Should You Work With Family? (St. Lucia Special)

[00:00:00]In this episode of Business Girl Central, we are going deep under the covers of what it's actually like working in a family business.

[00:00:08]>> That's right. We're exposing all the secrets. We're talking about the big arguments that we have, the stresses, the frustrations, the things that drive us crazy, but also >> the good stuff as well.

[00:00:17]>> The good stuff, the benefits, the perks, how it works for us, how it might work for you, what to do if you have a child or a young person that you want to involve in your business, and lots lots more. Hi, welcome to a very special edition, the first on the road edition of Business Grow Central. I'm Nigel Botel, the founder of Entrepreneur Circle.

[00:00:36]>> And I'm Cameron Botel, the managing director here at Entrepreneur Circle.

[00:00:40]>> And we are on location, as you can probably see.

[00:00:44]>> We are not in the UK.

[00:00:45]>> Wow. No.

[00:00:46]>> Even though it's been very sunny back home.

[00:00:49]>> In the UK.

[00:00:50]>> Yeah. We're uh we're coming to you today from the beautiful island of St. Lucia >> where we have come Cameron and I have come with our respective wives with Sue and Laura and um Theodore John the next generation soon to be managing director of entrepreneur >> managing director in training.

[00:01:12][laughter] Absolutely.

[00:01:14]>> Uh Theo is coming up to 2 years of age.

[00:01:18]So the five of us have come out here for 12 days for a very lovely holiday and we get a lot of questions. I get a lot of questions especially about working with my sons. We have been a family business different interactions different challenges how that plays and so we thought we'd take the opportunity here in this very lovely kind of tropical setting to unpick some of that for you in this particular edition. Especially I mean a lot of people I think know kind of my story. It's certainly been told um a lot more than yours has.

[00:01:53]>> Wow. I haven't written a book about mine yet.

[00:01:56]>> Okay. Yes.

[00:01:57]>> Coming soon.

[00:01:57]>> Keyword. [laughter] But but I do think it's quite interesting. So you're let's just very clear you are the managing director of Entrepreneur Circle and you have been since the since January 2025.

[00:02:10]>> Yeah.

[00:02:10]>> That was when you took over as MD.

[00:02:13]>> Yes. One of your first major steps was to pitch me that we should acquire um Elliot's business.

[00:02:23]>> Yes.

[00:02:24]>> And bring him and his team into EC. But we'll leave that story, I think, for another day. Um >> yes, we can let Elliot tell that one if you like.

[00:02:31]>> And I I was very um it struck me I I overheard you at an event a few weeks ago. you were talking to a very long established EC member and and he commented something along the lines of um you know you're very young to the American director of a business like this and and your reply to him I thought was very was was bang on and you said um do you remember what you said to him?

[00:02:55]>> Yes. I I I'm pretty sure I said well I've had about 30 years of training [laughter] >> actually. That's what you said to get to this point. You said you said I've been training 30 years for this job. Which which I thought was really interesting and as an insight into what life is like as a child growing up in an entrepreneurial or in the family of an entrepreneur. Um because that's kind of what you were implying there and I'd like just to unpick that a little bit specifically. But should we go back to the very start because um we're recording this in the summer of 2026.

[00:03:28]>> Yes. So, at this point, how long have you been employed by and part of the entrepreneur circle team?

[00:03:36]>> Gosh, I'm going to say probably 11 years.

[00:03:40]>> Yeah. So, um and that's full-time in that in that time effectively. Um, and we should tell the story of of how this came to pass because I was very very reluctant in the beginning that you should come and work in the business as I'm sure you remember.

[00:03:57]>> Very much so. Do you want very much so background?

[00:04:01]>> Yeah. And I I think that it is a funny story and one that I do find myself telling quite a lot and any excuse to tell the story especially you know I as the MD I I make a point of actually we have a new starter lunch every month for all the new starters who join the team.

[00:04:18]So most months there's several people I'm having lunch with and I'm getting to know them all and I I always find a way to to make a point to slip into conversation this story. And I think part of that is just because I know uh as anyone out there who's worked in a family business, any sons of fathers who work together will know uh daughters too, that you're kind of always carrying this kind of shadow of I I think you kind of assume that people will think you are where you are because of who you are and that you're almost not worthy of of that. Well, that was my biggest that was really loomed large with me when you said you wanted to go and work in the business cuz I was very aware of I said to you >> that if you come here people will think you're only here >> because you're my son as opposed to because you are >> very much so as we know that was really just an inconvenient truth if anything wasn't it because uh this all started because I had no intention just so it clear of actually working for you or working in in the the business. I I remember actually for for most of my life, I had no idea what you even did.

[00:05:33]What everyone else had, you know, oh, my dad's a fireman or oh, my dad's a banker or whatever it is. I don't have a clue what I just goes to his office and does something.

[00:05:45]Um, literally until I was like 16 or 17 probably that was the case. But I went off to university as you know uh to study management and uh entrepreneurship with marketing because I knew I wanted to do something businessy.

[00:06:00]>> So that was your degree. It was in >> that was my degree management and entrepreneurship with marketing up in Lancaster.

[00:06:05]>> Okay.

[00:06:06]>> Um which was as we know now a complete waste of time. Um because >> it's fair to say you are a strong advocate for not going to university. It has its place. If you want to become a lawyer or a doctor or work in in engineering or something useful like that, but if you want to run a business, then save yourself some time and money cuz it's just it's just not helpful at all. So, I I had by the time I was going to uni, I'd kind of decided that I wanted to have my own business mainly because I I had this window into into what that can unlock for you and the freedom that you've got and the lifestyle that you can have and all the all the wonderful things. done a few businesses in your school years.

[00:06:48]>> Yes, exactly. Of course, I had this entrepreneurial little bug. I don't know where that came from.

[00:06:53]>> What was your your first one was Twitter followers, wasn't it?

[00:06:56]>> Yes. Yes, it was. Yes. Back when Twitter was just popping off and people wanted to follow us and there were these little tools where you could automatically follow people and get follows back and stuff like that. So, a little service to business. And I I had some of my friends at school working for me. I was very smart, you see. So that it was pretty easy to set up and run, but it was a bit of a pain. A lot of data entry and stuff to get going.

[00:07:19]>> And so I just employed my friend and paid him like a Fiverr for a day or something crazy cuz we were only like 15 years old, I think. Um, so I'd slip him a Fiverr. He'd do all the admin work and then I would keep what was much more than a Fiverr that people were paying us. So several different things like that. Did a little Twitter business there. I I had a stint at selling bamboo sunglasses online. Uh >> your hoverboards, I remember.

[00:07:45]>> Hoverboards were a big one. Importing, you know, hundreds of those two wheeled hoverboards over from China.

[00:07:50]>> You filled the entire garage with hoverboards. I remember that.

[00:07:52]>> That was the day I vowed never to own a business with physical stock ever again cuz it was such a headache. So, I take my hat off to any of you out there who run a business with physical stock >> cuz you basically took all the money that you'd raised from all your other ventures and basically bought all these hoverboards, didn't you?

[00:08:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. I bankrupted myself on hoverboards and then sold them all.

[00:08:11]Anyway, that's so lots of these are little entrepreneurial things. So, I knew I wanted to do this and do it properly. So, I didn't know exactly what yet. But, well, let's go to uni cuz at least we'll have a fun time and at least that'll buy me three or in my case four years to decide what we wanted to do.

[00:08:26]>> And it was four years because I had a placement year in the middle sandwich course. So, two years at uni, one year in industry and then final year back at uni. And so it got to second year and everyone's talking about where you're going to go for your placement and they wheel in all the guys from Deote and KPMG and EY and all the big consulting firms and I was just not interested in any of that at all. I couldn't understand why anyone wants to go and work in this place because you basically go and what it's it's it's like being my friend from school doing all the admin work for a fire. Like you're doing like we used to call them spreadsheet monkeys. It's like that's the role you went to do, just doing other people's spreadsheet stuff. So, I didn't want to do that. So, I started trying to find a place where I would be able to actually learn stuff that's going to be useful for me, but also have a bit more of an impact and and be able to do something more useful.

[00:09:19]>> Yeah.

[00:09:20]>> And this was right in the peak training academy years of entrepreneur. Okay.

[00:09:25]>> It was like a couple years into the training academy. Yeah.

[00:09:28]>> So, at the old office, we'd launch, the first time we'd launched, basically training courses for business owners on every topic that they could ever want and I was sat in my little dorm room one day just thinking, gosh, like that would be a great way to spend my placement here. I could just I'd learn more just attending every entrepreneur circle training course going than I would have these last two years at uni. And so I thought about it and and but kind of just missed it in my mind because I was like, "Oh, well, don't want to work for Nigel."

[00:09:59]>> And I I remember we we but you spoke about it. You came home one weekend and you kind of tentatively >> kind of floated this >> and I I was very dismissive of it. I I I it was completely the wrong thing to do.

[00:10:11]You have to go and find your own way.

[00:10:14]>> And um you know, I wasn't ruling out never ever coming into the business. But >> I think at that point, did you think that I was floating the idea as like an easy route to get a placement?

[00:10:25]>> Well, there was definitely that possibility, wasn't there?

[00:10:27]>> Like a little shortcut cheaty bit like, oh, I'll just do this >> like like when um when you go for work experience in like your mate's dad's business and stuff. It was that it had that kind of feel about it.

[00:10:40]>> Yeah. That that that this isn't the right thing for you to do. is you need to go somewhere else and get some experience um outside the >> the the family bubble.

[00:10:50]>> Yeah. But that's when I I I accepted that like I I went back to uni started looking all sort started applying. I like wrote a whole application for the Discovery Channel.

[00:11:02]>> Oh, really? Okay.

[00:11:03]>> Yeah. And then I like and I actually I sent it off and I got a reply like a couple weeks later and it was like you're invited to this assessment day in like rugby or something and I just thought no just come I just I don't even want this placement enough to go to the assessment day to find out if I get it and I was like oh and I think that was quite a pivotal like I was like oh I don't even want to do this so therefore I'm not like why am I doing it then? And I so I was thinking, "Oh, I need to find somewhere actually good to do my placement." And I kept looping back to this stupid idea like, "Oh, Entrepreneur Circle, it's like so the place to do this." And so I embarked on a mission.

[00:11:37]>> Yes.

[00:11:38]>> A mission to persuade you that I was doing this and have thought about this in the right way and understood all the the concerns and everything. And so I I set about one night high on on Red Bull and uh and an intense lack of sleep.

[00:11:53]>> Should I take over the story at this point from my perspective? Please go on.

[00:11:57]>> So cinematic. So, so one day this large parcel arrived at the office and it's big box private and confidential for Nigel Bosel's eyes only and um so it was brought brought into me and I what this is and and tentatively open this up and inside is an A3 so quite large hardbacked book and um with a plain cover as I recall and I open this Arbback book up and the first page was a letter and it was a letter uh dear Nigel um it is extremely inconvenient that you are the owner of Entrepreneur Circle because and I paraphrase now but anyone with half a brain can see that Entrepreneur Circle is the best place by a mile for me to spend and my internship.

[00:12:59]>> Mhm.

[00:13:00]>> And to help you see sense um I have listed in this book 100 reasons why 101 reasons 101 reasons why I would be or was it you would be the best intern that we ever I think it was wasn't it? It was it was it was all about what you could bring to the stress.

[00:13:16]>> Yes. It was much better written than that. But that is the general message.

[00:13:19]Yeah. Yeah. It was it was good. I I remember that the bit was it was like it's it's very inconvenient for the both of us that you are the owner of circle because if you weren't then I'd already had my internship there because if you weren't there then you'd have let me in and if you weren't there I do anyway. So it was um so then we had this big A3 book.

[00:13:41]>> Yeah.

[00:13:41]>> One reason per page.

[00:13:43]>> Yeah.

[00:13:43]>> And again some of the reasons were very good reasons.

[00:13:46]>> Yes. Some were stronger than others >> and some were, you know, 101 is a big list of anything. Before the days of chat, GPT and AI now it would be easy, you know, now it'd be so unimpressive.

[00:13:58]You'd spot those M dashes.

[00:14:00]>> But I but I I got this book. I thought that is actually quite impressive. But I thought, you're still not coming. This is still not the right place.

[00:14:06]>> It's terrible >> for you. And that was on a it was mid I think that was a Wednesday when that arrived. and and I can't I don't think we had a conversation um at all >> because you didn't even tell me it had arrived. No, you kept me waiting for ages.

[00:14:19]>> And and then on the Saturday, this is the bit I remember. So this is 4 days later on the Saturday I was taking um your younger brother Fabian.

[00:14:28]>> Mhm.

[00:14:28]>> Who this is 2015, so Fabian would have been like 10.

[00:14:33]>> Yeah.

[00:14:33]>> Then and I was taking him to his first football match at Villa Park.

[00:14:37]>> Wow. and um and at Villa Park I got in we're in the stadium um the teams were out warming up and everything he was very happy with taking some photos and stuff it was 10 to 3 on um Saturday afternoon 10 minutes to kick off and I just flicked on my phone almost had a habit oh I'll just check my emails just a moment you know you >> business owner >> and um and there's email in from Cameron at Lancaster University and the subject line is part two of my application and And this was this was what got you in the door?

[00:15:10]>> Well, even then before officially worked out again 30 years of training. So I picked up a few things. The importance of followup, [laughter] you know, and and so tried a different tact and I thought, well, if if the the grand gestures and the lumpy mail is not going to get him, then I'll go the other way. And I I attempted to put together essentially a plan >> for what I would do.

[00:15:36]>> Yeah. in my placement year for the business.

[00:15:40]>> Yeah.

[00:15:40]>> From a strategic, you know, these are the ideas I've been thinking about. This is the the projects I would start and these are the changes I would make in a a nice kind of semiformal document.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. And and and this was this bit was really impressive and particularly so because the day before on the Friday, I'd had a a half-day meeting with my leadership team and I'd actually been very disappointed with the contributions that I'd had in that meeting from other people about where we should take the business, what we should be doing. And then I got this email um from this you know 19-year-old student up at university and there was more kind of strategic insight and grasp because it it was very very insightful was that email and it was only like a two-page PDF but it was all kind of in bullet point but what you would do what what the business should be going how you could help it get there what we should be doing and that was what got you that's when I caved essentially and said all right then >> and do you think I mean I guess reflecting on this whole notion of like 30 years of training for the job cuz obviously the fact that I but a Lully student was able to have that level of of of strategic input that was clearly more aligned with your >> thinking of what's going on there. I guess that is probably the first well it's one example >> of that coming to fruition.

[00:16:59]>> Yeah.

[00:17:00]>> Because it would probably be much more difficult for someone who hadn't lived with you for their entire life >> until that point and kind of osmosis absorbed.

[00:17:10]>> Well, this Yeah. Then this but this this of course brings into the whole thing, doesn't it? Because you know as kids and you you a lot of it's unconsciously but you had been exposed >> to all the vagaries of all the the upsides and the downsides >> of of running and building a successful business because you've lived in the house as you say >> and there are there are conversations around dinner tables and in cars and stuff and >> I used to I I think I think every kid when they're young in particular is like really interested in what their parents do for work.

[00:17:46]>> I don't know. I like at a young age. I think that's that is like a really interesting thing. And I think it's even more interesting probably when you have no idea what they do and you can't >> because I don't remember I don't remember you ever asking asking the questions around the business.

[00:17:59]>> Well, I remember my I had a friend at junior school. So, I must have been like eight or nine years old and this was right around N5 time. Yeah. Cuz I just started solo school. You started your own consulting business which I now know >> was like a management consulting >> business delight yourself going into his business.

[00:18:17]>> But I just remember you had these business cards that were shaped like tin cans.

[00:18:21]>> Tin cans >> and it and it was like you had your little saying on it and it was like >> it said it said success comes in cans.

[00:18:29]>> Yeah.

[00:18:29]>> Not in canotss.

[00:18:30]>> There you go. This little pun. And for the longest time, me and my friend Samrazzi thought that you made tin cans [laughter] >> cuz that's the only thing we had to anchor that on. And but I think that, you know, I used to always really enjoy when we got to go into the office.

[00:18:45]>> Yes. you know, when we got drafted in to help stuff envelopes or just like we had to chill there for an hour while we waited for Monday to be free to pick us up or whatever it was or but like being in that environment and seeing what was going on was just really interesting like helping out at like the big events and stuff like we we took the day off school to go to a big conference for the best of one year at the Rico Arena >> and we had no idea what was going on or what you were talking about but like again just absorbing all this stuff and I think that looking back on Um there wasn't like it's not like we had business lectures every evening or something like that or there was any deliberate attempt to kind of bestow business stuff on us but you know we did get handed several business books >> that we were recommended to read >> on holidays and stuff like that. We did I I know I used to come along to several events even when I was very young.

[00:19:37]>> I think you used to Dallas.

[00:19:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. How old was I then?

[00:19:40]>> I think you were about 13 12 or 13.

[00:19:43]>> Yeah. There was um it was a conference I I I spent a lot of time in the formative years of the business. I used to go to America four or five times a year to different conferences and events and um there was one event which had a separate little thread. It was it was essentially bring your kid bring your teenager and which I mean very progressive really and and you were excited to go. We got permission from school and so you came with me um to Dallas for like a 4-day conference um of which you were with me for like one of the days but the other three days you were >> I just remember some of the sessions being sat there like I [laughter] there was a session that was all about copyrightiting and throughout the whole session I'm like what are they on about keeps talking about oh when it comes to copy copy copy copy kept using the word copy and at the end and like an hour goes by like a 90-minute session goes by and I'm just sat thinking what they even talk about and I just go to you like what's copy and you're like oh my god that's basically now I understand it's just writing stuff is what they're talking about but like filling those little gaps but even those events again it's not like I can't remember anything specific I learned at that conference I like that but the fact that I was going there and immersed in this kind of world of business with other business people >> I just think that's an interesting thing for anyone who has young children even if they don't want to run a business themselves. I think if you've got a business, >> you almost owe it to your children because you've got the ability to give them >> Yeah. awareness and more understanding.

[00:21:17]>> Yeah. Understanding of of of the world and work and how it happens cuz if you have a job at if you work at Deoid, you can't just bring your kid to work for a week and stuff like that.

[00:21:25]>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I don't I don't think we ever spoke because obviously you and your brother going to Sully school in many ways well it was the trigger for me setting up the business >> because I recognized that I couldn't pay these school fees for all my children working for somebody else because there was going to be too much money and so the only way I could do this would be to set up my own business because this notion was somehow I can do it myself I have to be able to earn the money but I don't we never articulated that explicitly to you. No, >> it it was it was it was never um but that was it was all grown in in the roots of it. So, let's let's let's come through all that. Some interesting insights there. But but you >> fast forward. I've got my internship.

[00:22:04]>> Well, hold on. But we had a conversation. Do you remember the conversation we had?

[00:22:07]>> Yeah, I remember the conversation.

[00:22:08]>> So So we had a proper sit down.

[00:22:10]>> It's like an interrogation.

[00:22:11]>> Well, kind of. And I said, "Look, all right, you can come, but there are some conditions to this."

[00:22:19]I said, "If you come, you have to recognize number one, everyone will think you're only here because of who you are."

[00:22:25]>> Mhm.

[00:22:26]>> And and that will be difficult for you.

[00:22:28]>> Yeah.

[00:22:29]>> You know, um some people won't trust you. They won't want to reason not to like you. It's the boss's kids here sort of thing. You know, this is that it's not necessarily a great environment that you're coming into. I said, "What that means is you'll have to be twice as good as everybody else in order to prove your worth."

[00:22:48]>> Yeah, >> that was the important thing. I said, "You can never win any awards of any sort."

[00:22:53]>> You know, you can't here >> lawyer of the month >> and here's our team of the month.

[00:22:58]>> So that that that can't ever happen.

[00:23:00]>> Um but if you on this basis, if you want to come for your internship, then we will make it happen. And you said, >> "Yeah, that's so fine. [laughter] I know all of that. That's all so good."

[00:23:15]>> And then something very interesting happened and I and this is this is great credit to you really. And and in some respects as I look back almost almost one of my proudest can I say moments, not really a moment as such, but but what happened? So when you arrived and you're meeting people all a little bit awkward and everything else and you had your desk and stuff and in the team and I remember I remember one of the guys um it was our butler at the time which is not Matt the butler butler >> it was our previous butler and I remember over hearing him in the kitchen say oh there's a spy in the camp now that was what he said and um so I can see all this happening but what was really interesting is that within a few months and it was months it wasn't weeks but within five or six months it became very apparent to me that people started to defer to you. They started to bring things to you and ask what do you think >> before they kind of came up to to to me for intern.

[00:24:07]>> Yeah. Which is obviously hierarchically and organizationally that this is all wrong. It shouldn't be this way. But this is what was actually happening.

[00:24:15]>> Yeah. I and I think it comes back to this whole 30 years of training thing.

[00:24:21]>> Yeah. Because even though I'm but a lowly intern in this business because of you know it's like this whole nature versus nurture.

[00:24:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well that we should >> big up the nurture aspect of that because having lived and been brought up in your household.

[00:24:38]>> Yeah.

[00:24:39]>> I was already on day one of my internship.

[00:24:42]>> Yeah. Thinking that >> more in tune with your way of thinking than a lot of people who' worked.

[00:24:48]>> It's less about Nigel's way of thinking.

[00:24:50]And it's much more about an entrepreneurs's way of thinking. Well, >> that's how I would phrase it.

[00:24:55]>> They're one and the same, wouldn't you say? And so that was quite interesting.

[00:24:59]And I think I I you know, your words of warning rung true. And I was very aware that I had to be seen to be doing more and being better than everyone else to to try and earn that respect from people. I didn't take that for granted.

[00:25:13]I remember like I remember um you know I used to get to work when we used to start work at half 8 in those days. I used to get to work like before 7 >> like before you sometimes but I like get there at like seven.

[00:25:27]>> Yeah.

[00:25:28]>> I didn't have anything to do. [laughter] >> I was into I was like this is early like my first weeks I'm doing data entry stuff. Yes.

[00:25:33]>> That like I had to wait for the person to come and give me their thing for the day. But I'd get that before everyone else so that when everyone arrived, I was always there before them. And I would always leave like after everyone had left, so that they knew that I was not just swanning in late and doing stuff like that. Even little things like that.

[00:25:50]>> And and I think, you know, making sure I was working hard and being as helpful as I could be and offering to help people with this, that, and the other, and overburing myself so that I could show people what I was doing. And I think that it would be very easy in the scenario I was in to not do that.

[00:26:04]>> Yeah.

[00:26:04]>> If you were just looking for an easy placement.

[00:26:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> I could have just sat and done my data entry in the corner and moving fine. But because I didn't want to do that, I wanted to get more involved in more stuff. I wanted to I wanted to be done with the data entry >> and get into the the marketing side and all that fun stuff.

[00:26:21]>> And that is what happened, isn't it? And you you know, you started to take on more stuff. But then then your internship came to an end >> and and this this and this was this was a point of of of genuine kind of um familial conflict then >> and and and we became I became your ally in this regard because because you wanted to not go back to uni for your final year. Well, all my my hypothesis had come true because I'd learned more in this year than I had in the last two years at uni about the stuff I wanted to learn about about running a business and about, you know, entrepreneurship and marketing and stuff like this. And so, it just seemed stupid to me to go back to Lancaster, spend another year not learning anything when I could stay here and actually be useful and helpful and do more stuff. Now at this point and you little background so I never went to university. Um Sue did um she she did a degree in um French and Russian speaks many languages as does does Sue and um and you were effectively that you are literally were the first bottl >> to ever go to university >> and here you are at the start of your final year wanting to basically drop out.

[00:27:31]>> Yeah.

[00:27:31]>> And and I could absolutely see both sides of this.

[00:27:34]>> Wow. I will say if you are a uni student, if you've started a uni degree and you want to drop out, there's no point asking anyone for advice because everyone will just tell you to stick it out and see it through. Which psych I did psychology A level, so I've got quite a lot of psychoanalysis skills I use a lot in business. And and the truth is if if a young person is thinking about dropping out of uni and they ask you for advice, the easy thing to do is tell them to stick it out cuz that's a very lowrisk bit of advice. You tell them to drop out and then what? They they waste their life and they, you know, burn out or whatever, then that's on you cuz you told them to drop out. So everyone's just going to tell you to stick it out. And everyone, literally every everyone at work who like didn't want me to go but was still like, "Oh, but you got to see it through. You got to see it through." Like no one tells you exact makes so much sense. Yes. Save yourself tens of thousands of pounds on rent and tuition fees and just bail here.

[00:28:34]So it's not that helpful to get all this external. Everyone's like, "Oh, stick it out. Stick it out."

[00:28:38]>> But then you got your timetable.

[00:28:40]>> Yeah, >> that was the that was the critical thing, wasn't it? Honestly, and and uni timetables, let me tell you, that is testament to the wasted time they are cuz my degree my final year degree and I had like one lecture on a Tuesday morning and then like a lecture and a workshop on a Wednesday and like one workshop on a Thursday and that was it.

[00:29:04]And I looked at that and I thought, well, I don't need to go to that one. So, let [laughter] me shimmy these things around here. And I we basically decided that actually I could do both >> and that's what I am.

[00:29:18]>> So so we kept you on um as a member of the team >> semi- remote >> and um yeah you were I remember you were in the office like Mondays and Fridays.

[00:29:26]This is before we went to 4 day a week.

[00:29:28]This is back in 2015 2016 and and so you basically used to be in the office with us in Sully on Mondays and Fridays and then Monday night you go up to or Tuesday morning you go up to Lancaster.

[00:29:38]Yeah.

[00:29:38]>> And you'd be there Tuesday, Wednesday nights and you come home Thursday. And so you managed to do your final year degree and and maintain what was by then a proper full-time job. You were no longer the kind of, you know, intern.

[00:29:50]You had you had a proper role and responsibilities in our marketing team then at that point, didn't you? And so that was your final year.

[00:29:57]>> Um you you kind of graduated um and um >> you're done with that.

[00:30:04]>> You couldn't wait to leave, could you?

[00:30:06]>> Honestly. and and and then and then it became I don't think we ever even had a conversation about like you just carried on, didn't it? Basically, so you're because essentially you're um >> there's an interesting business lesson there about things like renewals, not making too big a deal of them, you know, don't give people a reason to change their mind and say, you know, just keep turning up every day to work. [laughter] >> But that and that is what that is what happened, isn't it? And you you took on more roles and then um I think I know somebody left you you which you stepped up in a you know and and and quite quickly you started to >> and to head up the marketing team.

[00:30:39]>> I mean that was a few that was a few years down the line when you actually headed it up, wasn't it? I was we were five or six years in at that point.

[00:30:45]>> Um but you'd done increasingly senior roles. I mean I mean quite early on you took on the um you know the convention was very much you know all the logistics of that has been yours for for many years hasn't it? you you you you've run that logistically and um and owned that piece and and the role got bigger and and I thought that's quite an interesting little insight really into where this kind of came from because it absolutely wasn't kind of gifted to you and and all the drive for Cameron to be in the role that he's in now and indeed even be part of the business all came from you not from me and and and as a as a dad >> I feel I'm in this I mean every day now not quite literally pinch myself but I do know how fortunate I am and I I am grateful for this every single day to to have this you know to be working with not just Cameron with Elliot as well now >> um you know on a daily basis in this amazing business which you know has lots of impact on people you know we're making a big difference to people's lives and people's businesses you know it enables us all to have um you know a good lifestyle we're able to come to St. Luc show on family holidays and and what what an amazing thing to do. But it was never my dream. It was never my plan that my kids will oh my kids will come into this business.

[00:31:59]>> Well, and I think that's quite a dangerous >> angle to come at this if it's from the other way.

[00:32:06]>> Oh, well it would be not possible, would it?

[00:32:07]>> If you're dragging kicking and screaming.

[00:32:10]>> Whereas the Exactly. It was really was almost the exact opposite of that, wasn't it, with us? and and indeed with Elliot as well because I mean Elliot went away for 10 years and and you know built his own business and and went to work for Sachi and Sachi and stuff. So it was only later that he he you know he he came you know into um into the the family business but um I that is that's quite an important kind of um point of >> Yeah, very much so.

[00:32:34]>> And and the and then how we should just talk about and explore a little bit then how it works because um I think people are well people are interested in this.

[00:32:42]Yeah, I I I think it's quite funny.

[00:32:44]Again, that's psychology a level. Um [laughter] cuz I think that for all, you know, 30 years of training, thinking the same way about this and the other, we're actually very different.

[00:32:53]>> Yes, we are.

[00:32:54]>> And I think that we work very differently.

[00:32:56]>> We do. This is true.

[00:32:57]>> Which at occasionally is a point of contention. And I we've we've had to have I was trying to think today actually this morning. I was thinking gosh cuz we do have the odd argument.

[00:33:08]>> Yes. the the odd heated discussion probably a better word.

[00:33:12]>> Well, the foreign office would call it a franken open discussion.

[00:33:14]>> I'd say probably like once every six months or something something will happen. We'll be a little heated debate on on something that's going on there.

[00:33:24]But it's almost always because actually we operate our brains operate quite differently >> because you're one of these people who talks to think and when you're brainstorming and talking about stuff you like to discuss it and throw stuff around whereas I'm one of these people who has to think to talk and I have to internalize and and mull and think and and and so >> that's immediately very stressful. It is. There are times when I I've had an idea, a concert, and I'm let me talk to what do you think?

[00:33:56]>> And I get this and I get nothing back at all in the in the moment.

[00:34:00]>> Yeah.

[00:34:00]>> I get nothing back at all in the moment.

[00:34:01]And this used to frustrate me a lot.

[00:34:03]COME ON. COME ON.

[00:34:05]WHAT ARE YOU TALKING TO [laughter] ME?

[00:34:06]And and then what but and I did learn this, you know, it's quite a long time ago now. But with with what I have to do with you is I have to float my ideas out. I have to get them out in some sort of way and then I have to let you reflect for a couple of days and then you'll come back to me with invariably it's like with most of what we if we worked on them together it's a lot better than either of us could get to on our own >> always the way and and I think that you know there's there's a few different things where we we do have almost diametrically opposed approaches and styles and I think our thought process like the our brainstorming thinking process is definitely on. I think that I don't know. I I am naturally a very unstressed person.

[00:34:51]>> Yes.

[00:34:52]>> Takes a lot to to cause me any any angst or stress or or major frustration. Um whereas you're not, are you? Sometimes the littlest thing and and I think that this is uh you know, we had a situation and it was it was quite a while ago now, but like something had gone wrong. there was some mistake and and you'd you'd you know an email had been sent someone had emailed like a few of us and we'd all got the email I could tell we're all reading at the same time and you run out your office like ah guys quick we need to sort this out now what's going on running around >> with a few expletives in there as well >> just a few I I walk around right go away okay I've already done this that's sorted that's boxed off this is done now this is fine work out what's happened here? I will reply. This is awful. And you're like and it's just two those two different >> Yeah, it is >> cuz I I I just want to solve and you also want to just solve a thing. But I think communication styles are very different >> because you're very out there and I'm not very out there. Um, believe it or not, and like day-to-day working wise, I I'm a big fan like like and we'll say a lot in even like the leadership team meeting that we run every Monday.

[00:36:07]>> Yes. So like you >> talk a lot in those meetings and I listen a lot in those meetings and I would let people talk about and explain their idea whereas you sometimes would perhaps interrupt them a few seconds >> interrupt [laughter] >> to skip because like you know where they need to get to or where they're going to get to and so you just jump and skip them straight there whereas I I would let them get to that point and little different bits like which it's not that one is right or wrong, but they are a bit different. And again, it's just quite interesting how actually for the 30 years of training.

[00:36:45]It it hasn't impacted. It's not like I'm a little mini Nigel.

[00:36:48]>> No, I think that is very true is that and and it's why you know the the positives have been very significant.

[00:36:56]There've been lots of them in you taking on the MD role because everybody in the team, no one the only person that kind of reports to me is is Cameron.

[00:37:05]everybody else reports in through through you and um which has been absolutely fantastic from my perspective.

[00:37:13]>> Yeah.

[00:37:14]>> And um so and and actually but it's also been fantastic from their perspectives as well.

[00:37:22]>> Yes.

[00:37:23]>> And and and this again but again I think this wouldn't have happened been very difficult if this had happened in a very short space of time but I think we we have had 11 years.

[00:37:33]>> Oh yeah. to properly work out and understand the dynamics of working together. And and the truth is, I mean, there have been times when you I've been very frustrated with you and I know that the >> other way around. Um, but but the if you start to think about that, the frequency of that is like, >> oh, it's all my god. Do you remember this was many months ago now? We had a proper proper one.

[00:37:59]>> And yeah, we did. Gosh, I won't go into too many details. it would embarrass you in front of other people. But we had a proper argument and it was just cuz we had two different approaches to this thing and it wasn't even that important.

[00:38:11]But we got probably got into him and and Elliot was sat there as well cuz he was involved. He was in the meeting and we were like going at it like and and we were about to film a podcast and we're having this big argument going on and Elliot sat there like oh my god like oh I could see his face like flipping X.

[00:38:28]This is like a month or two into his tenure with us.

[00:38:31]>> Yes.

[00:38:31]>> And and I had this big idea and at the end we're like right fine we're all sorted then like great fine and we're like okay podcast and it's like okay 3 2 1 hi welcome back to business [laughter] show and I remember Elliot was like see if you can go back and spot the episode where Elliot's just like in a state of shock for the first few minutes cuz he couldn't believe that we'd like had that argument but then it was like bam okay done back to back to business and I think that's >> we're both quite good at being able to flick that switch.

[00:39:04]>> Yeah, very much so.

[00:39:05]>> And I think that is important for a family business.

[00:39:08]>> Well, and also >> cuz you've got to go home. [laughter] >> Well, although we don't just we don't live together now.

[00:39:13]>> Not anymore.

[00:39:13]>> Um but the um but the driver for both of us is always the business.

[00:39:19]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:20]>> That that that that will be um >> it's always because we think >> Yes.

[00:39:24]>> our thing is the right thing for the business.

[00:39:27]>> And if you're wrong, >> you're damaging the business.

[00:39:30]>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Um, so >> but I guess isn't that an interesting point as well because if you look at family if you zoom out to family businesses in general because there are there are definitely cons but there are definitely pros and I think one of the pros has to be the the investment.

[00:39:44]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:45]>> Of all of you in that business emotional investment not not financial. Yeah, the the amount of care that you have for this business, you know, cuz like I wouldn't like uh even members of the leadership team at a certain point will just give in to you if you're if you're fighting over something or if you have an idea and you don't like it.

[00:40:03]>> I want to talk about this cuz this is true.

[00:40:04]>> Whatever. That's fine. Whereas I won't >> because I >> care more about the business.

[00:40:10]>> Yes.

[00:40:11]>> Than I care about pleasing you.

[00:40:14]>> Yes. Yeah. And that I think that is that that is one of the really important high value things that you've brought to the business because the you know the conversations in in many ways you kind of keep you've kept me I say honest that's not quite the right word but you you've ensured that the the the decisions have been validated properly >> um in a way that it is difficult for someone that is not family to pick a fight with the boss. That is that's just the truth of it, isn't It's not impossible, but it's harder to to >> No, I I would I would I would agree that um so um as I say, you're in the role now of MD. You've been in that role as we record this for like the last 18 months.

[00:40:57]>> Um this was all really part of our move to the new offices cuz I I I make no pretense that that if if you hadn't been in the business, that move would almost would not have happened. and my appetite to actually effectively I call it stirring the pot. But I had a very lovely life here. We had a great business. Everything was I had no debt.

[00:41:19]I had no everything was beautiful.

[00:41:21]>> And now you have lots of >> and now I've got more. [laughter] >> You're welcome.

[00:41:25]>> Um but we that was all because of the f I recognize now that entrepreneur circle has a future you know hopefully you know long way way beyond me. Not that I'm going anywhere. Um but um under C you know with Cameron Elliot now kind of you know involvement in the ship and we're now looking very much at the next kind of chapter and kind of where that goes >> and and then some people then look at it oh my god you know what's it like then coming on holiday together like we've been in for like 12 days.

[00:41:53]>> I find it so interesting people have different thoughts on what we're like I guess when we're not [clears throat] working together. Some people either think that we like have this like we must not talk about business or they think we must always be talking about business and it's like nope. It's just we're like on holiday and then every now and then >> like something will come through or have an idea or discuss something's there.

[00:42:21]But it's not like it's neither of those two extremes. and and and it also the thing is because it's because the the the business is such an it's such an intrinsic part of both of us and who we are. It's a very natural thing. It's not it's not it's not like a burden and I think >> Yeah, that's that is true cuz it's not it's never work.

[00:42:41]>> That's the point. Yeah.

[00:42:42]>> So even when you're on holiday like I hate going on holiday and not checking my emails or not, you know, messaging the people back at the office and not staying on top of things. Not because and people are like, "Oh, no. Have a break." I'm like, "That is a break. I'm um it's not like that's diminishing my holiday.

[00:42:59]>> That is >> that's that's that's that's fun. That's what I enjoy doing."

[00:43:03]>> So, we've had a few chats about things.

[00:43:05]We've done a bit of plotting and planning, but in a very informal sense.

[00:43:09]>> Yeah. But again, I think it's it's helpful in that regard. You know, think off-site planning days are a big thing.

[00:43:17]Getting out of the dayto-day of the office when you're doing big strategic thinking is really important. And so flying to St. Lucia is a great [laughter] extreme example of that. And so the fact that we're both removed from the office and in this new environment and and it means that you can have more strategic conversations and again one of the perks family business being able to go on holiday together. Yeah.

[00:43:39]>> Cuz if you don't work with your family might be a bit weird to go on holiday with your leadership team and bring a random bring your MD along on your family holiday is a bit odd. you know, on the off chance you have a strategic insight, but the fact that we have that and, you know, can therefore benefit from it is is a useful thing.

[00:43:56]>> And and we do and there is definitely a benefit, by the way. And we don't this is it's a we probably once once or twice a year we'll come away together, won't we, with uh it's lovely for us now to spend time with Theo, our little grandson, uh for instance, and and we have to bring the parents along to kind of facilitate that. But but it is good.

[00:44:14]You know, I know and I' again most of my kind of big strategic kind of thinking over the last 20 years has all been done out of the dayto-day and um that is true of this trip actually. We a couple of things have come up on this trip and it's been very helpful to kind of bounce them off and and discuss and flurry. So hopefully that's kind of um you know that's quite a hope it's been an interesting episode for you. I guess at this point I appreciate you staying with us. Thank you for doing so. Hopefully it's been it's been useful. We thought it would be interesting to do a little bit special and uh obviously um maybe we'll do one with Elliot um uh at some point in the future.

[00:44:51]>> Yeah. Should we reference the fact that you didn't invite him on the family holiday? [laughter] >> Where is he? Where is he?

[00:44:56]>> He wasn't uninvited.

[00:44:57]>> Should we dig into the the psychology around uh you know which of your two children who work in the business is your favorite? [laughter] >> Is it the one who's on holiday with you now? Is that a given?

[00:45:09]>> Or the one that brings in all the leads?

[00:45:11]>> Gosh. [laughter] Well, we're back next week um back in the studio, back at home with um our missing member of the Business Growth Central team because Elliot will absolutely be back with us next week and uh we hope you will see us then. Thanks for watching this episode of Business Go Central on the road all the way from the beautiful island of St. Lucia. Um enjoy your day. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.

[00:45:33]Bye-bye.

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