax clothes for those people that cannot afford new clothes. We are introducing a tax ON MITUMBA, THE CLOTHES that are bought by the people that we employ in our places that do not have money. MR. SPEAKER, WE ARE TOLD TO TAX THE POOR, THE HUSTLER, SO that cannot be cannot be able to uh just a moment's on a point of order. Majority >> honorable speaker you know I honorable speaker you know I I would hate to have interrupted Robert honorable Robert and in fact that's why I sought to inform him but is honorable Robert in order to be using the floor of this house to misinform the country that there is tax on mutumba because honorable speaker this bill is here before us and I have gone through this bill cross by clause And I saw another honorable speaker, former law society of Kenya chairperson make the same allegation and I thought the people like Kaluma who are lawyers are referred to as learned friends and I actually call her to tell her that she's she may seem learned but she's not learned at all because what Robert is saying is a propaganda that is being propagated out there and I want to challenge honorable Robert Mui to substantiate and show the house and the country where in this bill that tax proposal is because the bill is published as no such tax proposal. The fact is that there was such proposal that was presented to the committee in public participation. Honorable speaker, honorable speaker, if you can protect me from the member for the honorable member market.

[00:01:55]>> Order, order, order, order, order.

[00:01:57]Majority leader, order, order, order.

[00:01:59]You made your point of order and allow order.

[00:02:03]>> Honorable order. Honorable members.

[00:02:10]Honorable members, this is a house of dignity. Uh proceed honorable.

[00:02:15]>> Yes.

[00:02:16]>> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the other basic need is housing. The other basic need is housing on article 4. There's a proposal.

[00:02:27]Order. You made a specific >> Mr. Speaker, the bill, look at the size of this bill. It will take me to take me I order.

[00:02:41]Honorable members, order, order, order, order, order, order, order, order. You're not supposed to engage an honorable member across the aisle. This is a house of dignity.

[00:02:59]>> Honorable Bu, it is order. Honorable Bu the Hansard will bear out. You said that >> this bill in this bill mutumba are taxed.

[00:03:12]>> Yes.

[00:03:13]>> He said that it is not true factually.

[00:03:16]You are misleading the house and the public at large. Could you proceed now and substantiate >> where and which clause is it that those are the basic speaker?

[00:03:31]>> This is a huge bill. I mean for me I will have to go through this clause by clause so that I can find it. Mr. Speaker, allow me to proceed and I will get you get you I will get you the clause.

[00:03:45]>> Order order.

[00:03:48]You want to inform?

[00:03:49]>> One of my members can can can can inform the house.

[00:03:53]>> Do you wish to be informed?

[00:03:54]>> Yes. By who?

[00:03:55]>> Any of my members who has got it.

[00:03:56]>> Who is saying point of information there? Honorable >> honorable member [laughter] >> honorable members I I want to I want to draw your attention to standing order number 91.

[00:04:12]A member shall be responsible for the accuracy of any facts which the member alleges to be true and may be required to substantiate any such facts instantly.

[00:04:24]Instantly.

[00:04:27]Order, order, order. Honorable members, the chair, the chair is order, honorable, order. Honorable Mui, you have you have honorable I I can I >> are you on a point of information?

[00:04:46]>> Yes.

[00:04:47]>> And you wish to inform who?

[00:04:49]>> Honorable Buy.

[00:04:50]>> Yeah. But there's a matter that precedes that on that matter that standing.

[00:04:59]>> The standing orders are very very The standing orders are very clear and very straight.

[00:05:08]Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, >> point of order.

[00:05:14]>> Standing order number 91. ORDER. POINT OF ORDER.

[00:05:16]>> ORDER. ORDER. HONORABLE. Standing order number 912. If a member order, order. If a member has sufficient reason to convince the speaker that the member is unable to substantiate the allegation instantly, the speaker speaker shall require that such member substantiates the allegation not later than now proceed now. But it but then if SOMEBODY WHO IS ON A POINT of information >> okay the order of no no what's your point of order >> and there's a point of information that's been already somebody's on a point of information and the honorable Bu do you wish to be informed >> yes >> by the honorable member is Moro >> Moro proceed thank you thank Thank you, honorable speaker. I I think Mr. Buim misspoke because he meant uh the tax that was to be introduced on new clothes cuz there was a proposal in that finance bill. I want the majority leader to confirm that.

[00:06:20]>> Yeah. Order order honorable honorable there's the order order. Honorable Mui either you substantiate or you withdraw.

[00:06:32]>> I know I know I know the order.

[00:06:34]>> Yes.

[00:06:35]>> So So Mr. Speaker, what I will do for the interest of time because I can see members want to to listen to my I withdraw that that comment.

[00:06:44]>> Fair enough.

[00:06:45]>> And then I will substantiate it later.

[00:06:47]>> Fair enough.

[00:06:48]>> I withdraw it.

[00:06:51]>> Mr. Speaker, >> now I hope they will not stand up and say that there's no proposal to tax uh you know to tax rental income at a higher rate. In fact, the proposal here, Mr. Speaker, there's an introduction of a new tax, a new tax that they calling the non-resident rental income tax, which is going to be charged at a rate of 30%. Mr. Speaker, what that basically means is that if tenants have to be able to pay more, I mean, if if the landlord has to pay more, obviously they pass off that that that increase to the members that are their residents. SO, MR. SPEAKER THAT AGAIN IS WHAT IS out of orderable I I'll give you sufficient time >> honorable speaker again I rise on standing order 91 >> yes >> on responsibility for statement of factable speaker the honorable buys that is a new tax >> on rental income and honorable speaker since clearly the honorable Robert Buie has not gone through this bill >> let me help It is under clause four of the bill >> and the bill order I have given him an opportunity to raise on a point of order and he claims that you're misleading allow ORDER of >> his point of order your point Order. Or other order. Honorable members.

[00:08:27]>> Honorable members. Honorable members.

[00:08:30]Honorable Honorable.

[00:08:33]Honorable.

[00:08:34]Can you when the chair the chair is on his feet, >> you are supposed to freeze. You may order. You just said that there is a rental income and there's a tax on THAT >> AND HE'S ASKING YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THAT FACT.

[00:08:53]PROCEEDS OF GATE.

[00:08:54]>> HONORABLE SPEAKER ORDER. THE RULES ARE VERY CLEAR. WHEN YOU MAKE ORDER, ORDER, >> maybe some of you want to become heroes because you want the honorable the chair to throw you out.

[00:09:10]>> I [laughter] don't even honorable.

[00:09:11]>> Why don't you just listen?

[00:09:12]>> Honorable, I know you are a first timer in this house.

[00:09:17]Order order.

[00:09:20]When the chair is when the chair is on his feet, >> you freeze. No. Now what?

[00:09:32]on [laughter] order. Now, now from the look of things, honorable members want to become heroes to appear in the papers tomorrow. If you have facts, you will have an opportunity. If you raise the facts and you say they're facts, the other side has the right to contest that and tell you to prove it. You get my point now. If you really have serious issues, you will get to have your moment. Chair is going to give you an opportunity to say whatever you have to say. Order. Order. Speaker, if I can finish my point.

[00:10:04]Honorable Buie, honorable [laughter] speaker, I not even I not even raised the issue, honorable speaker because they interrupted me and the issue honorable speaker if if you could ask honorable Robert Buie, you actually wasting more time if you don't allow me to just guide cuz honorable speaker the standing orders speak on statements of facts.

[00:10:28]Honorable speaker, honorable honorable Buy, I am going to give you all the time for you to make your point.

[00:10:48]Order. It is not your business to control him. It's my business to control him. I'm order.

[00:11:01]>> Order, order, order. Now I can see people want to become heroes.

[00:11:05]>> You don't have any points. Maybe you don't have any substance to say here.

[00:11:09]You want me to throw you out? I'm not going to give you that pleasure. Can you can you give an hero on a point of order?

[00:11:16]>> Because order.

[00:11:19]>> Why do you keep on making things that you cannot substantiate if you think is >> Yeah. Mr. Speaker, can I give you the bill and I >> Okay. Okay. What your point of order?

[00:11:36]>> Yes.

[00:11:37]>> WHY? WHY? WHY DO YOU SAY IT'S NOT IN THE ORDER? ORDER.

[00:11:41]>> ORDER. ORDER.

[00:11:48]>> YEAH. What's What's your point of order?

[00:11:51]>> What's your point of order? Honorable speaker, I was very clear. I rose on studying order number 91 on statement of fact and not to interrupt my brother honorable Roberti or even to read for him because honorable Robert Buoui purported in his statement that the bill has a new tax on rental income. And that is why I said he must substantiate because what he said was that it was a new tax.

[00:12:23]But what is in the bill is no new tax.

[00:12:27]It is a tax for non resident Kenyan non residents that will not affect any Kenyan. It is a foreigner who owns a property in Nairobi who will have to [laughter] pay tax for that property.

[00:12:56]Majority leader order majority leader order majority leader order now honorable we continue proceed ordinarily we order Mr. Speaker the protection I will protect you >> thank you >> just allow the the house also to be orderly >> thank you thank you Mr. speaker. So this non-resident rental income uh tax is actually at the rate of 30%. And what I'm saying is honorable honorable >> ordinarily your time would have been up but I'm giving you five more minutes for >> Thank you Mr. Speaker. Thank you Mr. Speaker. So ideally my argument is that any time that you impose any taxation any taxation on a landlord the person that suffers is actually the person who is a tenant. So that is what I'm looking at the possibility that these will be passed on to our citizens. Mr. Speaker, there's also taxation on digital platforms. MR. SPEAKER, DIGITAL PLATFORMS and they have not even been they have not even been been defined here. But digital platforms, Mr. Speaker, are those platforms where we trade with online and we talking here about things like Uber. We are talking about all those all those online platforms. All these are being taxed.

[00:14:12]Mr. Speaker, we are also proposing there's a proposal here to to tax what we are calling payment networks and Mr. Speaker here I see EMPA air money all of those falling into the tax bracket and therefore that means that transactions that and you know that Empessa and Ael money are the banks of the hustlers because some of them cannot be able to to to to to put money in actual banks.

[00:14:38]for that also >> payment cards visa and masterard Mr. Speaker they also being the the the service fee is also being taxed Mr. Speaker I want to move on to the issue of uh the tax procedures and Mr. Speaker, I remember very well the current president. He told Kenyans that when it becomes president, he's going to try and make sure that the Kenya Revenue Authority becomes a Kenya revenue service. Mr. Speaker, now I can see Kenya Revenue Authority is going to become a Kenya Revenue Force. And Mr. Speaker, this is why I say that Mr. Speaker, THERE'S A PROPOSAL to allow the commissioner to use data driven from from tax assessments from from THIRD PARTIES TO BE ABLE TO DETERMINE how much one can how much tax ONE SHOULD PAY. MR. SPEAKER, even in the same industry, business concepts are different. Two people can have a hardware of the same size, but one of them is making profits and the other one is making losses. How can you decide that you're going to use data to determine how much someone owes?

[00:15:48]And Mr. Speaker, it is even scary because the previous system was like this that if the tax man gives you gives you hits you with a tax bill, you can be able to negotiate and if you're not happy, you can go to court. Mr. Speaker, the proposal that the executive has presented to this house is THAT YOU MUST PAY BEFORE you go to court. And even as you are in court, you your money will be tied. Even if it takes 10 years, your money will be tied. The commissioner is being given unfitted powers, MR. SPEAKER. POWERS THAT I MEAN POWERS that cannot be given to anyone. And Mr. Speaker, the fear is that if you do that, you weaponize Kenya revenue force so that they can be able to implement those assessments by themselves, decide that you owe 100 billion and come and tell you to pay and if you don't pay, they freeze the accounts. Mr. Speaker, these are things that we cannot accept.

[00:16:38]These are the things that will punish Kenyans. But I'm happy because I've seen an attempt by the committee to actually refuse some of those things. Mr. Speaker, even though we are talking about them, the fact is that until we go to committee of the whole house, they still remain on print and they still remain the proposals of this executive.

[00:16:54]Mr. Speaker, there's a proposal to shorten the time that you do your returns at the end of the year. The proposal is that uh the normal tax the normal 6 months are going to be shortened to four months. Mr. Speaker, basically what it means is that you are likely to have more people defaulting because they are unable to do their returns on time and therefore they get penalized. So Mr. Speaker, this is another way of attempting to get money out of Kenyans through penalties. Mr. Speaker, the period given of 6 months was enough. Let it remain as it was. AND WHILE STILL THERE'S A PROPOSAL that those who have near returns have to do the returns within a month. Now the people with new returns, Mr. speaker have to now look for an auditor, an accountant to put their books in order quickly within a month before a month is over. That basically again exposes them to the possibility of default. So Mr. Speaker, I want to say this this um this bill is a bill that is not helping Kenyans. It is a bill that is hurting Kenyans and these are the this is the REASON WHY KENYANS ARE constantly dissatisfied with this regime. Mr. Speaker, we will propose amendments to this bill all the way from the first clause up to the last clause because Mr. Speaker, we will not say we reject the bill, but we will amend the bill and remove ANY INCREASE OF TAX THAT IS being imposed on Kenyans anywhere in this BILL BECAUSE THE INTENTION IS TO RAISE MORE than 100 billion more from Kenyans.

[00:18:22]Kenyans are suffering. I heard the CS of Interior say that the reason our children are rioting in schools is because maybe the teachers that are teaching them are also Gen Z and they do not understand maybe how to run how to run these institutions. Aren't you telling all teachers are professional and they able to run THEIR INSTITUTIONS THE STRESS the teachers have the stress the parents have the stress THE CHILDREN HAVE IS COMING FROM SUCH BILLS THAT ARE IMPOSING a burden on parents on children and everybody in this country. I oppose Mr. Speaker.

[00:18:54]>> The honorable majority would you want to present yours now?

[00:19:01]Thank you speaker. Honorable speaker I rise to support this bill and begin by thanking the finance and national planning committee first for the very extensive public participation that they carried out on this bill and consequent to that public participation. Honorable speaker, unlike what many people were made to believe some two years ago that their views don't matter and don't count, today those who listen to the move of this bill, the honorable member for Moro, he has articulated very clearly the measures that the committee has proposed to the house and it is good that Kenyans understand that the bill is published. We debate it as honorable Robert Bu was saying. We debate what is published informed by the views of the public following public participation which then informs the amendments that my brother Robert Buouie is speaking to.

[00:19:58]And therefore I want to assure Robert Buie that indeed just as you will be proposing amendments to the bill, the committee has already proposed amendments that are in the report that is tabled. Part of those amendments touch on the issues my brother has spoken to that there was a proposal in the published bill to enable people to file returns some in January, some in March, others in June and that now has since been rationalized and we have made it clear if you read the report that individuals will file their returns for months post the year end. And for individuals that means anybody with a pin number that starts with the letter A.

[00:20:47]If your PIN number starts with the letter A, you are considered to be an individual. Those that start with P are businesses and they have up to the end of June as usually happens. Honorable speaker and I hope that is clear. Two honorable speaker this bill honorable Roban Buie puts it very well. Yes. The finance bill has an objective of raising revenue.

[00:21:12]But raising revenue does not necessarily mean additional taxes and that is what is untrue. There are no additional taxes on rental income. Honorable speaker as I said and I said it is under clause four.

[00:21:26]Any Kenyan can get a copy of the bill and read. The proposal is not a new tax and does not affect Kenyan residents earning rental income.

[00:22:40]Love that.