'My Senator should listen to his Governor', Heated Exchange between Sakaja & Sifuna during Grilling

[00:00:00]Uh, our county's a city county and your senator normally refers to some of us as rural senators.

[00:00:07]My only concern is the limitations of an acting. I've seen you have CCM acting finance and I think acting county attorney. Could you just tell us because you know for the running and efficiency the county public service board, what is the status so that we know we are the county is running as it should be. Why are you having most of your senior officers as acting?

[00:00:32]>> Thank you chairman member. Although they're just they're not most. Governor can respond.

[00:00:37]>> Sorry, it depends on the way you did your English.

[00:00:40]>> Yes.

[00:00:41]The only acting person here is the county attorney.

[00:00:45]The CC finance is not acting. Once you get a letter from the governor you hold it.

[00:00:50]>> But he said acting.

[00:00:52]>> Yeah, yeah, I'm correcting you.

[00:00:54]Um, the previous holder um, had a legal issue that is being pursued in court and it's something that I really want to bring to the Senate.

[00:01:04]Because the legal holder of the office the previous or rather the previous holder Charles Kerich um, was convicted because of pending bills.

[00:01:14]Chair, the government proceeding act protects public servants from such, you know, conviction. It was not him to pay from his pocket.

[00:01:24]And sometimes there are limitations. But when it comes to county governments our officers are continuously harassed arrest warrants. They are constantly hounded but you never see a permanent secretary in the national government or a cabinet secretary because a CC is equivalent, you know, of a cabinet secretary [clears throat] going through that. That is a special appeal where I will make to the Senate. Um, county attorney is newly appointed and the procedures for approval are underway.

[00:01:52]>> Governor, are you saying you've never seen a national government official facing contempt of court proceedings. Not contempt arrest, Um, arrest warrants for not paying. The warrant comes from contempt because the courts have made decisions that your government has to honor.

[00:02:09]We are a rule of law country. I mean, if the courts have made a decision that a certain amount of money is payable, I am familiar with these cases.

[00:02:17]>> Yes.

[00:02:18]>> You can't excuse the the accounting officer in such an event. What What do you want the Senate to do because we also respect court >> Yes, you can, um, chair, without us going into that as a substantive point.

[00:02:28][clears throat] If a CEC, for instance, is compelled to pay a certain amount that has not been approved by the budget in the county assembly, how does he pay it?

[00:02:37]>> So, what arguments do you have before the the judges there because we we we cannot, uh, excuse someone who's been convicted by a court of law.

[00:02:45]>> asked you to excuse anyone. I'm saying that the context within which county government officers are dealt with vis-à-vis their colleagues in the national government is something that I I've been on both sides. Something that I've seen is not is it is not fair. And we'll be bringing up some such issues.

[00:03:00]Even before any issues of contempt, >> I shall >> there always arrest warrants in counties.

[00:03:06]When we're senators, we were dealing with them. County secretary that time was always in hiding.

[00:03:10]Uh, the county, you know, it's it's a bigger issue that I think the the devolution committee >> Please allow me to finish, Senator Wambo.

[00:03:16]>> Okay.

[00:03:17]>> that the devolution committee needs to hear us out and look at it. That is what I want to propose and I'll bring it later.

[00:03:24]>> It's not about a specific case. It is something continuous on numerous numerous issues, chair.

[00:03:29]>> Senator Wambo.

[00:03:30]>> Uh, chair, um, Governor Sakaja, I'm actually in support of what you're saying.

[00:03:39]And you know, you began by saying that you will bring that matter to the Senate.

[00:03:44]We will sit back and wait for that matter to be brought because, you know what, chair?

[00:03:49]This mistreatment of all governments by the national government does not begin and end with officers of the county governments. It also extends to allocation of resources in the treasury to county governments.

[00:04:05]So, bring that matter, let's deal with it.

[00:04:07]>> Yeah, just as an exit point, governor, just just under 30 seconds.

[00:04:13]Uh then the hypocrisy in your statement is you fired courage based on that legal challenge.

[00:04:21]>> No, he's not been fired. Um he's not holding the position for now.

[00:04:24]>> But you have appointed somebody substantively.

[00:04:28]>> Yeah, we have 10 CCs.

[00:04:30]And uh for you know the one >> So, you moved him to another department.

[00:04:35]>> He is the substantive CC.

[00:04:39]>> Yes, uh because he came here he's not out or he became substantive after I asked.

[00:04:44]>> [laughter] >> Did you hire him on instance?

[00:04:46]>> You know you know it is it is first time to sit before you. Yeah, [laughter] you know sometimes you see it on TV, so he's you know >> Yeah, there there there there is an issue that uh we have to agree on, governor.

[00:04:56]Warrants of arrest only issue if you fail to attend court.

[00:05:00]>> No.

[00:05:01]Yeah.

[00:05:01]>> That's why I want this thing substantively dealt with. We have warrants every week without the issues of attending court.

[00:05:07]>> This is where we we we want to guide you because you you cannot bring matters that are before the courts to the Senate for resolution.

[00:05:13]>> No.

[00:05:14]>> The issue that we want to be clear on, eh?

[00:05:16]Even you have been subject of arrest warrants from the Senate just recently.

[00:05:20]Because you failed to appear. If you appeared before the courts, that is where you make your case because also those courts, they are also Kenyans.

[00:05:29]They understand the challenges that devolved units are going through. We have been through numerous such issues.

[00:05:34]I remember when uh the lawyers were issuing those warrants all the time and it is usually those legal bills and you sit down with some of them, agree on a a payment plan, something you can take to the court.

[00:05:44]>> So, my senator should >> It shouldn't get there.

[00:05:46]>> My senator should listen to his governor.

[00:05:48]>> Why you preempting the issue before I bring it?

[00:05:51]>> We need to look at the entire entire is what you call exercise in futility.

[00:05:59]That's what your senator is warning you against.

[00:06:01]>> But everyone deserves a hearing.

[00:06:02]>> exercise in futility.

[00:06:03]>> Let's talk about >> [laughter] >> Let's hear it.

[00:06:05]>> Let's talk >> Why can't we just move to this this conversation here?

[00:06:12]>> Because you see >> Let's put our mics >> he will. He has not.

[00:06:15]>> bring it up something >> He may not even bring it.

[00:06:17]>> Let's all put our mics off.

[00:06:18]>> But we don't want him to do exercise in futility.

[00:06:20]>> So so why why can't we just let him do what he has to do?

[00:06:23]We go to the serious >> Because at face value it's exercise in futility.

[00:06:26]>> Senate is a house where everybody comes to for relief.

[00:06:31]>> Said you know it.

[00:06:33]>> Let me just let them speak.

[00:06:35]>> Let me just let them >> meeting, please.

[00:06:38]>> Yes, let's just talk in turns.

[00:06:41]Let's just talk in turns. Now let us listen to Senator Wambua.

[00:06:48]You know, me chair, what I'm saying is the governor has said that he will.

[00:06:54]He has not.

[00:06:55]Let's wait for that to happen.

[00:06:58]And if it happens, we will deal with it.

[00:07:01]>> That is saying >> Let's go to the issues here because there are quite a few serious issues here.

[00:07:04]>> Yes.

[00:07:05]>> I would personally want to know whether the the 1 million machine for making chapattis arrived.

[00:07:10]>> Yeah.

[00:07:10]>> No, those are issues that I want to discuss with the chairman, yeah.

[00:07:14]>> Please, let's just talk when you are given my mic. It is possible for you to ask for the mic and I'll give you the mic and you prosecute your case.

[00:07:23]Now, Senator Sifuna, are you asking for the mic?

[00:07:26]>> I have asked.

[00:07:27]>> Please do.

[00:07:28]>> Uh finally, you know I don't know how I can put this. If you go to the wrong forum with a problem expecting resolution, it's it's actually I don't know how I can put it, governor.

[00:07:41]Because we have even in our standing orders, we have the sub judice rule. We can't deal with matters that are before the courts.

[00:07:48]What was giving was guidance. But we will wait for that. I just wanted to know because it's a matter of great concern to me personally because I know Kericho. Are you aware as the government of his physical whereabouts?

[00:07:59]>> Mhm.

[00:07:59]Chair, chair, let me say this. One, we've not come on that matter. I have not said we're bringing substantive issues with respect to court rulings.

[00:08:09]Because the sub judice rule is that if you bring a matter that is currently before court and your hearing of that matter can jeopardize its outcome, that is when you don't discuss it. I'm talking about the government proceedings act.

[00:08:23]And allow me to leave it at that, chair.

[00:08:25]Is it possible, members, that we leave that issue >> He's not answered my question.

[00:08:32]>> and we go to the substantive matters because looking at the time >> I've been asking you to give me a floor.

[00:08:38]You know, you know this is